Battle valence of Celtic chariots [Archive]

Nightmare

12-20-2011, 08:34

Hello all,

I'm working on a Casse campaign, along with several others. At any rate, I've noticed that the chariots seem incredible delicate. A single arrow or javelin just grazes them, or the wind blows hard, and several just fall to pieces.

Fine though - I know javelins and what not counter them. But I've also noticed that in executing a charge, they pretty much just die. You are lucky to get any out alive and save your general. Yes, I'm talking a properly executed, actual charge. Yes, I'm talking in the flank or rear. No, I'm not talking about charging into a row of spears.

Anyone else notice any of this, or is it just me? If others say it's true, my question becomes what use are these chariots? Someone might say "throwing javelins," but my retort would be "no, I can just use javelin cavalry or javelin infantry for better effect at a cheaper price," so again, what's their use? They must provide some equal but different effect from a cavalry general of other factions or they wouldn't be in the game... right?

Thanks.

Titus Marcellus Scato

12-20-2011, 10:08

Chariots have two advantages:
1. Morale benefits. Assuming you're talking about a general's bodyguard, they boost the morale of nearby friendly units. And, more importantly, they frighten the enemy. Really frighten them, even more than heavy cavalry does.
2. Disruption to enemy formations. Drive chariots right through an enemy unit and out the other side, by double-clicking behind it. The enemy formation will be in a mess. Hit them immediately after with an infantry unit, and they'll take a lot of casualties, and they might even rout immediately.

Think of chariots as cheap, fast-moving but very fragile elephants, and you'll get the idea of how to use them in battle. The disruption and morale factors are more important than actual killing power.

If you want chariot charges to be truly effective, then you need to mass your chariots. I'm talking about having three or four family members in the same army, and charging all of them at the same section of the enemy line simultaneously. That will rout pretty much any enemy unit in seconds, and when one's routing, it becomes easier to rout others nearby since they become demoralised seeing their friends run away.

Remember that in the heyday of the chariot, the ancient times of the Egyptian and Hittite Empires, chariots were used en masse. At the Battle of Kadesh, there were not hundreds of chariots in each army, but thousands.

Blxz

12-20-2011, 11:26

Also note that chariots declined in usage due to the fact they probably aren't really as effective as cavalry. The casse use an out-dated style of fighting with old fashioned arms and armour (comparatively). Fun for roleplay and of course still useful in battle but not for the same uses as cavalry units.

Ludens

12-20-2011, 12:48

Yes, chariots were on the way out during EB's time-frame. They weren't quite useless though, as they could be used as missile platforms or battle-taxis for heavy infantry. The latter unfortunately can't be simulated in the R:TW engine.

I agree with Titus Marcellus Scato: the best way to use chariots is as budget elephants. Run them through enemy formations, and follow up with infantry. The disarray and the fear penalty will give you a big edge. You can also break enemy cavalry charges this way. Again, you need to follow up with other units, or because the chariots won't do will in a melee.

This is not the most realistic approach, but the original team felt they need chariots, and this at leasts represents their historical use somewhat (harassment and disrupting enemy formations, but not actual killing power) and allows the A.I. to get some use from them as well.

PelicanMan

12-20-2011, 15:08

Also remember that if you are confident in your troops holding up the line, use the chariots to kill off any cavalry units; for me, they seem to decimate all types of cavalry.

With the Chariots, even if you just ride along the backs of the enemy, they get really demoralized; if done correctly, grazing the units does huge amounts of morale damage and can even rout certain units instantaneously.

The best way to effectively use them though is to rush them through the enemy formations prior to charging your infantry; then reverse and charge their backs. Usually an instant rout if done correctly.

I am almost finished my Casse campaign!!! I have Christmas Eve at my house so there is not much time to play but after the holidays I should be able to finish off.

Good luck on your campaign!!!

THE P-MAN

Arjos

12-20-2011, 15:14

Cidainh are best used as anti-cav units and as fast mobile javelin platforms, just deploy them behind the enemy or at his flanks and you'll see the results...
Also it can work as the final charge in the rear of enemy infantry, when the latter is tired and low on morale...

Brave Brave Sir Robin

12-20-2011, 16:32

Yes use them as anti-cavalry units. As long as they don't absorb a charge head-on, they will massacre most cavalry, especially if it turns to run. And of course, keep them behind your lines until this use is apparent or if you can, run them up a side you may be flanking on. The combo of chariot fear and being flanked usually causes most light and medium infantry to immediately cut and run.

Brennus

12-20-2011, 17:47

Well done Pelican Man! You have managed to achieve what I have spent nearly 7 games trying to do, I take my helmet off to you!

On an historical note the Celtic chariot became popular from the 6th century BC till it began to be steadily abandoned in continental Europe from the 3rd century BC onward. With the decline of the Halstatt chiefdoms and their total or "pars pro toto" four wheeled wagon burials we begin to find two wheeled chariot burials situated in the Rhine and Marne regions as well as an isolated group of burials in Yorkshire in Britain. From the 3rd century BC onward the chariot appears to have declined as a weapon (although high status burials continue to include chariots until the 1st century BC). The battle of Telamon in 225BC is the last time we hear about Celtic armies using chariots for warfare.

