should the iron cross count as a symbol of nazi germany

[Hamata]

this medal was awarded to the German solider who fought bravely and exceeded in all category's of
warfare but how ever it has been used
with Nazi symbolism such as the eagle in place of the swastika it was also in the flag of the German army



http://www.thehistorybunker.co.uk/acatalog/110.ht31.jpg

[Secura]

Moved to the Monastery.

[Hamata]

ok thanks

[Samurai Waki]

The iron cross has been around long before the Nazis came to power-- I don't think the Germans need to suppress every thing about their recent past. There were still plenty of German servicemen who had relatively little or nothing to do with the Nazi party that were awarded Iron Crosses in wars other than WWII.

[Brandy Blue]

I think it should not for the reasons Samurai Waki gave. Its a Prussian/German decoration, not a Nazi decoration as such. True the Nazis issued them with swastitikas on them, but the German government has since authorized replacements with oak leaves on instead.

[Fragony]

Absolutely not, it was a military honour that already existed. Germany should really grow up. More of a backroom topic imho

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Absolutely not, it was a military honour that already existed. Germany should really grow up. More of a backroom topic imho

Same. :daisy: what the world thinks. It's time to move on.

[Hamata]

lol

[PanzerJaeger]

Germany should really grow up.

The Iron Cross is the official symbol of the Bundeswehr and the new Honor Cross is a version of one. As was mentioned, in '57 the German government went to the trouble to re-issue Iron Crosses without swastikas so that they could be worn by their recipients. Germany doesn't have a problem with the Iron Cross, it transcends political circumstances - so I'm not really sure who or what the OP is referencing, unless he is making a suggestion.

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~steven/images/leopard2tank-14.jpg

[Husar]

Err, this cross, maybe not an iron one, but the symbol, is still used by the german army.

It's their logo as can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross

If you forbid everything the Nazis used as Nazi-tainted then all Germans will have to move to France as this land was used by the Nazis and we'll have to speak dutch as the language we speak now was used by the Nazis. :dizzy2:

[Hamata]

oh i dont mean i am anti german sorry if you thought it that way

[Brandy Blue]

so I'm not really sure who or what the OP is referencing, unless he is making a suggestion.



Well, I think that the Iron Cross has been used as a symbol by neo-Nazis who are either ignorant of its real significance or try to co-opt it. I suppose that could cause some confusion.

[Sarmatian]

Err, this cross, maybe not an iron one, but the symbol, is still used by the german army.

It's their logo as can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross

If you forbid everything the Nazis used as Nazi-tainted then all Germans will have to move to France as this land was used by the Nazis and we'll have to speak dutch as the language we speak now was used by the Nazis. :dizzy2:

No, because French land was also used by the nazis. You'll have to move to Antartica to be sure.

[Strike For The South]

Well, I think that the Iron Cross has been used as a symbol by neo-Nazis who are either ignorant of its real significance or try to co-opt it. I suppose that could cause some confusion.

This, the cross and 88 are more common the swatstikas

However I always enjoy NAZI monastery topics, always a bit of fun to have a run at the Jerrys

[Fragony]

Well, I think that the Iron Cross has been used as a symbol by neo-Nazis who are either ignorant of its real significance or try to co-opt it. I suppose that could cause some confusion.

So what if they do, they are also scum if they hold a My Little Pony. Why give a *anagram of carp*.

[KrooK]

Iron Cross should not be connected with nazism. It was just a German medal for bravery.
Banning this is just ridiculus. For example many tombs of German soldier in Poland has Iron Cross.
Its not a sign of regime but sign of bravery and respect for soldiers.

[Kralizec]

Gah, I voted "yes" by accident!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Gah, I voted "yes" by accident!No you didn't. You saw we all disagreed with you then you caved in to peer pressure. :stare:

[Brandy Blue]

So what if they do, they are also scum if they hold a My Little Pony. Why give a *anagram of carp*.

Very true. The point I was trying to make is that some people might indeed ask if the Cross of Iron is a Nazi symbol (due to the confusion caused by neo-Nazis) without, as Panzerjager put it, "making a suggestion."I think that the answer to Pharoah's question is "no." However, that does not mean (as Panzer seems to imply) that Pharoah is anti-German simply for asking the question.

[Fragony]

Very true. The point I was trying to make is that some people might indeed ask if the Cross of Iron is a Nazi symbol (due to the confusion caused by neo-Nazis) without, as Panzerjager put it, "making a suggestion."I think that the answer to Pharoah's question is "no." However, that does not mean (as Panzer seems to imply) that Pharoah is anti-German simply for asking the question.

Panzer doesn't imply anything as far as I can see. So what if it confuses some people, confusement is often a concious choice of the confused. Post-war resistance thingie (not directed at you and Pharaoh)

'Gah, I voted "yes" by accident!'

Wrong after the war ~;)

[Hamata]

And i only wanted to here your guys opinion on this ;D as it had been on my mined for ahwhile

[Kralizec]

No you didn't. You saw we all disagreed with you then you caved in to peer pressure. :stare:

You are not my peers :snobby:

[Brandy Blue]

Panzer doesn't imply anything as far as I can see.

