View Full Version : TWS2 RPG Discussion Thread
TWS2 has been out for a while now and I've been wondering if it would be suited for an rpg. ETW never generated much interest (although we did discuss it).
TWS2 does have some points in its favor.
-It's a setting that's both very far away from previous rpgs but one which many people have an interest in.
-Being able to build your own generals (and agents) would be great for rp purposes.
-One of the most immersive TW games since the original
-A difficult AI that would pose a legitimate challenge on the campaign map(especially if we went high with the difficulty)
-Credible mid-late game challenge in the Realm Divide, something that's been created artificially in other rpgs
-Smaller setting with clear goals (and some nice side goals, like capturing the black ship)
-Issues like religious conversion and dealing with Nanban ports add to IC conflicts
Some obstacles, most of which have turned out not to obstacles at all:
-Smaller setting with clearer goals. Less of a sandbox with only the islands of Japan to fight over, less diversity of opponents.
-Takes a while to get to a size that would give a decent number of general avatars (although with the skill trees for agents they might do well as characters)
-DLC. If I have the Ikki pack and someone else has the new one that adds units, are our saves incompatible with eachother and with someone with neither? This is an issue for standard succession games as well. Save games are compatible.
-Most of us here in the Throne Room seem to play mostly games from the RTW/MTW2 era, in the latter case partly because it's the only one to work for hotseats. How many of us own TWS2? Quite a few, it seems
GeneralHankerchief
09-01-2011, 02:10
I'd definitely be in, for one. TWS2 vanilla, no DLCs if that matters, but I don't believe it does (don't quote me on that).
I was worried the DLC might make a difference as far as savegame compatibility. We could test it if there's someone around who has some dlc content.
I've been avoiding getting any for fear of messing up mod versus mod so that's three of us with vanilla TWS2 at least (assuming Phonics were interested).
phonicsmonkey
09-01-2011, 03:07
I'm in! I don't have any DLCs..
Cecil XIX
09-01-2011, 03:41
The reason Empire and Napoleon have no presence here has a lot to due with their poor reception, I'd imagine. I don't think a game using Shogun 2 would have that problem.
The biggest problem is that Shogun 2 gives you the fewest generals of any TW game to date. I think allowing characters to roleplay as agents is essential in this regard. My experience is that agents don't die as often either, which is helpful. Another thing we should consider is allowing players without avatars to fight battles as Captains, or whatever they're called. I don't know if their names change as constantly as they did in RTW/M2TW, but if they did it would probably be best to see who's interested in playing a Captain, then choosing randomly since they'd be no IC info to base the decision off of. Alternatively, if people were roleplaying characters that didn't exist in game, we could send them to the captain as a sort of military liaison to justify having them play the battle.
There's a benefit that's almost as big though: The game let's you choose the heir! This gives the succession disputes the chance to be deadly serious, which would be a lot of fun! Another thing to consider it is giving the four commissioners powers in the rules, and allowing the Daimyo to appoint commissioners even if there aren't enough generals in the game. The bonus the commissioners give suggest their powers:
Commissioner for Warfare - Recruits military units
Commissioner for Supply - Directs reinforcements
Commissioner for Finance - Determines tax rates and exemptions
Commissioner for Develop - Approves all construction
We have to fine tune the balance of power between them and the Daimyo, but I think it could really pay off.
Anyway, I'd certainly jump into a Shogun 2 RPG as soon as it was announced.
I hadn't even thought of that (Phonics and my generals die so often in Mod vs Mod I'm guessing neither of us has gotten to use all of the titles at once :clown:).
Who would determine how to divide koku between military and construction purposes? Maybe the Daimyo?
phonicsmonkey
09-01-2011, 05:55
I hadn't even thought of that (Phonics and my generals die so often in Mod vs Mod I'm guessing neither of us has gotten to use all of the titles at once :clown:).
Who would determine how to divide koku between military and construction purposes? Maybe the Daimyo?
Or the chief metsuke?
Or the Commissioner of Warfare and the Commisioner of Development will have to present their budget wishes and argue their cases. Then the Daimyo makes the decision. Or there could then be a vote between Chief Metsuke / Commisioner for Finance / Daimyo on who gets his wish and who gets what is left over.
In any case this sounds very interesting. Count me in.
I have S2TW, vanilla version without any DLC so far.
It's heartening to see that there's a lot of interest in a TWS2 RPG. I changed the thread title to reflect a change in subject from whether the new game would work for an RPG to how we're going to make it work.
If everyone is willing I would gladly work on a ruleset and gm a TWS2 rpg. :bow:
I like Cecil's idea to include the game's commissioner titles in the RPG and thoughts on their abilities (and suggestion that non generals should be able to get the titles). I'd like to share an idea about their implementation, particularly who has final say on money spent.
Commissioner for Warfare - Recruits military units
Commissioner for Supply - Directs reinforcements
Commissioner for Finance - Determines tax rates and exemptions
Commissioner for Develop - Approves all construction
So we have the Finance Commissioner who controls the available pool of money by controlling taxes and the Commissioners of Warfare and Development who between them control recruitment and construction. I'm wondering if the Commissioner of Supply might, in addition to moving troops around to join stacks, might be the guy who decides what exactly is built and ends the turn. The Commissioners of Warfare and Development give lists to him. The Supply Commissioner chooses which parts of the lists to fulfill (and can prioritize the lists or just not build anything) or can choose not to spend the money but can't recruit or build outside the lists. He also moves unled armies and ends the turn. Maybe the Daimyo can give a separate list for his capital city that must be fulfilled before the others.
So the balance is that the Finance guy controls the flow of money by picking tax rates, the Warfare and Development Commissioners control what can be built, and the Development guy controls what does get built with the resources and lists the other Commissioners give him.
This makes these four guys pretty powerful, which begs the question of how to handle their appointment. In-game you can appoint them and strip them of the title as often as you want. Do we want to limit this ability the Daimyo would have? Only let him name a new one every ten turns, or make 1 or more a position that's voted for?
Another subject Phonics was talking to me about was agents. He had the idea of making the first of each type of agent the Head ____ (ninja, etc.). I like this idea, especially as many players are likely to be agents but we'll need to think about what powers these titles should have if we're using them.
On a more general subject is how to structure the game. Previous rpgs here used MTW2 or RTW as their base (often with a mod). TWS2 is such a different game that even if we made a conscious decision to use the older games as a guide a lot of things are likely to end up very different by the time we modify them to fit TWS2. An example is the strong likelihood of more agent than general characters. In other RPG here there is generally a royal family that may be stronger or weaker, at least one strong elected role (Many times combining powers we're discussing giving the Comissioners, sometimes minus one or two), and a lot of general characters with some type of geographically based power (Duchies, Houses, etc.).
To me a TWS2 game seems likely to be somewhat more centralized, and few titles being geographically based. I'd like to see voting continue (with players being advisors to the Daimyo whose power derives from influence with the samurai that keep things running), with influence bonuses for certain titles or the ranks all generals and agents have that seem ready made for this type of thing. Also we'll need a lot of focus on incorporating agent characters. Generals can fight battles, marry into the Daimyo's family, become heir. Captains can fight battles and aspire to getting a generalship offer after a battle. What makes me want to play the faction's third ninja? Eligibility for Commissioner positions and the extra character given in this game through choosing ancillaries and abilities as you advance help, but I wonder if more is needed.
phonicsmonkey
09-04-2011, 09:32
To expand a little on my agents idea.
I would say the first of each type of agent would be Head. Until that one dies and is replaced by the next highest level agent, with order of recruitment being the tie breaker.
The Head Ninja (call him Shinobi?) could report directly to the Daimyo who would have the power to direct all ninja activities for a given turn. If no specific orders are given by the Daimyo (and 'take no action' is an order) then the Head Ninja has discretion. The other ninjas do what the Head Ninja tells them unless there are no orders in which case they can do as they please (perhaps with restrictions around action against clans which are not enemies).
The Head Metsuke could report to the Commissioner for Finance who would have the power to direct which cities metsuke are to oversee (except in the case of no orders etc.). Except in wartime when the Commissioner for Warfare gets to appeal to the Daimyo for the release of specific metsuke to travel with armies or apprehend enemy agents. They would then be his to control until the Commissioner for Finance (or Head Metsuke) successfully appeals to the Daimyo for their release back to oversee towns.
I'm thinking the Monks could be an independent force and report to no-one (except the Head Monk).
Maybe only the Heads of each agency get to be in the running for Commissions? Or maybe they can only be eligible for certain Commissions? Like Ninja = warfare and supply, Metsuke = finance, development and supply and Monk = warfare and finance?
Just a few ill-formed ideas. Agents have the potential to be extremely valuable to the faction. A high-level ninja is worth a few armies. So it gives an incentive for people to court the favour of the Head Ninja so he can (in the absense of over-riding orders from the Daimyo) clear the way for their armies and generally help them out - you pat my back etc.
I like the idea of Commissioners being elected but with an influence-based vote so the Daimyo effectively dominates unless everyone else is against him.
Interesting. Would that makes things tough on the subordinate ninja/Metsuke, etc though? They wouldn't have much freedom.
phonicsmonkey
09-04-2011, 09:40
I guess - except in the absence of orders. perhaps they could disobey? problem is there's no sanction for that is there? you can't disband or kill one of your own agents can you?
having said all that, isn't it a bit like the lot of a low-ranking FM? they can't raise troops, wage war or do anything really without their liege
True, although with so few fms most will probably have an army at least. The Metsuke one worries me a little more, since they wouldn't even be able to move around freely.
Maybe the orders can have a time limit. They get issued at the beginning of each term and just have to be completed before it ends.
phonicsmonkey
09-04-2011, 09:51
Maybe the metsuke could get to choose which path they take when the faction is at war? ie. be a stay-at-home metsuke or go out on the road with the troops
that would allow them to choose their own fate a little better
plus what I didn't say above is that all agents would be allowed to choose their own traits and ancillaries when they level up, meaning they will mould their characters just like the FMs
plus what I didn't say above is that all agents would be allowed to choose their own traits and ancillaries when they level up, meaning they will mould their characters just like the FMs
That's one of my favorite things about the game for an RPG. Being able to choose character traits and abilities is great, especially for the agents. :yes:
I'm thinking the Monks could be an independent force and report to no-one (except the Head Monk).
I had an additional thoughts about Monks.
Maybe the Head Monk = "Abbot of XYZ Temple" (wherever he was recruited) will get control over all monk troops.
So he can try to build himself a monk army, or decide which Bow Monks or Naginata Monks go and join which army and for how long they stay there.
The general still decides the movement of the army and controls the monks in battle, but has to make sure he remains on good terms with the Temple if he wants to retain the service of the monk units.
Another thought is: are we really going to have enough players to have the third ninja or fourth metsuke?
Maybe we will only have the Head Metsuke as a player and he contolls all the metsuke actions, and the Shinobi Sensei controlling all the ninja actions and the Abbot controlling all the monks.
I like that idea. It adds a lot of flavor both for the agents and the monk troops.
You're almost certainly right about not having a ton of any particular agent (unless everyone wants to be a ninja :7ninja:). Even if we get a lot of players Ninja and Metsuke number 2 is much more likely, and he's either working closely with the head guy, eyeing his position, or both.
However our other agents actions get funded could provide the recruitment and upkeep costs for the monk troops (their missions are free, anyway). Maybe their income is set by term, and any they don't use is lost?
This sounds omoshiroi :)
I have the DLCs, so can help testing for compatibility...
Amusing? I hope that's a good thing. :clown:
Thank you very much. That would be very helpful. Save compatibility has been a concern of mine. If you get a chance could you try this save I played a few quick turns through?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=205&id=9485
phonicsmonkey
09-04-2011, 13:30
(unless everyone wants to be a ninja :7ninja:).
I want to be a ninja! :7ninja:
I am very interested in this.
I like the idea of players taking on the roles of agents as well. They would have very little to do in game (since agents have one action per turn) but would potentially have tremendous influence in the rpg aspect. Monk players in the Uesugi, for example, would likely have a lot of power due to that clan's overall flavor. Doubly so should there be "Head of X" roles.
I had an additional thoughts about Monks.
Maybe the Head Monk = "Abbot of XYZ Temple" (wherever he was recruited) will get control over all monk troops.
So he can try to build himself a monk army, or decide which Bow Monks or Naginata Monks go and join which army and for how long they stay there.
The general still decides the movement of the army and controls the monks in battle, but has to make sure he remains on good terms with the Temple if he wants to retain the service of the monk units.
That is a really cool idea.
Thank you very much. That would be very helpful. Save compatibility has been a concern of mine. If you get a chance could you try this save I played a few quick turns through?
I have the Ikko-Ikki DLC and nothing else. The save file loads perfect with no apparent corruption.
by the by, useful information for any S2TW RPG, the location of your save games:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1793874
As Monk said it works fine, I recruited DLC units in Kai...
They are under Yoshinobu, here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=205&id=9486) is the file...
