Guns vs Armor test results

[Puzz3D]

I ran a test of musk vs monks, yari sam and naginata as promised. I used 60 man units all H2 on the green map. The musk were 3 men deep, and the targets were 4 men deep. I separated the units so that each musk unit fired at only one enemy unit. The musk were moved to a distance of 45 men from the enemy units. I think that's about 10 men inside their maximum range. I stopped the firing at one minute intervals and recorded the results. Each number is the men remaining after a minute of firing.

Nag....44....34....31....18....11 (ran away at 4:30)
YS.....49....34....25....15....05
WM....48....38....32....25....12

Armor does not appear to help against guns in this test. The few losses the Nag incurred in the 3rd minute of firing is probably due to the random nature of determining a kill. They made up for it in the next minute. I only ran the test once because it takes a while to set it up.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~



[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 07-05-2001).]

[Asakura Lord]

Those are some pretty interesting results. I would have thought that the YS would have done better than the WM. I would like to see a test like that for archers, both SA and CA.

[Puzz3D]

Archers are a different story. It's well know that armor does make a difference against arrows. I'll run the archer test when I have a chance.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takyama ~~~

[Kocmoc]

hmmmm,


the prob with this is that there are much luck.... test it another time u will c it looks other....

btw, u saw the moral of nags are shit....

try it with open formation...hold formation

and after 4 min of shooting close formation and went slow into the guns....

koc

[Khan7]

Grrrrr.. Look, I can tell you from extensive experience that armor helps considerably. The fact that the YS did better than the WM is probably a fluke. If you think about it, there are too many random factors in your experiment.. first of all, I have no idea how you're getting everything to stay the same and go right, and how you're measuring distances.. but most importantly there has to be a large factor of human error, plus there is the fact that there is a great deal of randomness associated with missle barrages.

I think a more productive course of action would be decompiling game files to look directly at the guts, that way there would be no error except in the way you read them.

But I'm not going to be waiting with baited breath for your final results, I already know from experience all I need to.

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Khan7

Yes I thought that nothing could stop the darn bullets.

Of course archers are a different story.

I got a doubt though. Heavy Cavalry. The men are heavily armoured but the cavalry themselves are susceptible to fire.

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[Maltz]

Great work! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Koga No Goshi]

I recreated this same experiment with a clan mate. I have no idea if I was able to reproduce the exact distance, so I don't know if these results can be compared directly to the other guy's, but here they are. (These units were equal distance apart, all H2)

1 min of musket fire
Naginatas: 57 54 54 55
Monks: 51 51 47 44
Yari Sam: 54 50 50 52

2 min of musket fire
Naginatas: 51 51 47 44
Monks: 48 47 44 45
Yari Sam: 47 42 44 42

3 min of musket fire
Naginatas: 48 46 40 37
Monks: 39 43 33 37
Yari Sam: 43 40 43 35

My results *seem* to show greatest losses for monks, fewest for naginata, with yari sam in between. Hold on, lemme do a total losses by unit.

1 min 2 min 3 min
Nag 20 47 69
Monk 47 56 83
Yari 34 65 79

Those are my results.



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Koga no Goshi

"Insolent Horses!!!!"

[Puzz3D]

Khan7,

I measured the distance between musk and target by stretching out a unit between them and counting the men. I might have measured incorrectly, although I tried to be careful. The 3 musk are all selected and start/stop firing at exactly the same time. I agree there is a large random factor. I was looking for a big difference here. I'll repeat this using 4 of each unit the way Koga No Goshi did.


Koga No Goshi,

Your results do show that armor makes a difference. How did you measure distance? You were definitely at a greater distance than I was. I took out 16 nags in the first minute. You didn't take down more than 6 in the first minute in 4 tries. Maybe armor has more of an effect at greater distance. That would make sense. I'll definitely repeat with 4 of each unit at my original distance of 45 men (approx 55 meters if you assume 4' between men).

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[theforce]

Armour can't stop a bullet m8. Armour makes a difference when under archer fire. Then a h2 archer unit can kill a wm uni before you can spit and might kill only 10-15 nag with all their arrows.

