Koran Burning Craziness

[PanzerJaeger]

By The Wall Street Journal

February 23, 2012

KABUL -- Afghanistan is bracing for intensifying protests, as outrage over the burning of Korans at a US military base led to the first American casualties Thursday and President Barack Obama vowed to hold coalition officials accountable for the "inadvertent" sacrilege.

The three days of protests against Monday's burning of Islam's holiest book at the Bagram Air Field already have resulted in the deaths of at least 10 Afghans. Demonstrations are expected to escalate Friday, when clerics at mosques around the country are expected to dedicate their weekly sermons to denouncing the incident.

The deadly demonstrations that spread across Kabul and Afghanistan's provinces this week have targeted US and coalition military bases, Afghan government buildings and other symbols of Western presence.

Hours after the Taliban called on Afghans to kill Western forces in Afghanistan to avenge the insult Thursday, an Afghan soldier opened fire on US troops at a base in the eastern Nangarhar Province, according to Afghan officials.

Two American troops were killed before the Afghan soldier escaped into a crowd of protesters demonstrating outside the base in the province's Khogyani district.

This week's demonstrations erupted after coalition soldiers brought a truckload of Korans and other Islamic books from a Bagram detention facility to an incinerator at the base. Afghan workers at the base said they stopped the soldiers from destroying the books, but not before several copies of the Koran had been partially burned.

US military officials have launched an investigation to try to determine why the soldiers tried to burn Islamic materials. These books, according to some US officials, were slated for destruction because they contained "extremist literature" and prisoners' "clandestine communications."

Last April, after a Florida pastor oversaw the burning of a Koran, angry demonstrators in northern Afghanistan stormed a United Nations compound following Friday prayers, killing seven foreigners.

The memories of last year's attack resonated this week as Western embassies, aid groups and the US military imposed strict travel bans on their staffs and warned foreigners to steer clear of protests. The American Embassy in Kabul extended travel restrictions to northern Afghanistan on Thursday.

In another attempt to assuage the anger, Obama apologized to Karzai for what he called inadvertent attempts to burn the Islamic books, in a personal letter delivered Thursday by the US ambassador to Kabul, Ryan Crocker.

"I assure you that we will take appropriate steps to avoid any recurrence, to include holding accountable those responsible," Obama said in the letter, according to Karzai's office.

Karzai, who issued an appeal for calm Wednesday that appeared to have little immediate effect, met with hundreds of Afghan lawmakers to discuss the crisis Thursday. Some of these lawmakers had called for a "jihad," or holy war, against the US on Wednesday.

The Taliban has sought to capitalize on the widespread outrage by calling for Afghans across the country to attack Western bases, target military convoys and kill soldiers. Earlier this week, it also urged Afghan soldiers to turn their weapons on their Western counterparts.

At the same time, the latest Taliban statement affirmed the insurgent group's support for continuing negotiations with the US to open a Taliban political office in Qatar.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204778604577240773687898142.html?mod=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTop

This is just surreal. The above story reads like an Onion article. There wasn't this much outrage when it was discovered that a group of US soldiers made a hobby out of killing Afghan civilians, but somebody checks the wrong box at garbage pick-up and the nation descends into chaos.

I think this is a microcosm of the whole effort in Afghanistan. These people's priorities are just so completely stu... idio... cra... different than our own that they will never be dragged into the 21st century.

[rvg]

Yeah, we really need to get out of there. Let them go back to the middle ages.

[rory_20_uk]

Amen.

There is no middle ground with such people. Leave 'em to it. Maybe fellow Muslim countries can see where they're coming from.

~:smoking:

[Kralizec]

To be honest, allthough the reaction is certainly overblown, it's well known that muslims are extremely sensitive when it comes to the physical destruction of Qu'ran books. As if they were religious idols or something.
Trying to dump a load of Qu'rans into a furnace suggests a serious lack of judgement.

[rvg]

...Trying to dump a load of Qu'rans into a furnace suggests a serious lack of judgement.

But what does trying to kill people over that suggest?

[CBR]

Western decadency always wins, it just takes time.

Smartbombs on the nutters and smartphones for the wimenz.

[rvg]

Smartbombs on the nutters and smartphones for the wimenz.

Smartbombs are too expensive. Good old fashioned carpet bombings would be cheaper and would have a greater effect. The beauty of violence, fear and pain is that it is universally understood and understood well. We need to remind them that we should be feared, moreso than the Taliban. Yeah, Taliban can go in chop a few heads, we can do more than that.

[rory_20_uk]

To be honest, allthough the reaction is certainly overblown, it's well known that muslims are extremely sensitive when it comes to the physical destruction of Qu'ran books. As if they were religious idols or something.
Trying to dump a load of Qu'rans into a furnace suggests a serious lack of judgement.

Boo hoo, get over it.

Lopping off limbs / stoning people to death / making them wear odd clothing irks me, but I don't think it's OK to kill people over it. If they want tolerance, they have to provide it to others.

~:smoking:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well boo hoo, the Taliban don't want tolerance. They are probably quite happy for the USA to bugger off and go bother someone else, whilst they take over and stone some more people to death for good measure.

Yes this is serious lack of judgment because the idiots who did it should've realised that in Afghanistan there would be hell to pay for this, and not with stern notes from their command but with the blood of their fellow soldiers who are going to get killed “in revenge”. It's utterly irrelevant what you or I think, it matters a great deal more how this is spun by the Taliban.

[rory_20_uk]

If the locals would rather be stoned by the Taliban, then so be it. Their call. I'll not loose a wink of sleep over it. We are not here to save them from themselves.

~:smoking:

[Centurion1]

im so sick of these ignorant savages. because that is what they are they are freaking savages and they are as ignorant as you can find in todays world.

was it wrong to burn their holy books? why yes of course though if what they said was true about clandestine communications they have to be disposed of. Speaking of that lets discuss the absolute hypocrisy if these ******* are using the koran for secret conversation.

I would run this war like Genghis Khan did so damn fast.....

[CBR]

If I'm deciphering the tables correctly then they might cost 5 to 10 times more than the dumb version. So, unless you don't know where the target is, I don't think you save any money using dumb bombs.

It might create more shock and awe but it also requires more planes to do the job, and they are becoming hideously expensive and therefore fewer in numbers.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

"Why are we bothering with these losers?" is my reaction.

How widespread are the demonstrations?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Why are we bothering with these losers?" is my reaction.

How widespread are the demonstrations?

Countrywide, but that doesn't mean everyone is joining in. This isn't purely a religious issue, its much more about how stupidly the Americans have handled things over there - this is just a touch paper.

Think about it: How would people react in the US if a UN sanctioned Muslim peacekeeping force burned fifty Bibles in a waste pit?

Badly?

Now imagine the US' economy is non functional, the peacekeepers have been there over a decade and you've got no infastructure because one side or t'other is always blowing it up.

You'd be pretty narked, wouldn't you?

[Papewaio]

Well historically speaking on the classiest nicest regimes have ever participated in book burning.

=][=

I'm pretty sure of the many methods of disposing of books burning them is pretty low on the list of winning hearts and minds.

It's the ideological equivalent of salting the earth of your enemy. You've basically said their most precious ideas mean spit to you and you're quite happy to destroy them.

What is the literacy rate in Afghanistan? Aside from the Qur'an how many books do you think the typically house has?

Nero playing his harp while Rome burnt and the burning of Alexandria Library is still remembered to this day. Burning of books has never been seen as a great thing to do. Book burnings is generally done by small minded tyrannical regimes so scared of ideological opponents that they feel the need to stop the spread of their ideas.

Why on earth associate oneself with those by doing such a stupid thing?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Countrywide, but that doesn't mean everyone is joining in. This isn't purely a religious issue, its much more about how stupidly the Americans have handled things over there - this is just a touch paper.

Think about it: How would people react in the US if a UN sanctioned Muslim peacekeeping force burned fifty Bibles in a waste pit?

Badly?

Now imagine the US' economy is non functional, the peacekeepers have been there over a decade and you've got no infastructure because one side or t'other is always blowing it up.

You'd be pretty narked, wouldn't you?

No.


Well historically speaking on the classiest nicest regimes have ever participated in book burning.

=][=

I'm pretty sure of the many methods of disposing of books burning them is pretty low on the list of winning hearts and minds.

It's the ideological equivalent of salting the earth of your enemy. You've basically said their most precious ideas mean spit to you and you're quite happy to destroy them.

What is the literacy rate in Afghanistan? Aside from the Qur'an how many books do you think the typically house has?

Nero playing his harp while Rome burnt and the burning of Alexandria Library is still remembered to this day. Burning of books has never been seen as a great thing to do. Book burnings is generally done by small minded tyrannical regimes so scared of ideological opponents that they feel the need to stop the spread of their ideas.

Why on earth associate oneself with those by doing such a stupid thing?

Book burning is generally done by college students getting rid of a textbook.

Is the united states trying to wipe out the Koran by burning it? Was anyone? I don't think they are protesting against that at all.

Why don't YOU take some responsibility and not associate it with small minded tyrannical regimes yourself.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No.



Book burning is generally done by college students getting rid of a textbook.

Is the united states trying to wipe out the Koran by burning it? Was anyone? I don't think they are protesting against that at all.

Why don't YOU take some responsibility and not associate it with small minded tyrannical regimes yourself.

So, basically, American culture is so wasteful you burn books - rather than donating them to charity, or selling them to incoming students?

Ye Gods!

No wonder you don't get it.

Pape is right, book burning is universally recognised as an ideaological activity, except by Americans, and is NEVER taken well.

[Veho Nex]

Well historically speaking on the classiest nicest regimes have ever participated in book burning.

