View Full Version : Crusade Pathfinding
Cyprian2
09-21-2011, 14:29
Well, I'm sure this is covered somewhere, but I haven't had a chance to wade through all the archives to find it. Why is crusade pathfinding so screwy for the player? That is, you're forced to follow a predetermined path (often not the one you would have chosen), while the AI seems able to go wherever it wants, often moving up and down the stratmap with no apparent logic. So, is it possible to self-determine the path my crusades will follow, or must I always be forced to follow the whims of the engine?
I've been curious about this as well. AI crusades tend to take the scenic route, usually through your lands, on their way to the Levant. It's really noticeable when you play the Danes, the French and English crusades veer pretty far north for an army that should be acclimatizing itself for hot, dry weather. I've always assumed it was just part of the game to annoy the human player.
white lancer
09-21-2011, 20:42
I recently launched two Crusades in my English campaign (one to Egypt, one to Sinai). I have ships in every sea zone while the Egyptians have no ships at all, and I was allied with everyone else, so I took the first one straight to Egypt. I was able to take the second one on a detour through Spain despite the fact that I could have easily gone straight to Sinai; I went to Valencia, Cordoba, and then back to Castile so I could use my own ships without passing through Almohad North Africa. Seems like a pretty odd journey, but I don't believe it would have allowed me to go to Portugal or Leon from Cordoba--I guess they wouldn't have helped me to get any closer? I haven't really observed any AI crusades doing anything weirder than that one, though. Maybe I just haven't played enough.
Trapped in Samsara
09-22-2011, 10:09
Hi
Also, AI crusades, I have found to my cost, are able to teleport across sea zones - not the type traversed by a 'landbridge'. (So maybe that should be 'walk on water'.)
Very annoying when you have ships in the sea zones in question, are already at war with the crusade's sponsor who does not have any fleets, and have been excommed for having denied passage through one of your provinces elsewhere on the coast.
Best regards
Victor
Sapere aude
Horace
Gilrandir
09-22-2011, 13:34
Hi
Also, AI crusades, I have found to my cost, are able to teleport across sea zones - not the type traversed by a 'landbridge'. (So maybe that should be 'walk on water'.)
Very annoying when you have ships in the sea zones in question, are already at war with the crusade's sponsor who does not have any fleets, and have been excommed for having denied passage through one of your provinces elsewhere on the coast.
Best regards
Victor
Sapere aude
Horace
It is still more annoying when you let it through and the crusade sucks in the best of your troops, uses your fleet chain to get to the destination and is proud to announce urbi et orbi that it was the protector of Christian faith and promoter of it to the lands of infidels (and gets influence, piety and what not, very probably).
It is still more annoying when you let it through and the crusade sucks in the best of your troops, uses your fleet chain to get to the destination and is proud to announce urbi at orbi that it was the protector of Christian faith and promoter of it to the lands of infidels (and gets influence, piety and what not, very probably).
Great risk, great reward. :yes:
Again, when playing as the Danes, I usually reject crusades through my lands. I can usually fight them off, and being excommed tends to be the natural state in most of my games anyway. The best part is when you beat back the crusade, then use your superior navy to invade the province with the Chapterhouse, burn it to the ground, and sit back to watch the resulting civil war with glee.
Come to think of it, I wonder if it's my superior navy that attracts the crusades in the first place. The Baltic Sea->Lithuania->Kiev->Black Sea/Khazar. :inquisitive: I'll have to pop up the map and count the steps...
white lancer
09-23-2011, 07:35
Can Crusades use other factions' ships to get to its destination? The Spanish didn't have a fleet when I waltzed through their territories, but even though I did I wasn't able to use my own fleet to get to my destination (and yes, the Spanish did have ports).
Gilrandir
09-23-2011, 16:46
Can Crusades use other factions' ships to get to its destination? The Spanish didn't have a fleet when I waltzed through their territories, but even though I did I wasn't able to use my own fleet to get to my destination (and yes, the Spanish did have ports).
The same question was in my mind too, white lancer!!
