View Full Version : Knox Appeal
Crazed Rabbit
10-03-2011, 15:35
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/03/us-italy-knox-idUSTRE7920N620111003
American student Amanda Knox made a tearful plea on Monday to be acquitted of murdering her British roommate during a brutal erotic game, saying she was paying with her life for a crime she did not commit.
"I am the same person I was four years ago," said Knox, visibly shaking and fighting to hold back tears. "I am not what they say I am," she said, seeking to rebut prosecution suggestions that she was a manipulative, sex-mad "she-devil."
"I lost a friend, in the most brutal and inexplicable way possible. My absolute faith in the police authorities was betrayed, I've had to face absolutely unfair ... and baseless accusations. I am paying with my life for things I did not commit."
The Seattle native and her Italian boyfriend at the time, Raffaele Sollecito, are fighting a 2009 verdict that found them guilty of stabbing Leeds University exchange student Meredith Kercher to death during a drug-fueled sexual assault.
The panel of two professional and six lay judges retired to consider a verdict immediately after Knox's final plea. Their decision is expected after 8 p.m. (1800 GMT) on Monday.
Seems like there's way more than just reasonable doubt, especially when the prosecution is essentially reduced to name calling.
CR
Templar Knight
10-03-2011, 15:46
Foxy Knoxy eh, sex mad, she devil? Sounds like my kinda girl :yes:
In all seriousness there is alot that went on that night - apart from sex - that raises doubts, amongst other things...
Didnt she change her statements as much as she changed boyfriends? The window was shashed from inside out, they went to a 24 hour garage to buy cleaning stuff to clean the flat, she then tried to slander the police by claiming at a later date she was beaten by them. Was on the phone at 3am or whatever time trying to establish an alibi? There is lots of questions.
One thing that cannot and should not be forgotten is that an innocent girl was raped and murdered.
I'm no judge and I know nothing about the law, but I can read people she did it
Adrian II
10-03-2011, 19:55
I guess this is why we have judges. I couldn't for the life of me decide - based on a couple of news clippings - what part she must have had in the whole affair. And I think none of us can.
AII
Started to read a little bit about the case, then stopped when my head hurt too much. "Confusing" doesn't begin to cover it.
My only question would be this: do Ms. Knox or her Italian boyfriend have any prior history? Psychiatric, criminal? 'Cause stabby rape-murders don't normally come out of nowhere.
I don't get why America paints her as a innocent trap girl who just happened to be in a drug-fueled sex orgy with a female who ended up brutually stabbed and raped by her and her boyfriend, it made no sense what so ever. There are some serious questions and they need to be addressed and I don't think both of them simply getting off the hook because of the American PR machine would be the best solution. There needs to be a serious and considered case to try to accurately determine their guilt or not.
However, with the recent changes in the evidence, the courts have decided to release and clear the both of them. Just hope that the ones responsible are found and tried because some one ended up losing their life and no one should end up like that.
johnhughthom
10-03-2011, 21:05
Well, she's been acquitted. I see where you are coming from Beskar, but I think it's a bit of an insult to the Italian legal system to suggest she was freed because of an American PR machine. As for a serious and considered case to determine her guilt, hasn't there been two?
The case does remind me of the English nanny accused of murdering a baby in the States about 15 years ago. The idea of a poor innocent girl in a forgeign country with an inept police and justice system, with the main reason for innocence seeming to be her nationality.
"I think it's a bit of an insult to the Italian legal system to suggest she was freed because of an American PR machine."
It was a comment in reference to the very strong support and campaigns in the America for her to be freed. I said they shouldn't be influenced by that, I never suggested they were.
it's getting to a point I´m not sure what I´d choose if I ever have to go to court.
a lawyer or a publicist.
Speaking from a profound well of ignorance: It seems unfair to me when people say this acquittal was due to publicity. Read up on the case. It's extremely muddled and confusing. Very hard to say what actually happened, or even to definitively state who was involved in the murder.
Cases like this make me very glad that I am not a judge.
