Elite Dacian skirmishers... overpriced??? [Archive]

Nightmare

01-18-2012, 11:13

So I was toying with a Getai campaign. Upgraded a barracks in one of my cities and saw that I could train these dudes (Komatai Epilektoi). Then I saw the price tag and maintenance cost on them and promptly sprayed coffee all over my monitor :-(

Recruitment cost (normal unit sizes) is 2968, upkeep is 742, and you only get 30 guys. By way of comparison, a triarii is 1623/406, you get 40 of them, the stats are better, plus they are available earlier. Also, I used my general to compare with any mercenaries in my area. Elite german swordsmen (forgot the name of them, but recruitable right next to my starting city) are cheaper, plus I think you get more soldiers and better stats.

I wondered if there was something else this skirmisher had (armor piercing ability or something), but nothing showed up on any unit description. Then I tried to put a unit of these skirmishers against various other less-costly but superior-stat infantry in a custom battle to see what would happen. Unfortunately, not only did the elite skirmishers not show up on the unit selection screen, neither did many other units I wanted to put against them.

So what's up with these guys? Anyone know the skinny? Hidden stats that make these dudes worth the price? Something? Anything?

For what it's worth, this Getai campaign looks to be the shortest campaign ever.

athanaric

01-18-2012, 13:02

If you're referring to Xerunoudozez, they aren't elite. Still pretty tough though. As for the Dacian guys, they have .225 lethality swords, which is equal to the better swordsmen you'll see in this game (like the aforementioned Germanic dudes). Also good morale and stamina, decent armour and a bunch of javelins.

Ca Putt

01-18-2012, 13:28

check this out : http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?mp=unit&unit=dacian skirmisher komatai epilektoi&text=Epi&ownership=dacia&class=any&category=any

Well they are somewhat overpriced(as many elites) but they are really neat, Kill a lot and 16 morale also helps. I would not spam them but havin 1-2 in a larger army is a good idea.

btw to fight costom battles you need to start EB via the Multiplayer exe. The singleplayer version has all the Regional units included which fill up all lines and don't leave room for many factional units. For example most factions get the Indian Guild warrior aswell as scordici which is quite off ;) With the Multiplayer version you get all factional troops and a few appropriate regional troops(troops which live within the Area of influence of the faction)

Ludens

01-18-2012, 13:31

I can't comment on the unit, but if you want to test them in custom battle, you need to use a different export_descr_unit.txt (EDU) file. The problem is that the custom-battle unit-selection screen displays every unit that a faction can recruit. However, the number of regional units in EB is greater than the capacity of the selection screen. To get round this, the EB team created a second EDU file for custom & MP battles only. If you use the Trivial Script to start EB, the EDU will be swapped automatically on start-up. If you do not use the Trivial Script, you need to replace the EDU file in "\Rome - Total War\EB\Data\" with that from "\EB\mp custom game edu\" - folder. Remember to switch it back to the old version (which can be found in "\EB\sp campaign game edu\") if you want to continue your single-player campaign.

Titus Marcellus Scato

01-18-2012, 14:35

The ordinary Komatai have a -2 mount effect against horses (meaning they are less effective against cavalry). The elite ones don't have that handicap.

So if you're short of cavalry compared to the enemy (e.g. maybe you're fighting the Sauromatae), and you really need a flanking Komatai unit that won't take enormous casualties and rout if they happen to get hit by an enemy heavy cavalry charge, then the elite version might be worth it. They've also got better armour, so would be less vulnerable to showers of arrows from horse archers, which will devastate the ordinary Komatai. The elites would also be better at storming defended walls.

Nightmare

01-18-2012, 21:04

Cadwalader

01-18-2012, 21:18

If you have the money, why not just recruit them? Nevermind the logic behind it. That's just part of the fun.

Nightmare

01-18-2012, 21:36

I just put them against triarii in a custom battle. Triarii won handily.

I've suspected this for a while, but haven't said anything. Now I'll say it. Game units need to be rebalanced in terms of stats/cost. I strongly urge the people who created this mod to look into the issue. A starting point might be looking at upper-tier and elite units.

Thanks.

athanaric

01-18-2012, 21:47

Most players are just fine with the current system. Also, did you notice that Spartans have unusually high stamina and higher morale than Triarii? They're much more versatile.

seleucid empire

01-18-2012, 22:46

dont spartans have a better charge than triarii?? they are counted as heavy infantry rather than spearmen

bobbin

01-18-2012, 23:10

I just opened my KH campaign and a unit of spartan hoplites is 2785/774. Are these dudes anything approaching spartan hoplites? They are around the same price (actually, the skirmishers are more), but a spartan hoplite is supposed to be a true elite - an "elite of the elite." And I don't even build those.
Its relative, the Komatai Epilektoi are an elite unit for the Getai, therefore they are priced similar to the elite units of the KH.

I think it's a shame this mod makes anything approaching a top tier soldier so outrageously priced that you'd be stupid to build one. In my KH campaign, I never built a spartan hoplite. Never. I'm even the richest faction in the game, but I refuse to build one. For the price, I can afford several units of the next soldier down in tier, so why would I? Can't ever think of a reason. So it takes away from the game and the fun, because I'd like to build some. They're spartan hoplites for Christ's sake - the guys we've read so much about in history, the guys who stood against all the persians at Thermopolaie (I know, misspelled), the guys who did this, the guys who did that. And the game is set up so that I'd be stupid to build them, so I don't build them.
The more elite units have such high upkeeps because in reality there weren't many of them around, as you cannot restrict how many and how often you can recruit units in RTW giving them a huge upkeep to encourage the player and AI to stick to realistic numbers was the best option available.

Sure if you look at the cold hard maths they aren't the logical choice, not that this is particularly unhistorical though (the Battle of Sphacteria for example). Most people recruit them when they have the money just for the fun of having them in their armies, and certainly if your playing the KH once you have conquered Greece and upgraded the mines there you'll having so much money you will be actively wasting it to keep the bad traits at bay, so these guys are perfect in that situation.