I remember a crusade which I let through my territory. After zigzagging a bit across my lands it reached a coastal province of mine and got transported to the destination. But I don't recall whether I had a chain of ships to Outremer or there were other factions' fleets on the way there.
The historic logics (mixed with my beliefs about medieval crusades) tells me that any fellow catholics are to be relied upon in assistance in that matter, i.e. they would allow you to use their fleets.
But logics of the game tells me that in letting the crusade through your lands it got your acquiescence to use only YOUR lands, ports and ships at their discretion.
Which logics is at work here? Drone, help us!
You are asking the wrong person here. I rarely crusade, most of my experience with crusades is with thwarting them. My best guess is that they can use your ports/ships once you have given permission, but I cannot verify that.
Haccapelite
10-03-2011, 20:40
Ahoy guys, long time no post!
This conversation caught my eye, since one of the last games of MTW I played before taking a break (damn Civ IV, so addictive) was with the French in XL, and I specifically decided to try to complete the crusade-related GA's (krak des chevaliers etc, I can't remember them all from the top of my head) and did actually manage to launch some succesful crusades. Before that I wasn't too well informed about the aspects of crusading but I learned something from that game plus the related topics on the .org at that time.
The first thing to remember is that the game treats human player and computer crusades differently: Human controlled crusades must always use the shortest possible route to the destination province, eg. the route that will take the least amount of turns. On the contrary, computer controlled crusades have the freedom of choosing their own route, which sometimes leads to them taking special interest in your high-garrisoned provinces, sucking up those valuable chivalric foot knights you've been stacking up to swipe the damnable germans off the face of the earth. (no personal experience related...)
As for crusades crossing water regions and using other factions' ships, the observations made here are correct. Once a crusade is given permission to pass through a players lands, it can use its ports and ships, but it can also use any possible link of ships that can be used to transport the crusade across the sea. If you for example are playing as the Italians, and you allow a German crusade to pass through your lands to Venice, and there is a link of French ships leading straight from Venice to say, Tripoli, the crusade can use those ships as long as it's not in war with the French.
Personally I found amphibiously conducted crusades to be most effective: first I made sure I had a chain of ships from the starting province to the destination, (or as close as I could get) then I simply created the crusade, dropped my pre-arranged crusader army to the crusade and slammed the lot in the middle of the holy land to cause as much turmoil as possible. While not maybe the most sportsmanlike maneuver, it did really save me some grey hair from battling with the limited route options, and i actually got a pretty intact army all the way to the destination. (And once my line of ships was cut off shortly afterwards, my little crusade army really got to see some serious action too...)
PS. Good to be back again, it's nice to see the community still active! I have been playing MTW occasionally lately, had some fun with the Warlords-mod, and also gave a go at Redux (pretty damn great btw, really loved the balance it offers) and I have a rather interesting campaing going as the Picts in Viking Invasion atm.
Gilrandir
10-04-2011, 15:08
On the contrary, computer controlled crusades have the freedom of choosing their own route, which sometimes leads to them taking special interest in your high-garrisoned provinces, sucking up those valuable chivalric foot knights you've been stacking up to swipe the damnable germans off the face of the earth. (no personal experience related...)
Comment 1.
Chivalric foot knights? Hmmm... You mean to say that you have them unhorsed in your army? Or is it the mod that allows you to have footknights and knights as two separate units available in the game?
Comment 2.
Germans? I have no grudge against them. In spite of having the largest territory from the outset it is one of the weakest factions which usually succumbs after a defeat or two and relinquishes provinces one by one without putting up a fight. I'm going to play HRE some day on expert to see if a human player can ignite some fire in the complacent Germans.
Welcome back, Haccapelite. :bow:
Your description of AI crusades pretty much matches with what I have observed. And it would not surprise me at all if the AI crusade pathfinding was hardcoded to traipse through the player's lands on it's way to the target, for added difficulty.
