Modding matters. (and it doesn't)

[Whacker]

So I've been thinking a bit lately about games that I enjoyed to some extent, but that IMO missed a much greater chance at longevity in the world due to a lack of modding support or SDK release.

1. Far Cry 2. This game was pretty fun, but it had a number of stupid gameplay aspects that tarnished it for me, like no ability to 'clean' guns and restore them. Being able to mod some of those aspects, also things like ammo carry counts would have made it much more enjoyable. The whole racist hype probably sealed that deal before it was a day or so old, but still one could have hoped.

2. Wolfenstein 2009. Suffers from Interfacium consolitis. Other things could have used some tweaking, but overall the game itself was moderately fun, but like FC2 little replay value. Mods could have potentially extended it's life well past it's unfortunately short time in the spotlight. Plus I've always had a soft spot for Raven Games, most of the time their titles are solid gold and great fun. It's an id engine game, so there's absolutely zero reason why they couldn't have given us an SDK.

Had a few others in mind, will post if I remember. Wondering if anyone else has some they'd like to add? In general, the idea is "Games that could have been far better had the publisher released an SDK for them".

On the flip side, proof that I'm wrong:

1. Battlefield 3. I was desperately hoping that the unwashed masses would wake the hell up about Dice and EA's position on SDK release, seeing how mods were the absolute life blood of BF2. Everyone jumped all over it and proved me wrong though. :no:

[Vuk]

So I've been thinking a bit lately about games that I enjoyed to some extent, but that IMO missed a much greater chance at longevity in the world due to a lack of modding support or SDK release.

1. Far Cry 2. This game was pretty fun, but it had a number of stupid gameplay aspects that tarnished it for me, like no ability to 'clean' guns and restore them. Being able to mod some of those aspects, also things like ammo carry counts would have made it much more enjoyable. The whole racist hype probably sealed that deal before it was a day or so old, but still one could have hoped.

2. Wolfenstein 2009. Suffers from Interfacium consolitis. Other things could have used some tweaking, but overall the game itself was moderately fun, but like FC2 little replay value. Mods could have potentially extended it's life well past it's unfortunately short time in the spotlight. Plus I've always had a soft spot for Raven Games, most of the time their titles are solid gold and great fun. It's an id engine game, so there's absolutely zero reason why they couldn't have given us an SDK.

Had a few others in mind, will post if I remember. Wondering if anyone else has some they'd like to add? In general, the idea is "Games that could have been far better had the publisher released an SDK for them".

On the flip side, proof that I'm wrong:

1. Battlefield 3. I was desperately hoping that the unwashed masses would wake the hell up about Dice and EA's position on SDK release, seeing how mods were the absolute life blood of BF2. Everyone jumped all over it and proved me wrong though. :no:

Not everyone. I still refuse to buy BF3. I spend more time modding games than playing them. Games, after all, are all about creating your own experience (that is what separates them from movies), modding is simply that taken a step farther.
Modding isn't good from a greedy business perspective because if people can be satisfied with a game for a lot longer, they have less motivation to go buy a new one, and therefore cannot be milked as much. It doesn't always work out how they like though, because many gamers (such as myself) refuse to buy games that do not support modding (with very few exceptions, and even then, usually a few years later when I get it for a steal on sale).
I will once again bring up the ultimate classics, DX and Thief. To this day people still make Thief fan mission. DX modding was a little slow to catch on, but currently there is still an active and vibrant modding community for it (though admittedly rather small).

[Whacker]

Not everyone. I still refuse to buy BF3. I spend more time modding games than playing them. Games, after all, are all about creating your own experience (that is what separates them from movies), modding is simply that taken a step farther.
Modding isn't good from a greedy business perspective because if people can be satisfied with a game for a lot longer, they have less motivation to go buy a new one, and therefore cannot be milked as much. It doesn't always work out how they like though, because many gamers (such as myself) refuse to buy games that do not support modding (with very few exceptions, and even then, usually a few years later when I get it for a steal on sale).
I will once again bring up the ultimate classics, DX and Thief. To this day people still make Thief fan mission. DX modding was a little slow to catch on, but currently there is still an active and vibrant modding community for it (though admittedly rather small).

In this we are of one mind, my large chunologist friend.

-----------------------------------

The other big one I forgot to include in my list:

3. Deus Ex - Human Revolution. This game wasn't bad at all, but it's definitely fallen very rapidly by the wayside as it's star declines, and for all the initial hype, it's rarely mentioned at all these days. One moderately crappy DLC, and that's it. Had they released an SDK for it at some point, I am 100% confident that it would have remained in the spotlight much longer, and as such much more profitable than it is/was. Sadly it seems that it's become another poster child of the dev house's "dump and run" mindset, where they keep cycling through major titles and prefer to continuously shift attention to whatever new is coming out, investing the bare minimum of time and resources to get something hyped and out the door.

[lars573]

So I've been thinking a bit lately about games that I enjoyed to some extent, but that IMO missed a much greater chance at longevity in the world due to a lack of modding support or SDK release.