=][=

I'm pretty sure of the many methods of disposing of books burning them is pretty low on the list of winning hearts and minds.

It's the ideological equivalent of salting the earth of your enemy. You've basically said their most precious ideas mean spit to you and you're quite happy to destroy them.

What is the literacy rate in Afghanistan? Aside from the Qur'an how many books do you think the typically house has?

Nero playing his harp while Rome burnt and the burning of Alexandria Library is still remembered to this day. Burning of books has never been seen as a great thing to do. Book burnings is generally done by small minded tyrannical regimes so scared of ideological opponents that they feel the need to stop the spread of their ideas.

Why on earth associate oneself with those by doing such a stupid thing?

No... Unless a UN sanctioned Muslim peacekeeping force decided to burn all books except for the koran. These idiots, and thats what these extremist are, need to calm the heck down. Id tell you all what I really thought of the situation but the orgs rules prohibit it.

[Ice]

Let them burn.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So, basically, American culture is so wasteful you burn books - rather than donating them to charity, or selling them to incoming students?

You have any idea how many books are plain disposed of every year?


Pape is right, book burning is universally recognised as an ideaological activity, except by Americans, and is NEVER taken well.

It's not recognized to be so, because it isn't. Take responsibility for your own illusions.

IIRC nabokov bought up all the translations of one of his books and had it burned because he didn't like how it was translated. People burn books for all kinds of reasons.

If you can't tell the difference between incidental burning and deliberately symbolic burning, AND you can't tell the difference between symbolic burning and a serious attempt to wipe out a book, you have no one but yourself to blame. If you go screaming fascism expect to have eyes rolled at you.

And surely this is about desecration or something along those lines and not fascism like you guys are pretending?

[PanzerJaeger]

So, basically, American culture is so wasteful you burn books - rather than donating them to charity, or selling them to incoming students?

Ye Gods!

No wonder you don't get it.



Those (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2002/mar/22/museums.referenceandlanguages) terrible (http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/1866925.0/) Americans (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2000/aug/14/society).

Let's try to keep things in the realm of reality.

[HoreTore]

Burning the quran was the spark, not the underlying cause.

Try getting that through your bloodlust, people.

[Husar]

If you can't tell the difference between incidental burning and deliberately symbolic burning, AND you can't tell the difference between symbolic burning and a serious attempt to wipe out a book, you have no one but yourself to blame. If you go screaming fascism expect to have eyes rolled at you.

You are seriously claiming it's your own achievement to be able to differentiate between that? Nothing to do with education? Like the kind of education Afghans were denied for a long, long time? These people were raised and indoctrinated to think this way for many years, as the more educated people the US gets the choice of:

a) annoy their archaic sensibilities and deal with the consequences (should be happy if it's just peaceful protests and not all of them joining the taliban)
b) try to be somewhat respectful until the people are on a similar level to the US, which isn't done in a day or a year
c) not get into the country after 9/11 in the first place in an effort to differentiate between a single, horrible terrorist act requiring police action and WAR ON TERRORISM AND BLOODY REVENGE

Sure, you value american lives and they value an arabic book, but the reactions to a destruction of such a value are very similar in both countries.

I would agree that books aren't worth making such a big fuss over but then I didn't grow up being taught to value these books over everything else.
For these people islam is their life and islam is represented by that book, you liberated them and claimed to want to bring them democracy, freedom and our values, obviously hasn't arrived or succeeded yet, that's not entirely their fault. :shrug:

The West took many centuries to get from crusades to capitalism and some here still hold on to very old religious beliefs.
Expecting Afghans to turn around and become liberals after liberation turned out to be wrong a few years ago already.

The issue isn't even worth this long post that someone is inevitably going to interprete as america burning and subsequently protest against me. :sweatdrop:

[spankythehippo]

As it has been previously mentioned, to these people, their religion means everything. To them, they see the Qu'ran burning as uncalled for. Almost like a random guy walking into your house, taking a dump on your couch, laughing sardonically, then leaving. No damage has been done (except for the irrevocable poop stain), but it was not nice (maybe my analogy could do with some improvement).

If the US military base justifies their actions by pointing towards the overall anti-West sentiment portrayed by the people, they have got it all wrong. As Phillipus said, the condition of the Middle East is third world. They've got enough to deal with. So the Qu'ran burning was adding salt to the wound.

I respect the fact that the Middle East is still abiding by their ways, but this seems to be the core reason why people call them "archaic". What the West is trying to do is uncanny to the conversion of "savages" by missionaries in various countries in the good ol' days.

Why can't people mind their own business? Maybe what another guy believes in does not agree with you. But should it matter? No. Only when they're beliefs are starting to affect you, should you display some sort of opposition.

[Fragony]

If burn a quran in a muslim country you are just a disrespectful idiot, of course they are angry

[Hosakawa Tito]

Strange that when Afghan attacks Afghan, and Qurans are destroyed in the process, that doesn't seem to offend. Osama is dead, mission accomplished, get the hell out. Leave them to the tender mercies of the Taliban of which they seem to prefer.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Strange that when Afghan attacks Afghan, and Qurans are destroyed in the process, that doesn't seem to offend. Osama is dead, mission accomplished, get the hell out. Leave them to the tender mercies of the Taliban of which they seem to prefer.

Not strange at all really....

That's the point.

Stop looking at them like savages and try to think how these people are living day-to-day and what their lives are like.

[Fragony]

Leave them to the tender mercies of the Taliban of which they seem to prefer.

Do they have to be thankful for being invaded? The Germans did a lot of good here, but that isn't the first thing that comes to mind to my grandma.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You are seriously claiming it's your own achievement to be able to differentiate between that?

I would agree that books aren't worth making such a big fuss over but then I didn't grow up being taught to value these books over everything else.
For these people islam is their life and islam is represented by that book, you liberated them and claimed to want to bring them democracy, freedom and our values, obviously hasn't arrived or succeeded yet, that's not entirely their fault. :shrug:


Stop looking at them like savages and try to think how these people are living day-to-day and what their lives are like.

This is where judeo-christian style morality gets a terribly distorted view of things--you guys are being blinkered by culture.

We can and should pride ourselves on who we are. Limiting ourselves to what we've chosen of our own free will or are responsible for is peculiar and wrong and philosophical quicksand to boot.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Not strange at all really....

That's the point.

Stop looking at them like savages and try to think how these people are living day-to-day and what their lives are like.

Apparently my sarcasm isn't working too well. Their culture and tribal society is savage. There's no getting around that anytime soon.


Do they have to be thankful for being invaded? The Germans did a lot of good here, but that isn't the first thing that comes to mind to my grandma.

Nope. The Taliban miscalculated and refused to hand over Bin Laden, they reaped the whirlwind. They can go back to being abused by the Taliban if that's their comfort zone. Aid and abet any more terror attacks on the US, expect more of the same.

[rvg]

Nope. The Taliban miscalculated and refused to hand over Bin Laden, they reaped the whirlwind. They can go back to being abused by the Taliban if that's their comfort zone. Aid and abet any more terror attacks on the US, expect more of the same.

/amen.

[Whacker]

Not strange at all really....

That's the point.

Stop looking at them like savages and try to think how these people are living day-to-day and what their lives are like.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action. These savages displayed none of these traits. They lack self-control when they started burning and rioting over disposal of a material item. They lack understanding when they refuse to accept that burning of these items or articles is NOT a symbolic thing. They don't place proper valuation on human LIFE when it ends in this ridiculous, despicable display of ignorance over such an act.

Here's a secular example. I was going to use something like the Vietnam War Memorial but there's only one of those so it doesn't fit. Say somewhere in Afghanistan, there's a large number of American flags. These have important, symbolic meaning to us Americans and we feel they should be treated with the proper respect and care. The Afghans dispose of these by tossing them in the trash and landfills, and some American notices. We would be outraged at this, it'd be all over the news and publicly decried and denounced hand over foot, but we aren't going to go burn down the Afghan embassy, stone Afghans on sight, or act like uncivilized savages.

Destroy something material with malicious intent or not, someone can get as mad as they please. The difference between US and THEM is that we exercise self control and place proper valuation on the action, and context of the action, and maintain self-control throughout. We can make more flags, we can discuss this like civilized people, and we can come to accords or understandings. We can't resurrect an individual who has been killed, or take back permanant debilitating injuries that result from such stupidity.

[Kralizec]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action. These savages displayed none of these traits. They lack self-control when they started burning and rioting over disposal of a material item. They lack understanding when they refuse to accept that burning of these items or articles is NOT a symbolic thing. They don't place proper valuation on human LIFE when it ends in this ridiculous, despicable display of ignorance over such an act.

Here's a secular example. I was going to use something like the Vietnam War Memorial but there's only one of those so it doesn't fit. Say somewhere in Afghanistan, there's a large number of American flags. These have important, symbolic meaning to us Americans and we feel they should be treated with the proper respect and care. The Afghans dispose of these by tossing them in the trash and landfills, and some American notices. We would be outraged at this, it'd be all over the news and publicly decried and denounced hand over foot, but we aren't going to go burn down the Afghan embassy, stone Afghans on sight, or act like uncivilized savages.

Destroy something material with malicious intent or not, someone can get as mad as they please. The difference between US and THEM is that we exercise self control and place proper valuation on the action, and context of the action, and maintain self-control throughout. We can make more flags, we can discuss this like civilized people, and we can come to accords or understandings. We can't resurrect an individual who has been killed, or take back permanant debilitating injuries that result from such stupidity.