The reasons for decline are likely a combination of factors. The ones which I would suggest were most important are the development of the "Celtic saddle" and the importation of larger Scythian and Nisean breeds of horses from Eastern Europe. The first of these, the Celtic saddle, was a major development in the history of cavalry. Until the development of the Celtic saddle riding horses was extremely difficult with only a few people, in particular the Numidians, managing to master riding without any means of securing the rider (it was not until the Dark Ages that stirrups were introduced to Europe, interestingly the Japanese also developed their own indigenous variant later). The Celtic saddle enabled a rider to stay seated on his horse and with sufficient support that he was able to charge with a lance and stay seated at the moment of impact.

From the 2nd century BC larger breeds of horses also began to imported from Asia and the Pontic Steppe. These horses were prized by their owners and we find many were buried with their ownders for service in the afterlife. The Eastern breeds were significantly larger than the Celtic breeds and this would have had two effects on western cavalry tactics. The first is that a larger horse is both faster (longer legs, more muscle, bigger heart etc) and heavier, thus making it far better for use in charges. The second is that if you attach two large horses to the front of a chariot it actually impedes your ability to drive as you can't see over the top of the horses unless you raise the chariot's platform which the Celts did not do.

These two factors appear to have to the rise in the equites class of Gauls which Caesar desribes in De Bello Gallico, proffesional cavalrymen riding individual horses as part of heavy cavarly units. The archaeological record also shows the rise of these men at the expense of chariot teams as we begin to find Celtic graves with heavy cavalry equipment included from the 3rd century BC onward. This equipment is usually in the form of longer slashing swords (something which would be of limited use in the javelin and spear dominated world of chariot warfare) and scabbards with flared chapes at their terminals to allow the rider to draw his sword whilst using his foot at a pivot (something totally pointless if your standing in a chariot).

Why did the chariot stay on in Britain then? Until the mid 2nd century BC most of Britain, with the exception of the south western peninsula, did not interact much with the continent. Although the Celtic saddle was introduced larger breeds were not. Evidence shows that rather than import larger breeds of horses or even domesticate horses the Britons preferred to break in wild ponies. These ponies were not larger enough to be used as heavy cavalry but were ideal for chariots. It is also likely that the chariot remained in service in Britain longer as Britain was not exposed to the professional armies of the Mediterranean until much later than the continental Celts. The continental Celts were exposed to the value of Hellenic heavy cavalry much earlier as a result of mercenary service but it was not until the mid 2nd century BC at the earliest that Britons, likely as hired Belgic troops, began to be exposed to this development in warfare. Thus the older ritualised form of warfare which the earlier Celts had practised continued for much longer in Britain and it is likely the chariot was well suited to the displays of personal prowess and personal duels that ritual warfare demanded.

Finally if you think the Britons were stubborn the Irish refused to adopt stirrups, Celtic or even modern saddles until the 16th Century.... and from the number of Anglo-Normans who died fighting Irish cavalry it doesn't seem to have been too much of a hinderance to the Irish warriors.

PelicanMan

12-20-2011, 18:49

Hey Brennus,
I actually got pretty lucky trying to figure it out. My general went around the line and I tried to charge the left flank. Since there was a skirmisher unit there that seemed to be exhausted of their javelins I took the chance to pass them and wrap around the flank. well, their javelins weren't exhausted; so I double clicked towards the other end of the line to escape the possibilities of a second volley.

I know that once one of your units engages an enemy unit, the rest of the unit thrusts themselves toward that unit for fighting; but what I did instead of just double clicking once to the other end of the line, I double clicked about a hundred times (in urgency of coarse) and I was able to clip several units on my way there and wow, what a mass route. The General almost engaged a couple of times and if it wasn't for the persistent double clicking, I would have been toast (with the javelins throwing at my back, I might as well paint a target on me to show them where the kill spots are).

Since then, I locate their light infantry and use that side to begin the mass route because those guys give up easily. I honestly have to say, if used correctly, they can be even deadlier than elephants.

THE P-MAN

Brennus

12-20-2011, 19:05

My problem wasn't tactical (an army of Belgic troops, in particular Minhalt can break any enemy line with a good charge) my problem has always been strategic; I never advance fast enough in Gaul before I end up facing stacks of Sweboz levies. Yes Sweboz levies are easy to beat but its still the same effect when they overrun your cities.

Was this your first EB campaign?

PelicanMan

12-20-2011, 19:25

Yes, this is my first EB campaign.

I particularly love the factions that are unique (e.g. Britons, Numidians, Iberians, etc.)

When I downloaded this mod, I overlooked the fact that Numidians were not a faction and that bummed me out, so I went with my next favorite faction Casse and started there.

I really like the building up type campaigns and this mod so far has been near perfect as to what I was looking for. The names of units sometimes are confusing, but it is what it is.