If you are right about that then my point was irrelevant anyway.

[Franconicus]

Just a side note to the iron cross. I am currently reading a book about Hitler's regiment during WW1 (Hitlers erster Krieg).
There it is stated that the iron cross was mainly given to soldiers in the staff instead to those in the first trenches. Even the official chronical states that of course the se soldiers were the most brave ones, but there were far too many to give each a cross. There was always one oficer in the staff, who could suggest whom o give the cross and he usually does this with the soldiers he likes and knows. So most of the receivers were officers and soldiers from the staff.

[Papewaio]

Look at who got medals with the British (Commonwealth inclusive) and you'd come to a similar conclusion that it was a mate's club all too often.

No where as near as bad as Douglas MacArthur getting a Medal of Honor for leaving a country... or an Air Medal for being in a plane where 1 engine failed (out of 4)... etc.

[I of the Storm]

Subject is pretty old but just to make the origins of the Iron Cross clear: As a symbol connected to military forces of german tongue it dates back to the beginning of the 13th century when the Teutonic Order was firmly established and got papal approbation. The habit defined back then included a black cross on white coat similar in form to the red cross of the Templars. It became their symbol and the symbol of the baltic State of the Teutonic Order which in turn became the nucleus of early modern Prussia and ... there you are. The Nazis just happened to (ab)use a symbol centuries old, as they did with runes, swastikas, ... you name it.

[CountArach]

Without reading the other posts...

All symbols are contextually dependent and rely on the shared discourse of those who display and those who are displayed to for the dcreation meaning. With the shift in public discourse in modern Germany, symbols such as the Iron Cross can take on a new meaning because those on both sides of the discourse understand the meaning of the symbol as not being related to Nazism in any way.

[GenosseGeneral]

I would say that for us Germans the Iron Cross (in its traditional form) is not a symbol for the nazi regime/its military like the Sig-Rune (of the SS) or the Swastika. However, it is seen as a symbol for the Prussian militarism and the imperialistic policy associated with it. This imperialism led to aggressive nationalism from which evolved, mixed with social Darwinistic ideas, nazism. This leaves Iron Cross as a suspicious symbol.
Another aspect is the glorifying of military heroism associated with that medal. Glorifying of the military was an important part of the Nazi propaganda, while after the war the slogan of German society and policy is "Nie wieder Krieg!" (War never again!) which puts the Iron Cross, like any militarism (or suspected militarism, such as reenactors (not only of nazi troops), militaria collectors or even soldiers) in proximity to Nazism itself.
So as you can see, the Iron Cross might not be considered a Nazi symbol and is not banned as one, but it has a certain touch of nazism and imperialistic past.


Edit: Sorry for necroing, but i wanted to point out that Iron Cross is not considered just a medal for bravery. In fact, I would claim that the interpretations stated in my post are the predominant ones.

[Brandy Blue]

Interesting GenosseGeneral. I thought that the Cross of Iron is in use to this day as a symbol of the German army. That looks like a sort of rehabilitation to me. However, you obviously would know more about German society than I do. I have not even met many Germans and certainly never had the nerve to talk in their hearing about Nazis, World War II etc.

Edit: I forgot that Panzerjager already raised this point. "official symbol of the Bundeswehr and the new Honor Cross is a version of one." Still, I would be interested if you can throw any further light on it, GenosseGeneral.

[GenosseGeneral]

There has recently quite some argument about this. Due to the mission in Afghanistan, which is in fact the first prolonged war German troops are involved in since 1945, there have been attempts to reintroduce the Iron Cross, since there had been no medal for valor in combat before since 1945. This caused a debate: The opponents like in this article (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,539612,00.html) reminded of what it is still associated with: "[... a new medal] in form of the Iron Cross which was already in WWI and WWII a reward for heroes and is identified by many victims of the war with the horros of the Hitler dictorship." and it is called "[...] too contaminated after WWII and the Hitler dictatorship." On the other hand, people have been aruing, that the Iron Cross has been in use since the war against Napoleon in 1813 and also that it is the Bundeswehr's symbol and thus has become a symbol for "Help and solidarity" in the humanitarian missions during the last decade, despite its meaning in the past.
When the new medal was finally created in 2008, it was called the "Ehrenkreuz für Tapferkeit" (Honour cross for valor), not Iron Cross, although it looks somewhat similar (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrenkreuz_der_Bundeswehr_f%C3%BCr_Tapferkeit). So as you can see, in Germany the Iron Cross is still not seen as free from the "historical contamination" of the Nazi era and is not simply a symbol for valour, but has some negative connotation.

[Brandy Blue]

Thank you for the information. I find it strange that the German military should use as its symbol something that many Germans consider contaminated, but perhaps it is no stranger than the fact that our State of Mississippi has the Confederate battle flag as part of its state flag, in spite of the fact that many consider it racist. Hapily Germany seems to have found a compromise in the Ehrenkreuz für Tapferkeit which hopefully will be acceptable to both sides of the debate.