All true, but what happened here was entirely predictable. Hence disposing of those Qu'rans in a way that Aghans would notice was incredibly stupid.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

All true, but what happened here was entirely predictable. Hence disposing of those Qu'rans in a way that Aghans would notice was incredibly stupid.

Individual people being stupid is insignificant and not comment worthy. You may as well post one of those videos where they go around asking people geography questions on the street.

And if something is stupid only because of how a bunch of much stupider people will react to it, it's dead wrong to focus on the something...the only story is the afghan reaction.

[Ja'chyra]

Nope. The Taliban miscalculated and refused to hand over Bin Laden, they reaped the whirlwind. They can go back to being abused by the Taliban if that's their comfort zone. Aid and abet any more terror attacks on the US, expect more of the same.

Terror attacks on the world I'm sure you mean. But, basically, not even close. If that's the reason we're there we should be taking preventative action that wouldn't be tolerated in the modern world, like wiping out entire blood lines and religions, as someone else said, go Ghengis Khan on them. Either that or educate, and we've already shown we don't have the patience for that.

[Kralizec]

Individual people being stupid is insignificant and not comment worthy. You may as well post one of those videos where they go around asking people geography questions on the street.

And if something is stupid only because of how a bunch of much stupider people will react to it, it's dead wrong to focus on the something...the only story is the afghan reaction.

Two points:

1) "individual people" - I may be wrong on this, but I imagine that the people who handled the books had superiors who should have prevented this from happening - not because I think that disposing of Qu'rans is in itself disrespectful in any objective sense, but because of how it looks to the Afghans.

2) let's just say that I disagree with the second part of your post. The sensitivity of muslims in this regard is something that exists, period. The incident that sparked this was incredibly stupid for the same reason that it's incredibly stupid to taunt a violent criminal.

[HoreTore]

Stupidity?

How is this stupid? The afghan people are attacking a foreign invader. They are attacking the enemy. We are not there to help, we are there to enforce our way upon them.

Some people are talking about "valuing life" and other such nonsense. Well, the life of an enemy, the life of the one who killed your parents, isn't worth much to anyone, and it's the same for the afghans.

It seems like some people are forgetting there's a war in afghanistan...

For an anology Which actually works, unlike the vietnam nonsense above, try the following:

If the Germans trashed the Norwegian royal castle in 1944, how would the resistance have responded? Of course they would've stepped up their activities, at least the communist one(the other was more controlled by London, so it would depend on London...). Just like the Afghans are doing now.

[Papewaio]

Apparently my sarcasm isn't working too well. Their culture and tribal society is savage. There's no getting around that anytime soon.

Burning the most precious object of an oppressed people isn't part of the portfolio of winning hearts and minds.

If I went into some parts of LA and starting burning Rap music would I expect a different outcome?

If I went into the bible belt and started burning bibles? I'd expect upset locals who'd tell me to go *insert rude but non-god offending word here* myself.

Go into a country where they have very few books and they are by comparison far more precious. A country whose economy is 1% of that of the foreign military that is in charge. An economy where children are dying in the cold. Where even basic coloring books cause children to fight over their possession. Well burning books is a much bigger thing given the comparative value.

Could the book disposal been done in a more thoughtful manner? Heck yeah. I'm not saying don't dispose them. Ask the local Islamic leaders what is the proper method, if none then inter the books for 25-40 years. There are just much better methods than ones that have such a poor historical association than book burning.

For all of those on here who aren't quite getting it. The likes of Pindar... one of the smartest minds to have frequented the Org, quit over getting one of his posts deleted. People get very angry over post deletion, think about how you would feel if all your posts where deleted by a moderator being over zealous.


Nope. The Taliban miscalculated and refused to hand over Bin Laden, they reaped the whirlwind. They can go back to being abused by the Taliban if that's their comfort zone. Aid and abet any more terror attacks on the US, expect more of the same.

It's not an either or win-loss equation. There is a better path. Taliban were not in control of the entire country. Bin Laden wasn't even found in Afghanistan, he was in the Pakistan equivalent of Fort Bragg township.

[Husar]

Erm, no.

The question you need to ask is why are these people stupid? Why do they behave like savages?

Easy to go and say "they're stupid savages, I blame them for being stupid savages!"
Ask someone whether that person wants to be a stupid savage and the answer is probably no.
What makes someone not a stupid savage? Education.
How much education has been offered to Afghans in the last decades? Hardly any as far as I know.
All they got are quran schools and some tribal pride.

I'm not saying that I think we have to think of them as equals or some wishy washy commie hippie stuff, I'm saying if you want them to stop acting that way, educate them. Make sure they can send their children to proper school where they learn what we learned that enables us to restrain ourselves when someone burns our flags, teach them what we think are proper moral values etc.

They never learned that, how can you expect them to abide by it?

[Hax]

I think one should also make the effort to look at the modern history of Afghanistan, its ethnic diversity, the influence of the Taliban, the Soviet invasion and finally the Pashtunvali (the ethos of the Pashtos), especially the last one, as it talks about honour and justice. This is incredibly important in Pashto culture.

So, really, what do we even know about Afghanistan? I think a huge part of the problem stems from the fact that generally, we tend to have a very linear view of the Middle-East. I remember my professor of linguistics telling me about law in the Sinai: basically, if a member of any tribe committed a crime (ranging from theft to murder to adultery to what have you), they'd call in a judge from another tribe who'd started negotiating with the leader of the respective tribe. They'd negotiate until they'd reached an agreement on a sum of money, and that was it. No shari‘a, no cutting off hands or stoning or lashing, just some money.

The point of this anecdote is that we shouldn't forget that the Middle-East is an exceptionally diverse place.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Taliban were not in control of the entire country. Bin Laden wasn't even found in Afghanistan, he was in the Pakistan equivalent of Fort Bragg township.

Check your history books. At the time right before the invasion, when we asked the Taliban to hand over OBL, the man was in fact in Afghanistan, harbored by the Taliban. The moment when he fled to Pakistan was at Tora Bora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tora_Bora) where we failed to grab him in time. That was December of 2001, way after we asked for him from the Taliban.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Erm, no.

The question you need to ask is why are these people stupid? Why do they behave like savages?

Easy to go and say "they're stupid savages, I blame them for being stupid savages!"
Ask someone whether that person wants to be a stupid savage and the answer is probably no.
What makes someone not a stupid savage? Education.
How much education has been offered to Afghans in the last decades? Hardly any as far as I know.
All they got are quran schools and some tribal pride.

I'm not saying that I think we have to think of them as equals or some wishy washy commie hippie stuff, I'm saying if you want them to stop acting that way, educate them. Make sure they can send their children to proper school where they learn what we learned that enables us to restrain ourselves when someone burns our flags, teach them what we think are proper moral values etc.

They never learned that, how can you expect them to abide by it?

That's the question you need to ask if you are going to try and fix things...not if you are going to leave. It's perfectly interesting to be sure.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action. These savages displayed none of these traits. They lack self-control when they started burning and rioting over disposal of a material item. They lack understanding when they refuse to accept that burning of these items or articles is NOT a symbolic thing. They don't place proper valuation on human LIFE when it ends in this ridiculous, despicable display of ignorance over such an act.

Here's a secular example. I was going to use something like the Vietnam War Memorial but there's only one of those so it doesn't fit. Say somewhere in Afghanistan, there's a large number of American flags. These have important, symbolic meaning to us Americans and we feel they should be treated with the proper respect and care. The Afghans dispose of these by tossing them in the trash and landfills, and some American notices. We would be outraged at this, it'd be all over the news and publicly decried and denounced hand over foot, but we aren't going to go burn down the Afghan embassy, stone Afghans on sight, or act like uncivilized savages.

Destroy something material with malicious intent or not, someone can get as mad as they please. The difference between US and THEM is that we exercise self control and place proper valuation on the action, and context of the action, and maintain self-control throughout. We can make more flags, we can discuss this like civilized people, and we can come to accords or understandings. We can't resurrect an individual who has been killed, or take back permanant debilitating injuries that result from such stupidity.

No, compare it to burning copies of the US Constitution, in the US, when the US is the poor Third World Country occupied for over a decade.

Anyway, people murder abortionists in the US, so I don't see that the conceptual gulf is as wide as you are making out.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Burning the most precious object of an oppressed people isn't part of the portfolio of winning hearts and minds.

If I went into some parts of LA and starting burning Rap music would I expect a different outcome?

If I went into the bible belt and started burning bibles? I'd expect upset locals who'd tell me to go *insert rude but non-god offending word here* myself.

Go into a country where they have very few books and they are by comparison far more precious. A country whose economy is 1% of that of the foreign military that is in charge. An economy where children are dying in the cold. Where even basic coloring books cause children to fight over their possession. Well burning books is a much bigger thing given the comparative value.

Could the book disposal been done in a more thoughtful manner? Heck yeah. I'm not saying don't dispose them. Ask the local Islamic leaders what is the proper method, if none then inter the books for 25-40 years. There are just much better methods than ones that have such a poor historical association than book burning.

For all of those on here who aren't quite getting it. The likes of Pindar... one of the smartest minds to have frequented the Org, quit over getting one of his posts deleted. People get very angry over post deletion, think about how you would feel if all your posts where deleted by a moderator being over zealous.



It's not an either or win-loss equation. There is a better path. Taliban were not in control of the entire country. Bin Laden wasn't even found in Afghanistan, he was in the Pakistan equivalent of Fort Bragg township.

Last statement first. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan till after the battle of Tora Bora when he escaped into Pakistan.

You are justifying murdering soldiers over an unintentional act of burning an object or symbol. Do you honestly believe that if you intentionally burn a US flag or bible or Rap CD in L.A. the reaction for that would be to kill you? Really Pape?
Burning and burial of the ashes is the preferable method for dignified disposal of an American flag. An honest mistake taken as desecration? You be the judge.

