Let's have a scrap! This week the Mayor of London.

[InsaneApache]

Boris v Ken?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Boris v Ken?

Boris, on the basis tat Ken is a dishonest champagn liberal tax dodger, and a not-quite-in-the-closet Nazi. Frankly, I'm stinned Millie hasn't dropped him like a rock after he actually said, "Jews won't vote for me because they're rich" and something akin to, "when I was Mayor I kept the Muslims happy, so fewer Jews got beat up."

[Justiciar]

Who ever the hell the other chaps are fielding. The police chief fellow. Whats his name. Him. Or possibly the Green one. A female, perhaps.

[spankythehippo]

Boris, because he's got weird hair.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Boris, on the basis tat Ken is a dishonest champagn liberal tax dodger, and a not-quite-in-the-closet Nazi. Frankly, I'm stinned Millie hasn't dropped him like a rock after he actually said, "Jews won't vote for me because they're rich" and something akin to, "when I was Mayor I kept the Muslims happy, so fewer Jews got beat up."

You're making Ken cry. :wink:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You're making Ken cry. :wink:

Good.:smug:

I wonder if David would have been as forgiving as his brother?

As an aside, I had to search for Ed's name, and it almost didn't come to me.

[gaelic cowboy]

Didnt Boris have a scrap with Call me Dave in number ten lately, apparently lunged for some document and two of them were rolling around supposedly.

[InsaneApache]

If so I bet Boris gave 'call me Dave' a bloody good hiding. He deserves one.

I know about 'liftgate' when the Turkish one had the Newt in his sights.

Does anyone remember such a divisive and negative campaign? All that 'Ken is Ken' from the Labour leadership is wearing a bit thin. Or is it only rightwingers who can be racists these days?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Didnt Boris have a scrap with Call me Dave in number ten lately, apparently lunged for some document and two of them were rolling around supposedly.


If so I bet Boris gave 'call me Dave' a bloody good hiding. He deserves one.

I know about 'liftgate' when the Turkish one had the Newt in his sights.

Does anyone remember such a divisive and negative campaign? All that 'Ken is Ken' from the Labour leadership is wearing a bit thin. Or is it only rightwingers who can be racists these days?

There are two versions of the "fight" story - the piece of paper was supposedly a Treasury Brief about how much money Dave could give Boris. depending on which one you ask Boris either shoved David's face into the sofa and then nuggied him until he got crossrail, or Dave kept the piece of paper away from him.

Of course, I'm not sure the journalist in question was being serious.

As to Ken being a racist - you have it backwards IA, Lefty's can't be racists - so he obviously isn't.

See?

Of course, in reality racism is much more a working man's, and therefore "Lefty" vice because the Upper Class tend to look down on everyone without reference to colour or creed.

[Greyblades]

"I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally."

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally."

Who said anything about hate?

[rory_20_uk]

Boris. Ken is a two faced twerp who has one set of rules for himself and purports to have another set for everyone else. Boris may be a Tory, but he isn't merely a drone who mindlessly follows central diktats.

~:smoking:

[Greyblades]

Who said anything about hate?

Er, sorry, I was kinda speaking for myself not you.
I can see how that could be misinterprited, but I would rather we didn't go over this again.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Er, sorry, I was kinda speaking for myself not you.
I can see how that could be misinterprited, but I would rather we didn't go over this again.

No it's not that. I actually don't get the comment.

Not to over analyse, but the quotation marks imply that it's supposed to be words in the mouth of some group, if said group is the Upper Class, aka the Aristocracy, then you misinterpreted my point.

for an example of what I'm talking about, consider the raised eyebrows in Whitehall regarding George V's treatment of African Commonwealth soldiers he met during WWI.

[gaelic cowboy]

didnt groucho marx say that or summit

[Greyblades]

Oh, well when PVC said "the Upper Class tend to look down on everyone without reference to colour or creed." it kinda reminded me of the quote I had heard once said in jest, it seemed to be funny at the time and I thought it would be somewhat humorous here.

