California passes Dream Act. Illegal immigrants get state money for college.

[a completely inoffensive name]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2011/10/gov-jerry-brown-has-signed-california-dream-act-legislator-says.html

W (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2011/10/gov-jerry-brown-has-signed-california-dream-act-legislator-says.html)hat do you guys think of this?

[PanzerJaeger]

The legislation was opposed by most of the Republican lawmakers who questioned an expansion of programs to benefit illegal immigrants while the state is cutting services to residents who are in the country properly.

Indeed.

I guess $40 million is just a drop in the bucket, though.

[Montmorency]

For everyone talking about building a wall or sending troops to the border, this is actually the kind of stuff you need to get rid of if you want to stop the flow of illegals. Just saying.

So take that money ten times over and spend it on vigorously enforcing border impermeability.


with illegals pushing out citizens from attending colleges they deserve

Presumably, the immigrants who benefit deserve to go to college just as much as citizens. Unless, of course, you consider non-citizens to be inherently inferior.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Presumably, the immigrants who benefit deserve to go to college just as much as citizens. Unless, of course, you consider non-citizens to be inherently inferior.

They don't deserve to go to college with taxpayer money when there is a backup of legal immigrants who want the chance to live here and go to American uni's. They don't deserve to get state money when they disregarded the rules by coming in and don't pay as much in taxes as actual citizens. Nothing about them being inferior, it's all about them coming over and wanting to use American services and benefits while breaking American law at the same time.

It's not fair to legalized immigrants whose parents worked hard to be able to get the same benefits, it's not fair to birth citizens whose parents funded the public education system illegals used to qualify for college. Trying to paint me as a racist is pretty much the only tactic the left wields i nthis argument. Well if you don't want to give money to illegals so they can succeed, then you must think of them as sub-human. What?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Sounds good to me...don't see what your criticizing it for really.

[Ja'chyra]

Not inferior just not entitled

[Montmorency]

They don't deserve to go to college with taxpayer money when there is a backup of legal immigrants who want the chance to live here and go to American uni's. They don't deserve to get state money when they disregarded the rules by coming in and don't pay as much in taxes as actual citizens. Nothing about them being inferior, it's all about them coming over and wanting to use American services and benefits while breaking American law at the same time.

It's not fair to legalized immigrants whose parents worked hard to be able to get the same benefits, it's not fair to birth citizens whose parents funded the public education system illegals used to qualify for college. Trying to paint me as a racist is pretty much the only tactic the left wields i nthis argument. Well if you don't want to give money to illegals so they can succeed, then you must think of them as sub-human. What?

I doubt the kids in question intended to break the law, but OK.

Education is a good investment, so as long as you're not going to deport all of them, you might as well educate them.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Sounds good to me...don't see what your criticizing it for really.
I just don't think it is fair to everyone else. My last post explains it better.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Immigrants are good for the country. It's good to subsidize them even at the expense of natives.

I'll grant you that there's a ton of other issues relating to the state of our colleges and financial aid and such...

[a completely inoffensive name]

I doubt the kids in question intended to break the law, but OK.

Education is a good investment, so as long as you're not going to deport all of them, you might as well educate them.

The kids didn't intend to break the law, but the parents did. It's blatant abuse for parents to come with an entire family and then say, well we broke the law, but why are you punishing my kids?

Education is a good investment, but lets invest in our own citizens first, many of whom get denied grants every year.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Immigrants are good for the country. It's good to subsidize them even at the expense of natives.

I'll grant you that there's a ton of other issues relating to the state of our colleges and financial aid and such...

I agree, immigrants are good for the country. So let's overhaul the legal process of becoming a citizen, because there is a huge backlog of legals waiting to get in. Speed up the legal process somehow to work within the demands of those wanting to come in.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I agree, immigrants are good for the country. So let's overhaul the legal process of becoming a citizen, because there is a huge backlog of legals waiting to get in. Speed up the legal process somehow to work within the demands of those wanting to come in.

End result is the same isn't it? Except that now the person who loses out on a scholarship does so to a legal immigrant instead of an illegal one. But both the immigrants were brought here as children anyway, so what's the difference?

[Montmorency]

Well, the legal immigrants typically have more money. :shrug:

[a completely inoffensive name]

End result is the same isn't it? Except that now the person who loses out on a scholarship does so to a legal immigrant instead of an illegal one. But both the immigrants were brought here as children anyway, so what's the difference?

