View Full Version : ORG, TWC, and the Official Forum - what would the ORG specialize in?
Here is my first post as a senior member! (p.s. If you are older than 34 please feel free to slam me.)
As I skipped E:TW and N:TW due to school and career reasons, when I returned to patronize the ORG, I find that while there are still many enthusiastic and intelligent moderators and contributors, the once glorious anonymous flock that repeatedly bumped the hit count of significant posts to 4 or 5 digits have largely migrated to... our sworn enemy TWC!... I mean the very friendly and nice site TWC. (In my distant memory, ORG was a huge franchise while TWC was a small business.)
When I browse the TWC, I cannot help but notice also the great work of the people in charge. I am not saying they are better people - just more people. I also noticed an especially large modding community. However, as population increase, you can see ungrateful and uncivilized forum users... yes we will then blame their parents, blah blah. But contributors who like to increase their readership will think twice about where to go.
But of course there is the official forum on Steam. It definitely has the largest user base, but I can't call them fans. I only go there to complain about bugs and hope that CA people can see them more easily. But quality works gets instantly drowned out by "how do I play this game" type of questions.
I am no business person at all, but my instinct tells me that we ORG have to "brand" ourselves, so users have something in mind when they think of ORG. I am not saying we should go out and "compete" with TWC or others. We are not running for profit, right? So there is no point in that. But we just want something to... hm, define ourselves. For example, users would go to the official site to complain about bugs, to the TWC to look at mods, and to the ORG to...? A good starting point is frogbeastegg's great guide for STW2. Personally, when I get Shogun Total War 2, I would go to google and type "Shogun Total War 2 tips", "Shogun Total War 2 forum", and choose which forum to learn from and to patronize. If I want tips, I wish to see high-quality strategic articles and maybe video links for tactics. If I want to ask questions, I want to pick a place where there are friendly and knowledgable members who respond and discuss with maturity. (As a result GameFAQs is usually the last place I want to be.)
I wonder what do the managers have in mind? :) Just throwing out some ideas for now.
rickinator9
04-21-2012, 13:05
TWC seems much more serious. We play a lot of forum games like Mafia. I don't see that anywhere in the other forums.
TWC seems much more serious. We play a lot of forum games like Mafia. I don't see that anywhere in the other forums.
TWC plays Mafia games as well.
johnhughthom
04-21-2012, 13:51
TWC plays Mafia games as well.
It's on life support though...
Rhyfelwyr
04-21-2012, 15:30
.org has mafia and more intellectual discussion. I think the average age of TWC posters in their political etc discussions is a fair bit lower.
frogbeastegg
04-21-2012, 15:54
If I want tips, I wish to see high-quality strategic articles and maybe video links for tactics. If I want to ask questions, I want to pick a place where there are friendly and knowledgable members who respond and discuss with maturity. (As a result GameFAQs is usually the last place I want to be.)
This is about right. We aim to be a friendly, mature community with as much helpful content as possible. Guides, research, strategy discussion threads, videos, and anything else which can be managed. We'd like any new player to be able to register and ask for help, and be certain of getting a pleasant reply. I believe that we have the infrastructure to support that, with our guides and research forums, media gallery, and image hosting capabilities. We will consider any suggestions people have as well, and will implement any which are practical. The question is always how we can support and encourage patrons who are likewise interested in this content, particularly those who are generous enough to spend time creating it.
We also want people to be able to discuss the games without the aggressive atmosphere which is frequently found on the internet. People should be able to say they like or dislike aspects of the game without fearing a horde of angry people telling them that they are, well let's politely say "stupid" and leave it at that. People do not need to post lengthy analysis of why they do or don't like the games - and nor do we want them to feel like they must! - but at the same time it's nice to be able to do that without getting people posting "TLDR lol" and nothing else. It's nice to post something and feel like readers will consider it, even if they totally disagree with the idea. Discussion is frustrating when you feel you are being dismissed after the first three words fail to agree with the reader's own ideas.
Away from our TW content, we like to keep that same atmosphere. Whatever people are interested in doing here, we'd like them to be able to do it without having someone screaming gamefaqs style abuse in their face. Again, we're open to any suggestions people have on what we can add or improve, or do to support patrons' own efforts.
I suppose you could consider us the friendly local pub to TWC's big night club and .com's on-site bar. Still alcohol, different clientele and decor.
:bow:
edyzmedieval
04-21-2012, 17:00
Very well said Froggy. :bow:
I do miss the hustle and bustle of 2005/2006 Org a lot, but the quality of the posts is still high.
It's quantity vs quality... TWC's user base probably has a lower average age? The TW games, in my opinion only, since RTW have been squarely aimed at children and the "casual gamer" rather than the mature players who helped popularise the series and who populated this forum back in the day. The .org is obviously tailored towards an older audience and built up it's own unique user base over the years of the maturer player. In real terms this has resulted in a decline over the last few years.
My opinion is that the .org needs to continue to focus on the maturer player as TWC is already there for the kids...
Indeed I absolutely salute the "Confusian Academy" (strategy articles) area of the ORG.
By the way, I have seen some methods in other forums to promote user participation.
(1) "Recommended" threads
The moderators have the authority to mark a thread as special (with a special icon). The forum can then display only the recommended threads. Alternatively, there can be a sticky list of all recommended post, organized by different categories.
This makes it easy to find good articles and discussions. The recommended threads can be further ranked by a few number of tiers (but personally I think it makes things unecessarily complicated). This is considered the highest status of a thread. All users have a "recommended thread" counter (if they are they original author) and a link to all their recommended thread in their personal profile for others to refer to. This also makes it easy for the moderators to reward the important contributors objectively.
(2) "Highlighted" threads
The moderators have the authority to give a thread's subject a different color or bold font. This makes the post easier to be noticed. But it does not carry the same weight as the recommended thread, as it might not be as important. But may be a good read for the moment (like an important news release from CA).
(3) Rating system
The power and responsibility goes to the users - the users can freely rate others' posts. The forum makes it possible to rank posts by their scores. I believe the users here are mature enough not to register 100 accounts to give their own posts good reviews.
Just some ideas... :bow:
frogbeastegg
04-22-2012, 12:07
:bow:
Thread rating is already present. I think all account levels should have access. If you look at the top of a thread, there should be a button called "Rate thread" next to "View first unread" and "Thread tools". If it's not visible for normal users I'll ask a techie to check our settings. We've also got a "Thanks" system which allows users to mark posts they found particularly useful, and that should help to highlight them without going too bling-bling.
We'll need to see if suitable vbulletin mods are available for the other two suggestions. When we know what tech options are available, we can better look at whether we want to trial them on the site. It can be surprisingly hard to find suitable mods. There's a couple of very basic usability features I want which are impossible to get unless you use very old forum software.
Thread rating is already present. I think all account levels should have access. If you look at the top of a thread, there should be a button called "Rate thread" next to "View first unread" and "Thread tools". If it's not visible for normal users I'll ask a techie to check our settings.
Thread rating is not enabled for non-staff.
frogbeastegg
04-22-2012, 12:44
Thread rating is not enabled for non-staff.
Well that was easy. :laugh4:
In that case, looks like there's one minor tweak which would need making. We don't want everyone able to rate a thread as "CA post present". To PM ...
Tellos Athenaios
04-22-2012, 15:01
By staff you mean forum staff plus local moderators, right?
we also need to invite more people into the modding sections of the forums here rome total war mediveal 2 total war modding is practicly dead here except Eb and a few others
edyzmedieval
04-23-2012, 19:19
I would really like it if the Org would get more traffic and more posters would come in. :yes:
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-24-2012, 21:11
If the Org is to surivie, it must be like TWC or the TWC forums. It must be bigger. At the moment, we have less users. We need more promotion and more bigger avatars. We need active forums.
Alexander the Pretty Good
04-25-2012, 04:19
Why should we make the .Org like other sites? If I wanted a website like the .com or TWC I would go there. I don't want another .com or TWC. If you want the .Org to be like those sites, just go to those sites.
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-25-2012, 07:32
Why should we make the .Org like other sites? If I wanted a website like the .com or TWC I would go there. I don't want another .com or TWC. If you want the .Org to be like those sites, just go to those sites.
Well, there are less active forums here for one. Second, If the Org was a such a big business back then it's not anymore now. It's rather redundant and small. And to be honest, it should have some sort of big forums. Why, the TWC is massive now, releasing Napoleonic total war III. Whats with the org? Nothing.
If the Org is to surivie, it must be like TWC or the TWC forums.
Does the web have the need for two such forums as TWC...? :rolleyes:
It must be bigger. At the moment, we have less users. We need more promotion and more bigger avatars. We need active forums.
Well, there are less active forums here for one. Second, If the Org was a such a big business back then it's not anymore now. It's rather redundant and small. And to be honest, it should have some sort of big forums.
Do you have a plan of action... something in the way of details for putting any of this into practice? "It must be this" and "we need that" is mere talk...
Why, the TWC is massive now, releasing Napoleonic total war III. Whats with the org? Nothing.
I don't want to bash TWC, I've not posted there much, but I've never had trouble with the staff, etc - but from my perspective it mostly caters to kids. The .org originated in a time when adults still played these games, both SP and MP, in rather significant numbers - before the days of steam, before the dark times, before Empire... I mean Medieval 2 ok Rome.
The .org could allow custom avatars, that wouldn't hurt anyone, but the .org has a "theme" and wants to stick to it. I don't agree with that, but taking the other side of the argument for a second - most of us knew and accepted that when we joined. Times have changed however and the .org probably does need to bow to pressure and consider allowing custom avatars in the near future (custom signatures seem to be allowed - I personally don't see the difference).
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-25-2012, 16:05
Does the web have the need for two such forums as TWC...? :rolleyes:
Do you have a plan of action... something in the way of details for putting any of this into practice? "It must be this" and "we need that" is mere talk...
I don't want to bash TWC, I've not posted there much, but I've never had trouble with the staff, etc - but from my perspective it mostly caters to kids. The .org originated in a time when adults still played these games, both SP and MP, in rather significant numbers - before the days of steam, before the dark times, before Empire... I mean Medieval 2 ok Rome.
The .org could allow custom avatars, that wouldn't hurt anyone, but the .org has a "theme" and wants to stick to it. I don't agree with that, but taking the other side of the argument for a second - most of us knew and accepted that when we joined. Times have changed however and the .org probably does need to bow to pressure and consider allowing custom avatars in the near future (custom signatures seem to be allowed - I personally don't see the difference).
First, stop being rude with me. I did not talk to you in such a way and therefore demand an apology.
Do you have a plan of action... something in the way of details for putting any of this into practice? "It must be this" and "we need that" is mere talk...
If you disclaim my talk is mere rubbish, then I'm afraid what you're speaking is absolute crap.:) How would you bring this into practical theory? You're crazy, I can't go on the website and edit it! Do I have that power? No, the Mods have.
I don't want to bash TWC, I've not posted there much, but I've never had trouble with the staff, etc - but from my perspective it mostly caters to kids. The .org originated in a time when adults still played these games, both SP and MP, in rather significant numbers - before the days of steam, before the dark times, before Empire... I mean Medieval 2 ok Rome.
There is a strict policy of respect. You're disrespecting that. You're saying ''kids''. Well, Adults should not feel it that way. If kids like it, let them like it. It seems everyone here hates them. No, not here in the world! You know that the real drisicimantion is not about the colour of your skin, it's kids.
Times have changed however and the .org probably does need to bow to pressure and consider allowing custom avatars in the near future (custom signatures seem to be allowed - I personally don't see the difference).
That is what I have said and you dismiss it.
First, stop being rude with me. I did not talk to you in such a way and therefore demand an apology.
That's a huge overreaction and drama...
If you disclaim my talk is mere rubbish, then I'm afraid what you're speaking is absolute crap.:) How would you bring this into practical theory? You're crazy, I can't go on the website and edit it! Do I have that power? No, the Mods have.
I see... I don't remember writing "rubbish". I said "mere talk"... nor have I suggested you "edit the website"...:inquisitive:
I asked if you had a "plan of action", what's wrong with that...?
There is a strict policy of respect. You're disrespecting that. You're saying ''kids''. Well, Adults should not feel it that way. If kids like it, let them like it. It seems everyone here hates them. No, not here in the world! You know that the real drisicimantion is not about the colour of your skin, it's kids.
Eh... what? Who's policy?
That is what I have said and you dismiss it.
In fact didn't dismiss anything - you seem to have gotten your knickers in a twist over nothing. I said in effect "let's see your plan". And why not? I'd like to know how you'd put what you've suggested here into practice.
Peasant Phill
04-25-2012, 18:19
The masses have shifted from the Org to TWC. We (every Orgah, not just the staff) are all very much aware of that. Regardless, becoming a second TWC in style and behavior isn't the answer. For one, there already is a TWC, why would those patrons move to the copycat. Secondly, niches (we have to admit that the Org caters to a certain kind of TW fan) are there for a reason. TW itself started as a niche game.
Just please be aware that there are many members on this site actively discussing how to keep the balance between keeping the atmosphere of the Org and keeping a healthy member base.
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-25-2012, 18:23
That's a huge overreaction and drama...
I see... I don't remember writing "rubbish". I said "mere talk"... nor have I suggested you "edit the website"...:inquisitive:
I asked if you had a "plan of action", what's wrong with that...?
Eh... what? Who's policy?
In fact didn't dismiss anything - you seem to have gotten your knickers in a twist over nothing. I said in effect "let's see your plan". And why not? I'd like to know how you'd put what you've suggested here into practice.
You were being downright rude here and talking to me as if you were the lazy person and I was the fool. I demand an apology at once!
I see... I don't remember writing "rubbish". I said "mere talk"... nor have I suggested you "edit the website"...
Mere talk is rubbish.
I asked if you had a "plan of action", what's wrong with that...?
How the heck am I supposed to have a plan of action? Ask the mods!
Eh... what? Who's policy?
A made up policy to remind you of being a Official racist and discriminator against Children.
let's see your plan". And why not? I'd like to know how you'd put what you've suggested here into practice.
What plan? I don't have a damn plan! How am I supposed to do that? All I can say are opinions!
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-25-2012, 18:27
The masses have shifted from the Org to TWC. We (every Orgah, not just the staff) are all very much aware of that. Regardless, becoming a second TWC in style and behavior isn't the answer. For one, there already is a TWC, why would those patrons move to the copycat. Secondly, niches (we have to admit that the Org caters to a certain kind of TW fan) are there for a reason. TW itself started as a niche game.
Just please be aware that there are many members on this site actively discussing how to keep the balance between keeping the atmosphere of the Org and keeping a healthy member base.
Are you very sure on that? Far as I know nearly everyone is less active. If they all shifted to the TWC, that's because most of the members here have to adapt to new things now. They cannot keep the hatred they feel for the Japanese. What's done is done. If the Org doesn't have much co-operation from CA, as on it's offical forum website, I'm afraid we're cut loose. And TWC has over a million members of course. If the ORG needs to surivies, it's members must come too it's aid. Whether on any website.
The only unformulated problem is that is this an Amercian website, I don't mean to be offensive here, And here they talk a lot about the points of view from Amercians only. Any different view is simply not accepted. Remember that Total War has become one of the most recognized games in the world. And there is an international pool of players. NTW has the most European players in their multi player community. ETW has many americans. SH2TW however has thousands of British and Europeans, including Americans and Japanese Amercians. Remember now that Total war has become famous, it's websites must cater to international standards. Simply by keeping it Amercianzied won't do any good. After all, isn't the USA the most powerful country in the world? No wonder you get less accperation from other websites. Once I showed my hatred of this website on the TWC forums( The Official onesof the websites) and one of the guys said that the Org was racist and really out of reach. So I conduct that you take surveys of the Org on every total war website and see how much it ranks, and how much people like it. You must accept new players, regardless of their countries and origin. Action must be taken by now. If it is not, then I'm afriad the Org will go bang!
:Thread rating is already present. I think all account levels should have access. If you look at the top of a thread, there should be a button called "Rate thread" next to "View first unread" and "Thread tools". If it's not visible for normal users I'll ask a techie to check our settings.
I can't locate the "rate thread" tool, so I guess senior member is a non-staff. (sob)
There are four links on my top right:
View First Unread, Thread Tools, Search Thread, Display.
I would recommend that the "Thank" icon be increased so people can be thankful more frequently. :laugh4:
Ja'chyra
04-25-2012, 20:31
Are you very sure on that? Far as I know nearly everyone is less active. If they all shifted to the TWC, that's because most of the members here have to adapt to new things now. They cannot keep the hatred they feel for the Japanese. What's done is done. If the Org doesn't have much co-operation from CA, as on it's offical forum website, I'm afraid we're cut loose. And TWC has over a million members of course. If the ORG needs to surivies, it's members must come too it's aid. Whether on any website.
The only unformulated problem is that is this an Amercian website, I don't mean to be offensive here, And here they talk a lot about the points of view from Amercians only. Any different view is simply not accepted. Remember that Total War has become one of the most recognized games in the world. And there is an international pool of players. NTW has the most European players in their multi player community. ETW has many americans. SH2TW however has thousands of British and Europeans, including Americans and Japanese Amercians. Remember now that Total war has become famous, it's websites must cater to international standards. Simply by keeping it Amercianzied won't do any good. After all, isn't the USA the most powerful country in the world? No wonder you get less accperation from other websites. Once I showed my hatred of this website on the TWC forums( The Official onesof the websites) and one of the guys said that the Org was racist and really out of reach. So I conduct that you take surveys of the Org on every total war website and see how much it ranks, and how much people like it. You must accept new players, regardless of their countries and origin. Action must be taken by now. If it is not, then I'm afriad the Org will go bang!
What are you talking about? I'd suggest you calm down just a bit.
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-25-2012, 20:56
What are you talking about? I'd suggest you calm down just a bit.
How dare you? I'm talking what the Org is and what it needs to do in order to improve. Seems you Org Members can't even read my posts carefully! Disgraceful, I say, disgraceful. CAN YOU NOT READ WHAT I WROTE?? CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? And, no, I was not angry in my post! And don't you tell me to calm down, It's perfectly safe to read my post!
Er... as the thread opener, here are my inputs to make the ORG more popular (while not losing the quality):
1. Game-related contests - I see a video contest for shogun 2 and think it is a fantastic idea. For this very video contest it will be nice to have multiple awards/mentions (best battle, best story, most humerous, etc) to increase the participation (as not everybody is super creative) and exposre of good works (as many people want to see good gameplay videos). I can also think about periodic contests about screenshot and stories (apparently people now call it AARs - I personally hate acronyms so I will stick with stories).
2. Some kind of systematic reward for high-quality works
Be it a story, a strategy, a discussion... the "Thank" system is actually a great existing, quantitative system, but unfortunately it is not very frequently used. Maybe we can give members some kind of ranks based on how many thanks they receive. Then the site can reward these appreciated members with mentions and previleges (and cough, responsibilities) possibly with those badges that hang below the avatar.
A good start is to make the Thank icon a little bigger and maybe move it to somewhere more noticable.
Is there a way to display the number of "thanks" in a thread on the forum's thread list? Then it will be equivalent to a recommendation system.
3. Custom Avatar
Allowing custom avatar up to a certain size is a good start to increase user's loyalty. I don't think it will break the theme as the users are still here to post about the game and related things. They are not here to talk about Mass Effect even though they may look like Commander Shepard. (Endorcement: And this is my favorite post on the ORG.)
That's it for now.
I agree with a few points in the above posts in particular:
1. We do not need to be like the TWC, COM. Exactly. We want to be able to find things that uniquely define the ORG. If people think of the ORG, they will think of something that we offer as a unique feature.
2. ORG must think of ways to increase visits and participation. I think this will come naturally if we get the nice features in place and bump up our ranks on google.
And here are the points I do not agree with:
1. We cater to a more mature fan base and the others cater a younger fan base. I think a good site should aim to take everyone if they wish to visit. The youngs, if left along, will act their age. But if they are among the wise, most watch and learn (while a few get thrown out). There is no point to purposely keep out the young, as one day they will become the pillars of the ORG. My current loyalty to the ORG comes from my participation here 11 years ago.
