My generation might be broken. (UC protests)

[a completely inoffensive name]

Today is March 1st. For the University of California system this day has been long expected as the "Day of Action". Student across all the campuses are protesting against high tuition and demand for greater access to public education.
http://www.dailycal.org/2012/02/29/students-from-uc-campuses-around-the-state-to-join-in-protests/


My university has two intersections that are choke points for entering. All roads flow through them, the students since 4am have blocked off both entrances at the two intersections effectively shutting down the university for the day. My labs and discussion sections got canceled for today and now I am without an education on March 1st because students are protesting for more education.

[Centurion1]

Our generation is entitled and spoiled. Even more worrisome is this generations belief that everyone 'deserves' a college education.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Our generation is entitled and spoiled. Even more worrisome is this generations belief that everyone 'deserves' a college education.

This is where I have no idea what side of the spectrum I am on. My anecdotal evidence tells me that most of our generation is spoiled, but a good 30-40% is not. But the idea that everyone is not entitled to a college education leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Vladimir]

Is it broken or just making more noise?

Everybody wants more than the people before them had and I don't think this is nearly as bad as the '60s was.

[Strike For The South]

Our generation is entitled and spoiled. Even more worrisome is this generations belief that everyone 'deserves' a college education.

Says the man in college

Vocational training certainly has merit and one can make solid money doing it. However any job in America worth something requires education beyond high school, hell vocational training costs money too. There has been a fundemental shift in the economy in the last generation and it now requries more education for more specialized tasks. Jobs that didn't require a college degree now do.

While a four year degree may not be absolutely neccessary and assc. or vocational training is and those cost.

Now I disagree with the plan of action undertaken by the UC students but they do strike a point. Starting off an entire generation in a hole to get an entry level job probably isn't the best way to build an economy.

[Centurion1]

This is where I have no idea what side of the spectrum I am on. My anecdotal evidence tells me that most of our generation is spoiled, but a good 30-40% is not. But the idea that everyone is not entitled to a college education leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


Says the man in college

Vocational training certainly has merit and one can make solid money doing it. However any job in America worth something requires education beyond high school, hell vocational training costs money too. There has been a fundemental shift in the economy in the last generation and it now requries more education for more specialized tasks. Jobs that didn't require a college degree now do.

While a four year degree may not be absolutely neccessary and assc. or vocational training is and those cost.

Now I disagree with the plan of action undertaken by the UC students but they do strike a point. Starting off an entire generation in a hole to get an entry level job probably isn't the best way to build an economy.

Sad fact of the matter is that some people simply are not smart enough. However, they go through life being told they can be whatever they want when maybe they would just be better off going into blue collar work or manual labor.

I got into college and my parents did not pay to send me here. Regardless of ROTC the financial burden would have been very light. And I worked hard to get there.

That being said college educations are heinously overpriced and this is a serious issue.

[Strike For The South]

Sad fact of the matter is that some people simply are not smart enough. However, they go through life being told they can be whatever they want when maybe they would just be better off going into blue collar work or manual labor.

I got into college and my parents did not pay to send me here. Regardless of ROTC the financial burden would have been very light. And I worked hard to get there.

That being said college educations are heinously overpriced and this is a serious issue.

Many blue collar jobs require an extended period of time in schooling these days.

The last point is something I agree with

[Centurion1]

Many blue collar jobs require an extended period of time in schooling these days.

The last point is something I agree with

I was trying to find a way to word that better to be completely honest. I am in no way trying to bash blue collar jobs. I often lament with my mother (a teacher) when students parents will try to force them into higher level courses and make them try to be competitive in the college game when they really simply cant handle it. These kids would often be better performing in classes that fit them and then going into a career that fits what their skills are. My uncle is a plumber and the man makes well over 100k a year. My cousin is a mechanic and he does well. etc., etc.

Some people are more suited for different things and this country needs to stop pushing everyone MUST have a college education to even lead a comfortable life. Christ the dude who made my omelet today was telling me about a class he took when he was in college. Overkill much?

