View Full Version : The trial of Anders Behring Breivik
HoreTore
04-24-2012, 21:40
"Your group" is not an individual. Libel and slander laws protect only individuals and organizations.
Uhm, yes. That be tha point, yarr. I'll repeat it for you. Bolded as a bonus:
Libel laws and hatespeech laws are defended by the same reasoning, the only difference that the former argues for individuals, while the latter argues for groups.
Now, I don't support either, so I'm fine. What intrigues me is how it is possible to support one but not the either. Given that there is no difference whatsoever in the argument defending them, I would think that you either have to support both or none at all. How can someone support only one? Is it logical shortcuts? Tradition? Habit? Blind parroting of what one is learned by society? What?
HoreTore
04-24-2012, 21:43
"If you tell lies about jews I should have the option to call you a liar and make you stop. Why? Because those lies might threaten jewish life and well being. Your freedom stops where mine begins."
Rvg's argument for libel, turned into a argument for hatespeech, with Jews being used as the example.
It's the exact same thing. I didn't even have to change a comma to make it fit, juet the word "me".
In the US, hate speech is perfectly legal, provided it does not violate the sanctions against libel and defamation, or inciting others to riot or violence. This is a core concept in the idea of the "free marketplace of ideas", and the tenant that no opinion, however misinformed or misguided, should ever be wrong.
Defamation is as rvg said, a direct threat to someone's character, reputation, and thus livelihood. I could get up in public and state that rvg is a big meanie and I think he posts on the forums in a less than stellar manner. These are my own personal opinion (not really, just an example) and do not portray themselves as anything more than such. If I were to stand up in public and state that rvg is a deviant sadomasochist who likes screwing transsexual nazi hookers while snorting coke off a crying homeless orphan's butt, that's a completely different story and he has every right to sue the pants off of me. There's a reason this isn't protected speech. Likewise with incitement to riot or "fighting words", or shouting "fire" in a crowded room. These things are by definition dangerous and constitute direct threats to individuals or groups of people's lives.
"If you tell lies about jews I should have the option to call you a liar and make you stop. Why? Because those lies might threaten jewish life and well being. Your freedom stops where mine begins."
Rvg's argument for libel, turned into a argument for hatespeech, with Jews being used as the example.
It's the exact same thing. I didn't even have to change a comma to make it fit, juet the word "me".
No it's not. Libel and slander are specific attacks against a specific person or business/organizational entity. "Jews" are a ubiquitous, widespread, arguably (un)defined conceptualization of a subset of humanity. In the US, you could certainly stand up and state you hate jews and think they should all be deported, that they spell bad, look funny, have big noses, and are stingy with their money. You could say that all day long as much as you want. Of course you'd be roundly denounced as an antisemite and a fool, but that's what you'd reap for what you've sown.
Now, I don't support either, so I'm fine. What intrigues me is how it is possible to support one but not the either. Given that there is no difference whatsoever in the argument defending them, I would think that you either have to support both or none at all. How can someone support only one? Is it logical shortcuts? Tradition? Habit? Blind parroting of what one is learned by society? What?
It seems obvious to me: slander against groups does not target anyone specifically. Since nobody specifically is targetted, nobody specifically can bring up the libel charges.
For example I can publicly say: "Catholic priests are lying, swindling, child-molesting crooks". That will be protected under 1st Amendment.
If I publicly say: "Father Thomas is a lying, swindling, child-molesting crook", then Father Thomas (and only Father Thomas) will be entitled to sue me.
I can't defame individuals. Defaming groups is okay.
HoreTore
04-24-2012, 21:51
No it's not. Libel and slander are specific attacks against a specific person or business/organizational entity. "Jews" are a ubiquitous, widespread, arguably (un)defined conceptualization of a subset of humanity. In the US, you could certainly stand up and state you hate jews and think they should all be deported, that they spell bad, look funny, have big noses, and are stingy with their money. You could say that all day long as much as you want. Of course you'd be roundly denounced as an antisemite and a fool, but that's what you'd reap for what you've sown.
Oh dear. How many times do I have to repeat this?
Libel refers to individuals, while hatespeech laws has the same argument but directed at groups.
HoreTore
04-24-2012, 21:55
It seems obvious to me: slander against groups does not target anyone specifically. Since nobody specifically is targetted, nobody specifically can bring up the libel charges.
For example I can publicly say: "Catholic priests are lying, swindling, child-molesting crooks". That will be protected under 1st Amendment.
If I publicly say: "Father Thomas is a lying, swindling, child-molesting crook", then Father Thomas (and only Father Thomas) will be entitled to sue me.
I can't defame individuals. Defaming groups is okay.
I see no reason not to allow both of those statements. To me, both are perfectly fine. But I do see the logic in the argument that they should both be disallowed, even though I oppose it. I do, however, not in any way see the logic in allowing one but not the other. Sorry.
And as for calling one "no free speech" while hailing the other as a shining light of liberty just sounds chauvinist. Like Stalin, really.
Nonsense. They are allowed.
Nope, see my reference.
"Jews" are a ubiquitous, widespread, arguably (un)defined conceptualization of a subset of humanity.
Yet for many, there is no doubt that they are included in the concept.
HoreTore
04-24-2012, 22:22
Does anyone remember the thread here a while back about the food critic who got sued for a bad review and lost?
All hail American Free Speech!!!
A shining example of a speech limitation which happened in the US but won't ever happen here(we fix our problems using the government, not a civil justice system).
Nope, see my reference.
I don't need your reference. All you need is to watch one episode of Real Time with Bill Maher to know that I'm right.
Oh dear. How many times do I have to repeat this?
Libel refers to individuals, while hatespeech laws has the same argument but directed at groups.
Here's some education for you broski. Bolding crap doesn't make you correct, it just makes you look a bit more silly while proving you don't understand the concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
edit -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law
HoreTore
04-24-2012, 23:59
Here's some education for you broski. Bolding crap doesn't make you correct, it just makes you look a bit more silly while proving you don't understand the concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
edit -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law
I am well aware of what libel is, Whacker, hence why I made my original statement. Are you perhaps confused about what hatespeech laws are like in europe? Or the philosophical concept of it ? Or perhaps the way I use the word "group"?
I am well aware of what libel is, Whacker, hence why I made my original statement. Are you perhaps confused about what hatespeech laws are like in europe? Or the philosophical concept of it ? Or perhaps the way I use the word "group"?
I have little idea of how hate speech laws work in Europe. From what I see, some of it I think is ridiculous carryover from WWII, such as disallowing holocaust denial, display of Nazi paraphernalia, and the like. As much as I detest the idea of those actions and concepts, making them illegal is silly. My response was directed at your statement "Libel refers to individuals, while hatespeech laws has the same argument but directed at groups." This is not correct, libel can be directed at other entities besides individual persons. Likewise, the definition of "hate speech" specifies that it also can be directed at individuals, groups of individuals, institutions, or other entities. The wiki entry for Norway links to here: http://www.lovdata.no/all/tl-19020522-010-017.html . Since I don't speak Møøselanguage, I can't tell if the exact legal wording specifies individuals as well as groups, as you say. In general though, that is what those terms mean, hence my response to you.
HoreTore
04-25-2012, 00:49
When I said individuals, I referred to things like George Bush alone, the Bush family as a whole, Big Oil Company #2 etc etc.
When I said groups, I reffered to larger groups like jews, gays, christians, etc.