2. We do not want to become a second TWC. Aren't our goal to dominate the TWC like the old days? :P Just kidding. We want to be as popular as the current TWC, or the prevoius ORG. :bow:
Er... as the thread opener, here are my inputs to make the ORG more popular (while not losing the quality):
1. Game-related contests - I see a video contest for shogun 2 and think it is a fantastic idea. For this very video contest it will be nice to have multiple awards/mentions (best battle, best story, most humerous, etc) to increase the participation (as not everybody is super creative) and exposre of good works (as many people want to see good gameplay videos). I can also think about periodic contests about screenshot and stories (apparently people now call it AARs - I personally hate acronyms so I will stick with stories).
For that you need members who have the talent to participate in contests and have the dedication to put in some hard work. Such members are always a minority on all sites and if you're a site with not many members, such members will be rare. One thing that could be done is advertising our contest on other websites. Some websites won't like that, others won't make a big deal out of it (e.g. TWC has been very nice and cooperative in the past with allowing us to advertise contests and all kinds of stuff, like games in the Throne Room or mafia games in the GR). Perhaps advertising our contests on gamersfora of other strategy games (e.g. Paradox games) could help.
These are things that can be done by every member here (e.g. if you have an account at the Paradox fora or the TWC, you can talk about an .Org contest or mafia game there).
I'm going to be very honest here: staff can't bring the .Org back to its' glory days all by themselves. We need the help of our members for that. All our members. We're a community. Yes, I know there's the feeling of there being a sort of distinction between staff and not staff, but please, you shouldn't look at us as "different". Staff is only here because, well, a community is made out of humans and some form of organisation is needed. But in the end, staff are also .Org members, just like everybody else. Just like all other members who care for this place, staff cares.
We don't have the illusion of holding all the wisdom in the world. Our role is to serve the community. But it's the community as a whole, all members of it, so also the non staff members, that needs to work together.
Suggesting things and posting ideas is a good first step. Working on those ideas is the necessary second step and also the hardest part. It would be good to see all members who have time and ideas to do a bit of work too.
We need to be a community and stick together and collectively work on this place to get somewhere. And if you need "special powers" to get your project up and running, by all means, pm one of us.
2. Some kind of systematic reward for high-quality works
Be it a story, a strategy, a discussion... the "Thank" system is actually a great existing, quantitative system, but unfortunately it is not very frequently used. Maybe we can give members some kind of ranks based on how many thanks they receive. Then the site can reward these appreciated members with mentions and previleges (and cough, responsibilities) possibly with those badges that hang below the avatar.
A good start is to make the Thank icon a little bigger and maybe move it to somewhere more noticable.
Is there a way to display the number of "thanks" in a thread on the forum's thread list? Then it will be equivalent to a recommendation system.
These are good suggestions. I've been playing with a similar idea: create badges for people who did something extra. I've been playing with this idea for GR hosts, like a badge for everybody who has hosted a set number of games. Idem dito for the Throne Room. Perhaps more forms of recognition for modders, writers of AAR's, people who post guides.
I know we have the senior member system, but perhaps that's not enough diversity.
I also realise that some of our members don't like to see distinctions, ranks etc. That's in fact a strong argument against it. But then again, how do you motivate people to do work, for free, on some gaming site? It's nice to get recognition. It's nice to be thanked. It's nice to know people appreciate what you did. And it's only a badge. Something small. A little gesture that can make all the difference in the world.
3. Custom Avatar
Allowing custom avatar up to a certain size is a good start to increase user's loyalty. I don't think it will break the theme as the users are still here to post about the game and related things. They are not here to talk about Mass Effect even though they may look like Commander Shepard. (Endorcement: And this is my favorite post on the ORG.)
That's it for now.
Ah, the avatars. We did a poll on that some time ago and a clear majority was in favour of keeping the current system.
Then again, the idea is to attract new members, so why is it important what current members think. Because the current members are what make the place what it is, of course. Their opinion is valuable and we don't want to alienate the current userbase. In the end, there's no guarantee that allowing custom avatars will bring us even an inch closer to getting more popular.
Please, let the ideas come, it's good to have food for thought. I think I'll bundle some of the ideas from this thread and put up polls about it. Don't hold back on ideas, even if you think they'll be "revolutionary" or a complete different style than the .Org style. In the end, we (and with "we" I mean all of us, all members), need to decide on our direction: keep everything as it is with the risk of this place eventually simply fading away or change some things drastically, which may mean (no guarantees, there never are) more new blood, but also losing a bit of our current identity (you can't have everything).
I'd like to hear input from as many members as possible; new members, senior members, regular members, oldtimers, people who just signed up 5 minutes ago; everybody. Be open. Share your thoughts and no idea is too crazy.
a completely inoffensive name
04-25-2012, 22:40
How dare you? I'm talking what the Org is and what it needs to do in order to improve. Seems you Org Members can't even read my posts carefully! Disgraceful, I say, disgraceful. CAN YOU NOT READ WHAT I WROTE?? CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? And, no, I was not angry in my post! And don't you tell me to calm down, It's perfectly safe to read my post!
I am having monastery flashbacks.
Sasaki Kojiro
04-25-2012, 23:23
How dare you? I'm talking what the Org is and what it needs to do in order to improve. Seems you Org Members can't even read my posts carefully! Disgraceful, I say, disgraceful. CAN YOU NOT READ WHAT I WROTE?? CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? And, no, I was not angry in my post! And don't you tell me to calm down, It's perfectly safe to read my post!
This issue is deeper than you think. You see, we have two websites, the org and the twc, and I can technically read both, but how am I supposed to find the time to read both? I suppose I could go through all the posts, but this would be a meaningless waste of time, when someone could just say "this website is better". So that would be the nice thing to do, because it would be you helping me, saving me a lot of time, by sacrificing only a little bit of your own time. So it would be nice, once it is released for someone to give me a ranking of the totalwar websites. Somehow I don't think that will happen. Perhaps am I wrong, and I hope I am.
Of course, you might think that sacrificing that bit of time is meaningless to you because you don't know me, which is of course is a discourse suggesting you can decide who deserves respect (ie who you would spend a bit of time telling information to save them time) and who doesn't deserve respect. In this case you are deciding I don't deserve respect
This is called elitism. It has been done for centuries, and in hindsight, it is always wrong. It is wrong to enslave people, it is wrong to oppress women, it is wrong to not help the poor, is it wrong to make people "serfs", it is wrong to discriminate based on race, on age, whatever.
And we are still fighting it today. People come around like Thomas Jefferson, Adolf Hitler, and many others, and say "I know who deserves respect, and who doesn't". For 6,000 years elitism has never been right.
The opposite of elitism, and the only other discourse is liberalism (the label liberalism and elitism don't mean anything, I just use them because I think they fit best, you can use whatever label). Liberals believe in two principles, #1 that we should expand the rights of those recognized as people, and #2 that we should expand who is a recognized person.
Liberalism simply says one thing, respect and love everyone equally. If you believe that you should respect and love everyone equally, that no one, no matter they believe, deserves to be disrespected, and treated poorly, than you are a liberal, and you are a Christian by definition. I shouldn't get too deep into the Christian piece, because so many pervert what Jesus did, but it makes it eaiser to illustrate how you are not supposed to judge. Christians (those who are a Christian based on deeds, not labels) don't judge, just like liberals don't judge. Christians confess their sins, and try to do the right thing. Liberals admit when they make a mistake, apologize, and try to do the right thing Liberals and Christians are one in the same.
So, we can conclude only one thing, I have to question whether you and the other twcers as a whole are Christians/Liberals, since they are one in the same. Because what you say, what the twc people are as a whole, what happens in many threads and discussions between non-members and member is elitism. Look at this thread, as one example, but there is many more on the the forum right now.
You see, we have these statements against me, of which elitists will claim are jokes. But you don't take serious arguements as jokes, unless you don't respect them. Obviously my arguement wasn't respected, which is fine if you don't believe everyone deserves respect in every scenario, and if you believe you can pick and choose who deserves respect, which is the definition of an elitist.
So let us find out if this arguement gets respect. Will it be deleted because think they can judge? Will acin make jokes about it? Will people start hating each other? I feel it now "oh some stupid religious guy is trying to tell us how to act..."
I'm not allowed to judge you, or be the judge, because liberals and Christians respect everyone. But at the same time, I have an obligation, as a Christian and a liberal, to question you actions, so, are you a liberal, or are you an elitist? Now this does not mean I think I'm perfect, and only I can judge, I'm simply stating no one can judge, lets all be nice all the time to everyone. Now God knows I don't do this, but I try, and I admit when I haven't done this, which is all Jesus asks.
So do you think you can judge, are you God? Because what I'm going to find out soon enough, is if I deserve respect, which is a reflection of whether or not you are an elitist. So, will I get the list, or will I be denied because of who I am?
The only unformulated problem is that is this an Amercian website, I don't mean to be offensive here, And here they talk a lot about the points of view from Amercians only. Any different view is simply not accepted.
That's a rather odd statement, considering that over the last 8+ years the head admins of the site have all been Europeans.
Alexander the Pretty Good
04-26-2012, 01:52
Woah dude
What?
I actually moved from TWC to the Org. :laugh4:
I like it here, it may not be as active, but the people are nicer and the debates are nice to watch, as well as the TR and GR.
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-26-2012, 07:26
This issue is deeper than you think. You see, we have two websites, the org and the twc, and I can technically read both, but how am I supposed to find the time to read both? I suppose I could go through all the posts, but this would be a meaningless waste of time, when someone could just say "this website is better". So that would be the nice thing to do, because it would be you helping me, saving me a lot of time, by sacrificing only a little bit of your own time. So it would be nice, once it is released for someone to give me a ranking of the totalwar websites. Somehow I don't think that will happen. Perhaps am I wrong, and I hope I am.
Of course, you might think that sacrificing that bit of time is meaningless to you because you don't know me, which is of course is a discourse suggesting you can decide who deserves respect (ie who you would spend a bit of time telling information to save them time) and who doesn't deserve respect. In this case you are deciding I don't deserve respect
This is called elitism. It has been done for centuries, and in hindsight, it is always wrong. It is wrong to enslave people, it is wrong to oppress women, it is wrong to not help the poor, is it wrong to make people "serfs", it is wrong to discriminate based on race, on age, whatever.
And we are still fighting it today. People come around like Thomas Jefferson, Adolf Hitler, and many others, and say "I know who deserves respect, and who doesn't". For 6,000 years elitism has never been right.
The opposite of elitism, and the only other discourse is liberalism (the label liberalism and elitism don't mean anything, I just use them because I think they fit best, you can use whatever label). Liberals believe in two principles, #1 that we should expand the rights of those recognized as people, and #2 that we should expand who is a recognized person.
Liberalism simply says one thing, respect and love everyone equally. If you believe that you should respect and love everyone equally, that no one, no matter they believe, deserves to be disrespected, and treated poorly, than you are a liberal, and you are a Christian by definition. I shouldn't get too deep into the Christian piece, because so many pervert what Jesus did, but it makes it eaiser to illustrate how you are not supposed to judge. Christians (those who are a Christian based on deeds, not labels) don't judge, just like liberals don't judge. Christians confess their sins, and try to do the right thing. Liberals admit when they make a mistake, apologize, and try to do the right thing Liberals and Christians are one in the same.
So, we can conclude only one thing, I have to question whether you and the other twcers as a whole are Christians/Liberals, since they are one in the same. Because what you say, what the twc people are as a whole, what happens in many threads and discussions between non-members and member is elitism. Look at this thread, as one example, but there is many more on the the forum right now.
You see, we have these statements against me, of which elitists will claim are jokes. But you don't take serious arguements as jokes, unless you don't respect them. Obviously my arguement wasn't respected, which is fine if you don't believe everyone deserves respect in every scenario, and if you believe you can pick and choose who deserves respect, which is the definition of an elitist.
So let us find out if this arguement gets respect. Will it be deleted because think they can judge? Will acin make jokes about it? Will people start hating each other? I feel it now "oh some stupid religious guy is trying to tell us how to act..."
I'm not allowed to judge you, or be the judge, because liberals and Christians respect everyone. But at the same time, I have an obligation, as a Christian and a liberal, to question you actions, so, are you a liberal, or are you an elitist? Now this does not mean I think I'm perfect, and only I can judge, I'm simply stating no one can judge, lets all be nice all the time to everyone. Now God knows I don't do this, but I try, and I admit when I haven't done this, which is all Jesus asks.
So do you think you can judge, are you God? Because what I'm going to find out soon enough, is if I deserve respect, which is a reflection of whether or not you are an elitist. So, will I get the list, or will I be denied because of who I am?
erm... are you giving a lecture on me about God???????? I don't even know who you are! What is this crap about elitism and all that stuff? You Org people can't even read a post properly! Outrageous I say, Outrageous!
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-26-2012, 07:28
That's a rather odd statement, considering that over the last 8+ years the head admins of the site have all been Europeans.
Consider the Monastery. Many Amercians have made sure that only the Europeans agree with them. They may have been Europeans, but they follow in the interests of the Amercians on this Org.
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-26-2012, 07:31
I am having monastery flashbacks.
Because you never accepted anything of my opinion. So do have one.
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-26-2012, 07:33
I actually moved from TWC to the Org. :laugh4:
I like it here, it may not be as active, but the people are nicer and the debates are nice to watch, as well as the TR and GR.
The People here aren't nice!
Sasaki Kojiro
04-26-2012, 07:34
erm... are you giving a lecture on me about God???????? I don't even know who you are! What is this crap about elitism and all that stuff? You Org people can't even read a post properly! Outrageous I say, Outrageous!
So you are elitist. Let me guess, you're American? Typical
The people here are very nice in fact... they're giving you the benefit of the doubt and responding to your posts intelligently without flaming... if you'd tried this at the TWC, what do you think would have happened exactly...?
I on the other hand am not nice at all and tend not to beat about the bush, I like to call a spade a spade and in this case I think it's obvious from your posts what we're dealing with here...
http://www.dumpyourphoto.com/files3/88018/paNYq2v8G.jpg
https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y230/asleka/polar_bear_penguin.jpg
:laugh4: @ Saski
:shakehands: @ caravel.
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-26-2012, 12:06
The people here are very nice in fact... they're giving you the benefit of the doubt and responding to your posts intelligently without flaming... if you'd tried this at the TWC, what do you think would have happened exactly...?
I on the other hand am not nice at all and tend not to beat about the bush, I like to call a spade a spade and in this case I think it's obvious from your posts what we're dealing with here...
http://www.dumpyourphoto.com/files3/88018/paNYq2v8G.jpg
You know Caravel, They're not responding, they're diverting it. And you think that image will insult me? Hah! I am a Marshall, not some washed up fool like this one. Let me show you what you're dealing with.
5295
The People here aren't nice! They're racists full of hatred towards Japanese people! They're all Amercians...
So, you think your attitude in this thread has been "nice"?
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-26-2012, 12:55
So, you think your attitude in this thread has been "nice"?
Then what about Cavarel? Or this Saigo thinking me as an American and some ''elitist'' crap. You Mods are utterly useless. Utterly useless. All I said was my opinion. And yet people provoked me and diverted it. It seems everytime I want to say some opinion, it's rejected! Well thank you Crap world!
Peasant Phill
04-26-2012, 12:56
http://www.dumpyourphoto.com/files3/88018/paNYq2v8G.jpg
I'm sorry if I derail this thread:laugh4: but is that a picture from David the gnome?
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-26-2012, 12:56
So you are elitist. Let me guess, you're American? Typical
I'm not American. I'm proud to be French!
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-26-2012, 13:00
The people here are very nice in fact... they're giving you the benefit of the doubt and responding to your posts intelligently without flaming
Look. Did they talk about the Amercianzed version? Did they talk about the meantion of NTW? No, they all talked what they wanted and instead tried to divert me and get me kicked. Where the heck is my opinion highly intelligantly debated as you put it? They're not responding. You see, If I provide a opinion. ALL Org Members have a code: To prevent Marshall from saying anything as he is a troll and therefore must be bullied. He whines and moans like a pathetic baby, I swear as a Org Memeber,to prevent this.
Let me show you what you're dealing with.
You can't embed URLs in IMG tags like that.
//edit: fixed - well done, but can't get the full size images to load.
Askthepizzaguy
04-26-2012, 14:05
erm... are you giving a lecture on me about God???????? I don't even know who you are!
Can you not even read his post properly? He's Sasaki Kojiro. It even says so right above that jolly looking fellow who tells you which rule to remember.
What is this crap about elitism and all that stuff?
A deep, and profound question. What is?
To be, to come into being, to become....
What is crap, but the excrement of horses and pigs and donkeys and even people, but not necessarily in that order, and no preference given, unless you are a farmer?
When did it become? Through what process did the crap strain and squeeze into being? And was it necessarily made, as some religious people suggest, or did it come into being through a process of self-actualization?
As a non-elite myself, I struggle to comprehend the process of being and becoming. Being and becoming. It is beyond me. That is the primary reason why I cannot go to Total War Center, where I moderate a section. It's too foreign to me, and as an American, I have issues with foreigner. yet strangely, am also quite Hot Blooded (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c1m2BAg2Sc).
This entire debate is actually (or self-actually) giving me a fever of approximately one hundred and three degrees.
On an unrelated note, I want to discuss what you're doing after this thread. Just between you and me.
You Org people can't even read a post properly! Outrageous I say, Outrageous!
No, good sir, I am afraid I cannot. Particularly because I am a non-Elite.
I propose that you and I form a club dedicated to the exclusion and oppression of the Elites, regardless of whether or not it might actually be a pretty cool name for a band. If they have any records, I propose we burn them. (Do records burn, or are they more melty? If they are the latter, we might melt them as one would a grilled cheese sandwizard. [I don't like witches, they frighten me, even though the so-called popular culture has tried to make them more likeable, what with Sabrina the teenaged one being irresistibly tempting. How dare you, Melissa Joan Hart, I liked you better when you explained it all.] This is a rather long parenthetical statement, so I must truncate it)
Where was I? Yes, I was discussing the burning of elitist records. But I will require your assistance in reading said records before we burn them, por Favre.
Can you help me, and the rest of You Org people?
(Also, is You Org kind of like Sea Org? And is that sort of like Sea World? [so we don't bush and musithians!?!?!])
Askthepizzaguy
04-26-2012, 14:13
So you are elitist. Let me guess, you're American? Typical
I STRONGLY OBJECT TO YOU CALLING AMERICANS TYPICAL wait wait why is everything in all caps?
I sincerely apologize. I don't know why I did that, it makes it seem like I was shouting for absurd reasons. Don't I feel the fool.
DON'T I? ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Wait, why am I ordering you around like I'm the boss?
My goodness, I'm so ashamed. If I were capable of shame.
Askthepizzaguy
04-26-2012, 14:20
I'm not American. I'm proud to be French!
Ok, I'll bite.
"What are you doing in England?"
None of my business, right. Saw that one coming.
Pic unrelated.
https://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb225/askthepizzaguy/MafiaIMGS/Taunter.jpg
Can't we all just get along....the negative vibes are very distressing. :hippie:
I always like to think about the Org as a place similar to the Diogenes Club. Save for the fact that talking in the Frontroom isn't prohibited.
(Edit: Just for the record I like it this way. Who wants to be in a noisy crowded place where it's hard to remember the other patrons. Much more personal here)
The People here aren't nice! They're racists full of hatred towards Japanese people! They're all Amercians...
If there is one thing I can say with conviction, it is that people here aren't racist. There might perhaps be some amount of natural hesitation when someone realises that someone else is from some place far away, but no racism.
Please, post on topic again.
I'd like to hear input from as many members as possible; new members, senior members, regular members, oldtimers, people who just signed up 5 minutes ago; everybody. Be open. Share your thoughts and no idea is too crazy.
It is true that for a movie conest, there is a high requirement of camera/editing/music skills. Screenshot and story contests are easy in comparison. The current screenshot thread in the Shogun 2 forum has collected so many great pictures - maybe we can just pick a few dozens and let people vote on them! Then we can make a slide show of the winners completed with music and the contributor's ID.