[gaelic cowboy]

Our generation is entitled and spoiled.


Does every generation not think this

[Strike For The South]

I was trying to find a way to word that better to be completely honest. I am in no way trying to bash blue collar jobs. I often lament with my mother (a teacher) when students parents will try to force them into higher level courses and make them try to be competitive in the college game when they really simply cant handle it. These kids would often be better performing in classes that fit them and then going into a career that fits what their skills are. My uncle is a plumber and the man makes well over 100k a year. My cousin is a mechanic and he does well. etc., etc. [QUOTE

But to become a mechanic or a plumber still costs. Now I realize certain things are worth investing in but the prestige level is also at play here. Not saying it's right but this generation and there parents are of the mindset that no college degree+vocational labor=failure.

Through college I have butchered meat. I can take apart cuts with the best of them. If I stuck with it I could make damn good money. My mother and father would probably jump off a bridge

[QUOTE]Some people are more suited for different things and this country needs to stop pushing everyone MUST have a college education to even lead a comfortable life. Christ the dude who made my omelet today was telling me about a class he took when he was in college. Overkill much?

You and PJ should hang out

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think the push for more available higher education as an end in and of itself has led to a pretty huge disconnect between the education system and the economy.

If you will forgive the archaic terminology, it feels almost like the solution to the inequality of the past few generations has been to try to make everybody middle-class. Give working-class kids education so they can further themselves and step up the social ladder. Right?

Well... wrong. The economy just isn't ready for a 100% white-collar work force. So really by sending so many people to college and university, all we've done is create a generation with high qualifications and matching expectations... but we've not developed the economy to match.

I have a four year univesity degree with First Class Honours and about 8 months after graduating I still work for minimum wage. In my parents generation, even if you had a 2:1, that was unheard of.

I completely agree with the thread title that this generation is broken, at least when it comes to their prospects in the workplace. Few graduates will meet their career expectations, and if you aren't a graduate, then its a hell of a job getting work where they will actually give you a solid, full-time contract that gives you the financial stablility you need in life. And that's if you are lucky enough to get a job. And even if you do, you can expect to do months of work at a wage level that is in fact illegal (people only get jobseekers allowance for doing work placements of several weeks... the company then recycles onto the next person).

The whole thing just sucks right now. It's just the case of a corrupt political system letting big business run riot. We should wall up the borders, cripple multinational corporations and tip the balance of power back in favour of the workers over the employers.

People can laugh and say that what I am saying is reactionary and unrealistic and would cripple growth etc. But the growth you've been seeing over the past few decades is going to come with a massive, massive social cost. Economic growth can only bring financial stability when people know that the companies are tied to them... whether that is through their skills, trade restrictions, or an interdependent economy. When companies can just up stakes and move everything to Kazakhstan, that's really no good for anybody, they just leave a trail of destruction behind them. If things continue then we are going to reap the whirlwind in the next couple of generations.

[rvg]

...The economy just isn't ready for a 100% white-collar work force. So really by sending so many people to college and university, all we've done is create a generation with high qualifications and matching expectations... but we've not developed the economy to match.

I disagree. In fact I'll go as far as saying that there's a shortage of college-trained professionals. The problem is not with the economy but rather with the choices that the college kids make these days: too many people studying journalism, philosophy, sociology, arts and other assorted bullcrap, while science, engineering, physics and other majors that actually matter get left behind. As a result we have college grads with a so called "degree" in some useless humanitarian subject working as waiters and baristas. Higher education is first and foremost an investment. Those who invest in bullcrap majors are merely reaping what they sow.

[Vladimir]

I disagree. In fact I'll go as far as saying that there's a shortage of college-trained professionals. The problem is not with the economy but rather with the choices that the college kids make these days: too many people studying journalism, philosophy, sociology, arts and other assorted bullcrap, while science, engineering, physics and other majors that actually matter get left behind. As a result we have college grads with a so called "degree" in some useless humanitarian subject working as waiters and baristas. Higher education is first and foremost and investment. Those who invest in bullcrap majors are merely reaping what they sow.