Great, this seems to be taking off. :yes:
I'd be intersted in a general's position.
Captain, waiting to become a general, or son, waiting to come of age, would be just as fine - if it is appropriate to voice preferences, yet.
In any case - looking forward to it, whatever role fate will give me.
Ituralde
09-04-2011, 19:52
I might be interested in this!
I think one important thing that has been missing from the discussion so far is what scope you had in mind for the playerbase. I'm asking because this has a direct impact on the rules and roles you are already thinking of. So far I think we're at something like nine major roles.
Damyo
Heir
Commissioner for Warfare
Commissioner for Finance
Commissioner for Supply
Commissioner for Development
Head of Ninjas
Head of Metsuke
Head of Monks
So depending on the amount of players you could have a small focused approach, much like S2TW itself, where every participant has a major role to play and considerable powers at his command. From my experience this would be a refreshing appraoch from the older RPGs where there were far fewer major roles and more standard roles, who only had voting powers.
Which brings me to my second point: Voting? How could this be incorporated into the Shogun setting? My knowledge of medieval Japan is limited, but were ther precedents for democratic structures? Could they be incorporated sensibly in the game?
Anyway, I'm gonna follow this with interest!
Thanks for the link Monk. After being told how to find my save last night I was thinking that will be in the faq for our game.
As Monk said it works fine, I recruited DLC units in Kai...
They are under Yoshinobu, here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=205&id=9486) is the file...
I can download and play the save without any problems, even with the units you recruited (we'll have to not use them in the rpg itself).
Great, this seems to be taking off. :yes:
I'd be intersted in a general's position.
Captain, waiting to become a general, or son, waiting to come of age, would be just as fine - if it is appropriate to voice preferences, yet.
In any case - looking forward to it, whatever role fate will give me.
No problem giving preferences right now, although it could be a little while. I'm thinking the goal is to have a ruleset together within a few days, but I'm not sure how long it will take hammering that out into a final form.
I might be interested in this!
I think one important thing that has been missing from the discussion so far is what scope you had in mind for the playerbase. I'm asking because this has a direct impact on the rules and roles you are already thinking of. So far I think we're at something like nine major roles.
Damyo
Heir
Commissioner for Warfare
Commissioner for Finance
Commissioner for Supply
Commissioner for Development
Head of Ninjas
Head of Metsuke
Head of Monks
So depending on the amount of players you could have a small focused approach, much like S2TW itself, where every participant has a major role to play and considerable powers at his command. From my experience this would be a refreshing appraoch from the older RPGs where there were far fewer major roles and more standard roles, who only had voting powers.
Which brings me to my second point: Voting? How could this be incorporated into the Shogun setting? My knowledge of medieval Japan is limited, but were ther precedents for democratic structures? Could they be incorporated sensibly in the game?
Anyway, I'm gonna follow this with interest!
When Phonics was telling me about his idea for head agent titles, I initially said I liked the idea but worried that we'd have a game where most players had a title. It took only a few moments to wonder whether that would really be a problem or not. As long as most of them are still fun without being too taxing on their players (commissioner roles seem the worst for this, but they can be switched to new players), it could work and, as you say, would be a change from previous games, maybe a good one. Playerbase is tricky. By the midgame when our faction is fair sized I was thinking 10+ players. Most players would would then have more than a voting role.
From what little I know of Japan Samurai were very important, and not just in the military, tending to fill out a wide range of administrative roles. Perhaps the players have influence with these rank and file samurai, making them hard to ignore as advisors. If anyone has more knowledge of Japanese culture during the period could they correct me? The meetings each ten turns and voting have long been the staple of the rpgs here (it's even in the definition for the games stickied here) so this is a subject I'm very interested in. Doing away with a voting system or a big rehaul would be the biggest change (for good or ill) we could make compared to the other games.
phonicsmonkey
09-05-2011, 01:51
There are ways we could roleplay a voting system that would make it a representation of something other than actual voting.
To extend the idea that Zim suggests, perhaps the vote by players simply represents the 'weight of opinion' of notable persons in the faction.
Maybe, if this is the case, we make votes non-binding, in the sense that opinion could be ignored by the active party (whoever that happens to be). That could have considerable consequences.
On the topic of consequences I was also thinking about a way to cater for in-game 'disobedience'. For example, say the Commissioner for Finance instructs the Head Metsuke to send an agent to accompany a particular army and instead the Head Metsuke does something different.
He has disobeyed an order, something that happens in real life all the time. It'd be great to make it possible for this to happen in the game, within a framework that caters for it so we aren't all in a grey rules area all the time.
What if it's possible to disobey an order but the commanding officer can they decide to censure you? This would give players freedom to engage in skulduggery while knowing there is a potential cost to their action.
The proposed censure could be voted on and if passed a penalty could be applied according to a scale which is appropriate to the offence. Penalties could include fines (if there is personal property), loss of title or lands, temporary imprisonment (so the avatar is out of the game for a short period) or even death.
Making it an interesting dilemma for the player as to whether to disobey and also presenting the commander with a dilemma as to whether to press for censure. All creating lovely IC conflict and politicking within a framework that guides players' decisionmaking.
Cool idea. Would censure votes be confined to the major voting each ten turns or occur right away?
I may have missed it in the posts thus far, have we discussed who would be giving orders to head agent. Daimyo, certain commissioners (warfare for ninjas, Finance or development for Metsuke, Monks are independent, something like that)? Would there be a limit to how many orders could be given in a term, and the head agents can otherwise direct resources as they see fit? What happens if you try to censure and fail?
Starting when I get off work next morning (I work a graveyard shift) I'll start working on a very rough draft of the rules utilyzing the suggestions given so far. While it's not the same as actually playing the game, seeing everything together in a rules set might help us imagine how it will all work in game, and give a base for further additions and changes, as well as helping us see if we start to get feature heavy. Of course, the draft will be mostly for discussion, and nothing will be set in stone just yet.
phonicsmonkey
09-05-2011, 04:41
Cool idea. Would censure votes be confined to the major voting each ten turns or occur right away?
Right away.
I may have missed it in the posts thus far, have we discussed who would be giving orders to head agent.
Above I suggested:
The Head Ninja (call him Shinobi?) could report directly to the Daimyo who would have the power to direct all ninja activities for a given turn. If no specific orders are given by the Daimyo (and 'take no action' is an order) then the Head Ninja has discretion. The other ninjas do what the Head Ninja tells them unless there are no orders in which case they can do as they please (perhaps with restrictions around action against clans which are not enemies).
The Head Metsuke could report to the Commissioner for Finance who would have the power to direct which cities metsuke are to oversee (except in the case of no orders etc.). Except in wartime when the Commissioner for Warfare gets to appeal to the Daimyo for the release of specific metsuke to travel with armies or apprehend enemy agents. They would then be his to control until the Commissioner for Finance (or Head Metsuke) successfully appeals to the Daimyo for their release back to oversee towns.
I'm thinking the Monks could be an independent force and report to no-one (except the Head Monk).
Would there be a limit to how many orders could be given in a term, and the head agents can otherwise direct resources as they see fit?
Not sure...perhaps it should be less formal than that. After all, particularly in wartime the situation is likely to be fluid and we want the Daimyo (for example) to be able to make turn-by-turn decisions on who to assassinate, sabotage etc. If he misses the boat and the Head Ninja takes the turn first then the Head Ninja has discretion. Of course the HN should be looking for his orders but he may not always want to...
A loose structure here might reap benefits in terms of IC conflict!
What happens if you try to censure and fail?
Perhaps you lose influence for a time? proportional to the level of censure you tried to apply?
deguerra
09-05-2011, 08:13
Some nice ideas.
Doing away with a voting system or a big rehaul would be the biggest change (for good or ill) we could make compared to the other games.
An interesting thought. I'm tempted to say that 'roles' are already powerful enough without removing votes altogether. That said, I like the idea of votes being informal and non-binding.
None of you so far have mentioned player structure (in terms of houses or families or whatever we called them). While ironically it almost works best historically with STW2, I wouldn't mind giving the game a try without the usual strict hierarchy and associated bonuses. It would free of inter-player diplomacy to be more varied and less rigid. And it would mean that a smaller playerbase or dwindling numbers (IMO the bane of all our RPGs) would be less of an issue.
I'd still be up for making Mon though :bow: 2276
For the little I know about Sengoku Jidai Japan, the Daimyo held war councils where every general could and had to make known his view regarding strategy, but the final say was the Daimyo's...
So orders where issued according to his plan, influenced or not by his generals, and he could take control or choose a "delegate"...
Same with agents, with the head/s of each commission be given free hand or directives...
Influence points is a very good idea, could determine if one gets pardoned, trusted or forced to commit seppuku :D
Kagemusha
09-05-2011, 13:57
I would definetely be interested in this.
Ituralde
09-05-2011, 14:44
None of you so far have mentioned player structure (in terms of houses or families or whatever we called them). While ironically it almost works best historically with STW2, I wouldn't mind giving the game a try without the usual strict hierarchy and associated bonuses. It would free of inter-player diplomacy to be more varied and less rigid. And it would mean that a smaller playerbase or dwindling numbers (IMO the bane of all our RPGs) would be less of an issue.
I agree that the feudal chain that was introduced in LotR would not have to apply to this game. All players would belong to the same clan without further subdivisions. The abilities would depend on whether you embody an agent or a general and wheter you have one of the nine major roles. Aside from that allegiances, and alliances are free to shift for whatever purpose that is required. It would be a much smaller and focussed experience.
TheLastDays
09-05-2011, 18:31
I had a very crazy idea: I don't have enough knowledge about historical Japan to say how accurate that would be but how about the following:
1) Every player represents the head of a "family" inside the clan. They'd be noble families and thus controlling the Samurai of the clan. Influence could then be used on a biased vote but the Daimyo doesn't necessarily follow the results of the vote. Influence also controls Samurai though, so for a certain amount of influence a family would control a certain amount of samurai units (maybe they would choose what kind of Samurai units). They can directly choose to send their Samurai on campaign and support the current goals or withhold that support. Control on the battlefield would still be up to the general in charge of the army stack but the family head decides if his Samurai will fight at all, similar to what was proposed about the Head Monk and monk units.
2) I also support that going for the Head Monk and monk units and maybe the Head Ninja for Kisho units, although they are hardly ever used anyway.
3) This would give the Daimyo direct control over the Ashigaru units only, making the influence of the other players much more tangible in the campaign. It would also effectively limit our access to special/samurai units, giving us an overall limit and forcing us to rely on Ashigaru as well, maybe the Daimyo will even rather rely on Ashigaru in some situations, instead of giving his subordinates too much power.
4) Not sure what to do with the Agent players though. Maybe they could be heads of families as well and just in control of their current agent or we find something else to involve them some more. The Head Monk would work well with the control of monk units but what if we decide to convert to christianity? We could also go ahead and just have one player as head agent for each category and have him control all his agents.
Oh, also I'm very interested in joining this :yes:
I like the idea about each ingame general as a family leader, which is historically correct, but I'd say all and even the Daimyo should've access to both ashigaru and samurai recruits...
As for the metsuke/ninja, their head could represent a lesser figure, but capable to recruit ashigaru and maybe special units; afterall these individuals had a koku salary given by the clan...
The monk is all set with sōhei units...
TheLastDays
09-05-2011, 18:59
Well the monk units only come into play as long as there is no conversion. Also, who'd be in charge for naval warfare.
What I forgot is, yes, of course the Daimyo would have his own amount of samurai units as well, just limited, just like the other family heads and I like the idea that this will limit the overall amount of samurai the clan will be able to field.
Also, any ideas as of yet, what difficulties to use and which clan to play? Some of the ingame mechanics should probably represent the clan, like someone already mentioned, the spiritual class would hold a lot of influence in the Uesugi clan while the Takeda would favor a skilled cavalry commander, etc.
If the Daimyo turns christian, we could even rp the clan splitting and maybe even killing the Daimyo :D
Otherwise instead of monks we'll have missionaries, and they could administer trade deals with europe, and with more influence maybe some admiral from the continent to oversee the Nanban ships...
For naval warfare, we'll need an ingame general (I had a general fighting only on ships in a campaign and he gained pirate/admiral retainers was fun ^^)
As for which clan I have no preferences, but imo we should pick something like the Hojo, Takeda, Mori or Shimazu: a clan with a lot of brothers and sons, since generals aren't as many as previous TW games...
Difficulty anything beside legendary, because we'll definately need the manual savegame feature :P
For the little I know about Sengoku Jidai Japan, the Daimyo held war councils where every general could and had to make known his view regarding strategy, but the final say was the Daimyo's...
That is my understanding, too.
With that, we could still have votes, but they are non-binding and the Daimyo makes the final decision in the end. Votes would in that case be like the Daimyo sitting in front of his council and saying: "Gentlemen, we have this problem to solve. Suggestions!"
Here is another though about controlling the navy.