Haccapelite
10-04-2011, 16:56
@Gilrandir: Yeah, IIRC I was playing XL mod at that time, and that mod allows CFK to be trained separately. And as for the Holy Roman Empire, they really do struggle quite a lot in the hands of the AI, mainly thanks to the fact that they have so many neighbor countries that start picking off the bordering provinces because HRE's economy simply can't afford to defend every key province in the early game. I've tried them a couple of times, once in XL and once in Redux, and fared pretty well both times, although the XL-campaing did come to an end when the game had boiled down into a final show-down between me and the hugely bloated Byzantine empire.
A pretty nifty way of dealing with the difficulty of defending all your bordering provinces is to locate provinces that are connected to as many of your bordering provinces as possible (can't drop any names here, sorry, it's been a while since I played the regular campaing) and gather a well-rounded army to that province. This way you can leave the other provinces with small garrisons and simply counter-invade them with your bigger defensive army if/when someone tries to conquer your lands. This ofcourse requires you to build atleast a fort in the less defended provinces to allow your forces to retreat to the castle instead of abandoning the entire province. This saves you time and money, and you can focus on improving your infrastructure before starting to pick your neighbors up one at a time with those nice german special units. (Swabian swordsmen kick arse!) A somewhat cheap trick to boost your economy with Germany is to exploit saxony and its salt resource: Saxony is the only coastal province that has salt as a trade resource (Redux fixes this exploit, IIRC), and with a reasonably sized trade fleet you can make saxony pump some serious cash to your money chest. (I've had somewhere around 3000-4000 income in Saxony in the games where i controlled the province.)
Cheers, drone! Yeah, that would actually make sense I think. That really makes those events that raise the zeal in your lands a nuisance, but ofcourse you can always deny the crusades access to your lands. It also sometimes seems as if the crusade actually aimed straight at your biggest army, eg. when you're planning on invading a neighbor and your troops are ready and BLAM out of nowhere a random crusade appears.. This goes pretty well with the assumption of some hard-coded features with AI crusades.
PS. Goddamnit, all this MTW talk is making me want to crush my enemies and hear the lamentations of their women again, I guess it's bye-bye for any schoolwork for the rest of the evening!
Gilrandir
10-05-2011, 15:38
This saves you time and money, and you can focus on improving your infrastructure before starting to pick your neighbors up one at a time with those nice german special units. (Swabian swordsmen kick arse!)
I played HRE couple of times but at lower than expert difficulties and fared pretty well, but somehow I didn't come by Swabians. In the very first game I simply didn't know that such a unit exists. In the next game I didn't build the corresponding province up to the level allowing the production of them (as you know they are available only in early). So, by now I don't have any experience of using them in battle, but I heard MTW community lamenting their high cost and brief availability which both make them inadequate.
I found it even more irritating when I let the crusade go through my lands as the Byzantines and they pillaged 1500 florins from me twice,as I had earmarked that money for army building when my building's finished,next turn.After that all Crusades are required to battle my armies for admittance,if they survive I might let them through..
Trapped in Samsara
10-06-2011, 13:04
...when I let the crusade go through my lands as the Byzantines and they pillaged 1500 florins from me twice...
Huh?! Don't understand. Are you perhaps talking about MTWII? Admittedly, I very rarely allow crusades through my lands, but it's completely passed me by if crusades can hoover florins as well as troops in MTW.
V
Crusades will not take troops unless the faction is catholic. Instead it will pillage the land and take your bank account.
Trapped in Samsara
10-06-2011, 18:35
Crusades will not take troops unless the faction is catholic. Instead it will pillage the land and take your bank account.
Wow! Nearly a decade of playing this fantastic game and I've never encountered (or at least spotted) this. I'm genuinely looking forward to being 'crusaded through' as a non-Catholic faction just so I can experience this first hand.
What an historically accurate feature, too.
Thanks oz_wwjd and drone for enlightening me.
Best regards
Victor
Sapere aude
Horace
Gilrandir
10-07-2011, 15:32
This story of the treasury burglarized by the vagabond crusade defies common sense. If you let the crusade into your province it is entitled to do whatever it wants with the buildings, people and armies in the PROVINCE. Your treasury does NOT belong to the province, it is the property of the whole faction so the crusade can not get hold of it. Of course, one may suppose that your treasury is kept in this province. Then it is sure to be stored within the principal stronghold of the province. And that is kept intact during the sojourn of the crusade in your province: the crusade is situated "afield" (remember, you have your own flag flying from the topmost tower of the provincial capital).