I always knew how to use Chariots correctly, but the whole nipping thing I figured out has made my battles a bit too easy of late. That is why I only have 1 General per unit and no chariot units, otherwise this mod would be no fun.

yeah, the Minhalt do some serious damage; and if you have a general who is basically a necromancer, well, there are not too many factions that could stop 1 stack of them (infantry vs infantry of coarse).

Once I finish this campaign, I think I will have to post a Poll as to which faction I should play next. I definitely will not play as the Romans; looks wayyyy to easy.

let me know what you think.

THE P-MAN

Brennus

12-20-2011, 20:12

Have sent you a PM so I don't end up clogging this thread with unrelated stuff.

Nightmare

12-22-2011, 10:49

Ludens

12-22-2011, 11:48

:shrug: They are big, cumbersome targets. If you change the stats to make chariots arrows-resistant, they become overpowered in melee. If you make them fragile in melee, they'll also be arrow-fodder. There's no way to balance this.

I hate those rapid-fire towers anyway. It's fair that the defenders get extra firepower, but these towers manage to be both overpowered and hopeless. They've got amazing accuracy and firepower; but the attacker can capture them and then they'll rip into defending units stationed behind them. They'll also happily shoot your own men in the back during a melee.

Nightmare

12-22-2011, 12:24

:shrug: They are big, cumbersome targets. If you change the stats to make chariots arrows-resistant, they become overpowered in melee. If you make them fragile in melee, they'll also be arrow-fodder. There's no way to balance this.

They seem to suck in melee as it is. So how would making them more resistant to arrows make them OP in melee?

Surely there has to be some middle ground between being absolutely murdered by ranged stuff, and being resistant to ranged and OP.

Titus Marcellus Scato

12-22-2011, 13:09

Wow, was playing the Casse campaign again today. I was sieging a Gaul city. Was bashing the door in and had dudes climbing ladders. He sent swordsmen to confront my dudes on the walls, and my generals were just sitting there. I decided to try to put them to some use, and since his guys didn't have javelins at the time I sent my generals next to the wall so they could throw some javelins. Well, the arrow tower started shooting my generals. I recognized it instantly and double-clicked to pull them back. One general went from 24 men down to 6, the other went from 16 men to 10 before I could get them out of range of the towers.

Look, have the counter be arrows and javelins for all I care, but the counter is too hard. There is no reason for the counter to be that strong. The dudes have armor for Christ's sake, and they are standing on wooden contraptions with wheels. Unless someone tells me how this can be accurate, I'm looking at it as an oversight from the balance team, or an engine bug. It makes the game not fun to have armored generals standing on chariots collapse to the ground in seconds just because a few arrows graze them. Every time it happens I just load a different campaign up, because like I said, not fun. Not difficult by any means - I'm slaughtering on all my campaigns, including Casse - just not fun.

Sorry, but although the warriors standing in the chariot have armour, the ponies pulling the chariot don't - and unfortunately the game engine doesn't allow the warriors to get out and fight on foot when the ponies are killed they way they did historically.

Yes the game engine is limited, and yes, the towers are overpowered (to make up for the stupid AI not putting enough units on the walls) but that doesn't change the fact that you made a stupid mistake moving the chariots within range of the enemy-held towers, and quite rightly paid a heavy price for it. Well, now you've learned your lesson - chariots are absolutely, totally useless for assaulting cities. The Casse general should just stand on a hill and watch the show, and then triumphantly drive into the captured city to celebrate as the last defenders get slaughtered in the town square.

Nightmare

12-22-2011, 15:42

Sorry, but although the warriors standing in the chariot have armour, the ponies pulling the chariot don't - and unfortunately the game engine doesn't allow the warriors to get out and fight on foot when the ponies are killed they way they did historically.

Then the ponies holding a man up (cavalry) can get killed just as easily... except that they don't.

Well, now you've learned your lesson - chariots are absolutely, totally useless for assaulting cities.

Sure, it's now obvious that they are totally useless for "assaulting cities" (didn't know that trying to kill a few guys standing on a wall constituted "assaulting a city" but maybe that's just me). But your stating what was made obvious adds nothing to the conversation. The question is "why are they so useless 'assaulting cities'?" and "should they be so useless 'assaulting cities'?" Stated another way, should they be so hard-countered by a few arrows or javelins?

I'm not gonna sit here and argue it, it's not worth it. If you guys think this is a good model, and you seem to feel nothing wrong inside you when an arrow grazes your chariots and a few of them collapse - fine, I won't quibble with it. Something inside me screams "this ain't right," but again I'm prepared to move on and not argue about it either way.

Brave Brave Sir Robin

12-22-2011, 16:18

Then the ponies holding a man up (cavalry) can get killed just as easily... except that they don't.

Sure, it's now obvious that they are totally useless for "assaulting cities" (didn't know that trying to kill a few guys standing on a wall constituted "assaulting a city" but maybe that's just me). But your stating what was made obvious adds nothing to the conversation. The question is "why are they so useless 'assaulting cities'?" and "should they be so useless 'assaulting cities'?" Stated another way, should they be so hard-countered by a few arrows or javelins?