However, in Afghanistan:
If you burn our scripture –we’re going to kill you
If you drawl cartoon characters of our prophet – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t convert to our religion – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t let us be tyrants over our people – we’re going to kill you

Am I missing anything?

That is what they are teaching their children, when they're not raping,murdering, starving them that is. There's no winning hearts and minds that are twisted by this kind of logic.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Last statement first. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan till after the battle of Tora Bora when he escaped into Pakistan.

You are justifying murdering soldiers over an unintentional act of burning an object or symbol. Do you honestly believe that if you intentionally burn a US flag or bible or Rap CD in L.A. the reaction for that would be to kill you? Really Pape?
Burning and burial of the ashes is the preferable method for dignified disposal of an American flag. An honest mistake taken as desecration? You be the judge.

However, in Afghanistan:
If you burn our scripture –we’re going to kill you
If you drawl cartoon characters of our prophet – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t convert to our religion – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t let us be tyrants over our people – we’re going to kill you

Am I missing anything?

That is what they are teaching their children, when they're not raping,murdering, starving them that is. There's no winning hearts and minds that are twisted by this kind of logic.

You're missing the ~90% who don't think like that but will get very upset anway.

Thus far, nobody has responded to my example. From this I conclude that our American friends cannot concieve of the US being an occupied Third World country, which speaks volumes in the current situation.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If the US was a third world country we wouldn't be proud of our constitution ;)

[Ja'chyra]

You're missing the ~90% who don't think like that but will get very upset anway.

Thus far, nobody has responded to my example. From this I conclude that our American friends cannot concieve of the US being an occupied Third World country, which speaks volumes in the current situation.

People haven't answered it because it would be speculation only and differ with everyones opinion.

Maybe people do kill abortionists in the US, I don't know, but I do know they don't go on a country wide rampage.

[Fisherking]

Well, we can’t say it is like a missionary who gets bad things done to him after declining to sleep with the headman’s wife.

On the one hand we have people looking for a way to cause trouble and they were handed it on a silver platter.

On the other hand we have a case of gross incompetence at best and a deliberate act to provoke the locals at worst.

Now it has turned into an international incident.

It is more a time for damage control.

When you are dealing with religion common sense goes out the window and you just have to deal with what is.

[Fragony]

Stupidity?

How is this stupid? The afghan people are attacking a foreign invader. They are attacking the enemy. We are not there to help, we are there to enforce our way upon them.

Some people are talking about "valuing life" and other such nonsense. Well, the life of an enemy, the life of the one who killed your parents, isn't worth much to anyone, and it's the same for the afghans.

It seems like some people are forgetting there's a war in afghanistan...

For an anology Which actually works, unlike the vietnam nonsense above, try the following:

If the Germans trashed the Norwegian royal castle in 1944, how would the resistance have responded? Of course they would've stepped up their activities, at least the communist one(the other was more controlled by London, so it would depend on London...). Just like the Afghans are doing now.

Agreeing with the leftie here

[Whacker]

You're missing the ~90% who don't think like that but will get very upset anway.

Thus far, nobody has responded to my example. From this I conclude that our American friends cannot concieve of the US being an occupied Third World country, which speaks volumes in the current situation.

You're going off topic, but I'll bite.

They're occupied because they got themselves in that position to begin with. Read Hosa's posts. These people in general were actively supportive at worst, ambivalant at best, to their theocratic, radical government, the Taliban. This government aided, housed, abetted terrorists who attacked US citizens and targets that were all non-military in nature. Their government actively refused to extradite or assist in capture with the known and self-admitted perpetrators of these crimes, which is the equivalent to endorsing those activities. The backwater tribal savages actively assisted these same people, gave them intel and knowledge, hid them, fed them, etc. As Hosa stated, they reaped the whirlwind. I'm assuming you can now connect the dots and figure out why the US would never, ever be in this type of situation.

They've been "occupied" now for years. Anyone who believes that the US forces there haven't actively tried to make that area a better place for everyone are self deceived fools. Ignoring the military's propaganda and the media, I've a number of friends who've been deployed over there about what they do and how they try to take positive action. Want another account since you all will discount this? Read Goofball's posts. The average US soldier is not a bloodthirsty baby-murdering psychopath, they're doing their jobs and genuinely want to see an improvement in the quality of life over there. They aren't shooting civilians for sport, they're handing out shoes and food, teaching them how to make their living conditions better, modern medicine techniques and methods.

Guess what, it's not really working at all. Why? Because it's so damn corrupt, and most all of the backwater savages living in their tents are fine with that and have no desire for a status quo change. Some people here have claimed it's an education issue, and worse that it's an excuse for them acting like they do. I call total BS. These people aren't living in a vacuum, they've had contact with the rest of the world since the first ancient empires thousands of years ago. Communication and exposure aren't the issues at all, all of those means are there and available and have been since time immemorial.

As Hosa said. If the Taliban is what they want back, let them have it. If they try and pull more BS or provide support to active US enemies, then they'll reap the whirlwind again. Or here's another thought. We, being the US, went in to get the bad guys, and tried to make it a better place. Didn't really work at all. Think you can do a better job? Great, get your government to send in some people and material to assist, and see how far ya'll get. But get off your high horses and stop whining about how the US didn't do such and such or should have done such and such, because it's been done and tried. We've done what we came for, we tried to help, and it didn't work.

[Tellos Athenaios]

But get off your high horses and stop whining about how the US didn't do such and such or should have done such and such, because it's been done and tried. We've done what we came for, we tried to help, and it didn't work.

No, you're talking past each other. The whining that goes on here is from the exasperated US Americans who are fed up with Afghanistan.

Fine, but don't let that deceive you into thinking whatever the USA actually did do for good actually counts for anything. It's just now how the world works. You can do a lot of volunteer work in all sorts of charities, but if you then go to a man's home and start insulting his sainted mother you should not be surprised to get manhandled at some point. Acceptable response? Probably not. To be expected? Why, yes.

This is protest at a book burning, plain and simple, spun for political gain by the Taliban. Again, whether or not it is proportionate or even “right” in our opinions is utterly irrelevant. What matters is the perceived slight by the Afghans, and how this is spun by the Taliban.

Put it this way the job of the US military is not to moan and whine about how unfair life is. It's job is (among other things) to accurately assess and mitigate danger. Putting an unstable oil lamp next on the ridge of an open barrel of gunpowder or burn a Quran in a deeply religious, conservative country that so happens to value the Quran as a bed rock of society (and then flip it over or let word get out) is simply not that smart.

Cultural sensitivity training is not some wishy-washy nancy must-see-through course designed by politically correct ivory tower academics; it is simply a first aid to survive in a foreign country. Disregarding it is like disregarding the advice to bring plenty of fresh water when trekking through the Sahara desert.

[rory_20_uk]

I'm assuming you can now connect the dots and figure out why the US would never, ever be in this type of situation.

Really? The USA never targets civilians? Or is it OK as long as it is merely collateral damage, with the target a militant - probably.

Americans commit their atrocities wearing uniforms, an option that others do not have.

Afghanistan is an open sewer, but The USA isn't whiter than white.

~:smoking:

[The Stranger]

By The Wall Street Journal

February 23, 2012

KABUL -- Afghanistan is bracing for intensifying protests, as outrage over the burning of Korans at a US military base led to the first American casualties Thursday and President Barack Obama vowed to hold coalition officials accountable for the "inadvertent" sacrilege.

The three days of protests against Monday's burning of Islam's holiest book at the Bagram Air Field already have resulted in the deaths of at least 10 Afghans. Demonstrations are expected to escalate Friday, when clerics at mosques around the country are expected to dedicate their weekly sermons to denouncing the incident.

The deadly demonstrations that spread across Kabul and Afghanistan's provinces this week have targeted US and coalition military bases, Afghan government buildings and other symbols of Western presence.

Hours after the Taliban called on Afghans to kill Western forces in Afghanistan to avenge the insult Thursday, an Afghan soldier opened fire on US troops at a base in the eastern Nangarhar Province, according to Afghan officials.

Two American troops were killed before the Afghan soldier escaped into a crowd of protesters demonstrating outside the base in the province's Khogyani district.

This week's demonstrations erupted after coalition soldiers brought a truckload of Korans and other Islamic books from a Bagram detention facility to an incinerator at the base. Afghan workers at the base said they stopped the soldiers from destroying the books, but not before several copies of the Koran had been partially burned.

US military officials have launched an investigation to try to determine why the soldiers tried to burn Islamic materials. These books, according to some US officials, were slated for destruction because they contained "extremist literature" and prisoners' "clandestine communications."

Last April, after a Florida pastor oversaw the burning of a Koran, angry demonstrators in northern Afghanistan stormed a United Nations compound following Friday prayers, killing seven foreigners.

The memories of last year's attack resonated this week as Western embassies, aid groups and the US military imposed strict travel bans on their staffs and warned foreigners to steer clear of protests. The American Embassy in Kabul extended travel restrictions to northern Afghanistan on Thursday.

In another attempt to assuage the anger, Obama apologized to Karzai for what he called inadvertent attempts to burn the Islamic books, in a personal letter delivered Thursday by the US ambassador to Kabul, Ryan Crocker.

"I assure you that we will take appropriate steps to avoid any recurrence, to include holding accountable those responsible," Obama said in the letter, according to Karzai's office.

Karzai, who issued an appeal for calm Wednesday that appeared to have little immediate effect, met with hundreds of Afghan lawmakers to discuss the crisis Thursday. Some of these lawmakers had called for a "jihad," or holy war, against the US on Wednesday.