I've suspected this for a while, but haven't said anything. Now I'll say it. Game units need to be rebalanced in terms of stats/cost. I strongly urge the people who created this mod to look into the issue. A starting point might be looking at upper-tier and elite units.
If you really care about it then why not make a submod of how you feel units should be balanced? The team is finished with EB (with the possible exception of a few bug fixes) and completely focused on EBII now.

seleucid empire

01-18-2012, 23:17

also pitting one unit against another in custom battle is a poor way to assess a unit.a unit of Spartans at a crucial point has saved many of my battles in previous koinon campaigns.

also im guessing the eb team made the price of elites unbalanced for historical reasons. Rome was a superpower because of its efficient way of raising large numbers of troops. thats why princples and triarii cost less than 2k while other elites cause 3k or more. the dacian elites are expensve because historically, most barbarian armies were made up of tribal levies with maybe some nobles mixed in. plus spartans were trained from birth so that would explain their high cost

Ca Putt

01-19-2012, 01:09

I think you've heard plenty replies to your general idea: Elites are far too expensive. And it all boils down to 3 points -
a) It's realistic as getting even better equipment is always disproportionally expensive(something represented in many games, take most RPGs skilling up from 20 to 21 costs much more xp than from 19 to 20 eventho the benefits are identical)
b) It's accurate as The costs of units in EB are not purely derived from stats but also from culture, historical evidence etc. etc. some people needed more money to rally similar troops than others.
c) It's fun as it forces you to rely more on regular troops and not spam the whole map with elites, which is just lame, silly and overly a-historic. Rome conquered ye known world with regular legionaries, not with Pretorians(like in RTW) or Antesignani, Alexander conquered Persia with Pezhetairoi not Hypaspistai, Gengis Kahn and other Steppe warlords conquerd the world with "rank and file" Horsearchers not Cataphracts, Hitler overran europe with Panzer 4, Bf 109 and regular infantry, not Tigers, Me262 and the SS, let alone the "Maus"-Panzer^^. If it were Elites(meaning troops not social class) that do all the fighting, the Roman empire would not have risen, instead the Spartans would have conquered the world until someone introduced Feudalism :D
... and we all know how it went ;)

Nightmare

01-19-2012, 02:32

I think there is some confusion here - probably my fault. I put the dacian elite skirmishers up against triarii in a custom battle, I did not put spartan hoplites up against triarii. I'm sure spartan hoplites would crush triarii. They'd do it cost in-effectively, mind you, but I imagine they'd do it.

The result for the dacian elite skirmishers was actually much worse, because I only used a single unit of triarii against them. In truth, I should have used 2-3 units of triarii. This means the dacian elites are total crap, because of their cost.

If you have the money, why not just recruit them? Nevermind the logic behind it. That's just part of the fun.

No. If I am intended to recruit them, then the numbers should reflect that. As it is, the numbers say DON'T recruit them, so I don't and won't.

It's not fun for me to recruit grossly cost-ineffective, sucky stuff - in other words, to hurt myself. I don't walk around during the day hitting myself in the head with a hammer every 5 minutes either.

Most players are just fine with the current system. Also, did you notice that Spartans have unusually high stamina and higher morale than Triarii?

Again, talking the elite skirmishers, not the spartans. But spartans are way, way overpriced too. And I don't give a crap about their higher morale - my units almost never break, not even entire armies of strictly levies. Or, if I have one break here or there, it doesn't really affect the outcome. I rarely enter into battles I can't or won't win.

Even if morale for my troops was a problem (it never is), I doubt the higher morale of the spartan hoplites justifies their grotestquely higher cost. 10 units of the lower end, lower moral stuff that breaks easier would still beat 1 unit of the spartan hoplites that never breaks.

The more elite units have such high upkeeps because in reality there weren't many of them around, as you cannot restrict how many and how often you can recruit units in RTW giving them a huge upkeep to encourage the player and AI to stick to realistic numbers was the best option available.

It wasn't the best option available. In fact, turning what should be great units into utterly crappy units by making them so cost-ineffective is inexcusable. INEXCUSABLE.

If they wanted to force players not to build too many of these elites (perhaps a dubious proposition in itself, but I'm not here to debate that), the best options would have been some combination of 1) taking multiple turns to recruit the units, 2) severely restricting the recruiting area for the units, or 3) severely shrinking the unit sizes of the units. See, that took me all of 10 seconds, and I came up with 3 alternatives that are better than what they chose to do - make the units so grotesquely expensive that they SUCK. Make no mistake, a unit will always suck if it costs too much, irrespective of whatever fantastic stats it may have.

It's fun as it forces you to rely more on regular troops and not spam the whole map with elites, which is just lame, silly and overly a-historic.

Maybe it's fun for you, but it's not fun for me because I simply am not allowed to build the cool units, and thus I have to play the entire game with cost-effective levy spears.

The designers of this mod had many skills and talents - many. They had imagination, they had historical knowledge, they had map-making skills and modeling skills, even musical skills. One thing they severely lacked was skill with balancing and numbers.

Smelly Jelly

01-19-2012, 04:03

There there... Let it go man. After all it's a piece of cake to readjust the unit stats to your liking. Always make a back-up first. Copy your entire EB folder and store it somewhere safe, like under your matras, next to your stack of porn. Then go to the EB/Data/descr_unit file, search for the unit you want to modify (ctrl f) and do it.
After successfully modding whichever unit you desire, exit and save the modified descr_unit file and copy it to the singleplayerbackupfolder in EB/.

Inside that backupfolder is another descr_unit file, you have to overwrite, otherwise the default unit stats will load.

You can tweak just about anything. give weapons armour piercing attributes, more or less arrows, unit cost, upkeep, skills etc.

Blxz

01-19-2012, 05:54

In fact, turning what should be great units into utterly crappy units by making them so cost-ineffective is inexcusable. INEXCUSABLE.

Hahaha, oh jeez. Your posts are getting worse and worse with every day that I check back here. What are you, like 15?
You came into this forum with all these strong opinions and demands for change. Your way of going about getting the changes you want is to basically rant and hope people listen. Its not working for the following reasons:
1- They are balanced, not to money but for intra-faction and historical equipment setup. Dudes with helmets get more armour, etc. This is not balanced for multiplayer. Some factions are indeed weaker than others. They have ways of winning a battle but it requires tactics to overcome their equipment weaknesses. This is real.

2- As bobbin said, the team have finished working on EB. If you really want to effect some changes for the future you should go and rant in the EB2 forum. Better still, don't rant and try and present your case clearly, concisely and without these wild displays of emotion. If there is one thing that I learnt from MY classes it is that being a little more rational will go a long way in making people listen to you.

but it's not fun for me because I simply am not allowed to build the cool units, and thus I have to play the entire game with cost-effective levy spears.