I'm not gonna sit here and argue it, it's not worth it. If you guys think this is a good model, and you seem to feel nothing wrong inside you when an arrow grazes your chariots and a few of them collapse - fine, I won't quibble with it. Something inside me screams "this ain't right," but again I'm prepared to move on and not argue about it either way.

I'm pretty sure you are exaggerating your claim in any event. The towers do fire accurately, but each chariot has multiple HP and from what you say, losing about 20 chariots would still take 45 seconds to a minute at the least. Expose any unit that is not armored to missiles that long and that will be the result. The fact is that due to engine bugs, chariots absolutely murder enemy cavalry. So they have to be glass cannons or else you have vanilla chariots which were crazily OP'd.

Also worth noting, those Casse chariot drivers really aren't armored very well. A helmet is about all they get.

antisocialmunky

12-22-2011, 17:06

Gaesatae hold up pretty well with nothing but a helmet. Just make them drive the chariot in a blood rage.

Titus Marcellus Scato

12-22-2011, 17:24

Then the ponies holding a man up (cavalry) can get killed just as easily... except that they don't.

Sure, it's now obvious that they are totally useless for "assaulting cities" (didn't know that trying to kill a few guys standing on a wall constituted "assaulting a city" but maybe that's just me). But your stating what was made obvious adds nothing to the conversation. The question is "why are they so useless 'assaulting cities'?" and "should they be so useless 'assaulting cities'?" Stated another way, should they be so hard-countered by a few arrows or javelins?

A cavalryman on a horse - that's one vulnerable horse. Two horses pulling a chariot - that's two vulnerable horses. And to stop a chariot in its tracks, you only need to kill ONE of the two horses, not both. The remaining horse is immobilised by the dead weight of its partner still attached to the chariot. So a chariot is twice as vulnerable to missiles as a cavalryman - the target is twice the size. Twice as easy to kill. Will die twice as fast. This is why chariots became outdated.

Moving a unit within missile range of a city counts as assaulting it. Chariots (any cavalry, actually) should not go within missile range of the wall until the wall and towers have been secured by infantry.

Ca Putt

12-22-2011, 17:25

Yes the game engine is limited, and yes, the towers are overpowered (to make up for the stupid AI not putting enough units on the walls) but that doesn't change the fact that you made a stupid mistake moving the chariots within range of the enemy-held towers, and quite rightly paid a heavy price for it. Well, now you've learned your lesson - chariots are absolutely, totally useless for assaulting cities. The Casse general should just stand on a hill and watch the show, and then triumphantly drive into the captured city to celebrate as the last defenders get slaughtered in the town square. where can I sign?

Then the ponies holding a man up (cavalry) can get killed just as easily... except that they don't.I think you experienced they do get killed somewhat easy aswell ;)
On the other hand A single horse with a rider is a much smaller target than two horses tied together. Some Cavalry units are actually armored aswell. If you get your cavalry hit by a voley of bullets/arrows javelins they will lose some men aswell. Chariot units are generally smaller than Cavalry units, thus if a voley kills 20 men the cavalry unit is scratches the Chariot unit is critically wounded.

Sure, it's now obvious that they are totally useless for "assaulting cities" (didn't know that trying to kill a few guys standing on a wall constituted "assaulting a city" but maybe that's just me). But your stating what was made obvious adds nothing to the conversation. The question is "why are they so useless 'assaulting cities'?" and "should they be so useless 'assaulting cities'?" Stated another way, should they be so hard-countered by a few arrows or javelins?Offcourse they are useless at assauling a city. Honestly, if you try to kill guys ontop of a wall?
1) you run in and kill them with swords and axes.(using ladders, siege towers or the staircase)
2) you get siege equipment aka catapults and hurl huge rocks(or dead things) at them
2.1) destroy the walls by other means
3) you get archers that are better than the ones on top of the wall and let them kill them
3.1) you get archers that fire at them from behind wooden shields
3.2) you get archers that fire at them from behind a lare group of cannon fodder
4) you order your horse archers to circle around the town for a week and constantly shoot arrows at them while they are fast enough to dodge most arrows.
5) you sit it out, they will come out eventually

What you DO NOT do:
1) let your nobles go into range and expose their hiny to the defenders.
2) Charge at them with your cavalry
3) Hide in the doorway just under those strange pipes, wait a second AAAAAHHAAGHGGH
4) Personally park your chariot Infront of the wall and try to toss a javelin up the wall.

ALL (abstract) cavalry units draw a lot of strengh from their speed. Some so they can avoid fighting Spearmen, some so they can charge into groups of enemies with their pointy sticks. Most actually need both to pay off. When assaulting a settlement(yeah even those without walls) They CANNOT charge properly and the "narrow"(btw I just noticed how awfully wide the strets in even the tiniest settlements are) korridors impede their movement further. Chariots may not have lances they could charge with but they are most efficient when moving all the time running down enemies and avoiding retaliation. They however also need even more space to manover than single horsies and thus are even more impeded by buildings etc.