While the number of participants may be limited, we should still attract a good number of spectators. If we provide links of enough submissions, we are gauranteed to have visitors. The snowball will rolll and the next contest will attract more participants.
Promotion can be done on member's level, so it does not become the ORG's aggressive advertisement strategy. We can ask members to spread the news if they happen to patronize another total war forum. I actually have done that for the current creative video contest.
It is true that for a movie conest, there is a high requirement of camera/editing/music skills. Screenshot and story contests are easy in comparison. The current screenshot thread in the Shogun 2 forum has collected so many great pictures - maybe we can just pick a few dozens and let people vote on them! Then we can make a slide show of the winners completed with music and the contributor's ID.
Excellent idea :2thumbsup:
While the number of participants may be limited, we should still attract a good number of spectators. If we provide links of enough submissions, we are gauranteed to have visitors. The snowball will rolll and the next contest will attract more participants.
Promotion can be done on member's level, so it does not become the ORG's aggressive advertisement strategy. We can ask members to spread the news if they happen to patronize another total war forum. I actually have done that for the current creative video contest.
:bow:
And thanks for trying to get this thread on the right track again :wink:
Vladimir
04-26-2012, 15:09
I am having monastery flashbacks.
I know, right. :laugh4:
I missed all the good stuff.
Times have changed however and the .org probably does need to bow to pressure and consider allowing custom avatars in the near future (custom signatures seem to be allowed - I personally don't see the difference).
caravel, not sure if this has been pointed out yet, not fully read thread, so I will say this now so I don't forget.
There is a custom avatar option, but it is an "opt in" system, which you access in your settings area. I personally don't use it, as I prefer my theme, but the option is there for users to simply do that, and when I enabled it to test it out, it seemed many of the regulars were using it themselves.
Just wanted to let you know incase you wasn't aware of it, so you are able to enjoy your custom avatars, I even have one up myself (even if I don't use it).
Tiaexz, I know of the custom avatars, but they're only visible to registered members who are logged in and have them enabled in their profile settings. If I'm honest I have mixed views on the custom avatars. I don't think for one moment that custom avatars=more members. In the long term though if allowing custom avatars makes the .org a bit more welcoming and a bit less "institutionalised" (for lack of a better word) in it's appearance to the public, then that's got to be a good thing.
I think the "horror" of custom avatars is that, with the portraits the .org appears uniform and neat. The worry is that with the regulation removed, there will be all kinds of monstrosities on display - in fact that's probably inevitable, but I think it's worth it if it gives members more freedom of expression and individuality and gives that impression to potential members.
The .org could do the opposite to what it's doing at the moment - give members the ability to "opt out" of the custom avatars, but display them (not the portaits) to guests by default. So to logged in members, the "classic .org" is still there untouched (I would probably use this mode).
That's all I can really say on the avatar thing (I've probably said it all before).
:bow:
Ah I see. There is a way around to show custom pictures.
(1) Upload a custom "Profile Picture".
(2) Go to settings and click off "show avatar" and click "on" for show profile picture.
The user will be able to see their custom profile picture (and everyone else's custom profile picture) instead of the avatars. But I guess for other users they will still see the more standardized avatars.
It would be nice if we combine the two into one (Profile picture = Avatar). People can choose to upload their own profile picture, or pick one from the existing choices that they like.
It would be nice if we combine the two into one (Profile picture = Avatar). People can choose to upload their own profile picture, or pick one from the existing choices that they like.
I would suggest restricting the image size to the same height as the existing portrait avatars, but allowing a bit more leeway horizontally. They're 50x74 - so 74x74 max might work. Width is not as critical as height, as profile details (HoF awards, location text, etc) still stretch the post bit horizontally. Just a suggestion.
:bow:
On topic, wiki's can generate a lot of traffic, and I believe that if the Org Wiki is improved and developed more people should start turning up.
For custom avatars, I have an idea of making them less of a visual hazard.
(1) Standard size. For example, it has to be 100 x 120 pixels, or whatever size the current avatars are having. The uploaded picture will be cropped (good) or stretched (not as good) to fit the standard size if they are not the right size.
AND
(2) Frames. All avatar pictures fit into a frame that is consistent with the ORG's theme. It might be possible to choose from a few pre-designed frames.
Not sure whether it is difficult to do technically.
I check this forum for EB , apart from that it seems pretty dead, maybe you could focus on EB ?
My two cents
Tavern is where most of the activity is, maybe focus on that...? There doesn't seem to have been any posts in the EB forum today?
Modding and offtopic always generates more "chatter", but not necessarily more content. Modding forums in particular have lots of testing, debugging and the thrashing out and submitting of ideas going on, posting of code and screens, etc. You can easily have a twenty+ page thread between two or three people. That's not to say a modding related thread is worth less (quite the opposite if you ask me), just that it inherently generates more chatter.
Personally I don't think the .org needs to focus on anything except Total War - everything else is a by product of that and will happen anyway.
The greatest contribution anyone can give to the Org is simply to post. The more people post, the more it encourages others to post. The less people post, the less incentive there is for others to post. Staff alone cannot sustain all the conversation, the members themselves need to help out. If anyone seriously wants to help the Org improve, you can easily do it by making an effort to write a post or two every day in a TW forum. With enough people posting over a long enough period of time, the forums will start to get more active.
Peasant Phill
04-27-2012, 11:54
On topic, wiki's can generate a lot of traffic, and I believe that if the Org Wiki is improved and developed more people should start turning up.
That's a good suggestion.
Any chance you want to help us with that?
That's a good suggestion.
Any chance you want to help us with that?
I really would like to, (since as such I'm a regular contributer at other gaming wikis) but the last TW game I played was M2TW-Kingdoms, and it's been over three years since I touched it.
The People here aren't nice!
Yes they are. I play mafia games here, and my style is pretty eccentric, and when I went over to another forum to play it, I was insulted and mocked by the community for the way I posted/played. Granted I was a bit abrasive, but I do not experience any of the hate I got over there here.
I really would like to, (since as such I'm a regular contributer at other gaming wikis) but the last TW game I played was M2TW-Kingdoms, and it's been over three years since I touched it.
I and probably many of the Throne Roomers could help you out with the wiki. What needs doing?
frogbeastegg
04-27-2012, 13:29
I can't locate the "rate thread" tool, so I guess senior member is a non-staff. (sob)
There are four links on my top right:
View First Unread, Thread Tools, Search Thread, Display.
I've been discussing this with our techies. Currently the built-in rating tool is limited to staff only, meaning content staff, moderators, and admins. We've been using it to mark threads which contain posts by CA staff members. We rate them with a modified 1 star rating and bingo, a little CA shield appears next to the topic name on the board listing. That's turned out to be an unexpected source of difficulty. If we open the system up in its current form, everyone will be able to rate topics as containing CA posts. Not good. If we turn off the CA rating and revert to the original 5 star series, we'll lose the ability to mark CA posts and we'll also end up with all existing CA posts marked as "Terrible!". Also not good! Locating and re-rating all of the threads would be ... problematic.
So currently we are looking at vbulletin hacks to see if there's a suitable one to introduce. That way we will be able to run two ratings systems side by side, one for the public and one for staff.
I would recommend that the "Thank" icon be increased so people can be thankful more frequently. :laugh4:
That one is unlikely to happen. If we made the icon bigger it wouldn't fit with the rest of the icons at the bottom of a post. We did try a few different 'thanks' mods and this was the one which received the most positive feedback amongst staff and patrons. It was felt that some of the other systems were too busy. If I had my way, the button would be in flashing lights with a sign saying, "Thank people who create useful content PLEASE! Give a little back in recognition of the time they spent!" :laugh4:
I do think it would be nice if the forum notified you when one of your posts gets thanked. Well, notified more clearly - there's a tiny category on your profile which counts thanks. The current hack doesn't allow for that.
I and probably many of the Throne Roomers could help you out with the wiki. What needs doing?
TBH I don't know where to begin. We can do what the TWC wiki has done, like simply pick stuff from the game and add it to the wiki. But that would just be redundant, and I always felt that the Org had more intellectuals than TWC, so maybe along with standard information about various aspects of the game Org wiki can focus on the real historical information too....?
:2cents:
There is a ton of useful info on the games in the various guides sections (always one of the Org's selling points). That information could be put into the wiki to give it original content that isn't so generic.
How about changing Thanks to red or something more obvious and perhaps a passionate icon? Or move it to the right so people notice it it while clicking reply.
Another way to encourage people to give thanks is to have a "thanks received" and "thanks given" counter for each member. This way we are all "encouraged" to give thanks in order not to appear ungrateful and anti-social. :rolleyes:
Did someone say "wiki"? Always looking for fresh bodies to throw at that! ~D
Just a little opinion on wiki:
Wiki would be awesome when it contains information that people constantly look for. I have lost count of the times when I google unit names and get linked to that .ru site.
I use the Org's MTW wiki constantly to reference stats and game options. My memory is not what it once was.
Peasant Phill
04-28-2012, 12:30
TBH I don't know where to begin. We can do what the TWC wiki has done, like simply pick stuff from the game and add it to the wiki. But that would just be redundant, and I always felt that the Org had more intellectuals than TWC, so maybe along with standard information about various aspects of the game Org wiki can focus on the real historical information too....?
:2cents:
That's a great idea but a gigantic amount of work. You can't just ad one paragraph of historical info and be done with it.
The idea of a wiki+ (patent on the name pending), however, is a good idea. Some links and recommended books on particulr subjects may already go a long way. Still a huge amount of work.
There is a ton of useful info on the games in the various guides sections (always one of the Org's selling points). That information could be put into the wiki to give it original content that isn't so generic.
That's a fantastic idea. Most wikis of other games are used as an index for guides. Or wiki could work the same way.
It may also inspire people to write guides themselves.
IS the wiki about the TW games, or does it have other parts to it?
That's a great idea but a gigantic amount of work. You can't just ad one paragraph of historical info and be done with it.
The idea of a wiki+ (patent on the name pending), however, is a good idea. Some links and recommended books on particulr subjects may already go a long way. Still a huge amount of work.
I agree it will be a lot of work, but the way I see it, most of what has to be put in is already available, ready-made. The unit information, faction information from the game can be just copied from TWC wiki and the strategy guides. What will take work will be adding the historical information.
What I had in mind was something like what they have at World of tanks wiki.
Check out these pages.
http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/T110E5
http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/BDR_G1B
Varied amount of historical information, added as available. Now this is just one idea off the top of my head......
Out of curiosity, when people say that traffic has reduced here, what exactly has it reduced to and what has it reduced from? I mean gaming forums normally do have a lull in activity between titles.
Most of the pages are TW-game specific, but there are a few pages on Mafia and other forum games. Every member also has a user home page they can put stuff in or try things out on.
When Shogun2 came out, some of us started putting together pages for it, as well as Med2, so there are a lot of pages created and categorized, they just need to be fleshed out and updated to the latest expansion. I'm not going to sugar-coat it, it's a lot of work since there are so many different units, tech paths, etc. to fill in and comment on.
If there are any EBers interested, a reference/guide wiki for EB would be awesome. :yes:
The org is in desperate need of members and the greatest source for such are the new TW games. The org is based around what TW was 8-10 years ago and it catered to people that played the then TW games - this is all water under the bridge; TW games are much different in their orientation and so is their clientelle. Org's rules and tradition are to me its greatest attraction but, that's very bad news for the forum overall. That my own humble modding effort for MTW was voted mod of the year here is embarassing to say the least. As was the voting participation for the new game.
Just-get-the-new-people-in. You don't need only veteran minded people that are more mature here. Froggy guides won't get you new people in. You need the younger lads and ladies that play newer TW as well and that may mean dropping 'quality standards' where those are to be lowered. Mature discussions are well and good, but they won't fill in the numbers - and without people that play the games there isn't anything to discuss, nor potential new migrators at other areas of the forum.
The problem is that the org had isolated itself for many years in order to preserve its character, to the point that new influx became so little that in the end its us and us. Unless one is from the 'old' generation its quite difficult to get the place's spirit and get into it - you'll get thrown at a corner or busted. A turning point is fast approaching and this year's awards prove that beyond any shadow of a doubt. More discussion about whether the forum should open up in case the regulars get upset will only bring the inevitable faster. As for becoming TWC copycats, its too late to worry about that - the org has already copied TWC policies/means and devices.
Just get moving on - there is less and less time every year.
Mouzafphaerre
04-28-2012, 22:25
Firstly a friendly slap (36 here ~;)) and congratulations to Maltz. :bow: Then...
I think the Org is a habit; a place of return in the wide oceans of the WWW (and thereout as well). It's a community. It's about friendships, memories, debates, respect and all that. Well, to me it is! Honestly, I threw away Shogun 2 after playing the tutorial for a few hours on the enthusiastic praise of Left Eye Nine, which I couldn't cross... The only TW game I occasionally go back to is EB and the last time I launched it was about 8 months ago... TotalWar series is no more for me but the ORG isn't just about TotalWar.
My 2 pennies...
I think the Org is a habit; a place of return in the wide oceans of the WWW (and thereout as well). It's a community. It's about friendships, memories, debates, respect and all that. Well, to me it is! Honestly, I threw away Shogun 2 after playing the tutorial for a few hours on the enthusiastic praise of Left Eye Nine, which I couldn't cross... The only TW game I occasionally go back to is EB and the last time I launched it was about 8 months ago... TotalWar series is no more for me but the ORG isn't just about TotalWar.
That's exactly what i'm talking about.. for me its more or less the same. You don't need people like us. You need people that think the newest TW game is the best thing after sliced bread. Its them you should be targeting, not us.
Interesting thread… In more ways then one… Anyways....
The greatest contribution anyone can give to the Org is simply to post. The more people post, the more it encourages others to post. The less people post, the less incentive there is for others to post.
Your assessment does have some merit - to a degree. The problem is that this view it is too simplistic and limited. It is not a matter of just posting, it also a matter of what we are posting as well. That “what” is more important then the actual post as such. If it were not so, we could all start spamming right now and everything would be just hunky-dory here… And even if some people here are very able spammers at times - the reality is that it is nowhere enough to create any circumstances that would somehow answer or solve the real questions here. In short it just fails to truly address the actual questions of this thread. Namely…“Why should I come here?”, “Why should I post?”, “What makes it worthwhile and attractive to do both - here?” All these questions are warranted to ask and the very reason this thread exist’s in the first place – as I understand it….
Staff alone cannot sustain all the conversation, the members themselves need to help out.
This is true, but yet again only to a limited degree… Now, in order for that to happen somehow - the people responsible of this site - must also be able to offer some sort of reason or motivation as for why the members should do so in the first place…. As long as that aspect is not truly resolved you will never have a real change of current circumstances - this regardless what anybody do or promise here.
If anyone seriously wants to help the Org improve, you can easily do it by making an effort to write a post or two every day in a TW forum.
This is also true, to a degree… Again it is too limited… Again it fails to truly and properly address the questions raised in post:1. “Why should I come here?”, “Why should I post?” “What makes it worthwhile and attractive to do both - here?” And this even if all people were to actually do the stuff outlined - the questions would still be essentially unanswered all the same.
Now, I agree with you, TinCow, upon that this place/site should indeed stick to the "TW-framwork" and I do believe there is a future for that somehow. However that framework needs to be defined - openly, properly and clearly - and once that is done - acted upon accordingly.
As for the rest above, I essentially interpret that stuff - rightly or wrongly - as some sort of argument pro "status quo" which is the last thing I want here. In the event that I am right about that, I can only say... Unless you guys (read ORG-brass) are not seriously willing to listen and honestly re-examine your current doctrines – the very doctrines that obviously have heavily influenced and shaped the supposedly unwanted realities that this board has today - then all this is basically pointless. If so, I fail to see why we should even bother to discuss this at all?
I mean, I (and possibly others) may very well have some few ideas and suggestions that could set this site apart from the rest, however all that is meaningless unless you guys don't really want things to change here, right? So, my question to ORG-brass is - are you serious in this discussion or not? Or is it just for show? Because discussing colors of thanks-buttons, avatars etc. etc. does not set this place apart, it does not truly attempt to address the actual questions essentially raised in post 1... “Why should I come here?”, “Why should I post?” “What makes it worthwhile and attractive to do both - here?”
So, I wonder... Are you - the ORG-brass - willing to actually listen here and prepared to change current doctrines, for real? Y/N?
(BTW, I am saying this nicely)
- A
I actually moved from TWC to the Org. :laugh4:
I like it here, it may not be as active, but the people are nicer and the debates are nice to watch, as well as the TR and GR. me too i moved here from the twc
to the .org because they have permantly exhiled me although i kinda deserved it now that i had a few chances to look over my past posts there
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
04-29-2012, 01:16
The Org is weak in such a way that it needs some expanding.
So, I wonder... Are you - the ORG-brass - willing to actually listen here and prepared to change current doctrines, for real? Y/N?
Absolutely. I'm not sure if people have really noticed, but the Org has changed more in the past year than it did in the previous five years. We want to keep this place alive, so if you've got actual plans that can be implemented we are eager to hear them.
So, I wonder... Are you - the ORG-brass - willing to actually listen here and prepared to change current doctrines, for real? Y/N?
Slightly unfair question. It assumes that the volunteers at the Org have twaddled their thumbs, refusing to do anything to make the experience better, when things are constantly being looked at and changes are being made, most notably, the Org "brass" itself.
There are some fantastic support facilities currently deployed and are being deployed for Mod creators, Vidya-Crowd, and other content creation aspects of the TW series which look quite exciting. There have been big shifts in policies, especially with a major staff change-over which has brought differences. When I first joined, the Backroom was a place where you had to be vetted and approved, there was even a "junior member" rank where you wasn't even allowed to edit your own posts and had to demonstrate yourself. Now, there are no such ranks, people can freely come here and freely contribute, the Org is a far less rigid and far more fluid.
Admittedly, some changes haven't moved as fast as I have liked them in some aspects, then there are other changes which people have proposed which I personally disagreed with. But to answer your question more directly, if you want to feel listened to on the Org, then this is currently the best time in it's history to make those valuable contributions and be heard.
Another way to encourage people to give thanks is to have a "thanks received" and "thanks given" counter for each member. This way we are all "encouraged" to give thanks in order not to appear ungrateful and anti-social. :rolleyes:
That is a bad concept and the "Give Thanks" system was deliberately implemented with such a function turned off. The volunteers who help manage the Org do post on other forums and do have experiences with their operations. All of them stated when they idea came up that they didn't want a counter visible.
Why?
Because this is not a popularity contest and no one wanted such a function which facilitated that aspect. These usually breed resentment or "gamey tactics" to artificially inflate (and on some forums, deflate) scores of users which makes the whole practical implementation feel tacky and meaningless.
However, people do like recognition for their work, and sometimes people read a post or topic and go "I think that post is rather good." but they don't want to feel they are spamming up the thread with their reply. In return, people who made such post might feel that no one appreciated it.
Conclusion:
We decided to do as a halfway system. Allow people to "Give Thanks" to a contribution without intruding and allow that other user to feel appreciated for their contribution. There is no real "gain" or "point scoring" involved, it is simply warm felt gratitude and appreciation.
edyzmedieval
04-29-2012, 11:52
Absolutely. I'm not sure if people have really noticed, but the Org has changed more in the past year than it did in the previous five years. We want to keep this place alive, so if you've got actual plans that can be implemented we are eager to hear them.
Definitely agreed here. Lots of changes have been implemented by TinCow and the group. :yes:
Rhyfelwyr
04-29-2012, 12:13
I think the first thing that needs adressing is the .org's blatant racism towards the Japanese.
Top-notch thread here btw, can't believe I missed this. I like how Sasaki Kojiro became "Saigo", echoes of Bartix there, nice.
johnhughthom
04-29-2012, 14:27
Definitely agreed here. Lots of changes have been implemented by TinCow and the group. :yes:
Seconded. I have been a member here for nearly five years, and lurked a good three or four before actually signing up, the past year or so has easily been the most productive in terms of staff efforts to improve the org. If I had an idea, I would certainly feel comfortable bringing it forward, and confident it would be assessed fairly by the staff.