English fail or more wild hyperbole? Who knows. But you were indeed allowed to recruit them. You chose not to despite having sickenly large amounts of money and being the richest in the world. This actually DID hurt you since by having large amounts of cash on hand, your faction members begin to develop bad traits. Use these money sinks because they are cool and when you have too much money they can stop you from going into huge levels of corruption and vices for your leaders. A double win if I say so myself.

Brave Brave Sir Robin

01-19-2012, 06:12

Nightmare

01-19-2012, 07:05

There there... Let it go man.

Nah, it's all good bro. I'm just stating the facts as I see them. At the end of the day, I have too many hot girlfriends to bang to worry too much about this stuff, heh.

However, I would be interested in making my own mini-mod for balance purposes as someone suggested above. I'd do it if there were a few guys who agreed with the problems I outlined and were willing to assist. But if it's just me alone, I lack the time or motivation to dig so deep into the inner guts of the game, plot out effectiveness charts for hundreds of units, and come up with some balance scheme. I could do it, it would just be easier on me if I had some help.

Thanks for your info on how to mod the game - much appreciated. A quick and dirty with minimal effort on my part would be to just arbitrarily take units (say this elite dacian skirmisher, or the spartan hoplite) and drop the cost some arbitrary amount. At the end of the day, it would probably be no worse than the way the game is balanced now, and would probably be better. However, my problem is the word "arbitrary."

Jut off hand, anyone know someone who knows the "theory" (if there is one, heh) on how the modders came up with the unit stats? I'm asking because it would be helpful as a starting point for my own modding efforts if I knew the idea behind the way THEY did it. For instance, it would be useful for me to know if there was some number or numbers they used - say cost per attack point or cost per defense point or whatever. I could at least think about using similar formulas as they did and merely adjusting them. The pragmatist in me prefers to start simple and prefer the smallest/easiest changes possible to achieve, well, "sanity" in upper-tier unit stats.

Nightmare

01-19-2012, 07:07

Hahaha, oh jeez. Your posts are getting worse and worse with every day that I check back here. What are you, like 15?
You came into this forum with all these strong opinions and demands for change. Your way of going about getting the changes you want is to basically rant and hope people listen.

Pointing out something that seems strange (amazingly high cost for a unit that doesn't seem reflective of its worth) and asking "am I missing something - a hidden stat perhaps - or is this indeed strange?" doesn't qualify as a "demand for change" or a "rant hoping people will listen" in my book.

About the only thing accurate in what you said was "strong opinion," which I only formed after getting feedback and information from the posters here, and which I don't apologize for. Before I received that feedback, it was merely "suspicion of something strange," not "strong opinion."

...try and present your case clearly, concisely and without these wild displays of emotion. If there is one thing that I learnt from MY classes it is that being a little more rational will go a long way in making people listen to you.

On the contrary, the wild displays of emotion come from butthurt people like you who come into a thread and attack people personally because you think your favorite game that you have a personal attachment to is being attacked, therefore in your tribal mentality you think YOU are being attacked, and you "circle the wagons" and attack back, mostly with personal attacks. On the other hand, I have in fact presented my case "clearly, concisely, and without wild displays of emotion." There is nothing emotional about stating the fact that the mathematics of a unit don't work out from a cost-efficiency standpoint. There is nothing emotional about stating that a unit of these dacian elite skirmishers loses handily to a unit of cheap triarii which are recruitable the instant a roma campaign is started for the first time.

Since you don't like my posts, I recommend you put me on your ignore list, which is what I'm about to do with you now, so don't bother responding to this as I won't see it. "Cya, wouldn't want to be ya."

Nightmare

01-19-2012, 07:11

If you wanted to balance infantry elites, give them 80 men a piece on large as opposed to 60. This would justify their cost pretty well. Its also worth noting that we are always limited by 20 unit slots for an army. So when you get insanely wealthy, your full stack can still only have 20 units. Cost effective units aren't worth as much at this point, albeit this is late game.

Oh and its worth noting that we did readjust almost all units for EB Online so that their costs are reflective of their usefulness with a few exceptions i.e. Romans still slightly cheaper with infantry while their cav costs more, though these are few and far between. If you wanted to use that edu for SP, you might like it more. That being said, I don't think upkeep costs were edited as it is meant solely for MP.

I am very interested in hearing more about this - both the "give them 80 men a piece on large" (how/why does that work?) and the multiplayer stats you are using. If you guys believe the MP stuff is balanced the way I'd like, it would be quite easy for me to just use those.

As to my using the MP numbers, could you tell me a good way to adjust the upkeeps? Off the top of my head, would taking the percentage by which you reduced the recruitment cost for a unit, and reducing the upkeep by the same amount, work?

Appreciate the help!

seleucid empire

01-19-2012, 07:59

seleucid empire

01-19-2012, 08:04

plus youve been a member of this forum for more than 3 years i can see, and im guessing youve played EB for much longer so anything you say has more credibility than what nightmare says :P

Ludens

01-19-2012, 10:21

Keep it polite, please. Attack the argument, not the person.

This applies to everyone.

The Celtic Viking

01-19-2012, 12:30

I am very interested in hearing more about this - both the "give them 80 men a piece on large" (how/why does that work?) and the multiplayer stats you are using. If you guys believe the MP stuff is balanced the way I'd like, it would be quite easy for me to just use those.

As to my using the MP numbers, could you tell me a good way to adjust the upkeeps? Off the top of my head, would taking the percentage by which you reduced the recruitment cost for a unit, and reducing the upkeep by the same amount, work?

Appreciate the help!

The MP numbers would probably fall more to your liking - for example, the Komatai Epilektoi only cost 1686 and should have 40 men on normal size there.

As for how to calculate their upkeep, well, in the regular SP edu the upkeep is 1/4 of the recruitment cost, and you should be able to use that here too. That would put Komatai Epilektoi upkeep at about 422 (1686 / 4 = 421.5 ~ 422).

Please note that if you do decide to integrate the MP edu for SP games you will also need to fix their ownership, as well as use the descr_projectiles_new file that comes with the MP edu (alternatively edit the MP edu even more)

Nightmare

01-19-2012, 13:11

The MP numbers would probably fall more to your liking - for example, the Komatai Epilektoi only cost 1686 and should have 40 men on normal size there.

As for how to calculate their upkeep, well, in the regular SP edu the upkeep is 1/4 of the recruitment cost, and you should be able to use that here too. That would put Komatai Epilektoi upkeep at about 422 (1686 / 4 = 421.5 ~ 422).