I have to say that I actually can't properly use chariots in EB. But I know they are really powerfull if used correctly and with really powerfull I mean close to elephants. So yeah I think their fragileness is called for. It would be better If it'd be possible to let the warriors jump off to fight as infantry but that's nothing the engine allows :(

Gaesatae hold up pretty well with nothing but a helmet. Just make them drive the chariot in a blood rage. AN ELEPHANT CHARIOT!!!!

OH and don't get us wrong, I think most of us actually enjoy these arguments, so argue as much as you like :)

PelicanMan

12-22-2011, 18:24

I decided to try to put them to some use, and since his guys didn't have javelins at the time I sent my generals next to the wall so they could throw some javelins. Well, the arrow tower started shooting my generals. I recognized it instantly and double-clicked to pull them back. One general went from 24 men down to 6, the other went from 16 men to 10 before I could get them out of range of the towers.

Why you put your general in front of a tower is beyond me.
I understand if you are attacking wooden walls and in between two towers just to toss some javelins and cause fear to the enemy units, but putting them in front of a stone wall is like shooting fish in a barrel for those towers.

THE P-MAN

edit:
They just have to be used correctly to get the full use out of them.
plus, with all their attributes, I think the Chariots seem to be a bit overpowered; If a unit can annihilate any cavalry unit and cause large amounts of fear AND in the generals case, boost moral for the stack, then damn... that unit is quite amazing. Can't forget that they also toss javelins as they attack. Other than elephants, no other unit can rout an enemy as fast as they can.

Those are my two cents.

Brennus

12-22-2011, 18:55

This is why chariots became outdated.

I wouldn't say so...

Brave Brave Sir Robin

12-22-2011, 19:32

I'd say the chariot became outdated for separate reasons in the east and among the Celts. In the east, the rise of cavalry and horse archers helped bring chariot warfare down while among the Celts I can think of two reasons.
1. Larger horses were introduced that made for good cavalry.
2. As Celtic warfare moved beyond tribal conflicts and raids and into the realm of dealing with the might of Rome or similarly large entities, the usefulness of battle taxis would decrease. Moving 50 nobles to one point in the battle might be useful if there are only 1,000 men fighting, but when the numbers are 10 or 20x that, small numbers of nobles moving to and fro wouldn't make quite as much of a difference anymore. Note: This is just an assumption by me. I'm not drawing this from any historians but it seems to make sense when we consider how Celtic warfare evolved.

Titus Marcellus Scato

12-22-2011, 21:31

The chariot is a very frightening weapon to have to face, and it was very good against untrained peasants with poor morale and no discipline who would panic and rout when chariots attacked them. It's a terror weapon, reliant on fear effect to the enemy. In the Bronze Age, most 'foot troops' really were untrained peasants with no discipline, or else they were slingers and archers who couldn't cope with hand to hand combat against anything.

Against trained or experienced spearmen disciplined and brave enough to withstand the charge with spears at the ready and fight back as the vehicles charge into their midst, the chariot isn't so good, except as a taxi service or a missile platform against enemies lacking missiles of their own.

Nightmare

12-22-2011, 22:29

[Removed], my men had taken the tower. Later in the engagement, enemy men took it back and my chariots started taking shots. But either way, for the last time IT'S IRRELEVANT. THE POINT ISN'T ASSAULTING CITIES. THE POINT ISN'T ARROW TOWERS AND PLACING GENERALS IN RANGE OF THEM. THE POINT IS THE HYPER-VULNERABILITY OF CHARIOTS TO RANGED.

In general, I think hard counters are bad game design. Soft counters are fine, hard counters degenerate games to rock-paper-scissors and absurdities like chariots falling apart because an arrow flies by.

I'm pretty sure you are exaggerating your claim in any event. The towers do fire accurately, but each chariot has multiple HP and from what you say, losing about 20 chariots would still take 45 seconds to a minute at the least.

Start a Casse campaign and try it yourself. Sooner or later you will see how ridiculously delicate these stupid things are.

Titus Marcellus Scato

12-22-2011, 22:55

my men had taken the tower. Later in the engagement, enemy men took it back and my chariots started taking shots.

That wasn't clear from your earlier post, sorry. I apologise for annoying you with my posts, and will place you on my Ignore list so I don't reply to you and annoy you further. May I suggest you add me to your ignore list too.

PelicanMan

12-22-2011, 22:55

Wow, was playing the Casse campaign again today. I was sieging a Gaul city. Was bashing the door in and had dudes climbing ladders. He sent swordsmen to confront my dudes on the walls, and my generals were just sitting there. I decided to try to put them to some use, and since his guys didn't have javelins at the time I sent my generals next to the wall so they could throw some javelins. Well, the arrow tower started shooting my generals. I recognized it instantly and double-clicked to pull them back. One general went from 24 men down to 6, the other went from 16 men to 10 before I could get them out of range of the towers.

