So how do *you* learn a language? [Archive]

frogbeastegg

08-25-2011, 13:12

The org's full of multi-linguists. Those of you speaking English as a secondary language are damned good at it, and have always had my respect. So how do you do it?

I want to improve my French. There's a series of books (Les Rois Maudits) which I want to read, and they haven't had a proper English translation. I have copies of the French omnibus editions and a massive French dictionary; with a bit more ability I should be able to begin stumbling my way through them.

My ability is all over the place. I do far better with French that is spoken/written for me than when I need to return it. I did 4 years of pathetic tuition at school and was quite good at it, and reached a point where I could read a fairly simple novel or news report and was able to manage very well when I spent a week in Paris. 12 years later and here I am, some of the ability retained, some lost, and some surprisingly improved. To break it down into the four categories they graded me on in my school days:

Speaking. I can manage some. My main problems are the accent, and getting the words I want. I can recognise and comprehend a reasonably large variety of words, I just can't find the word when I want to use it myself. The accent is purposefully designed (:tongueg:) to give English speakers with a sharp, precise accent like mine trouble. Furthermore, over the years I've lost the feel for how it is meant to sound.

Writing. I can't. At all. The spelling combined with my trouble finding the words ...

Reading. I'm still quite good. Except when I'm entirely stuck. It seems like either I know enough to put together an approximate translation, or I can't understand a single word. For example, I can understand the entire introduction of the first book in Les Rois Maudits, barring a few words which I can guess at. The entire next page, nope.

Listening. About the same as reading, provided the speaker doesn't talk too quickly.

My options are limited. I don't want to learn tourist level French so the cheaper DIY language kits are useless. Most classes in my area are aimed at complete beginners and are too simplistic, the rest are formal courses of study for qualifications. I can't afford to buy one of those non-tourist level DIY language kits, like the Rosetta Stone series. I thought I might take advantage of the enforced multi-lingual games and DVDs we get in the UK, and combine French audio with English subtitles to see what I can absorb. Heh. Turns out that in many cases the English version is delayed for the European translations, which are then not included on our discs.

Any suggestions?

Arjos

08-25-2011, 13:26

Remember some friends, who basically couldn't get a word, becoming quite fluent after a couple of months living in the US...

Simplistic ones are very very boring, but in the end they get the job done, I couldn't stand my english lessons as they were very simple, but I must say they worked...
Listening for me was by far the best way, since I was little my dad got english cartoon network from the satellite and that was it ^^

About the subtitles, avoid the english ones and keep the french ones, it's better to have the brain getting the pronunciation and the proper writing...
Even if you don't get what they are saying it should help improve your reading and writing, maybe even something like the french news with many accents could be the closest to "living" in France...

Drunk Clown

08-25-2011, 14:43

English television and games. That's how I learned English.
When I was twelve, my English was better than most of my classmates who are now 17.

I would recommend English subtitles while watching French Channels/movies etc. Doing so you link the French with the English words.

You could also start watching French news. Their pronunciation is top notch and easy to follow. If you encounter difficult words of which you do not know the meaning, write them down and look them up afterwards.
I'm doing the same thing with German.

LeftEyeNine

08-25-2011, 14:57

At a comparably (to those all over Turkey) young age of 10, I had attained a school known for its intense language education and I owe the basis of English of which, as well as with any language, getting a grip of the grammar was the most crucial part to the education I could acquire in that school.

But when I'm asked about acquiantances or relatives about what to do about improving their children's English skills, I generally reply that a language can not be learned without a teacher (so as to make them abandon any scam kits that claim to teach you some alien language all by yourself at home) and that I had improved my English through playing computer games, watching movies, writing poems (I hid those to the dark corners of my conscious) etc.

Learning a language to me is being able to live by it -not using a couple of phrases or barely being able to understand what you are told partially- hence my thought of it being no different to being a learner of music.

If you don't like it and feel obliged to, you'll never overcome a certain limit. As long as you're in love with a language, you'll always find a way to interact with "her" -just like how you'd behave were it somebody you like.

Bottomline: Being exposed to the language you're eager to learn will find its way into your linguistic capacity.

:bow:

Major Robert Dump

08-25-2011, 15:15

Google translate

Andres

08-25-2011, 15:47

If you want to learn a language, you need to use it. Preferably daily. The best would be to simply go to France for a few months and speak nothing else but French.

Alternatively, if you have a friend whose native tongue is French, then talk to him/her every day or write him/her e-mails on a daily basis.

Another way is to join a few forums in the language of your choice that are related to things that really interest you. Interact with the people there. Force yourself to post regularly and read the replies you get. I learned the basics of French at school, but at leaving school, I wasn't good at speaking it.

I learned that during my job, where about half of the clients speaks only French. You'd be amazed how you can go from basics -> fluently speaking in just a few months.

Reading books is a good way to improve on your knowledge, but if you know only the basics, then I wouldn't recommend reading books. Reading is also pretty passive, you need to use the language yourself if you want to make progress fast.

It takes a certain degree of self-confidence. You need not to be afraid of making a lot of mistakes or even to be confronted with people who don't have a clue what you're saying; allthough most people are very forgiving and helpful if they know you're not a native speaker and will certainly appreciate your efforts, even if they are very clumsy in the beginning.

Kralizec

08-25-2011, 16:10

My English skills are what they are today because of exposure. I have rarely needed to speak English to anyone, but the bulk of all the TV programs, movies and music that I've been exposed to during my life are in English.

In contrast, my German is rather lackluster. While I can generally read German text without too much trouble (though at a slower pace than Dutch or English) I wouldn't be able to write a letter without butchering their language; and I can only manage basic conversations. Since a month or so I've started to read German texts, particulary Der Spiegel. Reading contemporary news is a great way to improve your vocabulary; it's easier than books because you usually already have some knowledge about what you're going to read.

When I was writing my masters' paper for my university study I had to read a number of French sources, and it was terrible (English and German sources as well, but those weren't as much trouble). Last year I tried to brush up on my French because that's where I was heading for a vacation, but almost nothing came from it...

Bonjour. Je te voudrais introduire. Je m'appele Kralizec... :eyebrows:

Fragony

08-25-2011, 16:55

There are these special holidays, part party part school. Don't feel bad about being bad at writing it, French is not easy to learn, the grammar is a nightmare. Being good at English also ain't all that easy by the way, I can read and speak it just fine, but if I consciously try to avoid making any mistakes when writing it I doubt every sentence I write.

edit, your brain is well equiped to learn different language, kids from multilingual parents can distinguish different languages before they can speak any themselves. They just know

Drunk Clown

08-25-2011, 16:58

There are these special holidays, part party part school. Don't feel bad about being bad at writing it, French is not easy to learn, the grammar is a nightmare. Being good at English also ain't all that easy by the way, I can read and speak it just fine, but if I consciously try to avoid making any mistakes when writing it I doubt every sentence I write.
Same goes for me, especially with punctuation. Dutch use a lot more ";" and ",".

frogbeastegg

08-25-2011, 18:32

Some good ideas here :bow:

I shall have to improve a lot before I can attempt any of the ones involving writing. I am incapable of writing in the language at all. I can add the French Total War forum on .com to my internet reading list until I can find some other sites.