The Taliban has sought to capitalize on the widespread outrage by calling for Afghans across the country to attack Western bases, target military convoys and kill soldiers. Earlier this week, it also urged Afghan soldiers to turn their weapons on their Western counterparts.

At the same time, the latest Taliban statement affirmed the insurgent group's support for continuing negotiations with the US to open a Taliban political office in Qatar.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204778604577240773687898142.html?mod=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTop

This is just surreal. The above story reads like an Onion article. There wasn't this much outrage when it was discovered that a group of US soldiers made a hobby out of killing Afghan civilians, but somebody checks the wrong box at garbage pick-up and the nation descends into chaos.

I think this is a microcosm of the whole effort in Afghanistan. These people's priorities are just so completely stu... idio... cra... different than our own that they will never be dragged into the 21st century.

if you do not act american you are not in the 21st century... that one is new to me.


If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action. These savages displayed none of these traits. They lack self-control when they started burning and rioting over disposal of a material item. They lack understanding when they refuse to accept that burning of these items or articles is NOT a symbolic thing. They don't place proper valuation on human LIFE when it ends in this ridiculous, despicable display of ignorance over such an act.

Here's a secular example. I was going to use something like the Vietnam War Memorial but there's only one of those so it doesn't fit. Say somewhere in Afghanistan, there's a large number of American flags. These have important, symbolic meaning to us Americans and we feel they should be treated with the proper respect and care. The Afghans dispose of these by tossing them in the trash and landfills, and some American notices. We would be outraged at this, it'd be all over the news and publicly decried and denounced hand over foot, but we aren't going to go burn down the Afghan embassy, stone Afghans on sight, or act like uncivilized savages.

Destroy something material with malicious intent or not, someone can get as mad as they please. The difference between US and THEM is that we exercise self control and place proper valuation on the action, and context of the action, and maintain self-control throughout. We can make more flags, we can discuss this like civilized people, and we can come to accords or understandings. We can't resurrect an individual who has been killed, or take back permanant debilitating injuries that result from such stupidity.

and here i was, thinking that France was a civilised country.

You are not just burning a material thing, you are destroying the fundament of their ideals. ok lets go with that.

When the students of '66 thought that the government was "destroying" ideals, what did they do? They rose and took to the streets, and I dont think it was all very peacefull. Perhaps the level of violence differed, but that is a gradual difference, and i think you make the difference between civilised and uncivilised principial. so unless France only civilised after '66 or if those people were not civilised people, how does this fit?

or, what about this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot

London riots... Or that it turns out that most hardcore football hooligans were infact "civilised" familymen, or they became such later.

its all much more complicated than you make it out to be.


The underpinning values that distinguish civilization from savages are self-control, acceptance and tolerance, understanding, and proper valuation of action.

many of these traits are lacking in let's say the german army (as a whole, or the ss if you would like). still it would be hard to maintain that germany of that time was uncivilised.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

This is protest at a book burning, plain and simple, spun for political gain by the Taliban. Again, whether or not it is proportionate or even “right” in our opinions is utterly irrelevant. What matters is the perceived slight by the Afghans, and how this is spun by the Taliban.


Your contempt for the afghani people is obscene. You honestly didn't think they are even remotely capable of better? It speaks volumes that you mock people for being "surprised" that they are this backwards, for being capable of thinking them better. But for you, it is no more likely that the would be able to stop themselves from killing dozens than it is that the sun in the Sahara would stop being hot. You can't be bothered to consider them as people capable of acting differently, instead you try to work in as many ways of calling the US soldiers are stupid as you can--despite the fact that no one has been saying they were smart.

Oh yes, you don't despise them, you "understand" them "realistically", I know.



if you do not act american you are not in the 21st century... that one is new to me.

Panzer is including more than just Americans when he talks about "our own" priorities, after all there are many countries that are in afghanistan, and western countries share many of the same priorities. If you used the phrase "our own priorities" would you be exclusively referring to some dutch priorities, and implying that the rest of the world was backwards in some nationalistic way? Why would you use the phrase in that way? What's so special about the dutch?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Your contempt for the afghani people is obscene. You honestly didn't think they are even remotely capable of better? It speaks volumes that you mock people for being "surprised" that they are this backwards, for being capable of thinking them better. But for you, it is no more likely that the would be able to stop themselves from killing dozens than it is that the sun in the Sahara would stop being hot.

Well if you enjoy straw so much, don't let me stop you.


You can't be bothered to consider them as people capable of acting differently, instead you try to work in as many ways of calling the US soldiers are stupid as you can--despite the fact that no one has been saying they were smart.

Oh yes, you don't despise them, you "understand" them "realistically", I know.

Some more clutching at, I see. Look, I'm not the posters here who call them savages. I'm not even remotely interested in defending what they did to innocent US service people, and I'm certainly not interested in a morality debate over it.

I do however agree fully with PVC that the Quran holds special value in Afghani society, and that to burn them is going to result in backlash as a matter of course. I full well expect them to be capable of much better, but I don't expect them to hand in a politely worded note of dissent at the US embassy either. From what MRD and other posters have written in Afghanistan, that would be foolishly naive. Therefore, I think the Americans who cry out and going all “look at those savages, I don't know why we're bothering” are utterly misguided.

[Whacker]

No, you're talking past each other. The whining that goes on here is from the exasperated US Americans who are fed up with Afghanistan.

It seems to me most of the whining is the european armchair generals who know far better how things should be going and how to handle things, AND who think that there is an excuse for this idiotic rioting that's going on (education, self-righteous rage, etc etc). Hint: there is none.


Fine, but don't let that deceive you into thinking whatever the USA actually did do for good actually counts for anything. It's just now how the world works. You can do a lot of volunteer work in all sorts of charities, but if you then go to a man's home and start insulting his sainted mother you should not be surprised to get manhandled at some point. Acceptable response? Probably not. To be expected? Why, yes.

Some people keep harping on the fact that the US military is in "someone else's home". We've made it clear why we are there. Now it's time to leave, since the job we came to do is done.


This is protest at a book burning, plain and simple, spun for political gain by the Taliban. Again, whether or not it is proportionate or even “right” in our opinions is utterly irrelevant. What matters is the perceived slight by the Afghans, and how this is spun by the Taliban.

No, what matters is the insane reaction to this action. All attempts to mitigate this or explain why they are doing it are ridiculuously pointless and do nothing but attempt to absolve the rioters from their responsibility.


Put it this way the job of the US military is not to moan and whine about how unfair life is. It's job is (among other things) to accurately assess and mitigate danger. Putting an unstable oil lamp next on the ridge of an open barrel of gunpowder or burn a Quran in a deeply religious, conservative country that so happens to value the Quran as a bed rock of society (and then flip it over or let word get out) is simply not that smart.

How profoundly arrogant, maybe you can get a job in the White House as secretary of defense, or something on the joint chief's staff. I'm sure they'd welcome your insight on what the US military's job really is.


Cultural sensitivity training is not some wishy-washy nancy must-see-through course designed by politically correct ivory tower academics; it is simply a first aid to survive in a foreign country. Disregarding it is like disregarding the advice to bring plenty of fresh water when trekking through the Sahara desert.

All more attempts to excuse their behavior. The reaction is not commensurate with the action.

[Whacker]

and here i was, thinking that France was a civilised country.

You are not just burning a material thing, you are destroying the fundament of their ideals. ok lets go with that.

No, what was "incorrectly disposed of" was a object that contains writing which they then interpret however they feel appropriate. Again, people seem to be missing the point. Objects should never, ever have more value than human life. If someone destroyed the Vietnam War Memorial in the capital, I'd be beyond pissed, and whomever did it should serve life. But I'm not going to take to the streets with all my neighbors, burning and looting as I damn well please about it.


When the students of '66 thought that the government was "destroying" ideals, what did they do? They rose and took to the streets, and I dont think it was all very peacefull. Perhaps the level of violence differed, but that is a gradual difference, and i think you make the difference between civilised and uncivilised principial. so unless France only civilised after '66 or if those people were not civilised people, how does this fit?

or, what about this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot

You're confusing demonstrating vs rioting. Demonstrations do turn into riots occasionally, given the wrong stimuli and circumstances.


hardcore football hooligans were infact "civilised" familymen

Self-contradicting statement.

[The Stranger]

Your contempt for the afghani people is obscene. You honestly didn't think they are even remotely capable of better? It speaks volumes that you mock people for being "surprised" that they are this backwards, for being capable of thinking them better. But for you, it is no more likely that the would be able to stop themselves from killing dozens than it is that the sun in the Sahara would stop being hot. You can't be bothered to consider them as people capable of acting differently, instead you try to work in as many ways of calling the US soldiers are stupid as you can--despite the fact that no one has been saying they were smart.

Oh yes, you don't despise them, you "understand" them "realistically", I know.




Panzer is including more than just Americans when he talks about "our own" priorities, after all there are many countries that are in afghanistan, and western countries share many of the same priorities. If you used the phrase "our own priorities" would you be exclusively referring to some dutch priorities, and implying that the rest of the world was backwards in some nationalistic way? Why would you use the phrase in that way? What's so special about the dutch?

exchange american for western then. and you tell me what is so special about the dutch, i honestly do not know.

[The Stranger]

No, what was "incorrectly disposed of" was a object that contains writing which they then interpret however they feel appropriate. Again, people seem to be missing the point. Objects should never, ever have more value than human life. If someone destroyed the Vietnam War Memorial in the capital, I'd be beyond pissed, and whomever did it should serve life. But I'm not going to take to the streets with all my neighbors, burning and looting as I damn well please about it.

i agree with you here, only it is too simple to talk of just objects. true i wish it was that simple and to you and me it perhaps is, but like i said it is what constitutes the fundament of their ideals. you can say that its not the case or that it ought not be the case, but it is. and for the majority of the people in this world, if you will touch their ideals in a way to destroy them they will rise up and fight, this includes the "civilised" countries. you can then call it demonstration or riot... but one is just an marginally more organised version of the other.



