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Jarema
03-05-2012, 20:54
I want to host a game with two evil teams - mafia and werewolves. And, of course, there would be town.
a) mafia: several guys. there are powerful individuals, with political and economical connections. They have their own dirty tricks (like roleblocking, influencing votes, etc.) but they cannot kill anyone directly
b) werewolves: there is lower number of them than mafia. They are beasts. They kill (one team kill per night). They have some strange abilities which I do not want to describe here, but lets consider them to be minor

Town (and mafia) would have some power roles, but no 'full scanner' (cop or someone similar). There is possibility of tracker/watcher, and of other kinds of power roles (vigilante, doiuble-voter, doctor, etc.)


One unusual thing: each 'day' (voting phase) will represent first day of a week - a day of religious celebrations, a day free from work. Each 'nihght' (action phase) will represent the rest of the week. t is mostly a flavour change, but I want to use it to introduce new mechanic: phases of the Moon. At new moon, werewolves are weak - they are more vulnerable, and they cannot attack. at full moon, werewolves are potent. they can use all they special abilities and they are almost indestructible. Game starts one week before full moon.

Another unusual thing: there would be no reveal at death. But, after two days, a coroner's raport would be published. hs raport would describe the case of a death, and if body has any anomalies, it would be described either. So, if killed person is a werewolf, it would become known after two days. But, there would not be any information about deceased person being mafia or not. Additionally, there will be roles (I think about 2) which would be able to give some info about deceased character. For example, person who can check if deceased has any criminal record (all mafia will have crilminal record, but some townies also).

This is short description of most of aspects of this game (some I do not want to reveal)

I have a question to you all:
Let us suppose, that there are 25 players. How many of them should be mafia? How many of them should be werewolves? Remember, mafia does not have ability to kill at night.

LazyMcCrow
03-06-2012, 10:29
I'm sure Pizza won't mind me quoting his advice to me when I was trying to learn about hosting:


5 players- 4 townies, 1 mafioso, no mafia kill.
6 players- 5 townies, 1 mafioso, no mafia kill.
7 players- 6 townies, 1 mafioso, 1 kill per night.
7 players- 5 townies, 2 mafiosi, no mafia kill.
8 players- 7 townies, 1 mafioso, 1 kill per night.
8 players- 6 townies, 2 mafiosi, no mafia kill.
9 players- 7 townies, 2 mafiosi, 1 kill per night.
9 players- 7 townies, 2 mafiosi, no mafia kill.
10 players- 8 townies, 2 mafiosi, 1 kill per night.
11 players- 9 townies, 2 mafiosi, 1 kill per night.
12 players- 10 townies, 2 mafiosi, 1 kill per night.
13 players- 11 townies, 2 mafiosi, 1 kill per night.
13 players- 10 townies, 3 mafiosi, no mafia kill.
14-20 players- 2-3 mafiosi, 1-2 kills per night.
20-30 players- 2-3 mafiosi, 2 kills per night.
30-40 players- 2-4 mafiosi, 2 kills per night.
40-60 players- 3-4 mafiosi, 1 kill per mafiosi per night.


Here are adjustments I would make when adding power roles to the town, thereby upsetting these general balancing guidelines.

1) For each detective that can unquestionably scan and reveal mafiosi, add one additional mafiosi. Try to limit such detectives, as they are in my opinion vastly overpowered. Avoid multiple true detective setups.

2) For each doctor that can stop a mafia kill, allow at least one mafiosi the ability to roleblock, or give one-time abilities to kill through protection. Multiple doctors allow for impenetrable rings to be formed which greatly upset the balance of power. Avoid multiple doctor setups, especially where detectives are involved.

3) For each vigilante town has, allow for either an additional mafiosi or mafia kill to compensate, or provide the mafia the ability to protect one of their own from harm. Vigilantes are very powerful but are double-edged, and I consider them somewhat balanced due to their ability to harm the town.

4) For each role that townies have which can prove their whereabouts, and provide them with an alibi [example, someone who runs around at night giving people loaves of bread.... does nothing but establishes that they weren't out killing anyone] that is still powerful and leads to victory by reveal and deduction, not entirely what mafia is about. Therefore, provide the scumbags with cover roles and abilities which they could use to argue their own innocence. Example: Tracker roles, Watcher roles, jack-of-all-trades roles, roleblockers, or investigative powers of their own. Perhaps even a godfather [scanproof] role.