So here you state that you sent your chariots in to help out your units fighting on the walls.

my men had taken the tower. Later in the engagement, enemy men took it back and my chariots started taking shots. But either way, for the last time IT'S IRRELEVANT.

well, if you would have stated that earlier, you would probably not have gotten burned by everybody.

Second, you have no right to call people Idiots here; they took your information and dissected it correctly. So please be specific next time.

Third - IF you used chariots the way they are supposed to be used, then you wouldn't be having these complaints. If you throw them in and they stop moving, THEY WILL DIE. you kill one horse, the unit dies. COMPREHENDE??? Of coarse they are vulnerable to arrow fodder and javelings - they are HUGE TARGETS.

Anyways, once again, do not call people here idiots. Read your original post 1 more time and understand why people reacted the way they did.

THE P-MAN

Arjos

12-22-2011, 22:57

The point is the hyper-vulnerability of chariots to ranged.

You mean that a huge light wooden frame, with two wheels, going recklessly fast, with no safety or protective features whatsoever, shouldn't be affected in any way, by deadly weapons designed to kill at a distance?

I mean I don't do it, but I can take down a car with a rock...

Brennus

12-22-2011, 23:13

Lol. This thread is becoming as heated as the Roman senate in the days of Sulla and Marius.

athanaric

12-22-2011, 23:54

In general, I think hard counters are bad game design. Soft counters are fine, hard counters degenerate games to rock-paper-scissors and absurdities like chariots falling apart because an arrow flies by.EB already did away with some hard counters from RTW vanilla, however some things are just hardcoded. Engine limitations and/or idiosyncrasies account for most annoying situation in this game.

Start a Casse campaign and try it yourself. Sooner or later you will see how ridiculously delicate these stupid things are.
Actual arrows aren't that much of a problem, unless they come in really thick hails. It's those bolts from the towers, because they've got far better stats than comon arrows. Apparently they represent snipers with katapeltai/scorpions (which in real life would be very dangerous for chariots). However tower and siege tower fire rate is somewhat overdone. You can mod the relevant files yourself to decrease their power. Should be savegame compatible.

Generally it's a bad idea to try and lob stuff up a stone wall though. Most of the time you won't kill anything. However it can be beneficial (for the morale boni and penalties they grant) to move your chariots/elephants in front of a wall, IF you make sure there are no towers or idle enemy missile troops nearby.

Jormungand

12-22-2011, 23:55

[Removed]

You seem to have a pretty condescending air about you. Regardless of whether you agree, disagree or have an issue with someone's thoughts or ideas, you don't have to insult them in order to emphasize your own points.

IT'S IRRELEVANT. THE POINT ISN'T ASSAULTING CITIES. THE POINT ISN'T ARROW TOWERS AND PLACING GENERALS IN RANGE OF THEM. THE POINT IS THE HYPER-VULNERABILITY OF CHARIOTS TO RANGED.

Mate, did you have a bad day or something? Calm down, it's just a game...

Brave Brave Sir Robin

12-23-2011, 06:17

Start a Casse campaign and try it yourself. Sooner or later you will see how ridiculously delicate these stupid things are.

1. I have played a Casse campaign before. I understand the role they play as general's bodyguards, their limitations and uses. They are delicate and I never argued that they were not. In fact I mentioned them being glass cannons.
2. I don't need to start up another Casse campaign because I regularly play EB multiplayer. In fact, in the July tournament I managed victory using the Aedui and many of my army compositions involved chariots. Therefore, I know very well how they are countered and how to avoid such situations. They are weak against missiles, cavalry charges and infantry melees. They are incredibly strong against cavalry which is not charging and also work well at causing fear.

Nightmare

12-23-2011, 08:41

...and will place you on my Ignore list so I don't reply to you and annoy you further. May I suggest you add me to your ignore list too.

Done.

well, if you would have stated that earlier, you would probably not have gotten burned by everybody.

My life's history didn't need to be spelled out. It wasn't the point. Whether I purposefully stuck the chariot in front of an arrow tower, whether I did it on accident, or whether some cavalry archer unit snuck up on me and hit me with some arrows, the specific circumstances don't matter. Only the point matters, the rest is just fluff. The point is whether or not chariots should be so vulnerable to ranged from a balance perspective. As of right now I'm in the "no" camp and haven't seen an argument to persuade me otherwise. Most of you seem to be in the "yes" camp and haven't been persuaded either. That's fine.

EB already did away with some hard counters from RTW vanilla, however some things are just hardcoded. Engine limitations and/or idiosyncrasies account for most annoying situation in this game.

Gotcha. Sounds like they were on the right track then.

Actual arrows aren't that much of a problem, unless they come in really thick hails. It's those bolts from the towers, because they've got far better stats than comon arrows. Apparently they represent snipers with katapeltai/scorpions (which in real life would be very dangerous for chariots).

Yup, agree about scorpions, and wouldn't complain if one nailed my chariot and bad things happened. I do have bad luck with pretty much anything that grazes my chariots though, whether it's an arrow, a javelin, a rock, a scorpion - whatever.

