Which faction should i play as : Epirus Koinon hellenon makedonia ?

[romanip]

I want to play as greek faction which one should i play as i have experienced little bit of romani campaign ?

[The Stranger]

baktria!

if you want in greece hmm i like epeiros. i guess makedone if you like cav and greece if you like infantry :P

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Epirus is the most fun to start with - because its starting army includes Indian elephants! Definite WOW!!! factor! But they'll send your treasury spiralling into heavy debt, so get conquering - fast!

Macedonia is good too. Great starting army, and the mighty walled city of Athens as your first target!

Koinon Hellenon is a nightmare at the start - the Macedonians are stronger and richer than you. Very tough start indeed, best leave them till later if you're still learning.

Some tips you might find useful:

Recommended early blitzing targets for all factions (more detailed for Makedon and KH): https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?124484-A-guide-to-EB-blitzing-for-new-players

"The Dogs of War" a brilliant Epirus AAR by FriendlyFire: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?130854-The-Dogs-of-War-%96-An-Epeiros-Campaign-AAR

"Τhe Anabaseis of the Kings of Makedonia" by Centurio Nixalsverdrus: a equally brilliant Makedonian AAR: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?113368-The-Anabaseis-of-the-Kings-of-Makedonia

"Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter)" a participative AAR (multiple contributors) two links for this one:
Athens viewpoint: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132898-Koinon-Hellenon-Athens-X-Sparta-(-org-X-TWCenter)-a-participative-AAR-Athenai
Sparta viewpoint: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=421899

(I've left the last Greek faction, Baktria, out since you didn't mention them in your post. They're the guys who have the tough job of holding off the Saka and Seleucids while trying to expand into India.)

I've done a noob's guide to Carthage here, in case you're interested: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?127471-Carthage-Detailed-Starting-Guide-for-new-players

[The Stranger]

if you want to know a good blitz opening for koinon i can give you one :P KH is not that hard at all imo. just need to know what to do.

hmm nevermind the KH blitz described in that thread is good! its what i did basically only i sent FM from Sparte along. Not needed on M battle difficulty, definitly recommended on harder ones.

[rickinator9]

I really found Bactria the best greek faction. You start in your own little corner with one province and there's plenty of opportunity to conquer an immense empire.

[Nachtmeister]

Most has already been said above... But maybe I can still add something.

Koinon Hellenon and Epeiros share culture and MICs, Makedonia iirc shares the MICs with the Getai and the culture with Epeiros and KH.
Epeiros starts off at war with Rome and Makedonia and it is somewhat difficult to take on both on the first few turns; you normally have to decide whether to abandon Hellas or southern Italy to conquer the other.
Makedonia is more or less pinned in the middle between Epeiros, KH, Arche Seleukeia, Pontus and the Getai - so I would not recommend playing them unless you want really tough war on all fronts, although I will admit that I have not yet tried them myself for this very reason.
KH starts out in a seemingly difficult but really very favourable position because Makedonia is the only serious enemy at the start and they have their hands full defending against Epeiros. You can make an alliance with Epeiros on the second turn of the game and push Makedonia out of Hellas after they have repelled the Epeirote invasion forces. After that, Epeiros is usually more interested in conquering Illyria than betraying the alliance with you for quite some time which allows you to consolidate your hold on the rich cities.