I guess I'm not exactly Pizza guy or Strike when it comes to making fun of a situation.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Oh, well when PVC said "the Upper Class tend to look down on everyone without reference to colour or creed." it kinda reminded me of the quote I had heard once said in jest, it seemed to be funny at the time and I thought it would be somewhat humorous here.

I guess I'm not exactly Pizza guy or Strike when it comes to making fun of a situation.

Don't worry, I lol'd.

[InsaneApache]

didnt groucho marx say that or summit

I believe the correct quote is: "Work is the curse of the drinking classes".

[Kralizec]

I'd have to say I chose Boris. I don't know much about local politics in the UK, but from what I do know, Red Ken is a crypto-marxist who openly sympathizes with people like Hugo Chavez. Since I don't think that a person like Red Ken is likely to be ignorant about what happens in Venezuela while still somehow being in favor of it, he's in my opinion an utterly repugnant person.

Boris, by contrast, has "folksy charm". By that I mean that his rethoric is as crass as the ramblings of an alcoholic coal miner. I find that endearing.

[spankythehippo]

"I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone equally."

Tom Araya said something like that.

[Beskar]

It takes either a genius or a fool to successfully run the city of London, luckily, Boris is both.

[gaelic cowboy]

It takes either a genius or a fool to run the city of London, luckily, Boris is both.

Excellent observation I believe we have a winner.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I concur - a well educated fool to boot!

[Greyblades]

Hear, Hear.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It takes either a genius or a fool to successfully run the city of London, luckily, Boris is both.

Excellent observation I believe we have a winner.

Sounds clever, means nothing.

I just summed up 98% of 'intellectual' discussion on the internet.

As for voting, I just ask "which individual/party is going to help me get a job?". When I find one that fits that description I will make the effort to vote and maybe care about what is going on in the world of party politics.

[Beskar]

Sounds clever, means nothing.

Not completely true. It is more saying the complication and mechanics involved and in such a way to successfully run the city of London, you need to be a genius who is able to comprehend what is actually going on to be able to put in effect the required and desired changes, or you are so foolish, you just clumsily stumble into randomly making all the right steps. I was commenting that we are lucky that our Boris is both (refering to his mannerisms and contrasting intellectual prowess), so he is bound to successfully run the city of London.

[Furunculus]

Boris.

For no other reason that Ken has always been a dangerous idiot.

[Strike For The South]

It's London, an airport and a few soccer stadiums. The place runs itself

Isn't this the queens job anyway?

[Tellos Athenaios]

It's London, an airport and a few soccer stadiums. The place runs itself

You forget the sizable deployment of armed forces and heavy machinery in place to keep the locals in check and prevent them from getting any quaint notions about "rights".

[Greyblades]

Oh, there's no fear of that, the riots proved they dont even want the right to property! :P

[Tellos Athenaios]

Oh, there's no fear of that, the riots proved they dont even want the right to property! :P

But what if they should frighten the horses? ~;)

[gaelic cowboy]

Sounds clever, means nothing.

I just summed up 98% of 'intellectual' discussion on the internet.

As for voting, I just ask "which individual/party is going to help me get a job?". When I find one that fits that description I will make the effort to vote and maybe care about what is going on in the world of party politics.

None of course

[econ21]

Ken, as he seems a fundamentally decent human being.

Boris seems a ruthless populist with no discernable principle beyond self-advancement. I am still curious how he has had such a successful career after being recorded agreeing to give his crooked friend, Darius Guppy, the address of Stuart Collier, a journalist, so Guppy could have the journalist beaten up. He makes Lord Archer look like the Archbishop of Canterbury in comparison.

[Vladimir]

Well that's an entertaining opinion. Does he seem "fundamentally" decent to you because of ideological sympathy?

[InsaneApache]

There's nothing decent about Ken. Ken's for Ken.

He is dangerous though.

[econ21]

Well that's an entertaining opinion. Does he seem "fundamentally" decent to you because of ideological sympathy?