So I would call it a blunder on the part of the game desiners.
Trapped in Samsara
10-07-2011, 18:55
Hi
It's just a game, Gilandir.
The objective of this particular feature is to make you 'suffer' due to the depredations of an AI crusade marching through your lands, so CA implemented "treasury burglarization". (Good expression, by the way.) It might be a bit 'quick and dirty'. There might be 'better' ways of representing the looting, etc. But provided you take a hit and feel a bit violated it achieves the right outcome, no?
You might find it interesting to read up on the Fourth Crusade, by the way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
Best regards
Victor
Sapere aude
Horace
Gilrandir
10-08-2011, 06:59
Hi Victor!
I realize that it is only a game and the purpose the game creators had in view (suffering penalty for your kindness which amounted to letting a crusade through your lands). But somehow, people at this forum (me included) take it too seriously. (I like the statement which one person - don't remember his name - said about football: Some people say that football is a life-or-death issue. They are wrong, it is much more serious.) People are prone to consider MTW as a replica of what was really going on in Europe at those times. So am I. I have tried to express this attitude in the thread "what's in thy name?" I guess MTW fans will always look for as much historic accuracy and common sense in the game as possible.
As for the link, I thank you. But recently I have acuired a three-volume "History of the Crusades" by Steve Runciman and now I'm waiting for it to be shipped to me. I expect to find their exhausive information on the topic.
P.S. On a second thought, a better way of rendering the tribulations you suffer from a passing crusade might be by confiscating the year's income the province provides or reducing some buildings one level down (or to ashes).
And speaking of them monies, does anyone know who gets the impounded cash? The faction that sent the crusade? If yes, then I may consider sending a couple of crusades on a tour around Europe with gigs at major capitals.
Trapped in Samsara
10-10-2011, 09:45
I like the statement which one person - don't remember his name - said about football: Some people say that football is a life-or-death issue. They are wrong, it is much more serious.
Hi Gilandir
“They say Football's a matter of life and death - but it's more important than that”
Bill Shankly, Liverpool FC manager, 1959 to 1974.
You'll never walk alone.
Best regards
Victor
Sapere aude
Horace
Still I'd to see one of these Crusages attempting to lay siege to my fully-upgraded fortress in Constaninople. The resulting fight would be truly epic but destructive to their army.
Trapped in Samsara
10-10-2011, 12:25
Still I'd to see one of these Crusages attempting to lay siege to my fully-upgraded fortress in Constaninople. The resulting fight would be truly epic but destructive to their army.
Actually, I've seen very few siege assaults repelled. I can only recall achieving this as the defender a handful of times, myself.
I normally starve fortifications into submission. But even a level five (fortress?) fortification's walls are easily cracked by, say, a four-gun BFG culverin battery. The question then becomes: how quickly will the defenders become exhausted as they defend the breaches.
V
Gilrandir
10-10-2011, 12:55
Still I'd to see one of these Crusages attempting to lay siege to my fully-upgraded fortress in Constaninople. The resulting fight would be truly epic but destructive to their army.
This post provoked a question:
If you deny a crusade's passage, then are offered a battle, and choose to retreat into your fortress. Will the crusaders storm it or try to starve it out or simply move on to their destination? Did any one have such an experience?
Trapped in Samsara
10-10-2011, 13:27
Will the crusaders storm it or try to starve it out or simply move on to their destination? Did any one have such an experience?
I think the crusade will move into the province (obviously) and then depart the following year towards the destination province. In other words, I understand a crusade will fight to enter a province, but will only seek to conquer its target.