Obvious long-term decision to make: With KH, you won't have direct phalanx recruitment, period. It takes ages for the MOT to kick in and you might not even want that to happen because leaving the Romans alone for such a long time makes for a really really difficult battle over Italy when you finally do invade (VCs dictate that you do at some point).
On the other hand, KH does not have to defeat AS; you only have to take some of Mikra Asia and you can establish a buffer faction between you and AS afterwards (like, make Ankyra rebel to the Arverni and see to it that they get some more settlements there so you don't share borders with AS or Ptolemaioi. Because, otherwise, the game stops being fun quickly due to full stack attacks every turn from both eastern empires).
In the long term, you get a very interesting unit roster with KH (and the income to support diverse and expensive armies); if you manage to conquer your way up to Kallatis, you will have classical Greeks, Celts, Getai and even Nomads in your armies (after roughly 20 years without money shortages needed to build up the regional MICs and raise population levels to a point where you can use Tylis and Kallatis as recruitment bases). But - no phalanx units. If you want those, don't play KH. By the time KH gets them, they don't make much of a difference anymore and will still be inferior to the elite phalanx units of your enemies.
In the midgame, you can get phalanx units by recruiting mercs and maybe upgrade them with a blacksmith to make them last a bit longer - but you can *not* afford to autocalc every AI spam battle using a phalanx full stack as with the other hellenic factions. Simply because you won't find that many merc phalanx units around.
And one more thing: Infantry generals. Useful in pitched battles because you have a free elite line holder unit; horrible in pitched battles because you have no free heavy cavalry arm that you would need to rout the enemy. For campaign role-playing by moving characters from Babylonia to Lakedaimonia to take the Agoge, infantry generals have considerably shorter movement range per turn... Same issue if you are someone who prefers to keep home territory completely visible by means of watch towers (although you can recruit mercenary cavalry generals for this purpose when you are rolling in cash).
(And regarding rolling in cash, KH has the best ships for achieving naval superiority, the Trieremioliai, effectively a Four at the cost of a Three, give or take 100 Mnai. Apply that to a full stack. Then buy the green ship after maxing the Rhodian naval port. Yes, they can kill even Nees Megistai *very* cost-effectively on VH campaign difficulty in case the AI should ever recruit any of those.)

Epeiros has better stamina on the bodyguard cavalry than Makedonia (and slightly lower armour, but I think the stamina counts for much more because it means you can charge and retreat and repeat more often and the more often you can do that with deadly hetairoi, the greater your fun and the lower the enemy head count and the fewer your overall casualties before the enemy army mass routs). Epeiros can recruit indian elephants in the starting capital in the middle of europe; no other faction gets them anywhere near, not even after conquering Epeiros. Same point as with the cavalry - faster routing of enemy armies, less casualties to your own armies, longer campaigns in hostile territory without as much need for tight supply lines.

Makedonia ---- ^^ I just don't like Makedonia that much. Sorry, I don't know any advice for Makedonia.

I recommend you try Koinon Hellenon ;)
But I will admit that I am positively in love with the Pegasos faction, so I am a bit biased.

[athanaric]

It also depends on your preferred fighting style. For example, Antigonid Makedonia relies a lot on the combined arms principle that was implemented by Philipp II and Alexander III. Which means lots of powerful specialist units, and a focus on rather chess-like, methodical warfare.
If you prefer a faction that can develop in any direction and can field any unit type in the game, the Arche Seleukeia is your candidate. Ptolemaioi and Epeiros are slightly more toned down versions. (These three factions also make extensive use of non-Greek ethnic groups and their respective fighting styles - Epeiros has Italic and Illyrian elements, the AS has a major Iranian/Persian component, and the Ptolies rely on Egyptian (duh), Celtic, and Ethiopian units).
Baktria is somewhat similar to the AS but with an even bigger focus on Iranian and Indian units, and also some steppe elements, to the point that actual "Greeks" are a minority in their ranks. Also the best cavalry roster of any Hellenistic faction.
Koinon Hellenon is of course the "most Greek" faction and focuses much on heavy spearmen, but it also has other quality units of many different categories. If you like manipular tactics better than syntagma warfare, the KH or Epeiros is a good choice. Also, the KH has manly foot bodyguards.


If we describe a faction's characteristics on the battle map along certain parameters, we get something like this:
Makedonian combined arms warfare: Makedonia > AS/Epeiros > Ptolemaioi > Baktria > KH (only one kind of phalangites)
Hoplite warfare: KH > everybody else
"Roman-style" Manipular warfare: KH/Epeiros > Ptolemaioi/AS > Baktria > Makedonia (no Thorakitai)
Cavalry strength and/or versatility: Baktria (plays like an Iranian faction) > AS > Makedonia > Ptolemaioi/Epeiros > KH (still good, though)



Koinon Hellenon and Epeiros share culture and MICs, Makedonia shares the factional MIC with Baktria and the culture and regional MIC with Epeiros and KH. Fixed. Getai are "twins" with Swêboz, sharing culture and both MICs.

Their efficient ships notwithstanding, KH is the weakest of these factions on the strategic level, because it is sorely lacking in buildings that provide a law bonus. KH Temples provide +10% law at maximum and estates actually deduct some. Colonies and garrisons will only grant +5% law each for this faction. A fully upgraded KH city will at most have as much "public order due to law" as a fully upgraded Swêboz city (!). This is more of an annoyance than a problem though, because the economy buildings will churn out so much that you'll still be rolling in cash, unless you garrison all your cities with a Spartan full stack.


