'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' Repealed; US Military Inexplicably Continues to Fight

[PanzerJaeger]

The law that has cost over 14,000 soldiers their jobs and the nation countless talented young people willing to serve was ended (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/52612909-68/military-pentagon-repeal-law.html.csp?page=1) today at 12:01 AM.

The nation awaits the lack of recruits, disruption of readiness, collapse of unit cohesion, order and discipline, and inability to fight future conflicts that have been predicted. So far... hasn't happened. Some of us hold a higher opinion of the capabilities of the average US soldier, sailor, and airman.



WASHINGTON - After years of debate and months of final preparations, the military can no longer prevent gays from serving openly in its ranks.

Repeal of a 1993 law that allowed gays to serve only so long as they kept their sexual orientation private took effect Tuesday at 12:01 a.m. EDT.

Some in Congress still oppose the change, but top Pentagon leaders have certified that it will not undermine the military's ability to recruit or to fight wars.

The Army was distributing a business-as-usual statement Tuesday saying simply, "The law is repealed," and reminding soldiers to treat each other fairly.

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, scheduled a Pentagon news conference to field questions about the repeal. And a bipartisan group of congressional supporters of allowing openly gay service planned a news conference on Capitol Hill.

Gay advocacy groups planned a series of celebrations across the country.

At a San Diego bar, current and former troops danced and counted down to midnight. "You are all heroes," Sean Sala, a former Navy operations specialist, said. "The days of your faces being blacked out on the news - no more."

The head of Pentagon personnel put out a memo to the work force at 12:01 a.m. EDT. "All service members are to treat one another with dignity and respect regardless of sexual orientation," the memo from Clifford Stanley said.

"The Department of Defense is committed to promoting an environment free from personal, social or institutional barriers that prevent service members from rising to the highest level of responsibility possible regardless of sexual orientation."

In Iraq, a spokesman for U.S forces put out a statement Tuesday morning noting that all troops there had been trained for the change.

Pentagon press secretary George Little said Monday that the military is adequately prepared for the end of the current policy, commonly known as "don't ask, don't tell," under which gays can serve as long as they don't openly acknowledge their sexual orientation and commanders are not allowed to ask.

"No one should be left with the impression that we are unprepared. We are prepared for repeal," Little said.

Last week, the Pentagon said 97 percent of the military has undergone training in the new law.

For weeks the military services have accepted applications from openly gay recruits, while waiting for repeal to take effect before processing the applications.

With the lifting of the ban, the Defense Department will publish revised regulations to reflect the new law allowing gays to serve openly. The revisions, such as eliminating references to banned homosexual service, are in line with policy guidance that was issued by top Pentagon officials in January, after Obama signed the legislation that did away with the "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

The lifting of the 18-year-old ban also brings a halt to all pending investigations, discharges and other administrative proceedings that were begun under the Clinton-era law.

Existing standards of personal conduct, such as those pertaining to public displays of affection, will continue regardless of sexual orientation.

There also will be no immediate changes to eligibility standards for military benefits. All service members already are entitled to certain benefits and entitlements, such as designating a partner as one's life insurance beneficiary or as designated caregiver in the Wounded Warrior program.

Gay marriage is one of the thornier issues. An initial move by the Navy earlier this year to train chaplains about same-sex civil unions in states where they are legal was halted after more than five dozen lawmakers objected. The Pentagon is reviewing the issue.

Service members who were discharged under the "don't ask, don't tell" law will be allowed to re-enlist, but their applications will not be given priority over those of any others with prior military experience who are seeking to re-enlist.

Some in Congress remain opposed to repeal, arguing that it may undermine order and discipline.

A leading advocate, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, said Monday the repeal is overdue.

"Our nation will finally close the door on a fundamental unfairness for gays and lesbians, and indeed affirm equality for all Americans," the California Democrat said.

[Lemur]

An excellent day for our military.

[Major Robert Dump]

Doesn't bother me one bit.