By the way Gilandir, I had another 'favourable' loyalist revolt occurance this weekend. Me Almos, getting complacent. The Turks have a substantial empire, but are facing many threats on many fronts. My ruler dies, next turn I decide to do some title swapping. Result: I only have a one-star general in Sinai when the Turks invade. Three 3k battles so far. Good fights all of them. But the Turks also destroy my fleet in the Cyprus sea zone and invade next turn. I give battle to slim down my garrison and then withdraw to the castle. The Turks siege but don't assault. Next turn a loyalist revolts presents me with 200 good quality troops. My garrison sallies, links up with the loyalist rebels and the Turks are toast.
I love this game.
V
Gilrandir
10-10-2011, 14:11
Perhaps, you are just lucky to have loyalist revolt in your favor. Or it is the difficulty that allowed it (you play on hard, right?) On expert I never had it the way you do.
Trapped in Samsara
10-10-2011, 15:02
Perhaps, you are just lucky to have loyalist revolt in your favor. Or it is the difficulty that allowed it (you play on hard, right?) On expert I never had it the way you do.
Perhaps it's because my subjects love me?
V
Gilrandir
10-10-2011, 15:29
Don't let this thought carry you away. If you do you may become too mellow and relaxed. Then one day you will find yourself in a whirlwind of rebellions. You must keep an eye on 'em anyway otherwise you'll be in for all kinds of trouble, oh truly magnificent one.
P.S. One of the ways to stay alert is to pay close attention to the spelling of my "name" - it is GilRandir. It's Elvish: "gil" means "star", "randir" means "wanderer, pilgrim".
Trapped in Samsara
10-10-2011, 16:18
P.S. One of the ways to stay alert is to pay close attention to the spelling of my "name" - it is GilRandir. It's Elvish: "gil" means "star", "randir" means "wanderer, pilgrim".
You have elves in the Ukraine?
V
Gilrandir
10-10-2011, 16:26
As much as elsewhere. But you don't have to be an Elf to bear an Elvish name. Such as Victor is a Latin name, but I don't suppose you number Julius Ceasar among your ancestors. Yet, I may be wrong.
Trapped in Samsara
10-10-2011, 17:28
I don't suppose you number Julius Ceasar among your ancestors.
I think you mean Julius Caesar. Et tu, GilRandir?
Well he was an insatiably randy old goat, by many accounts, so who's to say I (and many hundreds of thousands of others) don't have some of his DNA.
Genghis Khan is estimated to have 16 million living descendants.
V
Gilrandir
10-11-2011, 13:56
I think you mean Julius Caesar. Et tu, GilRandir?
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
Gilrandir
11-20-2011, 10:00
One more thing with crusades I wonder about. Generally, you have to pay the Pope for the crusade (usually about 1000 florins). But sometimes you get a message that the Pope calls you (and the catholic world) to start a crusade against someone. Do you have to pay for it as well? I mean it was the Pope who wanted it, why should I pay. I never had a chance to check this logics as this message comes either when I'm indisposed (read unprepared and broke) to start a crusade or when it is me that the crusade is supposed to aim.
I of the Storm
11-21-2011, 14:01
I think this crusade is free then. But I don't know for how long this papal invitation is open.
Gilrandir
01-08-2012, 11:36
What a thought-provoking campaign this Byzhighexpert of RRMike's is!! This crusade in Bulgaria started me into a train of thought.
Imagine that this Sicilian crusade is firmly rooted there and the province suddenly becomes rebel. What then? I see three possible developments:
1. The province goes over to the Sicilians (as there is their crusade in it) and the rebels are sucked into the crusading army or change their allegiance and become Sicilians.
2. The province goes over to the Sicilians (as there is their crusade in it) and the crusade has to fight the rebels as now they are rebels not against the Huns but against the Sicilians.
3. The province stays rebel and tolerates the crusade within its boundaries much as the Huns did.
Does anyone have any clue which way the situations may develop?
What a thought-provoking campaign this Byzhighexpert of RRMike's is!! This crusade in Bulgaria started me into a train of thought.
Imagine that this Sicilian crusade is firmly rooted there and the province suddenly becomes rebel. What then? I see three possible developments:
1. The province goes over to the Sicilians (as there is their crusade in it) and the rebels are sucked into the crusading army or change their allegiance and become Sicilians.