Bottom line: if you like Saba or Suebi, you'll like the KH. If you like Pahlava, you'll like Baktria. If you like Romans, you'll like Epeiros. If you like sheep, you'll like Epeiros, too.

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

I'm playing a Makedonian campaign (again). However I have modded my EB slightly, namely reducing shield values for the phalagitai and adjusting the various stat oversights (?); so my advice may not entirely apply to your game.

The Antigonid Makedonian dynasty essentially retains the original Alexandrian Army of Makedonia, plus a few (very painful) lessons learned from the Galatian invasion. The last 50 years of civil wars, keltoi invasions and rampant hellenistic colonialism has essentially depleted Hellas of manpower. This is especially the case for Makedonia, which explains why all their cities are depleted 'large towns'. Epeiros and the rebellious Poleis-krate are not your true enemies, nor are your hellenistic rivals (not yet at least). Your real problem is man power and population, and will be as such for many years to come.

Now, it is very tempting for you to crank up the tax rate to fund your various fronts in war. You should, for the moment. Quickly use your starting cash to bolster Pella's defences, send reinforcements from Thessaly. There's a 50/50 chance that the Epirote will attack Pella on the first turn, with elephantes. Use missles. Javelins, flaming arrows and sling bullets. You should be able to make them go amok before they bash the gate open. Even if they do, they'll still likely run amok before being able to charge in. I got lucky and the elephants went amok just as they bashed open my gate, so all their troops had to run through rampaging elephants to get to the gate....and into my pikes. That decimated Pyrrhos' army.

That would probably not happen to you. The best you can hope for is that you either drive their siege away, or they ignore you altogether and bother the Illyrians. If you play of Bi or Alex, there's a small chance (more likely on Alex) that he'll actually ship his army back to Taras (in a true Pyrrhic fashion) and have another go at the Romaioi Barbaroi (and win). That's bad news in the long run, but gives you breathing room for the time being. Therefore, aside from the Epeirotes, your northern borders are generally safe enough for you to use the majority (and expensive) forces to squash the KH rebellion. Take on the Spartan Armies with all you got in Korinthos, siege Sparte and make them attack you. Show them the terror of your mighty world-dominating sarrisae. Use your other army (the one with the galatians) to take Athens. Siege or assault, either works. Remember, do not enslave.

Now Antharic has rightfully mentioned that Makedonia uses a combined arms approach. However, that is for much later. You simply do not have the manpower, nor the cash to afford any of that. After the first 3 turns of mayhem, you should quickly make peace with everyone, except for Epeiros (they would not accept, anyways). The money you got from tearing down the KH MICs should give you a little something to build up some economic buildings. Muster all your remaining troops from the KH campaign, lower all taxes, and quickly retake Serdike. The Agrianikoi are fanatically loyal to Makedonia, best to repay them by killing their rebel rivals and taking their mines. Again, siege or assault, depending on your ability. I would advise against further depleting the population in Pella and Demetria via recruitment and retraining (especially on Huge). Instead, draw manpower from Korinthos and Athens. Later on, with mines set up bolster your levies with mercs. Either way, take Tylis as well. Bolster whatever men you have left from the northern expedition and retake Byzantion. Keep the army there. You may disband and settle some of them, but Byzantion will be your gate keeper against AS.

In a few years time you should be swimming in cash. Use that cash to hire mercs to take the fight to the Epeiros. Basically, you won't be able to afford the men to field a proper factional Alexandrian army for quite some time. Mercs, hoplites from your allied greeks and barbaroi will be the bulk of the forces for some time to come. Thueroporoi are you friend. They are excellent medium infantry. Use them with Hoplites and those wonderful Thraikioi mercs. I find that the Illyrians, keltoi and thraikioi tend to breed faster than those in Pella and Demetreias. If you really want to field a (ie ONE) proper hammer and anvil army earlier, you may resettle some thracians into makedonia by recruiting levies and disbanding them in Pella. If I remember correctly, the Antigonids historically did exactly that.

With Hellas united, and a VERY diverse set of allies to draw troops from, you are virtually free to do anything you want. You may take the fight to the Getai and take their lucrative mines; liberate (again) the hellenic cities of Mikra Asia from those decadent proskynesis botherers; or show the Romaioi Barbaroi (if the Epeirotes didn't get to them first) who are the civilized lot. I personally went up and pushed the Getai further up north, then took a ship full of booty-loving thracians for a Mediterranean cruise. I reduced Sidon and Jerusalem to rubble, destroyed the MICs and ports in Antiocheia, and gave them all to the Ptolemaioi.