You are of course right that hatespeec laws are a remnant from an earlier time, though you poointed at the wrong era, at least in our case(I don't know german pre-ww2 law, so can't comment on them). The time in question would be the 1800's and early 1900's. About 50% av the section you linked to is from that time, and most of them are sleeping laws, ie. laws which won't be used, but for some reason remain as law. There are also other laws which conflict with this section, of course.
When I said individuals, I referred to things like George Bush alone, the Bush family as a whole, Big Oil Company #2 etc etc.
When I said groups, I reffered to larger groups like jews, gays, christians, etc.
Hence a misunderstanding then. For the record, it's not incorrect to refer to a family as a singular unit, or a business as a singular entity, but that's not how we'd generally make reference to those in spoken or written word. The Bush family is a group of individuals. Big Oil Company #2 employs lots of individuals. In short, "individual" used as a noun refers to a single person, not a family unit, or business entity, or something like that. If you use that word in that context with native english speakers, you're going to get some confusion and misunderstandings, so be forewarned.
Supernova create star systems. Without supernova there wouldn't be the heavy elements that the earth and other inner planets are made of.Just a fun science fact for todaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. -end jingle plays-
hehe..
Not to detract from the main discussion, but doesn't this beg the question? since a supernova is a star and as such a part of a star system, is it then true for all star systems that they were "moved" by a supernova? Cause - effect chain regress leads to the first supernova and then --- what? BB?
HoreTore
04-25-2012, 14:49
Before the trial, I had a firm belief that he was not insane.
As the trial progresses, I'm starting to lean towards insane.
He clearly has a number of personality disorders, the question is how much they control his actions, and where the line goes between sane and insane in a legal sense.
Before the trial, I had a firm belief that he was not insane.
As the trial progresses, I'm starting to lean towards insane.
He clearly has a number of personality disorders, the question is how much they control his actions, and where the line goes between sane and insane in a legal sense.
Or he is just really-really evil. It takes a special kind of guy to go and shoot dozens of children.
I don't need your reference. All you need is to watch one episode of Real Time with Bill Maher to know that I'm right.
If you don't know the relevant definition of 'obscenity', it's kind of hard to bring up relevant anecdotal evidence (it's not quite what you think it is). This is also verboten:
Similarly, the government may proscribe “‘fighting’ words—those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace.”
Here the Court was referring to utterances that constitute “epithets or personal abuse” that “are no essential part of any exposition of ideas,” as opposed to, for example, flag burning, which is discussed below, under “Symbolic Speech.”
This means that under certain conditions, you have to keep particular opinions for yourself.
The lower courts have had a difficult time determining whether certain epithets constitute “fighting words.” At the very least, they have reached maddeningly inconsistent results. Consider the following situations in which offensive statements were found not to constitute fighting words:
Calling a police officer a “son of a *****” (Johnson v. Campbell, 3rd Circuit, 2003).
Yelling “**** you all” to a police officer and security personnel at a nightclub (Cornelius v. Brubaker, Minnesota District Court, 2003).
Telling a police officer: “I’m tired of this God damned police sticking their nose in **** that doesn’t even involve them” (Brendle v. City of Houston, Court of Appeals of the State of Mississippi, 2000).
Telling a security officer “This is ********” when rousted from a parking lot (U.S. v. McDermott, Eastern District of Pennsylvania, 1997).
However, other courts have determined that the expressions in the following situations were fighting words:
Flashing a sexually suggestive sign repeatedly to a young woman driving a car (State v. Hubbard, Minnesota Court of Appeals, 2001).
Yelling racial slurs at two African-American woman (In re John M., Arizona Court of Appeals, 2001).
Repeatedly yelling the words “whore,” “harlot” and “Jezebel” at a nude woman on the beach (Wisconsin v. Ovadal, Wisconsin Court of Appeals, 2003).
Calling a police officer a “white, racist mother****” and wishing his mother would die (State v. Clay, Minnesota Court of Appeals, 1999).
Calling a police officer a “**** ****” in a loud voice and attempting to spit on the officer (State v. York, Maine Supreme Judicial Court, 1999).
Check this (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/fighting-words)link for the exact quotes
Calling a police officer a “son of a *****” (Johnson v. Campbell, 3rd Circuit, 2003)
This one seems a bit of an oddity, as it's a direct personal statement, as are the other ones in the "fighting words" list. Spitting is a universally accepted example of physical assault, same as punching someone.
Kadagar_AV
04-25-2012, 22:11
Or he is just really-really evil. It takes a special kind of guy to go and shoot dozens of children.
Norway is a secular country, and thus the concept of "evil" has no place in court.
Two lines of thought colliding:
1. He is "evil".
2. Because of genetical or sociological reasons he deemed his actions to be for the best.
The court is of course all set on option two, and is right now trying to see if it is the genetics that let him down - thus sending him to a mental ward facility. Or if it's society who let him down - thus sending him to prison.
Me? I am really torn on the issue. Whereas I support the general idea of lowering immigration I can not support the killing of young people like that.
With that said, imagine spending you'r life as a right winger, surrounded by people like HoreTore (no offense meant, I just mean that you are Norwegian and on this forum symbolize many of the Norwegian political policies).
I'd go a little bonkers too.
a completely inoffensive name
04-25-2012, 22:21
hehe..
Not to detract from the main discussion, but doesn't this beg the question? since a supernova is a star and as such a part of a star system, is it then true for all star systems that they were "moved" by a supernova? Cause - effect chain regress leads to the first supernova and then --- what? BB?
The first supernova came from a first generation star formed in the aftermath of the big bang, which is where almost all the hydrogen and helium of the universe comes from.
HoreTore
04-25-2012, 22:43
No worries Kadagar, I feel honoured by that kind of comment ~;)
Assuming he isn't guided by psychotic paranoia(which is the diagnosis in question), he is a whiny little bitch who doesn't have the backbone to fight for what he believes in, like the rest of us do. He wants his views to become dominant, yet he doesn't want to lift a finger to move society in that direction. When society doesn't change through magical means, he kills people. A pathetic, small man.
Paranoia isn't an illness determined by biology, btw. And the line of legal thought the court is using now isn't a modern thing, it dates back to the viking age.
Norway is a secular country, and thus the concept of "evil" has no place in court.
Two lines of thought colliding:
1. He is "evil".
2. Because of genetical or sociological reasons he deemed his actions to be for the best.
The court is of course all set on option two, and is right now trying to see if it is the genetics that let him down - thus sending him to a mental ward facility. Or if it's society who let him down - thus sending him to prison.
Me? I am really torn on the issue. Whereas I support the general idea of lowering immigration I can not support the killing of young people like that.
With that said, imagine spending you'r life as a right winger, surrounded by people like HoreTore (no offense meant, I just mean that you are Norwegian and on this forum symbolize many of the Norwegian political policies).
I'd go a little bonkers too.
I wasn't making a legal argument, merely stating my opinion about the guy.
HoreTore
04-25-2012, 23:35
I wouldn't say evil though.
Violence is the choice of the idiot, the loser and the lazy. Genuinly evil people find more elaborate ways to torment their victims than blind violence.
I wouldn't say evil though.
Violence is the choice of the idiot, the loser and the lazy. Genuinly evil people find more elaborate ways to torment their victims than blind violence.
Why do you find evil and stupidity to be mutually exclusive?
