Gaesatae and Tindanotae.

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

They're crazy, choppy, fearless, drunkards, and they take drugs.

What I'd like to know, though, is what sort of psychoactive chemicals did they consume, to give them '2hp' in battle? I suspect at least 2 different chemicals here, one to drive them into a frenzy(cheap Australian beer + football? :clown:) , another to dull their pain(some poppy based extract?).

Any ideas?

[NoHelmet]

Amanita Muscaria, a common european mushroom is known to have psychoactive substances. It is, allegedly, used by siberian shamans in some weird rituals. Also, apparently those shrooms are much more potent as you go south, as there was a case of some russian soldiers that god waaaaay too worked up in Bosnia, there were fatalities due to consumation.

[Frtigern]

I don't believe it was that mushroom. I know people who've taken it and getting into a frenzy and bloodthirsty is not what happened. They got nauseous, they felt they were not in their bodies, could barely stand up or talk right, and had amazing hallucinations while their eyes were closed. I am more of the impression it was alcohol. Mead and beer, both of which could be produced in abundance at the time. I will also not rule out Cannabis. A less potent wild strain does grow in the northern reaches called Cannabis Ruderalis but trade could've brought Middle Eastern hash into Europe, which was a concentration of Cannabis Indica west of the Hindu Kush. With C. Ruderalis the best way to get 'high' is to burn the whole plant over a fire in a closed space (tent, cave) and breathe in the smoke. It has the effect of lessening one's sensitivity to pain.

[Vilkku92]

Doesn't both cannabis and alcohol sort of slow down your reflexes as well as weaken your motoric skills? After all, those two things aren't exactly what you would want if you were going to battle, so...

[KyodaiSteeleye]

of course, they may have just been psychotic...

[Frtigern]

Doesn't both cannabis and alcohol sort of slow down your reflexes as well as weaken your motoric skills? After all, those two things aren't exactly what you would want if you were going to battle, so...

Alcohol lowers inhibitions and gives you that liquid courage to do things you might not do while not drunk. Cannabis increases certain senses and lessons the effect of pain. While both may slow you down, it doesn't stop you.

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

wouldn't one's reflexes slow down though? so we'll have drunken muppets waving and yelling instead of the mad killing you'd expect of a proper respectable Gaesatae...

[Nachtmeister]

Wasn't the historical outcome of the battles against the Romans that they got badly beaten?
So I don't see why they should not have been inhibited by the stuff they took.

And then, there's army dynamics to be accounted for. Even against a drunk guy, it is difficult to just stab through a thureos shield and as long as the battle line remained intact, there would not have been many ways around the thureoi of the Gaesatae as there were a lot of them fighting side by side, each warding off the opposite Roman gladius, and they did have a certain technical advantage with their offensive weapons (gallic longswords), so the Romans would not have been just concentrating on getting a poke in, they would have also been very much occupied with not getting their skulls split down to the neck... After all, drunk or hallucinating as they might have been, man for man the Gaesatae were considerably (enough so for the Romans to attest great physical shape to them in their own history scrolls) stronger, taller and they had longer arms than the legionaries.
Longer arms and longer weapons. Length does tend to have a heavy influence on chances for hitting an opponent without getting hit and it weighs heavier when both are inhibited by having to stay in the protective formation (for the Gaesatae, at least roughly around the rest of the angry crowd) to not get carved to ribbons from all sides.

I am not sure if the 2 hitpoints are not maybe a bit of an overstatement though. The kind of injuries that were caused by a gladius would normally be fatal after a very short time. Even if you are enabled to fight on instead of squirming on the ground after you get your entrails spilled, the blood also spills and

-if the Aorta is punctured (deep stab in the belly), you lose consciousness within seconds because the blood literally drains out of the body, first of all out of the brain as it is the highest part...
-if the kidneys or liver get hit, unpretty much the same, just a bit slower, maybe a minute
-if the lungs get punctured, it is very quickly over - no breathing, no oxygen, and also, punctured lungs collapse quickly, especially if it's from a gladius that happened into the ribcage, and when they do, they squeeze and obstruct the Aorta... Even if the rest of circulation would still work (which I doubt), the legs would collapse.
-And a stab to the belly with an upward angle would puncture the stomach, possibly also the heart. Now with strong pain resistance, the body would continue to function for a while with a punctured stomach, but when the heart takes a hit, it is over even faster than with an aorta breach.

Then again, the way the engine works, it is probably the best solution with the 2 hitpoints... It's accurate when they are fighting in a good battle line but less accurate in a chaotic mess of a battle such as if they are surrounded on all sides on a town square and just not dropping. Imho.

[Lysimachos]

The system with two hitpoints is not perfect, but with our abilities I think it is the best possible representation of the difference between becoming incapacitated by a relatively minor wound and fighting on until receiving a lethal one.

[Nachtmeister]

The system with two hitpoints is not perfect, but with our abilities I think it is the best possible representation of the difference between becoming incapacitated by a relatively minor wound and fighting on until receiving a lethal one.

I feel like maybe I came across more criticizing than I meant to. Yes, I agree that the current system is probably the best solution with the RTW engine. ... The EB team is sheer awesome and would be so regardless of what I think about hitpoints anyway.

What I meant with my initial statement about the hitpoints was something like this -
The only way to further "tweak" the Gaesatae would be giving them 1.5 hitpoints or so, which can't be done, and any workaround would involve giving all units multiple hitpoints and then tweaking around with those (all currently 1 hp units: 2, gaesatae: 3, other current multiple hp units - more, but unknown how many exactly to re-establish proper balance), but besides taking forever, this would cause new issues, like prolonging battles or spoiling the effects of elephants and chariots and probably giving computers a lot more workload to calculate, crashing more games and the battles and units are nicely balanced as they are now.
And I am not very knowledgeable about code and modding and programming, so my point is kinda moot because all of this was no doubt allready taken into consideration a long time ago and by people who are much more capable.
Please take it as a random thought, not criticism.

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

....so what exactly did they take before battle? shrooms?

[Blxz]

there were fatalities due to consumation.

Despite the interesting thread I couldn't get over this post. Maybe he means 'consumption' but the word consummation to my mind makes me think of consummating a marriage. This must have been some wild action for fatalities to occur. :inquisitive:

[Frtigern]

wouldn't one's reflexes slow down though? so we'll have drunken muppets waving and yelling instead of the mad killing you'd expect of a proper respectable Gaesatae...

For a green conscripted warrior taking drugs would slow their reflexes, but for a battle-hardened warrior used to wielding sword and shield all his life, he may take drugs just to make battle more interesting and death in battle more glorious! We also got to take into account the tolerance of certain cultures of intoxicating substances. If they grew up around them and used them now and then, they would know how different dosages have different effects. Take a three beer buzz vs ten shots within an hour buzz. But then body chemistry and genetics come into play. Some people feel drunk after one drink if they are not regular drinkers. Same with cannabis. Different alcohols also give you different "buzzes" or effects. The difference comes from the inherent properties of the substance that was fermented, like grapes compared to malted barley. If you came from a culture that drank beer or mead on a daily basis as much as you drank water and lived your life to only fight and die, using alcohol in excess would not slow them down much. Take rugby fans, they may put down more beer in a single afternoon than some people do all month, but still be able to pay attention to a rugby match, while that light drinker would be passed out after a few rounds of fast, heavy drinking.

[Intranetusa]

I just buffed their attack, armor, and def and lowered their HP to 1. They still maul everyone in melee :D

[Alrik]

I'm not so sure the substance is that big a part here, I think it could be a genetic and/or cultural thing.

I've gone "bezerk" a few times in my life, not the type you say in common language, as in raving mad hitting and screaming and whatnot. This was totally different, sure I was angry, really freaking angry, but still in full control. I know what an adrenaline rush is too, this is not it, this is much more continous, like a steady flow, it's like you "hulk"-up.
I do feel that I could possibly work myself into such a state and I recall hearing that some types did do some kind of rituals before battle.

Another possibility is what I've observed in the SCA, yeah I fight too. There's an odd few that go into some form of battle frenzy. They too get some kind of adreline rush and stop feeling hits (more or less) and when you look into their eyes there's no-one home. As they get older they seem to realise when it's time to step off the field and armour-off, but the phenomenon doesn't seem to go away with age and they're not on drugs.

[Arjos]

Even hoplitai, in the archaic and classical periods, drank before a battle...
Alcohol was very common; while for the "fanatic" units, afaik it was a ceremonial aspect and not a regular consumption...

[FinnishedBarbarian]

Considering what side effects hallucinogens have on some cases (nausea, stomachache, trembling, dysmetria) I find it hard to believe that they were often used to achieve some sort of "battle trance".

Most likely explonation is aforementioned pre battle rituals, warriors whipping each other to frenzy through group suggestion (self-hypnosis) drinking would likely be part of it, but it's function would mainly be getting warriors to right mood (boasting and such).


Alcohol lowers inhibitions and gives you that liquid courage to do things you might not do while not drunk. Cannabis increases certain senses and lessons the effect of pain. While both may slow you down, it doesn't stop you.

So what you reckon, did gaesatae use alchol and cannabis ruderalis mixed together which increases the effects of cannabis causing stronger intoxication and strengthening the side effects? Same apparently applies to shrooms, depressive effects strengthen if used with alcohol. (Quick googling brought those claims so I don't claim that they are indisputable results and I'm too lazy to find anything about hashis at the moment, but if you have time to point me to better sources I'd be grateful)

Well maybe being drunk and depressed is required for one to go to battle with nothing but shield as protection :wall:

>>>Slightly offtopic<<<

I think that telamon showed clearly that gaesatae's tactics/abilities were only useful against foes who couldn't get over the effect which results when facing a adversary who won't go down after sustaining some flesh wounds. Veteran soldiers should be able to come over the fact that your enemy doesn't necessarily drop after the first shot/hit/stab.

The longer they stand the harder they fall

[Arjos]

I think that telamon showed clearly that gaesatae's tactics/abilities were only useful against foes who couldn't get over the effect which results when facing a adversary who won't go down after sustaining some flesh wounds. Veteran soldiers should be able to come over the fact that your enemy doesn't necessarily drop after the first shot/hit/stab.

The longer they stand the harder they fall

Meh, at Telamon, all the Romani did was using missiles against them...
Even in Galatia, they avoided close-quarters as much as possible: Gaisatoi were professional melee fighters...

[FinnishedBarbarian]

And that is where discipline comes to play: many other would have fled at sight seeing huge naked sword swinging crazy celts who just pull pilas from their flesh and keep going. "Note" This was not meant to be appraisal to roman martial skills, of course on fair 1 on 1 close combat gaesatae/tindanotae kicked roman butts back to eternal city :2thumbsup:

[Arjos]

Actually the poorest leves were sent forward and gah at all this "discipline" worship: the Romani in those years were simple levied citizens...

People routing almost instantly at a charge it's true and even hoplitai succeeded in that...
What really happened with naked fanatics is that the enemy avoided a close confrontation: be that due to the uncommon image, their fearsome behaviour or basic tactical choices (poorly armoured enemies are missile fodder)...

Even though one could say that a naked opponent is an easy prey for an all armoured combatant, whatever the reason those professionals gained a psychological edge over the enemy and their experience, coupled with light equipment, made them remarkable in melee...

[NoHelmet]

Despite the interesting thread I couldn't get over this post. Maybe he means 'consumption' but the word consummation to my mind makes me think of consummating a marriage. This must have been some wild action for fatalities to occur.
Yes, i meant consumption, forgive me! :)

[The Stranger]

Meh, at Telamon, all the Romani did was using missiles against them...
Even in Galatia, they avoided close-quarters as much as possible: Gaisatoi were professional melee fighters...

ofcourse... why not use arrows at ppl too stubborn to wear armor... those cheating romans.

[The Stranger]

I'm not so sure the substance is that big a part here, I think it could be a genetic and/or cultural thing.

I've gone "bezerk" a few times in my life, not the type you say in common language, as in raving mad hitting and screaming and whatnot. This was totally different, sure I was angry, really freaking angry, but still in full control. I know what an adrenaline rush is too, this is not it, this is much more continous, like a steady flow, it's like you "hulk"-up.
I do feel that I could possibly work myself into such a state and I recall hearing that some types did do some kind of rituals before battle.

Another possibility is what I've observed in the SCA, yeah I fight too. There's an odd few that go into some form of battle frenzy. They too get some kind of adreline rush and stop feeling hits (more or less) and when you look into their eyes there's no-one home. As they get older they seem to realise when it's time to step off the field and armour-off, but the phenomenon doesn't seem to go away with age and they're not on drugs.

ye i know this, to the extent where you do not even notice that you are bleeding -_-

i got into a fight once and got somehow hit on the shoulder, by falling or a blow i cant recall, and i didnt notice how bad it actually hurt untill a few hours later. it didnt trouble me at all when i was totally 'psyched' up about what happnened but it troubled me for a month or 2 afterwards.

i think this is part of it but i dont know whether this is it alone. would be totally crazy if it was. and they will most likely have trained this part then.

[FinnishedBarbarian]

Sorry no "discipline worship" on my part to me the romans were antiques big bad megacorporation who left little room to creativity or diversity on ways to wage war, just pointed out that against prepared/well armed (concerning the javelins) adversary the gaesatae were in huge disadvantage and that they were able to put so much resistance gives good clue how fearsome opponents they were.

Well to get back to the topic: in gaesataes unit card there is mentioning of some mysterious chemical which seems sort of easy answer to their high pain threshold and it would be quite fitting that only non "barbaroi" who met them would attribute their behaviour to drugs rather than state of being that could be learned. Given the superstitious nature of people in those times such talks would have probably been seen as some sort of divine intervention and roman soldiers would have feared the gauls even more.

Just speculating

[Stark]

ye i know this, to the extent where you do not even notice that you are bleeding -_-

i got into a fight once and got somehow hit on the shoulder, by falling or a blow i cant recall, and i didnt notice how bad it actually hurt untill a few hours later. it didnt trouble me at all when i was totally 'psyched' up about what happnened but it troubled me for a month or 2 afterwards.

i think this is part of it but i dont know whether this is it alone. would be totally crazy if it was. and they will most likely have trained this part then.

I got hit in the nuts once during a fight. I was so angry I didn't even felt it. The pain only came when I calmed down.

[The Stranger]

i feel this thread going to a 'my biggest baddest brawl experience and you shouldve seen the other guy" direction XD

[moonburn]

Yes, i meant consumption, forgive me! :)
ibrahim totally craked me up with that wild action

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

i feel this thread going to a 'my biggest baddest brawl experience and you shouldve seen the other guy" direction XD

:clown: It's fine. After all, this is a rather broad topic about a bunch of loonies 2000 years ago, who were also happen to be high on
something.

[Vilkku92]

:clown: It's fine. After all, this is a rather broad topic about a bunch of loonies 200 years ago, who were also happen to be high on something.

You probably meant 2000 years ago.

By the way, why is everyone thinking these guys as berzerkers of the viking era? In Telamon, most of the Gaesatae were reported to withdraw under the hail of Roman javelins, which doesn't exactly sound like being in some sort of bloodthirsty frenzy. I'm no expert in narcotics, but could they have just used some sort of proto-painkiller unknown to us?

[Frtigern]

A professional warrior knows when it's fruitless to act brave in the face of real death, the hail of incoming missiles coming at you. There's no glory in getting killed before the clash has even started! So you pull back behind your shields or behind a formation of other warriors with bigger shields or into the woods where missiles are deflected. Then once the missile fire has stopped you run out and show your junk just to mock those missile dependent coward enemies who thought they knew how to kill naked men, HAH! That would be more demoralizing to me as a Roman soldier, who relied on his pila to at least weaken or scare the enemy into a frontal assault, but find that the enemy quickly withdrew in good discipline and came right back out in the same numbers! That's when my heart would drop if I was that Roman hastati. "I get all these fancy javelins and all for naught? Now I have to fight the full force of these naked fanatics? Please Mars let me die quickly."

[Vilkku92]

They didn't retreat in good order, and just ended disrupting the formation of their friends facing the other Romans (it was Telamon, remember?). Some also just charged the Romans in frustration, which ended with them dying against the Roman battle line. And I don't think the Romans were showering them with pila, but with the lighter javelins of velites (would make sense they actually used the missile troops they brought into battle). And above all, that still doesn't sound like berzerkers, which was my point.

[Arjos]

They didn't retreat at all, their shields according to Polybios didn't cover the whole body, they stood there received all the missiles from the leves and then charged the hastati, but were already dwindled in their numbers...

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Wasn't the problem with the Gaesatae that they always demanded to be in the front rank of the army, and the first men to engage the enemy? They wanted the rest of the army to see them as the strongest, bravest warriors. And thus they were the first to fall to enemy missiles.

Tactically a better idea for a Gallic army would have been to use expendable skirmishers ahead of the heavy infantry, like the Romans did, to soak up as many enemy missiles as possible before the main clash. But tradition and ego got in the way...

[Ca Putt]

You have that sort of thinking with the Spartans aswell unlike romans and Germanics they demanded their bravest and best looking in the front ranks for sentimental and aesthetic reasons. Somewhat reminds me of the Idea of Speers buildings to look as epic as possible once destroyed.

That however is the theory I doubt they did that every time. It's not even sure if they did it at all, they said so however;)

[Aper]

Why many seems to have this obsession with the "secret substance/weapon/strike/whatever" ?

Yeah, they could have consumed any kind of drug in their rituals,
but hasn't History already showed us that sheer fanaticism is just enough to do any sort of crazy things?

[Frostwulf]

The Gaesatae were certainly brave men, but their appearance in EB 1 is simply overstated. The only battle recorded in which they won is at Faesulae in which they ambushed and outnumbered the Romans. That being said the remnant of Romans that survived took to a hill and the Gaesatae and their fellow Gauls couldn't dislodge them. It is true that the Romans feared them, but in the battles of Telemon and Clastidium they were just about useless.

What most historians I have read call them semi-professional mercenaries, and a few consider them a tribe. What you will find is most of the information provided about the Gaesatae in EB1 is exaggerated or simply fiction, such as the drug use. There is no evidence anywhere that states the Gaesatae used drugs. Fortunately in EB2 you have "power to the 1" taking over the Gallic side. He is much more reasonable and will use actual historical research for his units, which was not done in EB1 for certain Gallic units.