[Nachtmeister]

Mmmm, hot thread, two posts while I was busy writing mine. Here's my take on blitzing with KH:

Numbers=turns, and play on huge unit sizes so your garrisons are cost-effective for keeping peace at high or very high taxes.

1.)
move spy into Kydonia (Krete).
Attack and occupy, leave 1 unit, move rest to Pelloponesos with the fleet (don't forget the spy), disband fleet at Athenai port.
Recruit Hippakontistai at Athenai, move entire garrison including Chremonides to siege Chalkis (the Hippakontistai will hold Athenai when the turn ends).
Move Spartan garrison and army to siege Korinthos.
Don't worry about the Makedonian full stack and other units around greece - they *will* move all the way up to Pella to defend against Epeiros. Unless you leave Athenai empty with no recruitment underway maybe.
Send diplomat to Ambrakia (he needs 2 turns to get there).
Recruit a unit of Slingers in Sparte.
Disband all units in Rhodos.
If you are feeling very capable, disband the unit of Hoplitai at Athenai; it is a bit expensive for this bit of the campaign and with proper missile use and clever bodyguard and Hoplitai Haploi use, you do not necessarily need Hoplitai just yet.

2.)
Conquer Korinthos and Chalkis with the sieging armies. Do Korinthos first and save before the battle: You need your generals for the wall fight and in case one of them should fall off the wall which rarely happens, you want to be able to re-load and re-do the battle. A bit lame and exploitive, but blitzing always is.
After conquests, move everything to Athenai for retraining (except maybe a unit or two of Akontistai for Korinthos and whatever you don't immediately need for Chalkis as garrisons).
Recruit a unit of Peltasts in Sparte.
Recruit a unit of Hoplitai Haploi in Athenai.
Move diplomat to Ambrakia, quicksave, propose alliance and demand money; results vary and in case bargaining starts, reduce your demands by 100 Mnai increments at first, then after 3-4 exchanges reduce in 500 Mnai increments --- in my case, they settled for roughly 2000 Mnai, but in EB 1.1 they would give as much as 6000 Mnai. You desperately need that money at the start.

General note: keep your Akontistai out of fights, even missile duels. They are great garrison troops due to their numbers, but you don't want to drain your populations by losing them in battles.

3.)
Leave Demetrias alone for now because otherwise the Makedonian full stack will reconsider marching to Pella at this point and instead proceed to crush your ragtag offensive force or at least make you win a very Pyrrhic victory and lose forward momentum... - Move for Thermon instead, with at least 1 spartan FM (you need the Spartiatai Hoplitai to pull this off). Army: 2-4x Slingers, depending on how many you can get there in time, 1-2x Peltastai, 1x Hippakontistai, 2-3x Hoplitai Haploi. In case you kept them instead of disbanding them, take the Kretan merc archers from the Kretan starting army along as well.

At this point, it gets a bit fuzzy; I took Thermon by turn 5.) in my current campaign, I think after making the defenders sally, thinking my army was weak.
It works like this: pause immediately when battle is finished loading, abandon any siege equipment. Rush for the gate with the heaviest unit (Spartiatai Hoplitai), form a defensive diagonal line.... This would take too long to explain. Have a look - here:

38913892

Obviously, this is a terrible exploit of AI stupidity and it only works for low wood walls and with the battle time limit disabled. The second picture is for when the enemy doesn't come out (like, fighting a battle where a spy has opened the gates for you, or in case you play Epeiros, elephants); you need to shoot missiles at them until they leave the desired place behind the wall for the Spartans and the path from the gate to there clear for a moment, then rush inside and take position, hit backspace once when you are where you want to be and let them come. Always take the right corner to have the enemy shield side away from your missiles (and yours on the side of your missiles against any stray shots).
When the Slingers eventually run out of ammo, you can probably just rush 1-2 units of Peltasts through the gate and attack the enemy's rear as they will be very exhausted from pushing against the Spartans by now. They will drop like flies to a rear attack and quickly mass rout; at this point, you send in the Hippakontistai.