However, it will be an EO nightmare. Women get imaginary offended. Minorities get imaginary offended. Promotions are sometimes doled out based on whether or not a candidate has ever suffered discrimination. There is a very disproportionally large number of black female 1SGs and SGMs, kind of a running joke. Female minorities are also referred to as the "double threat" in EO terms, which means now we may very well get the "triple threat."

Calling something "gay" or "faggot" has the potential to blow up in ones face...

Regardless, we lead the way in technology and social experiments. Our latest are recycling and solar power, just chock this one up with desegregation and the internet tubes.

Also, lesbians are hawt

[Louis VI the Fat]

Great day. The army should be too busy too discriminate.


Also, considering US troops for the foreseeable future have pretty high odds to be deployed against enemies who flog then stone gays, setting the right example helps in the task of furthering human rights.
How do you tell a man with a stone in his hands not to kill the village homosexual when you yourself refuse them in your ranks?

[Lemur]

Watch this and try not to cry around the 3:30 mark.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVAgz6iyK6A

[Papewaio]

About time. I live in Sydney and work in contact centers... So a very mixed environment. I've never seen someone not being able to perform their duties because of sexuality.

Denying someone the right to defend their country is denying them the right to self defense.

Historically some of the most fearsome warriors, units and armies have had gay members... Then add in navies well we managed to maintain discipline back then.

Biologically it is logical. One normally doesn't cull the breeding pair on a farm...

[Ronin]

Also, lesbians are hawt

Alas, porn is not real life my friend.

[The Celtic Viking]

Alas, porn is not real life my friend.

Surprisingly, that doesn't affect its hawtiness.

[classical_hero]

So soon the enemy will have to worry about their back flank also.

I just could not resist.

[Fragony]

'MAN THE HOLES!!!' will never the same. It would be nice if these 14.000 people who lost their job get it back. If you think a gay person is instantly arroused when among the same sex you are an idiot, no need to be uncomfortable.

[Lemur]

It would be nice if these 14.000 people who lost their job get it back.
That's one of the best aspects of this policy — any military personnel who were dismissed for being fabulous can petition for reinstatement, so long as they can pass the usual requirements for admission. Also, anyone who received a less-than-honorable discharge can petition to have it upgraded. No time limit. In other words, a WWII grunt who got kicked out for being a little too fancy can get his discharge upgraded to honorable. This is great stuff.

[Centurion1]

'MAN THE HOLES!!!' will never the same. It would be nice if these 14.000 people who lost their job get it back. If you think a gay person is instantly arroused when among the same sex you are an idiot, no need to be uncomfortable.

i take it off my personal self. i certainly am aroused when surrounded by anyone of a different sex. :clown:

[Hax]

That would tell us more about your age than about the male sex in general.

[Papewaio]

i take it off my personal self. i certainly am aroused when surrounded by anyone of a different sex. :clown:

Tasmaninan?

[Louis VI the Fat]

i certainly am aroused when surrounded by anyone of a different sex. :clown:


https://img833.imageshack.us/img833/6915/80921310.jpg


https://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6527/23victorialgl.jpg


https://img716.imageshack.us/img716/4160/fatgirls.jpg

[Centurion1]

yes, yes, 4 times yes.

:tongue:

[Samurai Waki]

I think someone broke the babe thread rule. :wacko:

[Fragony]

That's one of the best aspects of this policy ? any military personnel who were dismissed for being fabulous can petition for reinstatement, so long as they can pass the usual requirements for admission. Also, anyone who received a less-than-honorable discharge can petition to have it upgraded. No time limit. In other words, a WWII grunt who got kicked out for being a little too fancy can get his discharge upgraded to honorable. This is great stuff.

Awesome, that is how you do a proper mea culpa. Hats off to USA and it's willingness to correct what's wrong.

[Beskar]

Awesome, that is how you do a proper mea culpa. Hats off to USA and it's willingness to correct what's wrong.