Furunculus
10-03-2011, 22:28
seems like a dodgy case in the first place, congrats to foxxy knoxy.
Banquo's Ghost
10-03-2011, 22:39
It's a long standing principle of justice that a criminal case must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The original conviction always seemed shaky and the appeal showed that there was a considerable amount of doubt about the evidence - certainly enough to fail the test.
Other states might learn something about this maxim of the law from Italy. (Though one notes that the non-photogenic black man in this case is still in jail).
InsaneApache
10-04-2011, 01:37
I don't get why America paints her as a innocent trap girl who just happened to be in a drug-fueled sex orgy with a female who ended up brutually stabbed and raped by her and her boyfriend, it made no sense what so ever. There are some serious questions and they need to be addressed and I don't think both of them simply getting off the hook because of the American PR machine would be the best solution. There needs to be a serious and considered case to try to accurately determine their guilt or not.
However, with the recent changes in the evidence, the courts have decided to release and clear the both of them. Just hope that the ones responsible are found and tried because some one ended up losing their life and no one should end up like that.
Well said. :bow:
I'm just as confused as everyone else.
Crazed Rabbit
10-04-2011, 01:40
I have little idea what actually happened, but given the dismissal of all DNA evidence and reasonable doubt, it seems to me this was the correct decision.
CR
It's funny because here the press is calling her the "angel with the icecold eyes", apparently implying that she is cold and guilty.
The case is not so funny of course and I have more or less no opinion on it as I don't know the details. I do however agree that a justice system should not really decide by whether her nationality makes her innocent or her eyes make her guilty in the eyes of the public. In dubio pro reo with a chance that she did it anyway, in which case one would hope she does at least use her second chance now and behave.
As for finding the real murderer, it sounds almost impossible for now, maybe the two did it, maybe someone who left no/few traces did it, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to lock up everyone who is somehow related to the case based on flaky evidence and suspicions. :shrug:
As for finding the real murderer, it sounds almost impossible for now, maybe the two did it, maybe someone who left no/few traces did it, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to lock up everyone who is somehow related to the case based on flaky evidence and suspicions. :shrug:
they already have another suspect in custody that is black, a lot less photogenic and not American....so nothing that will cause a big media hub-bub....
I´m guessing the case will stay just like it is...ad eternum.
or maybe then can phone up OJ for some tips on finding the "real killers".
they already have another suspect in custody that is black, a lot less photogenic and not American....so nothing that will cause a big media hub-bub....
And a drug dealer they say. At first I understood the former boyfriend of Knox was a drug dealer, but apparently it's the third guy. Now it's just a tendency but I'd find a drug dealer more capable of murder than two students. Even if it was Knox, I think she should go free unless it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt as I prefer that over locking people up based on suspicions and sloppy police work. :shrug:
Else we could just go back to burning people at the stakes as soon as someone cries "witch!".
Templar Knight
10-04-2011, 13:32
She'll earn a fortune then overdose.
So, good for her that Italy has no death penalty, because few years ago, she would have been killed for murder...
Templar Knight
10-04-2011, 15:32
Eh? Italy abolished the death penalty in 1948
“Eh? Italy abolished the death penalty in 1948”: As teachers say, read the text before to answer: “good for her that Italy has no death penalty”.
I think what he meant was that it wasn't only a few years since 1948. It has been 63 years, which is not a few years ago relatively.
Templar Knight
10-04-2011, 22:38
I think what he meant was that it wasn't only a few years since 1948. It has been 63 years, which is not a few years ago relatively.
Exactly. As teachers say ect etc...
Yeap, but she was convince of murder few years ago... So few year ago, in case of death penalty, she would have been executed. And probably some politicians and newspapers called for the return of the Death Penalty for cases like hers... The fact is you can get out of jail, not from the grave... Except for not really well documented case(s)... As teachers say...
Templar Knight
10-04-2011, 23:11
She wouldn't have been executed a few years ago, she would have been executed if her recent appeal failed - if Italy still had the death penalty.
