So, Guns *Are* The Answer To Piracy

[Crazed Rabbit]

I told you so. (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/08/pirate-fighters-inc/all/1)


Pirate-Fighters, Inc.: How Mercenaries Became Ships’ Best Defense
By David Axe

It was a normal morning in April last year. Normal, that is, by the crazy standards of the fishermen, ship’s crews, navy sailors and Somali pirates plying their dangerous trades on 2.5 million square miles of lawless ocean stretching from India to Kenya.

“Dave,” a 44-year-old from Wiltshire in southwest England, was standing watch on the upper deck of a commercial car carrier bound from Mumbai to Mombasa. Scanning the horizon with a pair of high-powered binoculars, the former British Royal Marine of 24 years’ experience spotted something suspicious ahead of the carrier: a small freighter matching the profile of a pirate “mothership,” a sort of floating base for heavily armed sea bandits and their small boats.

What happened next was like something out of a Hollywood thriller. But for Dave and a fast-growing number of for-profit ship guards, it was just another day on the job — and evidence of a surprising turn in the years-old, international war on piracy.

The world’s governments are waking up to the sobering fact that the gazillion-dollar warships they’ve sent to the Gulf of Aden and Indian Ocean can’t keep up with the region’s elusive pirates. The hijackers’ simple, brutal tactics are too effective. Their business model is too attractive. And they’ve got nothing to lose but their lives.

The days are probably numbered for 10,000-ton Burke-class destroyers chasing down illiterate Somali thugs sailing in souped-up fishing boats called “skiffs.” The future of the piracy war could belong to Dave and guys like him, standing lonely guard on gigantic, fortified commercial vessels speeding through pirate-infested waters.

Destroyers are expensive and ill-suited to long, tedious piracy patrols. Armed guards are comparatively cheap and, as Dave proved that April morning, highly effective. Sure, guards come with their own limitations and complications. But hiring professional ship-protectors beats the alternative: an endless, pointless military exercise.
...
Bottom line: as a means of defense, guards are proving cheaper and at least as effective as warships, if not more so. Dave showed just how on that morning last April.
...
The guards fired again, this time into the water in front of the pirate boat. The skiff jinked to the side … and kept coming. Soon it was within 500 meters [0.3 miles] of the car carrier — close enough to hit the ship with rockets and rifles. There was time for just one more warning shot before Dave and his team would be forced to kill the attackers.

“The final shot worked and the skiff slowed and stopped in the water. They had gotten to within 400 meters of the vessel and realized that an armed team was on board.” That realization was enough to end the attack.

Today, sophisticated warships continue patrolling the Indian Ocean, capturing or deterring only a handful of pirates at the cost of millions of dollars per ship annually, and leaving most commercial vessels vulnerable to attack. For probably around a hundred thousand dollars, the car carrier’s owner prevented a hijacking after the pirates had already slipped past the naval cordon.

Self-defense succeeded where the world’s navies failed.

If only I could find that old thread and all that moaning about 'escalating the situation' and self defense not working.

CR

[a completely inoffensive name]

I thought the title was referencing internet piracy and thought CR suddenly turned insane by suggesting that having cops with guns beat down doors to arrest teenagers would work.

[lars573]

Now let's see what happens if a commercial ship full of armed men tries to land in the EU or North America shall we?

[Major Robert Dump]

Um, it's already happening. It's not the crew that's armed, the guards are contractors.

[Furunculus]

always a more sensible approach to use mercenaries, and since piracy is very much a regional thing then enterprising PMC's will create jump-on and jump-off points around these troubled regions so that prissy western governments don't get palpitations over the health and safety implications of armed individuals entering a busy work environment*

* read: Port

[rajpoot]

IMO they ought to have shot to kill as soon as the pirates were in range. What use are warning shots against people who you know aren't going to change their ways.

[Montmorency]

Then hire the pirates themselves as mercenaries and they'll all be occupied with each other?

[Adrian II]

Of course self-defense works against these trolls. So does bombing their bases on land - the usual tactic from 1500 to 1900. Find out what ports they come from and hit them. Dave would soon be out of a job.

AII

[Prussian to the Iron]

why can't we just get some submarines in there to hunt em? they go pretty fast AFAIK, and they have torpedoes >:)

[a completely inoffensive name]

why can't we just get some submarines in there to hunt em? they go pretty fast AFAIK, and they have torpedoes >:)

Because that is also expensive.