Indeed, it is nice to see the USA doing good.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's one of the best aspects of this policy — any military personnel who were dismissed for being fabulous can petition for reinstatement, so long as they can pass the usual requirements for admission. Also, anyone who received a less-than-honorable discharge can petition to have it upgraded. No time limit. In other words, a WWII grunt who got kicked out for being a little too fancy can get his discharge upgraded to honorable. This is great stuff.

Really? Wow, in the UK we do this thing where we pardon people shot for "cowardice" now, but unlike that policy this is a retroactive change I agree with. Although, I hope this isn't a blanket change, someone caught fraternising innapropriately should be discharged, regardless of sex or gender.

[Centurion1]

Really? Wow, in the UK we do this thing where we pardon people shot for "cowardice" now, but unlike that policy this is a retroactive change I agree with. Although, I hope this isn't a blanket change, someone caught fraternising innapropriately should be discharged, regardless of sex or gender.

you are fraternization policy remains the same.

[PanzerJaeger]

Don't really feel like starting another thread, and there's not really anything more to be said, but I hope - in some small way - ending DADT will stop things like this from happening in the future. Another week, another gay kid kills himself. :shame:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQwdeJuvcPs

[Strike For The South]

People are broken on the inside

Absolutely sickening

[Fragony]

Don't really feel like starting another thread, and there's not really anything more to be said, but I hope - in some small way - ending DADT will stop things like this from happening in the future. Another week, another gay kid kills himself. :shame:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQwdeJuvcPs

Don't giving it too much media attention would be lovely. Kids commit suicide everywhere about anything. Just making it worse this way as more will seek that attention, journalists are scum

[Strike For The South]

http://blog.chron.com/rickperry/2011/09/biggest-boos-in-gop-debate-reserved-for-gay-soldier-in-iraq/


During the Fox News debate, a gay Army soldier asked by video if the candidates would reverse the Obama administration’s recent overturning of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.
A few voices in the crowd booed loudly, and Rick Santorum went along with the opposition in his answer, which began “I would say any type of sexual activity has no place in the military.”

[Fragony]

And nobody pointed out that 'preference' and 'activity' are something completely different? What an easy kill

[Lemur]

It gets worse. It is customary, when addressing a serving soldier, to thank him for his service. Even National Review noted the omission (http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/278157/no-thanking-gay-soldier-iraq-his-service#):

I am struck that Rick Santorum did not thank Stephen Hill, a gay soldier in the U.S. Army currently in Iraq, for his service. Nor did anyone else on that stage.

Whatever you think of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” or homosexuality, Hill is risking his life on behalf of his country. It is troubling, and revealing, that Santorum’s answer entirely defined Hill as a gay man first and as a soldier second, if at all.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Don't giving it too much media attention would be lovely. Kids commit suicide everywhere about anything. Just making it worse this way as more will seek that attention, journalists are scum

Gay students have a much higher rate of suicide than the overall rate for that age bracket. This is a systematic problem that needs to be exposed in order for society to change. Sweeping it under the rug like that is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. It's like telling the children not to give the bully the satisfaction of telling on him after he beat the **** out of you.

[Fragony]

Gay students have a much higher rate of suicide than the overall rate for that age bracket. This is a systematic problem that needs to be exposed in order for society to change. Sweeping it under the rug like that is the exact opposite of what we should be doing. It's like telling the children not to give the bully the satisfaction of telling on him after he beat the **** out of you.

I don't like the loud reporting, journalists should know when to show some restraint. I respectfully disagree but understand what you are saying

[Adrian II]

Don't giving it too much media attention would be lovely. Kids commit suicide everywhere about anything. Just making it worse this way as more will seek that attention, journalists are scum

Agreed. :bow:

[Fragony]

Agreed. :bow:

Ok some are

[Lemur]

This one's for you, PJ: A major asks: Now that we have gay soldiers, what about the guys who said this move would destroy the military? (http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/10/13/a_major_asks_now_that_we_have_openly_gay_soldiers_what_about_those_guys_who_said_th)

At what point in time should journalists, bloggers, etc ... hold those who made wildly inaccurate predications on the lifting of the ban accountable? All the retired generals and officers (LTG Mixon, Merrill A. McPeak and Col. Dave Bedey for example) who predicted that soldiers would leave the military by the thousands, or John McCain and other politicians describing how it would affect us as a fighting force? At some point I feel that the public should be reminded of their predictions so the next time they make predictions that are way off the mark, fewer people will give them credence.