Absolutely. I'm not sure if people have really noticed, but the Org has changed more in the past year than it did in the previous five years. We want to keep this place alive, so if you've got actual plans that can be implemented we are eager to hear them.
Ok then... I'll try to write it down somehow...
It assumes that the volunteers at the Org have twaddled their thumbs, refusing to do anything to make the experience better, when things are constantly being looked at and changes are being made, most notably, the Org "brass" itself.
Not necessarily, I think it is a matter of applied perspective. However at this point, we do have bigger fish to worry about then that (I will not deny you that attempts to change somehow has indeed been made - as outlined - and at least in some limited regards I certainly do too believe it is for the better). What truly matters here is that I (and all others) have had a straight answer, both from you and TinCow - loud and clear. Now, I'll act accordingly and somehow post up some ideas for you guys to ponder upon and I will discuss them with you - once I have something "to bring to the table" so to speak.
There are some fantastic support facilities currently deployed and are being deployed for Mod creators,
Such as? I honestly don't have a clue what that exactly means... This could be interesting...
... Vidya-Crowd ...
Help me out here because I don't even have a clue what that means? I can only do wild guesses here. Sorry...
, and other content creation aspects of the TW series which look quite exciting.
Such as? (I'm honestly asking)
Anyways, I'll try to write some stuff down somehow...
- A
Such as? I honestly don't have a clue what that exactly means... This could be interesting...
I am unfortunately not the best person to go into details as I have been merely "Looking over the shoulder" so to speak. But I believe we are assembling effectively a "Modders Toolbox" of sorts, such as offering File Sharing services. frogbeastegg is person who should probably speak about this.
Help me out here because I don't even have a clue what that means? I can only do wild guesses here. Sorry...
I might be using the term incorrectly, but I basically it is Video-Game-Videos. This might be replays, streaming, or even videos about games. Example of where to access this on the forum is here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/media.php
Such as? (I'm honestly asking)
Have to tie that into the answer of the first question.
But as a general answer, feel free to bring forward suggestions, from my limited experience behind the scenes (I haven't been a volunteer team member myself that long), if a good idea comes up and it is feasible to implement, then it will most likely occur.
Conclusion:
We decided to do as a halfway system. Allow people to "Give Thanks" to a contribution without intruding and allow that other user to feel appreciated for their contribution. There is no real "gain" or "point scoring" involved, it is simply warm felt gratitude and appreciation.
Actually I did not realize there is even a "thank" to click on - the current design is not very obvious for users.
I understand and respect the wish to keep the ORG mature and well-intended. This is why I am still posting and sharing things I find... but as a contributor, we naturally want our works read by as many as possible, and receive appreciations and constructive criticisms from readers.
If the contributors find that their work does not get many counts or thanks, and there is little hope for the situation to improve, they will naturally migrate. Some time ago I wondered whether I should post in the TWC this time, but then I realized there are still many good people in the ORG and I can simply go advertise things in other forums.
There is a saying "the clearest water has no fish". It is the most precious thing to stick with our judgment and principles, but we have to use simple languages in order to get our words spread around. A simple langauge for the forum is that we want to find some ways to keep the contributors. Sainty contributors who require no thanks or acknowledgement only come once every century.
@Axalon (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=30580):
Please, let the ideas come, it's good to have food for thought. I think I'll bundle some of the ideas from this thread and put up polls about it. Don't hold back on ideas, even if you think they'll be "revolutionary" or a complete different style than the .Org style. In the end, we (and with "we" I mean all of us, all members), need to decide on our direction: keep everything as it is with the risk of this place eventually simply fading away or change some things drastically, which may mean (no guarantees, there never are) more new blood, but also losing a bit of our current identity (you can't have everything).
I'd like to hear input from as many members as possible; new members, senior members, regular members, oldtimers, people who just signed up 5 minutes ago; everybody. Be open. Share your thoughts and no idea is too crazy.
So yeah, feel free to post your thoughts. Small things, major changes, crazy stuff, it doesn't matter, I want to hear it. I want to hear the community where both you and I are part of.
The org is in desperate need of members and the greatest source for such are the new TW games. The org is based around what TW was 8-10 years ago and it catered to people that played the then TW games - this is all water under the bridge; TW games are much different in their orientation and so is their clientelle. Org's rules and tradition are to me its greatest attraction but, that's very bad news for the forum overall. That my own humble modding effort for MTW was voted mod of the year here is embarassing to say the least. As was the voting participation for the new game.
Just-get-the-new-people-in. You don't need only veteran minded people that are more mature here. Froggy guides won't get you new people in. You need the younger lads and ladies that play newer TW as well and that may mean dropping 'quality standards' where those are to be lowered. Mature discussions are well and good, but they won't fill in the numbers - and without people that play the games there isn't anything to discuss, nor potential new migrators at other areas of the forum.
The problem is that the org had isolated itself for many years in order to preserve its character, to the point that new influx became so little that in the end its us and us. Unless one is from the 'old' generation its quite difficult to get the place's spirit and get into it - you'll get thrown at a corner or busted. A turning point is fast approaching and this year's awards prove that beyond any shadow of a doubt. More discussion about whether the forum should open up in case the regulars get upset will only bring the inevitable faster. As for becoming TWC copycats, its too late to worry about that - the org has already copied TWC policies/means and devices.
Just get moving on - there is less and less time every year.
:bow:
just so you know guys i have made an alternate logo! 5357 hope you like it
just so you know guys i have made an alternate logo! 5357 hope you like it
I really like the writings of Total War. Is it possible to make Org a similar style?
And maybe we can rearrange the two elements a bit.
Ops. repeated reply - needs to figure out how to delete...
Marshall Louis-Nicolas Davout
05-01-2012, 07:33
Is there a way to cancel your account? That would be really nice as for some members who are leaving, I'm not sure which way to do it.
Is there a way to cancel your account? That would be really nice as for some members who are leaving, I'm not sure which way to do it.
Yes, stop posting.
Yes, stop posting.
Most of us are mere mortals and do not have TinCow's iron will and self-control.
Is there a way to cancel your account? That would be really nice as for some members who are leaving, I'm not sure which way to do it.
We have a seperate usergroup who want their account to be suspended on a voluntary basis. Just pm one of the Forum Admins and we'll put your account in that group. Whenever you'd like to use your account again, you can contact one of the FA's and we'll put it back in the group it was in before the voluntary suspension.
:bow:
frogbeastegg
05-02-2012, 12:30
How about changing Thanks to red or something more obvious and perhaps a passionate icon? Or move it to the right so people notice it it while clicking reply.
We'll take another look at the system, see what we can do. I agree that the current system is not perfect.
Another way to encourage people to give thanks is to have a "thanks received" and "thanks given" counter for each member.
We tried that on one of our test versions. A lot of people complained because they felt it was too close to a reputation system.
Sainty contributors who require no thanks or acknowledgement only come once every century.
Precisely. One simple "Thank you!" can mean a lot - there's a reason why it's considered a vital part of polite conversation out in the real world. Too often people's efforts go unrecognised, people don't take the time to post some thanks. The button system was supposed to help counter this by making it possible for people to show appreciation without feeling like spammers.
I am unfortunately not the best person to go into details as I have been merely "Looking over the shoulder" so to speak. But I believe we are assembling effectively a "Modders Toolbox" of sorts, such as offering File Sharing services. frogbeastegg is person who should probably speak about this.
That one died a slow death due to lack of interest amongst those we hoped would use it.
Vladimir
05-02-2012, 13:16
Is there a way to cancel your account? That would be really nice as for some members who are leaving, I'm not sure which way to do it.
What? You already requested to be banned once and now you're back. We need oddballs to keep this place interesting.
One of us. One of us. :stare:
frogbeastegg
05-02-2012, 15:13
As you will hopefully have noticed, the thanks button has changed colour. It's now a dark red with a red thumbs up icon. If you can't see the change you may need to do a forced refresh with your browser. Feedback would be appreciated.
We can continue to tweak as necessary, and this version is a quick tester change to see if it's helpful. Colour is much easier to change than button position, although both are possible. We'd like the button to be more noticeable, without becoming so dominant that it becomes distracting when reading.
I see the colour has changed, but in all honesty, it doesn't make the button more noticeable to me :shrug:
Perhaps a redder red (does that make sense?).
Askthepizzaguy
05-02-2012, 22:32
It would have to be a particularly bright red to be eye-catching, and then perhaps too much so.
I'd kind of prefer a cooler color like green, which is a common color for a thumbs up button. See how that looks, maybe?
I agree with Pizza here: like this it gives a negative response feeling...
It is now lime green. Too bright?
Mouzafphaerre
05-03-2012, 00:28
It is now lime green. Too bright?
All right if you ask me.
Askthepizzaguy
05-03-2012, 00:36
I just noticed that you guys are probably seeing a greener button than I am.
I always use the indisputably best skin, which is "The Guild". :wink: On the more modern skins, the button is green. On The Guild and STW, etc, the button is uh, grey.
The button looks awesome on the other skins, but it's not enough for me to break up with my beloved.
Sorry about that. Should be fixed now on all skins.
Perfect now: noticeable, yet not distracting nor imparing reading :2thumbsup:
Askthepizzaguy
05-03-2012, 01:19
That looks absolutely perfect now. Thank you, TinCow.
Really handsome looking button, not distracting and also not hidden.
Cute Wolf
05-03-2012, 01:27
honestly, and to be very blunt, some of things that can make you get infracted by overly leftist moderators here are perfectly fine on TWC, for example is name calling some of those abominable lewd behaviours
and ORG is the only place you can get infracted by just being "unfriendly" to certain idiot member.... ckckck
Askthepizzaguy
05-03-2012, 01:57
Well, honestly, I don't really want to be part of a forum that specializes in lewd name calling, for either political or apolitical reasons. I like how the moderators keep the backroom relatively chilled out, and the rest of the .org calm and polite. I stay away from TWC's off-topic sections because of all the deadlocked partisan shouting matches. I also prefer a thread I can engage in a normal conversation in, with familiar faces... more of a corner cafe, rather than the floor of a political convention.
I prefer it how it is now, I wouldn't want the tone to become less friendly, the debates less civil, or the moderation more sloppy.
I always thought that the political viewpoints represented in the backroom were pretty diverse. We just don't really allow things to sink to the Michael Savage level of discourse, and I thank the administrators and moderator team for that every single day. There's a place in this world for that kind of stuff, and it's a place where people have no standards and nothing in particular worth discussing.
a completely inoffensive name
05-03-2012, 09:36
This forum has been a part of my life for 25% of the total number of years I have been in existence. I feel like I should do more, but I already post a lot of stupid stuff on here everyday. I don't know what else I could do.
Maybe I should do another reading contest, but turnout for the last one wasn't that great. No one even guessed the right number until I practically gave it away.
honestly, and to be very blunt, some of things that can make you get infracted by overly leftist moderators here are perfectly fine on TWC, for example is name calling some of those abominable lewd behaviours
We do not and will not condone bullying at the Org, and name-calling is a form of that. Personal attacks are not appropriate, regardless of your opinions/feelings of that person; if you don't like them, there's an Ignore feature.
I am willing to embrace a great deal of change if the community wants it (be it forum appearance/structure, content, staff behaviour/rules, whatever), but bullying is one thing I truly stand against and won't budge over.
and ORG is the only place you can get infracted by just being "unfriendly" to certain idiot member.... ckckck
I'm more than willing to discuss these infractions with you at your discretion. :bow:
I agree with Secura that we can't allow bullying. That said, perhaps Cute Wolf's point has merit. It's not always easy to draw the line; moderating has never been exact science. Is two members getting a bit "rougher" against each other immediately a problem? Should we wait longer before stepping in, in the hopes members will simply work it out for themselves. I've seen it happening on a few occasions; stumbling upon a thread with a post that made me cringe, but no moderator intervention. Then a page further, you see members moderated themselves and get along just fine again. Such threads warm my heart.
What about off topic posts and frivolous spam? Should staff act against that or should we allow more "forum chemistry". After all, the idea of this place is to have fun and threads full of good old fashioned completely nonsensic spam posts are usually the most funny threads. I can understand there's a difference between the Guides fora, where people look for specific information and where spam is really annoying, but maybe we should be more relaxed in other areas? Just me spouting random thoughts here. How does the membership feel? As I said, we need to be open for everything. Can I hear some thoughts on this, please?
a completely inoffensive name
05-03-2012, 11:36
I agree with Secura that we can't allow bullying. That said, perhaps Cute Wolf's point has merit. It's not always easy to draw the line; moderating has never been exact science. Is two members getting a bit "rougher" against each other immediately a problem? Should we wait longer before stepping in, in the hopes members will simply work it out for themselves. I've seen it happening on a few occasions; stumbling upon a thread with a post that made me cringe, but no moderator intervention. Then a page further, you see members moderated themselves and get along just fine again. Such threads warm my heart.
What about off topic posts and frivolous spam? Should staff act against that or should we allow more "forum chemistry". After all, the idea of this place is to have fun and threads full of good old fashioned completely nonsensic spam posts are usually the most funny threads. I can understand there's a difference between the Guides fora, where people look for specific information and where spam is really annoying, but maybe we should be more relaxed in other areas? Just me spouting random thoughts here. How does the membership feel? As I said, we need to be open for everything. Can I hear some thoughts on this, please?
I think the moderators should just admit that the most exhilarating and interesting period was when me and the rest of the tavern was being super active and spammy. There was something happening every day.
johnhughthom
05-03-2012, 22:50
I think the moderators should just admit that the most exhilarating and interesting period was when me and the rest of the tavern was being super active and spammy. There was something happening every day.
Or you could admit that just because you found it interesting and exhilarating does not mean others did. I found the EB Tavern, and the associated posting from the time, pretty juvenile and embarrassing to be honest.
I'll post my actual ideas later on... In the mean time, some comments of my own to various stuff...
The org is based around what TW was 8-10 years ago and it catered to people that played the then TW games
In short, I think this is BS... A quick look at the ORG-news coverage over past 6 months and I got all I need to dismiss that statement all the way back to the stone age.
That my own humble modding effort for MTW was voted mod of the year here is embarassing to say the least.
You said it, but I agree. It is embarrassing, and that in more ways then one. It can't get much worse then as is. Then again you did not protest at all, you were just fine with all that, or so you said at the time. The only thing you protested against was the fact that I had the "indecency" to protest against the whole damn thing and refused to participate because of general principles. Bunching up TW-engines, the total apathy to scale, traits and circumstances, general practice etc. etc. Nope, you were clearly fine with all that, thus you don't get to also say that it was embarrassing as well. Your actions and words here strikes me as that of an unbothered hypocrite. That certainly deserves to be pointed out. And this is not the first time either, now is it? That's why I have such a hard time condoning it, like others do. At least I will greet it with scorn.
You don't need only veteran minded people that are more mature here. Froggy guides won't get you new people in. You need the younger lads and ladies that play newer TW as well
I certainly agree with that. This place needs all people interested in TW it can get, as it is, and this regardless the game. The game, age and gender are actually irrelevant, the interest in TW is not. If that happens to be RTW or MTW1, so be it. Same thing applies to ETW and STW2.
- and without people that play the games there isn't anything to discuss,
True... Without people that post either - there is nothing to discuss in the first place. People must post in order for a discussion to be possible at all... I know this first hand.
As for becoming TWC copycats, its too late to worry about that - the org has already copied TWC policies/means and devices.
I think there is some truth to that... Then again, does it matter?
...
Precisely. One simple "Thank you!" can mean a lot - there's a reason why it's considered a vital part of polite conversation out in the real world. Too often people's efforts go unrecognised, people don't take the time to post some thanks. The button system was supposed to help counter this by making it possible for people to show appreciation without feeling like spammers.
I can certainly see your point and I agree totally, it could be a very useful and effective tool. Assuming that it will not be overused and lose all meaning... Like the stars on threads.... It has ended up in 5 stars or no stars and usually completely arbitrary, or so I believe. As I understand it, this star-stuff is strictly a staff-thing/option, so I guess you guys are to blame for all that.... :)
It's hardly a disaster somehow, but I do think that the use and practice of the stars can be improved somehow. As it is now it has basically lost all meaning, it's fluff, to me at least. I wonder, is it even possible to remove the stars completely from a thread? I would actually be intersted in getting a solid answer on that.
That one died a slow death due to lack of interest amongst those we hoped would use it.
So, put it in stasis then... Things might just change some day...
- A
And another post...
It's not always easy to draw the line; moderating has never been exact science.
True.... However that does not mean that it can't be, or at least should strive for being more "exacter", now does it? I think it should at least try to be... Right or wrong there is much at the ORG that strikes me as arbitrary and I can't say that I think that is a good thing on general terms. I would say that it is a bad thing actually... This goes for moderation as well. I think the TWC, which far from perfect somehow, has managed that problem better on general terms. And, at least they have it more specified - this openly and publicly - and that strikes me as a much better solution. The ORG could very well learn a thing or two by that, or so I believe. I am open to hear out the arguments against it - if there actually are any?
What about off topic posts and frivolous spam? Should staff act against that or should we allow more "forum chemistry". After all, the idea of this place is to have fun and threads full of good old fashioned completely nonsensic spam posts are usually the most funny threads. I can understand there's a difference between the Guides fora, where people look for specific information and where spam is really annoying, but maybe we should be more relaxed in other areas? Just me spouting random thoughts here. How does the membership feel? As I said, we need to be open for everything. Can I hear some thoughts on this, please?
Personally, I say kill it and do us all a favour, at least in the TW-sections. To me it is just annoying and gets in the way. Prejudice or not, I think the ORG is too lax on this stuff in general and could certainly try to change (for the better). The TWC seems to have gotten worse as well I think, that's the impression I get anyhow...
If it addresses the topic somehow by all means go right ahead and joke - but - address the topic at hand and most of this kind of crap fails to do that and that's why it is extra annoying. Maybe I have been just unlucky in my experiences on these boards. I'll say this much anyways - it is usually the same members that does it - over and over again and usually in others threads. Personally, I think that can so easily become arrogant and rude, showing disrespect for a topic that somebody else is interested in, enough to start a thread about it. If I want to know about matter X, I don't want to go thru all that crap and I find it hard to believe that I am the only one that thinks that.
Our currency here is information, not jokes and spam. Or so I would like to believe. At least I come here for information or to provide information and so, I am very fond of sticking to the topic in general. I have also noticed that some people have problems determining what is actually relevant or even lack the capacity to recognize that the question has already been answered by somebody else. What do they do? They answer it all over again - as if the previous answer never existed... That just rude and annoying... As if the answer only get valid when they have delivered it.... I have a very hard time accepting that and quite frankly I have little regard for it. Again, certain members excel in that routine as well - and they have earned my thorough dislike because of it. If you got nothing to add - then don't post.
If people spam and joke in the tavern, I have no problem with that as that whole area is essentially about spam and nonsense anyways (that's my experience at least). In a TW-thread that also deals with TW somehow (not even that is a certainty here), it's just annoying and topicality should be enforced because that might actually be something used for future reference some day. Because of that, I do advocate the enforcement of topicality and just delete the personal chatter. I simply don't care about some internal jokes or whatever crap people cook up. This is a public space, not a personal one and some people seem to have forgotten that. In some cases it seems like they are just fishing for attention somehow - that's just annoying. Especially since they are usually not worthy of any attention to begin with, for me anyways...
Maybe I am just overly harsh and Spartan like - it is possible. Anyways, I'm sure there are people that will disagree with all this. Well, just speaking my mind here as well.
- A
Cute Wolf
05-04-2012, 01:24
We do not and will not condone bullying at the Org, and name-calling is a form of that. Personal attacks are not appropriate, regardless of your opinions/feelings of that person; if you don't like them, there's an Ignore feature.
I am willing to embrace a great deal of change if the community wants it (be it forum appearance/structure, content, staff behaviour/rules, whatever), but bullying is one thing I truly stand against and won't budge over.