Maybe in part it's ideological sympathy. But he just seems one of those rare politicians that when he talks, sounds like he is thinking about the issue, telling you what he believes and that the values underlying his beliefs are good, altruistic, public spirited ones. Most politicians tend to unthinkingly rejurgitate their soundbites, positively shimmer with insincerity or embody mean spirited or alien values. There are some on the right that are exceptions - Ken Clarke comes to mind - but I admit they are rare. (Ron Paul impresses me with his thoughtfulness and honesty, but I just find his "liberty at any price" ideology alien.) I don't think Boris is thoughtful, don't think he is honest and don't think he has any core values whatsoever. He should have a criminal record, not be sacking the top policeman in the UK.

I must confess my regard for Ken's humanity comes partly from watching some crass TV show where a comedian shadowed him with a TV crew and tried to embarass him with stunts like a mock comic beating of another accomplice. Ken's reaction was very genuine - turning away in disgust, spurning the comedian and his camera crew.

[Vladimir]

Thank you.

I honestly have never heard anything good about him so I was genuinely curious. To us, Tony Blair was a great PM and I know how that worked out. I know I'd never vote for Ken but it's good to know he had some redeeming value.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Firstly, B
Maybe in part it's ideological sympathy. But he just seems one of those rare politicians that when he talks, sounds like he is thinking about the issue, telling you what he believes and that the values underlying his beliefs are good, altruistic, public spirited ones. Most politicians tend to unthinkingly rejurgitate their soundbites, positively shimmer with insincerity or embody mean spirited or alien values. There are some on the right that are exceptions - Ken Clarke comes to mind - but I admit they are rare. (Ron Paul impresses me with his thoughtfulness and honesty, but I just find his "liberty at any price" ideology alien.) I don't think Boris is thoughtful, don't think he is honest and don't think he has any core values whatsoever. He should have a criminal record, not be sacking the top policeman in the UK.

I must confess my regard for Ken's humanity comes partly from watching some crass TV show where a comedian shadowed him with a TV crew and tried to embarass him with stunts like a mock comic beating of another accomplice. Ken's reaction was very genuine - turning away in disgust, spurning the comedian and his camera crew.

Firstly, Boris is definately a thinking man - there's no doubt about that. You should read his column in the Telegraph, don't worry it's free so you won't be soiled.

Secondly, Ken baits Muslims - to the extent that he flirts with anti-Semetism.

Thirdly, Ken said some extremely nasty things about tax dodgers - he pays all his earnings into a private comany and they pays corporation tax, rather than the higher tax band.

[Beskar]

I love the Boris "Have I got news for you" episodes. They are so drawn out where they keep baiting Boris off-subject resulting into more hilarity.

[gaelic cowboy]

Boris can be a bit of a foot in mouther sort of fellow though cant he, sure he recently pissed off the various Irish associations in London with some stupid comments about Sinn Fein dinners.

Boris Johnson says sorry about St Patrick's Day 'lefty Sinn Fein crap' remark (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boris-johnson-says-sorry-about-st-patricks-day-lefty-sinn-fein-crap-remark-3047449.html)

It probably would have went unremarked but for his current position and that it was quite near to Paddy's Day to start with, it was a stupid thing to say in an election year.

[Idaho]

Both Ken and Boris are egotistical idiots more interested in their own presitge and status than anything else.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Both Ken and Boris are egotistical idiots more interested in their own presitge and status than anything else.

Yeah, but Ken's a Crypto-Anti-Semnite.

[InsaneApache]

Yeah, but Ken's a Crypto-Anti-Semnite.

Fixed.

[rvg]

Yeah, but Ken's a Crypto-Anti-Semnite.

He's not running for mayor of Tel-Aviv though.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

He's not running for mayor of Tel-Aviv though.

No, he's running for Mayor of London - a city with probably one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe and definately some of the most important Synagoges and Rabbinical Seminaries in the Commonwealth.

