retraining Highland Clansmen? What is the point?

[bunt0025]

I've never done it... as I've always thought that they are a cheap unit to support. Unless you are actively trimming large amounts of force... why not keep a new HC unit originating in Scotland on every turn? To counter them, the AI builds horses... and horses cost lots to support. Train, train, train!.. why retrain?

[drone]

Usually, I would just merge depleted units, but retraining can be useful if armour or morale buildings have been added to Scotland since the original unit was recruited. Adding the extra bonuses to an experienced unit helps.

[Brandy Blue]

I don't think retrained units benefit from morale buildings, except I assume that any new guys added to the unit when it retrains would have the morale bonus. Improving the armor on a low armor/high valor unit does make sense though.

By and large I agree with Drone. Clansmen just aren't valuable enough to bother retraining in most circumstances when you can just churn out and merge them.

[caravel]

If I recall correctly, retrained units do get their base morale upgraded to whatever the province's morale bonus provides (Someone feel free to correct me as I may have this wrong, but that sticks in my mind for some reason).

[drone]

I think building upgrades do get applied to all men in the unit. But I don't think provincial valour bonuses get added to existing troops, just new recruits (of course in the case of Highlanders it doesn't matter).

[bunt0025]

If I recall correctly, retrained units do get their base morale upgraded to whatever the province's morale bonus provides (Someone feel free to correct me as I may have this wrong, but that sticks in my mind for some reason).

I'll test it out. Interesting, though... I've often ended up using Sweden (while not playing the Viking equipped nationalities) as an iron upgraded woodsmen producer. I also utilize another prov... sometimes Lith but sometimes Norway to build the morale boosting buildings. Anyways, woodsmen are cheap enough to train & then immediately retrain, that I can get some pretty advanced armour piercing troops fairly early on in the game. 60men 22upkeep 75+75cost. Although, I never tested to see which prov should initiate the training.


"I think building upgrades do get applied to all men in the unit. But I don't think provincial valour bonuses get added to existing troops, just new recruits (of course in the case of Highlanders it doesn't matter)." -Drone

True, but now you have me wondering about other units :)

[Stazi]

Retrained units get all bonuses from buildings and province the same way as newly recruited. It especially useful when a unit's commender gets some vices that reduce the unit stats below certain value. For example if you have unit with 3 valour (2 from building and one from province) and the unit's commander gets -2 volour vice, you can retrain the unit and it'll have 3 valour again. Of course if your unit will have 5 valour or more it won't work at all.

[Geezer57]

For example if you have unit with 3 valor (2 from building and one from province) and the unit's commander gets -2 valor vice, you can retrain the unit and it'll have 3 valor again.
How do you get that much of a valor upgrade for Highland Clansmen? Don't they only benefit from the province bonus and Master Swordsmith building? Maybe your comments didn't apply to HC?

Unless you assassinate him first, the commander's vices don't go away with retraining. Why would they not continue to be applicable after retraining the unit?

Inquiring minds want to know - need more info on this.

Cheers!

[Stazi]

How do you get that much of a valor upgrade for Highland Clansmen? Don't they only benefit from the province bonus and Master Swordsmith building? Maybe your comments didn't apply to HC?
I'm sorry. Yes, you're right. It's not about HC, just a general example how it works.


Unless you assassinate him first, the commander's vices don't go away with retraining. Why would they not continue to be applicable after retraining the unit?
Again, you're right. Vices don't go away but they are applied the moment commander's get them. After that they stay with commander as nothing else but a text info. I'm not sure if all v&v work that way but valour modifiers certainly do. You can easily spot it in game.

[Geezer57]

Again, you're right. Vices don't go away but they are applied the moment commander's get them. After that they stay with commander as nothing else but a text info. I'm not sure if all V&V work that way but valor modifiers certainly do. You can easily spot it in game.
Thanks for the extra info. So if a commander's unit is worn down to just a few men, or just the commander himself, when that unit is retrained the valor V&V would only apply to the original survivors of the time the V&V was first applied? Thats food for thought.

And would certainly save on assassins...:yes:

[Stazi]

Thanks for the extra info. So if a commander's unit is worn down to just a few men, or just the commander himself, when that unit is retrained the valor V&V would only apply to the original survivors of the time the V&V was first applied?
It works not only with decimated units. For example - you recruit new unit with 3 valour. Next turn commander gets a nasty vice that gives -2 valour so now unit has 1 valour. You put unit for retrain and... next turn you get unit with 3 valour again. The unit's commander still has the vice but it looks like it doesn't affect the unit.