That's an excellent point and reinforced by the recent Occupy protests. Many of them had unmarketable degrees. We import professionals from all over the world to supply our demand.

[a completely inoffensive name]

A lot of people who try to get into STEM majors get burned out on courses that are specifically meant to be burn out courses. Also, our current high school education does not prepare people for STEM majors adequately.

Also, there is too much social stigma associated with subjects that people pigeon hole themselves.

EDIT:

In summary:

1. Universities are broken.
2. High school is broken
3. society is broken.

[Vladimir]

1. Universities are broken.
2. High school is broken
3. society is broken.
4. ?????
5. Profit

[Tellos Athenaios]

Does every generation not think this

No it's usually the parents who think that nonsense about their children.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I disagree. In fact I'll go as far as saying that there's a shortage of college-trained professionals. The problem is not with the economy but rather with the choices that the college kids make these days: too many people studying journalism, philosophy, sociology, arts and other assorted bullcrap, while science, engineering, physics and other majors that actually matter get left behind. As a result we have college grads with a so called "degree" in some useless humanitarian subject working as waiters and baristas. Higher education is first and foremost an investment. Those who invest in bullcrap majors are merely reaping what they sow.

You also have a lot of crap college curricula, so even the STEM types will have to accept flipping burgers because their degree is worthless.

Example: CS. Usually a CS degree tends to confer some degree of prestige. Except when it's a US degree. If you want to escape the stigma of US (= glorified code monkey) on your CS degree you had better not graduate from the wrong college or university, many are regarded as simply not up to snuff by international standards. This isn't just some chauvinism on my part or something, for some time now American companies have preferred to hire foreign graduates to US ones. (The foreigners can on average get better wages & benefits, too.)

[a completely inoffensive name]

This is just disgusting. Someone tried to drive through the main entrance and found himself surrounded by angry teenagers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=iM50hJy62Xs

[ICantSpellDawg]

These kids don't realize that educations are now free and at their fingertips. Get a cheap, BS degree and learn everything you've ever wanted to learn afterwards.

www.AcademicEarth.org (http://www.AcademicEarth.org)
www.LearersTV.com (http://www.LearersTV.com)
http://www.khanacademy.org/
http://books.google.com/
https://www.youtube.com/education

[Strike For The South]

This is just disgusting. Someone tried to drive through the main entrance and found himself surrounded by angry teenagers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=iM50hJy62Xs

Some people need to be taken out back and forced to wear frilly pink tutus.

[Whacker]

These kids don't realize that educations are now free and at their fingertips. Get a cheap, BS degree and learn everything you've ever wanted to learn afterwards.

www.AcademicEarth.org (http://www.AcademicEarth.org)
www.LearersTV.com (http://www.LearersTV.com)
http://www.khanacademy.org/
http://books.google.com/
https://www.youtube.com/education

The problem is employers don't buy that. Nor do I, for that matter.

Consider that a decade or so ago, during the height of the dot com era, people were graduating with degrees in things like history or philosophy and going right into high tech jobs and succeeding. There are a few reasons, the most common of which were that getting into tech degrees was cutthroat and very hard at best, people could take tech courses yet major in something else and be reasonably able to do the job details, and there was a lack of skilled employees who could do the work. Supply was much lower than demand.

Today, there are tons and tons of highly skilled tech workers, and the economy sucks. Supply is probably on par with, or greater than demand. There are tons of those "get your AS or BS degree in a few months!" or "get a computer job in a few weeks!" bullcrap training programs spitting out "high tech workers" like clockwork. The problem is that there are so many of these "lower quality" workers seeking jobs, it's become harder and harder to weed them out of the interview process early so employers aren't "wasting their time" with them. Hence, the increase in credentials required, most of which all require some accredited, recognized 4 year bachelor program as a basic requirement.

