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PanzerJaeger
08-23-2011, 05:42
Here's (http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/08/19/feeding-the-masses-on-unicorn-ribs/) an interesting opinion piece on the lackluster results the Obama administration's green jobs initiative. Some highlights:


Obama promised to create 5 million green jobs within ten years. Investors’ Business Daily has a list of that plan’s successes so far.



- On his recent jobs tour Obama stopped at a Johnson Controls plant in southern Michigan, which received $300 million in green grants and plans to create a whopping total of 150 jobs, at a cost of $2 million per position.

- Evergreen Solar Inc., which received unknown amounts of green stimulus funds on the hope that it would create “between 90 and 100 jobs” two years ago, filed for bankruptcy this week, $485.6 million in debt. Their Massachusetts plant once employed 800 people; in March it was replaced with a factory in Wuhan, China.

- Green Vehicles, an electric car “maker” in Salinas, California, took $500,000 from the city and almost $200,000 from the state but has failed to produce even one car.

- And as reported earlier on this site, Seattle was one of a handful of cities that received $20 million in federal grants as part of Retrofit Ramp-Up, a program designed to refit houses with more energy efficient materials. Unfortunately, as KOMO4 of Seattle reports, after more than a year “only three homes had been retrofitted and just 14 new jobs have emerged from the program.”


I’ve posted about this failing strategy before; it’s nice to see (h/t Instapundit) that the New York Times has also figured it out that the administration’s green jobs initiative is an embarrassing mess.

As the paper of record reports,



Federal and state efforts to stimulate creation of green jobs have largely failed, government records show. Two years after it was awarded $186 million in federal stimulus money to weatherize drafty homes, California has spent only a little over half that sum and has so far created the equivalent of just 538 full-time jobs in the last quarter…

The Economic Development Department in California reports that $59 million in state, federal and private money dedicated to green jobs training and apprenticeship has led to only 719 job placements — the equivalent of an $82,000 subsidy for each one.


The belief that green jobs would drive a new era of American prosperity was — like the large majority of green policy chat — intellectually incoherent. The goods that drive renewable energy industries, like so much else in this world, are far cheaper to construct in Asia. As the NYT piece describes, SolFocus, a widely-celebrated solar power company based, only has 90 employees at their San Jose headquarters. The solar panels are assembled in China. Whether a product is an ordinary t-shirt or an admirable piece of world saving green technology like a wind turbine has zilch, zero, nada influence on the mind of the manufacturer trying to decide where it should be made.



It’s understandable and even forgivable that a political candidate would talk about green jobs on the hustings, especially when the Democratic Party is divided between job hungry blue collar workers and fastidious greens who break out in hives in the presence of coal. What worries me isn’t that the President’s team advised him to make a few speeches on this subject; if a candidate can’t throw chum to the base now and then what’s the point of having elections? What worries me is that they didn’t understand that making something this bogus a central plank of his actual governing plan on an issue as vital as jobs would have serious costs down the road.

Many liberals want green jobs to exist so badly that they don’t fully grasp how otherworldly and ineffectual this advocacy makes the President look to unemployed meat packers and truck drivers.

Let me put it this way. A GOP candidate might feel a need to please creationist voters and say a few nice things about intelligent design. That is politics as usual; it gins up the base and drive the opposition insane with fury and rage. No harm, really, and no foul.

But if that same politician then proposed to base federal health policy on a hunt for the historical Garden of Eden so that we could replace Medicare by feeding old people on fruit from the Tree of Life, he would have gone from quackery-as-usual to raving incompetence. True, the Tree of Life approach polls well in GOP focus groups: no cuts to Medicare benefits, massive tax savings, no death panels, Biblical values on display. Its only flaw is that there won’t be any magic free fruit that lets us live forever, and sooner or later people will notice that and be unhappy.

Green jobs are the Democratic equivalent of Tree of Life Medicare; they scratch every itch of every important segment of the base and if they actually existed they would be an excellent policy choice. But since they are no more available to solve our jobs problem than the Tree of Life stands ready to make health care affordable, a green jobs policy boils down to a promise to feed the masses on tasty unicorn ribs from the Great Invisible Unicorn Herd that only the greens can see.