1. Far Cry 2. This game was pretty fun, but it had a number of stupid gameplay aspects that tarnished it for me, like no ability to 'clean' guns and restore them. Being able to mod some of those aspects, also things like ammo carry counts would have made it much more enjoyable. The whole racist hype probably sealed that deal before it was a day or so old, but still one could have hoped.

2. Wolfenstein 2009. Suffers from Interfacium consolitis. Other things could have used some tweaking, but overall the game itself was moderately fun, but like FC2 little replay value. Mods could have potentially extended it's life well past it's unfortunately short time in the spotlight. Plus I've always had a soft spot for Raven Games, most of the time their titles are solid gold and great fun. It's an id engine game, so there's absolutely zero reason why they couldn't have given us an SDK.

Had a few others in mind, will post if I remember. Wondering if anyone else has some they'd like to add? In general, the idea is "Games that could have been far better had the publisher released an SDK for them".

On the flip side, proof that I'm wrong:

1. Battlefield 3. I was desperately hoping that the unwashed masses would wake the hell up about Dice and EA's position on SDK release, seeing how mods were the absolute life blood of BF2. Everyone jumped all over it and proved me wrong though. :no:
Here's the problem. Modding was something that dev's and publishers allowed to happen as it didn't cost them anything. And look now that it does modding is becoming a thing of the past.

[Kekvit Irae]

Including modding tools, or easy access to modding, will always be good business sense. There are people, like myself, who value paying 60 dollars for a game with an extended lifespan via modding over 60 dollars for a "play it once and you're done" experience. The former is a no-brainer, and the latter is something I need to weigh in whether or not I really need the game (and more often than not, I don't).

I am FAR more inclined to recommend moddable games like Dungeons of Dredmor to friends than if it didn't have the ability to easily mod it.

[Voigtkampf]

The Skyrim example gives hope that modding is neither about to die out nor that is it incompatible with the interests of the developers and publishers. I sincerely hope that devs and publishers will see the potential in modding community to earn even more money that way, if not for any altruistic reasons, and decide to go down that road. IMHO, it is very much like the F2P debate in MMO's and the question if that business model would pay off at all.

[Monk]

Mount and Blade: Warband is a perfect example of what happens when you have a modable game. I'd stopped playing it agest ago but Veho Nex turned me onto a mod that lets you play a regular foot soldier. I mean think about it, MB is a game where you build up your own army and later become a ruler, and this mod was completely contrary to that. Stripping away your freedom (largely) and turning you into a grunt, able to rise through the ranks and fight for the leige of your choice. It was both a simplistic concept as well as an incredibly fun mod. It was also the only reason I've played warband in the last six months.


Here's the problem. Modding was something that dev's and publishers allowed to happen as it didn't cost them anything. And look now that it does modding is becoming a thing of the past.

I'm really not sure how modding can be blamed for any loss of sales. How does keeping a game relevant through user created content and community fixes in any way damage the product's lasting appeal? If anything it does the opposite, my own example of MB:Warband as well as the aforementioned Skyrim, are both games that benefit greatly from the inclusion of mod support. I mean if we're being perfectly honest? I only bought Warband so that I could play the Prophecy of Pendor mod that people were were raving about. Dead serious on that, and it's not the first time i've bought games for specific mods! ~:)

Modding keeps old games relevant in a way that developers cannot afford to. Vampire the Masquerade is a wonderful example of that. After the devs cut support to that game the community still continued to patch it. They've been patching it, literally, for years, and today if you want to buy that game and aquire those community patches? It's a hundred times more fluid and workable experience.

That just isn't the case for games who are released with closed systems and are unmoddable. As much as I enjoyed Shogun 2, i feel this is it's biggest downside and why I find it perfectly understandable that people still enjoy Medieval 2 or RTW more. The latter games were so much more open ended and able to be modded that viability as a game is still around today. I would never tell someone to pick up RTW for it's vanilla game, however, I've recommended they buy it solely for Europa Barbarorum many times. :yes:

[lars573]

Not what I was talking about. I was talking about DLC. It's growth has gone hand in hand with more games being locked up and un-moddable. Because when free access to the game files mean't you could copy and distribute content that others should pay for means that free access had to go.


The Skyrim example gives hope that modding is neither about to die out nor that is it incompatible with the interests of the developers and publishers. I sincerely hope that devs and publishers will see the potential in modding community to earn even more money that way, if not for any altruistic reasons, and decide to go down that road. IMHO, it is very much like the F2P debate in MMO's and the question if that business model would pay off at all.
Elder Scrolls games aren't a good example. The PC versions of the previous 2 ES games shipped with editor programs. It's part of the ES game experience.

[Voigtkampf]

Elder Scrolls games aren't a good example. The PC versions of the previous 2 ES games shipped with editor programs. It's part of the ES game experience.

I called it out as an example on how the modding possibilities made Skyrim even more popular than it already was, definitely boosting its sales, as opposite to, say, TW games that are less and less friendly to the modders.

[Hamata]

some aspects of shogun 2 are easier to mod. such as unit sizes unit weapons and stuff like that it's kind of a trade off. like say you wanted to give a ashigaru a katana just copy and paste it's animations onto the ashigaru and there.