Kadagar_AV
04-26-2012, 04:55
No worries Kadagar, I feel honoured by that kind of comment ~;)
Assuming he isn't guided by psychotic paranoia(which is the diagnosis in question), he is a whiny little bitch who doesn't have the backbone to fight for what he believes in, like the rest of us do. He wants his views to become dominant, yet he doesn't want to lift a finger to move society in that direction. When society doesn't change through magical means, he kills people. A pathetic, small man.
Paranoia isn't an illness determined by biology, btw. And the line of legal thought the court is using now isn't a modern thing, it dates back to the viking age.
I have to disagree. I believe he very much so put up a fight, and did more than lift a finger.
He was the first on the barricade - from his perspective of course.
Do NOT get me wrong, I in NO way support his actions. But from his standpoint, and pretty much anyone's standpoint, you can't accuse him of not fighting for what he believes in.
I'm not even sure he failed at his mission. In Norway, maybe. But in Sweden this have had a more alarming effect. No one supports his actions, but the reasoning behind his actions has been brought up to light, and at least it is now being discussed. Not in media of course, but among people.
Let's face it - shoot outs with political agendas will ALWAYS lead to a discussion of the political agenda. And you must bear in mind that just because Norway is all "Uuuuuuuh", it could still make Sweden and Denmark go like "Uuuuuuuuh we don't want that here, let's lower immigration".
I actually think he earned the extreme right a couple of votes. Not because he is right in his actions, but because we don't want to deal with this sort of things at large.
HoreTore
04-26-2012, 07:45
Why do you find evil and stupidity to be mutually exclusive?
Good point.
Kadagar, engaging in politics and trying to persuade others that your opinions are correct takes a lot more effort than gunning down 77 unarmed civillians. The first is a lifetimes work, the second takes a couple of years in planning.
He was too lazy to do the hard stuff, so he chose the easy stuff. He is also completely incapable of accepting that people disagree with him. He didn't fight for his views, he gunned down those he disagreed with.
I don't know how he does on an IQ-test, but his intelligence in social science is awful. Rock-bottom.
The first supernova came from a first generation star formed in the aftermath of the big bang, which is where almost all the hydrogen and helium of the universe comes from.
I think you will find problems postulating the theory that every star system in the universe, bar those about the same age as the universe itself, are formed due to a supernovae blast. In fact I believe the percentage is very low. The theory states that an embryo star system starts to collapse due to an external force. e.g a supernova. Not that all external forces are supernovas. Personally I think Galaxy nucleus black holes are the major player within stellar creation.
/back to Breivik.
"En himmel full av stjerner...."
Good point.
Kadagar, engaging in politics and trying to persuade others that your opinions are correct takes a lot more effort than gunning down 77 unarmed civillians. The first is a lifetimes work, the second takes a couple of years in planning.
He was too lazy to do the hard stuff, so he chose the easy stuff.
You need to think like him, for him it's a longterm investment, none of these kids will become future leaders. That is also why he claims self-defence
40,000 people (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17852176) had no other things to do on a Thursday noon? I reckon they could have assembled a moon rocket in the relevant time frame.
Some 40,000 people have gathered on an Oslo square to sing a popular peace song which mass killer Anders Behring Breivik condemned at his trial.
The right-wing extremist had accused the singer of Children Of The Rainbow, Lillebjoern Nilsen, of being a Marxist who sought to brainwash children.
Nilsen led the crowd on Thursday in singing the song on Youngstorget Square, close to the courthouse.
[...]
In court last Friday, Breivik attacked Norway's educational system and singled out Nilsen as a "good example of a Marxist who infiltrated the cultural sector, [who] writes music that is used to brainwash children".
On Thursday, Nilsen led the singing in the square of Children Of The Rainbow, a Norwegian version of US folk singer Pete Seeger's My Rainbow Race, which is an anti-war song from his 1973 album of the same name.
HoreTore
04-26-2012, 22:17
"Blått hav så langt du ser..."
Viking, taking an hour off work is no problem in situations like this. And you need to consider the tons of students and school children...
That was at least partially humorous. I am always slightly creeped out by crowds like these. But if the common goal is to avoid getting eaten by the hungry lions surrounding us, then it's okay; as long as I am somewhere near the middle.
There's also something ironic about acting on weird stuff the wacko says; we got an endless supply there.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
04-27-2012, 01:35
Kadagar, engaging in politics and trying to persuade others that your opinions are correct takes a lot more effort than gunning down 77 unarmed civillians. The first is a lifetimes work, the second takes a couple of years in planning.
He was too lazy to do the hard stuff, so he chose the easy stuff. He is also completely incapable of accepting that people disagree with him. He didn't fight for his views, he gunned down those he disagreed with.
I don't know how he does on an IQ-test, but his intelligence in social science is awful. Rock-bottom.
This is a matter of persepctive, he is operating on a different set of norms to you. From his perspective, he is willing to kill and die for his beliefs - I recall he said he didn't exepct to be taken alive.
By contrast, all you do is talk. So, that make you the coward from his perspective.
Me - I suppose my views sit somewhere between the two, but I feel very strongly that to simply dismiss Breivik as lazy or cowardly is reductive.
Rhyfelwyr
04-27-2012, 01:58
As much as I don't like the bandwagon with lumping every unpopular ideology in with Breivik's, the bandwagon with calling him a coward is probably on the mark.
He says he planned to die, but I find that hard to believe since he chose not to go down all guns blazing. And targeting defenceless teenagers is a very cowardly and pathetic way to act.
Even if he was a lunatic I would admit that he had guts if he went down in a shoot out with the military or the police.
At the end of the day he targeted the defenceless and surrendered at the first opportunity.
And targeting defenceless teenagers is a very cowardly and pathetic way to act.
Then again, if his goal was to inflict as much pain as possible upon his perceived enemies, then he could not have picked more appropriate targets.
Sasaki Kojiro
04-27-2012, 02:22
I think the "coward" thing is weird too. He killed dozens of people. Who cares about cowardice? Or "laziness"?
HoreTore
04-27-2012, 16:59
That was at least partially humorous. I am always slightly creeped out by crowds like these. But if the common goal is to avoid getting eaten by the hungry lions surrounding us, then it's okay; as long as I am somewhere near the middle.
There's also something ironic about acting on weird stuff the wacko says; we got an endless supply there.
I find it encouraging that this is the kind of remark people latch onto.
There are certainly enough coming out that people could react to, and which could lead to much worse things than public singing. So far these kinds of comments have been passed in silence, and I'm very happy about that.
I have to be honest, I never really understood his logic.Then again, I never understood the logic of terrorism for "ideological causes" which are abstract concepts and highly debatable opposed to something far more rational and concrete, for example, French Resistance in Vichy France.
While the trial is in on of its more duller phases of reading of autopsy reports, I thought it might be relevant to share this photo gallery (http://nrk.no/227/dag-for-dag/slik-vil-auf-erne-huske-utoya-1.8125355) from the days leading up to 22 July last year, for those who wanted some more insight into the camp stuff on Utøya. Not sure how many of the 69 murdered that can be seen in these images, but the guy in #10 is one of them.
Greyblades
05-08-2012, 21:27
They look so happy...
Link crashes my browser. Kinda glad it does really, I want to see it out of a morbid fascination but I'm not quite up to it.
Well, I think most of the people that you can easily identify in those photos are still alive, so not quite that morbid (there were like 500-700 people on the island in total, with 69 murdered plus 33 shot and wounded). The photographer (a participant who survived) might have chosen not to publish certain images, I don't know.