I'm more than willing to discuss these infractions with you at your discretion. :bow:
It's not bullying, it's only matter on how to express disgusts, and it's actually allready a mild form, it's barely an insult.
and about the problem with Pharoah, he's perma-banned on TWC because the moderators and admins there are also modders and they know how disruptive and annoying Pharoah is, while here, you decide to cradle and put him in soft spot... *@)**#@
a completely inoffensive name
05-04-2012, 04:45
Or you could admit that just because you found it interesting and exhilarating does not mean others did. I found the EB Tavern, and the associated posting from the time, pretty juvenile and embarrassing to be honest.
Or you could admit that you can't recognize facetiousness.
It's not bullying, it's only matter on how to express disgusts, and it's actually allready a mild form, it's barely an insult.
and about the problem with Pharoah, he's perma-banned on TWC because the moderators and admins there are also modders and they know how disruptive and annoying Pharoah is, while here, you decide to cradle and put him in soft spot... *@)**#@
Is Pharoah a troll? Is he trying to be disruptive? I've never gotten that vibe from him, I think he just wants to be a modder. It would be a lot more constructive to show him the errors of his ways and to help him become a better modder than to put him down. The TWC mods sound like jackasses to me.
Askthepizzaguy
05-04-2012, 08:34
Or you could admit that you can't recognize facetiousness.
Or maybe YOU could admit that his admission would not be admissible! :stare:
Or you could admit that you can't recognize facetiousness.
You're being lazy ~;p
I value your opinion ACIN. I'm interested to hear your opinion about the rules, current style of moderation and other aspects and what you think should change. I want your input and ideas, so stop being lazy by limiting yourself to one liners that come down to complaining about the past. Let your brains work and spout brilliant ideas :whip:
Axalon, I appreciate your bluntness, I'll address your post later on, bit limited on time right now.
Cute Wolf
05-04-2012, 09:48
Is Pharoah a troll? Is he trying to be disruptive? I've never gotten that vibe from him, I think he just wants to be a modder. It would be a lot more constructive to show him the errors of his ways and to help him become a better modder than to put him down. The TWC mods sound like jackasses to me.
seriously, VMs and PMs Spam to a modder who rejects "his plea for helping him to make his own mod" , initially we reply politely and some, including I, did put some constructive supports and stuffs, but after "PWEASE HELP ME MAKING BIRTH OF CIVILIZATION TW, WITH EGYPT, ASSUR, BABOLON, I KNOW YOU HAVE TIME TO HEWP ME!" "PWEASE HELP MEH MAKING BWA BWA BWA - TOTAL WAR" spam in your inbox and VMs (ask TWC Admins if you do not believe this, and this not only happened to me but to a very large numbers of modders) , making new threads on WIP sections and spam-posting other's threads... he's obviously a troll...
and when I found him also spam my ORG PMs and VMs I only ask him to go out of my profile, (albeit with harsh words, but the very same response on TWC didn't yield anything, but Secura infract me on the basis of unfriendliness)...
well I admit I go over the usual stuffs here at the org, one time asking him to commit suicide... but... nah, this time I don't get infracted of it, but I found it hillarious...
Hi Cute Wolf/Spike,
If a member harasses you with visitor messages, then you can report the unwanted messages. It is also possible to put a certain user on your ignore list. You also have the possiblity to delete visitor messages made by other patrons on your profile page. As a last resort, you can also switch VM's off in your profile.
Posting links to sites with explanations on how to commit suicide on another patrons' profile, however, goes a step too far.
Please, don't.
Thanks in advance,
Andres.
It's not bullying, it's only matter on how to express disgusts, and it's actually allready a mild form, it's barely an insult.
Telling someone they have no shame is one thing, sending them links on committing suicide is another. I allowed the former to slide, it was clearly just a statement of your frustration, but the latter quantifies as bullying, and a pretty extreme form at that; we've seen in the past that this type of comment can be taken very seriously by the victim (the Frontroom has had issues with this in the past), and thus they're taken very seriously by staff if we see such things.
Ultimately, there's no need to express your disdain for Pharoah, it has been suggested to you on multiple occasions that you can use the Ignore function at any time. As you have chosen not to follow this advice, one can only assume that you either enjoy the drama of your altercations (if you can call it an altercation, Pharoah doesn't really reciprocate) or you simply enjoy insulting a child. Either of these things is detrimental to your character and casts you in a bad light, as you're a pretty likeable guy otherwise.
and about the problem with Pharoah, he's perma-banned on TWC because the moderators and admins there are also modders and they know how disruptive and annoying Pharoah is, while here, you decide to cradle and put him in soft spot... *@)**#@
For the record, Pharoah was given the exact same treatment as you; had you reported him for harassing you, it would have been dealt with as severely as if you had continued insulting him, as outlined in my PMs to you both.
well I admit I go over the usual stuffs here at the org, one time asking him to commit suicide... but... nah, this time I don't get infracted of it, but I found it hillarious...
We don't usually moderate Visitor Messages in the manner we would normal things, and the message in question was already deleted by Pharoah by the time Andres spotted it, hence the simple PM rather than anything further.
It would be a lot more constructive to show him the errors of his ways and to help him become a better modder than to put him down.
This is a very good point, I think Pharoah could really benefit from a mentor of sorts and it is something I have suggested before but ultimately my words fell on deaf ears. I'm glad he's integrating himself with the modding community. :3
Cute Wolf, allthough I'm open to all suggestions, including loosening the rules and being more relaxed, some things will never be ok around here. Directing another member to "help sites" on how to commit suicide is one of those things. It's not because maybe the balance has shifted too much to one side of the spectrum that we're now going to shift the balance towards the other extreme, i.e. everything goes.
Cute Wolf
05-04-2012, 10:21
haha, sorry then... never tought that advising member to suicide is counted as extreme form of bullying....
darn, shouldn't listen what AP said then...
Kagemusha
05-04-2012, 15:36
So what do people actually want from Org? Nothing? Something? Is TWC and COM already delivering everything that people interested in TW want?
As an ex staffer.I can say that before and ever since Tosa passed away, great pains have been taken to make the forum more accessible and creating more content for it. Still staff cant do it all. Please people, state what is putting you on or off about the Org. This whole forum is created just for you, the forum members and your input is what can change the forum into your desired direction, but only if you voice that input.
Please speak out.:bow:
a completely inoffensive name
05-04-2012, 17:37
I am on my phone, but I plan on coming by later tonight to write up a big thing of my thoughts regarding the future of the org.
In the meantime I will just give another lazy one liner. If Cute Wolf is in anyway representative of the demographics for Total War nowadays, then it is becoming increasingly obvious why we are in the spot we are in.
I mean, christ, was I stupid here, but even I didn't just shrug off asking someone to kill themselves.
Kagemusha
05-04-2012, 20:43
I am on my phone, but I plan on coming by later tonight to write up a big thing of my thoughts regarding the future of the org.
In the meantime I will just give another lazy one liner. If Cute Wolf is in anyway representative of the demographics for Total War nowadays, then it is becoming increasingly obvious why we are in the spot we are in.
I mean, christ, was I stupid here, but even I didn't just shrug off asking someone to kill themselves.
Dont be an arse! And i know this will give me my first ever warning point during my time here.
edyzmedieval
05-04-2012, 21:33
I do kinda miss the old spam threads, they were quite funny and only had friendly banter.
I do kinda miss the old spam threads, they were quite funny and only had friendly banter.
:yes:
GeneralHankerchief
05-04-2012, 22:25
I just wanted to let the membership know that staff is having a serious discussion concurrently with this one about how to reform the .Org, and all of your ideas are being weighed. There is an extremely good chance of there being changes, so please speak up if you have any ideas. :yes:
johnhughthom
05-04-2012, 23:19
Or you could admit that you can't recognize facetiousness.
Indeed, I have never made a facetious post myself. I wouldn't recognise a facetious post if it came up to me and called me an offensive name.
a completely inoffensive name
05-04-2012, 23:22
I think the real problem that the ORG has is that we don't really advertise what actually makes this place a fun forum. Which is the community and not at all the discussion about TotalWar games. It's been very evident that if you can group the residents of the ORG into two groups it's 1. People here for EB. 2. People who checked this place out a bit, but no longer play TW games.
I think we need to seriously re-evaluate what this entire forum and the website is going to be about if we want this place to have a little more action occurring here. I see everyone talking about how TWC operates and how they managed to secure all the traffic following the series, but one thing I have not heard people talk is about is how the ORG, which once had all the Clans and strategy talk happening around here, managed to lose it all to the TWC in the first place. Nor do I see people really want to take on TWC to take back the spot as #1 place for everything TotalWar (the reason why is evident as I will say below). So obviously nothing is going to happen regarding the traffic here because none of the changes have any direction to them, in terms of bestowing a defining characteristic to the org. What we have been doing is just general accessibility, and convenience updates that make using the site more functional but have not made the site more appealing.
I can take a look at the general forum page right now and see that all of the sections regarding TotalWar with the exception of the EB forums are for all intents and purposes, dead. What the kindle in this place is, and has been since 2009-2010, is the Tavern. We should honestly be focusing on cultivating our mafia community and making the front/backrooms out as a nice place for people to have fun, passionate, light hearted but not 4chan-ish topics/discussions.
In all honestly, I am just going to say this and it will come off as elitist, but whatever. As the TotalWar series went hardcore popular after Rome we got a major dumbing down of the average person who enjoys the series in terms of age, and if my experience at TWC tells me anything...in IQ as well. The way that you guys want this place to conduct itself is not conductive to most people who want to communicate at the level of xbox live kiddies. When I post in the political sections in TWC I get 4 right wingers and 4 left wingers shouting ad-hominems and non-sequitors while talking in the most dickish way possible. And when I say dickish, I know I seem like the kettle calling the pot cast iron here, but these people are dicks.
In all honesty, I think the era of mature men and women who want a friendly and more importantly structured discussion about TotalWar is long gone from here. There are just too many people who are at that teenage level of discussion that I was just at until recently. I mean I am looking at TWC's section for Bethesda games, and it all looks like the comments section for a Kotaku article.
So this is my completely untenable idea. Either we find a way to beat TWC at their own game, or this whole place will have be retweaked. If you guys don't like that because obviously the place is called "TotalWar.org" then that is understandable. One thing that Lemur told me when I got my first infraction here is that the moderators and community here have higher expectations in regards to conduct, if you want 4chan go to 4chan. However, one thing I seem to find every other website I go to is that most people just don't want to conform to a higher standard. I've seen it with reddit in many, many wonderful communities/subreddits where try-hards want to be be a part of something nice and ruin it for everyone because they never understood what the community was about in the first place.
I'm being a bitter old man right now and I am going to download what remaining updates the Fallout New Vegas modding community has provided for my mods before it had died earlier this year.
Alexander the Pretty Good
05-04-2012, 23:53
>Either we find a way to beat TWC at their own game, or this whole place will have be retweaked.
Why? What's wrong with what we have? There's decent activity in the Shogun 2 forums because CA finally made a game that was halfway decent. The off-topic forums are also fine, or at least the Arena is.
So what do people actually want from Org? Nothing? Something?
You can ask that to anyone about anything and you'd hardly get any answer...
We humans know how to complain, sometimes by extreme circumstances we come up with solutions :P
But tbh, I lurked in this forum for 2 years iirc, just the EB sub-fora, registered and loved it eversince...
a completely inoffensive name
05-05-2012, 00:34
Why? What's wrong with what we have?
Read my post again. We are in a state of limbo here. Our strengths are not related to TotalWar and only a small portion of members come here for TotalWar. What we advertise ourselves as is not what we actually are sticking around here for.
There's decent activity in the Shogun 2 forums because CA finally made a game that was halfway decent. The off-topic forums are also fine, or at least the Arena is.
You are just making my point for me. I'm glad that you are satisfied with the status of the org as "meh".
Alexander the Pretty Good
05-05-2012, 03:36
Better than you social engineers breaking what we have.
a completely inoffensive name
05-05-2012, 04:16
Better than you social engineers breaking what we have.Bringing in such charged political terminology speaks volumes on your mental capacity to interpret and perhaps even distinguish reality.
Alexander the Pretty Good
05-05-2012, 05:07
Of course, I'm simply delusional. It is an impossibility that remaking the Org in your image vision would have any negative consequences whatsoever. I'd say something like I'll fall on my sword but that sounds like Total War, and we can't have that anymore.
a completely inoffensive name
05-05-2012, 05:23
Of course, I'm simply delusional. It is an impossibility that remaking the Org in your image vision would have any negative consequences whatsoever. I'd say something like I'll fall on my sword but that sounds like Total War, and we can't have that anymore.
I have provided no vision. I said if people didn't want to deviate from TotalWar then that is understandable. You are the one that is showing his hand by getting defensive about a position I have never made.
Everything I have talked about, I have derived from the vision that has been given to me from the org. Which is 1. higher standards of conduct. 2. higher standards for arguments. Both of which are mutually exclusive from a massively popular video game forum where the kiddies like to bicker about whether Xbox 360 or PS3 is better.
If you do not want the org to promote its gameroom, then by all means make the case. But don't try to make this out as an intellectual coup of the org, I may be tolerated around here, but I am not exactly free of character damaging hypocrisy when it comes to the argument I have presented.
Alright, here are my ideas essentially... For whatever it is worth...
Go 100% egalitarian on TW-games....
Rough theory...
Recognize that the supposed “TW-community” – usually loosely defined as people who play TW-games somehow - is in fact not one community, but several communities. As I understand it, roughly one per each released PC TW-game (at least).
Recognize ALL these (6?) communities, respect and treat them as equals. This means equal shares “of the cake” (ORG-resources, support, recognition and exposure etc. etc.) and that order must be enforced at all times. Favour and privileges to any one community (regardless of circumstances) is the discrimination of others. Size and popularity of X-community means nothing – the larger communities can express that aspect by creating proportional quantities of material for their own benefit and it will thus naturally gain its fair amounts of exposure due to higher levels/frequency of “news-worthy-material” produced (“news-worthy” is an aspect that needs to be somehow defined and specified btw). Obviously NTW will have to be fully and finally recognized here (this regardless what we may think of it in relation to ETW). We can not afford the luxury of dealing with favourites here as that is the road to death…
Recognize the fact that the TW-games are indeed different and that people do prefer the one above the other. That is why the doctrine of TW-egalitarianism is necessary to ensure that no community will be “left out in the cold” in order to serve another community/game. So that everybody can feel welcome and at home here and truly feel that their “fave game” is taken and treated just as seriously as any other TW-game – not on paper, but in practice, resources and infrastructure.
Recognize the importance of longevity and diversity in TW-games (and its communities). That means a shift in focus from the static original XTW(x) to the altered and modded game because it there this longevity is found. It is that stuff that provides new experiences, aspects, discoveries, articles, discussions and reasons for people to come here and sign up – and stick around. It also generates diversity in alternatives, both within one TW-title, but also between the different TW-titles as each TW-title will be sustained by that internal diversity, due altered versions. The Egalitarian doctrine enables all that and more importantly it enforces these things if put to proper practice. Ultimately making sure that “there is something for everybody” on a whole other level. New or old player, no matter – the egalitarian doctrine caters to all regardless the “fave game” might be, this by default – it allows that circumstance, it enforces that circumstance.
Recognize that the stubborn focus, attention and exposure by ORG-staff of STW2 (as it happens to be the latest game) must cease as it clearly done at the expense of other the communities/games. The effort made for STW2 is great, but it should be done for all games – at the same time, with equal resources… That is hardly the case. If we are into STW2 all is fine and well - if not - then we instead have a problem and what I would categorize as another element of structural and practiced discrimination (at several levels). Therefore it should be terminated immediately as it works destructively on other communities.
Recognize the benefit of a clearly defined TW-framework, what it actually is supposed to be - so that becomes a doubtless certainty. Once that is known, we can also act and set practice in direct relation to it. It simplifies things, it crystallizes what this site is actually supposed to be about and deal with - and what not too - in any matter. What is actually a priority and what is not etc. Such a definition could be – for instance – all and any TW-games ever released for PC(/MAC), and only that, or anything directly related or relevant to that somehow. Everything else that fails to meet these criterions can and will be ignored and excluded from the TW-framework. …Cell phone mini-games or not, why even bother with it in the first place – basically let some other site worry about all that – and they will... We can have a clear and restricted focus, why not stick to that and make things easier while we still can. Additional “services” and non-TW stuff can still very well exist as additional elements of the site - but - not at the expense of TW-activities and resources. TW-activities in whatever form are what is interesting here - all the rest can still happen regardless and are thus ignored (in this text).
Recognize the necessity and advantages of setting up standards and specifications, pre-defined and formulated tasks, actions, circumstances etc. etc. Every branch of staff, whatever it may be, should have a “dicta of standards" (should be public btw) to follow and act by. Essentially a work-specification, that explains their task and what is actually expected of them and what privileges they might actually exercise in the line of duty etc. Staff must have some standards to answer to as well (and be judged by it) - and at the same time - newly appointed greenhorn staff also get a clear specification that explains their task and what is actually expected of them straight up (and while you’re at it throw in some good advice from the veterans, it will save both time and energy, and it serves as further reference whenever in doubt). This makes it easier to recruit people to do various tasks on the site as it is obvious that the staff needs to increase in size if the egalitarian doctrine is to be successfully practiced and enforced. All this openly and in writing. Other things that also needs to be standardized and formalized as well. For instance “hosting a mod” - 1. specify what people should do if interested in that, 2. specify what are the terms and conditions for it , 3. specify what is actually offered in the service, 4. specify what is expected (both ways) if this service is used etc. I different options are available, specify, specify, specify…. So people get to know the criterions for having action or circumstance X realized and if it is truly warranted to do so etc. This way, people can actually find out what goes and what not. Such stuff should have been written and posted up for the public long time ago, and visibly and that in each and every TW-section. Every formal decision and practice of significance somehow should be warranted by predetermined specifications that it corresponds too. Formalize. If this is not done, things will get arbitrary – and fast. I am not ok with that, I am not impressed by that - and neither should anybody else be. Awards and titles must be properly specified and pre-determined or it will reduced to arbitrary fluff. And that basically kills it’s actual purpose – to distinguish for reason X. Same thing goes with the titles, senior member are not specified but arbitrary. Either kill the concept or properly specify it so it won’t be arbitrary (or at least can be argued - probably very successfully - to be so). The people, who want it, can then act accordingly and increase their chances as a result. Etc. etc. etc.
Resoning and basics...
There are a lot of TW-gamers out there, and there are a lot of people who just prefers to play other TW-games then the latest title – whether it is STW1, MTW1, RTW or MTW2 does not matter (neither does age, nor gender – interest matters). These are usually different communities on general terms, and they are being increasingly and systematically discriminated and ignored more and more for each new TW-game released. By going 100% Egalitarian on TW, the ORG can create a haven for all those people - and - in parallel also have an open door with “equal treatment and support for all” – including the newer games as well, such as ETW, NTW and STW2. ALL being treated equals, ALL taken seriously, ALL provided attention, activity, support and exposure and this by standing and general practice by ORG-staff.
Then you will eventually (hopefully) have your traffic here because then you will offer something that is not offered anywhere else. No other site can compete with that, as no other site offers that. It would be unique – and that is the strength of it. It also address and answers the “why” on all accounts. “Why should I come here?”, “Why should I post here?” and “Why is it attractive and worthwhile to do both – here?”.
It would be attractive and worthwhile to go here and post because here “my fave TW-game” is treated with the same interest and support as the latest TW-game is treated elsewhere. Here no TW-game will get bunched up together in order to serve the latest title that the mighty SEGA marketing-machinery is currently promoting (as well as the rest of the web. The ORG must stop being such a willing victim of SEGA marketing-devises). Here each game and all work and content for it is treated equally, with equal support and interest. Here all medium-, large- and grand-scale mods/alterations are treated with interest and are reported as news – because it is news – regardless of TW-game.