When she was convicted her legal team launched an appeal, can't execute someone whos launched an appeal :bow:
Anyhoo lets not argue :2thumbsup:
I think what Brenus wants to say (and at first I understood it like you did Tuff), is that if Italy had had the death penalty a few years ago, they couldn't have released her now because she would be dead.
He's obviously assuming a faster system than the US has here with wait times shorter than 12 years or so, but his point that non-death penalties can be corrected to an extent, whereas death penalties, once executed (pun not intended), cannot be reversed at all, seems valid to me.
In this case they launched an appeal, but to make a general point, there are quite a few cases where evidence seems flaky and appeals are thrown out the window or not possible anymore etc. from what I heard in the news. Wasn't there some guy who was released after having been innocent in prison for 35 years or so? It doesn't always take "just" 4 years to find out a decision was wrong, maybe extreme cases, but death penalty is an extreme measure. :shrug:
Concerning miss Knox, if she is actually guilty, then her reaction to the verdict is excellent acting, if she really were some ice cold angel or what ever they call her, I'd expect a much colder reaction (well, or an excellently acted one). Most certainly a very interesting case.
I guess this is why we have judges. I couldn't for the life of me decide - based on a couple of news clippings - what part she must have had in the whole affair. And I think none of us can.
AII
Of course we can, you can sense it when something isn't quite right just like know when someone is eying you. Judges must ignore that of course but that chick's a psycho
just like know when someone is eying you.
I don't think you can. In fact they have tested it and found that you can't. I've also been told that a lot of soldiers think they can but I still doubt it.
Judges must ignore that of course but that chick's a psycho
Wouldn't you think some kind of expert sat down with here to find out about that? Although given the many errors of the prosecution, maybe that never happened. :shrug:
I absolutely don't trust your witch hunt sense however. It's hard to come up with a verdict and it seems she was at least in the house etc. and would be at least guilty of not helping the girl, however, in a way it's a game and if one side doesn't play well (in this case police and prosecution) then the other side wins, it's unfortunate if she did murder the girl but in the large scheme of things it's quite necessary to ensure that the good guys don't become sloppy and do their job right. Else we get these cases where it's always the guy noone likes anyway because he looks a little strange/scary.
Crazed Rabbit
10-05-2011, 15:39
Of course we can, you can sense it when something isn't quite right just like know when someone is eying you. Judges must ignore that of course but that chick's a psycho
Wow I'm glad you're not a judge. That whole statement is completely wrong and what leads to innocent people spending decades in jail.
CR
scotchedpommes
10-05-2011, 17:24
The Daily Mail posted the story they'd prepared in full for the appeal rejection (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/oct/04/dailymail-amanda-knox?CMP=twt_gu), presumably after mistaking the slander verdict for the murder judgement. Not just a template article, but complete with fabricated quotes and courtroom reaction:
"As Knox realised the enormity of what judge Hellman was saying she sank into her chair sobbing uncontrollably while her family and friends hugged each other in tears.
A few feet away Meredith's mother Arline, her sister Stephanie and brother Lyle, who had flown in especially for the verdict remained expressionless, staring straight ahead, glancing over just once at the distraught Knox family.
Prosecutors were delighted with the verdict and said that 'justice has been done' although they said on a 'human factor it was sad two young people would be spending years in jail'".
[Full article (http://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/mailfail/) as posted.]
they already have another suspect in custody ...
Rudy Guede has been convicted for killing Meredith Kercher. He's finishing the third year of his 16 year sentence for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher
The case against Knox and Solliceto was that they participated jointly in the killing with Guede, which always sounded rather a little improbable to me.
Sasaki Kojiro
10-05-2011, 19:59
The Daily Mail posted the story they'd prepared in full for the appeal rejection (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/oct/04/dailymail-amanda-knox?CMP=twt_gu), presumably after mistaking the slander verdict for the murder judgement. Not just a template article, but complete with fabricated quotes and courtroom reaction:
[Full article (http://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/mailfail/) as posted.]