[HoreTore]

Ah yes, they fled the armed one and probably set sail for an unarmed one later. So, one ship still plundered.

Want to talk about escalation? Come back to me when all ships have armed guards. When only a few are armed, they get ignored while its business as usual for the rest. This story proves absolutely nothing in that regard.




And anyway, using guns againdt the pirates is fixing the symptom, not the actual problem. Create a viable state and economy in Somalia, instead of trying as hard as possible to eliminate every source of income there, and piracy will disappear immediatly.

But then again, Somali's are brown and non-christian, so who cares? It is, after all, okay to kill certain races.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Ah yes, they fled the armed one and probably set sail for an unarmed one later. So, one ship still plundered.

Want to talk about escalation? Come back to me when all ships have armed guards. When only a few are armed, they get ignored while its business as usual for the rest. This story proves absolutely nothing in that regard.




And anyway, using guns againdt the pirates is fixing the symptom, not the actual problem. Create a viable state and economy in Somalia, instead of trying as hard as possible to eliminate every source of income there, and piracy will disappear immediatly.

But then again, Somali's are brown and non-christian, so who cares? It is, after all, okay to kill certain races.

You can say that about pretty much any crappy place in the world. But the fact is that it's not viable to try and set up better governments and economies in some places. Perhaps if they weren't stealing billions and billions of dollars a year then the rest of the world would be a bit more sympathetic to their plight.

[Montmorency]

Yeah, those greedy, starving Somalians. Think of all the billions they've stolen. You'd think they'd all be living in mansions by now! It's not our fault that the Somalis are inveterate hoarders and refuse to spend any of that money on themselves.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Yeah, those greedy, starving Somalians. Think of all the billions they've stolen. You'd think they'd all be living in mansions by now! It's not our fault that the Somalis are inveterate hoarders and refuse to spend any of that money on themselves.

They certainly as hell aren't spending it on rebuilding their country or developing better farming techniques to keep themselves fed. Though I don't know what they spend it on, I'm pretty sure it's on more guns, ammo, and piracy materials, and probably drugs and illicit substances that have nothing to do with fixing the country.

[Montmorency]

Hint: warlords and corrupt dudes.

[HoreTore]

Yeah, those greedy, starving Somalians. Think of all the billions they've stolen. You'd think they'd all be living in mansions by now! It's not our fault that the Somalis are inveterate hoarders and refuse to spend any of that money on themselves.

Not to mention that it's THEIR fault that the waters off the coast was used as an international junkyard for every toxic waste imaginable by other countries, thus stripping the fishermen of their livelyhood...

If they only had the common sense not to be abused by those stronger than they are.

[Beskar]

IMO they ought to have shot to kill as soon as the pirates were in range. What use are warning shots against people who you know aren't going to change their ways.

Would you suggest the same of mall-security guards performing such actions against shop-lifters?

[Papewaio]

The mercs are a good idea to temporarily resolve the symptom. They will not resolve the root cause of the issue, they also could cause escalations and reprisals. Things could go from kidnapping and ransom to revenge killings and sinking. All we need is for a Blackwater type of incident were they blow up a pilot boat or shoot a civilian yacht at night to reverse any positive gains from this.

=][=

I wonder which nations took advantage of the Somali civil wars and decided to plunder their fishing grounds and dump toxic waste because it was easier then paying for them to be processed...


Peter Lehr, a Somalia piracy expert at the University of St. Andrews says "It's almost like a resource swap, Somalis collect up to $100 million a year from pirate ransoms off their coasts and the Europeans and Asians poach around $300 million a year in fish from Somali waters."[29][113] The UK's Department for International Development (DFID) issued a report in 2005 stating that, between 2003 and 2004, Somalia lost about $100 million in revenue due to illegal tuna and shrimp fishing in the country's exclusive economic zone by foreign trawlers.

From the wiki on Piracy in Somalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So, Hortore, we owe the Somalis a functional country then? You want Norwegians on the ground there doing some nation building? Hint, as a Yank, I can assure there is a bit of cost involved and that the results are usually less than ideal -- though you already know that.

Or perhaps you believe that piracy is a legitimate response to poverty? After all, it is simply property no? But I exagerate; I am aware that you don't approve of piratical attacks any more than you approve of military intervention.