Difference is that:
A. One followed the law and one didn't, which shows how much they respect American law.
B. Legal immigrants usually have a higher responsibility put on them in terms of taxes than illegals.

Essentially by just letting anyone enter the fray with proper legalization, the uni's that only Americans pay for, now for all intents and purposes have americans competing against the rest of the world. Education should be like Social Security, you pay in and in return you get something out of it. I don't think illegals properly pay in.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Alright, I'm gonna calm down a bit. Just a bit peeved at the good point PJ highlighted.

I guess if it works (as in an overall positive benefit for the US), then it works. Gotta wait and see.

[PanzerJaeger]

Immigrants are good for the country. It's good to subsidize them even at the expense of natives.

Could you elaborate a bit on this? Are you speaking specifically in terms of education, or more generally? And are you talking about legal or illegal immigrants?

In terms of education, illegal immigrants are much more likely to a) leave the country and b) have a difficult time finding a job in which to use their state-funded skills. Considering those, it reasons that their subsidization would yield far more risky results in terms of the state's return on its investment in comparison to natives.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Could you elaborate a bit on this? Are you speaking specifically in terms of education, or more generally? And are you talking about legal or illegal immigrants?

In terms of education, illegal immigrants are much more likely to a) leave the country and b) have a difficult time finding a job in which to use their state-funded skills. Considering those, it reasons that their subsidization would yield far more risky results in terms of the state's return on its investment in comparison to natives.

First you accept the vague bit about immigrants being good for the country. Given that, it's important to give them a boost to get that family history of education. Our grade school/high school system doesn't really work well for children whose parents aren't educated.

How much more likely are illegal immigrants to leave the country once they get a degree?

[Tellos Athenaios]

More pertinently what is the alternative? Having them sit idle or occupy the entry level jobs even as they move out of college kid age into the vaguely defined timeframe of “responsible adult” and from there into “everything was better back then” dementia? At least with proper education they'll be able to post forum threads with choice examples of police brutality once the coppers find out how to get an easy catch...

As I understand it the problem with illegal immigration into the U.S. is it supposed size/volume, and the low-income, low-education, criminal-activity love triangle that goes with it? So spending $40m on avoiding 3 out of 3 for those who didn't actually make that choice and show some promise as future tax payers (it helps to have significant amount of education when filling in government paperwork, which in turn is a prerequisite for doing everything legal) seems good value for money compared to, the TSA, say.

EDIT 2: Of course the cynic would say that $40m is a cheap bargain to ensure that the illegal immigrants will be tied up doing useless college fluff at some third rate institution, instead of actually getting useful qualifications and becoming a real competitor. For instance as much the US IT workforce representatives might like to complain about foreigners undercutting the natives, the fact is that US companies pay (in comparison) top dollar to hire those foreigners *instead* of having to resort to clueless college kids at home. US colleges maintaining a generally poor standard for “CS” courses.

Secondly, if you want to get a head start: college degree is not it. That merely ensures your application is not immediately binned by HR drones who don't know what to look for anyway. Having some tangible stuff on the “projects” part of a C.V. is worth a lot more, and will help you with your interviews: you've got some real experience to talk about, as opposed to college level “doctrine” for a change.

[Tuuvi]

I'm with acin, I don't think it's right to give financial aid to illegal immigrants when it could be going to citizens and legal immigrants.

But on the other hand, the Dream act is intended for those who have grown up in the US and so are likely to remain in the US for most of their lives, so it does benefit the economy, although as Panzer pointed out an illegal will have a hard time finding a high level job even with a degree because companies aren't supposed to hire illegals.

I think if financial aid was prioritized so that citizens receive aid first, legal immigrants second and illegals last; and illegal immigrants receive legal residency or citizenship as a reward for the completion of their degree the Dream Act could be a good way to help tackle the problem of illegal immigration.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I think if financial aid was prioritized so that citizens receive aid first, legal immigrants second and illegals last; and illegal immigrants receive legal residency or citizenship as a reward for the completion of their degree the Dream Act could be a good way to help tackle the problem of illegal immigration.

The bold part is actually a big component of the Federal​ Dream Act, which has been defeated many times.

[classical_hero]

Immigrants are good for the country. It's good to subsidize them even at the expense of natives.

I'll grant you that there's a ton of other issues relating to the state of our colleges and financial aid and such...Legal immigrants are good, not illegal ones. There is a difference.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Legal immigrants are good, not illegal ones. There is a difference.

An exaggerated one. Anyway, these are the kids of illegal immigrants.