(This is also how you take Kydonia on turn 1, except that you use Toxotai Kretikoi instead of slingers and end up having to use your Spartans in offense because the enemy tends to camp on the city square and you would lose an archer duel because they have 2 units of Toxotai Kretikoi.
Always allow your Spartans to rest before moving to the next attack phase; you always want to have them as fresh as possible to keep casualties at a minimum.)

Following this line of abuse, you can take Demetrias by turn 7, wait for the defensive full stack to leave Pella open to an attack; they either start fighting Epeiros, move to take Serdike (the Eleutheroi settlement in the north) or, in the worst case, they come back down to you to take back Demetrias, in which case you have to just gather your bodyguards and all the levies and as many Peltasts as you can muster and meet them in a grand battle.

...

It is generally worthwhile to take Serdike yourself and build mines there quickly; in my current campaign I moved from Pella to Serdike to Tylis to Kallatis (if you take it with a spy and instant battle, the Getai will not declare war; I role-play this as just moving through to rally the local populace to the common Greek cause) and finally to Naissos, the settlement north of Serdike, then set up forts with 1 unit of Toxotai each on my side at all fords across the danube river to discourage the Getai (allies) from crossing it.

A very useful army composition for taking Eleutheroi settlements that have a reasonably normal garrison force is
1x Bodyguard
1x Hippakontistai
2x Hoplitai Haploi
2x Peltastai
(2x Akontistai, optional, for extra javelin hail and to be left behind as a garrison with the Hoplitai Haploi to keep the peace in the newly occupied area)
2x Sphendonetai
It will cost roughly 1600-2000 Mnai upkeep, enabling you to either field multiple conquest forces or to engage in expensive building projects during expansion and leave financial room for a small fleet that will be able to hold up against occasional attacks at sea, giving you much needed superior mobility.
Also, this kind of army composition is not historically entirely outrageously unrealistic, I think.

Taking Byzantion is not necessarily a good idea at this point since it will force you to move on into Mikra Asia because the Seleukids and Pontos will both inevitably try to take it. But that depends on your long term strategy. I decided to leave it for the moment, tech up the MICs at Athenai, Korinthos, Sparte, Demetrias and Pella (this gives you access to fully armored Hoplitai, Hippeis Xystophoroi:skull: and Hetairoi Aspidophoroi at lvl3) and send an army for Syrakousai in the mean time which gives you a thoroughly solid base to conquer Sicily and Italy and a healthy amount of sea trade income once you have done this. If you are fast enough, Epeiros might even help you fight the Romans in Italy, if they still have Taras at this point.
This way, Makedonia and Pontos get into a war with Arche Seleukeia; if Makedonia gets the upper hand, they might even prepare the area for you by building western greek culture buildings in the settlements there while you are busy fighting the Romans and taking the Qarthadastim islands in the west.

If you decide to focus east instead, take all of Mikra Asia quickly and establish a chokepoint for Seleukid attacks at Mazaka, get the Ptolemaioi out of there quickly, preferably by making their towns rebel to AS with spies, and raid Antiocheia to destroy the elite recruitment base there. No matter what else happens, you do not want a war with both the Ptolemaioi and Arche Seleukeia at the same time. You can win even then, but it perverts a roleplaying-intense, very gratifying campaign into an abysmal slogging frenzy. Hey they don't even bother to send *pretty* armies - they just *SPAM!!!* you with levies, elites, levies again, some more elites, then a full stack of elites in some corner where it just doesn't feel right, then they ally with their mortal enemies and try sending 20+ three-unit-stacks of skirmisher cavalry and slingers to pointlessly siege your fortified core settlements... In case this fate befalls you as KH, at least you have access to nomadic Horse Archers from Kallatis.
This is the one reason why phalanx factions can make the difference between getting bored with a campaign and starting a new one or taking the entire world: you can use phalanx fullstacks and auto-calc such pest "battles". As KH, you have to try to always have a powerful but supply-independant (Horse Archer) army in their heartland and exterminate their spam at it's source. But you have to do it manually, without auto-calc. Unless you use the auto_win cheat, which I have found to rapidly deflate any motivation to continue. Cheating spoils the fun. Then again, HA battles are fun...

For the general purpose of making settlements rebel, it is a good idea to have at least one megale agora somewhere (the 10 season market building), to train spies and give them a powerful retinue. In case you find yourself at the wrong end of the eastern hellenic spam, you will also want to have powerful assassins to get rid of randomly spawned Hetairoi (yes, the AI can just make-it-so and gain a man-of-the-hour general anywhere anytime).