Maybe we should just throw money at the problem. Since they have been wronged by private citizens of some of our nations, it is right for all of us collectively to pay them not to pirate us since it is, really, our fault after all. Again, I exagerate; I know that you are neither that naive nor do you take such a simplistic view.


In short, the Somalis are just as much the authors of their own troubles as are any external source (and yes, the dumping stuff was an evil act; there is plenty of blame to go around). They are locked in warlordism with all its iniquity and insipid lethargy. They show no signs of being willing to take practical steps -- and yes that means bleed for it -- to change the situation. Until they seek meaningful change, it will remain as it is.

Since the piracy continues and that piracy represents a threat to all who commerce through those waters, it must be stopped. It is impractical for most Western navies to do so on a ship-to-ship at sea basis, so arming the transports to minimize the threat seems prudent. In addition, Adrian is absolutely correct. Piracy cannot exist where it has no base to fall back upon. So take the bases out. This has been the primary strategy at least since Gnaeus Pompius Magnus, and it has always worked.

Use the Nassau model. Offer amnesty once. When the inevitable backsliders return to the trade anyway, kill them at sea and eradicate their base of operations. If you are of a kind heart and willing to bleed, you do so with a marine landing force who can mostly avoid killing the obvious non-combatants. If you are not, use a daisy cutter.

[Centurion1]

So, Hortore, we owe the Somalis a functional country then? You want Norwegians on the ground their doing some nation building? Hint, as a Yank, I can assure there is a bit of cost involved and that the results are usually less than ideal -- though you already know that.

Or perhaps you believe that piracy is a legitimate response to poverty? After all, it is simply property no? But I exagerate; I am aware that you don't approve of piratical attacks any more than you approve of military intervention.

Maybe we should just throw money at the problem. Since they have been wronged by private citizens of some of our nations, it is right for all of us collectively to pay them not to pirate us since it is, really, our fault after all. Again, I exagerate; I know that you are neither that naive nor do you take such a simplistic view.


In short, the Somalis are just as much the authors of their own troubles as are any external source (and yes, the dumping stuff was an evil act; there is plenty of blame to go around). They are locked in warlordism with all its iniquity and insipid lethargy. They show no signs of being willing to take practical steps -- and yes that means bleed for it -- to change the situation. Until they seek meaningful change, it will remain as it is.

Since the piracy continues and that piracy represents a threat to all who commerce through those waters, it must be stopped. It is impractical for most Western navies to do so on a ship-to-ship at sea basis, so arming the transports to minimize the threat seems prudent. In addition, Adrian is absolutely correct. Piracy cannot exist where it has no base to fall back upon. So take the bases out. This has been the primary strategy at least since Gnaeus Pompius Magnus, and it has always worked.

Use the Nassau model. Offer amnesty once. When the inevitable backsliders return to the trade anyway, kill them at sea and eradicate their base of operations. If you are of a kind heart and willing to bleed, you do so with a marine landing force who can mostly avoid killing the obvious non-combatants. If you are not, use a daisy cutter.

:thumbsup:

[Strike For The South]

Hang'em high

[Major Robert Dump]

Oh please. Eliminating the social/economic cause for pirating is not going to fix this alone. I'm sure Rajuul the Somali pirate would gladly take a $3 a day job as a clerk or a construction worker rather than work in a profession where he stands to make millions and possibly get to ever rape some girls. These guys don't want to work, they don't want an education. They are illiterate, brutal, self serving savages who laughingly claim to be muslim.

In case you guys missed the news, we are nation building in Somalia. A "government" has been installed in Somalia. And this government is fighting Islamofscists AND pirates, who happen to be working together

Allowing yourself to be targets as retribution for real and percieved wrongs by random nations against your international waters is not the answer. The answer leaving a skiff with 6 ded bodies for the mothership to come pick up.

[Montmorency]

Allowing yourself to be targets as retribution for real and percieved wrongs by random nations against your international waters is not the answer. The answer leaving a skiff with 6 ded bodies for the mothership to come pick up.

No, that isn't the answer. Can't be. They simply breed too quickly. If we want to get rid of these "savages", we have to get serious about it.

:thinking::idea:

:pirate2::somalia::rifle::smg::pirate::hmg::scared::surrender::somalia::shakehands::unitednations:

:somalia::tnt::flame:

:somalia::skull:

:cheerleader:

Sound good?