Here in particular Senator Obama as he then was would have benefited from a less gushing, more skeptical press. If his first couple of speeches on this topic had been met with the incredulous and even mocking response they deserved, he probably would not have married himself so publicly to so vain and so empty a cause.


So was pumping so much time, money, and effort into the initiative a mistake, or is this just a speedbump on the road to our glorious, green jobs-enabled future?

CrossLOPER
08-23-2011, 19:16
Sound like more of an issue of misappropriated rather than green jobs being impractical. I think this video is applicable.

http://www.theonion.com/video/obama-drastically-scales-back-goals-for-america-af,14343/

Lemur
08-23-2011, 19:24
So was pumping so much time, money, and effort into the initiative a mistake, or is this just a speedbump on the road to our glorious, green jobs-enabled future?
Hard to say. A lot of money was squandered and wasted getting the railroads up and running, and it was all quite scandalous at the time, but it's hard to argue that the government should not have offered grants, prizes and rewards for building out America's infrastructure.

The "green" thing is not a fad. Renewable energy is not going to look silly and dated in ten years. Seriously, I have a relative who has declared that "wind energy is a fad." She's not even joking. I guess from her perspective we will never run out of economically accessible oil and coal, so why bother? I guess if you read "finite" as "infinite" it all makes sense.

I haven't followed the "green jobs initiative," and I'm typing on my lunch break right now, so I can hardly review the materials. But in a general sense: Was this initiative wasted? Possibly. But some of any VC venture will be wasted, and what is investing in start-ups if not VC behavior? And secondly, I don't know that trying to support/grow our renewable energy sector is ever completely wasted.

Centurion1
08-23-2011, 19:32
Hard to say. A lot of money was squandered and wasted getting the railroads up and running, and it was all quite scandalous at the time, but it's hard to argue that the government should not have offered grants, prizes and rewards for building out America's infrastructure.

The "green" thing is not a fad. Renewable energy is not going to look silly and dated in ten years. Seriously, I have a relative who has declared that "wind energy is a fad." She's not even joking. I guess from her perspective we will never run out of economically accessible oil and coal, so why bother? I guess if you read "finite" as "infinite" it all makes sense.

I haven't followed the "green jobs initiative," and I'm typing on my lunch break right now, so I can hardly review the materials. But in a general sense: Was this initiative wasted? Possibly. But some of any VC venture will be wasted, and what is investing in start-ups if not VC behavior? And secondly, I don't know that trying to support/grow our renewable energy sector is ever completely wasted.


.... The governments job is not to participate in VC investment possibilities. Why kind of idiocy would that be.

drone
08-23-2011, 19:49
.... The governments job is not to participate in VC investment possibilities. Why kind of idiocy would that be.
Unless the VC target improves national security.

I'm not saying this program did (seems like it was just an ill-devised handout/pandering scheme), but improving the long term national energy outlook is something the government should be doing.

Papewaio
08-24-2011, 00:42
.... The governments job is not to participate in VC investment possibilities. Why kind of idiocy would that be.

Actually where there is a benefit to the nation it makes sense. I'd argue that NASA is too risk adverse and could do with some venture investor like methods... Look how effective the space x-prize has been.

Actual VC investments would be basic research, government science grants, cure for polio, cure for cancers & first generation of infrastructue investment.

The Internet is essentially the fruit of a VC like investment by the government.

One could argue that Columbus was a VC.

So governments have their place in investing in long shots in the future.

Major Robert Dump
08-24-2011, 05:12
.... The governments job is not to participate in VC investment possibilities. Why kind of idiocy would that be.

The same idiocy that it has been engaging in for a hundred years and more.

You don't actually think all of our oil pipelines, railroads, and airports were built with private funds, do you? And this isn't even considering state/municiplaity subsidies that go to the the likes of large businesses that court special breaks.

Personally, I just see it as the "Green" movements turn to suck the government tit like all the other Washington cronies havebeen doing for generations. Daddy gotta get his.

Banquo's Ghost
08-26-2011, 13:02
It seems to me if one labels these projects as "green" everyone flies off the handle.