Don't know why the link fails your browser.
Here's (http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=53219) a video of the burning man outside the court (after commercial; has potential to disturb). He appears to be a social client that got funny ideas for this day.
I got to say that this trial really gives bang for the buck.
HoreTore
05-15-2012, 16:54
Also, Fjordman once again shows his enormous ego by refusing to testify. Yes, Fjordman, this trial is about you. Not the 77 people who died, their relatives and the man who killed them.
Also, for someone who claims to support the principals of the judicial system, he shows an utter lack of respect and understanding for it. He is little more than a hypocritical liar with an inflated ego.
Also, Fjordman once again shows his enormous ego by refusing to testify. Yes, Fjordman, this trial is about you. Not the 77 people who died, their relatives and the man who killed them..
Hardly, that is a strange thought mia muca. Frordman is mentioned in the manifest, the one Breivik started writing 10 years ago.
What do you want, to have critisism of Islam on trial or Andres Breivik? It is not the same thing.
HoreTore
05-15-2012, 17:30
Hardly, that is a strange thought mia muca. Frordman is mentioned in the manifest, the one Breivik started writing 10 years ago.
What do you want, to have critisism of Islam on trial or Andres Breivik? It is not the same thing.
I want a fair trial, and a fair trial means that the defense is free to construct their defense as they want to.
Fjordman shows a blatant disrespect for this process, which is the very foundation of the modern judicial system.
I want a fair trial, and a fair trial means that the defense is free to construct their defense as they want to.
Fjordman shows a blatant disrespect for this process, which is the very foundation of the modern judicial system.
Just showing up have hurt the judicial proces as he had nothing to do with it. What exactly do you want to put on trial really, I think just another opinion. What is fjordman supposed to say? Sorry that my texts were copy pasted? I would avoid that show like the plague as well.
HoreTore
05-15-2012, 17:49
Just showing up have hurt the judicial proces as he had nothing to do with it. What exactly do you want to put on trial really, I think just another opinion. What is fjordman supposed to say? Sorry that my texts were copy pasted? I would avoid that show like the plague as well.
Exactly what the defense wants, I don't know, but my guess is that they want to show that ABB's views are not a consequence of a personality disorder.
A defense can call whoever they feel will help their case. ABB and his defene is of the opinion that Fjordman can give insights that will be beneficial for the defense. Disregarding that is mocking the judicial process.
That fjordman thinks he "is put on trial" just shows what an enormous ego the idiot has.
Exactly what the defense wants, I don't know, but my guess is that they want to show that ABB's views are not a consequence of a personality disorder.
A defense can call whoever they feel will help their case. ABB and his defene is of the opinion that Fjordman can give insights that will be beneficial for the defense. Disregarding that is mocking the judicial process.
That fjordman thinks he "is put on trial" just shows what an enormous ego the idiot has.
I think you are making a mistake by trying to link islamcritisism to what Breivik did it's not just a bit cheap. You want Frordman dragged into court but he didn't do anything. Thought police oh yes. It probably doesn't surprise you if I say that I read his blogs, no harm done
HoreTore
05-15-2012, 20:46
I think you are making a mistake by trying to link islamcritisism to what Breivik did it's not just a bit cheap. You want Frordman dragged into court but he didn't do anything. Thought police oh yes. It probably doesn't surprise you if I say that I read his blogs, no harm done
I want him "dragged to court" because ABB wants it, as I want all those accused of crimes to defend themselves.
Of course he didn't do anything, he's summoned as a witness. Frank Aarebrot and Mullah Krekar among a dozen others are also witnessing on the same grounds as Fjordman, and none of those have had anything to do with this case either, yet they all honour the court. Why? Because they believe in the concept of a fair trial, something Fjordman proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he does not. The only thing fjordman believes in is his massive ego and paranoid delusions.
Greyblades
05-15-2012, 20:48
Er, could someone explain this to me, what's happened?
HoreTore
05-15-2012, 20:50
Er, could someone explain this to me, what's happened?
What incident? Fjordman, the shoe-thrower or the burning man?
Greyblades
05-15-2012, 21:16
All three would be nice, I havent been keeping track of the story much and you and frag's post's seem to come out of nowhere.
HoreTore
05-15-2012, 21:34
All three would be nice, I havent been keeping track of the story much and you and frag's post's seem to come out of nowhere.
Ah well. All three then:
Shoe-thrower:
On friday(or was it thursday) last week the brother of a victim threw his shoe in Breivik's direction, yelling "you killer, you killer" before being taken care of by the guards and paramedics. Obviously some kind of mental breakdown. He was calmed down in another room before being rushed to the hospital. The man is an Iraqi citizen, who had flown in this day because it was the day his brother was discussed in the case. My conclusion is that the group theraphy set up for the victims has really been beneficial. This man has been alone with all his grief, in a distant country, I don't think it's a coincidence that he is the one with the breakdown.
The burning man: a man in his forties set himself on fire outside the court today. He has no relation to the case, but other than that there is little information. It's hinted that he was denied some kind of benefit or permit and that it was some kind of desperate action.
Fjordman:
The defense has submitted its witness list. A long one, with around 20-30 witnesses. The list can be divided in two. First there's a group that deals with political stuff, mostly extremism in various forms. The other group consists of psychologists and such.
ABB's defense strategy is to be found sane, and all the witnesses are summoned for that purpose. The second group is self-explanatory to that end. The first group is more interesting. It seems that the strategy is to prove that ABB's political views are not the result of paranoia, but that there are several people who share his views. So, he has summoned some historians, some politcal experts and some extremists of all colours. The list is restricted to norwegians, probably because only norwegians have a legal obligation to testify when summoned. Two of the summoned have stated their intention to disobey the court order, Stein Lillevolden(living in Copenhagen) and Peder Are Nøstvold Jensen, aka Chubby Curly Hair aka fjordman(living in Israel). Lillevolden has no respect for the judicial system whatsoever, so he's wasn't a big surprise. Fjordman, on the other hand, claims to defend the legal system, so he has shown himself as a complete hypocrite by his refusal.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-15-2012, 21:39
Can I just say, I have a powerful and very un-Christian desire to be the one to execute this Cur with a greataxe.
I don't think I'm the only one, and that's the most disturbing thing about all this.
HoreTore
05-15-2012, 21:53
Can I just say, I have a powerful and very un-Christian desire to be the one to execute this Cur with a greataxe.
I don't think I'm the only one, and that's the most disturbing thing about all this.
As you are a conservative, you are not alone.
Had you been a Norwegian leftie, you would be very alone.
Greyblades
05-15-2012, 21:58
I don't think I'm the only one, and that's the most disturbing thing about all this....I think your the only one who think's he deserves something as clean as a greataxe.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-15-2012, 22:12
As you are a conservative, you are not alone.
Had you been a Norwegian leftie, you would be very alone.
I'm a conservative Christian who has more or less renounced violence and is dead set against Capital Punishment.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-15-2012, 22:13
....I think your the only one who think's he deserves something as clean as a greataxe.
I'm not very good with the two handed axe, I tend to swerve to the left.
It can get a bit messy.
Greyblades
05-15-2012, 22:24
Alas, anything less than leaving him to the imaganations of the gentlemen in bay12 forums is not messy enough for me.
HoreTore
05-15-2012, 22:25
I'm a conservative Christian who has more or less renounced violence and is dead set against Capital Punishment.