[Xiahou]

An exaggerated one. Anyway, these are the kids of illegal immigrants.I guess how exaggerated depends on how important you think laws are....

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I guess how exaggerated depends on how important you think laws are....

Do parents have a moral obligation to try and get a good life for their children?

[Major Robert Dump]

Rewarding children for their parents lawlessness is the best choice out there. Scholarships for the children of meth lab operators is next.

[CountArach]

I don't think this will have any effect on increasing Immigration, as was stated earlier in this thread, because it is highly unlikely that someone will think "Hey things have been pretty bad here and I'm teetering on the edge about whether or not to cross the border, but hey if my kid can get money from the government to attend college in 3 years then sure, I'll do it!" The problems that cause illegal immigration are far more deeply-rooted than that.

Not giving thekids money makes it seem like you are blaming them for the perceived mistakes of their parents. If one can argue that the money should not be given to the children of illegal immigrants, then one can apply the same logic equally to disqualifying them from College at all, as they take up spots that could be given to Americans.

[Ja'chyra]

If they are illegal immigrants then send them home, with their kids.

Funding illegal immigrants over natives, really? Sure way not to get elected.

[CountArach]

Sure way not to get elected.
Not so: (http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_19071775)

The issue may not have the same divisive force it had two decades ago in California, said Dan Schnur, director of the Jesse M. Unruh Institute of Politics at USC.

"There's no question both bills are very controversial, but they might be less risky and divisive for the governor than they would have been several years ago," Schnur said. "Five years ago, it was risky. Twenty years ago, it might have been political suicide. But today, there's not much political impact on Brown one way or the other."

After 20 years of polling showing overwhelming support for withholding public services to undocumented residents, a poll last year showed California evenly divided, Schnur said. That can be attributed to the growing Latino population, but also the sympathy of younger, white voters.

[CountArach]

Sorry for the double post, but I also had to put this one (http://www.gallup.com/poll/145136/Slim-Majority-Americans-Vote-DREAM-Act-Law.aspx) down here:

PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans are more likely to say they would vote for than against a law that would grant legal status to illegal immigrants brought to the United States as children if they join the military or attend college. This is the major thrust of the DREAM Act legislation Congress is now considering to provide a path to citizenship for thousands of young adults living in the United States illegally.

[Fisherking]

I just don't think it is fair to everyone else. My last post explains it better.

I don’t think it is fair to anyone else!

Certainly not the taxpayers or students competing for aid.

Illegal is illegal. I suppose this is just an effort to secure another voting block for their party. It may be an illegal voting block but they have done what they can to make it possible in the past.

I don’t blame the illegals for wanting to be here. I do blame the politicians for smoothing the way and praying on them with pandering legislation.

To me it seems more like overt political corruption. They choose to ignore legality in favor of gaining illegal votes.

How dose that benefit society?

[a completely inoffensive name]

I don’t think it is fair to anyone else!

Certainly not the taxpayers or students competing for aid.

Illegal is illegal. I suppose this is just an effort to secure another voting block for their party. It may be an illegal voting block but they have done what they can to make it possible in the past.

I don’t blame the illegals for wanting to be here. I do blame the politicians for smoothing the way and praying on them with pandering legislation.

To me it seems more like overt political corruption. They choose to ignore legality in favor of gaining illegal votes.

How dose that benefit society?

To be fair, the "gaining votes" angle is kind of lacking. In the US, blacks and hispanics have been solidly in the Democratic camp for many, many years now. Passing this bill just to further establish what is already there at the risk of turning away white moderates doesn't make much sense.

I have seen first hand how student governments at california uni's (err, at least mine) have been side by side with others, leading the lobbying for this bill to pass. I was asked I think maybe 2 or 3 times to fill out a card with a blanket statement saying, "PASS THE DREAM ACT!" which they (the students organizing this thing) said were going to be sent to the governor in many mass mailing attempts.

[CountArach]

I have seen first hand how student governments at california uni's (err, at least mine) have been side by side with others, leading the lobbying for this bill to pass. I was asked I think maybe 2 or 3 times to fill out a card with a blanket statement saying, "PASS THE DREAM ACT!" which they (the students organizing this thing) said were going to be sent to the governor in many mass mailing attempts.
Who would have thought? University students wanting to help their friends who are unable to apply for the same money to which they are eligible.

[Fisherking]

To be fair, the "gaining votes" angle is kind of lacking. In the US, blacks and hispanics have been solidly in the Democratic camp for many, many years now. Passing this bill just to further establish what is already there at the risk of turning away white moderates doesn't make much sense.