2. The province goes over to the Sicilians (as there is their crusade in it) and the crusade has to fight the rebels as now they are rebels not against the Huns but against the Sicilians.
3. The province stays rebel and tolerates the crusade within its boundaries much as the Huns did.
Does anyone have any clue which way the situations may develop?
Interesting question. I'm assuming it would act like rebel muslim provinces do if the zeal was high but if not I wonder if the rebels will simply let crusades pass? The situation I was describing actually ended with the Sicilian crusade disappearing and them excommunicated (and in civil war), rather than the Hungarians. Which begs the question: Did the excommunication result in a failed crusade, and the resulting loss of influence? Talk about a double whammy for your loyalty.
Gilrandir
01-09-2012, 13:03
So a new question arises: do rebels usually let crusades through?
Cyprian2
01-29-2012, 07:02
So a new question arises: do rebels usually let crusades through?
While not having any hard evidence to offer in this matter, I can only surmise that it depends on the crusading faction's relationship with the rebels. If at war, then the rebels with either attack the crusade or retreat to their castle, which would then be held against the crusaders.
So a new question arises: do rebels usually let crusades through?
Yes, they do.
Referring back to the original question, here's an example of historical crusade pathfinding: Emicho (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/cbbc/episode/b01g9d4t/Horrible_Histories_Series_4_Episode_3/). (It's the first story in that episode of the 'childrens' BBC series "Horrible Histories"; apologies if it doesn't play in your jurisdiction).
edyzmedieval
04-26-2012, 21:13
I love it how we discover new facets of the game every year. Truly an amazing game overall.
Gilrandir
01-25-2013, 14:16
Well, I'm through with my French high expert campaign and have some observations to share and questions to offer.
1. I built a crusade in Wessex to go for Morocco but for some reason (which I don't remember now) I didn't transport it directly to its destination but had to move it to Normandy first. My troops in Normandy comprised two incomplete units - one of spearmen and the other of urban militia performing exclusively garrisoning duties. Next year when I could get the crusade where it belonged I checked its composition and learnt with surprise that it had some units (I can recall only pikemen which I never produced nor hired through having access to SAP) which hadn't been there nor could they be sucked into the crusade in Normandy (its garrison wasn't really affected by the religious zest). So, is it possible for a crusade to replenish its numbers from unknown sources if it passes through a province with no such units available?
2. We all know that a crusade may dissolve if the chapter house that bred it is destroyed. But what if not the source but the target of the crusade disappears? It may happen in two ways:
a) the target infidel province is captured by another catholic faction;
b) the target province belonged to an excommed catholic faction which, while the crusade was on its way, got recommunicated (through the death either of the Pope or of the faction's king).
In both cases the target stops being a legitimate target for a crusade. Perhaps, someone had an experience of seeing what could happen to a crusade then.
Cyprian2
08-04-2013, 17:58
I'm reviving this thread because, well, I started it, and because you raised some interesting questions, Gilrandir. I believe that the re-communication of the Catholic faction would defacto result in the crusade's failure, but I've never had this happen. Anyone else? Unlike M2TW, factions do not crusade en masse when called by the pope, so the likelihood of another faction getting the target first is fairly slim. One thing I've always hated is that one can't simply dissolve a crusade when it is no longer viable. Having my hapless, decimated crusaders holed up in a friendly province is utterly humiliating, and it's the one time I allow myself to auto-resolve numerous attacks -- just to get things over with.
On another note, with regard to the infuriating pathfinding, it's important that you are not at war with any of the Catholic factions whose territory you wish to cross. You will not even be given the option to enter that territory, which may result in your crusade being blocked before it can even begin to travel to its destination!
Gilrandir
08-05-2013, 15:30
One thing I've always hated is that one can't simply dissolve a crusade when it is no longer viable. Having my hapless, decimated crusaders holed up in a friendly province is utterly humiliating, and it's the one time I allow myself to auto-resolve numerous attacks -- just to get things over with.
You can always destroy your own chapter house and the crusade will disappear (perhaps even without any influence loss of your king which happens when the crusade can't reach its aim).