Yes, and that makes you not alone within your group. If you were in another group, however, you would find yourself very alone.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-15-2012, 22:32
Alas, anything less than leaving him to the imaganations of the gentlemen in bay12 forums is not messy enough for me.
Look up Loki's punishment, see how that takes you.
Yes, and that makes you not alone within your group. If you were in another group, however, you would find yourself very alone.
I don't buy it - either the left-wing men of Norway are all lieing or they're all so aneimic they don't have any emotions left.
I'm not saying no one on the Left bears him no ill will, but I'm willing to bet there's a significant minority who want to beat him into a bloody pulp.
Given how angry you seem to get with me just because I believe in a Hippie loving God who loves everyone, I have a hard time believing there is no viking at all left in your countrymen.
Thankfully, not all Norwegians are lefties (regardless). The dismissed layjudge did indeed call for his death.
EDIT: Just to say that you might have found the one group that has lost its "Vikingness". ;-)
HoreTore
05-15-2012, 22:41
I have heard extremely few people from the left call for death. And by left I mean everything up to and including the liberal party. Beyond that, I have heard some people call for death. I have only heard one of the victims/relatives say they want death, and that was while he was in tears around the time of the funeral(can't remember if it was just prior or just after), so that might just as well have been the moment.
It's called humanism and belief in the rule of law.
By the way, I find your use of "men" ironic, as the only public figure expressing a desire for capital punishment(and without a trial as well), was the conservative christian woman Hanne Nabinthu Herland. I still have the smack-down she recieved for it from Mette Yvonne Larsen, the victims lawyer, fresh in mind...
Greyblades
05-15-2012, 22:53
Look up Loki's punishment, see how that takes you.
Eh, an enternity of snake venom doen't do it for me compared to the sort of stuff the dwarf fortress guys have been known to do just by accident.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-15-2012, 23:36
Thankfully, not all Norwegians are lefties (regardless). The dismissed layjudge did indeed call for his death.
EDIT: Just to say that you might have found the one group that has lost its "Vikingness". ;-)
Well, this is the same group where the men want to breastfeed their sons...
Any time you guys want to pack some of them into a longship and sent them this way, assuming they can cross the Great Whale Road without dying I don't mind getting the Fyrd together to give them a good old fashioned English welcome. Really old fashioned welcome.
:smartass2:
I have heard extremely few people from the left call for death. And by left I mean everything up to and including the liberal party. Beyond that, I have heard some people call for death. I have only heard one of the victims/relatives say they want death, and that was while he was in tears around the time of the funeral(can't remember if it was just prior or just after), so that might just as well have been the moment.
It's called humanism and belief in the rule of law.
By the way, I find your use of "men" ironic, as the only public figure expressing a desire for capital punishment(and without a trial as well), was the conservative christian woman Hanne Nabinthu Herland. I still have the smack-down she recieved for it from Mette Yvonne Larsen, the victims lawyer, fresh in mind...
Did I call for death? No, I said I wanted to kill him personally.
I try to master my base urges and sympathise with the poor deluded man. It's called Christian love.
Stop trying to monopolise the the moral high ground.
That doesn't mean I don't want to drive a blade in under his sternum and then pull down and out so that his steaming entrails spill to the floor, then use his intestines to keelhaul him.
Papewaio
05-16-2012, 02:56
Boredom is a much greater punishment. That is why solitary confinement is the greatest punishment. To be alone with his own mind.
All three would be nice, I havent been keeping track of the story much and you and frag's post's seem to come out of nowhere.
Fjordman is a Norwegian anti-islam blogger who was repeatedly mentioned in Breivik's manifest. But a lot of people were, Geert.Wilders, Hirschi Ali, Bat Yor. I don't see why Fjordman should testify as he has never called for violence, they don't even know eachother. I don't blame him for not showing up as it seems that Norway wants to link him to the events. There are millions of people who think the same way about the islam including me, it's tasteless imho to use the deaths to kill an opinion, I certainly wouldn't volunteer to be a victim of a witchhunt. Discussion ought to be in the parlement not on trial.
Montmorency
05-16-2012, 03:53
ABB's defense strategy is to be found sane, and all the witnesses are summoned for that purpose. The second group is self-explanatory to that end. The first group is more interesting. It seems that the strategy is to prove that ABB's political views are not the result of paranoia, but that there are several people who share his views. So, he has summoned some historians, some politcal experts and some extremists of all colours. The list is restricted to norwegians, probably because only norwegians have a legal obligation to testify when summoned. Two of the summoned have stated their intention to disobey the court order, Stein Lillevolden(living in Copenhagen) and Peder Are Nøstvold Jensen, aka Chubby Curly Hair aka fjordman(living in Israel). Lillevolden has no respect for the judicial system whatsoever, so he's wasn't a big surprise. Fjordman, on the other hand, claims to defend the legal system, so he has shown himself as a complete hypocrite by his refusal.
:huh:
:huh:
Makes sense to me. If I'm not a citizen of another sovereign nation, I do not live, reside, nor am visiting it, and said nation attempts to apply legal actions or edicts upon me, I'd ignore them.
Montmorency
05-16-2012, 08:08
He's Norwegian. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjordman)
What strange creatures...
He's Norwegian. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjordman)
What strange creatures...
I think Horetore is perfectly aware that he's Norwegian, that is why he feels he should testify when summoned.
Fjordman is a Norwegian anti-islam blogger who was repeatedly mentioned in Breivik's manifest. But a lot of people were, Geert.Wilders, Hirschi Ali, Bat Yor. I don't see why Fjordman should testify as he has never called for violence, they don't even know eachother. I don't blame him for not showing up as it seems that Norway wants to link him to the events. There are millions of people who think the same way about the islam including me, it's tasteless imho to use the deaths to kill an opinion, I certainly wouldn't volunteer to be a victim of a witchhunt. Discussion ought to be in the parlement not on trial.
For goodness' sake man, "Fjordman" is called in by the defense, not the prosecution.
For goodness' sake man, "Fjordman" is called in by the defense, not the prosecution.
I know that and it doesn't matter, nobody wants to see Breivik released after all. This shouldn't become a political trial. I fully understand Fjordman ain't playing.
Of course it matters. It is Breivik that wants "Fjordman" in court in order to improve his defense. That's only reason that "Fjordman" may end up summoned.
Of course it matters. It is Breivik that wants "Fjordman" in court in order to improve his defense. That's only reason that "Fjordman" may end up summoned.
That is not what I read but alas I'm not from Norway, if so it's not that bad
spankythehippo
05-16-2012, 10:08
Boredom is a much greater punishment. That is why solitary confinement is the greatest punishment. To be alone with his own mind.
That would be bliss for me. I would gladly take solitary confinement.
He's Norwegian. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjordman)
What strange creatures...
He's anti-Islamic, yet studied in a predominantly Islamic country. I don't know what to say. There is the chance that his anti-Islamic sentiment was sparked by his experiences in Cairo, but I doubt it.
One of the most well known criticasters of islam in the Netherlands is also an arabist (Professor Hans Jansen). Even Hax will comfirm that he knows his stuff. I hope.