Please note that if you do decide to integrate the MP edu for SP games you will also need to fix their ownership, as well as use the descr_projectiles_new file that comes with the MP edu (alternatively edit the MP edu even more)

I find it interesting that half the people here think it's crazy for me to bring this issue up, and the other half have apparently found the same problem I have and have modded the multiplayer accordingly just so the game makes sense to play from an MP perspective.

Anyway, thanks Celtic Viking and others. I'm definitely interested in trying the multiplayer configs for SP. If someone could throw some simplistic instructions up here on how to do this, I'd be very appreciative (I don't even know what an "edu" is). Or do you think it would be worth it to post asking for such a mod in the main area? I'm sure someone has done this before, saving me the trouble of having to edit upkeeps, ownerships, etc. right?

Ca Putt

01-19-2012, 13:38

I find it interesting that half the people here think it's crazy for me to bring this issue up, and the other half have apparently found the same problem I have and have modded the multiplayer accordingly just so the game makes sense to play from an MP perspective. not quite, I think even more people think that the stats are unsuited for multiplayer, afterall in multiplayer it's all about a fair match between two real guys/gals thus pricing has to be fair for the battle. In singleplayer you get all the AOR stuff and the question of campaign capabilities(of the unit takes close to no losses, It does not have to be replaced on campaign) and the different budgets of the factions...

The EDU - Export_Descr_Unit.txt is the textfile you'll have to edit and generally have a lot of fun with, it lingers about in RTW/EB/Data amung others which largely similar names. (like the aforementioned dpn)

This could be usefull btw: http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/tutorials/index_units_generals.shtml

have fun modding :)

And if you really want those shiny elite units(as anyone else) the costs may be high but even a sweboz player can afford an army of elites at some point of the game. I remember having a landing party of a KH FM, 4 spartans(units), 2 Cretans, 2 Rhodians, and 2 Tracian Prodromoi, beating the crap out of the Ptolemies^^, that was fun, two of my land armies had 3 units of epilektoi each, not counting the numberous other "elite"/"overpriced" units I fielded, I already held most of my VC but hey, IF you want to train elites a good economy can cope with it.
I like to see my armies "grow" from a simple band of Haploi and Sphendoatai into regular armies of Hoplitai that with increaced wealth of the League gets some Elites.

The Celtic Viking

01-19-2012, 13:49

To my knowledge, no one has gone through with it, but it is very easy to do yourself. Unfortunately, it's also very tedious, as you have to go through each and every unit. Anyway, I can give you the instructions here. Okay. First off, make a backup of the single player export_descr_unit (that's what edu stands for) file. You will find it in "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\sp game edu backup". This is both so you can revert back to regular EB if you change your mind, and so that you can get the correct ownership lines later. Also make a backup the descr_projectiles_new file, which you will find at "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\data" for the first reason.

Then go and download the MP edu here (http://www.mediafire.com/?jnkb1l9a7kvyhbv). Unfortunately, you don't seem to get the projectiles file there, so I uploaded it myself here (http://www.mediafire.com/?mij26yvoxqg7271). Put the edu in "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\sp game edu backup", and the descr_projectiles_new in "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\data".

Then open both the regular EB edu and the MP edu. Press ctrl + f to search for ;487 to skip to the first unit with the differences, the African Forest Elephant. The first line to look at is the second last one which should look like this in the MP edu:

stat_cost 2, 7500, 2500, 270, 400, 7500

The first number is how many turns it takes to recruit it, the second number the recruitment cost and the third the upkeep. After that are the weapon and armour cost for upgrades, and lastly the recruitment cost in custom battles. So, to calculate these elephants new upkeep cost, you take the recruitment cost - the second from the left, i.e. 7500 - and divide it by 4.

7500 / 4 = 1875.

Then you change the third number into 1875, so it looks like this:

stat_cost 2, 7500, 1875, 270, 400, 7500

Then the upkeep cost for these beasts is done. Next is ownership, which is the line just below it.

ownership egypt, numidia, saba, slave, seleucid

To know what it should be like, look in the regular SP edu and if necessary just copy that line and paste it into the MP edu, overwriting the pre-existing line. In this case, though, it's not necessary since the African Forest Elephants have the same ownership in MP as they do in SP.

Then you just have to go down the list and do that with every unit until you reach the end. As I said, it's not difficult, it's just tedious.

Good luck!

Lazy O

01-19-2012, 14:09

Instead of modding the SP why do you not simply come to the hamachi network? The networks are empty and I need people to beat up :))))

Blxz

01-19-2012, 15:56

Blxz i dont think you should worry too much about him putting you on his ignore list. he is probably a kid after all and hes done the same to me and put me on his ignore list after i gave him advice on how to use chariots. This guy just doesnt listen and rates units as good or bad as he wants while denouncing the eb team. And anyway, now if you post something relevant and he cant see it and keeps ranting, he'll just look stupid

No worry there at all, I guess I could consider it a victory that he blocked me =)
I still had a good laugh at the post. And I tried to offer constructive criticism. Also, no need to put anyone on my block list; I've yet to see the use for it unless someone is a known porn spammer or something similar. Still, all the power to him. At least now no one gets offended.

And by the looks of it he has found a few like minded people to help him with his modding. Although I am still convinced he is trolling, just being very good/subtle at it. =D

Lysimachos

01-19-2012, 17:38

It may be too late, but I still want to share my take on this.

You can never, ever command more than 20 units at the same time. So, yes, although some elite units are so expensive that you could instead recruit several decent ones, they have a use, because they will improve the performance of your 20 of choice. If you don't need elite, that's fine, but you'd be even better of with them.

The pricetag doesn't mean you are not supposed to recruit them at all. It means you are not supposed to as long as you can't afford them, but once you can, you are. There isn't a single elite unit that's cost effective compared to cheaper ones. But that's what improved economy is for.

I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around why you are so adamant about not being able to recruit elite units, even though you have the money for it. The campaign economy is part of the balancing (that's a reason why balancing for multiplayer is different: there is no campaign and no economy). What is the money for if not for spending it?

Nightmare

01-19-2012, 19:01

To my knowledge, no one has gone through with it, but it is very easy to do yourself. Unfortunately, it's also very tedious, as you have to go through each and every unit. Anyway, I can give you the instructions here. Okay. First off, make a backup of the single player export_descr_unit (that's what edu stands for) file. You will find it in "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\sp game edu backup". This is both so you can revert back to regular EB if you change your mind, and so that you can get the correct ownership lines later. Also make a backup the descr_projectiles_new file, which you will find at "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\data" for the first reason.