After a bit of digging I found a recommendations for RFI's (http://www.rfi.fr/lffr/statiques/accueil_apprendre.asp) radio news channel 'Le journal en français facile' or 'the news in easy French'. Sounds very handy. Getting past the various French version error messages in order to get it to work with WMP12 was educational. I wonder if "cretins American" means what it sounds like? Considering that they were talking about Fox News, possibly it does. :laugh4:

When it comes to languages, I feel that being English is a handicap. Unless we come from a mixed race/culture background, the only other language we are exposed to is American English. When we are supposed to be learning other languages at school it is (or was in my day) done with the tacit understanding that whichever country we go to, many of the locals will speak English. No real effort is put in to impart an understanding. My French lessons consisted of a whole 2 hours per week for 4 years. We only reached important concepts like past and present tenses in the final year.

Bonjour. Je te voudrais introduire. Je m'appele Kralizec...
That's a good example. Seeing it written here I understand precisely what that means, as easily as I understand it in English. Having seen it, I could say it, no doubt horrifically mangling the pronunciation in the process. If you had asked me to say that exact same 'idea' without the written version present I couldn't manage anything more than the most basic form; the middle section would be missing. Ask me to write it without this example to copy from and no chance! I need to copy it letter by letter.

Fragony

08-25-2011, 19:01

Do I really got to point out that Krazelic did it all wrong

Arjos

08-25-2011, 19:04

Is it like:

Good day, I'd like to introduce you (XD), my name is Kralizec? :D

Fragony

08-25-2011, 19:18

Is it like:

Good day, I'd like to introduce you (XD), my name is Kralizec? :D

That but I would just give an apple

'When I was writing my masters' paper for my university study'

His master' (his) paper.

Peasant Phill

08-25-2011, 19:47

On peut commencer à parler en français dans ce fil. Et vous, dame grenouille, vous pouvez répondre aussi en frainçais.

Kralizec

08-25-2011, 20:00

Arjos

08-25-2011, 20:02

French is used to hook up anyway, grammar doesn't matter :D

Viking

08-25-2011, 20:28

Personally, I believe that most of my English abilities do not come from school, I didn't do much of my English home work...yet I often got top grades (unfortunately, the lenght of a text also weighed a lot, not just the command of the language..).

I think that frequently reading online newspapers in French; e.g. Le Monde (http://www.lemonde.fr) with a comprehensive dictionary at your disposal (preferably French-French) would help a lot.

If you play any games regularly, try switching the preferred language to French. I guess that could make you learn many words and formulations in "one sweep", since you will have already have designated different meanings to the various buttons and functions. Same goes for other programs, such as web browsers or even operating systems (though I'll take no blame if turns out to be hard to get it back into English ~;)), depending on how far one is willing to go.

Now, I haven't tried learning a new language for quite some time; so what I wrote above comes from my personal understanding of how I have aquired my English skills. My German is in pretty poor shape, and that is because I never got to work enough with it. English typically meant going straight to the source for more cases than any other language, so I've have a great personal interest in understanding the language well, so I have sort of just been coping with the challenges of going straight to the source - and this leads to me learning a lot of English in the process.

frogbeastegg

08-25-2011, 20:28

On peut commencer à parler en français dans ce fil. Et vous, dame grenouille, vous pouvez répondre aussi en frainçais.
Let's see. Minus any kind of aid, I get: In a bit(?) [I?] will start to speak in French [something]. And you, lady frog, will reply also in French.

Oui? Non?

EDIT: Someone sneaked in while I was attempting my translation!

Thanks for the link to Le Monde, Viking. I hadn't thought to see if they were also online. Of course they are - everyone is.

I think I may have figured out how to switch my DS to French mode. That should then put all of my games into French as well. Got to test it to see. Other games remain difficult; a lot of them don't seem to have language options.

Drunk Clown

08-25-2011, 20:43

More like: We can start speaking French in this thread.

Peasant Phill

08-25-2011, 22:31

Let's see. Minus any kind of aid, I get: In a bit(?) [I?] will start to speak in French [something]. And you, lady frog, will reply also in French.

Oui? Non?

Close

Like Drunk Clown says: We can start speaking French in this thread and you, lady Frog, can reply in French also.

ON can mean we or they. Mostly used when you have no specific group in mind
PEUR from the verb pouvoir, meaning can
FIL literally means thread what fabric is made of. I don't know if there is a beter term relevant to an internet thread.

In a bit translates to dans un instant, dans un moment, ...

I'm sure Louis will point out a huge gramatical mistake somewhere.

Tellos Athenaios

08-26-2011, 00:48

Exercise. Reading and listening come with knowledge of the vocab, and knowledge of the vocab comes from repetition. Repetition in turn leads you to understand the finer distinctions of idiom and grammar, which in turn lead you to master idiomatic expressions more readily. Accent, you're English so we must pity you: the English have a very poor system of sounds which is effectively an impairment in your ability to break up & assemble the words, sounds and muscular movements required to speak and understand pretty much all continental European languages. So you don't get our head start, which means you'll have to apply yourself. Dating someone French or well educated Belgian, might be an answer? ~;) Living in France? Watching Doctor Who in French? (Seriously, that's great fun. Just like how Bond movies improve tenfold by being broadcast on the German networks!)

Tellos Athenaios

08-26-2011, 01:01

ON can mean we or they.

As I understood it, “on” refers to some indistinct collective (i.e. old fashioned use of the word “man”). In Dutch this may be translated literally into “they” (ze), but in English such use would be more commonly translated into a passive. The use of “on” meaning “we”, is of course the common, informal, usage of the word.

Hooahguy

08-26-2011, 02:07

You have to immerse yourself in the language. Be around people who speak it constantly. There is no other way.

Ituralde

08-26-2011, 11:05

Just for the immediate benefit I would recommend, continuing to read the books you have there.
Even, if you don't understand a word for one, two, even three pages, with the basic French skills you have, you should be able to pick up more and more as you go along.
That's how I did it with English in the beginning. I only had my limited school knowledge at age 13, then I started reading the Wheel of Time series in English. I didn't get anyhting from the first ten pages, at least semantically, but I steadily improved. Writing down the words you don't understand and looking them up helps too.

The downside is, that I'm sometimes not able to translate English words into German. I know how and when to use them, but their true meaning escapes me.
As a disclaimer I have to add that after those reading lessons I went for one year to the US and after that I have been reading English books and watching English shows/TV/movies extensively. Not mentioning this forum here. So yeah, immerse yourself in French!

Peasant Phill

08-26-2011, 11:35

... Dating someone French or well educated Belgian, might be an answer? ~;) ...

Funny you should mention that because ...

Just kidding of course.

Moros

08-26-2011, 12:50

frogbeastegg

08-26-2011, 12:54

Thanks for the further suggestions.

I shall attempt to listen to at least an hour of French radio per day, and then either read a chapter of a book, half an hour reading articles on the internet, or spend half an hour of a game or DVD with French text and/or audio. More if I can manage it. I have the most comprehensive of Oxford's English/French dictionaries so there should be few words beyond my grasp provided I can spell them.

I approached my local library about French language books. They have a small collection. If I can't find anything suitable they said they would consider ordering a selection of titles at my request. Woohoo for increased local library funding! I have asked them if they can get French editions of some of the Asterix books. Those comics are the single best thing to come out of France and it will be nice to tackle them in the original form. I already know some of the changes, like Dogmatix = Idefix.

Close

Like Drunk Clown says: We can start speaking French in this thread and you, lady Frog, can reply in French also.

ON can mean we or they. Mostly used when you have no specific group in mind
PEUR from the verb pouvoir, meaning can
FIL literally means thread what fabric is made of. I don't know if there is a beter term relevant to an internet thread.

In a bit translates to dans un instant, dans un moment, ...

