Obamacare Going Down?

[Vladimir]

Yes, obviously that's what I was referencing. Yawn.

Note that the Founders instituted not one but two individual mandates. Damn them for not knowing the constitution.

I thought so. People refer to the the founders when it's convenient to their arguments; however, they're irrelevant to this case. The issue involved is constitutionality of the mandate, determined by the Supreme Court, not to say that it, like slavery, was done before so we should do it again.

*Record for most commas in one sentence. And put back my semen!

[Lemur]

People refer to the the founders when it's convenient to their arguments; however, they're irrelevant to this case. The issue involved is constitutionality of the mandate, determined by the Supreme Court
Right, because I was saying IT HAS BEEN AND MUST BE SO AGAIN, clearly that was my argument, I was not making a historical note. And clearly precedent and history have no bearing on anything, ever. Into the memory hole! Begone, pesky history!

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I read something about that a couple weeks ago

My friend, Harvard law professor Einer Elhauge, has an essay in the New Republic, If Health Insurance Mandates Are Unconstitutional, Why Did the Founding Fathers Back Them?, in which he breathlessly recycles the same two supposed precedents for economic mandates under the Commerce Clause that have been much discussed over the past two years. The first is the requirement that ship owners provide insurance for their sailors. While navigation laws such as this one were an exercise of the commerce power, it is a garden variety regulation of how commerce, in this case the activity of shipping, is to be conducted. To be subjected to this regulation, you first have to engage in the commercial activity of shipping, or what was called, “the carrying trade.” The fact that this particular regulation required ship owners to provide insurance does not distinguish it from, say, regulations providing for life preservers or life boats (which also have to be purchased!).

The second is the well-trod example of the Militia Act that requires persons to provide their own weapons. Of course, this was an exercise of Congress’s militia power, and the militia duty traditionally required members to provide their own weapons. Contrary to Elhauge’s characterization of this as a “purchase mandate,” guns could be gifts or borrowed or inherited. There was no requirement that they be purchased. Challengers to the mandate have never denied that Congress has the power to require persons to do things. I have long listed the draft, jury duty, the filing of a tax return, and service on a posse, as examples of fundamental duties of citizenship that are owed to the government in return to the protection it affords to citizens. This is all explained in my 2010 article, Commandeering the People: Why the Individual Insurance Mandate is Unconstitutional. But just because the federal government has the power to make you fight and die for your country does not entail that it has the totalitarian power to make you do anything less than this.

Every court that has considered the constitutionality of the insurance mandate, including those judges that upheld its constitutionality, have concluded that this mandate is unprecedented. The fact that these two examples have been so well discussed, debunked, and rejected explains why the Solicitor General cited neither in his oral argument when Justice Kennedy characterized this Commerce Clause mandate as unprecedented. Indeed, the fact that, over two years into this debate, these are the only supposed examples of such mandates on offer by defenders of the Affordable Care Act strongly supports, rather than detracts from, the claim that such mandates are unprecedented. One reason why supporters of the mandate were so surprised by the apparent skepticism of some of the Justices towards this claim of Congressional power may simply be that they are not all that familiar with the constitutional arguments that have actually been made by the challengers in their briefs or the analysis presented in the opinions of lower court judges.

http://volokh.com/2012/04/13/still-unprecedented-recycling-the-same-two-examples-of-supposed-economic-mandates/

http://volokh.com/2012/04/13/58696/

http://volokh.com/2012/04/14/einer-elhauge-replies/


Though honestly I didn't find it interesting enough to do more than skim :shrug:

[Lemur]

The fact that these two examples have been so well discussed, debunked, and rejected explains why the Solicitor General cited neither in his oral argument when Justice Kennedy characterized this Commerce Clause mandate as unprecedented.
That's a strange assertion. The "thoroughly debunked," in particular, is odd, given that the Harvard law prof published on April 13th of this year (four whole days ago!), filed an amicus brief in favor of Obamacare, and responses (such as Volokh) are all quite recent.

A slightly less dismissive take from yet another blogger, including a response to the blogger you cite three times (http://jonathanturley.org/2012/04/14/did-the-founding-fathers-back-health-insurance-mandates/).

[a completely inoffensive name]

Interesting historical perspective (http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/102620/individual-mandate-history-affordable-care-act). Certainly shows that the founders faced the same quandaries and problems we do.

-cries- no one reads my posts.

[Vladimir]

-cries- no one reads my posts.

Too busy throwing darts at your avitar. ~;p

[Strike For The South]

I thought so. People refer to the the founders when it's convenient to their arguments; however, they're irrelevant to this case. The issue involved is constitutionality of the mandate, determined by the Supreme Court, not to say that it, like slavery, was done before so we should do it again.

*Record for most commas in one sentence. And put back my semen!

I'll agree Obamas mandates are the incestous result of the need to deliver on a promise and the lack of fortitude to stand his ground on anything meaningful

So I say scrap it

[Tsar Alexsandr]

And which one of the enumerable defintions would that be?