Then go and download the MP edu here. Unfortunately, you don't seem to get the projectiles file there, so I uploaded it myself here. Put the edu in "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\sp game edu backup", and the descr_projectiles_new in "where-ever-you-installed-RTW\EB\data".

Fantastic, thanks! I'll do the downloads now.

Just to make 100% sure this does what I want, I'll describe what I'm after because there might be a little bit of confusion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your MP mod equalizes factions with each other, right? So that Rome would be equivalent to Saba, for example, and you could put the two head to head MP and no one is at a disadvantage. If so, I totally understand the need for that for MP. For SP, I'm not after that change, although if your mod enacts that change, it's fine (I'm neutral on it). The change I want is as follows.

My prime directive in this game, and pretty much any game, is that I'm not punished for teching up. In fact, I'm rewarded for it. Cost-effectiveness of units should INCREASE as I tech, not DECREASE as is currently the case.

Let's take a pike phalanx as an example. You have the lowly levy pikes, then the medium pikes, then the elite pikes. The medium pikes should be more cost-effective than the levy pikes, and the elite pikes should be more cost effective than the medium pikes. If it doesn't work this way, then I am being punished for teching up, and in fact there is no reason to tech up because cost effectiveness is better where I am at levy.

The same sort of rule applies if there is an odd unit up in the tech tree not part of a "line" (levy pike, medium pike, elite pike), it's just harder to visualize because you don't have other units beneath it to compare it to. For example, assume that chariots pop-in at tech level 3. Okay, we can't see where they are at tech level 1 or 2, because they don't exist there. But when they come in at tech 3 they should be "reasonably" cost effective at what they do, or provide some useful ability that wasn't available before, otherwise there is no reason to tech to them or use them.

At any rate, THAT'S what I want. Does your MP mod do that? If it just equalizes between factions, that's fine, but I don't need that. If it equalizes between factions (or doesn't), AND it does what I just described, THAT'S what I want and I'll be downloading it and modding.

Just off hand, assuming it does what I want, how did you guys come up with the recruitment cost numbers?

Again, thanks!

Nightmare

01-19-2012, 19:33

It may be too late, but I still want to share my take on this.

You are not too late my, my friend. By all means, chime in.

You can never, ever command more than 20 units at the same time. So, yes, although some elite units are so expensive that you could instead recruit several decent ones, they have a use, because they will improve the performance of your 20 of choice. If you don't need elite, that's fine, but you'd be even better of with them.

As far as not commanding more than 20 units at a time, I understand the argument, but I don't find it compelling. If I just had one stack I could build and deploy in a game, and only one stack, then I'd find the argument far more persuasive. I'd be dead if that one stack dies, so it might very well pay off to spend whatever I could to put the best units possible (not in terms of cost-effectiveness, but in terms of stats) in that stack. As it stands, I can have as many stacks as I can afford in a game, certain limits applying of course. So I should stock each stack with the most cost-effective units I can, not with the most powerful stat-wise. Yes, my first el-cheapo stack might die to your all-elite stack, and the second one too. But I have a third right behind that (and a fourth, and a fifth).

The pricetag doesn't mean you are not supposed to recruit them at all. It means you are not supposed to as long as you can't afford them, but once you can, you are.

Again, I buy this argument more if I'm just allowed to have one stack. But under the current circumstances, even if I can afford elites, I should just recruit nothing but the lower-end stuff.

There isn't a single elite unit that's cost effective compared to cheaper ones. But that's what improved economy is for.

Agree about the elites, which is why I came here and posted. But the improved economy is for building more stacks of the cheaper stuff, not for building elites.

I'm sorry, but I can't wrap my head around why you are so adamant about not being able to recruit elite units, even though you have the money for it.

If you can give me mathematics or logic as to why I should recruit the elites when I have the money for it, I'll change my position and do just that. So far, nobody has been able to do that. So far, the mathematics and logic say "stay with the cheap stuff." You said yourself above that "there isn't a single elite unit that's cost effective compared to cheaper ones." That says it all right there, and is my argument in a nutshell. It means if you build elites, you aren't being cost-effective, and you aren't optimizing or maximizing your play.

What's the point of playing a strategy game if you aren't maximizing or optimizing your play? You are losing if you aren't doing that! Of course, you aren't ever "losing" to the AI, but forget about that. Play against yourself, mentally, not against the dumb AI. Play against a perfect game you could play.

Pretend for a minute that you are playing chess instead of EB. You have calculated the best chess move you could possibly make. All other moves are inferior to this one. Do you play the best move, or an inferior one? Well, with EB as it is currently balanced, the best move is almost always "build cheap stuff, don't tech up." So why would I play another move?

Of course, if you are playing chess against a dumb AI, you won't be punished for playing an inferior move. But chess guys don't ever play against the dumb AI, even if they actually are. In their minds, they play against the most perfect game they could play. If they play an inferior move, but still win the game, they know another chess guy standing over their shoulder reviewing the game would say "you could have played such-and-such and come out better."

It just occurred to me that some of this back-and-forth might be between role playing people and strategy game people, because this game seems to have both types, I guess. I treat the game as a strategy game, not as a chance to role play or whatever. I can see the value of building elites if I'm role playing, because in that case I could care less about playing the best game, rationally and logically, that I could play. But I'm not a role playing guy, I'm a strategy guy.

The campaign economy is part of the balancing (that's a reason why balancing for multiplayer is different: there is no campaign and no economy). What is the money for if not for spending it?

For me, as a strategy guy and not a role playing guy, the money is in fact for more stacks of cheap, cost-effective stuff. It's easy to calculate that as the best move. The problem is, it's also not challenging or fulfilling from a strategy perspective - you simply don't tech up, and you continue to mash the "build levy spear" button over and over again. That's why it makes sense to rebalance the units so you actually have to tech up and use higher grade units to win the game.

Thanks for your perspective. If I have something wrong here, or missed something in your logic, by all means tell me where I'm wrong.

The Celtic Viking

01-19-2012, 21:31

Before I say anything else I think I should make it clear that it is not, in fact, my mod. All praise belongs to Gamegeek2 for making it.

To your first question though, regarding if all factions have been equaled out, that is a negative. Saba are still vastly inferior to Rome, as you bring out that example. There are a couple of factions that have been made more playable though, such as Sweboz, but the "food chain" is still there.