[Fragony]

Thread is perfect excuse to post awesome footage, reminds me of the first level of COD4 http://www.jokeroo.com/videos/extreme/dutch-marines-raid-cargo-ship.html

[rory_20_uk]

Either arm the ships or have supported convoys. Radar is useful, and small unmanned planes are useful too.

Everyone weighs up the benefits and risks of actions. Currently the benefits of Piracy are great, and the risks are probably no greater than the background situation in Somalia.

If targets are rarer, are better armed and there is a real risk of getting blown out of the water before even seeing the threat then the numbers will decrease, both due to attrition of numbers and perceived attractiveness of the activity.

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

@Seamus: I, quite naturally, do not have the perfect solution to fix Somalia. But that doesn't change the fact that the root cause of piracy is the messy state the country is in. Armed guards is a temporary fix to the symptom, it does not in any way fix the root cause. I don't believe in either throwing money at them or sending troops there.

I do believe, however, that micro-capitalism and cleaning up the enviromental damage we caused will push things into a positive direction. Is it the be all-end all? No, but it's a good first step.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

@Seamus: I, quite naturally, do not have the perfect solution to fix Somalia. But that doesn't change the fact that the root cause of piracy is the messy state the country is in. Armed guards is a temporary fix to the symptom, it does not in any way fix the root cause. I don't believe in either throwing money at them or sending troops there.

I do believe, however, that micro-capitalism and cleaning up the enviromental damage we caused will push things into a positive direction. Is it the be all-end all? No, but it's a good first step.

...first time I've seen you post positively about using capitalism. Certainly don't want to squelch that.

[rajpoot]

Would you suggest the same of mall-security guards performing such actions against shop-lifters?

Shop-lifters don't murder people.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Shop-lifters don't murder people.
+1

Nor do they steal millions of dollars in a single day

[Major Robert Dump]

You have obviously never been to St Louis

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You have obviously never been to St Louis

Or, of late, London.

[Adrian II]

Either arm the ships or have supported convoys. Radar is useful, and small unmanned planes are useful too.

That's all been tried. It's enormously costly and it isn't very effective. People imagine the high seas as a large pond where you can have 100% radar coverage and patrol high risk areas with airplanes and drones.

It isn't.

Warships can only patrol so much of an area, particularly if they don't bring (http://www.warisboring.com/2010/05/16/on-piracy-patrol-norwegian-super-frigate-hamstrung-by-radar-missing-chopper/) the required equipment... And even if you do (http://www.warisboring.com/2011/04/04/dutch-marines-shoot-somali-pirates/), results are meager.

Smoking the pirates out in their home ports is the time-honoured method of dealing with them. And for God's sake don't throw money at the problem, it'll only end up in the wrong hands.

AII

[Fragony]

It would certainly be tradional, but also a bit drastic no. A few armed guards should be enough to just make sure it not worth the trouble.

[Adrian II]

It would certainly be tradional, but also a bit drastic no. A few armed guards should be enough to just make sure it not worth the trouble.

You can't hire any old idiot as a guard, you know. It's a specialist job. And there are 70.000 ship movements per year through the Gulf of Aden.

Plus insurance is a bitch as well.

AII

[HoreTore]

...first time I've seen you post positively about using capitalism. Certainly don't want to squelch that.

I don't think you've paid attention then, either that or I haven't said everything I mean yet... Which means that you can look forward to another couple thousand posts of my gibberish :smash:

I'm a social democrat. That means I love capitalism. I also love curbing capitalism's excesses and inefficiences...

[HoreTore]

Or, of late, London.

Yes, demanding 10 million for Peter Crouch really does top the list of scumbaggery... But some of the blame must go to Pulis as well, doesn't it?

[rory_20_uk]

That's all been tried. It's enormously costly and it isn't very effective. People imagine the high seas as a large pond where you can have 100% radar coverage and patrol high risk areas with airplanes and drones.

It isn't.

Warships can only patrol so much of an area, particularly if they don't bring (http://www.warisboring.com/2010/05/16/on-piracy-patrol-norwegian-super-frigate-hamstrung-by-radar-missing-chopper/) the required equipment... And even if you do (http://www.warisboring.com/2011/04/04/dutch-marines-shoot-somali-pirates/), results are meager.

Smoking the pirates out in their home ports is the time-honoured method of dealing with them. And for God's sake don't throw money at the problem, it'll only end up in the wrong hands.