Edit, this is funny only for Dutchies, teh professor pwning a hissing gutmensch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZFBi34pR8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Needs saying that he isn't like Fjordman at all who is also way too extreme for my tastes
Yes, Hans Jansen is (or was) basically a great Arabist. The thing is that the way he left Leiden University has set some blood between him and some other professors here. I've talked with several of his (ex-)colleagues and students, which is a pretty interesting story in its own right, but they've all said that apparently, something in him just snapped at some point. They're not quite sure why, but I've heard from I think one of his ex-girlfriends that he always used to love the spotlight. Apparently, he told his ex-colleague Nico Kaptein that he likes being recognised in the supermarket so he can jump ahead in line. Oh well.
spankythehippo
05-16-2012, 10:41
One of the most well known criticasters of islam in the Netherlands is also an arabist (Professor Hans Jansen). Even Hax will comfirm that he knows his stuff. I hope.
Edit, this is funny only for Dutchies, teh professor pwning a hissing gutmensch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZFBi34pR8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Needs saying that he isn't like Fjordman at all who is also way too extreme for my tastes
A blogger and a scholar isn't exactly the same thing. Does Jensen display an anti-Islamic attitude? It doesn't seem like it. Fjordman, on the other hand, is different.
A blogger and a scholar isn't exactly the same thing. Does Jensen display an anti-Islamic attitude? It doesn't seem like it. Fjordman, on the other hand, is different.
Fjordman is an extremist he wants all muslims deported, Jansen just says what's what and warns about islam. Which is a mighty good idea. Certainly a difference. I don't think they feel all that differently about islam but Jansen understands that most muslims only care about what is for dinner.
Then again, Jansen and Ellian said some pretty nasty stuff about other professors here in Leiden. I don't know why.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-16-2012, 11:37
Then again, Jansen and Ellian said some pretty nasty stuff about other professors here in Leiden. I don't know why.
Academia can be extremely vicious - it is possible none of the things you heard about Jansen are true, it can be that bad.
I'm not passing judgement, I'm just saying.
Then again, Jansen and Ellian said some pretty nasty stuff about other professors here in Leiden. I don't know why.
Ellian was tortured in an iranian basement and Jansen gets deaththreats from the extreme left on daily bases because he testified in the Wilders trial, they have very little patience with any political correctness. And I Like that. University of Leiden doesn't.
What you perceive as political incorrectness could also be a lack of academic integrity. Which would not be a strange thing coming from Jansen, as he's been behaving the last couple of years.
To clarify: the lecturer Jansen was talking about is an Iranian-born professor of literature (whose name I'd rather not mention directly). He isn't even politically active, he's not a practicing Muslim and doesn't have to say anything about Islam, apart from analysing Ayatollah Khomeini's love poetry. So yeah, that was a bit odd.
Academia can be extremely vicious - it is possible none of the things you heard about Jansen are true, it can be that bad.
Jansen retired some few years ago, I don't know if you knew that.
Let me say that they didn't start it. He wasn't thrown out, he wasn't expelled, he actually retired quite peacefully. I think he's still giving some lectures from time to time.
Fragony, let me direct this personally to you, as you can understand Dutch. Here (http://www.novatv.nl/page/detail/uitzendingen/4101) is a video of my professor of Arabic grammar debating with Dyab Abu Jahja, the local creep from the Arab-European League, about the subject of the Danish cartoons. Listen to what he has to say.
HoreTore
05-16-2012, 23:34
:huh:
Only Norwegians(and those currently residing here) are bound by Norwegian law. We can't extend court orders over the border.
A lot of people were mentioned, yes frags. So, that explains why a lot of people have been called as witnesses. Did Frank Aarebrot have anything to do with ABB? Do they share the same ideology? No and no. Still, Aarebrot believes in the concept of fair trials, so he will honour the court order.
Fjordman/Chubbylittlecurlyhair has made it abundantly clear that he has no respect for the very foundation of western society.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-16-2012, 23:53
What you perceive as political incorrectness could also be a lack of academic integrity. Which would not be a strange thing coming from Jansen, as he's been behaving the last couple of years.
To clarify: the lecturer Jansen was talking about is an Iranian-born professor of literature (whose name I'd rather not mention directly). He isn't even politically active, he's not a practicing Muslim and doesn't have to say anything about Islam, apart from analysing Ayatollah Khomeini's love poetry. So yeah, that was a bit odd.
Jansen retired some few years ago, I don't know if you knew that.
Let me say that they didn't start it. He wasn't thrown out, he wasn't expelled, he actually retired quite peacefully. I think he's still giving some lectures from time to time.
Fragony, let me direct this personally to you, as you can understand Dutch. Here (http://www.novatv.nl/page/detail/uitzendingen/4101) is a video of my professor of Arabic grammar debating with Dyab Abu Jahja, the local creep from the Arab-European League, about the subject of the Danish cartoons. Listen to what he has to say.
I don't know Jansen at all, but I know Academia - I know about this controvosy and that Bruce Bradly can't get a job in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis
Bruce's detractors don't know what he does - that the Clovian stone tools are made the same way as the earlier Solutrean ones - so close it's stupid. When you consider the extremely low insidence of something being invented twice (the wheel never really got to the Americas) the likelyhood this is a co-incidence is fairly close to none.
Despite this, Bruce was not eminent enough to weather the political storm, so now he works in the South West of England. Out benefit - their immense loss.
iPad doesn't like that link Hax, but Jansen was never very loved by his fellow professors. These guys can be meaner to eachother than a pack of breezersluts who want the same guy
Skullheadhq
05-22-2012, 07:31
One of the most well known criticasters of islam in the Netherlands is also an arabist (Professor Hans Jansen). Even Hax will comfirm that he knows his stuff. I hope.
Edit, this is funny only for Dutchies, teh professor pwning a hissing gutmensch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZFBi34pR8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Needs saying that he isn't like Fjordman at all who is also way too extreme for my tastes
Oh well, proves the stupidity of the cultural marxists yet again.
Skullhead, did you watch my other link? Did you?
Skullheadhq
05-22-2012, 10:08
Skullhead, did you watch my other link? Did you?
No. What's it about?
My professor of Arabic grammar discussing the Muhammad cartoons with the AEL's local creep, Abu Jahjah. I think you'd find it interesting too.
My professor of Arabic grammar discussing the Muhammad cartoons with the AEL's local creep, Abu Jahjah. I think you'd find it interesting too.
Got a youtube link? Apple machines really don't like your video, they kinda change how think about not being able to watch what every smartphone easily plays forever
Try this one? (http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=2567805&fragid=1&autoplay=true)
Nope. Meh Apple, they will never understand that I buy a computer because I want to use it
Bunch of hipsters
Skullheadhq
05-22-2012, 15:43
Nope. Meh Apple, they will never understand that I buy a computer because I want to use it
Bunch of hipsters
Why would one even buy an apple computer?
Why would one even buy an apple computer?
Just a habit I guess, I already know how to use it.
Skullheadhq
05-22-2012, 16:10
Just a habit I guess, I already know how to use it.
Even my grandmother uses windows. It's easy. How do you even play games?
Even my grandmother uses windows. It's easy. How do you even play games?
On the playstation or when I should be working, I know how to use windows but I like iOS better
Nice one, Sky.
https://img825.imageshack.us/img825/8544/voldemortf.jpg
kind of funny, though.
Can someone please teach the English english
Skullheadhq
05-23-2012, 15:47
Our Charizard is trying to battle against Squirtle but this time Gary is much more determined than Ash.
Terrorists, gotta catch 'em all.
Can someone please teach the English english
You could be their teacher.
Greyblades
05-23-2012, 15:51
Can someone please teach the English english
What?