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[Puzz3D]

Here is the repeat test on green with 4 of each unit. All units H2, and set up at a distance of 45 men from one another. Musk 3 rows deep, and target units 4 rows deep. Incidentally, the open fire range for musk is a distance of 60 men. And, I got 14 volleys/minute. That's a total of 14x20=280 rounds/minute/unit.

Men still standing:

1 min:
Nag....54....54....50....52 = 210
YS.....47....52....47....54 = 200
WM....49....52....55....48 = 204

2 min:
Nag....45....47....40....39 = 171
YS.....37....39....37....45 = 158
WM....41....45....47....37 = 170

3 min:
Nag....36....45....31....31 = 143
YS.....27....33....33....37 = 130
WM....32....39....36....36 = 133

4 min:
Nag....30....36....24....23 = 113
YS.....21....29....26....27 = 103
WM....26....34....25....20 = 105

6 min:
Nag....13....27....11....11 = 62
YS routed
WM....12....15....11....15 = 53

Well the Nags are doing a little better, but it is not much better than the monks. The YS are not even doing as well as the monks.
These differences could be due entirely to the random nature of the kills.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Shuko]

some interesting results here, what about the N/Y/WM in loose formation ?

[Nelson]

I am impressed with this methodical testing. Very commendable. It would seem that Sengoku era armor generally has little effect vs gunfire just as one would hope. When it was struck that is...

I have always liked the musketry as depicted in Shogun. While I have not fired matchlocks, I have put many rounds through a reproduction 18th century .75 Short Land Pattern flintlock musket ("Brown Bess") at the annual Governor's Firelock Match at Ft. Frederick, Maryland. We fired from close order in 5 man teams at 4 likewise elbow to elbow silhouettes using controlled volley fire with combat loading procedures. Cartridges had to be military style and loaded in the prescribed manner according to one's drill instructions, mine being Von Stueben's. (This was back in my "one meter = one meter" gaming days! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif) Anyway, I digress...

At 80 yards there were quite a few misses. At 50 things were better and at 25 yards you ALMOST couldn't miss. Bear in mind that any touch counted as a hit for smoothbore weapons. And of course, we were very composed seeing as no one was shooting back at us, filling us with terror and punctuating our ranks with screaming men!

My point is that even though the balls had plenty of killing power most of them would go high or strike short beyond 80 yards. Poor accuracy kept casualties low unless the range was very short or the firefight prolonged. Teppo must have had similar experiences.

[shingenmitch2]

Great work Yuuk

Koga--your results, when totalled look like there is a big difference, but the reality of what they show is that the armor effect was pretty insignificant. If I was playing and each of those units was still around, the difference in a unit of 5 or 6 guys is pretty small. A 10-12 man difference is significant.

UR results: 39/48 (significant) but, the other three 43/46 (insignificant), 33/40 (marginal), 37/37 (dead even--insignificant).

Thus 3 out of 4 results were insignificant or marginal between the weak armor and heavy armor--and that is after a full 3 minutes of sustained/unharrassed fire. My guess is that when played out in-game, you'd barely notice the difference in kills on guys with or without armor.

The difference between ur results and Yuuki's seems to show that there is some small benefit for the armor atlonger engagement distances.

-------


Nelson
Great 1st person experience. Unfortunately--it actually shows the flaws of the muskets in STW. (not the least of which is the fire-thru-your-own-men-for-free). The effective ranges of the muskets in STW is simply too great (at least in comparison to the battlefield and unit size/scale relationship). The effective musket range should be significantly shorter than the effective range of archers.

[the benefits of muskets over arrows being--little training required to use (comparative), easier to make, more ammo can be carried, effective punching power at short range.] Equal distance w/arrows was never an attribute of early--even later--muskets. But alas, in STW they are near equal -- and some of the stray bullets seem to go for miles! lol.



[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 07-06-2001).]

[shingenmitch2]

.

[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 07-06-2001).]