I have seen first hand how student governments at california uni's (err, at least mine) have been side by side with others, leading the lobbying for this bill to pass. I was asked I think maybe 2 or 3 times to fill out a card with a blanket statement saying, "PASS THE DREAM ACT!" which they (the students organizing this thing) said were going to be sent to the governor in many mass mailing attempts.

Students often support things that in hindsight are downright silly.

Jerry Brown…well, do they still call him Gov. Moon Beam?

Students don’t often care who pays the bills so long as it is not them.

They don’t often vote themselves but someone may vote for them, just as with the dead.

I stand by it being an indicator of corruption.

[CountArach]

They don’t often vote themselves but someone may vote for them, just as with the dead.

I stand by it being an indicator of corruption.
Would you care to substantiate this? I know that, given the state of American politics, it is entirely possible, but could you please provide explicit examples of it in order to impute political corruption as a factor in the passage of this bill?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Who would have thought? University students wanting to help their friends who are unable to apply for the same money to which they are eligible.

Depends. There are other..."helpful" activities that I hear my student government wants (or is) getting involved with, which may or may not be sketchy. I don't think it is "wanting to help their friends" so much as furthering their ideology.

If my student government really wanted to help fellow students, I can think of a lot of things they should be doing and a lot of things they should stop doing.

[CountArach]

Depends. There are other..."helpful" activities that I hear my student government wants (or is) getting involved with, which may or may not be sketchy. I don't think it is "wanting to help their friends" so much as furthering their ideology.
Student governments support all students, regardless of their immigration or citizenship status. Certainly that is the case here. As such to complain about student governments wanting to perform their function seems strange to me.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Student governments support all students, regardless of their immigration or citizenship status. Certainly that is the case here. As such to complain about student governments wanting to perform their function seems strange to me.

I am telling you, student government don't necessarily support all students. And they don't always perform their function. They can be just corrupt as real government and tasks are given that are just as absurd. College kids have no idea what real power tastes like, so when we all get to sit in a closed room around a big table on the second floor in a room with large windows, mistakes are made.

EDIT: There are college Republican chapters in every uni in the US. Probably none of them like this Dream Act. Is their student government supporting them by sending mass letters in support of the bill?

[Fisherking]

Would you care to substantiate this? I know that, given the state of American politics, it is entirely possible, but could you please provide explicit examples of it in order to impute political corruption as a factor in the passage of this bill?

Here you go!

http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saff/SAFFInfo.jsp?_pageId=tp16_government

Least likely voter group = 18 to 24

[CountArach]

I am telling you, student government don't necessarily support all students. And they don't always perform their function. They can be just corrupt as real government and tasks are given that are just as absurd. College kids have no idea what real power tastes like, so when we all get to sit in a closed room around a big table on the second floor in a room with large windows, mistakes are made.
Being actively involved in politics at my University, I am completely aware of all of these htings.

EDIT: There are college Republican chapters in every uni in the US. Probably none of them like this Dream Act. Is their student government supporting them by sending mass letters in support of the bill?
If they were given the opportunity to run for the government, yes. Just because there isn't a concensus doesn't mean there isn't a plurality. Otherwise nothing would get done by any government. Ever.

Here you go!

http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saff/SAFFInfo.jsp?_pageId=tp16_government

Least likely voter group = 18 to 24
I don't see how this supports your opinion that this was for political corruption purposes.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Being actively involved in politics at my University, I am completely aware of all of these htings.
Well then, I guess we have just to agree to disagree. I think this is one of those cases where it isn't looking in the best interests of the students and fulfilling their function.



If they were given the opportunity to run for the government, yes. Just because there isn't a concensus doesn't mean there isn't a plurality. Otherwise nothing would get done by any government. Ever.
Well, this is true but in my opinion, student government should be involved in things that help all students, not some at the expense of others because there is a consensus about who should get the shaft.

[rory_20_uk]

Providing free education is going to be a major draw to coming illegally to California. Parents are more likely to risk it if they think their children will benefit.

Illegal should mean just that. Economic migrants should be able to get passes to work, but those without should be rapidly deported.

There could be scholarships for overseas students to apply for which come with a student visa for the duration, but that is very different.

To create a system where evading the laws is beneficial creates severe moral hazard.

~:smoking:

[Major Robert Dump]

Illegals vote. Not investigating voter fraud and thereby saying it doesn't exist because they haven't found any is akin to saying the sun never sets while never going outdoors.