Umm... So once again, I strongly recommend giving KH a try; after you establish yourself in Hellas, you will be rolling in cash and can afford to play around with varying armies, maybe role-play a new Xenophon expedition or just once more unite the Greek cities across the seas under a grand Athenian - or Spartan - or Korinthian or maybe even Rhodian empire, you can also role-play the KH as the loose alliance of several factions with their own armies and agendas each that it historically was.

[Nachtmeister]

If we describe a faction's characteristics on the battle map along certain parameters, we get something like this:
Makedonian combined arms warfare: Makedonia > AS/Epeiros > Ptolemaioi > Baktria > KH (only one kind of phalangites)
Hoplite warfare: KH > everybody else
"Roman-style" Manipular warfare: KH/Epeiros > Ptolemaioi/AS > Baktria > Makedonia (no Thorakitai)
Cavalry strength and/or versatility: Baktria (plays like an Iranian faction) > AS > Makedonia > Ptolemaioi/Epeiros > KH (still good, though)


Fixed. Getai are "twins" with Swêboz, sharing culture and both MICs.

Their efficient ships notwithstanding, KH is the weakest of these factions on the strategic level, because it is sorely lacking in buildings that provide a law bonus. KH Temples provide +10% law at maximum and estates actually deduct some. Colonies and garrisons will only grant +5% law each for this faction. A fully upgraded KH city will at most have as much "public order due to law" as a fully upgraded Swêboz city (!). This is more of an annoyance than a problem though, because the economy buildings will churn out so much that you'll still be rolling in cash, unless you garrison all your cities with a Spartan full stack.


Bottom line: if you like Saba or Suebi, you'll like the KH. If you like Pahlava, you'll like Baktria. If you like Romans, you'll like Epeiros. If you like sheep, you'll like Epeiros, too.

Thank you Athanaric! I stand corrected.

And regarding the part about law buildings - it would then seem that the KH is less adjusted for taking the entire campaign map and more for taking a limited portion of it - for example, the KH version of Katoikai (sp?) gives a comparatively reduced or no law bonus but a certain trade bonus instead that the AS and Ptolemaioi versions lack. In a limited area around the Capital, where corruption is not very strong, KH cities would create a higher income than any other faction could, right...?

*EDIT* - And ROFL about the sheep. */EDIT*

*EDIT2* - Basileus, now suddenly I feel an urge to give a Makedonian Campaign a try... You paint an awesome picture there. */EDIT2*

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

Oh yes, I tend to do a lot of historical research to augment my roleplaying. i try to balance an equilibrium with pure game technicality and historical plausibility. it's a slightly less blitz-like play-style in a gameplay perspective, but ambitious in terms of historical politics and expansion (nowhere near like Megas Alexandros, Basileus ton Basileon; he was basically a real life blitzer). It's something I've learnt from good old Maion Maroneios, who sadly left the forums a good while ago...

[Nachtmeister]

It's something I've learnt from good old Maion Maroneios, who sadly left the forums a good while ago...

I am venturing off topic here, but --- Maion, gone? Why?? It has been a while since I read a post from him around here, but I have been away from EB myself for some time between 2010 and 2011, only occasionally lurking every two or four months and only very recently becoming active on the org again, so I presumed it would be similar with several people I had met then and he would eventually re-emerge in glory somewhere. But what you are saying sounds somewhat final...
To your point, I have to agree, his posts were often quite inspiring.

[seleucid empire]

If we describe a faction's characteristics on the battle map along certain parameters, we get something like this:
Makedonian combined arms warfare: Makedonia > AS/Epeiros > Ptolemaioi > Baktria > KH (only one kind of phalangites)
Hoplite warfare: KH > everybody else
"Roman-style" Manipular warfare: KH/Epeiros > Ptolemaioi/AS > Baktria > Makedonia (no Thorakitai)
Cavalry strength and/or versatility: Baktria (plays like an Iranian faction) > AS > Makedonia > Ptolemaioi/Epeiros > KH [SIZE=1](still good, though)[/SIZ

Wait, why is AS worse than makedon in combined arms tactic. AS can recruit all of the factional hellenistic units, cavalry (including Thessalonian cav) , and thracian units which the macedonians can (provided you invade the balkans) . AS also has thoratkai, cats, TABs and galatians. the only units macedon can recruit which AS cannot are the agranian assualt troops and the hoplite levies (which arent much of a problem since you can recruit proper hoplites with lvl 3 local MIC)

[The Stranger]

imo AS > all except perhaps baktria because they get a kickass FM :P

but anyway Pheraspidai aka Makedonian Peltasts > Thorakitai, but TAB > ALL so again the AS win it :P

KH only have epilektoi and they lose to Hypaspistai one on one, but i guess epilektoi are the cavalry stoppers, tho if you have Argyraspidai god knows why you would need epilektoi...