[Geezer57]

Ah, that's good to know. Thanks Stazi!

Cheers!

[drone]

It works not only with decimated units. For example - you recruit new unit with 3 valour. Next turn commander gets a nasty vice that gives -2 valour so now unit has 1 valour. You put unit for retrain and... next turn you get unit with 3 valour again. The unit's commander still has the vice but it looks like it doesn't affect the unit.
Very interesting. If the unit commander is killed/assassinated/burnt at the stake, is the penalty removed and their valour goes up 2 points to 5?

[Stazi]

Very interesting. If the unit commander is killed/assassinated/burnt at the stake, is the penalty removed and their valour goes up 2 points to 5?
I've just checked it and the answer is no. Valour is not recalculated after commander's death (looks like valour penalty is applied only the moment commander gets a vice). IMO it's good. If it works like you described you'd be able to create high valour units for free (for the cost of one man).

[bunt0025]

I think building upgrades do get applied to all men in the unit. But I don't think provincial valour bonuses get added to existing troops, just new recruits (of course in the case of Highlanders it doesn't matter).

Yes, I've confirmed the provincial vs building line valor upgrade retraining anomaly. Provincial valor upgrades only apply to new men... whether a fresh unit altogether or retraining a partial strength unit... only new men get provincial upgrades.

Next, I'm curious if anyone has any experience with morale downgrades from retraining. If one trains with a morale boost, but then retains in another province that doesn't have the morale boost, does the unit's morale downgrade? I get different results.

[drone]

Next, I'm curious if anyone has any experience with morale downgrades from retraining. If one trains with a morale boost, but then retains in another province that doesn't have the morale boost, does the unit's morale downgrade? I get different results.

I assume the new troops recruited don't get the bonus, so the replacements might dilute to overall morale value. I haven't run any tests on this though, but I believe the unit morale is just an average of all the individual men in the unit (bonuses and morale from valour included). An individual soldier shouldn't lose value on a stat when retraining.

[bunt0025]

I assume the new troops recruited don't get the bonus, so the replacements might dilute to overall morale value. I haven't run any tests on this though, but I believe the unit morale is just an average of all the individual men in the unit (bonuses and morale from valour included). An individual soldier shouldn't lose value on a stat when retraining.

No, I'm saying if I take a whole unit of church trained militia sgts and then retrain them to get a weapon bonus, then they loose their morale bonus in the retraining. Essentially, the last morale equipped prov that the unit is trained in... reflects the PREvalor morale of the unit. Previous morale boosts disappear.

[Stazi]

AFAIK soldiers never loose their experience. If they are retrained the inexperienced recruits are added to the unit lowering average unit's valour. I don't know how morale works because it's hard to track. I always thought that when a unit is retrained, new soldiers are added and all veterans' statistics are upped to the level of the new ones (if necessary). If veterans have higher statistics, they stay unchanged. I don't have any proof of it but if you try to retrain full unit (recruited before province being upgraded with e.g. master level building), the unit's parameters are visibly upped to match the new, higher standard.

Attack and armor bonuses work differently. You can check it by trying to combine two units, one "naked" and other with some bonuses. If you add "naked" soldiers to the better equipped unit, all soldiers become better equipped. The bonuses in the better equipped unit are not lowered/averaged but visibly stay the same as before. You can use this little trick to upgrade some old but decimated veteran unit for free. Soldiers carry over their valour (and probably morale) and get new swords and armors for free :).

btw The cost of retraining equals the cost of a new unit, no matter how many soldiers are added. You can even retrain full unit (for armor, valour, etc. bonuses) and you still pay full cost.

[drone]

It's been said that the armor/weapon bonuses are attached to the unit commander, he controls the kit so adding new men from other units get the unit's current equipment. I don't think you can actually tell if this happens or if the unit card is just displaying what the original unit/commander was equipped with, but this has always been how I treat it in game.

Combined with the aforementioned retraining costs, I generally merge lesser equipped units into better ones to reinforce, then send the leftovers to get retrained with better kit. I tend to overlook morale though, since it's not readily visible.

[bunt0025]

You can take that unit of militia sgts and retain (whole) in another province. Then, check their stats, then frame/kill the general and recheck their stats.