At some point I thought that the CoFinance will have very little to do (just setting taxes to the maximum possible and exemptimg those cities which are about to revolt is a bit of a no-brainer, really), so perhaps he could be given control of the trade ships, or the whole Navy, or the decision of whether the CoF or CoW controls the navy is left to be made by the Daimyo later in the game and the two can bicker and rival each other for that additional power, if they want to.
As for difficulty, keep in mind that overall we will be much less efficient than if a single player was playing agianst the AI. I would suggest using either Normal or Hard. We do want to have the time to work on our careers and not just fight for survival all the time.
TheLastDays
09-05-2011, 19:30
I'm for normal or hard battle difficulty and hard or very hard campaign. I dislike battles that are dominated by huge stat advantages to either side.
I'm for normal or hard battle difficulty and hard or very hard campaign. I dislike battles that are dominated by huge stat advantages to either side.
I could be very wrong, but I think that in S2TW, the battle difficulty affects only the AI's skills, no stats...
Here is another though about controlling the navy.
At some point I thought that the CoFinance will have very little to do (just setting taxes to the maximum possible and exemptimg those cities which are about to revolt is a bit of a no-brainer, really), so perhaps he could be given control of the trade ships, or the whole Navy, or the decision of whether the CoF or CoW controls the navy is left to be made by the Daimyo later in the game and the two can bicker and rival each other for that additional power, if they want to.
Could work, but I don't think that only the CoW should be the most focused on the military: every general had the ability to muster troops, they were some sort of military staff's chief board...
I think it will add a nice feudal flavour having the troops scattered under several commanders...
TheLastDays
09-05-2011, 20:23
It could be hard to identify the regiments though. Foe example if two families have their bow samurai in one general's army, after a battle how do you identify which one belongs to whom?
Arjos, I think you're wrong, the AI gets stat bonuses on hard and very hard. They're not massive on hard though so I guess that would be fine.
Well each general should have his own troops, and maybe supply some to the Daimyo during invasions or threats, but they wouldn't want to merge troops with other families, could operate side by side if ordered so though: can simply have the 2 armies near eachother's AoEs...
They'd be fighting to gain more status and priviliges from the Daimyo...
TheLastDays
09-05-2011, 20:49
Well I was talking about players that would not have a general to represent them in the game (yet) to have armies/units too. That'd would give their opinions/votes weight because the Daimyo would want their troops to join the campaing of course. On the other hand, directly refusing to fight would reduce influence or even get you decclared a rebel...
Kogitsune
09-05-2011, 20:51
count me in!
Ah about the lesser figures, we could simply have the army under the ingame captain, and the agent could be overseeing it, unless he's busy with agent tasks...
About tracking which units everyone has, we could keep a post for that updated with each army composition, so if orded the agents could merge to support generals, as they aren't part of the war council...
This is just an idea to give agent players more to do, they could still fight battles, but with smaller armies and without a battle character development...
To summarize something like this:
Daimyo, has last word and decides the clan's conduct, can recruit any troop, can order vassals to supply troops.
Heir, can recruit any troop, oversees any operation.
CoW, can recruit only samurai and ashigaru units, oversees military operations.
CoS, can recruit only samurai and ashigaru units, oversees recruitment.
CoF, can recruit only samurai and ashigaru units, oversees taxation.
CoD, can recruit only samurai and ashigaru units, oversees constructions.
Admiral, can recruit only ships, oversees naval operations.
Head Metsuke, can recruit only ashigaru (maybe 1 samurai unit), oversees specific province/s given by the Daimyo, orders the other 4 metsuke.
Head Ninja, can recruit only ashigaru and kisho units, oversees the development of criminal buildings, orders the other 4 shinobi.
Head Monk, can recruit only ashigaru and monk units, oversees temples, orders the other 4 priests.
Checked the starting families for each clan:
Chosokabe, 1 son and 1 general.
Shimazu, 3 sons and 1 general.
Date, 1 son and 2 brothers.
Hojo, 3 sons and 1 general.
Mori, 3 sons.
Oda, 2 sons and 1 general.
Takeda, 1 son and 2 brothers.
Tokugawa 1 son and 1 general.
Uesugi 1 brother.
Unless Zim has different plans, Hojo, Mori and Shimazu seem the best choices...
Also we'll need to determine who will control the diplomacy, splitting tasks, for example CoF for trade etc? Commissioner of Foreign Affairs?
phonicsmonkey
09-06-2011, 00:16
Unless Zim has different plans, Hojo, Mori and Shimazu seem the best choices...
I think Hojo or Mori, just because I have played Shimazu in SP and am bored with them :laugh4:
There are some great ideas here and it's fantastic to see so many people interested. Looks like it's going to be a great game.
One thing I'm noticing here is a trend towards more complexity, which is great in some ways but also a problem. Our recent experiences in the V&V RPG and to a lesser extent in KotN is that over-ambitious rules sets lead to GM fatigue and slow pace of turns while everything gets worked out and checked.
So I'd lean away from implementing too much in terms of 'personal property' or 'personal armies' because it can be quite difficult to administer.
We want this thing to run lean so it keeps a good pace and keeps everyone involved and immersed for as long as possible...
I know Zim has been working on some rules so I think he'll post here soon with those for everyone's comment.
Welcome to all new posters. :bow:
It's been very encouraging to see how much interest this has generated, and all the different ideas being suggested. Things are a little hectic for the next day and a half (I work long shifts, thankfully followed by long weekends), especially while trying to get a draft ruleset together but I am reading every post. :yes:
A couple brief points:
-Phonics' note about complexity is well stated. Too much will bog things down and make it hard on the GM or players (depending which is given the responsibility for keeping track of a feature). On the other hand, we want to make things as fun as we can for the all of the players. It's a tough balance and one things start we may pause briefly from time to time to take a look at any things that end up obviously not working well.
-Hojo and Mori both sound great to me, although I have been secretly hoping for Oda just so I could name the RPG after my favorite old game, Nobunaga's Ambition :laugh4:. Mori is a little bit safer being on an end of the main island rather than the center, and the naval and trade situation is more interesting on that side of the island. On the other hand, Hojo is right in the center of the action and a very tough and enjoyable game.
-I was thinking around H/H or VH/VH difficulty, but it will depend on what people are comfortable with. Maybe we could do a poll as we get closer to start time.
For the little I know about Sengoku Jidai Japan, the Daimyo held war councils where every general could and had to make known his view regarding strategy, but the final say was the Daimyo's...
So orders where issued according to his plan, influenced or not by his generals, and he could take control or choose a "delegate"...
Same with agents, with the head/s of each commission be given free hand or directives...
Influence points is a very good idea, could determine if one gets pardoned, trusted or forced to commit seppuku :D
If we are making the meetings each ten turns be more of an advising council than a legislative body this could be an interesting way to keep influence. Maybe players get a base number of points per turn, modified by titles or being a high rank in game (so a rank 10 Head Ninja who serves as a Commissioner would be pretty well set, for example). These could then be spent on things like censures or bumping yourself in the recruitment queue (if we're letting all characters control troops). Maybe it's just a crazy idea...
TheLastDays
09-06-2011, 08:53
Well my idea wasn't really going for personal armies. What I meant was, that each player, representing a familiy, would control an amount of Samurai warriors. They would only go to fight if their family head would send them, so, based in influence, every person in the council would have control over a part of the warrior supply of the clan. That gives their opinions real weight in the council, for the Daimyo could choose to ignore the advice of a powerful character but would risk not having this family's men at his disposal in the upcoming battles. This would also effectively limit the overall amount of Samurai our clan can field.
That brings me to another point: There could be a mechanic to force the Daimyo to commit Seppuku if he isn't succesful or in other ways dishonors himself. I never tried to disband the Daimyo, is it possible?
I'm for VH/H difficulties and either the Hojo or Oda.
Tested and nope can't "disband" Daimyo, we could have him charge yari head on XD
Btw all my ideas were merely a brainstorm of feudal features :)
As for the clan I really don't have any preferences, was simply concerned about the lack of generals: for example in a campaign I got many sons to marry very early and in 60ish turns the grandchildren came of age, plus some random generals joined in the mean time...
Another time in a Uesugi campaign made Kenshin marry at the very beginning and that monk didn't consumate for the whole campaign :D
NightwindKing
09-06-2011, 15:31
lol I'm a bit overwhelmed by the discussion of ideas here, but I would be interested in participating, preferably as a general (if I'm going to actually devote time to it) or a metsuke.
Ill keep checking back, but let me know when things are decided/if I'm in/when we start/etc...
Kogitsune
09-06-2011, 16:58
Maybe playerst hat don't have a direct role in the game, can RP themselves as important, known Samurai, whom carry a lot of weight in society, and thus are listened to?
I would be happy with either Mori or Hojo, with a slight preference for Hojo.
As for difficulty, can this be adjusted while the game is running?
So if we make a bad choice here, can it be recitfied?
For the term we take until the offices are re-considered, maybe we want this to be not 10 but eigther 8 or 12 turns = 2 or 3 full game years.
Oh, and wellcome Kogitsune :beam:
Kogitsune
09-06-2011, 18:39
thanks :-)
i've been lurking in here, waiting for a nice rpg to come along :)
I would be happy with either Mori or Hojo, with a slight preference for Hojo.
As for difficulty, can this be adjusted while the game is running?
So if we make a bad choice here, can it be recitfied?
For the term we take until the offices are re-considered, maybe we want this to be not 10 but eigther 8 or 12 turns = 2 or 3 full game years.
Oh, and wellcome Kogitsune :beam:
Battle difficulty can be adjusted via the option menu while a campaign is in progress, yes. Campaign difficulty however cannot. Due to the added complexity we are adding onto the Shogun 2 campaign with our meta-game, i suggest no higher than Hard for campaign difficulty.
TheLastDays
09-06-2011, 19:10
I would be happy with either Mori or Hojo, with a slight preference for Hojo.
As for difficulty, can this be adjusted while the game is running?
So if we make a bad choice here, can it be recitfied?
For the term we take until the offices are re-considered, maybe we want this to be not 10 but eigther 8 or 12 turns = 2 or 3 full game years.
Oh, and wellcome Kogitsune :beam:
You can alter the battle difficulty any time, methinks. Campaign difficulty is fixed for the whole campaign.
Here is a very bare bones rule set I've been working on. It does not yet include all of the features discussed and is just meant a base structure to build on, change, or discard as we see fit. Which features haven't been included yet is not an indication regarding their merit but more a matter of time. I wanted to get something posted so that people couild comment on the rules so far and how they may want to incorporate other things we've talked about. :bow:
The cheesy name, Clan, and difficulty settings are just fill ins until we decide those for real.
Also, partially off subject, but preliminary testing shows captains very resilient to merging and splitting troops up, and even having a general merged into then out of an army. Some more work is needed but captains might be easier to integrate into the rpg than initially suspected.
A few quick thoughts:
-Disobeying orders for the agent missions: Should there be an in-game penalty beyond the risk of being censured?
-Influence: Weighted system for censure votes as given or changed to some sort of accumulated points system where points are spent to cause/defend against censures, maybe to avoid penalties for disobeying orders if we add them?
-Civil War rules: I will be adding these
-Daimyo: Should their be any special way to censure/otherwise punish an extremely unpopular Daimyo? Appointing Commissions and non binding Councils make him very powerful. Is it too much?
-Censures: Do the levels seem fair? Should it be harder to pass higher level ones beyond people being reluctant to administer the higher punishments, and can too many people make censure attempts (influence points that could be spent or lost might prevent censure spam)
-Funding agent missions: Most missions cost money. Should head agents have a "fund" that is withdrawed when they or their people undertake missions or should they be allowed free reign to try with the Supply Commissioner picking up the pieces as far as what money's left at the end of the turn. Censures could e an ingame way to keep ninjas and Metsukes from being too mission happy. And speaking of agent money...
-Monk troops: Should these instead be ordered by the Warfare Commissioner but controlled by the Head Monk, or should the Head Monk have some way to have to pay for them since he controls them? The second is a little limiting but gives the Head Monk more independence.
So, as a base structure, any much needed changes, big mistakes, or need to scrap to just scrap it all as terrible?
Rules
Hojo Rising
1. General
(a). - Game Settings:
TWS2
Hard Campaign, Very Hard Battles.
Clan Hojo
Large Unit Size
Battle Timer On
Show CPU Moves
Manage All Settlements
(b). - Avatars: Each player will roleplay a member of one of the prominent families of the Hojo clan. On joining the game, each player will choose an avatar to represent their character. Avatars can be in-game Generals, Captains or any of the different types of agents. They will control their character on the game map as well as, if applicable, any armies they command.
(c). - Battles: A player whose avatar leads an army that is involved in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved. If a player cannot fight a battle that is assigned to them, the battle may also be fought by any player whose avatar will also be present in the battle. Under no circumstances will a battle be fought by a player whose avatar is not present in the battle. If there is no player available to fight a battle, it must be autoresolved. If there are no allocated avatars involved in the battle at all, it must be autoresolved.
