Table for One

[Strike For The South]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15915118


Sixty-one percent of unmarried men aged 18 and 34 do not have a partner, nor do half of unmarried women the same age.



More than a quarter of the men and 23% of the women said they were not even looking.


I found this article interesting and I find the other topics here boring, so I'm posting this

Well what accounts for this? Is it technology? A crushing work week? The ugliness of the Japanese people?

At the end of the day it's these kinds of sociological shifts that fundamentally change socities, not war, not money. I am disturbed, not so much by the amount of singles but by the fact that most of them don't seem to care. Humans are social creatures so why are we moving so quickly towards an insulated society?

[Lemur]

All I can think of is incentives; in other words, pairing up and being social is natural, like you said, so there must be incentives and disincentives driving people to singledom in Japan. Maybe high cost of moving/shacking up/making a home? Maybe bad social habits for how men treat women who are now too educated to put up with bum deals? I don't know. But you can bet your banana that there are incentives at work here. Just don't know what they are.

[Strike For The South]

All I can think of is incentives; in other words, pairing up and being social is natural, like you said, so there must be incentives and disincentives driving people to singledom in Japan. Maybe high cost of moving/shacking up/making a home? Maybe bad social habits for how men treat women who are now too educated to put up with bum deals? I don't know. But you can bet your banana that there are incentives at work here. Just don't know what they are.

Late marrige and small families are hallmarks of post industrialized nations but 1/4 of people aren't even looking, these numbers just seem so staggering. Something is it a play here I just can't put my finger on it

I thought about Japan being unuiqe as one the few Non-Western Post indusrials, I am vaguley familiar with the culture their and I know their are differences but this stats couple with, lets be frank, the absolutely depraved pornography that comes out go hand in hand IMO

[Lemur]

[T]his stats couple with, lets be frank, the absolutely depraved pornography that comes out go hand in hand IMO
If you want to assert a connection between tentacle porn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tentacle_erotica) and chronic singledom, I'm all ears. But correlation is not causation, like the man says (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mdp9z30gwY&t=1m47s).

[Strike For The South]

If you want to assert a connection between tentacle porn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tentacle_erotica) and chronic singledom, I'm all ears. But correlation is not causation, like the man says (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mdp9z30gwY&t=1m47s).

I wish I could! I understand that the culture is different but the rates are skyrocketting in the country itself so there has to be something driving it. Hence opening it up to the peanut gallery

[Ja'chyra]

Maybe people are happier in their own company and don't feel the need to bow to social pressure to be part of a couple any more.

A bit like people saying that marriages used to last longer in the old days, anyone tied that up with the difference in the amount of happy people between then and now? What would you prefer married and miserable or single and content, if not happy?

Oh, I'm not single, did I just spoil my own argument?

[Tellos Athenaios]

@Strike, Lemur: writing has been on the wall for some time now. For instance, increasingly divorces happen when the couple retires from working life, i.e. when they are actually forced to spend some time together.

Furthermore, Japan has a culture where people seek relief/comfort in clubs rather than in relationship which in a striking example of gender equality now includes women as well; combined with a culture which finds it fairly normal that middle aged people still live at their parents'.

So, for instance, you have a large and growing population of well-educated, high earning women for whom it is altogether much less bother (and sometimes even cheaper) simply to hire someone from a club to accompany on a day of shopping, dinning, and a night out rather than seek a partner. For men the hiring bit was always the case and often the norm, anyway. Corporate culture was/is such that if a hosting company books you a hotel room you might well be visited by an (already paid for) escort as well.

Additionally, you still have the older model of the loveless marriage which their parents are stuck with the old social inequalities and traps. There's a sentiment of “no, thanks” there.

[Beskar]

I believe there was something about the very high expecations of the Japanese Women excludes the vast majority of men, causing very high rates of being single.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I believe there was something about the very high expecations of the Japanese Women excludes the vast majority of men, causing very high rates of being single.

Possibly, but at the core one of the preconditions is quite simple really, and applies in Japan, China, and to some extent pretty much anywhere actually: do you have your own place? If yes that is an instant boost in appeal, if no you better had something really special going for you.

That is why Chinese men for instance accept very bad living and working conditions: to save up enough to buy that property. Otherwise, they believe, she will never consider them.

