Even stupider than "freedom fries" - the other side of the coin

[Hosakawa Tito]

NC preschooler's "unhealthy" lunch replaced with cafeteria nuggets (http://myfox8.com/2012/02/14/nc-preschooler-fed-nuggets-because-packed-lunch-wasnt-healthy/). Liberal fascism on parade. Lunchbox inspections is it? Must be the new "No Child's Behind Left Alone" program.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes, this is a widespread phenomenon of liberal fascism. The actions of this one person surely reveal the hollowness of the entire liberal mindset.

[PanzerJaeger]

I dunno ACIN, it seems like the decision was made in accordance with regulation. Odd, though, that I haven't heard of this before. You would think USDA agents inspecting children's lunches would get more attention.


The West Hoke Elementary School student was in her More at Four classroom when a U.S. Department of Agriculture agent who was inspecting lunch boxes decided that her packed lunch — which consisted of a turkey and cheese sandwich, a banana, apple juice and potato chips — “did not meet USDA guidelines,” the Journal reports.

The decision was made under consideration of a regulation put in place by the the Division of Child Development and Early Education at the Department of Health and Human Services, which requires all lunches served in pre-kindergarten programs to meet USDA guidelines.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I dunno ACIN, it seems like the decision was made in accordance with regulation. Odd, though, that I haven't heard of this before. You would think USDA agents inspecting children's lunches would get more attention.

I do not wish to give the impression that this event is defensible or not stemming from liberal minded policies. Only that the problem involved an individual lacking critical thought, abusing a regulation. This is not an example of a systematic issue caused by liberal meddling. The government agent in question made the wrong (AKA stupid) call and should be fired. Also, home lunches shouldn't be under such scrutiny. That is in my opinion, the sensible thing to do. I imagine that the law in question was not to take over the jobs of mom, but to help give kids who are only given a snack pack and a snickers some nutrition in their meals. To say that this is "liberal fascism", is the kind of blanket, feel good thinking that pisses me off. I see it many times at my uni in the opposite direction, I hate to see it here in the backroom as well.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I do not wish to give the impression that this event is defensible or not stemming from liberal minded policies. Only that the problem involved an individual lacking critical thought, abusing a regulation. This is not an example of a systematic issue caused by liberal meddling.

But it's an entirely predictable result of this kind of liberal meddling--you can't have a policy that just assumes the people enforcing it will be competent. If you are going to regulate you have to take that into account.

[a completely inoffensive name]

But it's an entirely predictable result of this kind of liberal meddling--you can't have a policy that just assumes the people enforcing it will be competent. If you are going to regulate you have to take that into account.

You can't make any policy fool proof. Every time you try, you find yourself facing more advanced fools. The best you can do is hope that such mistakes do not negate the overall benefit the unspoken competent agents provide every day.

As I said, this is not some systematic problem. We have an isolated incident that warranted a single write up by a local news affiliate. To demand for more, seems like an unreasonable demand.

[Kralizec]

The titles (of this thread, and the articles linked) are a bit off. Her lunch wasn't replaced, it was "supplemented" with a lunch tray from the cafetaria. The kid then decided to only eat the nuggets of the tray (not very surprising, I should add)

...not that I endorse lunchbox searching, or whatever.

[Papewaio]

If you want over regulation, stupid rulings and loopholes make a system that assumes you employee fools.

If you want regulation that takes into accoun individual circumstance employee professionals who have the ability, authority and responsibility to make accountable and transparent rulings.

You weight either end of the system, and the results are a natural outcome of which system is chosen.

[a completely inoffensive name]

If you want over regulation, stupid rulings and loopholes make a system that employees fools.

If you want regulation that takes into accoun individual circumstance employee professionals who have the ability, authority and responsibility to make accountable and transparent rulings.

You weight either end of the system, and the results are a natural outcome of which system is chosen.

That seems like an oversimplification. It isn't a choice between making a system that hires fools, or making one that doesn't. The Peter Principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle) comes to mind.

[Strike For The South]

The solution here is simple.