[Vladimir]

That's a good question to ask.

I suppose it would have been more true in the 90's. The wars and the decade between when it was first proposed and now likely had an effect.

"Don't ask" was a bad policy but it did provide some adjustment time.

[PanzerJaeger]

This one's for you, PJ: A major asks: Now that we have gay soldiers, what about the guys who said this move would destroy the military? (http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/10/13/a_major_asks_now_that_we_have_openly_gay_soldiers_what_about_those_guys_who_said_th)

At what point in time should journalists, bloggers, etc ... hold those who made wildly inaccurate predications on the lifting of the ban accountable? All the retired generals and officers (LTG Mixon, Merrill A. McPeak and Col. Dave Bedey for example) who predicted that soldiers would leave the military by the thousands, or John McCain and other politicians describing how it would affect us as a fighting force? At some point I feel that the public should be reminded of their predictions so the next time they make predictions that are way off the mark, fewer people will give them credence.

IIRC, most of the critics of integration went on to have successful careers in the military or politics. So, probably never. :blank2:

[Major Robert Dump]

The biggest problem we are seeing now is getting the gay young'ens to realize this is not a green light to GAY IY UP.

We are getting females doing it in open bays with other females, and when we discipline them, they bring up the DADT repeal. All of this is covered in General Order 1.

Furthermore, it angers the straight females because, as one of my E-7s told me, "I want some ****, too"

Another issue that has arisen are the "Gay and Proud" kids, who are doing stuff like hanging pictures of greased men wearing ball gags and G-strings on their desks. Or talking boasterously amongst their peers about their sexual exploits.

A line has to be drawn. EO in the army is designed that it is subjective to the offended party, so if someone is offended (by ball gags, gay sex talk, women in things) then the offending party has to stop. But this will cause a snowball affect for all talk of that nature, so if a gay guy cant talk about gay exploits then it will be difficult for a striaght guy to talk about straight exploits ithout the policy coming off as hypocritical.

In short, my older soldiers who are gay have been just fine. It's the 19 and 20 year olds that have been putting up the GAY PRIDE banners, and that just ain't gonna wash

[a completely inoffensive name]

Once again, the "in your face, we are here get used to it" kind of attitude starts to backfire.

[Major Robert Dump]

They will learn pretty quickly. It will cost many of them some rank.

I can't come into work Monday morning talking about all the Vag I licked over the weekend, and neither can they.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The biggest problem we are seeing now is getting the gay young'ens to realize this is not a green light to GAY IY UP.

We are getting females doing it in open bays with other females, and when we discipline them, they bring up the DADT repeal. All of this is covered in General Order 1.

Furthermore, it angers the straight females because, as one of my E-7s told me, "I want some ****, too"

Another issue that has arisen are the "Gay and Proud" kids, who are doing stuff like hanging pictures of greased men wearing ball gags and G-strings on their desks. Or talking boasterously amongst their peers about their sexual exploits.

A line has to be drawn. EO in the army is designed that it is subjective to the offended party, so if someone is offended (by ball gags, gay sex talk, women in things) then the offending party has to stop. But this will cause a snowball affect for all talk of that nature, so if a gay guy cant talk about gay exploits then it will be difficult for a striaght guy to talk about straight exploits ithout the policy coming off as hypocritical.

In short, my older soldiers who are gay have been just fine. It's the 19 and 20 year olds that have been putting up the GAY PRIDE banners, and that just ain't gonna wash

Get the older gays to beat them with soap in socks?