(d) - Game Management: At the start of each turn, the Supply Commissioner will post an seasonal report on the events of the last turn, including a save game file for the new turn. After the annual report is posted, players will have at least 24 hours to download the save, and make their personal moves. Players can move their avatars, move any unit or fleet their avatar owns, and fight any battles against the AI that they are capable of fighting with their avatar’s army. Player may also move any unit, fleet, or avatar they have been given specific permission to move by the respective owner, as long as that permission is posted in a public thread. The Supply Commissioner may extend the time limit beyond 24 hours at his discretion, but all players are encouraged to act as swiftly as possible to keep the game moving. Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of an edict. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war resulting from an edict.
(e) - Game Master: Zim will serve as Game Master and is responsible for management of the game and enforcement of the Game Rules. Zim can delegate any of his powers to another person whenever he chooses.
2. - Ranks
(a). - Rank Gain and Loss: All players enter the game as prominent members of the Samurai class and in most cases heads of their family (with some exceptions for the latter in the cases of Monks and natural sons of the Daimyo). This gives them the right to participate in the Daimyo's councils and vote on matters such as censure. Players that have an in-game avatar will have a base rank depending on their avatar type (General, Captain, Ninja, Monk, Metsuke, or Geisha). Finally players may have additional special ranks conferring abilities and influence bonuses. Some of these are available to all avatars (chiefly the Commissioner ranks) and some are avatar type specific (heads of the agent types, heir, etc.
(b) - Base Ranks: These ranks automatically apply to new in-game avatars of the relevant type. The base ranks and positions are as follows:
Captain:
Requirements: Must be a captain attached to a troop unit.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
General:
Requirements: Must be an in-game faction general.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
Ninja:
Requirements: Must be an in-game Ninja agent
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
Metsuke:
Requirements: Must be an in-game Metsuke agent.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
Monk:
Requirements: Must be an in-game Monk agent.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session
(c) - Special Ranks: These ranks are held in addition to the base ranks. Where they differ special rank traits take precedence than those of the character's base rank. The special ranks and positions are as follows: Influence for special ranks is added on top of that for base ranks. Influence bonuses for multiple special ranks is cumulative.
Commissioner of Finance:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Finance. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) At any time the Commissioner of Finance may take the save and adjust the faction wide tax rate and/or set province specific tax exemptions.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Commissioner of Warfare:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Warfare. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) Once per turn may submit a list to the Commissioner of Supply of units to recruit in the different provinces and ports. This power does not apply to the Clan Capital or to monk units.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Commissioner of Development:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Development. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) Once per turn may submit a list to the Commissioner of Development of structures to build/upgrade in the different provinces. This power does not apply to the Clan Capital or to monk units.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Commissioner of Supply:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Supply. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) At the end of each turn the Commissioner of Supply takes control of the save. He moves all armies not controlled by a general or player led captain, and queues units and buildings in all provinces with the exceptions of the capital and monk units. Only units and buildings from the lists given by the Commissioners of Warfare and Development may be queued, but the Commissioner of Supply may choose which parts of the lists to fulfill, or choose not to recruit or engage in any construction that turn.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Daimyo:
Requirements: Must be the in-game Daimyo.
Influence: +3
Powers:
(1) Can propose a Censure any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Controls all faction diplomacy
(3) May take the save at any time and queue up units and/or construction within the capital province.
(4) Twice per term may give orders to the head ninja to be carried out by him or his subordinates before the end of the term.
(5) Appoints the 4 Commissioner at each Council. May also appoint a Commissioner midterm if an absence is created by a death, Censure, or abdication.
(6) May appoint a new heir at any time.
(7) This rank may not be lost via Censure
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other special rank.
Heir:
Requirements: Must be the in-game Heir.
Influence: +2
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) This rank may not be lost via Censure.
Head Ninja:
Requirements: The first ninja avatar created becomes the Head Ninja. Should he die or abdicate the rank passes to the highest skill player led ninja available.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Twice per term may give an order to a subordinate ninja to be finished before the next Council session.
Head Monk:
Requirements: The first monk avatar created becomes the Head Ninja. Should he die or abdicate the rank passes to the highest skill player led monk available.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Controls all Monk troop units and may merge the with other Clan armies or split them from an army at his discretion. Note that if the units are in a stack with a player led captain or general then that player fights the battle.
Head Metsuke:
Requirements: The first Metsuke avatar created becomes the Head Metsuke. Should he die or abdicate the rank passes to the highest skill player led Metsuke available.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Twice per term may give an order to a subordinate Metsuke to be finished before the next Council session.
3. - Government
(a) - Sessions: The Clan Council meets once every 8 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations but some actions (such as appointing new Commissioners) are generally limited to the actual Council meetings. Each session consists of 3 real time days of debate, followed by 2 real time days of voting if a rules change is proposed. Zim or anyone delegated by him can change the length of individual sessions at will.
(b) - Rule Changes: Rule Changes require a two-thirds majority of unweighted votes (1 vote per player) to pass. Rule Changes can permanently change the Game Rules. Any player can propose Rule Changes, regardless of IC rank. Zim does not vote. Game Rules are enforced by IC or OOC means, as the GM sees fit.
(f) - Influence: Each Noble’s voting power is equivalent to his total Influence. No Noble's Influence may ever be lower than 1. Influence is increased permanantly by 1 if a Noble marries a Princess of the royal family and 1 for each term a noble serves as Chancellor.
(c) - Censure: As outlined under the individual ranks in Section 2, player characters have the ability to call for a Censure of another character. Generally this is meant to be because a character has disobeyed an order or failed in such a way as to lose honor, but obviously political reasons may come into play as well. When a Censure is made the turn cannot be advanced for 48 hours. The first 24 hours are spent in debate in the Council thread about the validity of the censure, and then a poll is made with a 24 hour time limit. A Censure requires a two-thirds majority to pass.
The player proposing the Censure must choose the level of censure he is attempting to apply.
(1)Level One Censure: -1 influence for 2 turns
(2)Level Two Censure: -2 influence for 4 turns and imprisonment for 2 turns (so no in-game actions are permitted and excluded from certain votes
(3)Level Three Censure: -3 influence for 6 turns and imprisonment for 4 turns
(4)Level Four Censure: loss of all special ranks except those exempt under their descriptions in section 2.
5. - Armies
(a) - Armies: With the exception of Monk units all units in a stack led by a player controlled general or captain are under the control of that player and he may move them along with his character for as long as he wishes. If two different general led armies are merged together, each player keeps control of the units that were in their stack before the merging. Any stacks led by a non player captain are moved by the Commissioner of Supply.
(b) - Seizing Armies: Any General may take control of troops without a player led general or captain by merging his character into them. Only the Daimyo may instantly seize any army his avatar moves onto, regardless of the presence of a player general, unless that general is in a state of Civil War against the Daimyo. A General may not move his avatar onto an army owned by a General unless both Generals agree to the move beforehand. This rule does not apply to garrisons of settlement. Avatars and monk troops may never be seized.
(c) - Naval Fleets: Naval fleets are moved by the Supply Commissioner unless an in-game general is on board, in which case the general commands the fleet.
Sounds pretty good. Here are a few thoughts I have :
Censures :
We should make sure that we are not getting censure spam, in my opinion, as excessive debates about censuring will distract from actually playing the game. Censures should be an exception, rather than the rule (my opinion, anyway).
Monk troops :
I think the Head Monk should decide which troops to recruit at which temple. But of course he does not have any money of his own, so he has to “live on donations to the temple”, i.e. ask the Daimyo or the CoS for the funding he needs for that turn
Funding agent missions.
Like with monks, I think trying to keep track of a separate fund for each agent is going to make it overly complicated for Zim. Agents should be given free reign and leave the CoS to tear his hair out over the financial consequences. Or there can be situations where an agent is so close to completing his mission in the next turn, but desperately lacking the funds, leaving him to beg, cry, argue and threaten the CoS not to construct that castle or recruit those troops but let him have the money. It all adds to the drama of the game without getting Zim bogged down in recording and changing numbers on a piece of paper all the time.
For censures, maybe we can give a penalty for the proposer's influence if the censure fails...
I agree with Nigel for the rest too; while for the unpopular Daimyo the only solution is rebellion/civil war: where for example the unpopular Daimyo will go around looking for help making promises etc, so if the rebellion would fail, he will become a pupet figure giving more possibilities for further conflicts :)
Funding agent missions.
Like with monks, I think trying to keep track of a separate fund for each agent is going to make it overly complicated for Zim. Agents should be given free reign and leave the CoS to tear his hair out over the financial consequences.
I suddenly have this image of the CoS getting an expense report from the head ninja.
:shout: What do you mean 400 koku for use of Iko's public baths?!
:7ninja: Well, we needed to relax a bit after taking out that Metsuke.
phonicsmonkey
09-09-2011, 23:05
For censures, maybe we can give a penalty for the proposer's influence if the censure fails...
Yeah this is what I proposed and I think it's a good way to limit needless censuring, so long as influence plays important enough a role.
Should the penalty scale up with the level of censure?
Speaking of the nefarious Chosomonkey and his ideas, I forgot about another he mentioned that might give another thing for influence to apply to. That is choosing techs whenever we finish one. I like this idea, especially as many of the techs seem to be faction-wide cultural trends rather than something that only a single member of the faction would decide (for instance, I don't see the Daimyo or CoD getting up and saying "Our clan should work on their Chi"). Maybe a short (24 hours?) voting period when it comes up. After the first few are done it should come up infrequently enough not to slow the game.
phonicsmonkey
09-09-2011, 23:24
yeah! I like that idea, who came up with it? (:laugh4:)
yes I think the penalty should scale for a failed censure. trying to get someone stripped of their titles and finding that no-one supports you would result in quite the loss of face.
also we should have a 'double jeopardy' rule to prevent spamming censures for the same offence.
AND I notice that in your rules censure is not restricted to when an offence has been committed. perhaps we should make that restriction, to tie the censure directly to disobedience, which will cut out spurious, politically motivated censures?
Kogitsune
09-13-2011, 22:13
not sure about the number of prospect participants, but if there are a lot, might want to consider to make the commisioners non-avatar players?
TheLastDays
09-14-2011, 16:56
Nice rules so far, good job, Zim.
Maybe the penalty for a failed censure should be the same influence penalty they wanted to infrict on their "target" just without the imprisonment or title stripping. WOuld keep things simple.
Also, I still like the idea of every player controlling a part of the clan's Samurai "pool" sending to or keeping them from war when they see fit. That, in and of itself, would limit the Daimyo in how much he can go against the counsel of his subordinates.
Also I think maybe commissions should only be there for actual ingame generals... as long as we don't have enough general characters to fill them.
phonicsmonkey
09-15-2011, 02:28
Also, I still like the idea of every player controlling a part of the clan's Samurai "pool" sending to or keeping them from war when they see fit. That, in and of itself, would limit the Daimyo in how much he can go against the counsel of his subordinates.
Yeah I'm warming to this idea too provided we can implement it simply. Maybe we can tie the amount of the Samurai pool controlled to the influence level, making influence even more important? Apologies if that was already suggested...
Ok, so to make a list of things to add:
-Penalty for failed Censures (maybe influence penalty. Also making people immune to censures for a good number of turns after a failed one might lower censure spam)
-Write up some civil war rules
-Assuming no objections add in a way to vote on new techs to research as we finish the old.
-Funding agent missions: So far I like the idea that the agents can do whatever and the commissioners are left being annoyed at them if they overspend.
-Samurai (or monks in the head monk's case)...limit by rank or influence? Note this will add complexity. I think we can avoid making the economic side confusing but there will still be more work for the commissioners of warfare and supply. We'll need to keep track of who owns which samurai units and in what numbers and decide how we figure out who a newly recruited one "belongs" to (warfare commissioner makes the suggestion? Supply decides when he recruits?).
-Write up some civil war rules
Here are some thoughts about this:
Any player who is unhappy with the daimyo’s rule can become disobedient.
He would then receive a censure which he can accept and carry out – and that’s it.
Or he can choose not to accept it and turn to open rebellion = become a Rebel/Ronin.
The Daimyo can then order his loyal followers to hunt down the Rebel. The Rebel can try to persuade other players to join the rebellion.
Hunting down and apprehending a player would be done by bringing your in-game character into proximity (Area of Effect) of your target and use the following rules:
A Metsuke can be apprehended by another Metsuke, a General, a Captain or a Ninja of higher rank.
A Ninja can only be apprehended by a Metsuke of higher rank or another Ninja of higher rank.
A Monk can be apprehended by anyone, but the permission of the Head Monk is required for the arrest.
A Captain can only be apprehended by a General (without battle) or another Captain (with battle).
A General can only be apprehended by another General or Captain (both with battle)
For battles between Rebel and Loyalist armies, we could either play them online in Multiplayer or offline setting up an AI vs. AI custom battle.