I run into the issue with woodsmen, a lot. It is tempting to produce them in Lithuania but then retrain for iron weapon bonuses in Sweden due to their dirt cheap cost.

[Togakure]

Something I just did in a Danish campaign: I devoted Norway to producing the cheap +1 valor vikings and developed its infrastructure to include a Cathedral and Master Armorer. After producing each gold-shield viking, I sent them next door to Sweden, where I had developed the infrastructure to include a Master Weaponsmith. Retraining the gold-shield, +1 valor viking in Sweden resulted in a Gold-shield, Gold-sword +1 valor viking with the Cathedral morale bonus. Ridiculously effective unit. Dirt cheap and makes Huscarles look like peasants. Plus you can produce them throughout all eras.

Until I tried this I didn't do much retraining. Since, I've been taking a closer look at retraining possibilities. This technique works great for important, high-ranking heirs & generals too if you build a Royal Court in the provinces with the high-level armorer/weaponsmiths.

Bit of a necro but I figure any posting nowadays is a good thing, heh. Happy gaming.

[edyzmedieval]

This is actually brilliant, Togakure. Something to try in a new campaign and to be fair - I never played the Danes.

[drone]

Something I just did in a Danish campaign: I devoted Norway to producing the cheap +1 valor vikings and developed its infrastructure to include a Cathedral and Master Armorer. After producing each gold-shield viking, I sent them next door to Sweden, where I had developed the infrastructure to include a Master Weaponsmith. Retraining the gold-shield, +1 valor viking in Sweden resulted in a Gold-shield, Gold-sword +1 valor viking with the Cathedral morale bonus. Ridiculously effective unit. Dirt cheap and makes Huscarles look like peasants. Plus you can produce them throughout all eras.

I used to do this all the time as the Danes, except I would usually build both the Master Armourer and Master Weaponsmith in Sweden. Also, if I had the trade routes really cranking I could spam fully upgraded Huscarles from Sweden before High arrived. Expensive, but quite entertaining!

[Togakure]

Oh I like Huscarles--just the idea of them makes me think of Frazetta's cover art for Karl Edward Wagner's "Dark Crusade." :yes: But yeah, expensive, and I tend to expand only to Sweden and Norway early on (unless an opportunity I can't pass up occurs in the UK), so I have to make the most out of what I spend until the big Trade bucks start kicking in. +1 Valor vikings for 131 florins and 37 florins upkeep is a great value, particularly once you get some armor and morale improvements going in Norway. I usually get my Trade going really strong well before High hits, and do build some Huscarles once I can easily afford them. They're great for intimidating rivals into not attacking Norway and Flanders in the Early era.

Since the OP is about retraining, one thing I do with the Danes is retrain all Valor 0 vikings I trained at the beginning before taking Norway so all of them eventually get the +1 valor bonus from Norway after I take it. I usually can't afford to build a lot of new units early on anyway, so I figure why not use that production queue to retrain what I've got in the mean time. I usually start doing this after my first level of Armorer is built for a +1 attack, +2 defense, +1 armor, +2 morale improvement overall. Well worth the micromanagement if you ask me. I queue up one at a time so my parity level remains effective.

For a while now, I've been forgoing the 3D battlefield and focusing on the board game, auto-resolving battles. This shifts the focus to grand strategy and speeds up campaigns. Occasionally I'll fight a battle that looks particularly fun, but nowadays I usually just auto-resolve. Got plenty of battlefield joy back in the day against human stalwarts in MP.

The reason I split the armorer and weaponsmith structures between two provinces is cost in time to build. I end up with both much faster than if I built both in a single province, and this also allows Sweden to focus on its primary function--trade and agri cash cow--early. I find this important for a Danish campaign because it's so slow going financially for quite a while.

Recently I hit a milestone in a campaign that I'd never hit before: over a million florins in my treasury by 1260 in an Early campaign without having to skimp on anything. I was able to bribe like crazy, weathered several lengthy trade route interruptions, eventually dominate the seas, and build like a madman. Bribing can enable province take-overs without any damage to existing infrastructure, which can save huge amounts of costly development time, significantly speeding up expansion once you get the war machine rolling. At the moment I'm trying to figure out why sometimes I can bribe a besieged army, and sometimes I can't. When I succeed there's no damage to the province, but when I don't, stuff gets damaged or destroyed. Maybe the bride has to be initiated before my attack on the province? Still not sure about this.

So yeah, learning about economic power on the board game and it's been an awesome compliment to military strategy.