Where this begins to rub is people don't feel that a 4 year degree is a requirement and they can easily perform the same as people graduating with a BS degree. In my direct experience, and given the trend, the industries' as well, this doesn't hold up under scrutiny or pressure. So, employers are going to look for folks with degrees and good grades from respectable universities for their entry level jobs. This means that everyone who did the "8 week learn microsoft windows!" fly by night programs and the University of Phoenix Online graduates are out of luck.

All said and done though, I do think higher education is getting to be ridiculously overpriced. I've always got my tin foil hat on, but I see the biggest losers are the middle class in America. Poor folks can always get scholarships or financial aid much more easily due to socioeconomic status. Rich people don't feel any hit at all to their purses as it's a drop in the bank. Middle class people on the other hand are screwed, because they aren't broke enough to get good aid, the few aid options that exist often come with very heavy strings attached (military service?), and the families aren't near rich enough not to feel a big impact to their finances by putting multiple kids through college. In general, it seems the middle class is losing the battle for survival in the US these days when it comes to anything, like education, taxes, etc. The poor always get breaks because that's just how it is (not that being poor is desirable at all), the rich have tons of breaks they get and they're loaded to begin with, but the middle guy always seems to get screwed.

Edit - In hindsight, I only talked about the tech industry. One isn't going to be able to get a 4 year degree in history and then go off and get a medical education or law education on youtube. Accredited university programs exist for a reason.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Edit - In hindsight, I only talked about the tech industry. One isn't going to be able to get a 4 year degree in history and then go off and get a medical education or law education on youtube. Accredited university programs exist for a reason.

Accreditation exists for a reason, but it makes no utilitarian sense why it would be expensive. The educations is cheap approaching free. You are paying 60-120k for a piece of paper and a certificate that you've completed courses and to rub elbows with wealthy and promising contacts. This is nonsense, specifically for the degrees held by the vast majority of people. I can assure you that if someone took online courses and certified tests substantiating some mastery, they would have as good of a liberal arts education as anyone I've ever met, for example.

Education's cost trajectory has been approaching zero since the printing press and the baseline is finally approaching. Everyone should have an inexpensive, high quality degree - from the janitor to the mechanic to the insurance adjuster, etc.

I will agree with you that standards should be tightened, but I won't follow you down the luddite path.

[Whacker]

Accreditation exists for a reason, but it makes no utilitarian sense why it would be expensive. The educations is cheap approaching free. You are paying 60-120k for a piece of paper and a certificate that you've completed courses and to rub elbows with wealthy and promising contacts. This is nonsense, specifically for the degrees held by the vast majority of people. I can assure you that if someone took online courses and certified tests substantiating some mastery, they would have as good of a liberal arts education as anyone I've ever met, for example.

Education's cost trajectory has been approaching zero since the printing press and the baseline is finally approaching. Everyone should have an inexpensive, high quality degree - from the janitor to the mechanic to the insurance adjuster, etc.

I will agree with you that standards should be tightened, but I won't follow you down the luddite path.

Dammit, I had a nice response all written up when the Org burped, my browser took a dump, or both.

Suffice to say I agree with you solidly on a few points. Education should be much cheaper and widely available. Everyone should be able to get a solid, quality education relevant to his or her chosen profession. This includes college, trade schools, etc.

I disagree completely in a few other regards. The quality of the product is an absolute, direct correlation to the quality of the education. This is why MBAs from University of Phoenix Online don't get jobs and their degrees are worthless. Also why they don't let pilots fly planes without a comprehensive, long term, exhaustive education that involves knowledge transfer and experience. Same with a medical degree. Long term education with direct experience acquired. You don't get this from Youtube or Wikipedia, then taking some tests. The alternatives you originally cited are great starters for people who may be interested in an actual career path or change in career, but they are not remotely an acceptable substitute or even supplement to a real, quality education from a controlled, accredited institution.

[Tuuvi]

I watched a PBS documentary called "Declining by Degrees" that was about the decline in quality of college education in America, and how it's becoming out of reach for a lot of people. It said that in the 60's (or maybe it was in the 70's I don't remember) college education was cheap, and grants were made available to just about anyone. Then studies came out that showed a college degree can increase your earning potential, so the government decided they were a commodity and switched out grants for student loans. The cost of education has been increasing ever since then (IIRC). I think a lot of the problems we have today stem from the idea that the government should be run like a business where people have to pay for the goods and services they receive. Taxes should be enough.