All of the arguments against VOTER ID requirements are are a subtle way of encouraging voter fraud. The idea that someone cannot afford a $20 ID or the transportation to go get the card are ludicrous. Even more ludicrous is the Democratic opposition to VOTER ID bills that specifically include provisions to make it easier for poor people to get those IDs.

Rewarding the children of illegal immigrants is buying votes, pure and simple. If anyone thinks that potential immigrants are not drawn to the prospect of a brighter future for their kids, no matter how far off that is, they are living in a fantasy world. And all this hubbubb about "fixing" the underlying issues is equally preposterous, as it is not out job as a country to fix Mexico.

[Beskar]

I think the Act in many ways is a good thing. You have an educated "illegal" population, who only bar for citizenship is the fact their parents are from another country. Countries like the USA thrive on immigration and the inspiration and creation of ideas since the workhorses of China and India are fueling the production pipelines. Since these kids would have to be intelligent to qualify for this in the first place, it would mean they would advance in American society becoming "legal" and bringing future profits and return for the nation.

They are there anyway, and if they are there, it probably might end up cheaper for them to go through this route where the nation might benefit from it, then it is to get them out of the country.

[Ja'chyra]

So if a guy decides to murder someone would you let them go free as you are too late to save the victim?

[Fisherking]

I don't see how this supports your opinion that this was for political corruption purposes.

What MRD said!

That is how it is corrupt.

[CountArach]

What MRD said!

That is how it is corrupt.
So why does it matter if young people are the least electorally active age bracket? I'm really just trying to figure out why you posted that link.

[Fisherking]

So why does it matter if young people are the least electorally active age bracket? I'm really just trying to figure out why you posted that link.

Because I misread your request as wanting voter information.

American Politicians, like any others do most everything to stay in office and very little is directed toward the public good.

Over the last three of four decades this has only become increasingly blatant, at least in the US.

It may be couched in terms that are more publicly acceptable but it is still advantage seeking at public expense.

If they truly wanted to put things right they would take a more liberal approach to improving their legal situation. But it is actually to their advantage to keep them as an underclass while appearing to care about their plight.

[Major Robert Dump]

Turn the parents into martyrs. Like the ghetto scum on Maury saying I TAKE CARE OF MY BABY as if we thought it was, ya know, normal to do otherwise.

They came here for a better life, due largely in part to an extremely generous welfare system and politicians who look the other way. WIC, Food Stamps and Medicaid were the immediate benefits, stuff like the DREAM ACT are the long term benefits.

If you think otherwise, look at what is happening in Alabama. Enforce the law and people leave. Funny how the liberal press is making it sound like a mass exodus which will destroy the economy, which it isn't and it won't. But people still left.

FACT: Several FBI, DEA and ATF investigations of drug/weapons gangs from Mexico had to pull up stakes and move to other states prior to the enactment of the since-stricken Arizona law that enforced immigration law. Why? Because the gangs (who were illegal immigrants and in some cases catered to illegal immigrants) moved out of Arizona when it became apparent the law would go into effect. One such gang moved into Oklahoma City, where the bust was executed a month later before they could move again when Oklahoma started talking about such law.

Relaxing the standards will draw the people who thrive by violating the law.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

To create a system where evading the laws is beneficial creates severe moral hazard.

~:smoking:

It isn't beneficial. It's just less of a negative than it was.


Illegals vote. Not investigating voter fraud and thereby saying it doesn't exist because they haven't found any is akin to saying the sun never sets while never going outdoors.

All of the arguments against VOTER ID requirements are are a subtle way of encouraging voter fraud. The idea that someone cannot afford a $20 ID or the transportation to go get the card are ludicrous. Even more ludicrous is the Democratic opposition to VOTER ID bills that specifically include provisions to make it easier for poor people to get those IDs.

Rewarding the children of illegal immigrants is buying votes, pure and simple. If anyone thinks that potential immigrants are not drawn to the prospect of a brighter future for their kids, no matter how far off that is, they are living in a fantasy world. And all this hubbubb about "fixing" the underlying issues is equally preposterous, as it is not out job as a country to fix Mexico.

No, people really do believe it is the right thing to do. I'm with you on voter id though, the people complaining about that are pathetic.

[Tellos Athenaios]

@MRD: No, Mexico is the neighbour that doesn't take care of his property and let weeds fester all over the place. Your choice is one of:
(a) Do nothing as it's his weeds now festering in your garden
(b) Write a stern note telling the weeds to go fester somewhere else.
(c) Sigh and spend extra time and effort in maintaining your garden.