I’ll use a fire analogy. If a fire is flickering, then the ORG must throw in a log or two from keeping a fire from dying. If a fire dies we must make up another one - that takes more time and effort then just keeping a fire alive and active. In essence, the ORG must regularly invest in a ton of logs and distribute that regularly and evenly on all TW-fires (read TW-section X) to keep them going. Keeping the fires going means that people can see them in the darkness and find their way here. If people are also encouraged to bring their own "firewood" then the ORG can save its logs for later use or elsewhere where it more needed. Keeping all “TW-campfires” alive is priority as it is beneficial for this site as it then can offer more diversity as whole, offering more diversity in TW-games means that more people - regardless of preference -have reason to come and stay here… Once here, recognize people that do find and bring "logs" to the fire on their own. Once that happens, the fires will eventually get bigger and will ultimately attract more people… Etc. etc.
Some practices and standards...
First of all, the static original game can not truly sustain a community long term (it has been proven over and over again, and it has been tried here to death essentially) only mods have that capacity. This is valid from MTW1 all the way to NTW, as I understand it. It is not a mere chance, it is a symptom. The majority play mods, not the original game - long term. This across the board. That is why the modders - regardless the game - are extremely valuable members on these boards - among the most vital folk it will ever have probably - due to the stuff they create as it can be both played and discussed. Over and over again (this has also been proved btw). And it is not static, it is always evolving somehow, at some level somewhere. Nothing can truly compete with that. No guides, no AAR's, no articles, no contests, no nothing. Mods are the kind of stuff people sign up for, possibly more then anything else. Suffice to say that guides, AAR's etc. etc. are mere dwarfs in that context (if that even). And so, mods and related stuff (tools etc.) in general may very well be the most important material these boards can offer. Obviously, it's excellent if all the other stuff is offered as well - but - mods they are the killer, and the ORG must finally act accordingly. This site has suffered heavily for failing to do so, and that for a long time.
Now, the modded and altered game must be allowed to be more closely intertwined with the regular game-sections and what goes on there and not stay confined to “the basement” as is today’s practice. It is vital that Mods/alterations will finally be allowed to play a more prominent role on these boards. Direct links to hosted mods-sections should be set up in each regular-game section. Let the regular-game section function as hub, rather then a museum for the static original game. Make every important sub-section accessible from there. Make it the living and pumping heart of it all. Tech-help subforums as per each TW-game should be created and set up, a direct link to it in the regular game-section. An AAR’s archive/sub-forum should be set up as per each TW-game – also with direct link in the regular section. As new AAR’s are written and posted they should be allowed their “glory-lap” for a limited time (say 2 weeks) in the regular section before being transferred to the archive. Same thing goes for guides and after a “glory-lap” they too should be transferred into a “library” and preserved (also a subforum, and this regardless the subject or context, if it deals with XTW somehow it should be included) and made easily available and properly organized as well. Create indexes of medium-scaled (say 300+ files) and large-scaled (say 1000+ files) and grand-scaled mods (say 5000+ files), set up a sticky of that index in the regular section so it get easily, and visibly accessible for all. If no such full indexes are made – then create them right now, as all TW-game sections should have that (yesterday). Such an index should have at least have notes on: Mod Name/title:, theme/setting:, scale-class:, listing of all engine-specifications:, listing of language used:, listing of the latest version and status:, listing of release year: and listing of the creator/team that created it:. If it is not playable somehow it should not be indexed. The reasons for all this are obvious.
A standing specialized XTW “news-thread” and “news-commentary”-thread should be set up (stickied obviously). The first could be locked to keep it clean and orderly, the second open, so people can comment on any news as much as they like. And, the news-thread should be at least be updated in quarterly intervals (for all moddable games at least) - spring/summer/autumn/winter – updates (covering medium-, large- and grand-scale mods, releases of such, previews of such, mini-interviews, articles etc. etc.). Assign a content/news-person to each TW-game section (ideally somebody who is actually interested in that game) with the standing task of searching, finding and posting news somehow within that section so it can be reported upon both in that section and at the front page if significant enough (medium- , large- and grand-scale mod-releases for instance etc.). Make interviews or mini-interviews with interesting modders/other persons of that specialized community. Hold regular screen-contests, AAR’s or whatever have you – something – and work actively to get things active and happening (all section personnel should be tasked with this). Keeping the wheels spinning, so to speak. Activate people and give them purpose and a reason to stick around. This on all TW-games - at the same time (STW1 might be an exception for further discussion as it is barely possible to mod that game "meaningfully" – which is basically key-factor for all this to work).
The ORG-must thus start to engage and trust more people, and expand its staff somehow, and to make that easier it has to define and specify what each task means and what need to be done in that specific task - and in general. Offer recognition and rewards/awards/titles somehow to people that do a good job. And…. That recognition and reward/award has to be the real thing – not some more damn fluff. This means it can not be arbitrary but must be specified and pre-determined, and the integrity of that must be maintained and defended to preserve its value. That is true meritocracy and this place will need it to make all this work. Failure to properly enforce that and everything will fall apart, eventually. Obviously, we must always fight the constant dangers of abuse, corruption, nepotism and hypocrisy.
There will be plenty of tasks to deal with, and people must be enrolled to get things functioning. The ORG must essentially delegate responsibilities as we will need people to administrate and maintain each section and all in it. Each TW-section should strive for being virtually self-reliant and that means that a hierarchy to keep things in order will be probably advisable. Every position (whatever it may be) should be held in strictly limited time-intervals (pre-defined) in order to keep everybody sharp and serious in their work. The actual proceedings on how these positions are filled are open for debate. Anyways… It could look like this….
Section general functionary. This person should be responsible for the entire section, and all proceedings happening there and all personnel working in that section, the task is to see to it that everything is working and to satisfactory standards. Obviously full moderating rights in entire TW-section.)
Section regular functionary. This person should be responsible for one or more sub-section(s). Essentially an executive officer that makes sure A, B and C happens. Essentially the counterpart to what is a standard ORG staff-moderator is today, can hand out infractions etc. etc.
Section junior functionary. There will be a bunch of sub-forums and tasks to deal with in ALL TW-sections. Things that needs to be maintained and kept clean and orderly. All this stuff can be done by “junior moderators” that have moderating right’s in the sub-forums/sections they are responsible for. Library's, archives, tech-forums, mod-forums, news-coverage etc. etc. All that can be done by junior staff recruited from respective community.
It is a rough outline but the general principle should be clear, delegation and a hierarchy somehow will be necessary for all this to work. I don't think there is any viable alternative to that.
Polemics...
The latest game doctrine…
The doctrine of “favouring the latest game” to ensure “new blood” has clearly been tried, tested and failed to deliver the desired results. There is little doubt that it has not provided the supposed “magic” of new blood and traffic. If it ever could do that - it would have already done so at this point. It has not. Not to any significant degree that warrants any continued practice of that doctrine. And, it is hardly a question of effort (because people here have certainly tried), it is matter of a flawed doctrine, based upon flawed premises.
It does not work and that’s the problem, because this has been done virtually everywhere and this means that the ORG has also effectively stripped itself of most advantages in the struggle for attention, interest and traffic. The casual gamer is not the future for this site, they never were. Once they are done with the game they leave it and move on to the next shiny thing they find, they are nomads who don’t give a rats ass about the ORG. All that effort to appease these casual gamers has then, once that stage is reached, been utterly wasted as they will still leave this site regardless. What is even worse is that this is conducted at the expense of the already “TW-faithfuls” of other and older games – as resources that could have served them, have instead been pulled away to serve and realize this folly.
Whatever strength the ORG had in the other TW-games has been further damaged because of this practice. It has to cease as the gains are nowhere enough to compensate the damage done by it. It is the hooked TW-people that counts and if this site can offer something unique and interesting enough for them, they will find their way here eventually and then stick around because of it. That is my analysis.
Alright, that's enough.... Now, I do not claim to know everything, I do not claim to have answers for everything, I do not claim to have full grasp of every detail everywhere or even that I have addressed every detail. I have only done the best I could with the info I have had and what little I know - whether that info is true, false or both - time will tell. I am open to discuss all of this, the best way I can.
- A
I actually advocate for no direct competition with the TWC - honestly I think it is pointless to have two fansites that do almost the same things. I like to see the ORG specialize in certain things and appearl to specific groups of users, such as those who have been defining what the ORG is. I think most of us already have a pretty good idea of what kind of users we are, so it should be easy to come up with ideas to attract like-minded users.
Yet I agree that we have been quite lacking on the game side (for Shogun 2 at least), which serves to bring people to the ORG in the first place. Holding contests should be an effective way to increase interests, as the participants and winners will be more likely to base in the ORG for their future projects.
Being non-mainstream means that we can be more creative in pioneering new concepts and projects. Personally I feel forming close ties with a few nice folk is much more important than barely knowing ten thousand people. Once we give the regular contributors a sense of belonging and appreciation, they will stay.
a completely inoffensive name
05-05-2012, 05:35
I disagree with Axalon. I see no demand of older TW game communities to be treated "fairly" with the newest ones. It's a forum, the community doesn't care if lots of attention are given else ware as long as they are having fun with each other.
This would fall under "trying to beat the TWC at it's own game." but this is going about it the wrong way. The last thing the org needs is to waste time asking people "is your free forum not treating you like you want to be treated? Come to the org!" And then following that up with apparently stiff hierarchy placating those that come with daily pats on the back.
If that is what the org is going to do for some numbers, then I will be disappointed.
a completely inoffensive name
05-05-2012, 05:39
Personally I feel forming close ties with a few nice folk is much more important than barely knowing ten thousand people. Once we give the regular contributors a sense of belonging and appreciation, they will stay.
This is an important point. What we should be striving for is around double to quadruple our current active members (~760), not trying to get into the tens of thousands.
Axalon
About treating all games and their communities equal. Each and every single TW game has their own subfora already. Because the games are older, there's less activity, less members. The resources are here for everybody. But except for the EB fora, where there are regular screenshot contests and other activities, there aren't many people around asking for our resources.
As for being more clear about the different branches of staff, you can find more info on the .Org staff structure HERE (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?134713-New-Org-Staff-Structure).
I see the point of the focus being almost exclusively on the newest total war game. But isn't that normal? After all, there are already tons of informations and discussions about the older games. People looking for help and advice for an older game, will most likely find that information in an old thread. If people post about TW, what are they most likely going to post about? The new game of course. Because, well that's new :shrug: There will be far more unanswered questions about the new game than about the old game. So if we want to attract new members (and every community needs a regular influx of new blood in order to survive), we need to give them as much useful information about the new game as possible. That's the carrot we need to hold in front of people to make them sign up.
Once they're signed up, it's the task of the existing community, staff and members alike, to make those new members feel welcome. Talk to them. Make them feel at home. There lies the leading role of staff. But the members need to do their share of the work too.
I understand your point of keeping the fire burning in dying fora, but there's only so much staff can do. We don't have an infinite amount of logs to throw on the fire; if most of the time, it are our logs that are needed to throw on the fire and all too seldom somebody else throws his own log, it won't work, imo.
It's a forum, the community doesn't care if lots of attention are given else ware as long as they are having fun with each other.
That's a key element. People sign up because they are TW fans; they stay because they have fun talking to other people.
Axalon, I see your point in your previous post about spam and frivolity being disruptive. But on a forum, spam, nonsense, bad jokes, etc. are key elements. It's why most people stay, because it's just fun to fool around a bit; it makes the forum "less dry" and for most people, it's the having fun with each other part that really makes them come to a certain forum. Your point isn't without merit though, but it goes only for a set number of fora: the Guides fora and the modding section can't have nonsensical funny post that add nothing. Outside those however, there's room for "just having some fun", imo.
About modding prolonging the playability of the game, that's very true. But what more can the .Org do to have modders come over here besides giving them facilities (their own fora (visible or invisible), a place to upload files, putting up advertisement to announce a release/changes/to let the community know you're looking for extra team members)? It is true that having a new gaming experience with a mod will result in people posting about it and will generate more activity, but again: what more can we do than reach out a hand to the modders, tell them they can have a lot of facilities and resources?
So, if the modders don't come, what do we have left to make members stay and post once they got the TW info they came for? The non totalwar related fora. After welcoming them and talking to them in the first fora they visit, we need to invite them over to other fora. Show them the way around here. It's difficult to find your way on our current forum index. It's longish and we're working on shortening it, making a simplified version so people can find their way around here more easy. "Old" members should advertise their favourite off topic forum in their sigs. Talk about their favourite subforum in other fora. Things like that.
Once we give the regular contributors a sense of belonging and appreciation, they will stay.
Not just the "regular contributors" but all contributors.
frogbeastegg
05-05-2012, 19:54
I can certainly see your point and I agree totally, it could be a very useful and effective tool. Assuming that it will not be overused and lose all meaning... Like the stars on threads.... It has ended up in 5 stars or no stars and usually completely arbitrary, or so I believe. As I understand it, this star-stuff is strictly a staff-thing/option, so I guess you guys are to blame for all that.... :)
Staff normally use the tool to draw attention to the thread they feel is noteworthy in some way. One person's opinion of what's notable is not always another's, and at the moment there's no way for that second opinion to change the thread's average rating. Since we want to encourage people to post, staff are not likely to mark topics down. That would be giving them an official "Boring!" sign, one step away from closing them as spam. At least a closed topic gets a note from the person responsible, making it less ... callous. A public system wouldn't have quite the same sting to it.
The system may or may not work. We'd need to see how people react to it. If people started spamming 5 or 1 star ratings on everything the feature would be disabled again.
I wonder, is it even possible to remove the stars completely from a thread? I would actually be intersted in getting a solid answer on that.
Possible, yes. Easy, no. It needs to be changed manually on a per-thread basis. Only admin can do that.
So, put it in stasis then... Things might just change some day...
It's in with our other zombie ideas, shambling about and wailing "Braaaaaains!" whilst it waits for the day when it can return.
:bow:
Alright Andres, I'll reply to your post in bit and pieces over multiple posts and work my self down on it whenever I might have some comments for it. So, first up...
About treating all games and their communities equal. Each and every single TW game has their own subfora already.
That is not true... CA's NTW has no own section/sub-fora at the ORG (whatever you want to call it). It is all bunched up with ETW. If NTW had it's own section, your claim would be true. As it has not, your claim falls apart.
Personally, I don't give a flying rats ass about NTW - never even bothered with it. However, I can look beyond myself and at the bigger picture here - and then it certainly does have a strong symbolical importance. If all ALL released TW-PC-games were to have each a section as per game. The ORG will then at least have a rhetorical ace that no other fan-forum can counter or compete with. "We seriously deal with all TW, not just with some TW". Namely, "one game, one section - we treat every game seriously enough to have that".... Get my drift? If you ask me, it's worthwhile to do it just to be able to say that - and it might even convince some NTW-fan or two to sign up here as well - and I fail to see the harm in that. You could use the same personnel as now, if that works fine as it is? Their responsibilities would probably be the about the same even if it in a strictly formal sense it would be "doubled" due to another TW-section.
Personally, I always valued the ORG due to its egalitarian tendencies towards TW, to me that is a major strength of this place - as no such tendencies are truly found and practiced elsewhere (so far, that can change as well). ALL other fan sites bunches games together somehow or possibly fail to address some game(s) completely. Its a classic and standard mistake and I fail to see any good reason why the ORG should do it as well... And yet again lose another possible edge to other sites. Why?
Because the games are older, there's less activity, less members.
I agree. However a heavier focus on mods may very well slow that process down significantly - hell even reverse it somewhat. It has happened before (in other games), and I think it can again - if we work on it. MTW2 is still the biggest TW over at the TWC and its hardly because the original game is exceptional somehow - it's because of the mods for it. I do suggest that we should at least try to consider ways to retain and activate the remaining existing "regular" members of section X. Instead of just leaving it be. I think it is at least worth to consider, not just passively stand by and let it fade away - staff included, because this is not solely the members responsibility - it is the staffs as well. I think TinCow is right, in the way that a few regular posts here and there on your "fave game" could do "plenty of bang" in relation to the actual effort. I think it is well worth a try, I mean what do we have to lose by trying it? About zero it seems?
The resources are here for everybody. But except for the EB fora, where there are regular screenshot contests and other activities, there aren't many people around asking for our resources.
Oh... That does set things in a different light, doesn't it? Well, at least we should try to consider ways to change that reality, no? I'll be happy to use some resources, I'll just have to find ways in which it is warranted to do so.
As for the branches of staff...
I have no objections to that outlined model, it looks good in general. My gripe is basically that the content-branch don't seem to operate beyond STW2 (do they at all?) - which I believe they should. There are 5-6(?) of these guys and I have yet to see them post or show any sort of presence in the MTW1 section for instance (this since the branch was set up). They should search for news, content and stuff in every TW-section to promote, and I can pretty much guarantee that they will be able to find something somewhere because of it. The one-sided focus on STW2 does not cut it. It is a poor implementation of an otherwise good idea, the practice should be changed as to include ALL TW and what goes on here and not just for STW2. That's, essentially my criticism here.
I'll use my own stuff as an example to prove my point. Now, I seriously doubt that had I not posted up my notes on the front-page myself - the content-branch would have missed it completely that I had a major release in April 2012. I mean, this is a grand-scale mod - some 7000+ files strong (this in total, the mod as such is about 6800 files, latest version). Hell even the folks over at the TWC realize that such stuff is news and so that stuff has been reported on - several times - in their publications over the years and it will probably be so again some day, over there. That's the TWC... The place that usually don't give a damn about MTW1 or STW1 essentially... Here, at the ORG however, no such thing has ever been attempted - even once - this since the content-branch was first created and I have now had 4 major releases since then. So, is it fair to say that the content-branch could do a better job? I think it is very reasonable to say so... Because if they are able to miss something like that - god knows what else they have missed around here that is not STW2. Get my drift?
As I understand things, it should not have been me that posted the existing notes on my stuff, it should have been them... I mean, it certainly strikes me as something that falls under aspect of, and I quote "maintain and promote content". Or did I get that declaration completely wrong somehow?
The ORG needs to take better care of the mods and stuff it actually has and make sure that the people that really do provide actual "content" here on their own (modders etc.) can feel recognized and supported here by staff. Not by some pretty words, but by active and regular action, hell even a post or two to show for it (not just to the modders, but to the rest of the world as well).... If you pull that off and do it seriously - and regularly - then you will eventually have more modders that feels it might just be worthwhile to start operate here and that will clearly work beneficial for the site. More modders and mods = more traffic. Just saying...
I'll do more comments later on...
- A
As for post: 149-151....
If people want to question or disagree with my post:148 , at least read it (properly) first. After having done that, you can disagree with everything in it as much as you want. Preferably, by providing some solid reasons for it.
- A
a completely inoffensive name
05-07-2012, 21:15
As for post: 149-151....
If people want to question or disagree with my post:148 , at least read it (properly) first. After having done that, you can disagree with everything in it as much as you want. Preferably, by providing some solid reasons for it.
- A
I did read it. And I still think it is a whole lot of words that ultimately say nothing relevant.
Peasant Phill
05-08-2012, 12:10
...As for the branches of staff...
I have no objections to that outlined model, it looks good in general. My gripe is basically that the content-branch don't seem to operate beyond STW2 (do they at all?) - which I believe they should. There are 5-6(?) of these guys and I have yet to see them post or show any sort of presence in the MTW1 section for instance (this since the branch was set up). They should search for news, content and stuff in every TW-section to promote, and I can pretty much guarantee that they will be able to find something somewhere because of it. The one-sided focus on STW2 does not cut it. It is a poor implementation of an otherwise good idea, the practice should be changed as to include ALL TW and what goes on here and not just for STW2. That's, essentially my criticism here.
I'll use my own stuff as an example to prove my point. Now, I seriously doubt that had I not posted up my notes on the front-page myself - the content-branch would have missed it completely that I had a major release in April 2012. I mean, this is a grand-scale mod - some 7000+ files strong (this in total, the mod as such is about 6800 files, latest version). Hell even the folks over at the TWC realize that such stuff is news and so that stuff has been reported on - several times - in their publications over the years and it will probably be so again some day, over there. That's the TWC... The place that usually don't give a damn about MTW1 or STW1 essentially... Here, at the ORG however, no such thing has ever been attempted - even once - this since the content-branch was first created and I have now had 4 major releases since then. So, is it fair to say that the content-branch could do a better job? I think it is very reasonable to say so... Because if they are able to miss something like that - god knows what else they have missed around here that is not STW2. Get my drift?