I'm sure Louis will point out a huge gramatical mistake somewhere.
I see. Thanks for the breakdown.

The only connection which was coming to mind for fil was Latin, filius ('son'). Obviously incorrect, so I let that one stand as a mystery.

I haven't been introduced to any form of 'we' which isn't 'nous'. Er, I think that's spelled correctly? Time spent with some verb and word tables might be productive for filling these basic gaps in my knowledge.

The 'a bit'/peur I worked out incorrectly based on (excuse horrific spelling) j'ai parle un peut d'Francais aka I speak a bit of French. I don't know how the peut part of that is really spelt, that's my guess based on the sound. It sounds like a very emphasised phonetic pronunciation in English of the letter P.

frogbeastegg

08-26-2011, 12:59

Oui, Phill n' a plus une femme. Et son français est très bon. Il est très capable dans la cuisine aussi, n'est ce pas? Ensuite, il est intelligent et gentil. Et la Belgique, c'est ne pas si loin, en outre il habite a l'ouest. C'est parfait! Seulement, il n'ose pas le proposer.
Let's see, again without any kind of aid ... Yes, Phill [something] a woman. And your French is very good. You are a very good cook as well? Additionally, you are intelligent and gentle. And the Belgian is not [something], and outer [something] [live/house?]. It's perfect! [Something] the proposal.

How did I do?

I could use a dictionary to get the rest but for now I want to see how far I can manage on my own, get a better feel for how my understanding works.

Drunk Clown

08-26-2011, 13:06

j'ai parle un peut d'Francais aka I speak a bit of French. I don't know how the peut part of that is really spelt, that's my guess based on the sound. It sounds like a very emphasised phonetic pronunciation in English of the letter P.

Don't think it's J'ai. I may be wrong but how I remember (being 2-3 years ago I had french class) it's: Je parle un peu (no t) Francais. Don't know about the "de" before francais but I believe it's not d' since the next word starts with an "f".

Fragony

08-26-2011, 13:27

Let's see, again without any kind of aid ... Yes, Phill [something] a woman. And your French is very good. You are a very good cook as well? Additionally, you are intelligent and gentle. And the Belgian is not [something], and outer [something] [live/house?]. It's perfect! [Something] the proposal.

How did I do?

I could use a dictionary to get the rest but for now I want to see how far I can manage on my own, get a better feel for how my understanding works.

You do realise that he's trying to hook you up with Peasant Phil, not that he shouldn't of course

frogbeastegg

08-26-2011, 13:35

Don't think it's J'ai. I may be wrong but how I remember (being 2-3 years ago I had french class) it's: Je parle un peu (no t) Francais. Don't know about the "de" before francais but I believe it's not d' since the next word starts with an "f".
Yes, that looks considerably closer to what I meant. I really do have no ability to write in French :sweatdrop:

The dictionary says that J'ai means I have and Je is just I. So I suppose my version works in a mangled, literal translation from English kind of way. "I have speak a bit of French."

The whole mass of variations on 'I, you, he, she, we, the' gave me such a headache at school. I could never completely grasp which version worked when and how. Polite, informal, masculine, feminine, past, present, future ... Tu and vous in the present tense was the only part I felt I had grasped with any degree of firmness.

You do realise that he's trying to hook you up with Peasant Phil, not that he shouldn't of course
Using his efforts for a bit of practice means that they aren't entirely wasted :gring:

Fragony

08-26-2011, 13:54

There is a desrinction, you either say 'tu' or 'vous', we also have it in Dutch. It is how you adress someone. Young or old, young 'tu' and old 'vous'

Go to France, much despite of what everyone says, the French are really nice

Arjos

08-26-2011, 13:59

I don't know if it's an age related form, always seen it as a formal vs cordial choice...

frogbeastegg

08-26-2011, 14:13

I was taught that it is polite versus informal. Tu is for friends, vous is for everyone else.

I enjoyed my visit to Paris during my teenage years. It is one of only two large cities which I did not hate. The other is Edinburgh, for similar reasons. Nice and clean, spacious, plenty of things which interested me, a good sense of history, and the people were pleasant. Presently I cannot afford a holiday, nor will I be able to in the near future.

Arjos

08-26-2011, 14:15

Yes as you said it, I was in "advanced" and forgot Fragony's order :P

Fragony

08-26-2011, 14:23

I don't know if it's an age related form, always seen it as a formal vs cordial choice...

No it really isn't, it's politeness. In English there is no such thing, but in Dutch it's jij or u, in German it is du or sie. Iin French tu or vous

Drunk Clown

08-26-2011, 16:59

Yeah, you weirdos always use you.

Peasant Phill

08-26-2011, 23:57

Words are easy to learn, they're just a dictionary away. It's the grammar with all those exceptions. wait until you get to the subjonctif.
Oh and trying to assimilate the right accent. I talk with french people every day and I still can't manage the rolling R.

Let's see, again without any kind of aid ... Yes, Phill [something] a woman. And your French is very good. You are a very good cook as well? Additionally, you are intelligent and gentle. And the Belgian is not [something], and outer [something] [live/house?]. It's perfect! [Something] the proposal.

How did I do?

Well enough. You get the gist of the sentences.

n'a plus = doesn't have anymore. ne+verb+plus = not ... anymore (and than 'ne' is shortened because it is followed by a vowel or a soundless h)
son = his (mon/ma/mes, ton/ta/tes, son/sa/ses, ...)
loin = far (away) => cen'est pas si loin = it isn't that far
en outre = besides
habituer = living somewhere
l'ouest = the west
Il n'ose pas proposer = he doesn't dare to propose (probably not the best word) it.

Using his efforts for a bit of practice means that they aren't entirely wasted
Et pour moi, ce n'est que bénificiel. Il me faut d'execice aussi.

Oh and I got the best line when your talking to a french speaker and you want to make clear that your french isn't that good:
Excuser moi, mais je parle le français comme une vache espagnole.

Drunk Clown

08-27-2011, 01:00

Just say: "Voulez vous coucher avec moi?" Every time you talk to a Frenchman .
Then it's certainly clear you suck at the language. Believe me it works, I did it numeral (damn, is numeral correct?) times. And it "breaks" the ice.

Moros

08-27-2011, 02:09

Was oser actually the best word to use, I wasn't really sure myself? Je suis faible en langues. Surtout le grammaire. Moi, je pense que l'orthographe en français n'est pas facile. Tous ces -e, es au fin des mots et autres choses comme ça. Je vraiment manque la sens de la méticulosité.

Peasant Phill

08-27-2011, 09:30

As far as I know, there was nothing wrong with the use of 'oser' in that sentence.

I'm still expecting Louis to post in this thread and put all us posers in our place.

frogbeastegg

08-27-2011, 11:23

Someone stole the French copies of Asterix from my county's library system! Gah! None are left to borrow. The current supplier's catalogue doesn't have them available for purchase so they can't replace them. Double gah! Remaining choices include such easy works as an unabridged translation of 'War & Peace', a book which is hard going in English thanks to all of the Russian names, and Les Miserables. Triple gah! I need something at a simpler level than that to begin with.

After three days of listening to RFI I am noticing that for the first five or ten minutes it's so much speedy gabble with the odd word I can pick out. Suddenly it all seems to slow down and I can tell where all the individual words are, and make sense of a lot more. I do dislike their sport commentator - he talks twice as quickly as everyone else!

Words are easy to learn, they're just a dictionary away.
In that case I envy you. I always struggle to learn words that way.