[drone]

It's obvious, really. The Japanese have secretly perfected sex robots. :yes:

[Papewaio]

This is a world wide phenomenon with very few exceptions people in cities have less children.

Couple of key factors:
Cost of housing. Unless you are comfortable living under the same roof as your in laws then you need your own place to be attractive to a mate.
Competition... And this is one of the factors that apply to countryside is TVs show idealistic lifestyles that people attempt to have. Soaps in rural India have dropped birth rates as women (and men) desire the good life.

Education. Higher educated women have less children. They also normally have to pay for that education. Meaning they start work later in life and work longer. They then expect a partner who is equal or better.

All cities are showing a slowing down of birth rates. Cities are energy efficient, vibrant, dangerous and exciting... Who needs kids? Becomes the norm. Japan is just one of the countries at the leading edge of this trend. Which as a high density (expensive housing), highly educated workforce who are focused on continous improvent fit the bill for reduced birth rates.

So do EU cities, look at the birth rates in Italy for instance. I'm even sure Greek cities have a declining birth rates.

[Ronin]

Story of my life! I keep asking, but Jessica Alba just won't go on a date with me. :bigcry:

have you considered Mila Kunis?
very sexy..and apparently you can get away with just asking.

[Montmorency]

That is why you Chinese men

Beskar is Chinese? For some reason, I thought he was Polish.

[a completely inoffensive name]

1. People don't know what they want in a partner and no one teaches them the tools to figure it out.
2. Our culture glorifies not being steady, not being with just one person.
3. People don't know what love is or how much work it takes to keep it going.
4. The current fight over what marriage is or isn't between same sex couples that are obviously in love and religious regressives who want to keep the definition pinned to the time period they feel comfortable with makes the entire institution seem more arbitrary to the youth.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Sex education in schools pretty much encourages everybody to run around having sex for fun.

This takes away a pretty big incentive to get married that people with more traditional values have.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Sex education in schools pretty much encourages everybody to run around having sex for fun.

This takes away a pretty big incentive to get married that people with more traditional values have.

I see nothing wrong with people having sex for fun as long as they understand the value of having a partner. I don't think that sex should be an incentive to get married in the first place. The incentive of marriage should be to have your love legally declared and recorded and to make a (theoretically) lifelong bond with another person. Sex shouldn't be entering your mind at all in that spot.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The incentive of marriage should be to have your love legally declared and recorded and to make a (theoretically) lifelong bond with another person. Sex shouldn't be entering your mind at all in that spot.

Really? I've heard a lot of people say they wouldn't marry someone they hadn't had sex with because they don't know if they would be 'compatible'. I know you are more 'liberal' so would you share that sentiment?

I don't see how you can separate marriage and sex.


It is a well documented fact that ignorance increases the likelyhood of teenage pregnancy.

Yeah, the only thing that increases it more is sex.


Sex education may not drastically reduce the incidences of underage sex by any means, but the education about how to deal with the consequences is absolutely vital.

I am alright with teaching people about contraception etc. What I don't like is that (in the UK education system at least) morals were also brought into it and kids were told to believe that having pre-marital sex is OK.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Really? I've heard a lot of people say they wouldn't marry someone they hadn't had sex with because they don't know if they would be 'compatible'. I know you are more 'liberal' so would you share that sentiment?
Hmm, that is tricky. I don't share that sentiment but that's because I think that having sex before marriage is something that couples should do to create a stronger emotional bond with each other. I don't think couples should abstain from sex before marriage and I think that when you are standing on the altar you are there because of love, not because you are excited about having sex. Marriage is a declaration, a promise, a commitment, not a ticket to the bedroom.



I don't see how you can separate marriage and sex.

Ummm, well marriage is about declaring your being in love. Sex is about having fun or creating emotional bonds with another person. They are closely related, but not the same thing.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hmm, that is tricky. I don't share that sentiment but that's because I think that having sex before marriage is something that couples should do to create a stronger emotional bond with each other. I don't think couples should abstain from sex before marriage and I think that when you are standing on the altar you are there because of love, not because you are excited about having sex. Marriage is a declaration, a promise, a commitment, not a ticket to the bedroom.

Don't get me wrong, I agree completely that marriage should not be as you say a ticket to the bedroom. It would be a bit of a perversion of marriage if I met a nice girl and married her just for that (though oddly enough the way I'm going that might be the natural conclusion of my beliefs when it comes to it... no, be good! :whip:). My version of Christianity seems to be inherently self-destructive in general.