[DarthGuru]

Wow great work guys,
This has helped me and I'm sure many others in judging between units a little more and placing them. I also would like to see an arrows vs armor test and see the use of CAs as well http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ... Anyways thanks for the input and help guys, it is always greatly appreciated...

I think that CA kill less per round than SA.

But with CA you can go and kill the monkeys and nods, and thats great. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

But I must see the archer test! Thanks Yuuki.

Tera

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[BanzaiZAP]

An important note here guys: (actually, I just feel like playing Devil's Advocate...)

This is great for looking at the base unit in MP, but this does not take the "armor" bonus from armories into account. In SP the Naginata gets level 1 armor by default (you can't get naginata until you have an armory!). Whether or not this makes a difference to firearms (it probably shouldn't) these tests don't take into account. When the new version hits the stands, we can do realtive armor testing as well. Right now it's just base-unit testing.

-- B)

[qwertyuiop]

Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
I think a more productive course of action would be decompiling game files to look directly at the guts, that way there would be no error except in the way you read them.
But I'm not going to be waiting with baited breath for your final results, I already know from experience all I need to.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Khan less complaining, the test it valid.
Decompilation does not work. Maybe disasembling, then that would be crack headed. If you could understand I wouldn't have to explain.

Good job guys,
-T-

[Koga No Goshi]

Agreed Shingen, my results did not show significant protection from bullets because of armor. I'm glad this thread came up because I had begun experimenting with an army where instead of yari sam behind my muskets, I'd get 2 units of naginata spread out thin with my shock troops behind it until the ranged battle was over. I was hoping the nags would absorb more of the stray fire that got through the musket lines and reduce the horrendous damage stray bullets do to monks and nodachi in the rear ranks during a gun fight, but apparently this is not feasible now that I see the test results.

I don't doubt arrows are a different story, and soon I plan to recreate this test with archers to see how big the difference is. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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Koga no Goshi

"Insolent Horses!!!!"

[CaPeFeAr]

i applaud you for setting up a controled experminent....and i also have a few sugestions and comments

first off...in order to tighten the control i suggest you turn off moral and fatuige..

moral does affect accuracy...(tested it)...this is one of a few little known things that i know is true...but most people will argue its not. i use this knowalage in battle...it gives me a nice edge..

we all know that the longer muskets fire the more tired they get...the more tired they are the less accurate they get..

as far as i know...armor does help against missle units..but the defencive value is not armor....example....both hc and wm have a defensive value of 5...any guesses on wich dies quicker from missles? maby thats not fair..i read somewhere that the size makes them an eaiser target...compare ya and ys instead..

comments:
i understand that most of the members repling to this thread are very acomplished players online. but the awnsers to this equation can be found in the read me files..muskets and archers all have fixed mussel volicities...the game does a little trig to figure out the volicity of the missle at impact..that number is dived by a value detrmined by the units armor ..this sum is whats used in determining the %chance of a kill...(get the battle calculator to learn more ...)chance of a kill is applied to each frame of the game..and if the value is %50 then the blow has a %50 chance of killing the unit each frame...to make the ultimate decision the game uses a random number generator....Therefore...any test will at best have a high %of randomness or as 1 called it "luck"..i am afraid we just have to take the developers word and the experience we all have and belive that armor counts.. the true question is "what is the value of the %chance of kill for missle units"...these numbers have never been released nor have the mussel volicties....sry for the brain cramp...

FEARofNC

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[Kraellin]

excellent info, cape. maybe now i can beat ya.

the only thing i've ever seen about japanese armor is from varous drawings, pictures and so on and i was always struck by the fact that the fellow seemed to be wearing bamboo tied together, at least around the chest. this 'armor' wasnt metal. it wasnt like he was wearing a flak jacket or bullet proof vest. it was wood. now bamboo may be fine for slowing down a dull sword blade, but it's not likely to stop too many high velocity lead balls.

now, i'm sure someone is going to quote several books on me hear and point out that the japanese did have metal armor, but ya know, in EVERY one of those old historical type pictures, i've never seen any metal armor...well, maybe once, and i think that was only some sort of helmet. and, even if they did wear armor, some of them, how prolific was this? metal armor had to be fairly expensive, so, how many would actually have had even one piece?

someone help me out here.