You can always destroy your own chapter house and the crusade will disappear (perhaps even without any influence loss of your king which happens when the crusade can't reach its aim).
I'm pretty sure you take a influence hit from this. Never lost a crusade this way myself, but I did cause the French the rebel when I backdoored the Chapterhouse of a crusade coming my way. Not my fault he left the province lightly defended...
I've had crusades dissolve when another Catholic faction takes the target province before mine gets there.
Couldn't play that episode thing but here are a few maps:
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AsWPKid9mkGcvEmRDKmcUeGbvZx4?fr=yfp-t-900-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=crusades%20map
Gilrandir
08-06-2013, 11:40
I'm pretty sure you take a influence hit from this. Never lost a crusade this way myself, but I did cause the French the rebel when I backdoored the Chapterhouse of a crusade coming my way. Not my fault he left the province lightly defended...
Probabaly there is a difference in the influence loss in case someome else destroys your chapterhouse and in case you do it yourself.
I'm pretty sure you take a influence hit from this. Never lost a crusade this way myself, but I did cause the French the rebel when I backdoored the Chapterhouse of a crusade coming my way. Not my fault he left the province lightly defended...
Destroying your own chapter house while a crusade was active was an old "cheat" for triggering a civil war. Destroying it yourself has exactly the same effect as it being destroyed by an enemy incursion (actually losing the province/battle is also a factor in loss of influence however).
Cyprian2
08-07-2013, 22:17
Destroying your own chapter house while a crusade was active was an old "cheat" for triggering a civil war. Destroying it yourself has exactly the same effect as it being destroyed by an enemy incursion (actually losing the province/battle is also a factor in loss of influence however).
Thanks, asai, for highlighting this chea... er... tactic. For some reason, it never occurred to me! And there have actually been times when I've thought: "gee, a civil war would be fun right about now." Seriously.
Gilrandir
08-22-2013, 06:31
I saw a strange behevior of a crusade in my game, so I would like to describe it and perhaps someone could explain it. I am Rus and the Spanish sent a crusade aimed at my Antioch. They chose the African way, went through French-held Northern African provinces and stopped in French-held Cyrenaica. They had rebel Egypt and Egyptian Sinai to cross before they reached my domains of Palestine or Arabia. But they never moved from Cyrenaica! Usually even if a crusade can't pluck up courage to face an enemy the AI moves it into a province, then you get the message that e.g. the Spanish decided to withdraw and next turn the crusade is found in the province it started to move from. But in my case it doesn't even make any attempt to move, it just stands put! I can't imagine what appeal the crusaders found in arid parching Cyrenaica to stop there seemingly for good. Can anyone offer an explanation to all this?
Happens all the time. The AI won't even try to attack unless it believes it has some kind of chance. If I'm the target and they're sitting on my borders, I usually decrease the garrison to tempt them in.
You can sometimes get a crusade that just lingers on for years, with e.g. ten or so units and a handful of men in each one. The annoying thing is that even if you invade, they'll retreat and then they'll be back sitting there next year... One solution is to present them with a target in the form of two or three capable units (cavalry are best) tempt them in to attack then just ride then down until they break and mop up the routers. Horse archers are perfect for this in fact.
Crusades stranded in orthodox territory will lose men rapidly and will usually disappear rather quickly. It's those on the borderlands straddling the "religious divide" or those in the west (against catholic excom factions) which will gain new followers to replace the deserters and thus cause the crusade to hang on for much longer. This may be why the Spanish crusade is lasting so long in French territory.
Brandy Blue
08-24-2013, 05:10
Often I perfer to let a stuck crusade linger. Usually the same nation cannot send another crusade somewhere more damaging while the old one is still there.
Yet another way that the rules are different for the AI :) If I try to form a second crusade, I get a game messaging basically saying no but the AI often has two to three at a time, some moving backwards. Also, beware that if a Catholic power takes your crusade target, that's it; the crusade dissolves. However, if you take the AI target, it arrives anyway with a messanger saying that the crusade is holy ordained (or something like that) and requesting that you give the province to them. I assume if you don't, you are excommunicated.
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