Too funny :laugh4:
scotchedpommes
10-05-2011, 20:11
The case against Knox and Solliceto was that they participated jointly in the killing with Guede, which always sounded rather a little improbable to me.Yes, but it was often said that Sollecito's DNA was found on Kercher's underwear. Would be reluctant to make assumptions myself without knowing exactly how such evidence was "mishandled" or "contaminated" to the point where it now seems to be deemed unusable.
Samurai Waki
10-05-2011, 21:06
The evidence is certainly muddled... genetic evidence makes not absolute evidence. Perhaps Sollecito and Kercher had a quicky...perhaps not... Guede was certainly an unsavory source of information, and perhaps he was jealous of Sollecito and Kercher? I could tell there was something very slimy about him from the beginning; and what about Amanda Knox? what is her psychological history? Was she ever questioned by Police? and if so, who was it? What is his background... this case was just way too fractured. The judge is going to have a hard time sleeping for a long time.
scotchedpommes
10-05-2011, 21:26
…and what about Amanda Knox? what is her psychological history? Was she ever questioned by Police? and if so, who was it?Yes, she alleged that she was put under pressure [physically and psychologically] by the police when she initially said her employer was involved in the murder - the slander arose from that. She's already served time for that conviction.
Regarding DNA evidence, while it's perhaps not decisive, would be interested to know why Sollecito's DNA could no longer be used. It'll be months before the prosecution appeals, though.
Catiline
10-06-2011, 02:21
Too funny :laugh4:
THe best bit about it was the photo they'd miscaptioned so instead of 'Media Scrum' it read 'Media Scum.'
Wow I'm glad you're not a judge.
So am I
CrossLOPER
10-07-2011, 02:30
Of course we can, you can sense it when something isn't quite right just like know when someone is eying you. Judges must ignore that of course but that chick's a psycho
Can you sense what I feel about this statement you made?
Can you sense what I feel about this statement you made?
Since it's morning in Russia as I type this I'm pretty sure how you feel, both of ya
TheLastDays
10-07-2011, 18:01
Of course we can, you can sense it when something isn't quite right just like know when someone is eying you. Judges must ignore that of course but that chick's a psycho
Why? If it's really as infallible as you claim, why would judges have to ignore this? But maybe it isn't as infallible as you think it is. Then your statement makes sense. Well, the latter part of it.
Ja'chyra
10-07-2011, 18:06
I'm glad she got off, if she's innocent, if it turns out she's guilty I would expect the US to hand her right back for some good old Cell Block H action.
Do I know if she's guilty? Not a clue.
CrossLOPER
10-07-2011, 20:15
Since it's morning in Russia as I type this I'm pretty sure how you feel, both of ya
YOU KNOW ABOUT ALEX??
YOU KNOW ABOUT ALEX??
He didn't mention me??
Adrian II
10-08-2011, 09:31
He didn't mention me??
Last time I spoke to Alex he didn't mention CrossLOPER either. Are you guys cheating on me? :stare:
AII
scotchedpommes
10-08-2011, 16:18
Advanced detection skills (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/08/amanda-knox-facial-expressions) continued.
"We were able to establish guilt," said Edgardo Giobbi, the lead investigator, "by closely observing the suspect's psychological and behavioural reaction during the interrogation. We don't need to rely on other kinds of investigation." Giobbi said that his suspicions were first raised just hours after the murder, at the crime scene, when he watched Knox execute a provocative swivel of her hips as she put on a pair of shoe covers.Note #1: if intent on escaping murder charge, awkward movement in presence of police a must at all times.
Ja'chyra
10-08-2011, 18:08
Oh well, in that case burn the witch.
Crazed Rabbit
10-11-2011, 02:52
Advanced detection skills (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/08/amanda-knox-facial-expressions) continued.Note #1: if intent on escaping murder charge, awkward movement in presence of police a must at all times.
I hope you're paying attention Fragony.
Also, a video of Knox at a press conference at Sea-Tac Airport; http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016448492_knox09m.html
EDIT: Oh, sexual harassment in prison as well; http://www.komonews.com/news/local/131417768.html
CR
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