Shoot the Bureaucrat

[Lemur]

Something has gone horribly wrong in North Carolina, clearly. "turkey and cheese sandwich, a banana, apple juice and potato chips" — that is a lunch that must be supplemented? I'm sure I have fed the lemurs less healthy meals than that. And what the hell was a state worker doing inspecting bagged lunches anyway?

North Carolina needs to take a long, hard look at how it's doing business. This sort of thing is, in fact, stupider than freedom fries. And that takes some doing.

-edit-

Clicked-through and found a more detailed version here (http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/homemade-lunch-replaced-with-cafeteria-nuggets.html). So apparently the preschool has a policy of inspecting kids' lunches because of families sending 4-year-olds with nothing but a twinkie and a can of soda. So two thoughts:

(1) The state worker (apparently the person doing this was not a NC employee) preschool employee was wrong, the meal was fine even by North Carolina standards: "[A] spokeswoman for the Division of Child Development said that should not have been a problem. 'With a turkey sandwich, that covers your protein, your grain, and if it had cheese on it, that’s the dairy,' said Jani Kozlowski, the fiscal and statutory policy manager for the division. 'It sounds like the lunch itself would’ve met all of the standard.' The lunch has to include a fruit or vegetable, but not both, she said."

(2) If North Carolina has nutrition mandates for preschools, then there's going to be awkward **** like this happening when a minimum-wage preschool employee has an attack of the stupids. From the more detailed article:

The state regulation reads:

“Sites must provide breakfast and/or snacks and lunch meeting USDA requirements during the regular school day. The partial/full cost of meals may be charged when families do not qualify for free/reduced price meals.

“When children bring their own food for meals and snacks to the center, if the food does not meet the specified nutritional requirements, the center must provide additional food necessary to meet those requirements.”

Still, Kozlowski said, the parents shouldn’t have been charged.

“The school may have interpreted [the rule] to mean they felt like the lunch wasn’t meeting the nutritional requirements and so they wanted the child to have the school lunch and then charged the parent,” she said. “It sounds like maybe a technical assistance need for that school.”

[Vladimir]

NC preschooler's "unhealthy" lunch replaced with cafeteria nuggets (http://myfox8.com/2012/02/14/nc-preschooler-fed-nuggets-because-packed-lunch-wasnt-healthy/). Liberal fascism on parade. Lunchbox inspections is it? Must be the new "No Child's Behind Left Alone" program.

Heard about this this morning. It's just some stupid USDA regulation stupidly enforced by stupid people. Laptop dad is from North Carolina as well.

[Major Robert Dump]

Kind of like a state paying for abortions but making regulations against raw milk production, sale and consumption because it, amongst other things, can be detrimental to the health of fetuses. Here's looking at you New England

[Vladimir]

Kind of like a state paying for abortions but making regulations against raw milk production, sale and consumption because it, amongst other things, can be detrimental to the health of fetuses. Here's looking at you New England

Maryland and Pennsylvania:

http://www.google.com/search?q=maryland+raw+milk&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=maryland+raw+milk&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=QHN&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvnsu&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=BdA7T57PG9HK0AGGiIyzCw&ved=0CDwQqAI&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=4b236621135b55ec&biw=1680&bih=920

And there is some reason behind it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I find it interesting that we have a few big government types in this thread decrying the inability of big government policies to remain effective and fair.

Are you referencing me?

[Hosakawa Tito]

The solution here is simple.

Shoot the Bureaucrat

I believe the happier solution for everyone involved would be not to empower the bureaucrat with such a mandate in the first place. However your earnest desire to correct the abberant behavior is duly noted. Consider a career in law enforcement. :yes:


The titles (of this thread, and the articles linked) are a bit off. Her lunch wasn't replaced, it was "supplemented" with a lunch tray from the cafetaria. The kid then decided to only eat the nuggets of the tray (not very surprising, I should add)

...not that I endorse lunchbox searching, or whatever.

