A New Take on CFK vs. JHI

[FinalLegendZero]

*Warning, long post*

In my time lurking here, I've noticed that it is debated whether the best infantry unit is the Chivalric Foot Knight of the Janissary Heavy Infantry. This caused me to wonder, "What about Gothic Foot Knights?" After all, according to the unit guide, GFK's stats are superior or equal to those of CFK in every field, and still have an armor-piercing attack. So I decided to run a few custom battles that consisted of equal-valor, equal-upgrade GFK and CFK charging each other head-on.

As I predicted, the Gothic Foot Knights won every battle, with the most common final troop ratio being 10 Gothics routing 3 Chivalrics. So I decided to run another hypothetical scenario, this time a unit of GFK charging a unit of JHI (yes, I know this is unrealistic, and that a good strategist would tire out the GFK before charging its flank). The GFK did even better in this battle than against the CFK, with a common ratio of 20 to 1 in the Gothics' favor.

After this, I decided to see what would happen if a force of JHI and CFK really did collide head-on. The result...JHI win 26 to 2 (flawed calculation, see bottom of post for correction).

I was about to stop testing when I had another thought: "Varangian Guard's stats are comparable to the JHI's. Maybe they'd be a good contender?" I started this by running battles of Varangian Guard against CFK. Honestly, I didn't have much hope for the Varangians. I thought that the Varangians would be able to bring the CFK to around 15 men before routing with about 5 men left.

The Varangians won 37 to 6.

Needless to say, my jaw dropped. The Varangian Guard does better against CFK than Janissaries? It had to be a mistake. But all rounds had similar results. CFK just can't beat Varangian Guards with all things being equal.

Curious, I decided to pit the Varangians against some JHI. The Varangians won again, this time with a most common ratio of 22 to 2. Suddenly the JHI vs. CFK debate turned into a GFK vs. Varangian debate.

I couldn't just leave it there. One quick mod (removing the Varangian era restriction) later, I was set for one last testing round: Gothic Foot Knights versus the Varangian Guard, with the title of "Best Infantry of MTW" on the line.

When the dust cleared, the Varangians emerged triumphant with 20 men left. Not a single Gothic Foot Knight survived.

So if you were to ask me, "Who is better, CFK or JHI?", I'd respond "Moot point: GFK beat both, and the Varangian Guard beat all three". It's a shame that you can't train Varangians during the Late period.

EDIT: I recently realized that my CFK vs. JHI was flawed; I forced the CFK to charge the majority of the field. When forcing the JHI to march the distance, the battle turns to the CFK's favor with a ratio of 28 to 5.

[drone]

Welcome to the .Org, FinalLegendZero! ~:wave:

Quick look at the stats, these are my impressions:

Gothics are nice, the high defence and armour (6 each) help out their survivability. CFKs suffer due to their lower charge value (2 vs 4 for the others in the discussion), against Gothics/JHI this may be the difference. I'm guessing the 3 Defence/Armour of JHIs are the cause of their mismatch with the GFK, straight up Gothics will win but the JHI have much better maneuverability (and better desert performance).

Varangians versus either FK unit, probably caused by the unit size difference, against JHI I assume the defence discrepancy is the cause. If you want a true test, maybe up the size of the FK units to 60 to match the JHI/VG.

Both the JHI and CFK have the +3 attack/+1 defence polearm bonus against cav, which would not be shown in your scenarios. In a full battle, this bonus definitely adds to their usefulness.

60 GFK vs. 60 VG, that would be an interesting test. :yes:

[Gilrandir]

I decided to run a few custom battles that consisted of equal-valor, equal-upgrade GFK and CFK charging each other head-on.


When I started playing MTW and didn't have any access to the Unit Guide I also tried some one-unit-vs-one-unit custom battles to find out which was better. I started with some cavalry units but very soon quit. As it turned out several such battles may lead to different outcomes (with equal starting prerequisites), so I assumed that it is not possible to determine the relative strength of units without taking into account other factors (like who is attacking, the direction of attack, attacking up/downhill) which will ultimately rule in (or at least will influence much) campaign (or quick) battles.

[FinalLegendZero]

You have a good point about cavalry, drone. I'll run some tests to see how the units stack up against cavalry. To be thourough, I'll test light, medium, and heavy cavalry to see if different armor levels make a difference. And I'll definitely test the 60 GFK against 60 VG.

Gilrandir, I agree that there is some variance in the battles, all things being equal. But the results I'm posting isn't based on a single battle; for each scenario, I ran 5-10 separate battles, all on flat ground, and posted the most common result (which usually turned up in the majority of the tests).

[FinalLegendZero]

I've finished my calcs for Cavalry vs. the four units in question. Unfortunately, unlike the infantry vs. infantry battles (which were fairly uniform in result), most of the cavalry vs. infantry battles covered a wide range of results, so I can only provide common result ranges instead of a single, concrete scenario. Fortunately, for the most part the same side won each battle and the only variance was on how many men survived on each side.

First, though, as requested by drone, the results of 60 GFK against 60 VG. The result: GFK wins. The GFK usually had between 20 and 30 men left, while the VG routed somewhere between 5 and 10.