I can live with it. Worse comes to worse I can just never use my chariots in battle ever, or not even play Casse if it comes to it. I just thought I'd voice my concern and see if anyone else concurred.

Nightmare

12-23-2011, 10:38

Mate, did you have a bad day or something? Calm down, it's just a game...

TOO MUCH COFFEE! CAUSES VIOLENT MOOD SWINGS!

Ludens

12-23-2011, 11:13

I've edited out the abuse. Thanks everyone for keeping cool.
:bow:

Nightmare

12-23-2011, 16:07

Tried what everyone said. I had a big battle with the gauls, outside on open ground. I had a big line of spearmen meet all of his infantry and they all clashed in a perfect line. I had my chariots on his flank, and lined them up perfectly with his line of infantry. He was stuck, there was nothing he could do. I did not double click on any of his infantry, I double clicked past the other side of the flank, expecting my chariots to crash through his line to the other side causing massive havok just like everyone said. Instead, the chariots didn't charge through anything, they just stuck right on his flank - stuck hard. I double clicked through the line many times but they wouldn't budge. Then I just double clicked away many times over and over, just to get out, because I was taking massive damage. They were stuck, wouldn't get out. Then I lost my general.

If you guys get that to work, there must be some trick you haven't told me, because that was just massive failure :-(

Arjos

12-23-2011, 16:21

If you want the Cidainh to disrupt whole lines, you'll have to click each and every single enemy unit as you go by, so that your chariots will keep on "charging"...
But that's not the best way to use them, you need to get rid of enemy cavalry (if there's any), then get behind the enemy infantry (possibly the one who's winning against yours) and shoot javelins...
Their charge is to be used as a last resource, when the enemy is well tired...

Nightmare

12-23-2011, 18:19

Arjos

12-23-2011, 18:22

It's clicking the next unit as you go by, so in a way it's clicking behind it; but as you tested running to a point (instead of targeting the next one) behind a unit, will only end up with your chariots getting stuck as they make contact...

The Celtic Viking

12-23-2011, 18:29

Use them with close support from your Uirodusios and Druids and the enemy will run like sissies. They become so OP it's not even funny.

jirisys

12-23-2011, 23:50

Lol. This thread is becoming as heated as the Roman senate in the days of Sulla and Marius.

Imagine them debating why their celtic chariots are too underpowered to enemy javelins.

And threatening to kill each other, of course. But that's irrelevant.

~Jirisys ()

Nightmare

12-24-2011, 15:12

Ca Putt

12-24-2011, 19:39

ooo, ougtta try that myself :D

Cute Wolf

12-27-2011, 07:42

:shrug: They are big, cumbersome targets. If you change the stats to make chariots arrows-resistant, they become overpowered in melee. If you make them fragile in melee, they'll also be arrow-fodder. There's no way to balance this.

actually, missile chariots cannot really fight in melee, their melee attack is pretty much limited to the passive "chariot blades" secondary entry in the EDU, compared to vanilla sword-armed chariot (with no missiles) who pretty much hack everything in melee (with their melee primary)

raising their armour rating (no not for the first def entry (that's the drivers) - I mean the second for Chariots), did make them less killable in melee, but once they bogged down, they will end up killed anyway (only sightly longer).

Ludens

12-27-2011, 11:46

Yes, they're huge targets, so once the chariots bog down there will be enemies hacking at them from multiple directions. There's no way to balance that unless you increase their armour to the point they are nigh-unkillable.

seleucid empire

01-06-2012, 22:21

Okay, used my chariots on some enemy cavalry. They did slaughter the enemy cavalry. Also, tried the trick with double-clicking from one enemy unit to the next once the chariot hits the enemy line. That sorta-kinda worked... more or less.

Finally, I noticed the chariots have a lot of stamina. You can use and abuse them and they stay somewhat fresh.

finally your starting to see how good they are. seriously for me they are even more powerful than elephants
1. they dont run amok
2. have a ridiculous amount of javelins
3. and ive never actually managed to rout an entire army using elephants flank attack without disrupting my own lines. elephants just dont walk straight like chariots
4. elephants dont help you win a battle when the enemy has twice your strength like chariots can

also nightmare i think you complain too much. this is your second post where your complaining about chariots. so many people here have just posted and told you how to use them and you still seem to let them die. I also remember reading a post where you complained that numidian units are too strong. You do realize they are supposed to be the best light cavalry in the western ancient world??? and also the town you were attacking sounds like kirtan which is built on top of a massive hill. your heavy cavalry will tire and also they can rain javelins down on you from above. and numdian cavalry and infantry both have spears as secondary which means the skirmishers can hold the line and the cavalry has a decent charge. if i hear you start complaining about spartans or german bodyguards i will actually treat you as a noob

Nightmare

01-07-2012, 10:12

finally your starting to see how good they are. seriously for me they are even more powerful than elephants

No, they really, really suck - the worst units I've ever seen in any game. I was just trying to be as balanced as I could, and throw any positives I found into the discussion.

also nightmare i think you complain too much. this is your second post where your complaining about chariots.