Time for more translation without a dictionary. I'm finding it stimulates the memory, although I can't say where most of this comes from because my education certainly didn't go anywhere near this kind of usage and vocabulary, obsessed as it was with phoning hotels to ask for a room and ordering a roast chicken dinner. (Why was it always roast chicken?)

Et pour moi, ce n'est que bénificiel. Il me faut d'execice aussi.
And for me, it's beneficial. I could also use the practice. (I'm tempted to make that a negative because of the n'est which I recall my French teacher endlessly going on about as being paired with pas to turn something into a negative. N'est [word/concept] pas.)

Excuser moi, mais je parle le français comme une vache espagnole.
This one strongly tempts me to break out the dictionary because surely it isn't
Excuse me, I speak French like a Spanish cow.

Just say: "Voulez vous coucher avec moi?" Every time you talk to a Frenchman.
I don't intend to ask random strangers to sleep with me, thanks.

Je suis faible en langues. Surtout le grammaire. Moi, je pense que l'orthographe en français n'est pas facile. Tous ces -e, es au fin des mots et autres choses comme ça. Je vraiment manque la sens de la méticulosité.
That's a tough one. I am [something] languages. Too much(?) grammar. Me, I think [something] writing(?) in French is not easy. [no idea at all!] also choices(?) begin(?!). It's true [something] without being meticulous(?).

Jakkal

08-27-2011, 12:48

Drunk Clown

08-27-2011, 13:07

Choses are things.

Moros

08-27-2011, 14:43

And for me, it's beneficial. I could also use the practice. (I'm tempted to make that a negative because of the n'est which I recall my French teacher endlessly going on about as being paired with pas to turn something into a negative. N'est [word/concept] pas.)

Ne .... pas is indeed not. Ne indeed signals a denial/negative. But the real meaning is always added by the word that follows it.
An other example is ne .... plus. Plus however makes it mean not anymore. There are quite few of these constructions possible.
Ne ... que however means. Anything but/only... So n'est que béneficiel. Means It's anything but beneficial.

See here for a list: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/adverb_negative_2.htm

Il faut often followed by "que" and another sentence, means I have to. For example Il faut que je parte. Which means I have to go.

Hence the translation is: And for me, it's only beneficial. I have to excercise [it] as well.

This one strongly tempts me to break out the dictionary because surely it isn't
Excuse me, I speak French like a Spanish cow.

I don't intend to ask random strangers to sleep with me, thanks.
Quite correct.

That's a tough one. I am [something] languages. Too much(?) grammar. Me, I think [something] writing(?) in French is not easy. [no idea at all!] also choices(?) begin(?!). It's true [something] without being meticulous(?).
"être faible en quelque chose" or "être fort en quelque chose" litterally means being weak (hence bad) at, being strong (hence good) at something. For example: Newton était fort en maths. (était is the simple past of être). Surtout means especially. L'orthographe means spelling. Tous ces means all those. Ce/Cette means that. Cette of course is used for feminine words. When plural an 's' is added at the end of both. Choses is things/stuff. Comme means (a)like. For example: Il a le nez comme une fraise. Litt. means He's got a nose like a strawberry. Comme ça means like that. C'est vrai means it's true. Adding -ment makes it an adverb so c'est vraiment..., means it truely/really is. So Je vraiment manque... Means: I really miss/don't have ...

@Jakkal: you're not really making it easy for her.

frogbeastegg

08-27-2011, 14:44

Dear Frogbeastegg,

Merci pour l'excellent travail et le dévouement dont vous avez fait preuve lors de la création de vos différents guides pour la série TW. Vos guides, bien que découvert récemment, sont devenus une source d'information incontournable tout en étant un réel plaisir à lire. Dans cet ordre d'idée, si je puis vous être d'une quelconque utilité dans votre présente quête, ce sera avec honneur et humilité qu'il me fera plaisir de vous aider. La langue de Molière est belle et riche mais aussi complexe. Les Misérables comme livre d'apprentissage est un projet ambitieux, me rappelant mes propres tentatives d'apprendre l'anglais via Romance of the three kingdoms puisque j'étais un fan de la série. En ce qui concerne la prononciation plusieurs sites offrent des programmes qui vous permettront de pratiquer cet aspect, mais rien ne vaut la discussion mano to mano pour obtenir une rétroaction efficace et immediate.
:bow:

First, a translation without aid. I have left this quite literal instead of cleaning it up so it's grammatically correct in English.

Thank you for the excellent work and [something] of your different TW series guides. Your guides, good [something], are [something] a source of information [something] and a real pleasure to read. [quite a bit I don't know here] in your present quest, [something] honour and [humble?] [something] pleasure to help you. The language of Moliere is beautiful and rich but also complex. Les Miserables is a book [something] and an ambitious project, [something] English via The Romance of the Three Kingdoms [something] a fan of that series. [And on?] concerning the pronunciation lots of sites offer programs which you [something] and practice that aspect, [something] discuss man to man to obtain a reaction [effective?] and immediate.

Here's a second attempt made with the aid of a dictionary and a tiny bit of google translate on two areas where I was struggling to find understanding. I have cleaned the final text up a bit to make it less literal. It took me half an hour but I'm pleased with the result. Hopefully it's not too inaccurate.

Thank you for the excellent work and commitment of your different TW series guides. Your guides, good and recently discovered [alternative: open-handed, as in 'for free'], have become a source of information considered essential anything in [all I can find for etant is a reference to 'sprawling'] and a true pleasure to read. If I can be of any assistance in your present quest, it would be my pleasure [honour?] to help. The language of Moliere is beautiful and rich but also complex. Les Miserables is an ambitious book to learn with, remembering my attempts to learn English with The Romance of the Three Kingdoms as I was a fan of the series. For pronunciation lots of sites offer programs with which you can practise, but nothing is better than speaking man to man to obtain effective and immediate feedback.

J'adore la trois royaume! J'ai aime la jouer d'ordinateur 'Dynasty Warriors 3' pour la Playstation 2. J'ai lire la livre plus tard. J'ai aime Liu Bei. Il est un homme gentile et honneur, et tres persistante. Lu Bu est formidable! Il est tres forte a guerre.

I needed a dictionary for honour, kingdoms, persistent, later and formidable. Should anyone wish to correct the spelling and grammar, please go ahead. If I could grasp the necessary words I would have said "I was first introduced to it by the computer game 'Dynasty Warriors 3' on the Playstation 2" instead of the "I liked". When I started this thread I couldn't have managed to write half of what I just did.

I shall send you a PM.

frogbeastegg

08-27-2011, 15:00

Another post which sneaked in!

Ne .... pas is indeed not. Ne indeed signals a denial/negative. But the real meaning is always added by the word that follows it.
An other example is ne .... plus. Plus however makes it mean not anymore. There are quite few of these constructions possible.
Ne ... que however means. Anything but/only... So n'est que béneficiel. Means It's anything but beneficial.

See here for a list: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/adverb_negative_2.htm

Il faut often followed by "que" and another sentence, means I have to. For example Il faut que je parte. Which means I have to go.

Hence the translation is: And for me, it's only beneficial. I have to excercise [it] as well.
I see. I need to work with the concept to understand it better, but it's nice to know my current basic idea is not too far from the mark.

Ne ... plus/pas/que should be helpful if I can learn to apply them. When combined with basic words they open up a new range of concepts. It's a step away from being stuck with like, love, and hate, as I am at the moment.

Quite correct.
:laugh4: That's almost as good as RFI and their cretins Americans dans Fox News (spelling and grammar?)!

"être faible en quelque chose" or "être fort en quelque chose" litterally means being weak (hence bad) at, being strong (hence good) at something. For example: Newton était fort en maths. (était is the simple past of être). Surtout means especially. L'orthographe means spelling. Tous ces means all those. Ce/Cette means that. Cette of course is used for feminine words. When plural an 's' is added at the end of both. Choses is things/stuff. Comme means (a)like. For example: Il a le nez comme une fraise. Litt. means He's got a nose like a strawberry. Comme ça means like that. C'est vrai means it's true. Adding -ment makes it an adverb so c'est vraiment..., means it truely/really is. So Je vraiment manque... Means: I really miss/don't have ...
Ah, so that's the word I have been trying to remember for ages! I was taught certain words in pairs. I have remembered forte without problem. I could not remember what went with it to make weak/strong.

Yes ... yes, most of that makes sense. It's the different tenses and word modifications which are tripping me up so badly, when combined with unfamiliar words. That's not unexpected. When it is broken down like that it does make sense.

Thank you :bow:

Tellos Athenaios

08-27-2011, 15:29

Well here is how I rendered Jakkal fairly literally in English (this is not an attempt at translating it into proper English, more at something which you can see how the French works without reading the French):

Thanks for the excellent work and the commitment of which [dont] you have given [vous avez fait] proof [preuve] (ever) since [lors] the creation of your various guides for the TW series. Your guides, even though [bien que, literally “good as”] recently discovered (i.e. even though I only discovered them recently), have (already) become [sont devenues] an incomparable source of information while [tout en, literally: all the while] being a real pleasure to read. In this vein [dans cet ordre d'idée], if I can be of any use to you at all [any at all comes from: de quelconque] during [dans] your current effort [quête, literally quest/search] it will be with honour and humility that [qu'] it will be my pleasure [il fera ma plaisir] to help you. The language of Molière is beautiful and rich, but also complex. Les Misérables as learning book reminds me of [me rappelant] my own attempts to learn [d'apprendre] English via Romance of the three Kingdoms since I was a fan of the series. Where it concerns [en ce qui concerne] the pronunciation, lots of sites offer programs which [qui] allow you to practice this aspect, but nothing [rien] beats (surpasses) [vauts] a discussion [la discussion, literally the discussion but English simply doesn't work that way] “mano a mano” for obtaining effective and immediate feedback.

Beskar

08-27-2011, 15:35

Date some one who speaks the language.

(More of a self-joke, I have barely passable Greek language skills which I learnt when I was dating a Greek girl. )

Peasant Phill

08-27-2011, 16:04

J'adore la trois royaume! J'ai aime la jouer d'ordinateur 'Dynasty Warriors 3' pour la Playstation 2. J'ai lire la livre plus tard. J'ai aime Liu Bei. Il est un homme gentile et honneur, et tres persistante. Lu Bu est formidable! Il est tres forte a guerre.

I needed a dictionary for honour, kingdoms, persistent, later and formidable. Should anyone wish to correct the spelling and grammar, please go ahead. If I could grasp the necessary words I would have said "I was first introduced to it by the computer game 'Dynasty Warriors 3' on the Playstation 2" instead of the "I liked". When I started this thread I couldn't have managed to write half of what I just did.

I shall send you a PM.

A few gramatical mistakes but overal quite good. I'll leave this to Jakkal. Better not to chime in on other peoples exercises.

English classes were my favorite in High school. I can still recite certain poems by heart. So I prepared you a bit of homework I hope you'll love (and thus learn easier).

Watch this video from 2:50 onwards and try to translate. The (lose) English translation is sung in the beginning. See if you get it right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RYy_8u4blk

Here's the text if you want to do it by written text.
Les Allemands e'taient chez moi,
ils me dirent, "Signe toi,"
mais je n'ai pas peur;
j'ai repris mon arme.

J'ai change' cent fois de nom,
j'ai perdu femme et enfants
mais j'ai tant d'amis;
j'ai la France entie`re.

Un vieil homme dans un grenier
pour la nuit nous a cache',
les Allemands l'ont pris;
il est mort sans surprise.

As a second exercise, try to grasp the meaning of this song. No full translation required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JJRN_GFd4

Lyrics:
VOIR UN AMI PLEURER
(F. Rauber / J. Brel)

Jacques Brel (Belgium) - 1977

Bien sûr il y a les guerres d'Irlande
Et les peuplades sans musique
Bien sûr tout ce manque de tendres
Il n'y a plus d'Amérique
Bien sûr l'argent n'a pas d'odeur
Mais pas d'odeur me monte au nez
Bien sûr on marche sur les fleurs
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr il y a nos défaites
Et puis la mort qui est tout au bout
Nos corps inclinent déjà la tête
Étonnés d'être encore debout
Bien sûr les femmes infidèles
Et les oiseaux assassinés
Bien sûr nos cœurs perdent leurs ailes
Mais mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr ces villes épuisées
Par ces enfants de cinquante ans
Notre impuissance à les aider
Et nos amours qui ont mal aux dents
Bien sûr le temps qui va trop vite
Ces métro remplis de noyés
La vérité qui nous évite
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr nos miroirs sont intègres
Ni le courage d'être juifs
Ni l'élégance d'être nègres
On se croit mèche on n'est que suif
Et tous ces hommes qui sont nos frères
Tellement qu'on n'est plus étonnés
Que par amour ils nous lacèrent
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

If anyone wants to join in on this 'lesson' just post your answers under spoilers so that others can still give their answer.

Jakkal

08-28-2011, 00:02

Jakkal

08-28-2011, 00:16

Peasant Phill,

Sois à l'aise de fournir ton assistance, le but est commun et en aucun temps je ne puis prétendre à la maitrise du français.

Cette idée d'y aller avec les chansons est excellente!!

Moros

08-28-2011, 00:56

Milady,

Votre traduction initiale est excellente! Comme vous possédez déjà la compréhension du texte, au fur et à mesure que votre vocabulaire s'enrichira, les blancs seront relegués au passé. Je vous suggère d'utiliser l'outil de traduction Google avec parcimonie car la traduction ainsi obtenue n'est pas toujours exacte d'un point de vue de structure et de syntaxe.

J'adore la (les) trois royaume(s)( il s'agit de l'utilisation du pluriel)! J'ai aime (é) (conjugaison du verbe au passé) la jouer d'ordinateur 'Dynasty Warriors 3' pour la Playstation 2. J'ai lire(lu) (conjugaison du verbe au passé) la (le) (l'utilisation du masculin - le- est lié livre , un livre, le livre) livre plus tard. J'ai aime (é) (conjugaison du verbe au passé) Liu Bei. Il est un homme gentile (gentil est masculin et gentille est féminin) et honneur (l'adjectif précis est honorable), et tres (très) persistante (obstiné pourrait être une meilleure option). Lu Bu est formidable! Il est tres (très) forte (fort pour le genre masculin, forte est pour le genre féminin) a (à la) guerre.

Lu Bu était toujours un objectif pour moi afin qu'il joigne mon clan. Sa puissance était telle qu'il pouvait changer le cours d'une bataille à lui seul. Je dois avouer que je n'ai pas terminé la lecture du livre de Romance of the three kingdoms, devant à la fois comprendre la signification des mots et de l'histoire dans un fil ou plusieurs personnages interviennent au sein d'une traduction du mandarin (ou cantonais?) Dans un autre d'idée, j'ai tenté de m'attaquer au Silmarillon de Tolkien, mais, encore une fois, beaucoup de noms et d'arbres généalogiques.