I guess it all depends on how one sees things. The 4 year old was instructed/implied by lunch box inspector that her mother basically doesn't know jack about being a parent. The "guideline" explicitly states that there must be 1 protein,1 dairy, 1 grain, 1 fruit, 1 vegatable portion. You have substituted another fruit for the vegatable portion. That is verbotten! You vill eat the vegatable, und you vill like it! I mean come on, where is Monty Python when you need them. So instead of eating a perfectly fine lunch from home *missing vegatable notwithstanding*, she eats 3 chicken nuggets, unmonitored apparently, and throws the rest away. Every child is different. Some will eat most anything placed before them, others can be finicky as cats. Who knows what is best for ones' own child? Some people seem to think they know what is best for someone elses children and they must all conform to the program. I don't know how long this policy has been in place, but the parents of these children should be holding some politicians feets to the fire till this wrong headed, nanny state crap has been recinded.

You can't make these big government we know what's best for you policies "idiot proof" enough. No matter how well intentioned and reasonable they might start out, there's always "mission creep" sooner or later, and lord knows there's way too many power mad idiots. What's next, no playing on the playground someone might get hurt? School is morphing from a well rounded education to indoctrination.

So what is more insidious? A few hypocrite flag waving ax-grinding politicians wrapping themselves in the flag and talking proud about freedom fries to schmooze for votes from the low hanging fruit of their constituencies, a purely voluntary exercise for those birds of a feather. Or this big government knows best mandated slow erosion of peoples' abilities to think and take responsibility for their own lives and families? I vote for door number 2.

[a completely inoffensive name]

You can't make these big government we know what's best for you policies "idiot proof" enough. No matter how well intentioned and reasonable they might start out, there's always "mission creep" sooner or later, and lord knows there's way too many power mad idiots. What's next, no playing on the playground someone might get hurt? School is morphing from a well rounded education to indoctrination.Bro, you need to tab out of Drudge Report. You ramble about all these power mad idiots abusing this regulation and yet...this was one solitary incident.Way to make a mountain out of a molehill.This a good example of the phrase "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good."

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Bro, you need to tab out of Drudge Report. You ramble about all these power mad idiots abusing this regulation and yet...this was one solitary incident.Way to make a mountain out of a molehill.This a good example of the phrase "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good."

What was your opinion on school testing? I thought you were against them...

People picking out this example as illustrative aren't just basing their opinion on this example alone, but a broader knowledge of how this kind of thing works.

[Xiahou]

Bro, you need to tab out of Drudge Report. You ramble about all these power mad idiots abusing this regulation and yet...this was one solitary incident.Way to make a mountain out of a molehill.This a good example of the phrase "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good."The fact is, no bureaucrat has any business inspecting lunches that parents pack their kids. That alone is outrage enough. Abuses such as this are only the natural extension of the initial overreach.

[a completely inoffensive name]

What was your opinion on school testing? I thought you were against them...

People picking out this example as illustrative aren't just basing their opinion on this example alone, but a broader knowledge of how this kind of thing works.

School testing of what? Like standardized curriculum tests?

Broader knowledge? Of what? The fact that such incidents are talked about more, simply because of the outrage people have over it? I am sure that the people who love to talk about the moral degeneracy of today's society get outraged about all the violent crime and sad news that gets reported everyday. Never mind the fact that violent crime has been going down consistently since the 1990s. It's all a matter of what media or social news sites cherry pick. People then believe that that is what reality is. That in every school across the country there is a bureaucrat waiting to take away your kids lunch. It's paranoia. Increased awareness has made people think there is increased prevalence. You got a country of over 300 million people, and suddenly hearing about some government screw up somewhere once a day has people clamoring about how terrible all this government is.

Now things like No Child Left Behind are systematic. The problems associated with it are seen to be widespread and universal. This lunch thing....hasn't shown that at all. It's a local Fox affiliate from NC writing a 500 word piece on the situation.


The fact is, no bureaucrat has any business inspecting lunches that parents pack their kids. That alone is outrage enough. Abuses such as this are only the natural extension of the initial overreach.

I agree that the regulation in particular is stupid, but don't go around throwing phrases like liberal fascism as if our kids are under attack. I don't want to retype what I just said to Sasaki, but that is what I want to say here as well.