[romanip]

Thank you very much ! the amount of information is overwhelming you guys have put me off Makedonia so it stands between KH and Epirus ?

[Sapper]

I want to play as greek faction which one should i play as i have experienced little bit of romani campaign ?

As a fan of the Hellenic and Diadochi factions I would say that the answer is of course all of them!

Sticking with the three factions in Hellas, and trying to decide which to play first, I would say that the great thing is that they are sufficiently different to make the choice difficult. Personally I prefer Makadonia but I have had enormous fun with both KH and Epeiros campaigns.

I particularly like Makadonia because of their range of phalangites, the chrome added by having a Royal Family, with the associated Royal Guard units, and the role playing that that allows. I think Nachtmeister is wrong about Makadonia, its pretty easy and not surrounded by enemies; you have got to take on KH and Epeiros of course but you can get a ceasefire with the the Getai from the off and an alliance later. If you stay out of Asia Minor the AS, Ptolomaioi and Pontos leave you alone for ages. Clear out Hellas and then build up your ecomnomy and population while awaiting the "March of Time" reform and Makadonia has a really strong base for world conquest (anything Alexander the Great can do, so can you...!). Furthermore the wide recruiting area of the post reform Hysteroi Pezhetairoi make expansion of the Makadonian empire easier than with either KH or Epeiros.

I like Epeiros because of the Elephants which are so useful in taking Pella and Demetrias early on and great later in the game when you can afford to recruit them. Having a Royal Family is good for role playing too but starting out with King Pyrrus is great. I generallly concentrate on securing Hellas first, which usually means loosing Taras to the Romani. But I always go back and liberate Taras as soon as I can and fighting the Romani early on is good fun. It has no penalty for Epeiros as they are not effected by the "March of Time", unlike Makadonia and the KH. However, recruiting of some of the key units for Epeiros is more limited geographically than Makadonia so expansion of the empire is more difficult and more reliant on regional troops.

Koinon Hellenon is quite different, without phalangites to start with and with infantry family members. There is a real challenge to fighting with a KH army particularly for someone like me so use to the hammer and anvil (Hy Cav and Phalangite) Makadonian tactcs and I like that. Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx, Hellenic Distinguished Hoplites and Spartan Hoplites are awesome, but do have a slightly restricted recruiting area (very restricted in the case of the Spartans of course!). Without a Royal Family the whole faction leader thing is a bit more difficult to role play but I try and keep track of the head of the various factions within the faction. ie. Spartan, Athenian, Rhodian etc. but its a bit more convoluted. Destroying the Romani too early will of course stop the "March of Time" reform happening and the KH will then not get their Greek Phalanx, which aren't bad, almost up to Pezhetairoi standard (slightly better defence but worse morale). Overall, just like Epeiros, expansion of the empire is more difficult and more reliant on regional troops.

You will want to play each of them so it doesn't really matter which you do first! You decide.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

It's not very heroic, but abandoning Taras to the Romans really helps with Epirus' early cashflow problem. Destroying every building in that city gets you a lot of money that can help pay off your debt. And the Romans have to build its infrastructure up again from scratch. Scorched earth tactic.

[athanaric]

the only units macedon can recruit which AS cannot are the agranian assualt troops and the hoplite levies (which arent much of a problem since you can recruit proper hoplites with lvl 3 local MIC)
And the heavy phalanx.

BTW, AS can't recruit Haploi? I've never noticed before. Then again, I never played an AS campaign in EB.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

That is not a very nice way to treat your friends who ask for your help, destroying all their civic works and public buildings. Don't abandon Taras to the Roman scum, just man the walls and wait for Pyrrhus to triumphantly return.

@ Athanaric, none of the eastern Greek factions can recruit Haploi. A team member mentioned this was because they would rather that native greeks serve in the phalanx, yet they can't recruit Deuteroi either and Pantadapoi Phalanx are unrecruitable in Greece. Makes for a silly situation with no levies available save for Psioli.