[rvg]

No, he's running for Mayor of London - a city with probably one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe and definately some of the most important Synagoges and Rabbinical Seminaries in the Commonwealth.
Yeah, but is he proven to be an anti-semite or is it mostly hearsay? How does his alleged anti-semitism manifest itself?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yeah, but is he proven to be an anti-semite or is it mostly hearsay? How does his alleged anti-semitism manifest itself?

"Jews won't vote for me, because they're rich."

To Jewish Reporter, "You're like a Concentration Camp Guard!"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/01/nick-cohen-george-galloway-livingstone?INTCMP=SRCH
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/01/nick-cohen-george-galloway-livingstone?INTCMP=SRCH)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/19/lord-sugar-tweets-ken-livingstone

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/23/backed-ken-livingstone-mayor-before

How's that?

[rvg]

How's that?

That's pretty bad. The "surprised he's even running for office with a non-zero chance of victory" kind of bad.

[Idaho]

"Jews won't vote for me, because they're rich."

To Jewish Reporter, "You're like a Concentration Camp Guard!"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/01/nick-cohen-george-galloway-livingstone?INTCMP=SRCH
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/01/nick-cohen-george-galloway-livingstone?INTCMP=SRCH)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/apr/19/lord-sugar-tweets-ken-livingstone

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/23/backed-ken-livingstone-mayor-before

How's that?


To be fair, there isn't a lot of actual solid content there. Just lots of people agreeing that they don't want to support him because of er... something...

One of the articles seems to basically say that Jews shouldn't support him because he talks to Muslims.

And why are you quoting from the Guardian? I thought you only quoted from the Telegraph?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's pretty bad. The "surprised he's even running for office with a non-zero chance of victory" kind of bad.

How about, "surprised his Jewish party leader lets him" bad?

I think that's it, really. If Ed just went, look, I'm not putting up with this, he'd sink.

Actually, that would be a great way for David to knife his brother, by knifing Livingstone.

For why he might win, this is what Boris is up against (London is left-leaning): http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/20/boris-johnson-eton-londoners-not-vote

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

To be fair, there isn't a lot of actual solid content there. Just lots of people agreeing that they don't want to support him because of er... something...

One of the articles seems to basically say that Jews shouldn't support him because he talks to Muslims.

No, they shouldn't support him because he thinks all Jews are rich and he worked for Iranian television.

Edit: And you're not being fair, you just can't stomach the idea of a Tory running the Capital.

Well, says I, better an elitist philandere descended from Royal bastards than that racist lying twerp.

There was also the issue of him decrying tax dodgers dspite doging income tax himself.

[gaelic cowboy]

No, they shouldn't support him because he thinks all Jews are rich and he worked for Iranian television.

Edit: And you're not being fair, you just can't stomach the idea of a Tory running the Capital.

Well, says I, better an elitist philandere descended from Royal bastards than that racist lying twerp.

There was also the issue of him decrying tax dodgers dspite doging income tax himself.

An he looks a bit dodgy too this Ken fella so he does.

Put a pair of glasses on Boris an you would have a kind of modern Billy Bunter, likes the pies an a bit crass but sure he would be a bit of craic.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

An he looks a bit dodgy too this Ken fella so he does.

Put a pair of glasses on Boris an you would have a kind of modern Billy Bunter, likes the pies an a bit crass but sure he would be a bit of craic.

Aye you're right, this "Ken" does look a bit suspicious.

[Idaho]

Edit: And you're not being fair, you just can't stomach the idea of a Tory running the Capital.

I couldn't care less who runs the capital, it doesn't affect my life at all. London is always going to have someone fairly Tory in charge. I don't like either of them. Boris because he fundamentally holds the interests and views of his elite social set, and Ken because he's a weirdo with too great a penchant for power to be healthy.

[Greyblades]

At least boris is funny in a "turns up at the christmas party as santa" funny, almost sort of charming. From whats been said of Ken, he's funny in a sort of "found trying to sodomize a reindeer while dressed as an elf" funny.

[InsaneApache]

Now that's a mental image to conjure up as I eat my tripe and onions!