In answer to your second question, regarding better units being more cost-effective than inferior units, that's not quite true. One of the goals of the modding has been to make elites more cost-effective though, and you will definitely see that. If you're wondering if it's worth it, you can just download the edu and look it up and decide for yourself first. I think that by your criterion this EDU is a clear improvement over the regular one, though still not perfect. (Incidentally, I agree, but from my own criterions. :laugh4:)

As for how the cost is decided, I don't know exactly. There's a documentary that was included with all previous uploads of the EDU (but also was lost together with the projectiles file, apparently), but it's not very specific. From what I understand, basically each unit is designated in a certain tier (which also determines how many men will be in the unit) which gives it a base cost. After that things like training, equipment and factional bonuses and penalties etc. are applied before the final cost is arrived at. Besides Gamegeek2 himself Kival's the guy who understands it the best, so you should hope either of them drop in I guess. :shrug:

bobbin

01-19-2012, 22:15

It wasn't the best option available. In fact, turning what should be great units into utterly crappy units by making them so cost-ineffective is inexcusable. INEXCUSABLE.

If they wanted to force players not to build too many of these elites (perhaps a dubious proposition in itself, but I'm not here to debate that), the best options would have been some combination of 1) taking multiple turns to recruit the units, 2) severely restricting the recruiting area for the units, or 3) severely shrinking the unit sizes of the units. See, that took me all of 10 seconds, and I came up with 3 alternatives that are better than what they chose to do - make the units so grotesquely expensive that they SUCK. Make no mistake, a unit will always suck if it costs too much, irrespective of whatever fantastic stats it may have.
Not a dubious proposition if you intend to follow a little thing called reality.
As for you alternatives,
1) Doesn't restrict the numbers of elite units, allows you to support unrealistically large numbers of elite units.
2) We already do that, a lot. How did you not notice?
3) Tiny unit sizes have a major negative impact on a units performance in battle, it makes them way too susceptible to cavalry charges and missiles.

So surprise surprise, the only option that is a hard limit on unit numbers is cost (you can't build them if you have no money).

Maybe it's fun for you, but it's not fun for me because I simply am not allowed to build the cool units, and thus I have to play the entire game with cost-effective levy spears.
The only person not allowing you to recruit these units is yourself, stop acting like it is being imposed on you.

The designers of this mod had many skills and talents - many. They had imagination, they had historical knowledge, they had map-making skills and modeling skills, even musical skills. One thing they severely lacked was skill with balancing and numbers.
Listen, the whole point of this mod it to follow history as closely as possible, and you may have noticed that history is full of inequality. If you want a finely balanced game go play Starcraft and stop posting insults about people who know a hell of a lot more about the aim of this mod and how to accomplish it than you do.

athanaric

01-19-2012, 22:49

One thing they severely lacked was skill with balancing and numbers.
Actually one of the things I like best about EB is its finely tuned stat system and general unit balancing. This coming from someone who's spent quite a lot of time playing EB campaigns. I suggest you get used to the various factions in this game a bit, maybe that'll change your view of things eventually.

Stark

01-19-2012, 23:14

Couldn't someone just ban him?

Please?

FinnishedBarbarian

01-20-2012, 01:35

Couldn't someone just ban him?

Please?

I for one believe that people have right for differing opinions eventhough this topic is one that stirs strong opinions.

Afterall this is supposed to be forum where different views are allowed ain't it?

On the topic

I think Nightmare has three choices:

1. Mod the units more to his liking
2. Trying to take the historical "ineffective" approach to EB
3. Move to playing games/mods that has teching/blinging makes units better cost-effective approach

You have to remember that RTW engine can't limit recruitment of those cheaper units either, if the MTW2 recruitment system were in place you wouldn't be able to field (for example as getai controlling dacia/thracia) those 6-7 fullstacks of cheaper troops so you would be forced to use units that give at least some edge over the foes levy/semi-professionals.

Human history even in case of warfare is hardly about what's sensible or cost effective.

Blxz

01-20-2012, 05:26

Listen, the whole point of this mod it to follow history as closely as possible, and you may have noticed that history is full of inequality. If you want a finely balanced game go play Starcraft and stop posting insults about people who know a hell of a lot more about the aim of this mod and how to accomplish it than you do.

I said something similar and he blocked me. He is deeply convinced he is right and very little seems to sway him. I don't know why he plays a mod that aims to be as historically accurate as possible within the confines of the engine.

Also Athanaric, I have to agree with you. I've found EB to be a very very well balanced game. Each faction is not (as bobbin put it) 'starcraft balanced' but they each have strengths and weaknesses. Overcoming each weakness is the fun of the game.

I understand his point of view about balancing though, but it doesn't make much sense if you consider what the mod is about or what it represents or aims to achieve.

Nightmare

01-20-2012, 06:45

Not a dubious proposition if you intend to follow a little thing called reality.

If the intention was to follow reality, this wouldn't be a game, because games allow choices and the opportunity to change reality. This would just be a script running, showing what happened in history, like a movie playing out on the game engine, with no input from the user other than "play movie."

1) Doesn't restrict the numbers of elite units, allows you to support unrealistically large numbers of elite units.

You don't think that making a spartan hoplite take 5 turns to recruit would tend to somewhat restrict how many end up being on the field? Okay, what about 10 turns? What about 20 turns?

Either way, I have news for you. With the current system, I can still field "unrealistically large" numbers of elite units. I've done it - full stacks of druids with Casse. So your system doesn't even stop what you want stopped, it simply makes it impossible to field elites and play the game rationally at the same time. At least with some stat changes, you could introduce more rationality for the people who care about that.

Look, either way, if the choice is between the player choosing of his own accord to recruit unrealistically large numbers of elite units, or making unit prices so ridiculous that you have to suspend rationalism - in a strategy game no less - in order to field certain units, why is it so outrageous to some people to propose making certain prices cheaper and then let the player play his game? If he then chooses to play "unrealistically" or "ahistorically," that's HIS problem, not yours, right? YOU don't have to make that choice.

I mean, if you are against the proposition - fine, more power to you. But why be OFFENDED at such a proposition?

2) We already do that, a lot. How did you not notice?

I did notice. But perhaps you don't do it enough. As an alternative to jacking up the price of certain units so much that you would only build them for the lolz (imagine - a spartan hoplite degenerated to the point where someone says "I built one just for the lolz" - degrading!), I am suggesting that perhaps you can do it even more.

3) Tiny unit sizes have a major negative impact on a units performance in battle, it makes them way too susceptible to cavalry charges and missiles.