[Arjos]

Nvm confused them with the Thureophoroi in the recruitment viewer (I hardly read the english names XD)...

[Ca Putt]

adressing the starting positions:

Makedonia:
You have a house however there are a bunch of lunatics in the basement attempting to burn your house down and a Maniac with a chainsaw on the porch. However there is a small garden plot in the next town(Lesbos)

KH:
You're house has been occupied by some rich Kids, they have set up a Meth-lab in the kitchen, sleep in the livingroom and take a dump in the front garden. luckily you own a small garden plot + bank account in swizerland(Rhodos)

Epeiros:
You own a cottage just outside town, however you have planted some tomatoes in the garden of the guy who lives across a little river and are currently running amok in some dudes house.

So in essence all three start quite precarious, whereas once you repell the first wave and take what is "yours", your situation is not only solid but also very profitable.
when you're over this phase the real problems are just beginning (ok no not really^^) with new enemies emerging.
For Makedon and Epeiros that bascially means all your neighbors
For KH this means everyone else :/ as they suffer from several scripts that make you declare war against people who attack certain eleutheroi cities.

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

I'd like to augment the idea that as Makedonia, and certainly Epeiros or KH, you don't -have- to take the fight to the AS and Ptolemaioi. Why bother grinding yourself in a massive 50+ year old civil war along with discontented natives? Let them cling on to their pieces of Alexandro's old ambitions. You can continue Megas Alexandro's dream instead!

Into the west! Subdue those Keltoi! Civilize the Roman tribesmen! Teach them the greatness of being Civilized! There's the Karchedoi, too. They (allegedly) sent ships to aid Tyre during Alexandro's siege. Go, punish them for that!

[moonburn]

dropping taras = dropping 75% of your entire population :| how can that make it easyer ?

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

dropping taras = dropping 75% of your entire population :| how can that make it easyer ?

Giving up Taras (only when threatened with a far superior Roman army, of course!) allows Epirus to concentrate its full strength against Macedon, and kick them out of Greece completely. If either you or KH take Korinthos and Chalkis, that will leave the Macedonians with only Mytilene. (After which the Macedonians will take Pergamon from the Eleutheroi, and become a 'Pergamon' faction in Asia Minor, which will end up fighting Pontos, Koinon Hellenon, the Seleucids, and the Ptolemies.)

Epirus then effectively becomes the new Macedon. Pella and Demetrias are worth more than Taras.

Of course, it would be nice for Epirus to do all that and still hold Taras as well! But often, Epirus isn't strong enough to do both things at once, and Macedon is the greater threat to the Epirote homeland.

[Nightmare]

just to throw my 2 cents into the fray, since i've played a lot of campaigns in greece.

if you are a beginner, KH will be a monstrously difficult start (at least if you play on VH/M). unless you are a veteran at RTW i would advise putting this campaign on hold until you get more experience. of course you could still try if you think you are up to the challenge, and there are a few who claim this campaign is "easy" (cough) - like the stranger.

the problem with KH is that makadonia is all over you like white on rice from the very get-go with more troops that are higher quality than what you have, and you simply don't have the economy or manpower to deal with it. in fact you are in serious jeapordy of losing athens and sparta no matter how hard you fight and no matter how many battles you win and no matter how heroically you win them. i think a few players who claim this campaign is "easy" (cough) get lucky because i presume epieros sometimes assaults makadonia with everything they have and takes their important cities and destroys many makadonian stacks. but i'm not a lucky player, and that never happens with my campaigns.

of course, i wouldn't be surprised if one or more players have extensively "gamed out" the KH start and know exactly what to do at exactly what time to abuse whatever idiosyncracies pop up and somehow manage a painless start, but unless you read one of their game guides on how to do it (and how much fun is that?), i wouldn't count on an easy campaign (of course i played the campaign specifically because it DIDN'T look easy, so it depends on what you're after).

i have played 2 epieros campaigns - one where i abandoned italy from the get-go and concentrated on greece, and the other where i abandoned greece initially and concentrated on italy. either way it was easy (VH difficulty settings of course). for whatever reason (pick your explanation - better starting units, better starting position, etc) the makadonians simply can't threaten you and push you around like they can if you play KH. you can go toe to toe with them without any gimmicks, trickery, misdirection, or anything else, and you can win straight up. with KH it required extreme finesse on my part to deal with the makadonians.