[Slyspy]

I can't come into work Monday morning talking about all the Vag I licked over the weekend, and neither can they.

True enough, but maybe not in the way you mean!

[Papewaio]

The young ones will get over it straight or gay.

It could be a very good way to interview a few terror suspects if they have to sit in an office with gay porn everywhere.

"No Amenesty the gagballs are worn by the interviewer not the suspect."

"Yes they talk pretty quick particularly when the fluro silicon batons come out."

=][=

When I first landed in Taiwan I was shocked by all the swatizkas and pink triangles. The first of course is used in temples and vegetarian restaurants the second is emergency exits from buildings.

[Major Robert Dump]

Considering the sexual habits of muslims in this part of the world, that plan would back fire.

[Vladimir]

The biggest problem we are seeing now is getting the gay young'ens to realize this is not a green light to GAY IY UP.

We are getting females doing it in open bays with other females, and when we discipline them, they bring up the DADT repeal. All of this is covered in General Order 1.

Furthermore, it angers the straight females because, as one of my E-7s told me, "I want some ****, too"

What unit is this and do I have to change my MOS to join?

[Major Robert Dump]

If you saw these particular females your mind would change quickly. Think Rosie O'Donnel meets Margeret Cho.

[Fragony]

A pity this is hijacked by professional gays if things are like that, once they insist on being a gay first and soldier second I kinda lose sympathy. The right thing to do is just not making a point out of it, gah to activists who demand too much

[Vladimir]

I suspect that there are few cases of this. Like I said, if the repeal would have happened during the debate in the 90's I suspect people would have been more passionate about it and went even crazier. Now this sounds like normal stupid human tricks.

[Major Robert Dump]

It's only a few people doing this. The vast majority are simply taking it in stride, as concerned with their work colleagues opinions and professionallism as the next guy. The military will need several years, through trial and error, to work out the hypocrisies and inconsistencies that are bound to pop up. Unfortunately some people will probably lose their jobs on both sides of the debate, and what I am most worried about as an officer is that it will become a "protected class" like the females and minorities, which adds an additional layer of ambiguity to EO complaints.

[Kekvit Irae]

Coming from military experience, Clinton's Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy was a very good thing, in context. You have to understand that before then gays were persecuted relentlessly. If there was ever a suspicion that you were gay, you were sent before a tribunal. With the DADT policy, as long as you didn't say or do anything overt, the law would prevent witchhunts. Like I said, in a historical context, DADT was a good thing for gays. The DADT policy can be seen as a major stepping stone to finally excepting LGBTs into the military, with the final step being the repeal.
Sadly, there are some jerks who take the repeal and abuse it for their own liking, as Major Robert Dump noted.

[Centurion1]

i have noticed an increase in eo briefs lately actually. I will say though if they take the homo eroticism out of the Army it will merely be a shell of what it once was.

[Vladimir]

i have noticed an increase in eo briefs lately actually. I will say though if they take the homo eroticism out of the Army it will merely be a shell of what it once was.

I almost thought you typed "homo erection." My bad.

Although I'm a fan of homo erectus myself.

[Kekvit Irae]

Although I'm a fan of homo erectus myself.

Personally, I'm a fan of Homo ergaster, but to each their own. :P

[Fragony]

It's only a few people doing this. The vast majority are simply taking it in stride, as concerned with their work colleagues opinions and professionallism as the next guy. The military will need several years, through trial and error, to work out the hypocrisies and inconsistencies that are bound to pop up. Unfortunately some people will probably lose their jobs on both sides of the debate, and what I am most worried about as an officer is that it will become a "protected class" like the females and minorities, which adds an additional layer of ambiguity to EO complaints.

Maybe DADT was fair enough, even if it feels wrong to me. If some are so agressively faboulous a line should indeed be drawn. I like mutual respect, quid pro quo

[Greyblades]

Personally, I'm a fan of Homo ergaster, but to each their own. :PHomo rudolfensis has its moments.