K.

[Puzz3D]

CapeFear,

It would have been better to turn off morale and fatigue, but they were not significant factors in the test. All musk had morale=steady throughout the test, and fatigue didn't go down much either. The musk were resting while I tallied up the kills each minute. On average, each unit looses 8 men/minute. It's quite constant from minute to minute despite the fact that 280 shots are being fired at fewer and fewer men. That seems reasonable because, although there is less chance of hitting a secondary target, each primary target is having more shots directed at it as the number of targets decreases. However, the game mechanics may simply be calculating a constant chance of a kill based on number of shots in the volley, distance to target, target formation, armor, tree cover and musk morale. I think fatigue affects the rate of fire. Could the game actually be doing a ballistics calculation on each round fired without slowing down? In my test all those factors are constant except armor, and I got a constant chance of a kill of 2.8%/round (35 rounds/kill) throughout the test. There is uncertainty in this value introduced with a random number. From looking at the values for each unit type, I would say the standard deviation of those numbers is not more than 20%.

The reason for choosing Nag, YS and WM was to test the effectiveness of armor because these units have different amounts. Nag=5, YS=3 and WM=1. The armor is not having much of an effect at the range I ran my test. The bullet velocity is probably too high. Koga's results show a difference, and from his numbers it looks like he was at a greater range where the velocity would be a little lower. The reason I ran the test was because some people were talking about turning musk into mini-tanks by pumping the armor way up. We'll have to wait and see because the highest armor value I could test was 5.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 07-07-2001).]

[MagyarKhans Cham]

Howl

I can tell you that my Khan is please with these results and is happy that people are researching this.

In his Kenchikuka time he asked for researchers like you amongst the ranks. Although we have some researchers within the Wolves there is always place for some more.

Feel free...

Howldy

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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-mongol/mongol-images/mongolsmiley.gif Quote Although the enemy moves fast, a mongol arrow will kill him at last[/QUOTE]

[shingenmitch2]

Hi Krae -- I don't believe it's bamboo they're wearing http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif, my understanding is that it is laquerd metal -- either in large plates, or as small rectangles woven together. Many suits of armor included arm wraps made of lacquered chain mail. and then reinforced along the fore-arm with metal bars.

[Kraellin]

ah, thanks mitch.

K.

[Shuko]

yes K, the armour plate was often painted and then inscribed with buddist good luck kangi etc. Some units were colour co-ordinated but not the whole army.


Fine quality armour could be "tested" prior to purchase. This armour could withstand a shot from a musket at 30 paces, the matchlock ball dents were usually found on the cuirass and helmet (kabuto). Thus troops fitted with quality armour would be difficult to kill. Guess many of the common naginata were given inferior armour by the Diamyo or lord. The same story with the ashigaru's armour, they were cheap and expendable.

What about the tests on troops in loose formation instead of 3 or 4 deep ranks ? Any results yet or have I missed something.

[Kraellin]

k. those pics i saw of old armor must have been the ashi armor then. looked like bamboo in lengths about 18-24" long, set vertically, tied together and worn across the chest.

i'll see if i can find a pic or two of it.

K.

[Vanya]

Wow! Nice!

Now, can you fellas do the same test on say naginata units with different armor ratings when the expansion comes out? It would be interesting to see the effect of 'legendary armor' vs no armor!

[Koga No Goshi]

For Vanya, the world! MWAHAHAHHAAHAHHA!


Sure Vanya http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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Koga no Goshi

"Insolent Horses!!!!"

[Shuko]

Quote Originally posted by Koga No Goshi:
For Vanya, the world! MWAHAHAHHAAHAHHA!


Sure Vanya http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[/QUOTE]

How about the loose formation testing please http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Koga No Goshi]

Ack!!!

Ahem,

For Shuko, THE WORLD! MWAHAHAHAHAHA~!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Koga no Goshi

"Insolent Horses!!!!"

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

http://gifanimados.ya.com/smileis/pequenos/facetongue.gif

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