If you characterised them as "energy independence" as a strategic objective to save us all having to spend billions maintaining/invading desert nutcases, they'd be wildly (and justifiably) popular.

Vladimir
08-26-2011, 13:07
I'll give you a tour of the "green" bathrooms they installed here. More like "energy incontinence."

Major Robert Dump
08-26-2011, 13:12
I wonder if I could get a tax break for crapping in my back yard? I'm not doing it to save water or make compost, I just get crazy when I'm drunk.

Vladimir
08-26-2011, 13:13
Just don't do it where you eat and you should be fine.

Major Robert Dump
08-26-2011, 18:03
But I want a tax break. I also have 70+ trees on my property, all 150 years old or more, which means I have carbon credits and can legally dump freon and oil in the gutter up the street because it evens out

Seamus Fermanagh
08-27-2011, 22:01
But I want a tax break. I also have 70+ trees on my property, all 150 years old or more, which means I have carbon credits and can legally dump freon and oil in the gutter up the street because it evens out

Actually, that's pretty sadly close to the truth given the current framing of those laws/regulations. If you incorporated yourself, your drunken incontinence might even earn you some kind of "point of light" award or some such.

Hosakawa Tito
08-28-2011, 00:06
Oh come on, give rickshaws a chance.

Papewaio
08-28-2011, 05:42
If you characterised them as "energy independence" as a strategic objective to save us all having to spend billions maintaining/invading desert nutcases, they'd be wildly (and justifiably) popular.

Well the US Navy and Marines have a few working examples of solar and nuclear powered initiatives.

Go green and we'd break the backs of so many oil soaked despots quicker, cheaper and less deadly then invading one after the other.

Xiahou
08-31-2011, 03:15
Hard to say. A lot of money was squandered and wasted getting the railroads up and running, and it was all quite scandalous at the time, but it's hard to argue that the government should not have offered grants, prizes and rewards for building out America's infrastructure.The only transcontinental railroad that didn't go bankrupt was the same one that was built wholly with private money. Coincidence?

Major Robert Dump
08-31-2011, 06:14
But railroads still got the money, and barons still made bank, and bankruptcy killed the company but not the owners and then they moved on to their next grift, right?

Buisness solubility doesn't matter. Everyone else got theirs, why not the green guys? Gather round this tit, everyone!

Lemur
08-31-2011, 14:59
The only transcontinental railroad that didn't go bankrupt was the same one that was built wholly with private money. Coincidence?
Factually accurate, but misleading and incomplete. Of the seven or so transcontinental lines, some of the companies went into liquidation, but some emerged from bankruptcy and continued functioning for a century or so. Union Pacific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Railroad#History), anyone? So yeah, there were bankruptcies, but not all bankruptcies are created equal.

Also, the majority of the infrastructure built during the subsidy days continued to function under one company or another for decades (and some of the lines have functioned for over a century, with repairs and upgrades). So from the U.S.A.'s perspective, it's all a bit irrelevant. We got the infrastructure, so who cares if this company or that was able to survive? As far as the national interest is concerned?

drone
08-31-2011, 23:15
Here's one example of money down the composting toilet:
Solyndra solar company fails after getting controversial federal loan guarantees (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/solyndra-solar-company-fails-after-getting-controversial-federal-loan-guarantees/2011/08/31/gIQAB8IRsJ_story.html)

Solyndra, a California solar company backed by a half-billion dollars in loan guarantees from the Obama administration, on Wednesday announced it was shutting its doors and laying off 1,100 employees.

The unexpected announcement raised questions about whether taxpayers would be responsible for the entire $535 million in loans that the company used to build a Silicon Valley factory. The wisdom of loan guarantees granted to the company by the Obama administration had already been questioned by government auditors and been the target of a subpoena from House Republicans.

The start-up venture has long been an administration favorite, and its Fremont, Calif., factory received visits from both the president and Energy Secretary Steve Chu. Both used their visits to praise the company for creating jobs and leading the way into a new economy fueled by green energy businesses.