I agree it has a downside that must be weighed against everything else. It's still an alternative to doing what you are doing, which has its own downsides.

Personally, I think alternative 1 has the most potential. If we must be history nazis and force the player to "play historically," this could probably be done by making elite units take multiple turns to recruit.

The only person not allowing you to recruit these units is yourself, stop acting like it is being imposed on you.

If I am to play the game irrationally, no, it's not being imposed on me. If I am to play the game rationally, yes, it is being imposed on me. I don't care to play strategy games irrationally.

Listen, the whole point of this mod it to follow history as closely as possible...

Stop kidding yourself. Again, if the real point of the mod is to do what you said, it wouldn't be a game where you could even partipate. It would simply be a script running showing you all the historical events that occurred all the way until Rome took everything - like a movie being played out on the game engine. But the minute you let the player start making choices (apparently the game allows that), you are changing history, therefore you aren't "following history as closely as possible."

Apparently it's supposed to be a game foremost and primarily, and something that has a lot of historical flavor, historical basis, and historical accuracy secondarily. And I support that, because it's the only thing that makes sense as a game. If I want to watch a movie, I'll watch a movie. If I want to play a game, I'll play a game.

If you want a finely balanced game go play Starcraft and stop posting insults about people who know a hell of a lot more about the aim of this mod and how to accomplish it than you do.

Why the personal attacks and insults? Do you always insult people you disagree with? Have I insulted you?

How about I play whatever I want to play, and post whatever I want to post? Furthermore, since I want this thread to remain active and not shut down just because some people can't have a polite conversation, why don't I report you, and then put you on my ignore list?

Nightmare

01-20-2012, 06:52

@Bobbin, it says you are a mod or admin, so I can't ignore you? Now THAT's funny!

Kival

01-20-2012, 07:15

Intranetusa

01-20-2012, 07:15

You can't really compare them with Triarii since the Triarii (especially the early Triarii hoplties) are greatly under-priced elite infantry. In earlier EB versions, early Triarii used to be around 2200-2300 (even then it was underpriced) in cost since their stats are basically elite hoplites. The later Triarii are under-priced elite spearmen.

seleucid empire

01-20-2012, 07:16

Either way, I have news for you. With the current system, I can still field "unrealistically large" numbers of elite units. I've done it - full stacks of druids with Casse. So your system doesn't even stop what you want stopped, it simply makes it impossible to field elites and play the game rationally at the same time. At least with some stat changes, you could introduce more rationality for the people who care about that.

first he says im not building any elite units cause the game makes them impossible to recruits then he admits to making fullstacks of druids

seleucid empire

01-20-2012, 07:19

I did notice. But perhaps you don't do it enough. As an alternative to jacking up the price of certain units so much that you would only build them for the lolz (imagine - a spartan hoplite degenerated to the point where someone says "I built one just for the lolz" - degrading!), I am suggesting that perhaps you can do it even more.

Spartans are already restricted to one province, what more do you want?

Nightmare

01-20-2012, 09:38

If you want to use the EB MP EDU by gamegeek in Multiplayer I'd advise you to use WinMerge. This way it's much easier and inflicted with much less errors to copy the changes from MP into SP. I'd not advise to use the MP stats 1 to 1 in SP but that's up to you. Anyway it's so much work I gave up my own trial to mod the SP EDU into my personal liking. You should bring some time and frustration tolerance as it's not the most interesting thing to do in the world :laugh:

I was actually writing a program just now to make all the changes for me so I wouldn't have to do it manually. I'd say the program is half-finished at this point, but since I have some things to do now I don't expect to finish it until tomorrow. However if there is some other program that can do this for me (WinMerge or whatever) please point me to it by all means!

By the way, could you please elaborate on what you mean by not using MP stats 1 to 1 in SP?

Thanks!

Titus Marcellus Scato

01-20-2012, 09:56

For me, playing on huge unit size helps encourage use of the elite units. Two levy units might be more efficient and cost effective than one elite, but when recruiting one unit of spearmen reduces my population by 240, I can't afford to deplete my town populations by recruiting a great many levies - using elites gets me 'more bang per head of population being recruited'.

athanaric

01-20-2012, 10:05

Either way, I have news for you. With the current system, I can still field "unrealistically large" numbers of elite units. I've done it - full stacks of druids with Casse. But why on earth would you do that? ~:( They're awfully slow and have a small unit size. Not the most versatile unit either.

Why the personal attacks and insults? Do you always insult people you disagree with? Have I insulted you?
No, actually I believe you're the first person on this board to make bobbin mad. I'd give you +rep for that but I'm afraid that only works on TWC.

Blxz

01-20-2012, 11:17

Furthermore, since I want this thread to remain active and not shut down just because some people can't have a polite conversation, why don't I report you, and then put you on my ignore list?

---------------------------------------------

@Bobbin, it says you are a mod or admin, so I can't ignore you? Now THAT's funny!

Can i just say that I called it =) He blocks everyone that doesn't seem to agree with him. Really weird guy.

I mean, if you are against the proposition - fine, more power to you. But why be OFFENDED at such a proposition?

Since I am blocked can someone tell him that the reason people become offended by his 'suggestions' (demands) is because he is acting like an arse. These big wordy monologues where he insults pretty much everyone he can find are the epitome of hypocrisy. He then goes on and blocks people who do't agree with him.

I must admit it is interesting forum play, but the popcorn is running out and he is still talking.

seleucid empire

01-20-2012, 11:21

Can i just say that I called it =) He blocks everyone that doesn't seem to agree with him. Really weird guy.

haha i think i said this first in another of his posts

seleucid empire

01-20-2012, 11:22

also since im also blocked someone point out to him that he says he refuses to buy elites and then makes an army of them

Blxz

01-20-2012, 11:31

double post

Hey man, not meaning to step on toes but its generally considered bad forum etiquette to post twice in a row. You have done this quite a few times, what you can do is just use the edit button that is on the bottom right of your post and then you can add in some more stuff. Obviously editing once other replies have been posted below yours is also bad etiquette, but...... you get the picture =)

seleucid empire

01-20-2012, 11:33

oh i had no idea that was bad etiquette, sorry ill try to keep that in mind and say all i need to say in one. im new to the forum after all :)

Nightmare

01-20-2012, 11:59

But why on earth would you do that? They're awfully slow and have a small unit size. Not the most versatile unit either.

You really want to know why I would do it? I had already won the game, and did it for the lolz, because there really isn't any other reason to make elites except for the lolz.