5) Multiple competing scum families are usually detrimental to the scums. A serial killer reduces the effectiveness of mafia families being able to win games because they can get picked off until there's only one left, and that remainder could get eaten alive by a roleblocker, tracker, watcher, or detective. As such, games with serial killers or competing families should be larger and provide each scum team with a means of victory, such as self-defense powers, blocking powers, or additional numbers. Serial killers should be provided with some kind of cover, extra powers, or anti-murder or one-time anti-lynch powers, or given win conditions which don't require survival to the end.

6) General rule: Make sure all sides can win.

7) Test the setup. Assume bad things happen to each team on day one and day two. Don't make a game unwinnable for any team after the first two rounds of play. Bad luck can ruin your game. Exception: Vanilla games where both mafiosi get lynched right away, those are the breaks. It happens!

If the setup loses all excitement or balance after only one mistake per side, then it is probably going to be lopsided.

8) Setups are easier to balance and are more mafia-like [relying on guesswork over deduction and brute force] when town is actually less informed than the mafia. If the townies all have power roles they will soon deduce what is happening and they'll be more informed than the minority mafia. That's not fun. Avoid all power role setups unless the mafia are VERY powerful.

Hope this is as helpful to you as it was to me :)

Jarema
03-06-2012, 14:10
Yes it is helpful, thanks.
With werewolves it is easier, it would be 2 or 3 of them I believe (like in this ATPG's advice).
but I am thinking also about quite different situation - a scum team without ability to kill. What you think about their number?

LazyMcCrow
03-09-2012, 16:54
Yes it is helpful, thanks.
With werewolves it is easier, it would be 2 or 3 of them I believe (like in this ATPG's advice).
but I am thinking also about quite different situation - a scum team without ability to kill. What you think about their number?

No idea I'm afraid - All I can suggest is that it is VITALLY IMPORTANT that you playtest your ruleset. It doesn't take as long as you might think - with Mafia specifically (the time consuming bits are write-ups) Just play the game through a few times, making sure that all extreme situations are covered (mafia getting lynched immediately etc.) You should soon see if there are any glaring errors, however, beware that the more rules/rule changes you include, the more scope there is for making the game imbalanced. Having hosted only one game, I am going to ensure that the next few I host stick pretty closely to the tried and tested set ups. I don't imagine its advisable to mess too much with more than one mechanic at a time until you know the game back to front.

Jarema
03-11-2012, 16:45
No idea I'm afraid - All I can suggest is that it is VITALLY IMPORTANT that you playtest your ruleset. It doesn't take as long as you might think - with Mafia specifically (the time consuming bits are write-ups) Just play the game through a few times, making sure that all extreme situations are covered (mafia getting lynched immediately etc.) You should soon see if there are any glaring errors

True. I will do that now.


beware that the more rules/rule changes you include, the more scope there is for making the game imbalanced. Having hosted only one game, I am going to ensure that the next few I host stick pretty closely to the tried and tested set ups. I don't imagine its advisable to mess too much with more than one mechanic at a time until you know the game back to front.

I understand it. And this is why I want to host this game now, after hosting several others, not as my first or second game.
And this is why I am asking for your opinion - it is another, very important, source of information about possible problems.
Thanks for your advices.

B-Wing
05-02-2012, 03:11
I've been wanting to get back to Mafia lately, and I think your concept it awesome! Unfortunately, I don't have the experience to offer any advice on team numbers. But I definitely want to be a part of this when it launches.

nl.
05-03-2012, 07:51
Depending on your townies and amount of werewolves/mafia, I might sugggest 5 scum and three werewolves, but town definitely needs some pro town roles to win this.

Some unique power roles could be useful here.

Even if the mafia cannot kill, they can utilise confusions and distractions ala Darkling to win. Killing isn't everything.

Jarema
05-05-2012, 07:56
This thread has been dead for almost 2 months :)
and during this time, I had a lot of ideas for this game. So expect (a bit)unique power roles (still nothing like cops), and a small special mechanics for werewolves.
Also, mafia would have some powers, mostly useful for distraction :D