Now, onto the cavalry tests. As I stated in my last post, I tested against not just heavy cavalry, but light and medium cavalry as well. As for the specific cavalry units, I decided on Steppe Cavalry for light cavalry, Ghulam Cavalry for medium, and Lancers for heavy (if you want another cavalry unit tested, let me know).

First, the results for Steppe Cavalry. Of all the test batches, these matches had the most uniform results, and I can actually give solid ratios.

Steppe Cavalry vs. Varangian Guard: VG win, 42 to 8 ratio.

Steppe Cavalry vs. Gothic Foot Knights: GFK win, 35 to 9 ratio.

Steppe Cavalry vs. Chivalric Foot Knights: CFK win, Steppe General dead before even half the unit falls and 39 CFK surviving.

Steppe Cavalry vs. Janissary Heavy Infantry: JHI win, 58 to 18 ratio.

So, against light cavalry, GFK perform only slightly worse than CFK or JHI, while the Varangians lag behind.

Now, on to the Ghulam Cavalry:

Ghulam Cavalry vs. Varangian Guard: VG wins with 40-55 units left and the Ghulams routing at 6.

Ghulam Cavalry vs. Gothic Foot Knights: GFK in with 20-35 units left and the Ghulams usually routing at 8.

Ghulam Cavalry vs. Chivalric Foot Knights: CFK win with around 35 units left and the Ghulams routing between 10 and 20.

Ghulam Cavalry vs. Janissary Heavy Infantry: JHI win with 45 men left and the Ghulams routing between 5 and 15, unless the JHI kill their general first.

So against Ghulams, the GFK start to lag behind while the VG lead the pack.

The testing for Lancers was odd. For the above battles, the infantry won in every test, with the only variance being body count. Not so with the Lancers. The Lancers actually beat the other infantry at least 1/3 of the time, with the exception of the JHI which never lost a battle. Therefore, for these tests I'll give a ratio of how many battles the Lancers won, as well as ranges for both victory and defeat scenarios.

Lancers vs. Varangian Guard:
Lancer win/loss ratio: 2 to 4 (33%)
Lancer victory range: 20-30 Lancers, ~30 VG
Varangian Guard victory range: 20-30 VG, 1-2 Lancers

Lancers vs. Gothic Foot Knights:
Lancer win/loss ratio: 3 to 3 (50%)
Lancer victory range: 10-39 Lancers, 5-30 GFK (The GFK once lost ten men to the initial charge and routed instantly)
Gothic Foot Knight victory range: 10-30 GFK, no survivors

Lancers vs. Chivalric Foot Knights:
Lancer win/loss ratio: 3 to 6 (33%)
Lancer victory range: 25-30 Lancers, ~22 CFK
Chialric Foot Knight victory range: 20-30 CFK, 2-10 Lancers

Lancers vs. Janissary Heavy Infantry
Lancer win/loss ratio: 0 to 5 (0%)
Lancer victory range: Error 404 (victory not found)
Janissary Heavy Infantry victory range: 20-40 JHI, 1-7 Lancers

This leaves a rather oddly-formed, but predictable and clearly-defined, heirarchy of effectiveness against heavy cavalry: JHI>CFK>VG>GFK

In conclusion, polearm units do have an edge in combat against cavalry, but GFK and VG can still hold their own most of the time, and still have an edge against other infantry units. Maybe VG vs. GFK doesn't replace the CFK vs. JHI debate, but you shouldn't rule GFK and VG out of the running for best infantry entirely.

[drone]

With the cav v inf tests, how were the units controlled? Did the cav charge the infantry?

[FinalLegendZero]

Yes. I found that when I had the infantry charge, the AI would have the cavalry pull back at random intervals (probably planning another charge), but would be hit from behind by the pursuing infantry, so those results had to be discredited.

[drone]

If the cavalry are charging, then I would suggest replacing the cav units for the light and medium tests to match the 8 charge value of the Lancers. It would at least factor out some of the differences.

(stats are Charge/Attack/Defense/Armour/Morale)
Light Cavalry - Steppe Cav 6/2/1/3/0, Mounted Sergeants 8/2/2/3/2

Medium Cavalry - Ghulams 6/3/3/4/4, Polish Retainers 8/3/3/4/4, Armenian HC 8/3/3/4/4

The results with the Lancers is somewhat surprising. Lancers are awesome, so it's not that they won a lot, but that the JHI performed better than the CFK. Was this a 40 man CFK unit?

[FinalLegendZero]

Yes, it was 40 man. I'm trying to leave the units in their default size since they'd, at best, be in those conditions in an actual battle. I'll be back with calcs on Mounted Sergeants and Armenian HC.

[FinalLegendZero]

The new calcs are in! In some of these rounds, the cavalry general often died before a natural route. I'll note these occasions within their own case.

VG vs. MS: VG wins with 45-50 men routing 7-20 Sergeants

GFK vs. MS: GFK wins with 25-38 men routing 8-20 Sergeants

CFK vs. MS: CFK wins with 34-39 men routing 15-25 Sergeants

JHI vs. MS: JHI wins with 52-58 men left and the Sergeants routing at ~10 unless the general dies first.