[Vladimir]

This is just disgusting. Someone tried to drive through the main entrance and found himself surrounded by angry teenagers.


He had a Mustang. Why did he stop?

[Tellos Athenaios]

He had a Mustang. Why did he stop?

So he could steer the thing?

[Vladimir]

So he could steer the thing?

True. The handling on those things is poor.

[Veho Nex]

Today is March 1st. For the University of California system this day has been long expected as the "Day of Action". Student across all the campuses are protesting against high tuition and demand for greater access to public education.
http://www.dailycal.org/2012/02/29/students-from-uc-campuses-around-the-state-to-join-in-protests/


My university has two intersections that are choke points for entering. All roads flow through them, the students since 4am have blocked off both entrances at the two intersections effectively shutting down the university for the day. My labs and discussion sections got canceled for today and now I am without an education on March 1st because students are protesting for more education.

These fools did the same thing at my school. I can't afford to miss class, I'm barely keeping up as it is. My teachers just see it as an opportunity to email the class saying that they still expect everything done by monday.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I don't even......what.....?

https://i.imgur.com/NnCjX.jpg

[Strike For The South]

I hate Califronia

[Crazed Rabbit]

So they now are against the two most useful degrees?

I truly wonder what these kids expect from college.

CR

[Strike For The South]

Consequence free sex

[Tellos Athenaios]

I don't even......what.....?

https://i.imgur.com/NnCjX.jpg

Someone thinks University is too much about going-through-the-motions and churning out degrees as exemplified by Engineering 2 ?

[Centurion1]

I don't even......what.....?

https://i.imgur.com/NnCjX.jpg

Your school is ******* stupid as **** bro.

You know the number one destination of graduates of my school?
Finance

Your school?
Prison and communes.

[Subotan]

The problem is employers don't buy that. Nor do I, for that matter

This is correct, and it's an information asymmetry problem. By having a degree you're showing that as a worker you're productive enough to make it through university. You might be just as productive if you don't have one, but if everyone else who is productive has one, you're going to be treated like you're an unproductive worker. Degrees are mainly used for signalling to employers that you have the skills and talent so that you can work for them, rather than actually giving you skills that you will use.

[CountArach]

I don't even......what.....?

https://i.imgur.com/NnCjX.jpg
I'm pretty sure Marx didn't say that.

[Vladimir]

I'm pretty sure Marx didn't say that.

At least not in 2001. I think someone is having a little fun with this.

I like college humor. :2thumbsup:

[a completely inoffensive name]

Your school is ******* stupid as **** bro.You know the number one destination of graduates of my school? FinanceYour school?Prison and communes. Apparently other universities haven't been teaching students how not to make false generalizations either.

[Centurion1]

Apparently other universities haven't been teaching students how not to make false generalizations either.

;)

touche.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I disagree. In fact I'll go as far as saying that there's a shortage of college-trained professionals. The problem is not with the economy but rather with the choices that the college kids make these days: too many people studying journalism, philosophy, sociology, arts and other assorted bullcrap, while science, engineering, physics and other majors that actually matter get left behind. As a result we have college grads with a so called "degree" in some useless humanitarian subject working as waiters and baristas. Higher education is first and foremost an investment. Those who invest in bullcrap majors are merely reaping what they sow.

That's an excellent point and reinforced by the recent Occupy protests. Many of them had unmarketable degrees. We import professionals from all over the world to supply our demand.

I think this is a rather dated view (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-14823042).

My brother is actually doing a Masters in Engineering and he has been warned how important it is to get out and get work experience because getting good employment related to his degree will be tough.

Also apologies for the anecdotal evidence, but I had a conversation with an Indian guy at work about the economy over there and he told me about the situation with his brother who also did a 5-year degree to become a doctor. Apparently the situation there with too many people studying for high-level jobs is 100x worse than here, thousands of people take extremely competetive entrance exams for a handful of positions.