Convoys mean the amount of sea to cover is relatively small. Since the "enemy" are surface ships and boats, not subs, there would not need to be many or big surface ships for each convoy.

Destroying ports would be ineffective as it's a hydra. Attacking ports where ships are held might be more effective - although there would be a considerable chance that some sailors would die as well as a large number of pirates.

~:smoking:

[gaelic cowboy]

what happens if Pirates get creative and start packing explosives on little speedboats. They could carry them on there main boat and be safely out of range of weapons. After the first boat gott sank the insurance companies would just pay protection money.

I say they should just sink every boat in a somalia port no matter what it is, follow them back to the ports and blow the places up.

[Ja'chyra]

I would say that the area is obviously a war zone, any commercial ships entering the area do so at their own risk. If it was my ship I'd have armed guards with orders to shoot to kill after sufficient warning was given, that warning being clear enough that approaching within 300 metres means you will get shot, tannoy/radio signals/whatever.

As for toxic waste dumping and poverty, that's for governments to sort, and they should even if that means peace keeping forces, feeding the nation or enforcing peace on the area, but for a ship owner I would protect my ship and crew at the expense of any pirates life. You pay your money you make your choices, I see them the same as a burglar, excepting scale, you choose to invade my home you accept the risks of doing so, the main difference is that I don't believe anyone on the planet doesn't know the risks of piracy, and, if you know the risks you know the consequences.

[Major Robert Dump]

Convoys will never happen between competing shipping companies. Most companies with a fleet don't service the same ports at the same time. Escort boats will not be able to hold as much fuel as the tanker, and if they are not larger that the tanker then they will not have 360 visibility around the ship and that is what the pirates bank on.

I might also point out that a convoy might just enable earlier warning of attack assuming the other ships actually cooperate, which is more and more unlikely the more different nationalities and cultures become involved. Anyway, the pirates speed up on a ship on a convoy, even easier to do near busy ports with lots of traffic, they board it, the convoy continues with one less ship. How does this solve anything? We don't actually think the other ships are going to intereven, do we?

The best and cheapest ways is armed protection on the ships, and to not fire warning shots.

[Shibumi]

Somalia tend to come off as a bit of a dump.

That comment ranges from politics to gene stock (Somalis do not tend to do overly well anywhere).

My suggestion would be to shoot down anything that float or has the ability to shoot. Create a fly zone that patrol the coastline. Simultaneously wall in the whole place.

Then let foreign fishing companies fish outside the coast, but they will have to pay X% back to Somalia. This money would be parachuted down over the capital every month.

Open some specific borders for trade, but let no one pass.

With these efforts we might, just might, have a functional country in ten years or so, instead of the dump we have now. Millions and millions of civilized countries money goes into this poor excuse for a country. Not even mentioning the immigration issues.

[rajpoot]

With these efforts we might, just might, have a functional country in ten years or so, instead of the dump we have now. Millions and millions of civilized countries money goes into this poor excuse for a country. Not even mentioning the immigration issues.

Or maybe when someone will go 'beyond' the wall after ten years they will discover that all the people have turned into morlocks.

[Shibumi]

Or maybe when someone will go 'beyond' the wall after ten years they will discover that all the people have turned into morlocks.

Well, there is always just that off-chance.

But as of today, who do you picture as more Morlocky?

Creating adjectives since the early 80's

[Jolt]

Somalia tend to come off as a bit of a dump.

That comment ranges from politics to gene stock (Somalis do not tend to do overly well anywhere).

My suggestion would be to shoot down anything that float or has the ability to shoot. Create a fly zone that patrol the coastline. Simultaneously wall in the whole place.

Then let foreign fishing companies fish outside the coast, but they will have to pay X% back to Somalia. This money would be parachuted down over the capital every month.

Open some specific borders for trade, but let no one pass.

With these efforts we might, just might, have a functional country in ten years or so, instead of the dump we have now. Millions and millions of civilized countries money goes into this poor excuse for a country. Not even mentioning the immigration issues.

Haha. This has got to be the most absurd idea I've ever heard of. :laugh3:

[Major Robert Dump]

Shibumi always struck me as a far-left, bleeding heart, compassion-for-all liberal. That post proves otherwise, and is tinged with a hint of racism that is almost comical. I'm thinking the post is satire

[Fragony]

Shibumi always struck me as a far-left, bleeding heart, compassion-for-all liberal.

Nah like all Vikings he just dislikes America

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