"I was first introduced to it by the computer game 'Dynasty Warriors 3' on the Playstation 2"

La traduction aurait pu ce lire comme suit:

J'ai été initié à ce dernier par le jeu Dynasty Warrior 3 sur la Playstation 3

Votre connaissance du français est vraiment très bonne. C'est en forgeant que l'on devient forgeron! Avec l'aide que vous recevez via ce thread (fil ou flux?) ce n'est qu'une question de temps avant que vous ne puissiez vous attaquer aux Misérables.

La nuit vient lentement nous enlacer de son mateau et sur ce, je vous souhaite une bonne soirée et demeure à votre disponibilité.
Perhaps one should explain the difference and conjugation of the passé composé and l'imparfait?

L'imparfait is similar to the simple past in English. For example she was nice, would be elle était gentille. Note that truely a lot of these verbs have irregular forms. However the conjugations/endings are pretty recongisable. The "Passé simple" which sounds as if it is the same tense as the simple past however is actually more similar to the past perfect but only used in very formal or archiac and written french. For the present perfect one uses the passé composé. Which means we use either avoir (to have) or être (to be) in combination with a verb. Again there are quite the exceptions. But again they are very recognisable due to them always being accompanied by a simple present form of être and avoir. The main verb itself most of the times end with "é". Sometimes in irregular verbs it can end on a different vowel, or not a vowel at all. Some examples. I have arrived would be 'Je suis arrivé'. I have won would be 'J'ai gagné'. An example of an irregular verb could be 'lire' which means to read: I have read that book would be 'J'ai lu ce livre'. I have made my homework would be 'J'ai fait (<Faire) mes devoirs'.

But perhaps some links are better idea, as I'm not good at explaining these kinds of things:
The imperfect in short: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/imperfect.htm
The passé composé in short: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/passecompose.htm

Or perhaps some youtube lessons will give you a better idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq0JplSWp6Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNWnr_zd4Pw

While you might not want to learn how to conjugate them correctly, I think it's best to learn to recognise them as both are very often used. Comprehension was you main goal anyway. Those exercises of Phill seem a good way to go. But I tought recognising the two most commonly used past tenses would be of some importance as well.

frogbeastegg

08-28-2011, 12:15

I accept the various translation challenges! As this is a Bank Holiday weekend, I'm spending most of today and tomorrow with my boyfriend. I'll begin to tackle the translation on Tuesday.

So I keep using the feminine forms? That's vaguely reassuring; I'm less likely to accidentally refer to myself as a man.

Jakkal, thanks for the corrections. I've read through them once quickly, and shall return to read them in detail on Tuesday. I shall attempt a proper reply then.

Moros, that explanation is very helpful. As with the corrections, I've read it once and will read it a second time. After a couple of weeks of this style of practice I do intend to sit down and start looking specifically at masculine/feminine, tenses, and so on. I think I will find that study easier if I am a bit more 'awake' to the language first. If I feel like there is some meaning and sense to the words they are more likely to stick - I hope. Looking at forms of words in isolation (like your examples) is definitely something I don't mind doing now, as the relevance of the examples helps.

Peasant Phill

08-28-2011, 13:29

frogbeastegg

08-31-2011, 15:46

Later than expected, here's what I managed. It took me a while, and I was quite busy yesterday which did not help.

The songs are very difficult. Lots of unfamiliar words, and the structure is different to normal text. This is what I managed without help:

Les Allemands e'taient chez moi,
ils me dirent, "Signe toi,"
mais je n'ai pas peur;
j'ai repris mon arme.

J'ai change' cent fois de nom,
j'ai perdu femme et enfants
mais j'ai tant d'amis;
j'ai la France entie`re.

Un vieil homme dans un grenier
pour la nuit nous a cache',
les Allemands l'ont pris;
il est mort sans surprise.

The Germans [...] with me
I say "Sign"
I am not afraid
I take my weapon

I change [...] name
I [...] women and children
[...] friends
I [...] all of France

[...] man with a [...]
for the night we [...]
the Germans [...] [prize?]
he is death (or died?) without surprise

Bien sûr il y a les guerres d'Irlande
Et les peuplades sans musique
Bien sûr tout ce manque de tendres
Il n'y a plus d'Amérique
Bien sûr l'argent n'a pas d'odeur
Mais pas d'odeur me monte au nez
Bien sûr on marche sur les fleurs
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr il y a nos défaites
Et puis la mort qui est tout au bout
Nos corps inclinent déjà la tête
Étonnés d'être encore debout
Bien sûr les femmes infidèles
Et les oiseaux assassinés
Bien sûr nos cœurs perdent leurs ailes
Mais mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr ces villes épuisées
Par ces enfants de cinquante ans
Notre impuissance à les aider
Et nos amours qui ont mal aux dents
Bien sûr le temps qui va trop vite
Ces métro remplis de noyés
La vérité qui nous évite
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

Bien sûr nos miroirs sont intègres
Ni le courage d'être juifs
Ni l'élégance d'être nègres
On se croit mèche on n'est que suif
Et tous ces hommes qui sont nos frères
Tellement qu'on n'est plus étonnés
Que par amour ils nous lacèrent
Mais voir un ami pleurer!

Good [...] the wars in Ireland
and the [people?] without music
Good [...]
No more Americans
Good [something] gold has no [scent? Order?]
[but?] [...]
good [...] march [beneath?] the flowers
[...] see a friend [...]

Good [...]
And lots of death [all about?]
[...] again [...]
Good [...] infidel women
and the [...] assassins
good [...] hearts [...] (I remember ailes from somewhere and I can't put my finger on it)
[...]

Good [...] villages (villagers?) [...]
For children of 50 years
our [...] to help
[...] love [...] [teeth?]
Good [...] the weather changes quickly / seasons change quickly?
[...]
The truth [...]
[...]

Good [...] mirror of integrity?
Not the courage of [...]
Not the elegance of [...]
[...]
[...] men are all brothers?
[...]
[...]
[...]

I haven't posted the versions I made after looking words up. Since there was so much I didn't get it felt like cheating to claim those versions as my work.

The biggest error is bien = of course. I was remembering the school phrase Oui, sa va bien = yes, I'm good, where good is used in the English-American sense of well, happy, healthy, etc.

I also notice that the version of 'temps' which I remember from school increasingly makes little sense. I was taught that meant the weather, and we spent a lot of those years being forced to repeatedly go through common weather phrases (Il faite mouvais, il faite foid, il faite chaud - I can't remember the spelling at all!). Now it appears to be either seasons or time. Dictionary visit pending ...

Then the general conversation. I haven't had time to use a dictionary to start checking unknown words, so these are purely my own resources.

Votre traduction initiale est excellente! Comme vous possédez déjà la compréhension du texte, au fur et à mesure que votre vocabulaire s'enrichira, les blancs seront relegués au passé. Je vous suggère d'utiliser l'outil de traduction Google avec parcimonie car la traduction ainsi obtenue n'est pas toujours exacte d'un point de vue de structure et de syntaxe.
Your initial translation is excellent! You possess also the comprehension of text, [...] your vocabulary is enriched, the white [...]. I suggest utilising google translation [I would guess sparingly or parsimoniously] [...] the translation [...] not always exact on structure and syntax.