Skullheadhq
05-23-2012, 16:07
What?
He's talking about the screencap.
Greyblades
05-23-2012, 16:35
What, the lack of an "A"? I've seen worse mistakes from frag's himself.
What, the lack of an "A"? I've seen worse mistakes from frag's himself.
I don't work for a multimillion news-channel. English aren't very good at their own language, what is that 's' doing behind my nick for example, reads like 'Frag his himself'. I find that sloppy. On the internet ok, but if you are being payed for it it's kinda meh
I was personally thinking more of the relevance of comparing Behring Breivik to a fictional character with magical abilites, even if a witness did the comparison. Though I now see the BBC doing the same, hah.
https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/593/voldemort2o.jpg
A different kind of quote from that story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18172723):
Another survivor, 18-year-old Andrine Johansen, told how a boy, Henrik Rasmussen, had thrown himself in the way of bullets meant to kill her.
That guy died.
Skullheadhq
05-23-2012, 17:49
What, the lack of an "A"? I've seen worse mistakes from frag's himself.
I don't understand 60% of Frag's english posts.
I don't understand 60% of Frag's english posts.
I can do even worse in Dutch
Skullheadhq
05-23-2012, 18:02
I can do even worse in Dutch
Even when speaking?
I can do even worse in Dutch
Even when speaking?
Speak it just fine, I will never be flawlesns in it, but I can speak English just as easily as I speak Dutch really.
Skullheadhq
05-23-2012, 18:15
Speak it just fine, I will never be flawlesns in it, but I can speak English just as easily as I speak Dutch really.
That doesn't promise much good :sweatdrop:
but if you are being payed for it it's kinda meh
Paid?
Papewaio
05-24-2012, 01:11
If you want great English read an Irishman's writing.
I must say I am starting to have doubts about Breivik being sane
I must say I am starting to have doubts about Breivik being sane
I think it is rather fair to say, when if you near the point of Brevik, something has clearly broken upstairs.
I think it is rather fair to say, when if you near the point of Brevik, something has clearly broken upstairs.
Goes for the RAF as well but they were not insane. Insanity is a reason to be sentence more mildly and he doesn't deserve that. Mind you, it is not about him having a point on something, what he did has a mind of it's own
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-30-2012, 14:38
Paid?
Payed is still acceptable, if archaic.
If you want great English read an Irishman's writing.
Sad but quite true.
Payed is still acceptable, if archaic.
It's just right, 'paid' sounds differently. Did the dumbing down of language hit you as well, why do so the English are naturals
From court today, echoing similar earlier statments:
Indepent of what the police arrives at now, it will within one year and three months be proven that I am speaking the truth. There will then be a new attack.
This is in reference to this 'Knights Templar' network/organisation, which the police doubts exists. Who knows.
He has been bluffing before though, so I won't hold my breath..
Vladimir
05-30-2012, 15:15
From court today, echoing similar earlier statments:
This is in reference to this 'Templar Knights' network/organisation, which the police doubts exists. Who knows.
He has been bluffing before though, so I won't hold my breath..
They've already struck, in Mexico: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/05/cartels-cheetos/
At least one member of the Knights Templar cartel was reportedly arrested. Video has also emerged of firefighters battling the blazing trucks and the European Pressphoto Agency released images of Sabritas’ smiley-face mascot illuminated by the flames
A bit cheezy, I know.
From court today, echoing similar earlier statments:
This is in reference to this 'Templar Knights' network/organisation, which the police doubts exists. Who knows.
He has been bluffing before though, so I won't hold my breath..
It wouldn't surprise me if it's actually real
HoreTore
05-31-2012, 08:54
From court today, echoing similar earlier statments:
This is in reference to this 'Knights Templar' network/organisation, which the police doubts exists. Who knows.
He has been bluffing before though, so I won't hold my breath..
My guess is that it's something he hopes he has invented through his actions and manifest. He hopes someone else will follow him within that time.
And considering the ABB love threads at kvinneguiden.no, maybe it's not that far-fetched...
My guess is that it's something he hopes he has invented through his actions and manifest. He hopes someone else will follow him within that time.
And considering the ABB love threads at kvinneguiden.no, maybe it's not that far-fetched...
That's a real possibility but I think he's not kidding, something not happening would greatly lessen the impact of the Utoya massacre. He doesn't seem like the type that leaves anything to chance.
And considering the ABB love threads at kvinneguiden.no, maybe it's not that far-fetched...
So that has surfaced by now? It was to be expected, it's common that serial killers etc. have female "groupies (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTT1gkMfUrM#t=2m44s)" (even necrophiliac rapists, as shown in the link).
I don't think this phenomena will lead to any to any terrorist attacks though, it is a pretty different thing, I'd say. Some more on it here (http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/s_k_groupies/index.html).
If he wanted people to follow him, I don't think going on a killing spree on a youth camp is a very clever move. I don't see how lying about meetings of an organisation that does not exist yet is going to benefit his cause, either.
hohoho, freemasons = knights templar. Breivik is either crazy or he is not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_(Freemasonry)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freemasons
HoreTore
06-21-2012, 14:02
The prosecution says he's psychotic and asks for forced psychiatric care.
They are not convinced, but they feel that the doubt is big enough that he cannot be found sane.
ABB was acting like a brat(as usual) when the procedure was read.
I think they are wrong, and I think they are dumb
Kadagar_AV
06-21-2012, 14:39
Just shoot him and have it over with :quiet:
Greyblades
06-21-2012, 14:57
As cathartic as that would be, I wonder if that would just make him a martyr to right wing extremists. I doubt that the horror of his actions and the general unhinged nature of his philosophy would be enough to discourage some from following his ideas.
Kadagar_AV
06-21-2012, 15:15
As cathartic as that would be, I wonder if that would just make him a martyr to right wing extremists. I doubt that the horror of his actions and the general unhinged nature of his philosophy would be enough to discourage some from following his ideas.
He's already a martyr. I just prefer them dead.
What I find really weird is, that many people prefer to be sentenced to psychiatric care because the punishment is far less "severe" than the normal prison system. Also chance of reduced sentencing if his mental condition ever "improves".
Kadagar_AV
06-21-2012, 15:31
What I find really weird is, that many people prefer to be sentenced to psychiatric care because the punishment is far less "severe" than the normal prison system. Also chance of reduced sentencing if his mental condition ever "improves".
A) Psychiatric care is not "time-set"... which means he will never ever ever get out.
B) He did what he did as a political thing, to then shrug him off as a psycho totally devaluates (is that a word?) his actions.
As cathartic as that would be, I wonder if that would just make him a martyr to right wing extremists.
indeed. Breivik isn't insane, he's a cold piece of shit but he is not insane. He must be fully held responsible for what he did. The IRA isn't insane, Al Quaida isn't insane, the RAF wasn't insane. There is obviously something wrong with them but they are not insane.
Contrary to what HT writes, the prosecution does not believe that Behring Breivik is legally insane. It is a principle of law that if there is reasonable doubt surrounding the defendant's sanity, he shall be sentenced to compulsory psychiatric care. The prosecution believes that the first psychiatric report has introduced such doubt.
The judges may reach a different conclusion, we have no indications on what conclusion they will reach.
HoreTore
06-22-2012, 07:24
That's not contrary to what I wrote, Viking, that's exactly what I wrote.
The prosecution says he's psychotic
Hm.. ~;)
If it were not for the principle, I assume that they would have asked for punishment instead.