[Idaho]

At least boris is funny in a "turns up at the christmas party as santa" funny, almost sort of charming. From whats been said of Ken, he's funny in a sort of "found trying to sodomize a reindeer while dressed as an elf" funny.

The trouble with matey, friendly, can-imagine-having-a-pint-with Tories, is that they are still Tories. They have little experience or empathy with the lives of the vast majority of people, and support policies that those in their cultural circle endorse - ones that work to the detriment of that majority and the advantage of that cultural circle.

[Greyblades]

Now that's a mental image to conjure up as I eat my tripe and onions!

Sorry, I think I need more practice at being funny before I try to go there.

The trouble with matey, friendly, can-imagine-having-a-pint-with Tories, is that they are still Tories. They have little experience or empathy with the lives of the vast majority of people, and support policies that those in their cultural circle endorse - ones that work to the detriment of that majority and the advantage of that cultural circle. A Tory's still a Tory, though considering milliband and his ilk I'm still inclined to side with the Tory/lib-dems right now.

[Idaho]

Sorry, I think I need more practice at being funny before I try to go there.
A Tory's still a Tory, though considering milliband and his ilk I'm still inclined to side with the Tory/lib-dems right now.

Labour are a sack of ship, it's true. The Tories though... even for them, this lot are poor. They seem to be making it up as they go along (in fact you can remove the "seem to be").

I'm looking for even lower turnouts in the next election. That's when the established parties are in big danger of being picked off by single issue candidates... as I have long predicted, and is already happening.

[Greyblades]

We can only hope.

Monster Raving Loonie Party For The Win!

[InsaneApache]

The problem with the Lib-Lab-Con trick is that there's not much between them. It's like walking into a pub that sells mild, bitter and lager but when you examine the pipes they all go into the same barrell. Psychopathic scum the lot of them.

[rvg]

The problem with the Lib-Lab-Con trick is that there's not much between them. It's like walking into a pub that sells mild, bitter and lager but when you examine the pipes they all go into the same barrell. Psychopathic scum the lot of them.
At least you get three parties to choose from.

[gaelic cowboy]

The problem with the Lib-Lab-Con trick is that there's not much between them. It's like walking into a pub that sells mild, bitter and lager but when you examine the pipes they all go into the same barrell. Psychopathic scum the lot of them.

I believ it was Liam Cosgrove here who said in answer to the question whats the difference between Fine Gael and Fianna Fail.

"the Difference is were in and there out" he was Taoiseach at the time just like his father was earlier in the 1920s.

[Furunculus]

And why are you quoting from the Guardian? I thought you only quoted from the Telegraph?

why would we not...........?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And why are you quoting from the Guardian? I thought you only quoted from the Telegraph?

Thats says more about you than me. The Columnists in the Telegraph quote the Guardian, and not ironically. Actually, I can quote a female London Jew in the Telelgraph saying the same thing about Livingstone as the male Jew in the Guardian, but I thought it might be more pointed coming from the Left.

I read both papers every day on the premise that the inherrent biases should cancel each other out.


The trouble with matey, friendly, can-imagine-having-a-pint-with Tories, is that they are still Tories. They have little experience or empathy with the lives of the vast majority of people, and support policies that those in their cultural circle endorse - ones that work to the detriment of that majority and the advantage of that cultural circle.

Except, matey Tories actually drink in pubs while the current Labour elite only drink in trendy wine bars, and that really begs the question of who is most out of touch.


Labour are a sack of ship, it's true. The Tories though... even for them, this lot are poor. They seem to be making it up as they go along (in fact you can remove the "seem to be").

I'm looking for even lower turnouts in the next election. That's when the established parties are in big danger of being picked off by single issue candidates... as I have long predicted, and is already happening.

You mean like the Muslim "I'm not a Muslim, I swear!" George Galloway?

How is that better?

If you really don't like the system maybe you should stand in the next General Election, or even a local one.

[Beskar]

Ding ding ding.

Boris wins.

[Greyblades]

Saw that one coming.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thanks be to God.