[Lemur]

The "guideline" explicitly states that there must be 1 protein,1 dairy, 1 grain, 1 fruit, 1 vegatable portion. You have substituted another fruit for the vegatable portion. That is verbotten!
I'm gonna ding you for not reading your own thread, Hosa-san. Also, only one "t" in verboten


"[A] spokeswoman for the Division of Child Development said that should not have been a problem. 'With a turkey sandwich, that covers your protein, your grain, and if it had cheese on it, that’s the dairy,' said Jani Kozlowski, the fiscal and statutory policy manager for the division. 'It sounds like the lunch itself would’ve met all of the standard.' The lunch has to include a fruit or vegetable, but not both, she said."


The fact is, no bureaucrat has any business inspecting lunches that parents pack their kids. That alone is outrage enough.
The linked article says it was a state employee, but other reports don't conform to that (http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/homemade-lunch-replaced-with-cafeteria-nuggets.html). Moreover, the North Carolina State responses sure make it sound like the preschool was doing the inspecting, and doing it wrong.


So what is more insidious? A few hypocrite flag waving ax-grinding politicians wrapping themselves in the flag and talking proud about freedom fries to schmooze for votes from the low hanging fruit of their constituencies, a purely voluntary exercise for those birds of a feather. Or this big government knows best mandated slow erosion of peoples' abilities to think and take responsibility for their own lives and families? I vote for door number 2.
Well, if we're going to extrapolate from a misguided preschool to global conclusions, I'll just note that North Carolina is yet another poverty-stricken, welfare-sucking Red state that produces single moms, crystal meth and Republican voters. And us blue states pay for their benefits, while they send their obese, diabetic protesters to scream at Congress about "keep the guvmint out of my medicare!"

See? Gross generalizations can work any way you please. Logical fallacies for everyone!

[Kralizec]

North Carolina is yet another poverty-stricken, welfare-sucking Red state that produces single moms, crystal meth and Republican voters.


:laugh4:

[Hosakawa Tito]

I'm gonna ding you for not reading your own thread, Hosa-san. Also, only one "t" in verboten




The linked article says it was a state employee, but other reports don't conform to that (http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/homemade-lunch-replaced-with-cafeteria-nuggets.html). Moreover, the North Carolina State responses sure make it sound like the preschool was doing the inspecting, and doing it wrong.


Well, if we're going to extrapolate from a misguided preschool to global conclusions, I'll just note that North Carolina is yet another poverty-stricken, welfare-sucking Red state that produces single moms, crystal meth and Republican voters. And us blue states pay for their benefits, while they send their obese, diabetic protesters to scream at Congress about "keep the guvmint out of my medicare!"

See? Gross generalizations can work any way you please. Logical fallacies for everyone!

Actually I gleaned info from several news sources for that paraphrase. Mainstream media sources have failed to report this story, must not fit the agenda. Sorry about verboten, but French isn't my native laguage.
Oh, and you left out gun hugging bible thumpers. How could you? :laugh4:

[Lemur]

Oh, and you left out gun hugging bible thumpers. How could you? :laugh4:
Gah, how could I have missed that? I also should have worked something in about chewing tobacco and underwater subprime mortgages, too. I'm slipping.

[CountArach]

Oh yeah that's right, this was misreported (http://myfox8.com/2012/02/15/usda-meal-was-not-replaced-mom-was-never-charged/):

Bruce Alexander, director of communications and governmental affairs with the USDA, said Wednesday the person inspecting lunches was a “North Carolina Education staff member conducting a review of the child care center.”

The review, which took place on Jan. 30, was part of the state’s ‘Star Rated’ licensing program, Alexander said. The program is designed to provide parents with a rating of child care centers across the state, including the nutritional content of the meals consumed by children.

“A teacher apparently was nervous during this state review and mishandled the situation,” Alexander said.

Alexander also said the mother was never charged for the meal.

“The school thought it had been resolved, apologized to the parent and never charged the parent for a school meal,” he said.

[Vladimir]

Oh yeah that's right, this was misreported (http://myfox8.com/2012/02/15/usda-meal-was-not-replaced-mom-was-never-charged/):

Again, don't let reason interfere with a perfectly legitimate knee-jerk response. The state is trying to hook our children on fried food so they can tax it to fund socialist healthcare that the future adult will be forced to use.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Oh gee, what a surprise.