You kids need to step your game up

That statement means nothing.


Any statement can be interpreted to be meaningless. If you choose to interpret it as so.


I wasn't making an argument, just making a statement.


But if you're curious to know what I meant, which I doubt you are but oh well, let me list some basic tenants.


1. Government should not make decisions for you about lifestyle, religion or faith, or choose your occupation.

2. In addition to that, the government should not tell you what to do with your resources. (Aside from taxes.) I can't withhold a percentage of my taxes for opposing the war can I? I don't want Obamacare. I can't opt out can I? The government should not and can't require me to participate. (Ethically that is. But literally they can, of course.)

If the bill allowed people to opt out I'd be fine with it. Even if that means I have no healthcare because I do not want healthcare. If we were going to establish National healthcare why not add it to the taxes? Every other nation with a similar plan have free healthcare paid for by way of taxes. At least that way it could be adjusted more fairly.

3. A person should not be required to live in debt by law and decisions they didn't make. We can't all borrow money from China.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

That's a strange assertion. The "thoroughly debunked," in particular, is odd, given that the Harvard law prof published on April 13th of this year (four whole days ago!), filed an amicus brief in favor of Obamacare, and responses (such as Volokh) are all quite recent.

A slightly less dismissive take from yet another blogger, including a response to the blogger you cite three times (http://jonathanturley.org/2012/04/14/did-the-founding-fathers-back-health-insurance-mandates/).

uh, his says that because apparently these examples have been discussed for years, that's why he thinks it's silly that they are still being put forward. Also I linked to two people and one of them is quoting the response you link me to and responding to it. Anyway, I haven't done more than skim them I was just quoting them in case anyone was interested. But they don't seem to be simply dismissive to me.

acin I feel your pain.

[a completely inoffensive name]

acin I feel your pain.

https://i.imgur.com/7zBr2.jpg

[Lemur]

So I guess Obamacare passed its first judicial review. I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention, very busy day, but I checked here to see what was up:

A Children's Treasury of Wingnut Obamacare Freakouts (http://wonkette.com/476764/a-childrens-treasury-of-wingnut-obamacare-freakouts)

I don't think I've seen reactions this amusingly over-the-top since Governor Walker survived his recall. AMERICAN DEMOCRACY KEEPS DYING!

[Goofball]

That link is awesome. I love the idea of people moving to Canada to escape socialized medicine. That's just delightfully funny.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Ah yes, Canada. The last true bastion of free market capitalism. Let freedom ring!

I think this calls for another rousing rendition of the Canadian National Anthem. All rise.


Listen Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VILgSsesD0&feature=related)


Brings a tear to me eye. God Bless Canada, our special cousin to the North.

[Papewaio]

If they want free market health care move to China.

[HoreTore]

No need - China is moving to the US ~;)

[Lemur]

I love it when people have epic overractions. Apparently today is the day a lot of insurance plans are required to cover contraception. A politician pretty much goes Godwin (http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/01/13070876-republican-likens-contraceptive-mandate-to-pearl-harbor-911).

Pennsylvania Rep. Mike Kelly (R), an ardent opponent of abortion rights, said that today's date would live in infamy alongside those two other historic occasions. Wednesday marked the day on which a controversial new requirement by the Department of Health and Human Services, which requires health insurance companies to cover contraceptive services for women, goes into effect.

"I know in your mind you can think of times when America was attacked. One is December 7th, that's Pearl Harbor day. The other is September 11th, and that's the day of the terrorist attack," Kelly said at a press conference on Capitol Hill. "I want you to remember August the 1st, 2012, the attack on our religious freedom. That is a day that will live in infamy, along with those other dates."

[drone]

I don't understand.. why would you be against this? Contraception is dirt cheap, and there's no real downside to this kind of voluntary population control.
Not true. Morlocks gotta eat.

[Papewaio]

Is the government making people take contraceptives based on their religious choices? No.

So that statement made by the politician was pure incorrect hyperbole.

From what I understand of the situation:
The government is making health care companies provide contraception regardless of the religious choices of the company. Essentially it is mandating that health care companies cannot discriminate against individuals. So its more along the lines of allowing people of whatever colour to sit anywhere in a bus or eat at a restaurant.

All people regardless of creed should be treated equally. This means equal laws for all people and corporations. The government should not be hand picking laws to apply for against corporations based on the beliefs of the corporations operators, that would be discrimination and potentially supporting one religion above others.

[Major Robert Dump]

I don't understand.. why would you be against this? Contraception is dirt cheap, and there's no real downside to this kind of voluntary population control.

Silly fundies, always freaking out when good things happen.

Sometimes I honestly think religious fundies on the right want poor people to remain poor by ensuring they have too many kids, which makes more poor kids who have poor kids, and baboom we have our perpetual underclass who will work for mimimum wage and whom we can frame for our rapist frat boy son.

Can't have rich without poor