The company was backed by venture capital from Tulsa billionaire and Democratic fundraiser George Kaiser. Its political connections had been been criticized by Republicans, who questioned the administration’s focus on the company.

In a press release at noon Wednesday, Solyndra officials said they were suspending operations and planned to seek Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. That will give the company time to evaluate options, including selling the business or licensing its technology to other companies.

Papewaio
09-05-2011, 15:54
Everyone else got theirs, why not the green guys? Gather round this tit, everyone!

One doesn't have to be green to get green subsidies, one only needs to paint the concrete green and make the right sounds.

I'm pretty sure a lot of R&D grants have gone done the drain as little more then tax breaks. If a business man can make a buck out of it and make his glossy brochures sell more I'm sure they are willing to be green or at least pretend to be so.

lars573
09-05-2011, 17:50
Oh come on, give rickshaws a chance.
They've had those in the downtown core for years in the summer, and I've yet to partake. :bow:

Fisherking
09-05-2011, 19:00
They've had those in the downtown core for years in the summer, and I've yet to partake. :bow:

What?

In Halifax they have rickshaws???

Or are you talking about the bicycle version?

Lemur
09-05-2011, 19:09
Or are you talking about the bicycle version?
I thought the bicycle version was also called a "rickshaw." Incorrect?

Fisherking
09-05-2011, 19:39
It may be but I was thinking of the backward wheelbarrow.


:laugh4:

drone
09-08-2011, 17:15
Here's one example of money down the composting toilet:
Solyndra solar company fails after getting controversial federal loan guarantees (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/solyndra-solar-company-fails-after-getting-controversial-federal-loan-guarantees/2011/08/31/gIQAB8IRsJ_story.html)
And today the Feds raided Solyndra (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/feds-execute-search-warrants-at-calif-solar-firm-that-got-535m-us-loan-filed-for-bankruptcy/2011/09/08/gIQAY5GLCK_story.html). I guess this is what happens when you make a fool out of the Prez. Or embezzle taxpayer dollars. But most likely the former.

lars573
09-09-2011, 00:15
What?

In Halifax they have rickshaws???

Or are you talking about the bicycle version?
Yep, the none bike versions. Possibly bike versions too.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Y0s8ZbpK8V0/TFRJ_DtRZXI/AAAAAAAAATg/B4KTaqjD38s/s1600/Halifax+Pride+2010+024.JPG
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRShnP5AC6KzrongsL-fok2T-M33YWcMJhiPlP4GXlxbcGotNtNCg

Noncommunist
09-09-2011, 16:19
Go green and we'd break the backs of so many oil soaked despots quicker, cheaper and less deadly then invading one after the other.

Though wouldn't they also have the chance of being sun soaked despots? Unlike some parts of the US, they probably have blue skies most days.

PanzerJaeger
09-09-2011, 23:30
While I've been busy on the Eastern Front, it's good to see my once-defunct thread has grown some legs. Of course, at this point, I've completely lost interest...

a completely inoffensive name
09-10-2011, 00:14
Imo, there are only a few green technologies that work well enough right now to implement. One of those being solar heating. I forget the term for it, but basically you have your water pipes running through your roof and the sun heats the water for you (they put some paint on it that absorbs as much of the spectrum as possible, I think). In the southwest this would be especially useful. You can take the natural gas water heaters and throw them out and instead save the natural gas as a buffer stage for cars when gasoline starts getting too expensive. Hopefully it will buy enough time for battery technology to get the levels of energy density that consumers want from an electric car. Also I think the solar heating power plants that have been built (where they take hundreds of mirrors and point it at a tower full of water) have shown to be efficient enough to recoup the cost of construction after a few years. Photo-voltaic panels are still too expensive without rebates and electricity on the grid level should be handled by nuclear for the most part. Solar and wind is not constant, and I don't see how you can build a grid that can successfully work with those two sources constituting a large part of electrical generation.

EDIT: Also, I have never found out the stats on geothermal energy, has the US tapped into its geothermal capabilities to a large extent?

Crazed Rabbit
09-12-2011, 02:07
But how will I know which green breakthroughs are real? (http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-03-29/)

Also, I think we all hate the earth a little. (http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2007-06-19/)

CR