Edit: Knifing the Jew-hater: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100156311/boris-wins-so-ken-livingstone-how-did-that-wealthy-jews-thing-work-out-for-you/

[Ja'chyra]

And in the fight of slimey posh tosser against slimey not so posh tosser the posh one wins.

Who cares really?

I didn't even go vote last week as I couldn't decide whether to vote for the one who got a bin put in the high street or the one who got the gents toilets closed due to all the, err, goings on, or the rest of them who, well, just are apparently.

[Idaho]

If you really don't like the system maybe you should stand in the next General Election, or even a local one.
I am unconvinced that participating in something daft can lead to it becoming less daft.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I am unconvinced that participating in something daft can lead to it becoming less daft.

Democracy is not daft. If everybody who said our current crop of politicians are stooges either stood or voted for an independant against the stooges there would be far fewer stooges in power.

Refusing to participate in the system means aquiencing to being governed by it.

If you really believe it's that bad then you should actually oppose it, otherwise you're just indulging in the international sport of pointless bellyaching.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Thanks be to God.

Edit: Knifing the Jew-hater: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100156311/boris-wins-so-ken-livingstone-how-did-that-wealthy-jews-thing-work-out-for-you/

Observing the fact that the Jewish community is wealthy is like observing the fact that the American black community is poor. And the link between wealth and voting patterns is obvious.


The problem with the Lib-Lab-Con trick is that there's not much between them. It's like walking into a pub that sells mild, bitter and lager but when you examine the pipes they all go into the same barrell. Psychopathic scum the lot of them.

Spot on, how people are interesting in following these parties or getting invovled with them is beyond me.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Observing the fact that the Jewish community is wealthy is like observing the fact that the American black community is poor. And the link between wealth and voting patterns is obvious.

Wrong on both counts, not only are their relatively poor Orthodox communities, but as a bloc the Jewish vote tends to cant left, just like the rural poor tend to cant right. Read the article, what the guy is saying is that the Jewish vote supported Labour Councillors and Assembly members, but not Ken.

That's because he hates Jes.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Wrong on both counts, not only are their relatively poor Orthodox communities, but as a bloc the Jewish vote tends to cant left, just like the rural poor tend to cant right. Read the article, what the guy is saying is that the Jewish vote supported Labour Councillors and Assembly members, but not Ken.

That's because he hates Jes.

I doubt Ken hates Jews, it was most likely an attempt to make a populist appeal to Muslim voters that backfired.

As for poor Jews, there are immigrants that came over from Eastern Europe in the past couple of hundred years that are not particularly wealthy, but they are fairly distinct from the more established Jewish families that have very disproportionate wealth compared to the UK population as a whole.

There is nothing conspiratorial about this, is it the natural result of the historic professions they were forced into, as well as the fact that they have a strong, supportive community and focus on education.

Their historic support for the left (although nowadays weaker) wasn't due to the economic side obviously but because the left was seen as less hostile to minority groups.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I doubt Ken hates Jews, it was most likely an attempt to make a populist appeal to Muslim voters that backfired.

As for poor Jews, there are immigrants that came over from Eastern Europe in the past couple of hundred years that are not particularly wealthy, but they are fairly distinct from the more established Jewish families that have very disproportionate wealth compared to the UK population as a whole.

There is nothing conspiratorial about this, is it the natural result of the historic professions they were forced into, as well as the fact that they have a strong, supportive community and focus on education.

Their historic support for the left (although nowadays weaker) wasn't due to the economic side obviously but because the left was seen as less hostile to minority groups.

Well that nixes "The Jews are Rich" because families like the Goldsmiths and Roschilds are not voting blocks unto themselves.

As for Red Ken, I invite you to look at the links I posted in their thread.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm not just talking about your ultra-rich families, I mean those that are well established in the legal and finance side of things.

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Jews):

"British Jews generally have high levels of educational achievement. Compared to the general population, they are 40 percent less likely to have no qualifications, and 80 percent more likely to have "higher-level" qualifications."

It is just a fact that they fare better in education and employment.