HoreTore
06-22-2012, 11:10
Hm.. ~;)
Yes, now read the rest ~;)
HoreTore
06-22-2012, 12:12
Oh well, last day of the trial today.
Four more victims have their closing statements, then ABB gets his closing statements, then it's over.
I have to say that I'm very please at how the trial has gone. A worthy showing of a functioning court system in my opinion. No circus, no nonsense. Especially since it's been a tremendous challenge for the courts, since a lot of the dilemmas they have faced are new dilemmas, they don't have much previous court practice to base their decisions on(like what is allowed to be shown on tv, for example). All in all, I'm pleased.
ABB remains a mystery. It's quite clear to me that he has some heavy personality disorders, but whether that's narcissism, paranoid schizofrenia, asperger or something else,I'm of course not qualified to have an opinion on. One thing has been etched into my memory though:
ABB has several times reacted to statements by saying "I have never in my life been depressed", "I have never in my life been rejected", etc. What does it mean? Is he aware that he's telling a lie, and that it's just a pr jippo for his supposed followers? Does he simply not know what "depression" and "rejection" means? Or has he somehow convinced himself that he's never been rejected or depressed? Is he unable to see and/or accept negative aspects of his own person? A colleague offered the suggestion that he has no contact with his own feelings.
As for criminally insane, I am not completely sure of his sanity, and I fully support the prosecution.
I have to say that I'm very please at how the trial has gone. A worthy showing of a functioning court system in my opinion. No circus, no nonsense.
I agree. Whatever the outcome Norway wins. What a shock it must have been to him that he gets a fair trial. Hats of to Norway you guys deserve a lot of respect for how you dealt with this.
Yes, now read the rest ~;)
There's a crucial difference between saying that someone should be treated as if insane and saying that they believe someone is insane. The last part of your post does at best contradict the first part; though that is not the way it reads to me.
HoreTore
06-22-2012, 18:54
There's a crucial difference between saying that someone should be treated as if insane and saying that they believe someone is insane. The last part of your post does at best contradict the first part; though that is not the way it reads to me.
It was fairly short and not very precise, as it was written a minute after Holden finished and 5 minutes before I left for work...
HoreTore
06-22-2012, 18:59
Just shoot him and have it over with :quiet:
Yes, several "conservatives who believes in justice and the rule of law" have that opinion...
I'm very happy those kind of people are not in charge here.
What I find really weird is, that many people prefer to be sentenced to psychiatric care because the punishment is far less "severe" than the normal prison system. Also chance of reduced sentencing if his mental condition ever "improves".
ABB doesn't prefer it though.
A) Psychiatric care is not "time-set"... which means he will never ever ever get out.
Neither is the prison sentence, so in that regard it's irrelevant.
HoreTore
06-22-2012, 22:03
A side note:
Earlier in the trial, ABB attacked Lillebjørn Nilsen's "barn av regnbuen", a norwegian translation of Pete Seeger's song "the rainbow race", stating that the song was an example of the multicultural indoctrination of children in Norway. As a response and protest, thousands of people met in central Oslo and many other cities to sing the song.
Today, ABB attacked Sex and the City, stating that the show is responsible for the decline in sexual morals. I eagerly await a response to this...... At least I know what my pick-up line is going to be tomorrow night. :smash:
'Do you agree this rag smells like chloroform'?
HoreTore
06-23-2012, 11:19
'Do you agree this rag smells like chloroform'?
Good one, but I was thinking more along the lines of "...if you go home alone tonight, THE TERRORIST WINS!!!"
Good one, but I was thinking more along the lines of "...if you go home alone tonight, THE TERRORIST WINS!!!"
They will know you are lying, he's in jail and can't get out. They are stupid but not THAT stupid. I think. Could work
Kadagar_AV
06-23-2012, 18:39
They will know you are lying, he's in jail and can't get out. They are stupid but not THAT stupid. I think. Could work
50/50
You are supposed to ignore my existance you are doing it all wrong
This kinda pisses me off, Norway's police is getting a cold shower from some serious jerks. It could supposedly have been prevented. It would seriously hurt my feelings if someone said I could have prevented it if a bomb just gone off in Oslo, who the hell expects that your recources are needed somewhere else at the same time if a bomb just went of causing several victims. Norway's police should just give them the finger and don't care about it being insensitive all that much. Because saying so is what is really insensitive. Especially after what they saw I feel really sorry for them that it is suggested they could have prevented it.
Bah, they did a great job. Respect for Norway just went down after masterfully dealing with this national trauma
rory_20_uk
08-13-2012, 13:18
Retrospect is always 20:20. In some cases when one has caused the situation, awareness of the likely outcomes is reasonable. In cases such as this it appears to be merely unhelpful
Could things have been done better? Almost certainly. Otherwise they'd be accused of being too prepared - did they have information and not act?
~:smoking:
HoreTore
08-13-2012, 14:56
This kinda pisses me off, Norway's police is getting a cold shower from some serious jerks. It could supposedly have been prevented. It would seriously hurt my feelings if someone said I could have prevented it if a bomb just gone off in Oslo, who the hell expects that your recources are needed somewhere else at the same time if a bomb just went of causing several victims. Norway's police should just give them the finger and don't care about it being insensitive all that much. Because saying so is what is really insensitive. Especially after what they saw I feel really sorry for them that it is suggested they could have prevented it.
Bah, they did a great job. Respect for Norway just went down after masterfully dealing with this national trauma
I think you have failed to understand what the July 22nd commission is about. Of course, with the media hyping of the report, that's no wonder.
In essence, every public department is told what they did good and what they could've done better. The criticism is, of course, structural, since their job was to look at structural plusses and minuses, not hunt down individuals.
Much of the criticism is old news, like the need for improved communication systems(a project which has lasted around a decade or so) and more flexibility(which is a problem for every organization above a certain size). Knut Arild Hareide, the commission leader, announced that "government ministers are likely to resign". I suspect he's referring to the comms equipment and minister Aaserud, but I fail to see why she would have to go because of that case.
There are some new questions being asked too. The biggest one is about the police rules of conduct, ie. how they should respond to a given situation. All the officers responded according to their orders, so if we want a different conduct we need a different set of rules. Do we want our police to be more "aggressive" and take more risk? Will a change in order from "assess the situation and act when its safe - and leave the dangerous stuff to the special unit" to "engage immediatly", for example, result in fewer deaths or just more dead officers? That's an important discussion that should definitely be taken post 22/7, but it's an internal one for the police. I know it's a utopia to hope that politicians and commentators stay out of it, but at least I can hope their nonsensical and populist babbling won't affectthose who are capable of having such a discussion.
The head of the police resigns though, think this is a bit more than a mere evaluation. Looks like politics got the better of him. This leaves a nasty taste in the mouth how unreasonable can you be
Dîn-Heru
08-18-2012, 10:40
....Knut Arild Hareide, the commission leader,...
Just for clarity's sake Knut Arild Hareide is leader of the christian democratic party opposition party and the transport and communications committee and the Stortingets (the parliament's) 22nd of July Committee, not the 22nd of July commission. (the leader of that is Alexandra Bech Gjørv)
The Stortingets 22nd of July Committe was establish to process the account made by the ministers of justice and of defense about the 22nd of July. The commision on the other hand looked into what happened on the 22nd, ie what went wrong and why. It is also independant of the parliament, the committee is not and consisted of MPs.
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