But seriously, if you aren't 'getting some' on a casual basis, it gets you motivated to get out there more and look for somebody.


Ummm, well marriage is about declaring your being in love. Sex is about having fun or creating emotional bonds with another person. They are closely related, but not the same thing.

I think our different ideas on marriage probably come from our views on sex outwith marriage; neither are necessarily correct as its not exactly something that is striclty defined.

If for you sex is something that is normal outwith marriage, naturally it will be less connected to your idea of what marriage means. For people with my values that isn't true.

[Nowake]

This is a world wide phenomenon with very few exceptions people in cities have less children.

Couple of key factors:
Cost of housing. Unless you are comfortable living under the same roof as your in laws then you need your own place to be attractive to a mate.
Competition... And this is one of the factors that apply to countryside is TVs show idealistic lifestyles that people attempt to have. Soaps in rural India have dropped birth rates as women (and men) desire the good life.

Education. Higher educated women have less children. They also normally have to pay for that education. Meaning they start work later in life and work longer. They then expect a partner who is equal or better.

All cities are showing a slowing down of birth rates. Cities are energy efficient, vibrant, dangerous and exciting... Who needs kids? Becomes the norm. Japan is just one of the countries at the leading edge of this trend. Which as a high density (expensive housing), highly educated workforce who are focused on continous improvent fit the bill for reduced birth rates.

So do EU cities, look at the birth rates in Italy for instance. I'm even sure Greek cities have a declining birth rates.

Re-quoting Pape's response because it seems to have been overlooked, when in fact someone should've added /thread right after it was posted :tired:

[a completely inoffensive name]

But seriously, if you aren't 'getting some' on a casual basis, it gets you motivated to get out there more and look for somebody.
Looking for "somebody" or "a body"? Big difference there.



I think our different ideas on marriage probably come from our views on sex outwith marriage; neither are necessarily correct as its not exactly something that is striclty defined.

If for you sex is something that is normal outwith marriage, naturally it will be less connected to your idea of what marriage means. For people with my values that isn't true.
Yeah, I can see where you are coming from and I respect that.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Beskar is Chinese? For some reason, I thought he was Polish.

No, that was merely an unfortunate collision of two sentences I thought I had edited out properly.

[Husar]

But seriously, if you aren't 'getting some' on a casual basis, it gets you motivated to get out there more and look for somebody.

Well, in that case you may have married the wrong partner, a person who loves you would naturally want to make sure you're 'getting enough', wouldn't they?

A lot of men complain that they stopped 'getting any' after marriage and use that as a reason to decry marriage. I usually think their marriage is probably based on the wrong ideas/things, whatever those are, sex could be one, money another.

There are also men who keep saying they only get manipulative women etc. but they keep looking for women in the same places and for the same types of women that may attract them more physically. IMO it's no surprise then that they keep having the same problems with women.

And then men and women also create bubbles,just making themselves look better or even lying about things, being especially charming etc. that will naturally burst after a while and only serve for initial attraction.
Necessary in a way but if it's completely overdone and you base a relationship on it, failure may be pre-programmed.

Just my two cents from an observer's POV. ~;)

[Ronin]

There are also men who keep saying they only get manipulative women etc. but they keep looking for women in the same places and for the same types of women that may attract them more physically. IMO it's no surprise then that they keep having the same problems with women.


this is true for both sexes....women also constantly complain about the men they date, yet they keep up the same patterns.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/nov/27/kate-bolick-women-marriage-relationships?INTCMP=SRCH

I (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/nov/27/kate-bolick-women-marriage-relationships?INTCMP=SRCH) have always been of the opinion that we poor bastards do whatever they want, whether we realise it or not.

Apparently, the women aren't looking.

[SwordsMaster]

I think we're deviating from the OP. The issue here is that 'they're not looking'.

IMO, the incentive to legalise unions has been removed. For the men, it is the expensive divorces, expensive housing (which in many parts of the world men are still expected to provide for the family), other various threats to 'masculinity' which derive from women becoming more powerful, yes, the free availability of porn, and Japan being the land of karoshi, the ridiculous work schedules which don't leave a lot of time for a social life.