Lu Bu était toujours un objectif pour moi afin qu'il joigne mon clan. Sa puissance était telle qu'il pouvait changer le cours d'une bataille à lui seul. Je dois avouer que je n'ai pas terminé la lecture du livre de Romance of the three kingdoms, devant à la fois comprendre la signification des mots et de l'histoire dans un fil ou plusieurs personnages interviennent au sein d'une traduction du mandarin (ou cantonais?) Dans un autre d'idée, j'ai tenté de m'attaquer au Silmarillon de Tolkien, mais, encore une fois, beaucoup de noms et d'arbres généalogiques.
I struggle write badly with this one. I can get words here and there, and in a few places enough words to make a partial sentence.

The part I understand best is the last line: Silmarillion of Tolkien [with?], again [...], lots of names and family trees.

Votre connaissance du français est vraiment très bonne. C'est en forgeant que l'on devient forgeron! Avec l'aide que vous recevez via ce thread (fil ou flux?) ce n'est qu'une question de temps avant que vous ne puissiez vous attaquer aux Misérables.
Your understanding of French is true(accurate?) and good. [...]. With help you are receiving in this thread [...] question of [time?] before you attack 'Les Miserables'.

La nuit vient lentement nous enlacer de son mateau et sur ce, je vous souhaite une bonne soirée et demeure à votre disponibilité.
I don't manage very well with this one. I can recognise "the night" and "good evening".

Sois à l'aise de fournir ton assistance, le but est commun et en aucun temps je ne puis prétendre à la maitrise du français.
With this one I feel I am being guided by English words which sound similar, and possibly being mislead by them.
[...] assistance, the [...] is common and is [...] [there's temps again] I do not pretend to be a master of French.

Cette idée d'y aller avec les chansons est excellente!!
This idea [of yours?] with the songs is excellent!

Peasant Phill

08-31-2011, 23:23

You did reasonably well. I have absolutly no idea of the level of Fench taught in England but it appears you would be able to get around in a French speaking region.

I haven't posted the versions I made after looking words up. Since there was so much I didn't get it felt like cheating to claim those versions as my work.

Looking up words isn't cheating. You still need to tie those words together in meaningful sentences. You can't be expected to just instantly know a word or a turn of phrase.

Les Allemands e'taient chez moi,
j'ai perdu femme et enfants
j'ai la France entie`re.
The Germans [...] with me
I [...] women and children
I [...] all of France

It appears you have some trouble recognizing which verb is being conjugated. Not surprising really, There are a lot of rules and a lot more exceptions to those rules. être (http://www.ortholud.com/conjugaison/verbes/etre.php) and avoir (http://www.ortholud.com/conjugaison/verbes/avoir.php) are the most important and you should at least know of there conjugations if you want to have an easier time understanding French. There's a reason we were drilled in their conjugations.

It's great that you tried to translate 'Voir un ami pleurer' but I realize that it's a really difficult text. I've looked around the net for a good English translation and I've found not a single one that didn't make blatant mistakes. I just wanted to see if you could extract the meaning out of this song. It's a test of undertanding and not just translating word for word. What is he actually saying? What's at the core of this song? It's possible to say this in one sentence.

The biggest error is bien = of course. I was remembering the school phrase Oui, sa va bien = yes, I'm good, where good is used in the English-American sense of well, happy, healthy, etc.
Bien sûr = of course, not just bien. It's an often used expression.

I also notice that the version of 'temps' which I remember from school increasingly makes little sense. I was taught that meant the weather, and we spent a lot of those years being forced to repeatedly go through common weather phrases (Il faite mouvais, il faite foid, il faite chaud - I can't remember the spelling at all!). Now it appears to be either seasons or time. Dictionary visit pending ...
Well, temps can mean time or weather, seasons are seasons (it's remarkable how much French and English look alike, I wonder if it's someting historical :laugh4:). Damn those words with multiple meanings. And I can't help it: its il fait_ mauvais, il fait_ froid et il fait_ chaud.

As promised, the new exercise. I'll stick to Jacques Brel because ... well I just like to see him perform (and I hope like his performance too).
Listen to the song, go over the text and see how much you understand. Focus specially on the verbs and what their basic form would be. And in doubt, just think of the English words that resembles it the closest.
Again it's not necessary to make a full translation, just see how many sentences you understand even if they have holes in them. For comparison, you can find the translation below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz6r0TP4FBI
The text.
Ne me quitte pas
Il faut oublier
Tout peut s'oublier
Qui s'enfuit déjà
Oublier le temps
Des malentendus
Et le temps perdu
A savoir comment
Oublier ces heures
Qui tuaient parfois
A coups de pourquoi
Le coeur du bonheur
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas

Moi je t'offrirai
Des perles de pluie
Venues de pays
Où il ne pleut pas
Je creuserai la terre
Jusqu'après ma mort
Pour couvrir ton corps
D'or et de lumière
Je ferai un domaine
Où l'amour sera roi
Où l'amour sera loi
Où tu seras reine
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas

Ne me quitte pas
Je t'inventerai
Des mots insensés
Que tu comprendras
Je te parlerai
De ces amants-là
Qui ont vu deux fois
Leurs coeurs s'embraser
Je te raconterai
L'histoire de ce roi
Mort de n'avoir pas
Pu te rencontrer
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas

On a vu souvent
Rejaillir le feu
D'un ancien volcan
Qu'on croyait trop vieux
Il est paraît-il
Des terres brûlées
Donnant plus de blé
Qu'un meilleur avril
Et quand vient le soir
Pour qu'un ciel flamboie
Le rouge et le noir
Ne s'épousent-ils pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas

Ne me quitte pas
Je ne vais plus pleurer
Je ne vais plus parler
Je me cacherai là
A te regarder
Danser et sourire
Et à t'écouter
Chanter et puis rire
Laisse-moi devenir
L'ombre de ton ombre
L'ombre de ta main
L'ombre de ton chien
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas
Ne me quitte pas.

Here's the translation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za_6A0XnMyw

Moros

08-31-2011, 23:46

Just something to show how beautifull French and Le Chanson can be:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSD8RPDViMM

frogbeastegg

09-01-2011, 00:14

I have absolutly no idea of the level of Fench taught in England
My name is ...
The weather is ...
I will order the roast chicken
I live at ...
My brother/sister is called ...
My pet is a [insert common animal]
This is a [insert common school room item here]
Counting up to 100, in such a manner that you needed to count your way up to the required number instead of knowing that 20=20
A brief glance at telling the time
A few basic colours
How to go into a patisserie and request random foodstuffs.
How to answer a phone if you are working in a hotel. Yes working, not trying to book in to.
Tu and vous.
I like/hate [insert common words like TV here]
I am good at/weak at [insert common items like lesson types here]
A small handful of country names, and a smaller handful of nationalities
A very brief look at the major body parts.
They kept making us play bingo. None of us knew what we were meant to be doing ...
A confusing explanation of how the currency worked

And that's about it. I have no idea where my current understanding comes from - none of it has any relation to what I was taught. Additionally, very little of it has stuck. I don't know my numbers very well, and can't remember how to say most of those things.

I just wanted to see if you could extract the meaning out of this song. It's a test of undertanding and not just translating word for word. What is he actually saying? What's at the core of this song? It's possible to say this in one sentence.
I'd say it's a soldier's song, one of those pieces which reflects on everything which is lost by a soldier marching off to war. Or one of those 'war is hell' songs, e.g. Rolf Harris and his famous 'two little boys'.

Anyway, thanks for the notes and corrections. I shall try the next exercise tomorrow.