As I understand things, it should not have been me that posted the existing notes on my stuff, it should have been them... I mean, it certainly strikes me as something that falls under aspect of, and I quote "maintain and promote content". Or did I get that declaration completely wrong somehow?
The ORG needs to take better care of the mods and stuff it actually has and make sure that the people that really do provide actual "content" here on their own (modders etc.) can feel recognized and supported here by staff. Not by some pretty words, but by active and regular action, hell even a post or two to show for it (not just to the modders, but to the rest of the world as well).... If you pull that off and do it seriously - and regularly - then you will eventually have more modders that feels it might just be worthwhile to start operate here and that will clearly work beneficial for the site. More modders and mods = more traffic. Just saying...
I'll do more comments later on...
- A
Hi Axalon, I appreciate your input. I'm not taking anything you say personal and anything I say shouldn't be viewed solely as a way to evade my respsonsabilities. Rather as an explenation of the current situation and a base from which suggestions can be brought forward.
As a CM I feel I must respond to your comments above. The content staff is rather small. There are 5 of us at the moment, I believe, 2 with an assigned task (throne room for example). That leaves 3 for the entire Org. Keeping that number up has been very dificult. CM's seem to burn out fast and new ones are hard to find.
I probably spent around 1,5 to 2 hours on the Org every day (with some exeptions of course) reading and posting in no less than 7 subfora (staff subfora included). That doesn't include small side tasks originating from being a CM. I can honestly say I can do no more (unles I get payed).
I'm sure great content is missed on a daily basis. At the moment it can't be helped. That's why the tools have been provided to post your own articles on the front page, to make your own blog on the Org. You say it's the job of a CM to find every worthwile contribution and put it in a spotlight. I say the possibility is here to put your contributions in the spotlight and the CM's are here to help if you would need it. If that makes me obselete in your eyes, I will gladly step down (I could do with a sabatical).
Concerning the so-called overemphasis on Shogun 2, I can say that this is a deliberate strategy. New TW titles bring in new members. As staff (certainly the CM's), we agreed that Shogun 2 and it's following games would get priority (together with one or two other subfora). It's only logical. I wish we had enough CM's (and time) to give every subforum equal attention but that just isn't the case.
So what to do about it?
One simple word: emancipation. The CM's can't be everywhere so you (every member) have to draw our attention. If you have contributed something worthwhile or have seen such a contribution by another member, just PM me or Graphic or Voigtkampf. We'll gladly put it in the spotlight.
Hope to have cleared a few things up.
PP
If people want to question or disagree with my post:148 , at least read it (properly) first.
I am actually in full support of... "self support". If contributors feel that they have done a great work, they should actively seek ways to promote their babies and not wait for the moderators to be englightened. Different moderators have different areas of interests, and it is very easy for a moderator to completely ignore an unfamiliar area simply because they cannot easily tell exceptional from average. And the contributors are fully justified to request the promotion of their works.
Modding is certainly an important area of modern games and should receive significant attention. I personally do not use mods for STW2 because I feel there are already enough vanilla contents, but I know many others will immediately apply mods without playing vanilla.
Yet currently the TWC modding community has been significantly developed and I wonder whether it would be meaningful to set up just a mirror site in ORG. Here is a question for modding experts - is the TWC lacking in a particular modding area that we can fill? Or It might be hard to maintain a sustainable modding community in the ORG otherwise.
Another post for you Andres, related to post:152....
I see the point of the focus being almost exclusively on the newest total war game. But isn't that normal? After all, there are already tons of informations and discussions about the older games. People looking for help and advice for an older game, will most likely find that information in an old thread. If people post about TW, what are they most likely going to post about? The new game of course. Because, well that's new :shrug: There will be far more unanswered questions about the new game than about the old game. So if we want to attract new members (and every community needs a regular influx of new blood in order to survive), we need to give them as much useful information about the new game as possible. That's the carrot we need to hold in front of people to make them sign up.
I have zero problems following your logic. And plenty of it does makes excellent sense. However, that does not necessarily mean that I do come to the same conclusions as you do, or look at it in the same way. There are other aspects to it as well – that should at least be considered here. If we do that, things will get more complicated and problematic, or so I believe. I have already been pointing at this stuff and I will now do so again, but this time in more detail as to get the point across.
Now, Information is good stuff, hell its great stuff – but – it is also standard stuff. Essentially available and offered in every site somehow. Here is where “normal” works against us… Hoping to beat the competition and come out on top with that somehow strikes me as unrealistic, at best an unreliable strategy. If we look at the results so far this strategy has failed to deliver any promising results that actually warrants further confidence in it. So, the supposed carrot you speak of is practically available every forum that covers STW2 somehow. That’s one bit.
Then there is also the matter of the site “standing out in the crowd”, this strategy fails to do that as it does not truly offer something that enables that in the first place. At least if we look at this soberly, we can hardly expect that offering the same thing as everybody else is going to set us drastically apart somehow. Our carrot is essentially the same as any other available everywhere basically. That’s a second bit.
Then the factor of the casual gamers (which clearly will be the majority of potentials we are hoping for here, as we are dealing with the latest game. In effect STW2/FOTS, so far) and what we might realistically expect of them. In this strategy we are obviously focusing on the casual gamer, more then anything else. At best, they do sign up, they do their utterly self-serving posts and then they will disappear once they have no further need for us - very possibly forever. They simply don’t give a rat’s ass about this site or the people that frequent this place. I think it is naïve to deny that. We essentially have no reason what so ever to assume anything other then a strikingly small minority will actually break that pattern and do stick around – long term. The track record obviously supports this conclusion as well. So, we are essentially waving the carrot to the wrong crowd. That’s a third bit.
The effort and focus on this strategy, is hardly properly motivated either as it is not a very effective in actually generating that new blood – this in large part due to the third bit. Again the track record is rather clear about that. Plenty of energy and attention must be invested to cater these STW2-arrivals making sure they have that information that you are talking about. The effort of holding that carrot does not stand in reasonable proportion to the actual gains of holding it up there. That’s a fourth bit.
Then there is the aspect of this strategy failing to recognize that the TW-community is not one but several communities. Now, while the focus is steadily fixed on catering the “STW2”-folk we simply lack a serious “plan-B” that addresses the very real possibility that we are actually missing out on potentially very promising candidates that play something else then STW2. People who are unlikely to be casual gamers but truly hooked on TW somehow. The people we actually want here as they are clearly more likely to stick around – if we provide them a reason(s) to do so. This regardless the game, it might be ETW or whatever. The circumstance is the same regardless. We have no true plan how to somehow convince them to actually sign up – but more importantly – to stick around if they do sign up. So, in effect the people that we should be waving that carrot in-front of is basically ignored. That’s a fifth bit.
The point should be clear enough at this stage...
Conclusions...
This strategy and the high hopes on it are bad news once we also consider these five aspects. Looking at things in this way, does raise a lot of warranted questions about it and its continued practice. This strategy is then essentially a “wild-card” and it has so far failed to properly deliver that “magic” influx of new blood that all TW-communities of this site need to get vital again. Just leaving all the other games/communities to tend for themselves in favor of STW2 and hope for the best is not a healthy nor viable strategy – long term. This has been conducted for over a year now – ever since STW2 was released…
To me it is obvious; this is not good for the site or for any of its several communities – save STW2 perhaps (short term) – this utterly regardless how “normal” things may seem or might be. It has failed to produce any promising results and this site gets weaker because of it. Act accordingly. Devise another and new strategy, a better one, more diverse, more reliable, more efficient, more distinctive and above all more successful one. At least try to set up a contingency-plan to patch up and cover the worst flaws of this current strategy somehow. That ultimately means that the solid fixation on STW2 will have to give way to something else. We can not solely rely on selling “carrots” in this context, we need “apples”, “oranges” and what have you – stuff that is rare and not available elsewhere. Stuff that makes this place distinctive, attractive and stand out. To increase our chances at this we should also be aiming for more people then just the casual gamers of STW2. We must plan for and target other and more promising “customers” of TW.
The work of establishing information for STW2 can and indeed should continue (I am all for that) - but - the hard focus and all the high hopes on that should cease (because that I do question, due to outlined reasons above). Re-examine your strategy, make a new and better one, a less destructive one, a more realistic and reliable one. That is basically what I am trying to convey here.
...
I understand your point of keeping the fire burning in dying fora, but there's only so much staff can do. We don't have an infinite amount of logs to throw on the fire; if most of the time, it are our logs that are needed to throw on the fire and all too seldom somebody else throws his own log, it won't work, imo.
Alright, I believe you. Now, do you have a better suggestion? Because doing nothing at all is hardly a strategy, now is it? We have too at least try to do something... I don’t have any statistics on each section but it would be very interesting to see such data – instead of just doing some wild guesses on which TW-section "seems" to receive the most/least traffic and visits, most/least activity etc. etc. After that, we would have some solid basis on which sections actually are worse off then others – and get clear understanding of what we are really dealing with and where... Just leave it be in favor the latest game, is no plan and it will obviously not magically fix it self somehow.
Ok, I'll do more comments later...
- A
Hello Phill,
Correct me if I am wrong, but this can be reduced to a problem of manpower, right? Provided that content-branch get enough manpower, are you and I still going to have difference in opinions here? Roughly speaking?
If so, let me know... Now, if everything boils down to manpower. Maybe your branch should re-examine the requirements for becoming part of that staff? Making it a little easier to qualify or something? That might open up a few more possibilities for you guys. I don't have the details, you do, so I can't give any direct suggestions and ideas even if I wanted too. Obviously, it has to be a priority 1 for you guys to get that manpower...
If you have contributed something worthwhile or have seen such a contribution by another member, just PM me or Graphic or Voigtkampf. We'll gladly put it in the spotlight.
You bet. I'll do it until the manpower-issue is resolved (obviously I can do it afterwards as well, but then I will not do so actively) - then your people can take over and basically do it. I have already established contact with the "bladerunner" (VK), if that fails I'll go to the "peasantry" (you). Anyways, I already have my duties as a local moderator and so this will still be your operation and responsibility, but I'll help in the way I can...
- A
Hello Maltz, some comments for you (as to post:158)...
I am actually in full support of... "self support".
Great, lets try to make more people join that movement/notion then...
... and not wait for the moderators to be englightened. Different moderators have different areas of interests, and it is very easy for a moderator to completely ignore an unfamiliar area simply because they cannot easily tell exceptional from average.
If that really is the case, I would think it is warranted to raise the question if that moderator is actually suitable for the job and especially the area assigned to him/her. I would argue that another additional moderator or assisstant moderator would be preferable (if possible) as to cover the area in question (whatever it might be) as thoroughly as possible - as I think that would be desirable somehow. At least the flaw would be better covered and countered that way.
because they [the moderators] cannot easily tell exceptional from average.
If they lack the skills required, they should contact and consult an expert in the field as to treat whatever X as seriously and fairly as possible. I think anybody who has clearly worked hard deserves that much at least. Hard work is hard work, and should be treated with enough respect to get that courtesy...
Yet currently the TWC modding community has been significantly developed and I wonder whether it would be meaningful to set up just a mirror site in ORG. Here is a question for modding experts - is the TWC lacking in a particular modding area that we can fill? Or It might be hard to maintain a sustainable modding community in the ORG otherwise.
If the ORG does not seriously try to get modders to operate here - you can kiss this site goodbye straight up. I'm not joking here, that's more or less a fact. Why? Because the original game is static, it can not sustain any community anywhere long term, that is the "why" for you right there... The ORG will never be something more then an ever shrinking shadow of past glory days until it is finally abandoned utterly. This is hardly up for debate, as there is no true alternative here, the question is how shall we get the modders to operate here, and in what numbers, and in what games because they must operate here in order for this site to survive at all. Having said that...
The TWC did not get there in one day - they worked for it, hard and seriously. They invested in their modders, they more or less focused on their modders. More so then this site probably ever have. And another thing, they did not consider what the ORG was up to either as they did it - they did their own thing totally regardless. That is exactly what the ORG need to do as well. It is a non-factor if the TWC has the same thing or not. Why? Because it is utterly ridiculous to even try designing the ORG after what the TWC do have and have not. The ORG is an individual entity, not a copy or a twin. These two sites are not "sister-sites", they are two sites who share the supposed to focus on TW somehow.
The TWC is in large part successful because it has fully realized the importance of modders and mods and they have acted accordingly and this seriously while the ORG basically and stubbornly held on to its focus on the static original games and have suffered because of it. The TWC don't give rats ass if you are "mature and superior" as long as you follow the their TOS, they have realized in contrast to many people here that they can not afford such blatant chauvinism and have acted accordingly. Obviously, I simply here, but there is probably plenty of truth in it still.
Overall, my impression is that the TWC deal with mods better and more seriously then the ORG does (considering current realities, it is pretty much a matter of fact). The TWC have also such things much more standardized, more formalized and a more solid infrastructure for all that in place. It has more manpower to actively deal with, and maintain, all that somehow. Now, does that still mean that the ORG can not have the same thing or be even better somehow at some point? Of course not! It is a matter of planning, strategy, determination, actual practices and manpower. If we lack some of that we must compensate somehow, do the things we can do and do them well - ever trying to be better then the competition. Otherwise it is essentially "game over".
That is how we should approach these things, or so I believe.
- A
Alright, I believe you. Now, do you have a better suggestion? Because doing nothing at all is hardly a strategy, now is it? We have too at least try to do something... I don’t have any statistics on each section but it would be very interesting to see such data – instead of just doing some wild guesses on which TW-section "seems" to receive the most/least traffic and visits, most/least activity etc. etc. After that, we would have some solid basis on which sections actually are worse off then others – and get clear understanding of what we are really dealing with and where... Just leave it be in favor the latest game, is no plan and it will obviously not magically fix it self somehow.
Ok, I'll do more comments later...
- A
I believe we tried to get such data in the past, but it was not possible to have them generated by the forum software we use, I think.
TinCow or Husar can correct me if I'm wrong or if there has something changed since the last attempt to get those data.
I see your point of too much focus on the new game. It's good food for thought. Thanks for the excellent feedback :bow:
Axalon: As has been pointed out, forum moderators are hard to find and they tend to burn out quickly. People such as myself tend to go to the next game, once they think they have finished all that's interesting in this game. But forum moderators have to stay around and fulfill their duties. In my opinion, they should be paid to do these as it could be as repetitive, boring, frustrating, demoralizing, and mind-numbing as most day-time jobs.
If I find a certain forum moderator is mean, ignorant, or incompetent, I simply migrate to another forum of a similar subject. If I really love a forum think it deserves a better moderator, I apply to become one for them and hopefully make a difference. Maybe you can discuss with the ORG staff and revolutionize how the ORG handles the modding section? I am more of a no-mod hardcore single-player strategy person, so I will contribute on my area, too, by keep posting some (hopefully) good stuff.
I think many of us who participate in this thread wants to see the ORG improve. I am optimistic enough that something good is going to happen down the road.
Vladimir
05-11-2012, 17:44
Dont be an arse! And i know this will give me my first ever warning point during my time here.
Then you're doing it wrong!
Sorry, late.
If the ORG does not seriously try to get modders to operate here - you can kiss this site goodbye straight up. I'm not joking here, that's more or less a fact. Why? Because the original game is static, it can not sustain any community anywhere long term, that is the "why" for you right there... The ORG will never be something more then an ever shrinking shadow of past glory days until it is finally abandoned utterly. This is hardly up for debate, as there is no true alternative here, the question is how shall we get the modders to operate here, and in what numbers, and in what games because they must operate here in order for this site to survive at all. Having said that...
The staff are broadly in agreement with you about this, but we're unsure of exactly what we can do to reverse the situation. The organization of the modding sections of the forum is one of the major topics we are discussing now as part of the proposed structural reorganization, but that alone won't do anything. We are, quite frankly, massively blind on the modding sector because we have no one on-staff who is heavily involved in that community. We've tried to rectify this, but have so far been unsuccessful. This has seriously hampered the various efforts we have made over the past year to make the Org a more mod-friendly place. Several months ago, I personally tried to assemble a modding toolkit; essentially, a pack of utilities and files that would be useful to modders for each of the various TW games. The idea was that anyone could download a single compressed file and get all of the important modding tools without having to search for them. The problem I ran into is that I don't know anything about modding. I pulled out every single modding file hosted on the Org, and realized that I have no idea what 90% of them do, let alone whether they are the best tool for that job, or even the most up to date. The fact is, we need help from the modders themselves to do a lot of the more intricate things that would make the Org more modding friendly. We have a lot of resources at our disposal that we can open up to the modders, but we don't know how to use them in an effective way. What can we do to get modders to help us with actual improvements?
Sasaki Kojiro
05-11-2012, 18:56
If I remember correctly back ages ago there was some deal about the twc hosting illegal content and leaked screenshots and stuff like that, which the org deleted when anyone posted them. Since then the sites have pulled really far away in terms of membership numbers. I don't think there's really a complex question, most people only need one website to visit and if they hit one earlier they go to that one and then there's a snowball effect.
Thanks for the information. Since the initial surge of fans are the largest flock, if we lose them, we will naturally lose lots of posts. So maybe in the next TW release we can pull off something to grab people's attention - what can we do legally to attract fans eagerly waiting for a new game's release? History? Films? Exclusive Interviews? Personally I am not a new-release gamer and I rarely play a game within its first 1/2 year of release. So I have very little idea.
By the way, recently I posted some new STW2 single-player guides and started a new campaign story. What does the staff think about this direction? I can still see people viewing the respective forums, but apparently people do not bother to reply. I wonder what keeps people from posting. In other sites I at least get "thank you" notes and some kind of response from the respective admin for a major body of work. What's keeping people and staff away from saying thank you or even use the Thanks icon? Is that because my work is not worth it? I am shamelessly asking the staff to at least make up some response even if you do not read them - not just for my works but also for others', because it really sets an example for regular users to follow.
Gregoshi
05-12-2012, 06:38
In other sites I at least get "thank you" notes and some kind of response from the respective admin for a major body of work. What's keeping people and staff away from saying thank you or even use the Thanks icon?
I've no good excuse and it is thoughtless of me to not have thanked you for your outstanding contributions in the TWS2/FotS forums. Sorry for not acknowledging all your hard work Maltz. :shame:
Hi Gregoshi, I understand that staffs are all busy right now with restructuring and other tasks, so I am definitely not asking for an apology. Just suggesting that a small reply like "thank you for the contribution" in a guide thread which has received no response so far would mean a lot to the original poster and could encourage further responses.
Peasant Phill
05-14-2012, 09:48
...
Correct me if I am wrong, but this can be reduced to a problem of manpower, right? Provided that content-branch get enough manpower, are you and I still going to have difference in opinions here? Roughly speaking?
...
- A
Axalon
I've been thinking this over for a few days. Adding manpower is the quick and easy(?) way to root out and spotlight as much content as possible. I'm just not convinced this is the right way.
Simply adding more staff takes away the spontanity of the community (say what you will but representing something makes you think twice before saying/posting something). Staff shouldn't be what keeps this forum going, the community is. The staff should be here to support the community. Which has been done to a degree, adding the ability to post on the front page for example.
I come to the same coclusion as before. We should be going for emancipation of the Org community rather than what with some flair for the dramatic can be seen as a benevolent despotism.
...Just suggesting that a small reply like "thank you for the contribution" in a guide thread which has received no response so far would mean a lot to the original poster and could encourage further responses.
You are right and we've been thinking of a way to encourage showing appreciation for contributions. That was the reason for adding the 'Thanks'-button. I'm not quite sure how to encourage members to show more appreciation towards for content other than leading by example.
The Blind King of Bohemia
05-14-2012, 13:36
We have a lot of resources at our disposal that we can open up to the modders, but we don't know how to use them in an effective way. What can we do to get modders to help us with actual improvements?