For the women, it is likely the fear of being stuck like their mothers/grandmothers, as well as many of the factors that affect men.

There is this worrying trend of social isolation, due to complete lack of personal space. People are trapped in their heads because they are constantly surrounded by other people, and I think in a way it is a reaction to that. I mean if my parents continued monitoring me every day for the past 10 years, I would probably have deep issues too. (Although arguably be much more accomplished at my job... and saved a ton of money)

Contemplate too that social isolation is a major reason for suicide in Japan too, so in a way it is a vicious circle, with societal expectations, 21st century TV lifestyle allure, and people's own insecurities coming into play. Before the advent of internet porn, always available, people would have to go out and socialise to fulfill sexual irges. Which would inevitably lead to more coupling.

Also, don't forget this part of the article: No point in speculating over the whys when they are provided...


Some cited a shortage of money, others a belief that it is impossible to find a good partner once they had passed the age of 25.
Many of the women also said single life suited them better than how they imagined marriage would be.
The survey also found that more than quarter of unmarried men and women between 35 and 39 years old said they had never had sex.

[Fragony]

I like being single. The only ones expecting me to do anything are my cats. Not looking, fine with me neither am I.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I have always been of the opinion that we poor bastards do whatever they want, whether we realise it or not.

Apparently, the women aren't looking.

I think that is only really true though for people in a certain environment. I know people my age that went through university tend to still live at home, either sleep around or flit from one relationship to the next, and will probably not even consider marriage till their careers are well on the go.

But in the non-professional environment where I work, two different couples just got/are getting married, both IIRC age 21 so just a year below me.

Which makes me feel even worse, guess peer pressure really works. Thank God I am at least getting a mortgage and my own place in the coming weeks.

I just want to enter adult life properly, none of this business with sitting playing video games in the parents basement when you're 29. I think this extension of the teenage years is why people aren't taking responsibility and settling down.

[Ja'chyra]

Just my two cents from an observer's POV. ~;)

Observer or player???????? :devil:

Rhyfhylwyr

Seriously bud, I know you're into your religion and all that but sex outside of marriage is Ok and it is everyones own choice if they want to flit around so long as they know enough, and respect themselves enough, to make sure it's on their own terms. I honestly don't know why people give it such deep meaning, educate and then act responsibly but don't impose your morals.

[Rhyfelwyr]

How am I imposing my morals?

[Ja'chyra]

How am I imposing my morals?

Should've put some returns in between the last two sentences.

You aren't imposing your morals but some do, or at least try to, namely religions.

But what make you think your way is better?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Moral rules are generally supposed to be imposed. That's kind of the point.

You can criticize the simplicity of "No sex until marriage" as a rule but that's also a merit...

[Rhyfelwyr]

But what make you think your way is better?

A mixture of gut feelings, scriptural interpretation, ignorance, and superstition.

That's just how I roll these days. :shrug:


Moral rules are generally supposed to be imposed. That's kind of the point.

Not necessarily, and certainly not through laws/the government. Freedom has moral value in its own right.

[PanzerJaeger]

I think a lot of it is learning by example. The vast majority of married couples I have encountered in my life have been profoundly unhappy, many of whom have eventually sought divorce and all the mess associated with it. That is not to say that happy marriages do not exist - we have a couple of examples here on the .org, if the limited window we have been allowed to view them through is at all accurate. Still, though, I am not particularly motivated to jump into a legally binding monogamous relationship after being exposed to years of bitter fighting, acrimony, and 'just trying to make it for the kid'.

Also, I think a lot of middle to upper class younger people are starting to view kids as an unwanted burden and responsibility and a hindrance to their career. As one of the main reasons for marriage is to legitimate bearing children with a partner, why bother if you are not going to have them? And from the other end of the spectrum, the shame of bearing children out of wedlock seems to have disappeared from the lower classes. Mothers having children from multiple fathers has become quite common. Add the two together, and you get a downward pressure on the institution.

Also, and I hate to be crass, the internet and changing sexual mores have not helped (if marriage is, in fact, deemed a social good instead of the constraint it often seems to become). I can spend twenty minutes online and find a suitable sexual partner for the night if that is what I want. You do not have to work for it anymore.

[naut]

Never heard of Hikikomori?

[classical_hero]

It's obvious, really. The Japanese have secretly perfected sex robots. :yes:
http://vimeo.com/12915013