Or perhaps you wanted to know why druids and not some other unit? I won the game so fast that, at the time, it was the best unit I could produce. People talked about some uber-elites available after reforms, but I never got anything like that.

No, actually I believe you're the first person on this board to make bobbin mad.

I didn't make anyone mad. If people were made mad, they did it to themselves. I have been polite to all, and have treated all with respect UNTIL someone personally attacked me or insulted me first. That's simply a matter of record.

Okay, normally I wouldn't give in to an armada of trolls, but it's getting boring scrolling through messages that are hidden from people on my ignore list, plus it just seems more and more trolls keep coming out of the woodwork. I think I've done all I can do with this thread, and have gotten all I can from it in terms of modding information. To whoever else is interested, I think we can take the rest of the discussion offline to private messages where the trolls aren't privy to what's said and can't keep filling up the message board with insults.

I hope Celtic Viking and others don't mind if I send a private message if I need to consult on these mods. Also, once I have finished modding the files, you guys (Celtic Viking, CA Putts, whoever) are welcome to it. You can either keep it in an archive, use it yourself, or make a mod out of it and distribute it if you think others are interested.

Peace out.

Lazy O

01-20-2012, 12:30

But you really need to stop thinking that EB is anything like Starcraft and that all factions will be balanced and a dragoon will indefinitely be better than a zealot, history did not exactly work like that. Thing is, you might have the elitest units in the game, but I would not give a damn, since I have 5 cataphracts and 15 other Horse Archers which are 10x cheaper and basically invincible :D .

XSamatan

01-20-2012, 12:45

Nightmare, you need to calm down.

This forum is a place to discuss EB and things around the mod in a polite manner, adding half the members to your personal blocking list because you don't agree or listen to their opinions and comments is very unpolite and the team won't tolerate such behavior.

You made some qualified posts here, some thoughts are worth the reading but the whole direction of your threads is not what we want to see here.
Therefore I will personally check any new posts from your side until you learned how to behave in our forums, if you can't behave you have to leave.

To give you a guideline what we generally tolerate and what not:
- insulting other members, aggressive posts and the absence of understanding that other opinions exist is negative
- threads about the valence of units, factions or strategies are well seen by the team, in most of the times other members learn new things, but everyone has to accept other opinions and the discussion has to be polite
- I doubt you had read the forum rules (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?112579-Forum-Rules) before starting your arguments here, so please read it prior to posting here again

Regards,
XSamatan

KyodaiSteeleye

01-20-2012, 14:11

I think posters need to bear in mind that putting down strongly worded opinions tends to wind people up with differing views, creating an argument rather than a discussion. Nightmare has every right to have views on certain things and to express them here. Everyone else has the right to disagree with him - which they do :)

Nightmare

01-20-2012, 15:12

Nightmare, you need to calm down.

XSamatan, I'm not wound up. In fact, I left this thread until you sent a message to my inbox telling me to come back. I see that you want to pick a fight, and since you look like a mod, admin, or some other sort, it seems you have the power to do just that :-(

This forum is a place to discuss EB and things around the mod in a polite manner, adding half the members to your personal blocking list because you don't agree or listen to their opinions and comments is very unpolite and the team won't tolerate such behavior.

XSamatan, whoever said I added anyone to a list because I didn't agree or listen to their comments? Do you even know what you are talking about? While I believe it is perfectly within my rights to add anyone to a blocking list for whatever reason I want, I have only added anyone because they have personally attacked or insulted me, period, paragraph, end of story. This is a matter of record and it is documented.

Now, you might not be interested in any documentation, or fairness. In fact, I'm sure you aren't. But it's there. Anytime you've seen someone added to my list, you will also see that they personally attacked me or insulted me or were rude right there in the very thread where I add them to the blocking list. There have been plenty of people to disagree with me on this forum on whatever topic. But they have done so in a polite and cordial manner, and they have not been added to any lists, nor will they be.

Ironically, you call me out for adding people to a blocking list (something perfectly within my rights), but I have been doing this SO AS TO ELIMINATE PROBLEMS AND POTENTIAL PROBLEMS on the forum, because once all the people who insult and personally attack are on my list, they can no longer be seen by me, and I can no longer respond to them, therefore the problems should be gone. That was my thinking, anyway. And yet you call me out on it.

Whoever you are, it's amazing how biased and blind you are. You can read this entire thread and see that I never personally attacked or insulted anyone. Others did it to me first, then I responded and put them on my blocking list. You could have attacked the troublemakers and called them out. But who did you attack and call out, publicly to boot? Me. Boy, you have some nerve, I have to say that.

This entire thread is full of the background chatter of people who I put on my blocking list previously, making insults and snide comments amonst each other as the thread progressed. All of it is pretty nasty stuff. Yet I haven't said a word to any of them or addressed any of it. If you wanted to call someone out for being a troublemaker, you could and should have called any of them out. Did you? No, you called me out. For nothing. Or, rather, for ignoring the troublemakers and their attacks on me. That's truly amazing.

Therefore I will personally check any new posts from your side until you learned how to behave in our forums, if you can't behave you have to leave.

Check away buddy, each and every post. I'm not going anywhere. Go ahead and ban me if you want, but I'm not going anywhere on my own, because I have done absolutely nothing wrong. Again, some nerve and gall. Utterly amazing.

insulting other members, aggressive posts and the absence of understanding that other opinions exist is negative

1) I have not insulted anyone, at least not until they insulted me first. You want to level an accusation, buddy? SHOW ME THE POST where I insulted someone who didn't insult me first.

2) I don't know what an "aggressive post" is, unless it's the one I'm reading from you.

3) I kindly regard all opinions except the opinions of troublemakers on my ignore list who have a history of personal attacks and insults. I will continue to ignore those people because they don't post opinions, they post attacks and insults. This is a matter of record.

threads about the valence of units, factions or strategies are well seen by the team, in most of the times other members learn new things, but everyone has to accept other opinions and the discussion has to be polite

Discussion on my end is always polite until someone personally attacks or insults me. If you want to level an accusation, show me where I was impolite to someone who wasn't impolite to me first.

I doubt you had read the forum rules before starting your arguments here, so please read it prior to posting here again

I didn't need to read them, then or now. You see, I'm always a pleasant guy unless provoked or attacked. That's irrespective of anyone's rules.

Regards,
XSamatan

Now you can go ahead and delete my post, delete the thread so no one can see the real record here, and ban me.

Kindest regards,
Nightmare