TheLastDays
09-15-2011, 23:04
Yeah I'm warming to this idea too provided we can implement it simply. Maybe we can tie the amount of the Samurai pool controlled to the influence level, making influence even more important? Apologies if that was already suggested...
I think that was the idea, yes. Maybe something like 2 samurai units per influence point? Or even only 1. It all depends on how much we want to limit our clan's Samurai pool in general and how much power influence actually brings. I like the idea of having to rely on Ashigaru as well throughout the campaign, it's a shame we can't impose it on the AI as well.
phonicsmonkey
09-16-2011, 00:11
Here are some thoughts about this:
Any player who is unhappy with the daimyo’s rule can become disobedient.
He would then receive a censure which he can accept and carry out – and that’s it.
Or he can choose not to accept it and turn to open rebellion = become a Rebel/Ronin.
The Daimyo can then order his loyal followers to hunt down the Rebel. The Rebel can try to persuade other players to join the rebellion.
Hunting down and apprehending a player would be done by bringing your in-game character into proximity (Area of Effect) of your target and use the following rules:
A Metsuke can be apprehended by another Metsuke, a General, a Captain or a Ninja of higher rank.
A Ninja can only be apprehended by a Metsuke of higher rank or another Ninja of higher rank.
A Monk can be apprehended by anyone, but the permission of the Head Monk is required for the arrest.
A Captain can only be apprehended by a General (without battle) or another Captain (with battle).
A General can only be apprehended by another General or Captain (both with battle)
For battles between Rebel and Loyalist armies, we could either play them online in Multiplayer or offline setting up an AI vs. AI custom battle.
So far with censure we have something like this:
- someone disobeys an order from their direct commander
- the commander has a chance to censure or let it slide
- if he chooses to censure, he picks a level and everyone votes on it
- if the vote is passed, the penalty is applied automatically
- if it fails, the commander receives an influence penalty and the disobedient character is immune to any further censures for the same offence
So, with regard to Nigel's suggestion, we could say that this applies to disobedience to anyone except the Daimyo, which would be a special case and dealt with differently. Would there be a vote on a censure levied by the Daimyo or would it simply either be accepted or not (triggering rebellion)? I think the second makes more sense.
Also, for censure in general I think we should put in place a rule to handle the case where the commander decides not to censure. It would be nice if he could retain the option for a time (for example if he wanted to do some behind-the-scenes work to find out the chance of his censure being accepted in the vote), but there should be a time limit on it so that he can't have it hanging over the disobedient character's head for ever and blackmail him.
So, 2 or 3 turns or something?
Retaining the option seems something that would encourage spam to me...
And I agree that censure on Daimyo is meaningless, as he's "above the law", only way should be to take up arms...
phonicsmonkey
09-16-2011, 08:20
Retaining the option seems something that would encourage spam to me...
I guess what I'm getting at is sometimes the only people who know that an order has been disobeyed will be the commander and his vassal (not sure if that's the right word). I can imagine a situation where it might take a turn or two for the commander to discover the vassal has been disobedient. Also, I can imagine a situation where he goes "Oh! I've been disobeyed! I really want to stick it to that guy but I'm not sure I have the support. Let me sneak around and see who might back me on this one..."
Both of those situations seem fun to me and so I think you should be able to censure someone for something for up to x turns after the actual act of disobedience. The limit is there to avoid the constant threat of censure for acts committed a long time in the past - this should encourage acts of disobedience, which should be good for the game!
The question then becomes, what is x? 3, 4, 5?
Personally I'd go for 4 turns = 1 year.
Once a matter has been covered by snow, let it rest. :clown:
It also offers some time for the offender (retainer, subordinate) to talk to his liege and perhaps explain the reasons for his actions, ask forgiveness and offer amends. But at the same time gives a strikt deadline for the commander to decide if he wants to censure or not and not let the matter drag on for ages.
Still, I hope censures will be the exception and not daily business and that we will have our hands so full of work with building our empire that we will have to work together and not spend time fighting each other.
phonicsmonkey
09-16-2011, 09:57
Still, I hope censures will be the exception and not daily business and that we will have our hands so full of work with building our empire that we will have to work together and not spend time fighting each other.
I think we'd like a healthy balance of both!
By the way Nigel, I've been meaning to ask you how the other TWS2 RPG you were in worked out? The one started by emotion_name and hosted offsite?
Yes, a healthy balance of both would be it :2thumbsup:
As for the RPG started by emotion_name, sadly I have to say that one did not go beyond turn 2.
It is not that it hit a technical glitch or conceptual dead end, but rather players just stopped responding. Especially, one key character, who needed to make a decision before we could go on, seemed to turn inactive. Emotion_name even PMed and chatted to him, and "yes, I am still interested in playing and will post something soon". But then he never did. Technically the game is still going, but there has been no activity for almost 4 weeks now.
I believe we are better set up here at the org, as we have a lot of players with a long history of RPGs and Hotseats and I would think that people here tend to stick to what they have started. It may still be good to have some way of making sure that a drop out or non-responding player does not hold up the game for too long.
Cecil XIX
09-16-2011, 16:19
Ok, so to make a list of things to add:
-Penalty for failed Censures (maybe influence penalty. Also making people immune to censures for a good number of turns after a failed one might lower censure spam)
-Write up some civil war rules
-Assuming no objections add in a way to vote on new techs to research as we finish the old.
-Funding agent missions: So far I like the idea that the agents can do whatever and the commissioners are left being annoyed at them if they overspend.
-Samurai (or monks in the head monk's case)...limit by rank or influence? Note this will add complexity. I think we can avoid making the economic side confusing but there will still be more work for the commissioners of warfare and supply. We'll need to keep track of who owns which samurai units and in what numbers and decide how we figure out who a newly recruited one "belongs" to (warfare commissioner makes the suggestion? Supply decides when he recruits?).
I agree with all of these. Regarding censure spam, I think we can minimize the number of censure attempts with the penalty, but I'm also worried that having to stop the game every time there's an attempted censure will get old fast. Maybe vote on each censure at the next Council Meeting?
Hello all!
I am willing to play a minor part (as this is my first TW RPG) but I like the idea of it.
phonicsmonkey
09-16-2011, 22:25
I'm also worried that having to stop the game every time there's an attempted censure will get old fast. Maybe vote on each censure at the next Council Meeting?
Do we have to stop the game? Can't we have a vote running concurrently with the rest of the game proceeding? A time limit could be imposed for votes to be cast and if you don't vote it is counted as an abstention? That way, no delays
Cecil XIX
09-17-2011, 05:55
Do we have to stop the game? Can't we have a vote running concurrently with the rest of the game proceeding? A time limit could be imposed for votes to be cast and if you don't vote it is counted as an abstention? That way, no delays
Yes, that sounds fine as well. Also, welcome kptb42! TW RPGs are what got me into the Org community as well! (I'm assuming it didn't count that I would ask for tech support for Medieval I every few months. :clown:)
This is taking shape nicely. :smile:
I just want to let you guys know that I will be away for a 2 week vacation now.
Just in case you are progressing so far, that you want to start before I return, that would be fine by me. You can assign me my role and the gamemaster can make my first move. Then again, this may take some more time before it starts. But I just dont want my vacation to be the hold up for everyone.
TheLastDays
09-20-2011, 18:33
How are we going to distribute roles? First come first serve? Or should we do a random role between all players and the first can pick first and so on?
It's been done differently from game to game. In the past sometimes the main starting roles were given to players who were experienced and known to be active in prior games. I've not noticed this to make much difference in how the game plays out. We've had very experienced members have to drop out and completely new players become among the most active for the whole game.
After the rules are hashed out I plan on opening a signup thread where people can post that they still intend to play (and of course I'll add anyone to the list like Nigel who have stated they're in but that they'll be gone for a while). From there I'll find a way to randomly assign a player order and that will be the order they get to choose.
The last few days have been a blur of overtime and being sick but I have a little bit of time off (about a day and a half followed by a day of work and another half day off....yeah, my schedule is complicated right now) so I'm going to incorporate the suggested rules changes during that time. I think at that point we'll be pretty well set and just need to give the rules a look and some minor changes before getting the signup.
Cecil XIX
09-29-2011, 03:15
Can't wait!
Kogitsune
10-01-2011, 13:48
what he said
Hi guys,
just to let you know that I am back and ready to take part or help where help is needed with this.
Hello guys,
I have been in touch with Zim and he has been busy with doing overtime at work lately. He is still at it writing the rules and I promised him to help by drafting something about the civil war rules and thinking about how the ownership of samurai units could be made to work.
So here is my go at Samurai Unit Rules:
Ownership of samurai units by players is a neat idea and would give more importance to the “minor” characters, like Metsuke, Ninja, etc. However, there are two main hurdles/risks which we have to avoid.
Keeping track of unit ownership could be so time consuming that it becomes a real burden on the game master (i.e. Zim) and slows the game down.
We could loose track and end up arguing about who owns which unit.
The following rules are intended to avoid these risks.
Each player acts as a member of a noble family and is entitled to raise as many samurai units as he has influence points.
If the daimyo and his commissioners decide that they need another samurai unit, the daimyo chooses one nobleman and honours him by letting him raise that unit. The money comes out of the clan treasury (so we don’t need individual funds for each player). The nobleman is then expected to send his unit to serve under the command of whomever the war council has decided.
Each player is responsible to keep track of his own samurai units.
If we loose track and end up with some samurai owned by no one – or two noblemen claiming ownership of the same unit of samurai- this unit goes under the direct control of the daimyo.
If a nobleman looses influence points for whatever reason, he can keep all his samurai units, but cannot raise more until he has again more influence points than units.
After a battle, a general can request permission from a nobleman to merge his depleted samurai unit with a larger unit. The nobleman is expected to grant this permission unless he has a good reason not to. A good daimyo will consider to compensate the nobleman for the loss of his unit (e.g. by giving him permission to raise a new one at the next opportunity).
I hope these rules will enable us to play with ownership of samurai units. Especially, Zim, let me know if you think that letting players keep track of their own units themselves will work and you are happy to allow that. I guess it means that we are all willing to play along in good faith, but I am sure but I am sure the players here are prepared to do that.
Why let keep THE Samurai when influence points are lost?
If ppl lose those together with points, adds drama :)
And eases burden on treasury
Thanks for the help Nigel. :bow:
The only thing I'd wonder about is how to decide if a samurai unit is not owned by anyone. Does than mean noone cliams it? What if someone claims it but seem unlikely? I don't have any problem with people stretching to get ownership of a samurai unit but I wonder what it takes for one to go to Daimyo control.
Hello guys,
I have been in touch with Zim and he has been busy with doing overtime at work lately. He is still at it writing the rules and I promised him to help by drafting something about the civil war rules and thinking about how the ownership of samurai units could be made to work.
So here is my go at Samurai Unit Rules:
Ownership of samurai units by players is a neat idea and would give more importance to the “minor” characters, like Metsuke, Ninja, etc. However, there are two main hurdles/risks which we have to avoid.
Keeping track of unit ownership could be so time consuming that it becomes a real burden on the game master (i.e. Zim) and slows the game down.
We could loose track and end up arguing about who owns which unit.
The following rules are intended to avoid these risks.
Each player acts as a member of a noble family and is entitled to raise as many samurai units as he has influence points.
If the daimyo and his commissioners decide that they need another samurai unit, the daimyo chooses one nobleman and honours him by letting him raise that unit. The money comes out of the clan treasury (so we don’t need individual funds for each player). The nobleman is then expected to send his unit to serve under the command of whomever the war council has decided.
Each player is responsible to keep track of his own samurai units.
If we loose track and end up with some samurai owned by no one – or two noblemen claiming ownership of the same unit of samurai- this unit goes under the direct control of the daimyo.
If a nobleman looses influence points for whatever reason, he can keep all his samurai units, but cannot raise more until he has again more influence points than units.
After a battle, a general can request permission from a nobleman to merge his depleted samurai unit with a larger unit. The nobleman is expected to grant this permission unless he has a good reason not to. A good daimyo will consider to compensate the nobleman for the loss of his unit (e.g. by giving him permission to raise a new one at the next opportunity).
I hope these rules will enable us to play with ownership of samurai units. Especially, Zim, let me know if you think that letting players keep track of their own units themselves will work and you are happy to allow that. I guess it means that we are all willing to play along in good faith, but I am sure but I am sure the players here are prepared to do that.
phonicsmonkey
10-15-2011, 02:47
Why let keep THE Samurai when influence points are lost?
If ppl lose those together with points, adds drama :)
And eases burden on treasury
I like this idea but maybe we can add in that if the samurai are on campaign they wait until they are finished before disbanding - after all I can't see an honourable samurai simply deserting in the hour of need
Thanks for the help Nigel. :bow:
The only thing I'd wonder about is how to decide if a samurai unit is not owned by anyone. Does than mean noone cliams it? What if someone claims it but seem unlikely? I don't have any problem with people stretching to get ownership of a samurai unit but I wonder what it takes for one to go to Daimyo control.