VG vs. AHC: VG win, ~40 to 5 unless the cavalry general dies

GFK vs. AHC: GFK win with 25-35 men routing 3-11 cavalry

CFK vs. AHC: CFK win with 34-38 men routing 10-15 cavalry

JHI vs. AHC: JHI win with 45-55 men routing 7-15 cavalry unless the cavalry general dies first.

So the GFK and VG still aren't too far behind the CFK or JHI in cavalry-killing capabilities.

[drone]

So if I'm reading the results correctly:

Stats with the cav polearm bonus: JHI (4/8/4/3/8, 60 men), CFK (2/7/7/5/8, 40 men), VG (4/4/5/4/6, 60 men), GFK (4/5/6/6/8, 40 men)
Against cavalry, JHI > CFK (probably due to the unit size), CFK > VG (better defence/armour and polearm bonus overcomes unit size diff), and VG > GFK (no polearm bonus, better stats can't overcome unit size diff).


Results from head to head: VG (4/4/5/4/6, 60 men) > GFK (4/5/6/6/8, 40 men) > JHI (4/5/3/3/8, 60 men) > CFK (2/4/6/5/8, 40 men). Who charged who in the infantry v infantry tests?

[Gilrandir]

I may be mistaken, but it seems to me you miss an important thing - difficulty level. Again I may be wrong, but I believe that the same mini-battle would yield different results if you play on hard or expert as the AI gets a special bonus on these difficulties.

[FinalLegendZero]

You bring up a valid point, Gilrandir. I tested on Normal for these fights, since neither player nor AI gain any bonuses on that level.

In the infantry vs. infantry test, I had the less-armored fighter charge the more-armored, as that led to a more even fatigue comparison (when the more-armored unit charged, it would tire out by the time it reached its target and usually lost, even if it was statistically superior). It should be noted that the other unit always counter-charged as the charging unit when it got close, so both got their charge bonus.

And since I just realized that formation might play a role in battle outcome, I'll note here that I always made sure that both units had the same number of men on the front line.

[VersusAllOdds]

A long time ago, when I was still able to play battles in M:TW, I discovered a certain paper/rock/scissors infantry triangle. It's members were the Swiss Armoured Pikemen, Janissary Heavy Infantry and Gothic Foot Knights. Can't really remember who could beat who, but you can easily test it.

Did you not add the Swiss into the equation just because the faction isn't playable? I suggest you do.

[FinalLegendZero]

I'll run some calcs, but I have a hard time imagining a pike unit beating JHI, VG, GFK, or even CFK.

[drone]

I would imagine GFK/CFK might have trouble with Swiss Armoured Pikes due to the numbers. SAP are pretty good, but the small frontage due to the ranks hurts them. When an infantry unit wraps around them (like JHI will), I expect the SAP to start taking serious casualties. There might be a sweet spot setting up their formation where the SAP ranks aren't optimal for the pike bonus, but the increased frontage makes up for it.

[FinalLegendZero]

It seems I owe an apology to the SAP; assuming equal fronts, and given a full rank bonus, they beat all four of CFK, GFK, VG, and JHI, though all four win if they have superior fronts. Unfortunately, the numbers for the tests were too sporadic to give even ranges. At least, that's how it was for infantry; with my cavalry tests, even Lancers were considered lucky if they killed even one man of the SAP.

Unless someone can provide a mod that allows me to control two opposing forces simultaneously, I unfortunately cannot test for optimal SAP formation, as the AI always tends to keep the "standard" fronting with all units (at least, in my experience).

[drone]

You can change the unit prod file to change the AI's default rank setting, the SwissArmouredPikemen line has a column with: FORMATIONS_PREFERRED_NUM_ROWS( 5 ). You can change the number to spread the formation out some.

SAP are tough though. 4/2/5/4/6 base stats (charge/attack/defense/armour/morale, no AP though), becomes 4/4/11/4/6 against cavalry, and this is without the rank bonus. With a proper formation, you get 8/4/9/4/6 against infantry and 8/6/15/4/6 against cav (yes, 15 defense!). Properly supported/protected in battle, SAP do very nice work. :yes:

[Durango]

SAP are tough though. 4/2/5/4/6 base stats (charge/attack/defense/armour/morale, no AP though), becomes 4/4/11/4/6 against cavalry, and this is without the rank bonus. With a proper formation, you get 8/4/9/4/6 against infantry and 8/6/15/4/6 against cav (yes, 15 defense!). Properly supported/protected in battle, SAP do very nice work. :yes:

Still, they are themselves dominated by my own custom Spanish Heavy Pikemen - the ultimate defensive unit, and precursor to the feared Tercio formations of the 16th century. Slower than the Swiss units, but still...

BTW, in my home mod all late era pikes get +20% more men in the unit to enable proper use of their rank bonus. I think it only improves the game, and encourages the disuse of spears as was (somewhat) intended. But between CFKs and JHIs, I'd pick the Turkish "Jenicerli".