Now, Mexico is that country with next to no prospects for many of its people. The USA by comparison is the promised land. Your choice to deal with the flow of illegal immigrants is to:
(a) Do nothing. Free flow of people, goods, trade, ftw. Didn't bully those countries into that free tradezone for nothing, you know...
(b) Write a stern note and impose border patrols to tell people off for trying to get into the USA.
(c) Sigh and spend extra cleaning up the mess people make (kids who are stuck between a rock [Mexico] and a hard place [illegality]) when they manage to enter the USA eventually. This amounts to spending more on your infrastructure for education, health etc.

So yeah, this law doesn't make it into the “genuinely great idea” bracket of laws but it does make it in the “good” category because it's not actually deaf and blind to reality (as opposed to your alcohol/drug laws).

[Tuuvi]

The bold part is actually a big component of the Federal​ Dream Act, which has been defeated many times.

Considering the way US politics work just because something has been defeated doesn't mean it wouldn't work or is a bad idea.

[Veho Nex]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2011/10/gov-jerry-brown-has-signed-california-dream-act-legislator-says.html

W (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2011/10/gov-jerry-brown-has-signed-california-dream-act-legislator-says.html)hat do you guys think of this?

Well someones gotta get the money that continually escapes my grasp.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Considering the way US politics work just because something has been defeated doesn't mean it wouldn't work or is a bad idea. not what I was insinuating.

[Tuuvi]

Oh ok sorry for misunderstanding.

[PanzerJaeger]

First you accept the vague bit about immigrants being good for the country.

I completely agree with that notion when applied to legal immigrants. America should be fighting for the best minds in the world (and subsidizing their education and research), but a lot of our immigration policies - especially those implemented after 9/11 - do the exact opposite.

However, the vast majority of the immigrants we're talking about are not the best minds in the world - far from it. They are a drag on the system, not a boost. Further, as I mentioned before, the biggest issue with this law without a path to citizenship (which California could not offer) is that it is a monumental waste of resources. Many businesses are willing to take a risk and hire illegals for menial tasks in order to get the wage benefits, but very few are willing to hire, for example, a new VP of Operations or a lab technician, when they could be picked up and carted off by ICE at any moment. Hiring people for managerial or technical positions requires a substantial investment in resources for a business that goes far beyond the salary offered, and filling such positions with illegals presents significant risk.


How much more likely are illegal immigrants to leave the country once they get a degree?

I'm not sure. I would reason that they would be more likely to leave as they cannot get a degree-appropriate job here but are more marketable in their home countries.

[Papewaio]

Well there are several problems.

a) All citizens who are smart enough should be able to go to university at a reasonable rate.

b) Send the illegals home.

c) Exception: Those who are really the best & brightest the top 0.1% let them go to Uni on a bond. If they don't pay back the bond with x years of work then send the whole family home. If they do give them citizenship and the rest of the family residency.

d) Any state politician putting in benefits to illegal immigrants counter to federal policy is kicked out of office, given twenty years and can never run for office again.

e) Spend the $40 million on scholarships for illegals in their country of origin.

[Ironside]

Illegals vote. Not investigating voter fraud and thereby saying it doesn't exist because they haven't found any is akin to saying the sun never sets while never going outdoors.

All of the arguments against VOTER ID requirements are are a subtle way of encouraging voter fraud. The idea that someone cannot afford a $20 ID or the transportation to go get the card are ludicrous. Even more ludicrous is the Democratic opposition to VOTER ID bills that specifically include provisions to make it easier for poor people to get those IDs.


How are you guys voting over there? Here you can't vote unless you're a registered citizen on the electoral roll that's in the closest voting center (usually the closest school). If you vote somewhere else, then they need to phone up that center to confirm that you exist. And you will always need to provide ID.


So if a guy decides to murder someone would you let them go free as you are too late to save the victim?

Certainly not, to be certain we must also punish thier children. And their children in turn.

Now, PJ pointed out something quite important, that it still doesn't provide a way to citizenship. Simply put, it's a bit of pragmatism vs ideological issues. If an illegal can stay for decades without much difficulty, then it simply starts to be better to legitimize those people than having them create a permanent underclass and continue to shout that they shouldn't be there.

[Beskar]

Simply put, it's a bit of pragmatism vs ideological issues. If an illegal can stay for decades without much difficulty, then it simply starts to be better to legitimize those people than having them create a permanent underclass and continue to shout that they shouldn't be there.

Agreed.