Just something to show how beautifull French and Le Chanson can be:
Nice :bow:

French has a venerable history as a musical language. i have heard some attempted reconstructions of the chansons de geste and other surviving medieval songs. Some are in Anglo-French, many in Langue d'oc, and some in Langue d'oil. Out of the three, Langue d'oil is the closest ancestor of modern French. Here's an example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPT6TAe2Z7E&feature=related), one of Thibaut de Champagne's pieces. The words are accurate, the music probably not.

Peasant Phill

09-01-2011, 11:41

...And that's about it. I have no idea where my current understanding comes from - none of it has any relation to what I was taught. Additionally, very little of it has stuck. I don't know my numbers very well, and can't remember how to say most of those things.

your understanding of French is really excellent if that's the extent you were thaught in school. It means you probably have a knack for languages or French in particular.

I'd say it's a soldier's song, one of those pieces which reflects on everything which is lost by a soldier marching off to war. Or one of those 'war is hell' songs, e.g. Rolf Harris and his famous 'two little boys'.

Anyway, thanks for the notes and corrections. I shall try the next exercise tomorrow.

I guess it could be viewed as a soldier's song if you squint a bit and look at it from far but that isn't the original intention of the song. Brel sums up many injustices and problems in the world (war in Ireland, ravaged cities, infidelity, ...) where we as humans feel powerless against. But according to Brel, he feels the most powerless, he is the most emotionaly affected when he sees a friend crying. Hence ending each verse with Mais voir un ami pleurer, But to watch a friend crying ...

frogbeastegg

09-02-2011, 19:00

I failed miserably with the latest song, and after hours of getting nowhere I looked at the translation. I could only get the odd word here and there. I had to look nearly everything up, and then couldn't put it together in a way which made satisfactory sense. The repeated Ne me quitte pas was the only exception to this although once again I had to look parts of it up.

I decided that the Discworld books by Terry Pratchett should be suitable reading en Francais. The language is reasonably simple, and I have read the ones I like at least a couple of times. J'ai commencer avec 'Les Annales du Disque-Monde tome 4: Mortimer'. A pity that the joke title is lost in translation. The main character is named Mortimer, and Mort is a common abbreviation for the name. Young Mortimer is Death's (aka the Grim Reaper) apprentice.

Peasant Phill

09-02-2011, 21:04

I failed miserably with the latest song, and after hours of getting nowhere I looked at the translation. I could only get the odd word here and there. I had to look nearly everything up, and then couldn't put it together in a way which made satisfactory sense. The repeated Ne me quitte pas was the only exception to this although once again I had to look parts of it up.

Sorry about that. I guess I got a bit carried away with the songs (and the comics).

I decided that the Discworld books by Terry Pratchett should be suitable reading en Francais. The language is reasonably simple, and I have read the ones I like at least a couple of times. J'ai commencer avec 'Les Annales du Disque-Monde tome 4: Mortimer'. A pity that the joke title is lost in translation. The main character is named Mortimer, and Mort is a common abbreviation for the name. Young Mortimer is Death's (aka the Grim Reaper) apprentice.

And mort means death i French so I believe the joke still works.

frogbeastegg

09-02-2011, 21:45

I'm not doing so badly with the comics. It's slow going and I need a break after a few pages. Still fun. I did make a mistake starting with Asterix chex les Britons - the British characters speak differently to the Gauls. I checked the wiki to see what was happening, and found that they speak very literal English-> French translations, and use all of the common mistakes that English people do when speaking French. They are a masterclass in how not to do it! The effect is quite funny and easier to read, but I was picking up bad habits. I shall return to that one later.

The joke in English is that the 'death' meaning isn't immediately obvious. It's just a name until it dawns on you, "Hold on a minute, doesn't that mean ...?" Some readers will never spot it. Inside the translated book Mort appears to have been dubbed Morty, and Death himself is La Mort.

Peasant Phill

09-02-2011, 22:41

I'm actually reading through the Koblenz comics at the moment and I really need to take my time to understand it all. Haven't touched the asterix books in a while, perhaps those are a bit easier.

I actually have the Mortimer book in my library but it's in Dutch. In Dutch, the joke is even more obvious as they call Death 'Magere Hein' (Skinny Hein, a very common nickname for Death) and Mortimer becomes 'Dunne Hein' (Thin Hein). So far for subtle jokes.

SwordsMaster

09-06-2011, 14:58

Phew. My kind of topic.

From experience - I currently speak 4 fluently, and 3 more I can get around with.

Basics:

Identify your goals: what will you use the language for?
Create sentences in the language (use a dictionary or whatever you need) to reflect what you need to use it for: questions, ‘repeat please’, ‘slower please’ and other such basics. E.g. If you’re going on holiday make sure you know and can easily recognize words such as airport, hotel, delay, left, right, connection, luggage, and so on.

This will give you a vocabulary of about 50 -100 words.

After that you will most likely have an idea of basic sentence structure, if not, reinforce this while learning more words.

Realise that to be able to get around with a language you need about 1200-1500 words total. This will give you basic fluency. Most non-native speakers’ business or even uni level English comprises some 500-800 words if they don’t regularly use it. It’s scary to think that the world economy runs mostly on an 800 word vocabulary, but there you go.

Once you understand the basic sentence structure, and depending on how far you want to take it:

Read a book on the topic of your interest. Translate every word if you have to. You will be able to appreciate meaning thanks to your understanding of structure. Pronounce the words as you read them (you can find audio samples on wiktionary).

This should take you no more than 3 months. After that you should be able to maintain a slow-ish conversation. Watching movies subtitled in your target language also helps (watch a French language movie with French subtitles so you get used to pronunciation – I learned to recognize Portuguese by watching City of God.)

frogbeastegg

09-08-2011, 15:07

I haven't given up; I'm still working away. I haven't had chance to post anything, that's all. Now I am at the point where memorising word tables will be useful. I want words - lots and lots of words. I shall see about getting some books with word lists and grammar advice this weekend.

My local library's French section turns out to be a single shelf, approximately 30 books in total. No comics, no children's books, and nothing with obviously simple language. I have learned that French books do not like to tell you anything about the contents! While an English book is happy to give you the equivalent of a page's worth of description on the back, the French books give a skimpy little paragraph. I can't even tell if some of the books were fiction or non-fiction. I took the four most promising books, I think it's three fiction and one history ... or two fiction and two historical fiction. One of the books talking about history is definitely fiction. The one which I am not sure about is something about Christopher Columbus, 'L'Entreprise des Indes' by Erik Orsenna. The back makes it sound like history. The inside looks more like fiction. Hmm.

I'm trying to describe a few things in French each day. Unusual things, like the subject of my current history book, or what happened in a game. No boring weather discussion here! I think the results are decent, in a mangled overly literal English->French way. I need to start subjecting people to my efforts so I can get a verdict. ;p

I'm actually reading through the Koblenz comics at the moment and I really need to take my time to understand it all. Haven't touched the asterix books in a while, perhaps those are a bit easier.
I hadn't tried more than the first few panels of Koblenz, as I didn't want to confuse myself by having multiple French books on the go. When you said this I went and took a look further in. Yep, that's harder. The lengthy series description and first few panels were much easier.

Much wisdom
That's a lot of good advice. 800 words sounds so much more manageable than the nebulous concept that is an entire language.

The tip about pairing spoken French to written French has paid off already. I noticed that RFI's 'Le journal en Francais facile' broadcast also has a written transcript. While listening to the program, I get maybe 20% of the content. That's after I have let it repeat once so that my brain has adjusted to the accents, and without any help. When looking at the written version, I can understand closer to 50% without any help. Understand being a rough term rather than perfection, of course.