Put me on your ignore list, so you don't have to read my "complaining," and so you don't have to respond.

But before you do that, for the record, I don't "complain." I post my thoughts on balance.

I also remember reading a post where you complained that numidian units are too strong. You do realize they are supposed to be the best light cavalry in the western ancient world???

Get your facts straight. I believe my complaint was that the numidian light foot skirmisher units, with loincloths and sandals, standing in a loose formation, were too strong and murdered my elite heavy cavalry after my cavalry charged into them. I received two responses from two groups. The first group seemed to be the more knowledgeable group. They said there was a bug in the game engine. The second group just went on and on about how mostly naked, cheap, easily massable dudes in loinclothes standing in loose formation were SUPPOSED to murder elite heavy cavalry. I went with the explanation from the first group.

As to your comments on the "best light cavalry in the world," I didn't know that light cavalry of any sort was supposed to murder elite heavy cavalry - thanks for fixing that for me.

...and numdian cavalry and infantry both have spears as secondary which means the skirmishers can hold the line and the cavalry has a decent charge.

Then it would be nice if the spears were shown in the unit descriptions for the infantry. I think it's unreasonable to expect the player to dig through config files to find out that information, and I think it's unreasonable to beat the player up in a forum if he doesn't do that.

if i hear you start complaining about spartans or german bodyguards i will actually treat you as a noob

I think we'd all just prefer that you put me in your ignore list, which is what I'm going to do with you - thanks.

seleucid empire

01-07-2012, 10:50

I don't care if you put me on your ignore list ( which is what you seem to do whoever anyone doesnt see things your way) but im just putting this out there
1. You are complaining, call it "posting my thoughts" if you want
2. skirmishers murdered your all cavalry elite units because they have spears and are infantry and have 200 men in the unit. they are more like celtic spearmen than skirmishers. i think they may actually be better at holding the line. and they dont tire as easily as heavy cavalry
3. Light cavalry can beat heavy cavalry in some circumstances especially if your tiring your heavy cavalry by charging and pulling out. even though this is the right tactic it doesnt work when your facing an army of numdian cavalry which chases down your sacred band as soon as you turn them around. And also you do realize historically hannibal used numdian cavalry at cannae and they held back large numbers of Elite Italian allied cavalry
4. They dont need to to tell you in unit cards, you could have used your eyes and see that when you charge them they are holding spears not knives

seleucid empire

01-07-2012, 10:53

and also i have seen people post threads about chariots complaining about their nature but ive never ever seen anyone label them as the worst unit in the game. they are more versatile than elephants and can rout an army of barbarian elites with a single charge. no other unit can really do that

jirisys

01-07-2012, 11:40

I, For one, consider that a javelin to a horse will most likely kill the horse. Rendering the chariot useless for battle. Chariots are fragile things, considering if you lose a horse, the chariot might trample over it and flip over. But you can also trample light units without breaking a sweat.

And frankly, there's a reason why chariots' role is a cavalry mangler first, infantry disruptor second.

Cavalry is much more fragile in the bottom, it can't really defend itself from a wooden plank breaking the horses' legs, but infantry can stop the horses by sheer numbers and kill them easily.

Besides, with nifty morale boosts you can do an inverse gaugamela or simply march back and forth the main line chopping down the rear ranks.

The more you know.

~Jirisys ()

seleucid empire

01-07-2012, 12:05

blitz briton with your starting casse army with 4 units of cheap infantry and 2 chariots against a nearly fullstack of professional and midlander champions. you will have 5 cities by turn 7 and out of debt by turn 3. Thats how good chariots are

Ludens

01-07-2012, 12:10

The points have been made, guys. I don't see this discussion going any further. Let's move on.

seleucid empire

01-07-2012, 12:20

oh just one more point, chariots have the best recovery rate in the game (the unit ones not the bodyguards). Even scythed chariots i have found useful in their strange ways. I charged a single unit of cavalry with sychted and they ran amok straight away =.=. However they started running amok int he enemies line and by the time they reached my line they were a complete mess. I had about 6 chariots left and when the battle was over i found the full unit of 40 untouched

PelicanMan

01-07-2012, 13:45

seleucid empire

01-07-2012, 14:04

Hey Seleucid,
If I understand what you are saying, then you must have used your chariots to engage first before any other unit. If your General has healing traits, then the bug in the game is that the first unit that engages usually recovers the most soldiers and then the second unit that engages recovers roughly half the casualties, then the third not as much, and so on and so forth.

Let me know if that was the case.

THE P-MAN

I not too sure, i didnt see any healing traits or anything in his retinue and yes i did use it to clear his left flank of cavalry before charging my own cav. But then i saw it run amok and held my cavalry back. For some reason chariots always recover for me. I remember this massive defeat against germans with casse. I had a unit of non bodyguard chariots and even though it was a crushing defeat i had like half of my chariots left over even though here were only 10 men left when i ended the battle