When Rome was released mate the vast majority of modders on the forums lost interest (save a few individuals and the hard working people on EB) and the modding community never really recovered in my honest opinion. Pre-Rome this site was filled to the brim with mods, tools, etc and old heads teaching the others. Wellington, King John and Barocca helped new would be modders but most of us could not be bothered anymore and simply didn't care for the Rome engine at all.
There was a surge of interest though when Medieval II was released and the subsequent Kingdoms expansion with the modding community again rising quite nicely but then began to falter again once Empire came out, well for me anyway. The thing we must remember is that back in the day the vast majority of modders worked as individuals with mods taking a hell of a long time to be released. I can't begin to describe how mind numbing and time consuming it is and as you get older with work and family commitments you just don't have time anymore you know? Since the release of Rome; teams of modders worked together in unison. The old guard on here definitely would help each other out with information and problems but we rarely, if ever worked on a project together. That was just the way we worked.
Hi to all,
just a few remarks from a very new member
As an intro: I never was and never will be interested in anything newer than MTW:VI - not my glass of wine....
frogbeastegg: searching the net for some new info about an ages old game (MTW:VI) I had played for ten years, your guide made me join this community. I want to thank you here for that (made me playing the Turks for the first time! ;-))).
Even long forgotten work CAN bring people here.....
After that, I searched around a bit and fell over this great modding section for M:TW. Tried one, tried another - and will stay glued to this game for sure another ten, fifteen years ;-)
Found Axalon as a so very helpful modder of this old gem, I first didn´t even realize he STILL worked on it - till 1003 was out. You made/make me stay here.
Even old games bring new activities....
Desperate about hardware issues, posted in the Apothecary - took some time, but got willing-to-help answers and backquestions about the problem I had. Dellathane a thanks for that.
Even if it takes some time, problems get solved here.
Meanwhile, jumping around a bit, I´m having my first or second fun-thread going (okay, the first went from topical to fun and ended..), posting about Sundowner Special Camel Steaks, Single Malt Whisky and the (im)possibilities of soberness ;-))
Even side interests are covered here.
So, as a complete new member, having no idea about how this Org thing was before 2, 5 or 10 years, what would I like to change?!?
.....the search function, maybe, it NEVER brought the results/informations I was looking for (full text search aso).
Besides that? Nothing. It´s good as it is, it works as it is, and, old fart that I am, I´d never exchange it for TWC or anything else.
The only thing I regret: Having joined in so late.
THANKS for the work amassed here, for the infos, the fun and the company,
greetings daigaku
daigaku Hear! Hear! old man~:smoking: I too am new to the forums and it was the articles that I read that brought me over from TWC (nik is Eastern.Europe there). I feel more comfortable talking with a few die hards that swimming up hill in the this game sucks or how do you play the game threads. Even will be posting an AAR soon. I too like daigaku will not play with firearms not my cup of tea. But I will probably this year get Rome and its expansions so I can play that also.
Is there a desire to change the BB graphics to something TW instead of padagodas and cherry blossoms? Now maybe it's always been this way but I would like to have a few different Background choices. Maybe we can and I'm not aware of it. I really hate that TWC doesn't have the size for M:TW that we do here. Their M2:TW site is bigger but again that is because of the modders. I think we could get modders over here if we could grab some that would like to stick their hands into the muck and see what prizes are there:clown:
My only other suggestion right now is that the ORG could become a hub for all with a specific TW theme to it. I try to give a coherent reply. I like Mount and Blade, how can I participate in the ORG on that game? I understand we have a section for that but not for talk about the game. I'm not saying make 40,000 little sections with every game out or due out. But how can we get someone who likes that game into seeing the fun the TW series are?
Thanks for the compliments, daigaku (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?95313-daigaku) and Jack50. :bow: It's very nice to have some new faces giving us a pat on the back every once in a while. It really does mean a lot.
Is there a desire to change the BB graphics to something TW instead of padagodas and cherry blossoms? Now maybe it's always been this way but I would like to have a few different Background choices. Maybe we can and I'm not aware of it. I really hate that TWC doesn't have the size for M:TW that we do here. Their M2:TW site is bigger but again that is because of the modders. I think we could get modders over here if we could grab some that would like to stick their hands into the muck and see what prizes are there:clown:
We have a number of forum skins; you can pick between them with the dropdown menu at the very bottom left of the screen. The default (pagodas and cherry blossoms) is the newest theme, called TWS2. It is Japanese themed because the latest TW game is itself Japanese. We have other skins that were designed with themes for the other games, though most of them are much older than TWS2, so they may not look quite as polished as TWS2 does. Morbid is not TW themed, and was designed primarily for easy of readability, with the graphical slant towards our mafia-obsessed gameroom patrons. Lightweight is for smartphones and other small-screen devices.
We're working on a new frontpage right now, with the aim to make it far more attractive. If that goes well, we may try and bash out a polished general TW-themed skin as well, as another modern alternative to the game-specific ones.
Ibn-Khaldun
05-15-2012, 07:26
We're working on a new frontpage right now, with the aim to make it far more attractive. If that goes well, we may try and bash out a polished general TW-themed skin as well, as another modern alternative to the game-specific ones.
I like this new frontpage. You are doing a good job! :2thumbsup:
I like this new frontpage. You are doing a good job! :2thumbsup:
What you see are just side-effects of what we're working on. We're completely re-skining the front page in an effort to make it more readable and modern. There will be an announcement once its finally done and visible to everyone. I'm glad you like the bits that have bled over to the existing skins though. :bow:
We are, quite frankly, massively blind on the modding sector because we have no one on-staff who is heavily involved in that community.
I think it is important that you/staff can admit that, because then you are at least aware of it and can start to act on it (and seek help as well). Overall, it is not a good circumstance but I’m guessing you already knew that. That said, and as I essentially already said in a previous post, "if they don’t have the necessary skills and experiences on subject X – then they should contact and consult an expert on the matter" as to treat it as fairly and seriously as possible. In this case I would say experts, as in several persons that have a clue what the hell they are actually talking about.
My suggestion to you is thus; try to create and set up an “advisory board” of modders from different games and let them work out and outline possible solutions and plans that they think would be advantageous/beneficial as to turn the tide (or at least towards that end). I would think that 5 people would be advisable. 1 for MTW1, 1 for RTW, 1 for MTW2, 1 for ETW/NTW and 1 for STW2 (the first 3 games are at least possible to mod to a serious degree - I am unsure of the warscape engine, but as I understand it, it is limited and problematic - and have not as extensive mods for it as available for MTW1/RTW/MTW2. I don't know if it is as problematic as STW1. Somebody that works with the warscape-engine can tell for sure. My limited impression is that it has more the character of tweaking rather then true and proper modding - but I could be wrong about that). That way you will have a broad and solid foundation and virtually no game/engine are left behind in the process. As I understand it there are similarities in RTW/MTW2 and ETW/NTW/STW2 while MTW1 is clearly very different from the rest. Anyways, that is my suggestion. Invite selected people to form this board. Needless to say, this has to be people who know what serious modding means and has at least one large mod under their belt to show for (say 2000 files strong or so) so they have solid experience and a proper grasp of the public aspects related to modding as well.
We've tried to rectify this, but have so far been unsuccessful. This has seriously hampered the various efforts we have made over the past year to make the Org a more mod-friendly place. Several months ago, I personally tried to assemble a modding toolkit; essentially, a pack of utilities and files that would be useful to modders for each of the various TW games. The idea was that anyone could download a single compressed file and get all of the important modding tools without having to search for them. The problem I ran into is that I don't know anything about modding. I pulled out every single modding file hosted on the Org, and realized that I have no idea what 90% of them do, let alone whether they are the best tool for that job, or even the most up to date. The fact is, we need help from the modders themselves to do a lot of the more intricate things that would make the Org more modding friendly.
The idea is fine, but I can see your problem. Alright, I can offer my services on behalf of MTW1 and the related tools – as I am the most experienced modder still active for MTW1 anyways (both here and the TWC as well). I can help you sort that out or discuss possible additional alternatives to it because I don’t think there will be 1 perfect solution as there will always be some tools that do not make it. In general I would thus suggest that you/staff/whoever standardize the whole damn thing and have continuity on all games in the treatment of tools, and related guides and treat them as per game and in separate dedicated sub-forums each with all such relevant stuff bunched together and clearly catalogued there. I would probably throw in all related guides as well just to keep everything in one place (for the sake of clarity) and then make sure that the access to that place was thoroughly ensured and visible by multiple fixed links to it in various places. Sort it as per game, a vault if you will. We can then create a “recommended tool-box” as per game while all the other stuff that did not make it to that box is still easily accessible all the same in this place. Do this make any sense to you? Anyways, just thinking out loud and on the fly here…
We have a lot of resources at our disposal that we can open up to the modders, but we don't know how to use them in an effective way. What can we do to get modders to help us with actual improvements?
As I said, I suggest the staff try to set up a “modder-advisory board” of sorts to work out a plan and the details for it. Having non-modders doing it will obviously not be as effective. It’s like having non-pilots cook up solutions for airplanes basically – it's just not optimal…
Anyways, I'll try to do some comments on other posts here later...
- A
My suggestion to you is thus; try to create and set up an “advisory board” of modders from different games and let them work out and outline possible solutions and plans that they think would be advantageous/beneficial as to turn the tide (or at least towards that end). I would think that 5 people would be advisable. 1 for MTW1, 1 for RTW, 1 for MTW2, 1 for ETW/NTW and 1 for STW2 (the first 3 games are at least possible to mod to a serious degree - I am unsure of the warscape engine, but as I understand it, it is limited and problematic - and have not as extensive mods for it as available for MTW1/RTW/MTW2. I don't know if it is as problematic as STW1. Somebody that works with the warscape-engine can tell for sure. My limited impression is that it has more the character of tweaking rather then true and proper modding - but I could be wrong about that). That way you will have a broad and solid foundation and virtually no game/engine are left behind in the process. As I understand it there are similarities in RTW/MTW2 and ETW/NTW/STW2 while MTW1 is clearly very different from the rest. Anyways, that is my suggestion. Invite selected people to form this board. Needless to say, this has to be people who know what serious modding means and has at least one large mod under their belt to show for (say 2000 files strong or so) so they have solid experience and a proper grasp of the public aspects related to modding as well.
I would be as giddy as a school girl if this happened. The main problem is finding people to do this. We are very grateful that you would offer to help, and that alone is a great deal more than we've had in a long time. If you know of anyone who would fit the bill for the other games, please let us know who they are, or point them to this thread.
In general I would thus suggest that you/staff/whoever standardize the whole damn thing and have continuity on all games in the treatment of tools, and related guides and treat them as per game and in separate dedicated sub-forums each with all such relevant stuff bunched together and clearly catalogued there. I would probably throw in all related guides as well just to keep everything in one place (for the sake of clarity) and then make sure that the access to that place was thoroughly ensured and visible by multiple fixed links to it in various places. Sort it as per game, a vault if you will. We can then create a “recommended tool-box” as per game while all the other stuff that did not make it to that box is still easily accessible all the same in this place. Do this make any sense to you? Anyways, just thinking out loud and on the fly here…
As a modder, you opinion on the organization of the modding sections is very valuable. Would you prefer to have the modding sections as subsections of each game, as they are now, or would you prefer to have modding broken out into its own main index category, with fora for each game under that? Also, do you think there would be any value in having a generalized Modding forum that is not game-specific? There has been some thinking amongst the staff that perhaps a non-game-specific modding forum would be useful, as something of a boiler-room for modders across all TW games to post in and share ideas or suggestions. However, as we do not have modders on-staff, we have no objective input as to whether that is a good idea, or just a waste of space. What is your ideal organizational structure for modding fora?
The main problem is finding people to do this. We are very grateful that you would offer to help, and that alone is a great deal more than we've had in a long time. If you know of anyone who would fit the bill for the other games, please let us know who they are, or point them to this thread.
I suppose... In general, I would think that the criterions for such people would be at least to have finished and released 1 large mod (a minimum of 1000+ files then, 2000+ files is better) and that this mod in some form have been released for at least 2 years somehow (whenever this is applicable). You want people who do have a clue about these things and have some solid public experiences as well under their belt. That is at least what I would be looking for if I were in your shoes.
Most of the people that can hope to fit that bill are usually active somehow over at the TWC - some might have accounts here at the ORG as well. You could check your hosted mods for possible candidates - I doubt everyone will be interested, but I think at least some will be willing to do this if asked and treated respectfully. I must admit that my knowledge of stuff for ETW and beyond is extremely limited so I can't help you there even if I wanted too. There are however plenty of promising candidates for both RTW and MTW2 at least. I think the best way to do this is to send an direct (time-limited) invitation to all suitable candidates for the various games. If I have any more ideas and suggestions for you, I'll post it up later...
Would you prefer to have the modding sections as subsections of each game, as they are now, or would you prefer to have modding broken out into its own main index category, with fora for each game under that?
Definitely modding sections as subsections of each game, as they are now - because I think the other alternative would be a disaster.... I have hard time seeing how other modders could disagree with that assessment - after all every mod is directly linked some game-engine(s). If these are the only options here. Not that I have any other ideas or suggestions as I write this.
Also, do you think there would be any value in having a generalized Modding forum that is not game-specific? There has been some thinking amongst the staff that perhaps a non-game-specific modding forum would be useful, as something of a boiler-room for modders across all TW games to post in and share ideas or suggestions. However, as we do not have modders on-staff, we have no objective input as to whether that is a good idea, or just a waste of space.
Ummm... This is not necessarily a bad idea, there are some aspects of modding that are rather universal and where modders can meet across the engine-borders of their games. A "modders-plaza" might be an interesting idea to try out - provided that the modding-sections as subsections of each game are already secured. A place where modders can discuss universal problems with modding and get to better know their counterparts of other engines and maybe socialize somewhat with other modders due to such a space - just as modders in general. As it is, the engine-borders are pretty strong and I fail to see why that has to be that way - as I said there are some things about modding that is more or less universal and it would be wonderful to have a dedicated place where all modders - utterly regardless of engine(s) - can go for such discussions and perhaps ask for input or advice in such matters by other and possibly more experienced modders. The whole public aspect/scene of modding is hardly engine-specific but tends to be rather universal. The idea to also cater to modders as a specific category of "customers" (and not just gamers) is very good on general terms.
What is your ideal organizational structure for modding fora?
It is a good question, I'll have to get back to you on that.
- A
Alright Phill, I'm going to initially refer to some stuff Maltz wrote as he is practically making some of my points for me...
... I understand that staffs are all busy right now with restructuring and other tasks, so I am definitely not asking for an apology. Just suggesting that a small reply like "thank you for the contribution" in a guide thread which has received no response so far would mean a lot to the original poster and could encourage further responses.
And...
... recently I posted some new STW2 single-player guides and started a new campaign story. What does the staff think about this direction? I can still see people viewing the respective forums, but apparently people do not bother to reply. I wonder what keeps people from posting. In other sites I at least get "thank you" notes and some kind of response from the respective admin for a major body of work. What's keeping people and staff away from saying thank you or even use the Thanks icon? Is that because my work is not worth it? I am shamelessly asking the staff to at least make up some response even if you do not read them - not just for my works but also for others', because it really sets an example for regular users to follow.
Now... Let's set that in relation to....
... Adding manpower is the quick and easy(?) way to root out and spotlight as much content as possible. I'm just not convinced this is the right way.
Simply adding more staff takes away the spontanity of the community (say what you will but representing something makes you think twice before saying/posting something). Staff shouldn't be what keeps this forum going, the community is. The staff should be here to support the community.
I’ll be plain. The job of the members here is to generate and contribute content somehow on this site, yours – the content branch - is to see to it that this content gets recognized and receives proper coverage/promotion at various levels so more people get to know about it. That is what you and your branch are supposed to do. That is what this site needs. That is what actually matters here, or so I believe.
Content is material of any kind that can be used seriously by any third party somehow. That is content. That is the stuff that has some sort of value attached to it somehow. Chatter and jokes are not content because it can not be seriously used by any third party. This site is supposed to have a TW-focus. Thus TW-related content take priority. That is what needs promotion, coverage and recognition. That is what you should be focusing on. To do this task properly and seriously, you need manpower. Get that manpower. Once you have that manpower, you assign at least 1 content-branch operative to each and every TW-section – as to ensure that each section is properly covered no matter what, and this constantly and visibly. No TW-section takes priority over another, because this site can not afford such luxuries in order to be competitive (I have already explained why in previous posts).
...
The reality I see is that your branch have already had a fair chance of doing things “your way”, people here have had their chance to get spontaneous like crazy and properly recognize and support stuff posted on this site. This for over a year. It has not happened. Neither has the full functionality of your branch. You still don’t have the manpower you need to cover all TW-sections which strikes me as a priority.... Now, explain to me why it is still warranted somehow continue the current doctrine and practices by content branch? Or why we can somehow still afford to sit and wait for some unlikely and unreliable spontaneity?
To me it is obvious. The content branch must start acting like the failsafe it is supposed to be and get real. As in step in and do the job that needs to be done in order for this site to get a chance of a revival somehow. That means that everything that deserves recognition and coverage gets it – this regardless of how apathetic and incapable members here might be. This means that the people that actually do generate interesting and noteworthy content somehow get recognition and appreciation so they have at least some reason to do it all over again – here. Once your branch is fully operational and each and every TW-section is properly covered at all times you can start worrying about all secondary things. That includes stuff like emancipation etc. Creating new trends and traditions on the board that serves and works beneficially for all – instead of the all too usual apathy. To encourage and support members to do this stuff on their own without direct involvement from staff etc. etc. etc. Because I think you are right in that part at least, emancipation is indeed desirable and it is a worthy goal to strive for here. However, we are not there, we are not even close to that, and we don’t have a strong enough community to even hope for any of that – let alone rely on that. Thus your branch must act decisively and lead by example as to show people how it is supposed to be and what people here should do, and where. In the meantime, the machinery of recognizing and promoting content on the boards must still happen anyways and that is the job of content-branch, a failsafe to kick in whenever and wherever the membership fails. This constantly, seriously and visibly on all TW-sections…
...
Lastly, the front page alone is not enough to do the job, or so I believe. I think we need more places, ways and channels to promote and recognize content somehow on this site. I don’t have any exact suggestions but I think that every TW-section should have its own lesser counterpart to that somehow – which deals exclusively with stuff related to that section. As sort of “note-board” to put up “local” section-notes and -news of interest for that community – a place where members can put up their own notes as well. Basically, something other and additional to the existing front-page.
- A
Peasant Phill
05-21-2012, 12:00
Axalon
I know my response will come over as denying there is a problem. I hope you'll be aware that I do take your comment and suggestions serious. However, you make it seem that CM's just sit back and wait until something is given to us. I'm sure you know this isn't true. Staff has made great efforts to improve the current situaton and still do.
1) I agree with what Maltz says. Recognition is a must. That's the reason behind the Thank-button, the thread rating, ... Expressing my gratitude (compiling guides from posts, putting posts on the Frontpage) is also something I personally do in the sub-fora I visit. I'm sure Maltz can vouch for that. It's also something that has been talked about amongs all staff to systematically take intrest in worthwhile threads.
2) I believe you misudnderstood me when I used the word spontanity. I meant everything a member does out of himself. That can be just jokes but just as much giving helpful advise or writing a guide/mod/...
3) I define content anything that attracts new members and keeps current members around be it guides, mafia games, debates or just mindles chatter. Nevertheless, TW-related content and especially Shogun2 related content has been focussed upon. Guides have been written by staff, nudges have been given towards the community,contests have been organised, members contributions have been highlighted. Though please be aware that it can be be disheartening when your efforts harvest little result.
4) At the moment staff can use the Frontpage, anouncements (on top of the page), notices (hardly used at the moment) and stickying threads. A stickied thread with the most intersting threads is an interesting suggestion though. Can you also explain the reasening behind notes from members?
edyzmedieval
12-31-2012, 05:16
To be honest with all of you, I'm slightly concerned about the lack of activity on the forum. :worried:
And it's not necessarily because people stay away from their computers during holiday time.
Populus Romanus
01-17-2013, 14:54
Am I the only one concerned that CA doesn't even visit these boards anymore? We lose out on a lot of stuff.
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