You're confusing demonstrating vs rioting. Demonstrations do turn into riots occasionally, given the wrong stimuli and circumstances.

ask them what it was and they will say it was a demonstration. ask you what it was and it was a riot...




Self-contradicting statement.

many socalled civilised people turn into savages if you place them into a group with a cause or opportunity to misbehave.

[Papewaio]

Last statement first. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan till after the battle of Tora Bora when he escaped into Pakistan.

So like 911 where is the real intel and support comming from? Is it the place we invaded or it's neighbor who gains from the invasion?


You are justifying murdering soldiers over an unintentional act of burning an object or symbol. Do you honestly believe that if you intentionally burn a US flag or bible or Rap CD in L.A. the reaction for that would be to kill you? Really Pape?By now my feelings on religion and my little pony should be quite clear. I do not agree with the murderous rage I just know when jumping in a paddock and pulling the tail of a bull or peeing on an electric fence there will be foreseeable consequences so why do it?

I'm pretty sure given the reputation that I would get shot dead in the wrong neighborhood in LA without having to provoke anyone. The LA riots resulted in 53 dead over a trial outcome. No one died from the beating no holy relics were destroyed.

So using the same stick doesn't that tar All Anericans as savages? I don't think so. That would be a racist accusation and inaccurate too.


Burning and burial of the ashes is the preferable method for dignified disposal of an American flag. An honest mistake taken as desecration? You be the judge. in general it isn't even a jail able offense in Aus. It's just a symbol after all. No one got shoot dead for protesting against Vietnam here either.


However, in Afghanistan:
If you burn our scripture –we’re going to kill you
If you drawl cartoon characters of our prophet – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t convert to our religion – we’re going to kill you
If you don’t let us be tyrants over our people – we’re going to kill you

Am I missing anything?

The catholic church only semi apologized for how Galileo was handled in 1992. 400 years ago a secular conversation over steak could lead you on to the stake. More modern atrocities abound in the name if most systems be it religious or not. Power draws in all sorts. Its quite often not the system it's the end users in charge.

So we bombed them into the stone age yet want them to develop past were western religions stood in the renaissance in a decade. A Chinese saying states that it takes a hundred years to educate a person. After all there parents and grand parents need to be lifted up too.


That is what they are teaching their children, when they're not raping,murdering, starving them that is. There's no winning hearts and minds that are twisted by this kind of logic.
I don't agree with the outcome but it isn't unique to Afghanistan or Islam. Some countries have come further along the track then others but a quick review of most and you will find some pretty horrific practices. Look at Australia and both the Stolen Generation and the Lost Children. Aboriginals were on the wildlife census until 1967. White Australia policy still has supporters and components of that rear it's ugly tendrils over every illegal boat that comes ashore.

Do I think therefore every Aussie is racist? Bit of a logical jump.

[Tellos Athenaios]

It seems to me most of the whining is the european armchair generals who know far better how things should be going and how to handle things, AND who think that there is an excuse for this idiotic rioting that's going on (education, self-righteous rage, etc etc). Hint: there is none.

Yes I would agree. But does it matter what you or I think? I'd submit that it doesn't. It matters a great deal more what the various Afghani who objected think, because they are the people the US has to deal with in what way they can whilst they are in Afghanistan. If they chose to fixate on the evils of the US instead of appreciating the measurable benefits it has brought to the country, then that is actually not their problem -- but “yours”. It is because, you are still there and because, presumably, you want to minimise the cost of your stay in terms of lives. What is so difficult to grasp here? That is going to be a heck of a lot easier if you don't provide the sparks to lingering anti-US violence, what is so difficult to understand about that?

I don't disagree it would be better for the US to get out and save themselves from the madness ASAP.

But right now, at this point you're simply not engaged in a war of right & wrong; by and large neither morality nor sanity are part of the equation at all... By contrast politics, and especially internal Afghan politics are the very essence of the game. I thought that was largely the takeaway message from pretty much all of MRD's posts about the subject of Afghanistan. Political capital matters a great deal more than our cosy little Internet debate about what presumed moral failings we can read into each others lines.


Some people keep harping on the fact that the US military is in "someone else's home". We've made it clear why we are there. Now it's time to leave, since the job we came to do is done.


No, what matters is the insane reaction to this action. All attempts to mitigate this or explain why they are doing it are ridiculuously pointless and do nothing but attempt to absolve the rioters from their responsibility.


All more attempts to excuse their behavior. The reaction is not commensurate with the action.

Again, why do you think any of that is actually relevant ?



How profoundly arrogant, maybe you can get a job in the White House as secretary of defense, or something on the joint chief's staff. I'm sure they'd welcome your insight on what the US military's job really is.

You disagree with the notion the US military has (a) to do risk assessment and (b) by now should be aware that as long as you are still in Afghanistan, you do have to thread carefully because as has been observed before you don't have much goodwill to fall back on? You disagree with the notion that burning a Quran is not likely to endear you to the wider populace, that some form of public outcry is to be expected?

So which is the correct choice to make: (1) burn the books, then act all outraged at this disproportionate backlash, or (2) not burn the books. Was going with option (1) worth it? You be the judge of that.

At the end of the day, a number of Afghanis are outraged, the Taliban gets fresh ammunition for their propaganda and US service people get shot in “retalliation”, a number of Americans post outraged posts on an Internet forum and a bunch of Europeans think “yes, well, what did you expect?”, which somehow the Americans seem to find almost even more insulting.

Quite clearly in this instance, whoever let those Qurans burn miscalculated; and as some posters so eloquently put it now the US service people reap the whirlwind, too. Justified? Not in my opinion, but as I submitted before what I think about it is as relevant as the strawmen Sasaki will doubtlessly try and put up next.

[Husar]

It seems to me most of the whining is the european armchair generals who know far better how things should be going and how to handle things, AND who think that there is an excuse for this idiotic rioting that's going on (education, self-righteous rage, etc etc). Hint: there is none.

There's also a difference between an excuse and an explanation.
Since you're obviously referring to my post, you may want to go back and check what I wrote instead of claiming that I made excuses when I didn't.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well if you enjoy straw so much, don't let me stop you.

Some more clutching at, I see. Look, I'm not the posters here who call them savages. I'm not even remotely interested in defending what they did to innocent US service people, and I'm certainly not interested in a morality debate over it.

I do however agree fully with PVC that the Quran holds special value in Afghani society, and that to burn them is going to result in backlash as a matter of course. I full well expect them to be capable of much better, but I don't expect them to hand in a politely worded note of dissent at the US embassy either. From what MRD and other posters have written in Afghanistan, that would be foolishly naive. Therefore, I think the Americans who cry out and going all “look at those savages, I don't know why we're bothering” are utterly misguided.

If there was a case where a girl was molested at a frat party, and someone kept insisting that what was really important was how stupid she was for getting drunk, and that how bad the frat boys were wasn't relevant, you would ask why...

You have no interest in criticizing the Afghani's, but have an extreme interest in criticizing the American soldiers. So the question is why.

It's perfectly clear that this was an uninteresting accident by a few people. On the other hand, the widespread protests in which dozens have died is important regarding the situation in the country...it's clearly a major political issue, part of the ongoing debate in this country about our long standing doubts about the feasibility of nation building, and the coming US election could have a major effect on what happens there. It's obvious which topic is more important an interesting.

The only thing repeating stuff that everyone knows about the Afghans (the Quran holds special value) and about the burning (bad idea) does is give you an excuse to vent your prejudice.

[Tellos Athenaios]

If there was a case where a girl was molested at a frat party, and someone kept insisting that what was really important was how stupid she was for getting drunk, and that how bad the frat boys were wasn't relevant, you would ask why...:laugh4:

Wait, you're not serious are you? The US army, a molested girl at a frat party? :laugh4:

As for the rest: you're still not getting it. Your uninteresting little incident, is in fact the reason for your “interesting” one, and as the cynical British doctor might point out, usually the root cause is much more interesting than the symptoms. As in this case, because the root cause may well indicate what is to happen next.

Or, if you thought that a bunch of shootings were the worst of it; you're likely wrong. There will be more backlash the US army will have to face in trying to do its job in Afghanistan. I don't think it did wonders for how cooperative the Afghani tribal elders are, let alone for the safety of the US servicemen and women, not to mention USA's wider strategic interest/stakes in the Afghan politics game.

By contrast, in this context your USA-centric viewpoint is completely besides the point, again. Who gives a toss about what impact it'll have on the elections? (Read: what real world impact will that have on the US forces in Afghanistan or their retreat?) How are the US elections even remotely relevant to the subject?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

:laugh4:

Wait, you're not serious are you? The US army, a molested girl at a frat party? :laugh4:

As for the rest: you're still not getting it. Your uninteresting little incident, is in fact the reason for your “interesting” one, and as the cynical British doctor might point out, usually the root cause is much more interesting than the symptoms. As in this case, because the root cause may well indicate what is to happen next.

Or, if you thought that a bunch of shootings were the worst of it; you're likely wrong. There will be more backlash the US army will have to face in trying to do its job in Afghanistan. I don't think it did wonders for how cooperative the Afghani tribal elders are, let alone for the safety of the US servicemen and women, not to mention USA's wider strategic interest/stakes in the Afghan politics game.