As the BBC article said:

"And Philip Greenish, Chief Executive of the Royal Academy of Engineering said: "Engineers are highly skilled professionals. Employers recruit them from wherever they can in a global marketplace. Only a proportion will be fresh UK graduates."

If you take a global marketplace where far too many people study for the number of jobs required, and consider the number of graduates places like India produce compared to the UK, you can see why graduates here are struggling.

Like the article said, less than half of engineering graduates in the UK find work relating to their studies six months after graduating. Why on earth are we importing people in? Absolute madness.

[Vladimir]

Foreigners also work for less. It's the same everywhere. :shrug:

[gaelic cowboy]

My brother is actually doing a Masters in Engineering and he has been warned how important it is to get out and get work experience because getting good employment related to his degree will be tough.

Like the article said, less than half of engineering graduates in the UK find work relating to their studies six months after graduating. Why on earth are we importing people in? Absolute madness.


Engineering is not sexy and a real skills base takes time to develop, it's not enough to have graduates they must have a grounding in a particular industry.

The West has done two things it let small companies go to the wall reducing a graduates chance at technician level skills and we let actual engineers come to take positions. Small companies is where you get your engineering skills typically from but we collectively outsouced much of the work and hence we got rid of the technician skills too.

The consequence of this is the laughable posting one sees now on recruitment site of needing 1-2yrs experience for an engineering internship (often low or unpaid) Excuse me but I would love to see the explanation how is that an internship and not an actual job.

It is not an unusual senario to be told that even when you have relevant experience unless it's after college it will be discounted for the interview.
Imagine you had a summer job in a CNC place during college, they let you do some milling, turning, 3d solidworks an autocad stuff etc etc you turn up for interview after college and with a straight face some HR women tells you have NO experience. (this wasnt me twas a friend in case you wondering)

I have got simmilar rebutals in interviews though for in the semiconductor side of things.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Aye, it's a bad situation gaelic.

It seems to me that the solution is to have less education and ban immigration.

I await the day a politician stands on that platform.


Foreigners also work for less. It's the same everywhere. :shrug:

Even in highly-skilled positions?

I am asking, I am genuinely unaware.

[gaelic cowboy]

Aye, it's a bad situation gaelic.

It seems to me that the solution is to have less education and ban immigration.

I await the day a politician stands on that platform.

Well economist's have already probed the idea that tons of education does not make a society rich it merely raises the bar for entry.




Even in highly-skilled positions?

I am asking, I am genuinely unaware.

No I doubt it too be honest because highly skilled is generally also rare even with foreign talent adding to the pool.

Generally skilled is where the problem are and thats what a student is till they have a fews years work.

[Vladimir]

Aye, it's a bad situation gaelic.
Even in highly-skilled positions?

I am asking, I am genuinely unaware.

I can't back that up with numbers right now but historical trends indicate that immigrants (skilled or not) will often work harder, and for less, than native born workers. It's a kind of fuzzy "fact" but it depends on a person's motivation and individual circumstances.

[gaelic cowboy]

I can't back that up with numbers right now but historical trends indicate that immigrants (skilled or not) will often work harder, and for less, than native born workers. It's a kind of fuzzy "fact" but it depends on a person's motivation and individual circumstances.

In high skill positions native talent does not lose out

If you ask me it is in the first job and general skills area that graduates lose out mostly cos we let the majority of it go somewhere else.

Politicians and banks made it possible to do this and codded people with talk of smart economies and moving up the ladder blah blah.

A robotic plant is supposedly smart economy uses less workers and can import engineers from abroad but will not affect local high skilled engineers. However graduates will find it hard to get work there as they dont need masses of employees and therefore a lot of technicians and junior engineers.

Everyday employers claim there is a dearth of engineers when in fact it's really that there is a dearth of 5-8yr experienced senior engineers.

[Major Robert Dump]

These people could afford college if birth control were free.

That flyer is Effin awesome