Well, a “natural” cause for samurai units coming under the daimyo’s control would be if the nobleman dies (in battle, by assassination or whatever reason). His samurai would then fall under the daimyo’s command and he could decide if he wants to keep them or use them to reward another deserving clan member.
If we do want to play with ownership of samurai units, I guess we will need a way to keep track of them in public. Perhaps each player could post and maintain a post with his personal game information. Something like this:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Player: Nigel
In game character: Sugawara Akitada
Position: Metsuke (overseeing Sanuki)
Influence Points: 3
Samurai Retainers:
1 bow samurai, garrisoned at Tosa
1 katana samurai, serving under general Ishikawa (Phonicsmonkey)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course things would be much easier, if we could give units individual names, like we could in NTW. But I dont think this is possible in S2TW anymore.
deguerra
10-15-2011, 15:03
Sigh. Them and removing functions previously available...
phonicsmonkey
11-04-2011, 11:41
Ok, so to make a list of things to add:
-Penalty for failed Censures (maybe influence penalty. Also making people immune to censures for a good number of turns after a failed one might lower censure spam)
-Write up some civil war rules
-Assuming no objections add in a way to vote on new techs to research as we finish the old.
-Funding agent missions: So far I like the idea that the agents can do whatever and the commissioners are left being annoyed at them if they overspend.
-Samurai (or monks in the head monk's case)...limit by rank or influence? Note this will add complexity. I think we can avoid making the economic side confusing but there will still be more work for the commissioners of warfare and supply. We'll need to keep track of who owns which samurai units and in what numbers and decide how we figure out who a newly recruited one "belongs" to (warfare commissioner makes the suggestion? Supply decides when he recruits?).
Thought I'd try to get things moving a little here seeing as Zim is obviously still tied up at work.
Unfortunately I have little experience or inclination at drafting RPG rules - does someone (Nigel? Cecil?) want to volunteer to take a look at the list above and see what if anything we still need to discuss? Everything should be in the thread here if we can just pull it together somehow.
Then when Zim gets back he can review the ruleset and start the game.
TheLastDays
11-07-2011, 20:28
Still here, unfortunately I have little experience with drafting rules for something like this, just wanted to show my continued support :yes:
I may have a go at putting down a draft of the rules over the weekend. No chance to do it earlier than that, I'm afreaid.
Cecil, if you think you can get something done before then, please go ahead.
I have gone over the thread during the weekend and actually Zim has already written quite a large section of the rules on page 2. I have copied them here and added notes from other parts of this discussion where they fit in, as well as some text about civil war and samurai unit ownership. Hopefully this will create a draft of the rules, which is a big step closer to completion.
Let me know, guys, what you think. And especially, Zim, let us know if this is what yo had in mind for the game.
Hojo Rising
1. General
(a). - Game Settings:
TWS2
Hard Campaign, Very Hard Battles.
Clan Hojo
Large Unit Size
Battle Timer On
Show CPU Moves
Manage All Settlements
(b). - Avatars: Each player will roleplay a member of one of the prominent families of the Hojo clan. On joining the game, each player will choose an avatar to represent their character. Avatars can be in-game Generals, Captains or any of the different types of agents. They will control their character on the game map as well as, if applicable, any armies they command.
(c). - Battles: A player whose avatar leads an army that is involved in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved. If a player cannot fight a battle that is assigned to them, the battle may also be fought by any player whose avatar will also be present in the battle. Under no circumstances will a battle be fought by a player whose avatar is not present in the battle. If there is no player available to fight a battle, it must be autoresolved. If there are no allocated avatars involved in the battle at all, it must be autoresolved.
(d) - Game Management: At the start of each turn, the Supply Commissioner will post an seasonal report on the events of the last turn, including a save game file for the new turn. After the annual report is posted, players will have at least 24 hours to download the save, and make their personal moves. Players can move their avatars, move any unit or fleet their avatar owns, and fight any battles against the AI that they are capable of fighting with their avatar’s army. Player may also move any unit, fleet, or avatar they have been given specific permission to move by the respective owner, as long as that permission is posted in a public thread. The Supply Commissioner may extend the time limit beyond 24 hours at his discretion, but all players are encouraged to act as swiftly as possible to keep the game moving. Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of an edict. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war resulting from an edict.
(e) - Game Master: Zim will serve as Game Master and is responsible for management of the game and enforcement of the Game Rules. Zim can delegate any of his powers to another person whenever he chooses.
2. - Ranks
(a). - Rank Gain and Loss: All players enter the game as prominent members of the Samurai class and in most cases heads of their family (with some exceptions for the latter in the cases of Monks and natural sons of the Daimyo). This gives them the right to participate in the Daimyo's councils and vote on matters such as censure. Players that have an in-game avatar will have a base rank depending on their avatar type (General, Captain, Ninja, Monk, Metsuke, or Geisha). Finally players may have additional special ranks conferring abilities and influence bonuses. Some of these are available to all avatars (chiefly the Commissioner ranks) and some are avatar type specific (heads of the agent types, heir, etc.
(b) - Base Ranks: These ranks automatically apply to new in-game avatars of the relevant type. The base ranks and positions are as follows:
Captain:
Requirements: Must be a captain attached to a troop unit.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
General:
Requirements: Must be an in-game faction general.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
Ninja:
Requirements: Must be an in-game Ninja agent
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
Metsuke:
Requirements: Must be an in-game Metsuke agent.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
Monk:
Requirements: Must be an in-game Monk agent.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session
(c) - Special Ranks: These ranks are held in addition to the base ranks. Where they differ special rank traits take precedence than those of the character's base rank. The special ranks and positions are as follows: Influence for special ranks is added on top of that for base ranks. Influence bonuses for multiple special ranks is cumulative.
Commissioner of Finance:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Finance. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) At any time the Commissioner of Finance may take the save and adjust the faction wide tax rate and/or set province specific tax exemptions.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Commissioner of Warfare:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Warfare. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) Once per turn may submit a list to the Commissioner of Supply of units to recruit in the different provinces and ports. This power does not apply to the Clan Capital or to monk units.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Commissioner of Development:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Development. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) Once per turn may submit a list to the Commissioner of Development of structures to build/upgrade in the different provinces. This power does not apply to the Clan Capital or to monk units.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Commissioner of Supply:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Supply. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) At the end of each turn the Commissioner of Supply takes control of the save. He moves all armies not controlled by a general or player led captain, and queues units and buildings in all provinces with the exceptions of the capital and monk units. Only units and buildings from the lists given by the Commissioners of Warfare and Development may be queued, but the Commissioner of Supply may choose which parts of the lists to fulfill, or choose not to recruit or engage in any construction that turn.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Additional notes about Commissioners:• Commissioner for Finance - Determines tax rates and exemptions
• Commissioner for Warfare - Recruits military units
• Commissioner for Develop - Approves all construction
• Commissioner for Supply - Directs reinforcements
The Commissioner of Warfare and the Commissioner of Development have to present their budget wishes and argue their cases. Then the Commissioner of Supply makes the decision.
The Commissioner of Supply, in addition to moving troops around to join stacks, is the one who decides what exactly is built and ends the turn. The Commissioners of Warfare and Development give lists to him. The Supply Commissioner chooses which parts of the lists to fulfill (and can prioritize the lists or just not build anything) or can choose not to spend the money but can't recruit or build outside the lists. He also moves unled armies according to the Daimyo’s directions and ends the turn..
Daimyo:
Requirements: Must be the in-game Daimyo.
Influence: +3
Powers:
(1) Can propose a Censure any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Controls all faction diplomacy
(3) May take the save at any time and queue up units and/or construction within the capital province.
(4) Twice per term may give orders to the head ninja to be carried out by him or his subordinates before the end of the term.
(5) Appoints the 4 Commissioner at each Council. May also appoint a Commissioner midterm if an absence is created by a death, Censure, or abdication.
(6) May appoint a new heir at any time.
(7) This rank may not be lost via Censure
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other special rank.
Heir:
Requirements: Must be the in-game Heir.
Influence: +2
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) This rank may not be lost via Censure.
Head Ninja:
Requirements: The first ninja avatar created becomes the Head Ninja. Should he die or abdicate the rank passes to the highest skill player led ninja available.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Twice per term may give an order to a subordinate ninja to be finished before the next Council session.
Head Monk:
Requirements: The first monk avatar created becomes the Head Ninja. Should he die or abdicate the rank passes to the highest skill player led monk available.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Controls all Monk troop units and may merge the with other Clan armies or split them from an army at his discretion. Note that if the units are in a stack with a player led captain or general then that player fights the battle.
Head Metsuke:
Requirements: The first Metsuke avatar created becomes the Head Metsuke. Should he die or abdicate the rank passes to the highest skill player led Metsuke available.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Twice per term may give an order to a subordinate Metsuke to be finished before the next Council session.
Additional notes about Agents:
The Head Ninja (also called Shinobi) reports directly to the Daimyo who would have the power to direct all ninja activities for a given turn. If no specific orders are given by the Daimyo (and 'take no action' is an order) then the Head Ninja has discretion. The other ninjas do what the Head Ninja tells them unless there are no orders in which case they can do as they please (perhaps with restrictions around action against clans which are not enemies).
The Head Metsuke reports to the Commissioner for Finance who would have the power to direct which cities metsuke are to oversee (except in the case of no orders etc.). Except in wartime when the Commissioner for Warfare gets to appeal to the Daimyo for the release of specific metsuke to travel with armies or apprehend enemy agents. They will then be his to control until the Commissioner for Finance (or Head Metsuke) successfully appeals to the Daimyo for their release back to oversee towns.
The Monks are an independent force and report to no-one (except the Head Monk).
The Head Monk will get control over all monk troops. So he can try to build himself a monk army, or decide which Bow Monks or Naginata Monks go and join which army and for how long they stay there.
The general still decides the movement of the army and controls the monks in battle, but has to make sure he remains on good terms with the Temple if he wants to retain the service of the monk units.
All agents are allowed to choose their own traits and ancillaries when they level up, meaning they will mould their characters just like the FMs
Funding agent missions
Trying to keep track of a separate fund for each agent is going to make it overly complicated for Zim. Agents should be given free reign and leave the CoS to tear his hair out over the financial consequences. Or there can be situations where an agent is so close to completing his mission in the next turn, but desperately lacking the funds, leaving him to beg, cry, argue and threaten the CoS not to construct that castle or recruit those troops but let him have the money.
3. - Government
(a) - Sessions: The Clan Council meets once every 8 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations but some actions (such as appointing new Commissioners) are generally limited to the actual Council meetings. Each session consists of 3 real time days of debate, followed by 2 real time days of voting if a rules change is proposed. Zim or anyone delegated by him can change the length of individual sessions at will.
(b) - Rule Changes: Rule Changes require a two-thirds majority of unweighted votes (1 vote per player) to pass. Rule Changes can permanently change the Game Rules. Any player can propose Rule Changes, regardless of IC rank. Zim does not vote. Game Rules are enforced by IC or OOC means, as the GM sees fit.
(f) - Influence: Each Noble’s voting power is equivalent to his total Influence. No Noble's Influence may ever be lower than 1. Influence is increased permanantly by 1 if a Noble marries a Princess of the royal family and 1 for each term a noble serves as Chancellor.
(c) - Censure: As outlined under the individual ranks in Section 2, player characters have the ability to call for a Censure of another character. Generally this is meant to be because a character has disobeyed an order or failed in such a way as to lose honor, but obviously political reasons may come into play as well. When a Censure is made the turn cannot be advanced for 48 hours. The first 24 hours are spent in debate in the Council thread about the validity of the censure, and then a poll is made with a 24 hour time limit. A Censure requires a two-thirds majority to pass.
The player proposing the Censure must choose the level of censure he is attempting to apply.
(1)Level One Censure: -1 influence for 2 turns
(2)Level Two Censure: -2 influence for 4 turns and imprisonment for 2 turns (so no in-game actions are permitted and excluded from certain votes
(3)Level Three Censure: -3 influence for 6 turns and imprisonment for 4 turns
(4)Level Four Censure: loss of all special ranks except those exempt under their descriptions in section 2.
Additional notes about Censures:
In summary, a censure would go like this:
- someone disobeys an order from their direct commander
- the commander has a chance to censure or let it slide
- if he chooses to censure, he picks a level and everyone votes on it
- if the vote is passed, the penalty is applied automatically
- if it fails, the commander receives an influence penalty and the disobedient character is immune to any further censures for the same offence
Also, for censure in general we put in place a rule to handle the case where the commander decides not to censure. He can retain the option for a time (for example if he wanted to do some behind-the-scenes work to find out the chance of his censure being accepted in the vote), but there is a time limit on it so that he can't have it hanging over the disobedient character's head for ever and blackmail him.
The time limit for bringing forth a censure is 4 turns (= 1 game year).
As an alternative to the 48 hour time limit to decide on censures, we can also decide have the vote running concurrently with the rest of the game proceeding. A time limit of 2 turns is imposed for votes to be cast and if you don't vote it is counted as an abstention. That way, there are no delays for the rest of the game.
(d) - Choosing the Technology Research Path: Many of the technologies seem to be faction-wide cultural trends rather than something that only a single member of the faction would decide (for instance, we don't see the Daimyo or CoD getting up and saying "Our clan should work on their Chi"). There will be a short (24 hours) voting period when it comes up, collecting as many votes as possible in that time. After the first few technologies are researched it should come up infrequently enough not to slow the game.
5. - Armies
(a) - Armies: With the exception of Monk units all units in a stack led by a player controlled general or captain are under the control of that player and he may move them along with his character for as long as he wishes. If two different general led armies are merged together, each player keeps control of the units that were in their stack before the merging. Any stacks led by a non player captain are moved by the Commissioner of Supply.
(b) - Seizing Armies: Any General may take control of troops without a player led general or captain by merging his character into them. Only the Daimyo may instantly seize any army his avatar moves onto, regardless of the presence of a player general, unless that general is in a state of Civil War against the Daimyo. A General may not move his avatar onto an army owned by a General unless both Generals agree to the move beforehand. This rule does not apply to garrisons of settlement. Avatars and monk troops may never be seized.
(c) - Naval Fleets: Naval fleets are moved by the Supply Commissioner unless an in-game general is on board, in which case the general commands the fleet.
6. - Samurai Unit Rules
Ownership of samurai units by players is a neat idea and would give more importance to the “minor” characters, like Metsuke, Ninja, etc. However, there are two main hurdles/risks which we have to avoid.
Keeping track of unit ownership could be so time consuming that it becomes a real burden on the game master (i.e. Zim) and slows the game down.
We could loose track and end up arguing about who owns which unit.
The following rules are intended to avoid these risks.
Each player acts as a member of a noble family and is entitled to raise as many samurai units as he has influence points. This can be increased to 2 units per influence point if we find that our clan needs more samurai to survive (War Council voting decision).
If the daimyo and his commissioners decide that they need another samurai unit, the daimyo chooses one nobleman and honours him by letting him raise that unit. The money comes out of the clan treasury (so we don’t need individual funds for each player). The nobleman is then expected to send his unit to serve under the command of whomever the war council has decided.
Each player is responsible to keep track of his own samurai units.
If we loose track and end up with some samurai owned by no one – or two noblemen claiming ownership of the same unit of samurai- this unit goes under the direct control of the daimyo. This must not be exploited by deliberately disputing samurai units. The Gamemaster shall keep an eye on this and if he suspects a deliberate exploit, shall pass an appropriate punishment.
If a nobleman looses influence points for whatever reason, he can keep all his samurai units, but cannot raise more until he has again more influence points than units.
After a battle, a general can request permission from a nobleman to merge his depleted samurai unit with a larger unit. The nobleman is expected to grant this permission unless he has a good reason not to. A good daimyo will consider to compensate the nobleman for the loss of his unit (e.g. by giving him permission to raise a new one at the next opportunity).
A “natural” cause for samurai units coming under the daimyo’s control would be if the nobleman dies (in battle, by assassination or whatever reason). His samurai would then fall under the daimyo’s command and he could decide if he wants to keep them or use them to reward another deserving clan member.
If we do want to play with ownership of samurai units, we will need a way to keep track of them in public. For this, each player shall post and maintain a post with his personal game information. Something like this:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Player: Nigel
In game character: Sugawara Akitada
Position: Metsuke (overseeing Sanuki)
Influence Points: 3
Samurai Retainers:
1 bow samurai, garrisoned at Tosa
1 katana samurai, serving under general Ishikawa (Phonicsmonkey)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Playing with personal ownership of samurai units will add a lot of complexity and will only work if we are all willing to play along in good faith and not exploit the system. If it turns out to be too complex to handle during the game, the gamemaster (Zim) can decide to revert back to “normal play” and place all samurai units under the command of the daimyo and the commissioners.
7. - Civil War Rules
In general, a civil war will go like this: One or more players decide to revolt against the current daimyo. They use their armies to fight against the daimyo and his loyal players. If they win, their leader becomes the new daimyo.
The rules in detail:
If a player is dissatisfied with the way the daimyo rules the clan, he can decide to start a rebellion. To do so, he formally renounces his allegiance to the daimyo and declares a civil war. Each of the other players will then have to make a decision if they join the rebellion or remain loyal to the old ruler (and the player starting the rebellion will probably have ascertained the support of at least some other players by PM or else his usurpation may be short lived).
All ashigaru units remain under the command of the general who commands them.
All samurai units remain under the command of their respective nobleman, but if they are in a rebel army and the nobleman decides to join the loyalist faction, he has to order them to leave the army and “call them home” on the next turn. The same applies if a nobleman joins the rebels and has samurai units in a loyalist army.
- Recruiting (this one is tricky):
As we are not splitting the clan funds into individually owned funds, it is hard to determine who is entitled to how much money for recruitments. The way to deal with it is to say that: during a Civil War no side may recruit any new troops and has to fight out the war with the troops they have. This will also help to ensure that a Civil war is not dragging on for ages but will be brought to a swift, if hefty, conclusion.
- Fighting battles:
If a rebel and a loyalist army come into each others Area of Effect (AOE), they can fight each other. This can either be done by setting up an online MP battle, or offline using a corresponding custom battle where the player sets up the battle so that two AI faction fight it out between them (AI vs. human battles should not be used for civil wars, as the give an unfair advantage to the human player). After the battle all troops that have routed are removed from the campaign map (=essentially all troops of the loosing general and probably many troops of the winning general).
The defeated general himself, and his body guard, will not be “killed” in a civil war, but considered to be captured. His fate will be decided after the war by the victor.
- End of the Civil War
The civil war ends
if a rebel army captures the capital or
if the daimyo or the rebelling lord are defeated in battle or
if he daimyo or the rebelling lord decide to step down for the higher good of the clan.
- After the Civil war
The new daimyo (i.e. either the old daimyo or the rebel lord, depending on who won) decides whom he wants to pardon and re-instate into his office, and whom he orders to ensure that he will never again be a threat by acting in the honourable way of the samurai.
Cecil XIX
11-16-2011, 21:42
Looks great, Nigel! I'm sure I couldn't have done it as well.
My only concern is if disputed samurai units are handed over to the Daimyo, then he could conceivable have on of his allies dispute every samurai unit in the game and cause them all to be placed under the Daimyo's leadership. And what happens when the Daimyo disputes ownership?
Also, I think in the extra notes on commissioners the list should be in the same order they're discussed: Warfare, Development and Supply. That's not a big change obviously, but I think it'll make it easier to read.
So, shall we do a final poll to gauge participation?
phonicsmonkey
11-16-2011, 22:11
So, shall we do a final poll to gauge participation?
Good idea - maybe send it by pm to everyone who expressed an interest in this thread?
I'm still in by the way and I still want to be a ninja :2thumbsup:
Looks great to me. :yes: I like the spoilered notes. I think they'd be great to help out people wondering how rules will be interpreted.
I'm thinking we could do signups soon and plan a start date after the holidays? That gives some time to iron out any last kinks, and the rules seem very close to completion as is.
phonicsmonkey
12-12-2011, 09:41
yeah, let's do signups right now
I'm in and I still want to be a ninja! :ninja:
EDIT: doh!
I'd still be interested to play as a Captain or a minor General.
:duel:
I'm in, not sure about which character right now :)
phonicsmonkey
12-15-2011, 04:20
fyi at Zim's request I just went through the rules with a fine-toothed comb and my lawyer hat on (I'm not a lawyer by the way) and submitted some extensive comments for his consideration.
Hopefully this will help us get things underway!
"Some"? ~;p
Very helpful points in that pm, Phonics. I should be able to iron them out this weekend.
I'm thinking a start date at the end of the holidays.
fyi at Zim's request I just went through the rules with a fine-toothed comb and my lawyer hat on (I'm not a lawyer by the way) and submitted some extensive comments for his consideration.
Hopefully this will help us get things underway!
Ignoramus
12-15-2011, 08:02
I would love to join, but unfortunately my computer can't handle STWII. :bigcry:
ArcturUs
12-15-2011, 19:25
I finally got SWII to run on my pc yay :bounce:, but do you have a spot for me ?? :rolleyes:
Cecil XIX
12-17-2011, 23:21
I would love to join, but unfortunately my computer can't handle STWII. :bigcry:
That's a damn shame Igno, not just because of your absence but because Shogun II is an excellent game as well.
I take it by that smilie that the question is a joke but just in case the answer is of course and welcome aboard! ~:cheers:
Keep signups coming. I'm going to be addressing points brought up to me about the rules in the next day or so. I think once that's through we'll be about ready to start pending the holidays.
Iggy, have you tried the game? I was worried about my computer but it plays well. :yes: I can definately say that an rpg without you would not be the same (For Flemish Cloth! :charge:)
I finally got SWII to run on my pc yay :bounce:, but do you have a spot for me ?? :rolleyes:
ArcturUs
12-19-2011, 20:36
I take it by that smilie that the question is a joke but just in case the answer is of course and welcome aboard! ~:cheers:
Keep signups coming. I'm going to be addressing points brought up to me about the rules in the next day or so. I think once that's through we'll be about ready to start pending the holidays.
Iggy, have you tried the game? I was worried about my computer but it plays well. :yes: I can definately say that an rpg without you would not be the same (For Flemish Cloth! :charge:)
so when and where do I start?
I think the plan is to get this started after the Christmas holidays, i.e. early January.
Sorry for the wait. Rather than make the usual excuses about work I plan to push this through and get started. Rules update for discussion this coming Monday and a start date of roughly two weeks from now. :bow: The game will start with whatever rules we have decided on at the time with the chance to make revisions a few turns in.
phonicsmonkey
01-31-2012, 08:49
Hey Zim, need any help getting this started?
Cecil XIX
02-10-2012, 02:42
I have a suggestion to make: Once this RPG gets going, let's keep the threads in the Throne Room proper instead of giving it a subforum. If memory serves, this was how it was done with the original TW RPGs. Although there are no doubt other factors involved, I believe that sequestering TW RPGs in their own forum inhibits new player players from discovering them. In addition, I believe the reason roleplaying has become less common in hotseats may also have been an unintended consequence. I know concern has been expressed before about potential problems resulting from needing to have so many different threads in the Throne Room, but I believe we only need about four or more threads in order to accommodate a TW RPG. Whatever is lost in having extra threads will be made up for by making it easier to attract new players.
In any case, good luck Zim. I'm really looking forward to this.
phonicsmonkey
02-11-2012, 01:28
I have a suggestion to make: Once this RPG gets going, let's keep the threads in the Throne Room proper instead of giving it a subforum. If memory serves, this was how it was done with the original TW RPGs. Although there are no doubt other factors involved, I believe that sequestering TW RPGs in their own forum inhibits new player players from discovering them. In addition, I believe the reason roleplaying has become less common in hotseats may also have been an unintended consequence. I know concern has been expressed before about potential problems resulting from needing to have so many different threads in the Throne Room, but I believe we only need about four or more threads in order to accommodate a TW RPG. Whatever is lost in having extra threads will be made up for by making it easier to attract new players.
In any case, good luck Zim. I'm really looking forward to this.
I'm fine with this if it's what Zim wants. As I understand it the practice of creating game-specific sub-fora arose at the request of games masters who believed it benefited their games, not forum mods and a desire for tidiness.
Mithridate
02-20-2012, 17:58
One, I would very very much like to participate^^
Two, I would like to be the daimyo for better or worse
Three, If anyone here wants to play some shogun 2 MP campaign, Co-op or competetive please pm me! (or if you know som1 that would)
Part from that i really like the plan to choose the Hojo, they are by far the clan with the most choices and action going around making them a prime candidate.
We could give it a try including the threads in the main Throne Room forum rather than a sub forum. Maybe with a stickied thread with links to all the game's threads?
Welcome Mithridate. I'm not sure how initial characters will be alloted, but I think you could likely end up with the Daimyo role if you'd like. Noone else has expressed an interest that I'm aware of.
Worked on the rules some more. Minor tweaks from Phonics' pm suggestions to me (with some more we're hashing out).
Couple things in particular I'm unsure of:
Censure: Should the Daimyo be immune or have a different chart? "Imprisonment" seems an odd punishment for him.
Samurai Unit limits and the Daimyo: Should the Daimyo be exempt from the influence limit?
Should Monks have access to Samurai units?
Otherwise it's mainly the Civil War stuff I need to finish and we can start.
Agent funding: Let agents do what they like (barring orders) and the CoS is left to wring his hands?
Hojo Rising
1. General
(a). - Game Settings:
TWS2
Hard Campaign, Very Hard Battles.
Clan Hojo
Large Unit Size
Battle Timer On
Show CPU Moves
Manage All Settlements
(b). - Avatars: Each player will roleplay a member of one of the prominent families of the Hojo clan. On joining the game, each player will choose an avatar to represent their character. Avatars can be in-game Generals, Captains or any of the different types of agents. They will control their character on the game map as well as, if applicable, any armies they command.
(c). - Battles: A player whose avatar leads an army that is involved in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved. If a player cannot fight a battle that is assigned to them, the battle may also be fought by any player whose avatar will also be present in the battle. Under no circumstances will a battle be fought by a player whose avatar is not present in the battle. If there is no player available to fight a battle, it must be autoresolved. If there are no allocated avatars involved in the battle at all, it must be autoresolved.
(d) - Game Management: At the start of each turn, the Supply Commissioner will post an seasonal report on the events of the last turn, including a save game file for the new turn. After the annual report is posted, players will have at least 24 hours to download the save, and make their personal moves. Players can move their avatars, move any unit or fleet their avatar owns, and fight any battles against the AI that they are capable of fighting with their avatar’s army. Player may also move any unit, fleet, or avatar they have been given specific permission to move by the respective owner, as long as that permission is posted in a public thread. The Supply Commissioner may extend the time limit beyond 24 hours at his discretion, but all players are encouraged to act as swiftly as possible to keep the game moving. Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of an edict. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war resulting from an edict.
(e) - Game Master: Zim will serve as Game Master and is responsible for management of the game and enforcement of the Game Rules. Zim can delegate any of his powers to another person whenever he chooses.
2. - Ranks
(a). - Rank Gain and Loss: All players enter the game as prominent members of the Samurai class and in most cases heads of their family (with some exceptions for the latter in the cases of Monks and natural sons of the Daimyo). This gives them the right to participate in the Daimyo's councils and vote on matters such as censure. Players that have an in-game avatar will have a base rank depending on their avatar type (General, Captain, Ninja, Monk, Metsuke, or Geisha). Finally players may have additional special ranks conferring abilities and influence bonuses. Some of these are available to all avatars (chiefly the Commissioner ranks) and some are avatar type specific (heads of the agent types, heir, etc.
(b) - Base Ranks: These ranks automatically apply to new in-game avatars of the relevant type. The base ranks and positions are as follows:
Captain:
Requirements: Must be a captain attached to a troop unit.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
General:
Requirements: Must be an in-game faction general.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
Ninja:
Requirements: Must be an in-game Ninja agent
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
Metsuke:
Requirements: Must be an in-game Metsuke agent.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session.
Monk:
Requirements: Must be an in-game Monk agent.
Influence: 1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per Council Session
(c) - Special Ranks: These ranks are held in addition to the base ranks. Where they differ special rank traits take precedence than those of the character's base rank. The special ranks and positions are as follows: Influence for special ranks is added on top of that for base ranks. Influence bonuses for multiple special ranks is cumulative.
Commissioner of Finance:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Finance. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) At any time the Commissioner of Finance may take the save and adjust the faction wide tax rate and/or set province specific tax exemptions.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Commissioner of Warfare:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Warfare. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) Once per turn may submit a list to the Commissioner of Supply of units to recruit in the different provinces and ports. This power does not apply to the Clan Capital or to monk units.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Commissioner of Development:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Development. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) Once per turn may submit a list to the Commissioner of Development of structures to build/upgrade in the different provinces. This power does not apply to the Clan Capital or to monk units.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Commissioner of Supply:
Requirements: Any avatar type can become Commissioner of Supply. The rank is conferred by the Daimyo at each Council session or when no one holds the rank due to giving it up, the character dying, or loss due to censure. If the character is a general, they are given the rank in-game as well.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose one Censure per term at any time during the term itself or the Council following appointment. This ability and all others are lost upon loss of the rank.
(2) At the end of each turn the Commissioner of Supply takes control of the save. He moves all armies not controlled by a general or player led captain, and queues units and buildings in all provinces with the exceptions of the capital and monk units. Only units and buildings from the lists given by the Commissioners of Warfare and Development may be queued, but the Commissioner of Supply may choose which parts of the lists to fulfill, or choose not to recruit or engage in any construction that turn.
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other Commissioner ranks at the same time.
Additional notes about Commissioners:• Commissioner for Finance - Determines tax rates and exemptions
• Commissioner for Warfare - Recruits military units
• Commissioner for Develop - Approves all construction
• Commissioner for Supply - Directs reinforcements
The Commissioner of Warfare and the Commissioner of Development have to present their budget wishes and argue their cases. Then the Commissioner of Supply makes the decision.
The Commissioner of Supply, in addition to moving troops around to join stacks, is the one who decides what exactly is built and ends the turn. The Commissioners of Warfare and Development give lists to him. The Supply Commissioner chooses which parts of the lists to fulfill (and can prioritize the lists or just not build anything) or can choose not to spend the money but can't recruit or build outside the lists. He also moves unled armies according to the Daimyo’s directions and ends the turn..
Daimyo:
Requirements: Must be the in-game Daimyo.
Influence: +3
Powers:
(1) Can propose a Censure any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Controls all faction diplomacy
(3) May take the save at any time and queue up units and/or construction within the capital province.
(4) Twice per term may give orders to the head ninja to be carried out by him or his subordinates before the end of the term.
(5) Appoints the 4 Commissioner at each Council. May also appoint a Commissioner midterm if an absence is created by a death, Censure, or abdication.
(6) May appoint a new heir at any time.
(7) This rank may not be lost via Censure
Penalties:
(1) Cannot hold any other special rank.
Heir:
Requirements: Must be the in-game Heir.
Influence: +2
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) This rank may not be lost via Censure.
Head Ninja:
Requirements: The first ninja avatar created becomes the Head Ninja. Should he die or abdicate the rank passes to the highest skill player led ninja available.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Twice per term may give an order to a subordinate ninja to be finished before the next Council session.
Head Monk:
Requirements: The first monk avatar created becomes the Head Monk. Should he die or abdicate the rank passes to the highest skill player led monk available.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Controls all Monk troop units and may merge the with other Clan armies or split them from an army at his discretion. Note that if the units are in a stack with a player led captain or general then that player fights the battle.
Head Metsuke:
Requirements: The first Metsuke avatar created becomes the Head Metsuke. Should he die or abdicate the rank passes to the highest skill player led Metsuke available.
Influence: +1
Powers:
(1) Can propose up to 2 Censures any time either during the Council or the regular term.
(2) Twice per term may give an order to a subordinate Metsuke to be finished before the next Council session.
Additional notes about Agents:
The Head Ninja (also called Shinobi) reports directly to the Daimyo who would have the power to direct all ninja activities for a given turn. If no specific orders are given by the Daimyo (and 'take no action' is an order) then the Head Ninja has discretion. The other ninjas do what the Head Ninja tells them unless there are no orders in which case they can do as they please (perhaps with restrictions around action against clans which are not enemies).
The Head Metsuke reports to the Commissioner for Finance who would have the power to direct which cities metsuke are to oversee (except in the case of no orders etc.). Except in wartime when the Commissioner for Warfare gets to appeal to the Daimyo for the release of specific metsuke to travel with armies or apprehend enemy agents. They will then be his to control until the Commissioner for Finance (or Head Metsuke) successfully appeals to the Daimyo for their release back to oversee towns.
The Monks are an independent force and report to no-one (except the Head Monk).
The Head Monk will get control over all monk troops. So he can try to build himself a monk army, or decide which Bow Monks or Naginata Monks go and join which army and for how long they stay there.
The general still decides the movement of the army and controls the monks in battle, but has to make sure he remains on good terms with the Temple if he wants to retain the service of the monk units.
All agents are allowed to choose their own traits and ancillaries when they level up, meaning they will mould their characters just like the FMs
Funding agent missions
Trying to keep track of a separate fund for each agent is going to make it overly complicated for Zim. Agents should be given free reign and leave the CoS to tear his hair out over the financial consequences. Or there can be situations where an agent is so close to completing his mission in the next turn, but desperately lacking the funds, leaving him to beg, cry, argue and threaten the CoS not to construct that castle or recruit those troops but let him have the money.
3. - Government
(a) - Sessions: The Clan Council meets once every 8 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations but some actions (such as appointing new Commissioners) are generally limited to the actual Council meetings. The 8 turns between two sessions comprises a "term". Each session consists of 3 real time days of debate, followed by 2 real time days of voting if a rules change is proposed. Zim or anyone delegated by him can change the length of individual sessions at will.
(b) - Rule Changes: Rule Changes require a two-thirds majority of unweighted votes (1 vote per player) to pass. Rule Changes can permanently change the Game Rules. Any player can propose Rule Changes, regardless of IC rank. Zim does not vote. Game Rules are enforced by IC or OOC means, as the GM sees fit.
(c) - Influence: Each player avatar’s voting power is equivalent to his total Influence. No avatar's Influence may ever be lower than 1. Influence is increased permanantly by 1 if an avatar marries a into the Daimyo's family and 1 for each term served in one of the Commissioner roles.
(d) - Censure: As outlined under the individual ranks in Section 2, player characters have the ability to call for a Censure of another character. Generally this is meant to be because a character has disobeyed an order or failed in such a way as to lose honor, but obviously political reasons may come into play as well. When a Censure is made the turns can be continued while a debate is conducted in the Council thread about the validity of the censure and a poll is made for players to express their character's opinions about the proposed Censure. A Censure requires a two-thirds influence-weighted majority to pass and all votes must be cast within two turns from the turn in which the Censure is proposed, otherwise that character is considered to have abstained from the vote.
The player proposing the Censure must choose the level of censure he is attempting to apply.
(1)Level One Censure: -1 influence for 2 turns
(2)Level Two Censure: -2 influence for 4 turns and imprisonment for 2 turns (so no in-game actions are permitted and excluded from certain votes
(3)Level Three Censure: -3 influence for 6 turns and imprisonment for 4 turns
(4)Level Four Censure: loss of all special ranks except those exempt under their descriptions in section 2.
A player can decide not to make an immediate Censure but once 4 turns has passed since the supposed offense no Censure can then be brought forth for that offense.
Additional notes about Censures:
In summary, a censure would go like this:
- someone disobeys an order from their direct commander
- the commander has a chance to censure or let it slide
- if he chooses to censure, he picks a level and everyone votes on it
- if the vote is passed, the penalty is applied automatically
- if it fails, the commander receives an influence penalty and the disobedient character is immune to any further censures for the same offence
[B](e) - Technology Research Paths: Whenever the current tech has been researched there will be a short (24 hours) voting period following the creation of a poll thread by to decide the new one, and as many votes as possible are collected. Votes are weighted by avatar influence with the option with the greatest number being chosen for research. During the start of game session the first research tech will be put up for vote.
4. - Armies
(a) - Armies: With the exception of Monk units all units in a stack led by a player controlled general or captain are under the control of that player and he may move them along with his character for as long as he wishes. If two different general led armies are merged together, each player keeps control of the units that were in their stack before the merging. Any stacks led by a non player captain are moved by the Commissioner of Supply.
(b) - Seizing Armies: Any General may take control of troops without a player led general or captain by merging his character into them. Only the Daimyo may instantly seize any army his avatar moves onto, regardless of the presence of a player general, unless that general is in a state of Civil War against the Daimyo. Garrisons of a settlement may not be seized. Samurai units, Avatars and monk troops also may never be seized.
(c) - Naval Fleets: Naval fleets are moved by the Supply Commissioner unless an in-game general is on board, in which case the general commands the fleet.
6. - Samurai Unit Rules
(a) - Raising Samurai Units: If the Daimyo decides the faction needs Samurai units he can have them raised and assigned to the ownership of a player avatar. This recruitment is paid out of the faction's general funds and cannot be cancelled by the Commissioner of Warfare. A player avatar can only own a number of samurai units equal to their influence. If a player ends up with more samurai units than influence they do not lose them but cannot have any more assigned.
(b) - Controlling Samurai Units: Samurai units owned by a player can only be moved by that player regardless of whether they are in a led stack or not. They are exempt from the army seizure rules in 4b.
(c) -Keeping Track of Samurai Units: Players must keep track of their Samurai units. A separate thread will be alloted for this and other player avatar information. Players should note number of units, type, and location (serving with General x is a valid location). A Samurai unit whose ownership is not so noted and whose owner can't be ascertained (or is disputes among multiple players) falls tot he control of the Daimyo. Below is an example post detailing a players Samurai units.
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Player: Nigel
In game character: Sugawara Akitada
Position: Metsuke (overseeing Sanuki)
Influence Points: 3
Samurai Retainers:
1 bow samurai, garrisoned at Tosa
1 katana samurai, serving under general Ishikawa (Phonicsmonkey)
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Mithridate
03-05-2012, 19:29
Id gladly take the Daimyo, id like to think of myself as a solid Shogun2player so ill lead our clan to greatness! While really fueling the fires of discontent among my subjects.
I think im both perfect and poorly suited for the role, that will make it interesting to say the least!
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