The root cause was was some koran's being burnt. The reason why the Koran's were burnt is unknown for sure, but seems to be nothing more than an uninteresting mistake, you can easily predict that with this many people living in a sensitive culture there will be some incident. What was going through the soldiers heads? Is it important? No. The effect is what is interesting--as you say "what happens next". How can you say that the root cause is more interesting than the symptoms, and then say that it's because the root cause indicates what the symptoms will be, and then talk about the symptoms a bunch?

You are only interested in the burning because it gives you an excuse to talk about how stupid you think the US military is...


By contrast, in this context your USA-centric viewpoint is completely besides the point, again. Who gives a toss about what impact it'll have on the elections? (Read: what real world impact will that have on the US forces in Afghanistan or their retreat?) How are the US elections even remotely relevant to the subject?

"The US election could have an effect on what happens there"

Depending on who is elected, the Afghan strategy might change. Isn't it obvious how it's relevant?


At the end of the day, a number of Afghanis are outraged, the Taliban gets fresh ammunition for their propaganda and US service people get shot in “retalliation”, a number of Americans post outraged posts on an Internet forum and a bunch of Europeans think “yes, well, what did you expect?”,

In your imagination, Americans didn't know that burning a Koran would offend the afghani's and that there would be a backlash of some sort. Think about that for a second. This is why I called you prejudiced...

If it was a story about a murder in a poor black neighborhood, would you start saying things like "my god, what did those naive black people expect living in a neighborhood like that?" Naturally not...you wouldn't assume they were ignorant. But I suppose since you tried to brush off the other analogy with "lol, so the US army is a molested girl??" you'll brush of this one too. You'll probably explain in a painstaking way that it isn't a direct analogy.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The root cause was was some koran's being burnt. The reason why the Koran's were burnt is unknown for sure, but seems to be nothing more than an uninteresting mistake, you can easily predict that with this many people living in a sensitive culture there will be some incident. What was going through the soldiers heads? Is it important? No.

Think of what you're writing: debugging the system and it's procedural checks is not important? Really?


Depending on who is elected, the Afghan strategy might change. Isn't it obvious how it's relevant?

Depending on who is elected... in half a year's time! This incident isn't going to make or break an election, what it is going to do however is chalk one up the long list of “scores” to settle for disgruntled Afghans (especially those in the Afghan forces). This is far more important, because they actually have the means and the ability to settle them, and half a year is plenty of time in which to do so.

So what change is going to happen because of who gets elected then? The US stay longer? The US leave sooner? Any such decision will practically have to wait until this time next year, or so, inauguration and everything... Beside a fundamental, meaningful change of plan, seems rather unlikely now: with public support for the war in Afghanistan so low.


In your imagination, Americans didn't know that burning a Koran would offend the afghani's and that there would be a backlash of some sort. Think about that for a second. This is why I called you prejudiced...

See this is why you really shouldn't try to read things into other peoples posts that aren't there: as in this case, you're so often wrong.

[The Stranger]

You are only interested in the burning because it gives you an excuse to talk about how stupid you think the US military is...

you are only interested in the riot to say how savage afghani are compared to the model civilised people on the setting side of the sun.


how about this analogy china occupies america to root out mexican and south-american drugbarons hiding there. they bomb the rockies, accidentally kill some civilians, introduce chinese culture because that is obviously the most superior one in the world, and just before they decide to leave after like 10 years of "occupation" and arguably having left the country in a worse state than when they came, they burn the original copy of the founding fathers manuscript (dunno if it exists, but lets assume that it does), what do you think those americans will do?

you can say whatever you want and there is no excusing certain deeds but its too simple to say they are just savage rioteers and they should chillax, smoke some opium and go back to their caves. was the boston tea party a civilised act of demonstration or a savage riot? at the time it would depend who you asked, now its the birth (or inpregnating) of a nation. the uprisings in egypt, lybia etc, violent demonstrations? or savage riots? or victory of the western ideals in the middle east aka march towards civilisation?

anyway the better analogy for your black neighbourhood story would be this, white european hipster immigration into harlem, then one couple for whatever reasons burns the civil rights act and the abolition of slavery (or similar literature). they are discovered by the local black garbageman or bum (whatever spices up your story) and there is a massive uproar.
some things get thrashed, the couple gets murdered bladibladibla.

now there is no excuse for the violent outbreak, yet wouldnt you say that what the couple did was ignorant?

[rory_20_uk]

... they burn the original copy of the founding fathers manuscript (dunno if it exists, but lets assume that it does), what do you think those americans will do?

Hardly apples with apples is it? No one has bombed Mecca. It would be like destroying a copy of the founding father's manuscript, and one that was defaced to allow it to be used to communicate with others surreptitiously.

~:smoking:

[The Stranger]

make it a dozen of all the religious books in america then, same thing will happen.

in europe nobody will care so obviously europeans are the most civilised people in the world... we invited civilisation as a way to troll barbarians, it just got out of hand...

[HoreTore]

make it a dozen of all the religious books in america then, same thing will happen.

in europe nobody will care so obviously europeans are the most civilised people in the world... we invited civilisation as a way to troll barbarians, it just got out of hand...

We here in Europe have not been occupied by a foreign invader for the last decade. The situations cannot be compared. Like I have tried to say previously, this is not about the Quran. This is about growing discontent and hate towards a foreign occupation. Burning the Quran was seen as an insult, and it simply acted as a spark to ignite the underlying feelings of hate.

If you want to compare it to Europe, you'll need to go back to the 40's and ask yourself what would happen if the nazi's in some way insulted or desecrated a national symbol of an occupied country. Like if they toppled the Eiffel Tower in '42.

[The Stranger]

that comment was in jest...

[Fragony]

We here in Europe have not been occupied by a foreign invader for the last decade. The situations cannot be compared. Like I have tried to say previously, this is not about the Quran. This is about growing discontent and hate towards a foreign occupation. Burning the Quran was seen as an insult, and it simply acted as a spark to ignite the underlying feelings of hate.

If you want to compare it to Europe, you'll need to go back to the 40's and ask yourself what would happen if the nazi's in some way insulted or desecrated a national symbol of an occupied country. Like if they toppled the Eiffel Tower in '42.

Ya. Is there a greater insult possible than a invading power burning your holy books. They are angry and I don't blame them one bit, and yeah we do things differently but I don't remember them asking for our guidance. It's just stupid stupid stupid

[Vladimir]

I'm moving a little slow but are people saying that killing people is wrong and that we should kill people until they stop killing us?

[rory_20_uk]

Pretty much...

It seems to be that there are two solutions. One is to kill everyone, the other is to leave them to it.

The first is from a practical point difficult to undertake, as geographically the area is large and there are many places to hide. There is also no clear edge that one can use, and the resentment that would arise from those in surrounding areas would be immense. Judging by some of the posts here, getting teams to undertake the exercise might not be as difficult as some might think.

The second therefore seems to be the best long term approach. Continuing with the half way house that is being pursued is not only massively expensive, but is also probably counter-productive.

~:smoking:

[rory_20_uk]

Duplicate.

[Slyspy]

Leave or slaughter the people, burn their homes and sow the fields with salt? A choice which all empires have to make eventually.

[rvg]

Leave or slaughter the people, burn their homes and sow the fields with salt? A choice which all empires have to make eventually.

Why "or"? "And"!

[Fragony]

Why "or"? "And"!

And for what? Why so upset this is self-eflicted violence. Just think of what you are actually saying. Just because they grew up without running water doesn't make Afghans total idiots

[rvg]

Because the Taliban will inevitably take over. After they've established a grip on the country and paraded Karzai with his balls in his mouth they'll inevitably try to expand their influence. Wrecking that country even further will leave them with fewer resources to use against their neighbors (and us).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Or, you know, do it properly and stay the 20-30 years it takes to pacify a country.

I know PJ thinks little of British soldiers, but if you want an object lesson on Counter Terrorism you should read up on Operation Banner.

[rvg]

Or, you know, do it properly and stay the 20-30 years it takes to pacify a country.

I know PJ thinks little of British soldiers, but if you want an object lesson on Counter Terrorism you should read up on Operation Banner.

Nah, not worth it. I don't feel like spending neither my money nor the lives of my compatriots on the Afghans.

[rory_20_uk]

Or, you know, do it properly and stay the 20-30 years it takes to pacify a country.

I know PJ thinks little of British soldiers, but if you want an object lesson on Counter Terrorism you should read up on Operation Banner.

Northern Ireland / Ireland in general is a lot smaller than Afghanistan.
Although there were those trying to derail the peace in Ireland, the players trying to do so in Afghanistan are far more numerous.
People in Ireland have an economy (or sorts). Afghanistan barely has a functioning economy. What they have is based around illegal crops of opium
Ireland had a functioning system of government. Afghanistan's government is corrupt from top to bottom, and is from inception not trusted by the people.
At least a decent percentage of those in Northern Ireland didn't view the soldiers as invaders / crusaders. This is rarely the case in Afghanistan.
The Irish and English speak similar languages in the main, have similar faiths and barring episodes of Irish logic, make sense to each other. Rarely the case in Afghanistan.

Pakistan, after close to 60 years has failed to integrate the Northern Tribal Areas. They have similar ethnic backgrounds, similar religions and even with twice as long there is little if any improvement. How would be manage to sort out a vastly bigger area with such massive cultural gulfs?

And as RVG said, at the end of the day, it ain't worth it.

~:smoking:

[Papewaio]

Ireland & England separation is akin to what happened with India and Pakistan separation.

Afghanistan is also similar to post WWII Marshall plans and what happened in Japan. However Japan had a much more educated populace that was a democracy Pre-war. So it was in a much better starting point. The people were defeated, half starved and obeyed their Emperor.

I also suspect rules of occupation in Japan were far more harsh. Japanese swords and other weapons, heirlooms or not, had to be surrended. Did the same thing happen in Afghanistan? Samurai had their swords taken why not the Afghans AKs?

Simply put we are not ruthless enough to be Imperial Japan, not are we tough enough to handle the long haul to properly fix the situation.

The burning of the Korans was malicious it was stupid.
The riots were a logical outcome given what happened when a crackpot burnt a koran last year.

The response to the protestors probably should have been apologize, crackdown on any violence, curfew and more patrols.

[PanzerJaeger]

Or, you know, do it properly and stay the 20-30 years it takes to pacify a country.

I know PJ thinks little of British soldiers, but if you want an object lesson on Counter Terrorism you should read up on Operation Banner.

I think little of the British military as an operational force. British soldiers are among the best in the world. It is the leadership and establishment they operate under that often lets them down. It has been a common theme since the world wars at least. One of the major issues the British had in Iraq was trying to apply poorly reasoned lessons from Operation Banner to a Middle Eastern insurgency and then arrogantly holding fast to those lessons in the face of obvious failure. The leadership showed no ability or even willingness to adapt. :thinking:

[Fragony]

Because the Taliban will inevitably take over. After they've established a grip on the country and paraded Karzai with his balls in his mouth they'll inevitably try to expand their influence. Wrecking that country even further will leave them with fewer resources to use against their neighbors (and us).

Let India and Russia worry about that

[gaelic cowboy]

I suppose what Operation Banner shows is you eventually have to do a deal of some kind so in the end some kind of Taliban entity if not the actual one will be allowed back inside.

There was a cartoon here a few years back which showed Gerry Adams, Yasser Arafat an Bin Laden the word terrorist was crossed out and replaced with diplomat while Bin laden was just smiling saying "Give it time".

Bin Laden wont get his chance but we cant discount others of his ilk being let inside the tent one day.

[rvg]

Let India and Russia worry about that

I was actually thinking about Pakistan. With the Pakistani taliban already causing trouble the addition of taliban-controlled Afghanistan might further destabilize the current government in Islamabad. Pakistan has nukes, we cannot afford to let it descend into chaos or be taken over by the taliban.

[gaelic cowboy]

I was actually thinking about Pakistan. With the Pakistani taliban already causing trouble the addition of taliban-controlled Afghanistan might further destabilize the current government in Islamabad. Pakistan has nukes, we cannot afford to let it descend into chaos or be taken over by the taliban.

Once the Americans leave the Pakistanni Taliban will be turned on the Indians as they were always meant to be.(an they will be happy to do it)

[rvg]

Once the Americans leave the Pakistanni Taliban will be turned on the Indians as they were always meant to be.(an they will be happy to do it)

I doubt it. Pakistan has groups that are fighting against India, but none of those guys are associated with taliban. Taliban is more interested in talibanizing Pakistan before anything else.

[Fragony]

I was actually thinking about Pakistan. With the Pakistani taliban already causing trouble the addition of taliban-controlled Afghanistan might further destabilize the current government in Islamabad. Pakistan has nukes, we cannot afford to let it descend into chaos or be taken over by the taliban.

I was thinking about Pakistan as well, India's problem not yours. All you got to do is look the other way and leave it to those less interested in human rights, they are already used to that anyway

[Centurion1]

I was thinking about Pakistan as well, India's problem not yours. All you got to do is look the other way and leave it to those less interested in human rights, they are already used to that anyway

That's just naive. Radical Islamic's willing to give or sell nukes to the highest bidder are most certainly a threat to the entire world. Foolishness like the prior statement are how tragedies happen. 'Let someone else deal with it' just leads to ruin.

[Major Robert Dump]

And in other news, Afghans violate Islamic law by:
killing each other over trivial issues, openly engaging in homosexuality, committing adultery, making crude and sexual comments and actions towards western women, stealing from other muslims (stealing from infidels is okay, though)

Let me put this event in context, from a guy about to leave the country for the second time in two years, since the press is pretty much unwilling to report these matters factually....

The books in question were, by muslim standards, already desecrated by the inmates of a highly controversial prison. Some had pages ripped out to be used as fire kindling or message paper. Others had been written on and defaced in an attempt to pass messages between inmates. It was the Afghan interpeters who discovered this. Upon deciding what to do with confiscated items, AFGHANS suggested they just be trashed.

In fact, the burning of a Koran is a perfectly acceptable method of retirement, it's just that it is usually done by a holy man rather than a guy making $10 a day burning trash. In fact, when the boosk were discovered the trash detail didn't even know what they were because, ya know, they can't read, and an interpreter informed them that they were desecrated Korans. Meanhwhile, no one protests the jerks who defaced them to begin with....

I might also add that in RC East, several times this year, Korans have been found planted in the trash at various FOBs, except they are found by NATO troops who take them and report the matter. Why do I say planted? Well, I suppose there is small, miniscule possibility that some sociopathic soldier did this...afterall, there have been a very minute number of troops who do things like kill civilians for sport and rape, but the chances this is a soldier trying to rile up the locals is so small it is negligible. Furthermore, these Plants are always done at facilites where the trash passes through Afghan hands, never at facilites where the trahs is incierated by soldiers. And finally, in a couple of cases, prints have been lifted (we take this seriously) and it is discovered the perp was an Afghan who worked on the FOB. This has not gotten more press because, well, it would not be very COIN to fire the guy then have his government execute him or a MOB kill his family. The political fallout is not worth the hassle, because you would inevitabely get conspiracy accusations.

I really cannot put this into any more context. I see all sorts of retarded accusations on these boards, like we have killed millions of Afghans (there arent even millions to kill). Imagine the accusations from illiterate people fueld by Taliban and HAqqani-organized flash mobs. Several of the NATO murders have been fueld by these very accusations: the massacre of NATO troops in the airport almost two years ago, and the killing of NATO troops in Kabul almost a year ago today, are both examples of consiracies out of control... the people who did this accused NATO of providing weapons to the Taliban to keep the war going, cuz, ya know, we are making so much money from this place. The troops blew off the perps (in both cases they were Afghan intelligence police, who have deep ties with Pakistan) and the perps shot the troops in the back as they walked away.

2 years ago, a Haqqani operative gave a bag of grenades to a kid going to a humanitarian aid free-for-all. The bag blew up and injured atwo soldiers and killed some kids. Flash mobs ensued saying that we blew the kids up. Nevermind it makes no sense, that soldiers would organize a food handout so they could blow themselves up along with some kids. The flashmobs happened, people believed it

The Mobs at the bases were flash mobs. All over BAF, Kandahar, Jbad nd others, there are plenty of places to protest where troops and press will see the protesters...all over the FOB, just a chain link fence, but instead they protest at the gate where virtually no troops, no press and very few Afghans can see. Why? Because they want to scare people from coming to work.

Operations were shut down all over the country. We got calls on the base all day from Afghans who wanted us to come pick them up for work because they did not want to pass through the mob and be treated like strike-breakers. And in a true show of the welfare entitlement state we have created, some Afghans are petitioning us for lost wages from the days off work. And the really bold ones are also trying to get us to re-imburse them for meals since on work days we feed them breakfast lunch and dinner. Classy, eh?

The sad part about this is that the kids in my class (I have 2 classes, 30 boys and 30 girls, 3rd grade, 4-10 years old) understand this issue far better than the average farmer. Maybe that's because they can read.

Nevermind the thousands of new roads, the irrigation and man made bodies of water, the half a million wells, the thousands of new school, the hundreds of thousands of girls in school, the military hospitals that at any given time are 40% full of Afghans for medical issues from cleft pallets, to asthma to typhoid to cholera to malaria to STDs to pre and post natal care, nevermind the amount of money spent on infrastructure here is greater than the GDP of Afghanistan in its entire history combined. Nevermind all that.

What we have is an Afghan government that has more sympathy for their muslim enemy than their non-muslim ally. Thats what it boils down to, and what it always will boil down to.

Some want us to leave, but even those want the moneyand the high-end military support to stay. I am not naieve enough to believe that everyone who wants us to stay really care about us and appreciate us. Again, we give them jobs, food and money, so of course we are their "friends." We also have an enemy who has matured their IO themes and outright deny that things were bad before we came, they tout their human rights records as saying the world just never gave them a chance to get the government running and put women in school, and they blame every IED that kills civilians on NATO.

Were the events of this Koran thing a series of poor decisions? Absolutely. Despite all the cultural training that is shoved down our throat (and it was technically a violation of General Order 1), it happened. And the response has been ridiculous but not surprising.

I don't know what to do here. I don't have any advice. I just clear the roads in the morning so the buses can get to school and the people can get to work and then do it again in the evening, because if I didn't, people would get blown up. So instead we get blown up. Perhaps the most surreal thing I have ever experienced was finishing up a clean-up of a post-IED event where one of our people were killed, and after the MEDEVAC took her away and we were standing there covered in blood and dirt and waiting for the wrecker, a bus full fo girls that come to the school on our base drove by and they all waved at us, completely unaware of what just happened. I waved back, bloody hands and all. Lovely world, ain't it?

[rory_20_uk]

There is finite money for redevelopment. In some areas, seed capital can enable the locals to improve, thus gearing one's investment. In Afghanistan, it appears to be quite the opposite where there is vast attrition with money vanishing from corruption and endemic hostility.

Spend it elsewhere, where there will be lasting good. Afghanistan has had its chance, and frankly has blown it. When everywhere else has had their go with such vast funds, perhaps they can have another shot.

~:smoking: