Things Strike Doesn't Understand About Modern Literature

[Strike For The South]

1. 50 shades of grey. After 100 years of feminism, women prove all they want is to be dominated with some guy with money. The fact that someones fanfiction can turn into a bestseller is side turning

2. Building on my first point, Since when did creepiness replace romance? I mean I'm all for chains, hot wax, and massaing the prostate (male g-spot) but is this really the world you want to lose yourself in?

3. E-readers. If you own one of these the deepest pit of hell has a special place for you (Ohio). When Obama wins re-election and starts burning all the paper, you'll be sorry.

4. Excessively long fantasy books. Those hours spent reading 20,000 pages of George Martin could've been better spent brushing up on economic policy or understanding the root causes of the Napoleonic wars. Dragons aren't real, it's high time adults realzie that

I also can't stand the Minnesota accent. I watched Fargo yesterday and accidentaly shot my television.

[Hooahguy]

4. Excessively long fantasy books. Those hours spent reading 20,000 pages of George Martin could've been better spent brushing up on economic policy or understanding the root causes of the Napoleonic wars. Dragons aren't real, it's high time adults realzie that

Hey, there is nothing wrong wanting to escape this hell we call our world for a few hours a day.

[Strike For The South]

Hey, there is nothing wrong wanting to escape this hell we call our world for a few hours a day.

Yes there is.

[Whacker]

Yes there is.

No there isn't.

[Strike For The South]

No there isn't.

You read fantasy books and you end up thinking mining on asteroids is feaseble, the founding fathers were mouthpeices for equality, and Columbus thought the earth was flat

[Tellos Athenaios]

4. Excessively long fantasy books. Those hours spent reading 20,000 pages of George Martin could've been better spent brushing up on economic policy or understanding the root causes of the Napoleonic wars. Dragons aren't real, it's high time adults realzie that

Reading 20000 pages of pure fiction by Martin is a positively sane choice when the alternative is 20000 pages of spin regurgitated on Fox and MSNBC. Plus, existence of dragons is positively probable by comparison.

[Strike For The South]

Reading 20000 pages of pure fiction by Martin is a positively sane choice when the alternative is 20000 pages of spin regurgitated on Fox and MSNBC. Plus, existence of dragons is positively probable by comparison.

But those are not the only two choices

[Whacker]

You read fantasy books and you end up thinking mining on asteroids is feaseble, the founding fathers were mouthpeices for equality, and Columbus thought the earth was flat

You read only non-fiction and you end up thinking you know more than people with far more education and life experience.

[gaelic cowboy]

Hey Strike can I add a couple to that list of wisdom

2 Things Gaelic Cowboy is willing to put a bet on in Paddy Power that Strike also does not understand about Modern Literature

1: People who think Dan Brown writes non-fiction

2: Anything to do with Abstinace Porn

[Kagemusha]

You read fantasy books and you end up thinking mining on asteroids is feaseble, the founding fathers were mouthpeices for equality, and Columbus thought the earth was flat

Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow-
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

Edgar Allan Poe

[Greyblades]

You read fantasy books and you end up thinking mining on asteroids is feaseble, the founding fathers were mouthpeices for equality, and Columbus thought the earth was flat
...Columbus thought the world was pear shaped.

[Lemur]

Strike, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Fantasy is the default human narrative. Kitchen-sink realism is a relatively recent invention.

Look at the old stories, your Beowulfs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf) and your Gilgameshes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh) and your Iliads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad). They would all be shelved under "fantasy" if Pyr (http://www.pyrsf.com/) put them out tomorrow.

Fantastic literature feeds some sort of primal need in the human psyche. Why get worked up about it?

S&M literature, on the other hand, is a more recent vintage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justine,_or_the_Misfortunes_of_Virtue). As a completely unqualified sociologist and psychologist, I'd suggest the rise in popularity has to do with nervousness about changing gender roles. (I suspect sexual dimorphism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism) plays an unheralded role.)

[a completely inoffensive name]

In this thread...
OP: STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!
Everyone else: What's the problem, it makes me happy.
OP: STOP BEING HAPPY!

[Vladimir]

...Columbus thought the world was pear shaped.

See American is the world!

[Veho Nex]

What about reading 10,000 pages (cause thats what I've read so far by Turtledove) of alternate history such as if the CSA won the war of Secession or if aliens invaded during WW2

[Sir Moody]

Even as someone who's bookcase looks like this


https://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5835/bookcase.th.png (https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/99/bookcase.png/)


I have to admit the latest Game of Thrones is starting to fall into the "Wheel of Time" trap...

The books are getting longer and less and less happens...

[Hooahguy]

I have to admit the latest Game of Thrones is starting to fall into the "Wheel of Time" trap...

The books are getting longer and less and less happens...

Well there's only 2 left, and winter comes in the next one, so that should be interesting.

[Lemur]

5368
Hmmm ... can't access that image, and looking at your coding, there's just the attribute "5368" given. Maybe try again with the [IMG] tag?

[Sir Moody]

that any better?

(also that's not the entire bookcase I have 2 more shelves + another case across the room which includes the entire Discworld series...)

[a completely inoffensive name]

What's wrong with e-readers by the way? I have read more this week than I did in all of Jan/Feb combined. Without it, I never would have read the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes which I am now enjoying since it was free from Amazon (public domain yay!)

[HoreTore]

Strike can pry my iPad from my cold, dead hands.

I love it! Of course, I don't read books on it, but it's wonderful for newspapers I can't get in the mail(like the foreign ones). And of course various .pdf's, which is my main reason for having one.

[Papewaio]

Who was the top recruiter for NASA?

Hint it has to do with fiction.

Fiction including religion is often the vision and mission statement on what we desire or wish to overcome or just plain escapism. Escapism is fine, it's like a reboot/defrag for the mind if used properly. Improperly and you have people turning up to work in star fleet uniform or thinking that they can do less work for equal pay based on each breaks for religious observances.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Those hours spent reading 20,000 pages of George Martin could've been better spent brushing up on economic policy or understanding the root causes of the Napoleonic wars.

And how is that going to improve your life? What makes reading it worthwhile?

[Kralizec]

I can't speak about any of the points Strike mentioned, but I hardly ever read any recent literature. I don't bother even starting with a book unless I'm pretty sure beforehand I'm going to like it. Generally that means classics of 20+ years ago, with sometimes a more recent book that has near universal acclaim.

Well, except maybe point 4. If a (fiction) book is enjoyable and thought provoking, that's a double plus for me. I never really got into the fantasy genre.

[HoreTore]

And how is that going to improve your life? What makes reading it worthwhile?

I'd say both improves your life.

A mind needs something to be occupied with. It needs impulses in order to grow and activate the parts that enables you to ponder and reflect. Reading fantasy novels tickles your brain because it makes you fantazise, dream and generally think in a creative way. Reading about Napoleon or economics may do the same thing, it depends on your personality. Or doing something else of course, if reading a book isn't your thing. The main point is getting that brain working in new ways, how you accomplish that is up to you. And that also means that dragging yourself through a tome you're not interested in at all isn't going to do you much good. You might pick up a fact or two, but in the end it's mostly wasted time.

A tickled brain is a happy brain. A happy brain means a happier life.

[HoreTore]

I can't speak about any of the points Strike mentioned, but I hardly ever read any recent literature. I don't bother even starting with a book unless I'm pretty sure beforehand I'm going to like it. Generally that means classics of 20+ years ago, with sometimes a more recent book that has near universal acclaim.

Well, except maybe point 4. If a (fiction) book is enjoyable and thought provoking, that's a double plus for me. I never really got into the fantasy genre.

Books from the 80's are called "classics" now? Boy, I'm getting old...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Books from the 80's are called "classics" now? Boy, I'm getting old...1982 was thirty years ago. That's why they are classics.

[Kralizec]

Books from the 80's are called "classics" now? Boy, I'm getting old...

I can't think of any example from the 80's right now, but: if a book is considered extraordinarily good and is still widely read after several decades, it's a "classic". Or at least that's the way I used the term when I wrote that.

Also a brief look at your profile tells me that you're about the same age I am, so you're by definition not old.

[Slyspy]

Arguably a history of the Napoleonic wars could quite easily be a work of fiction. All you need to do is change the names! The truth, they say, is stranger than fiction.

[Major Robert Dump]

The only fiction I read is the New York Times

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well there's only 2 left, and winter comes in the next one, so that should be interesting.

Winter is always coming, but you can bet your copper bottom that Martin will have killed off all the interesting characters by then.

Killing Ned off at the end of the first book was one thing, but now he introduces interesting characters just to kill them off, because his plot-essential characters are just ropotic machines following "prophecy".

Jordan did it better, his world had gravity, as in, you can't fire an arrow 700 feet straight up.

[Hooahguy]

Winter is always coming, but you can bet your copper bottom that Martin will have killed off all the interesting characters by then.

Killing Ned off at the end of the first book was one thing, but now he introduces interesting characters just to kill them off, because his plot-essential characters are just ropotic machines following "prophecy".

Jordan did it better, his world had gravity, as in, you can't fire an arrow 700 feet straight up.
Oh dont be such a pessimist.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh dont be such a pessimist.

He's also really transparent, the only "twists" I missed were the really obvious ones I discounted as too bleeding obvious.

In which vein:

All Hail King Jon I, natural son of Prince Rhaegar!

Oh, and I hope Varys marries and has lots of children.

:book2:

[rajpoot]

Some degree of escapism is necessary to survive the dreariness of life. Be it fantasy books, video games, movies or....other stimulants.
And books, at least are the least harmful form of escapism. No damage to the eyes or the liver.



Oh, and I hope Varys marries and has lots of children.

I don't think that's going to happen. Varys is in a long distance relationship with Illyrio. :yes:
Did you not know?

[Greyblades]

He's also really transparent, the only "twists" I missed were the really obvious ones I discounted as too bleeding obvious.

In which vein:

All Hail King Jon I, natural son of Prince Rhaegar!

Oh, and I hope Varys marries and has lots of children.
...You saw the shadow killing renly coming?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

...You saw the shadow killing renly coming?

I forsaw his death by magic before he and his boyfriend ground Stannis into the dirt.

[Greyblades]

Really? I was expecting a regular assassin personally, or that stannis would bug off and then wait until renly had taken kings landing before offing him in the middle of the battle. I did not expect the light based magician would bring out a shadow-baby-thing.

[Sir Moody]

Really? I was expecting a regular assassin personally, or that stannis would bug off and then wait until renly had taken kings landing before offing him in the middle of the battle. I did not expect the light based magician would bring out a shadow-baby-thing.

personally I found the earlier books were much less predictable - Ned losing a couple of feet in height for example and Rob ending up "merged" with his wolf.

The last 2 books have been terrible predictable - maybe its because I know GRRM's style of writing now... or maybe he's losing his grip on the story much like Robert Jordan did - simple spinning his wheels and not getting far...

[Greyblades]

Yeah, I suppose, though the whole bit with Jon getting shanked was surprising, if only for how stupid jon was acting.

[Sir Moody]

The Shanking wasn't surprising at all - you could see it coming from the first quarter of the book - Jon's behaviour on the other hand was only shocking because he was acting completely out of the character established in the previous books... basically he was rail roaded by the Author to justify the shanking...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yeah, I suppose, though the whole bit with Jon getting shanked was surprising, if only for how stupid jon was acting.

Really? That was forshadowed in the previous book.

I really do have problems with his charactarisation, Stannis, for example, is entirely too flat, as is Cirsei, here POV chapters litterally added NOTHING to her character, except for the titbit that she expected to marry Rhaegar - a quick mention of that by Varys, or anyone, would have achieved as much.

Ned was not exactly complex, but in context that was OK because he was likable and you could see that he thought in straight lines, but then what gets him in trouble is that, for the first time EVER, he thinks bendy and it gets him killed.

Ned's character demanded he do the honourable thing and tell Robert the truth, then worry about the bastards, but instead he lied.

Nor is he the only character to die from a moment of Epic Stupid which is also completely out of character.

Jordan did "spin his wheels" for several books, but Knife of Dreams was some of his best writing, which shows it was a lack of focus rather than talent.

Martin may just be rubbish when all it said and done - his writing time is also heinous given the absurdities he leaves in.

[Greyblades]

The Shanking wasn't surprising at all - you could see it coming from the first quarter of the book - Jon's behaviour on the other hand was only shocking because he was acting completely out of the character established in the previous books... basically he was rail roaded by the Author to justify the shanking...


Well it was shocking to me, I didnt think Jon snow was dumb enough to even consider marching south just because ramsay bolton trolled him. Seriously the last straw that turned the nightswatch completely against him really came out of nowhere.

Martin may just be rubbish when all it said and done - his writing time is also heinous given the absurdities he leaves in.
*Gasp* How dare you have a bad opinion on something I like! You should be drowned in jelly you insolent cur! :joker:

[rajpoot]

See how the invisible hand of GRRM reaches out to hijack STFS's thread. :laugh4:
Fantasy fiction is here to stay.

[Beskar]

The biggest problem with GRRM is that he likes to waffle and he likes to waffle a lot. There were chapters you could have simply removed and they would have made zero impact upon the story. Then there instances where there would be a complete minor character and he would give a massive introduction on his background then... that's it, his whole presence in the book was simply blabbering about his lineage.

[rajpoot]

I really do have problems with his charactarisation, Stannis, for example, is entirely too flat, as is Cirsei, here POV chapters litterally added NOTHING to her character, except for the titbit that she expected to marry Rhaegar - a quick mention of that by Varys, or anyone, would have achieved as much.

I always thought that he added the Cersei chapters simply to make the people who hated her feel good after reading about how badly she screwed things up for herself. Specially evident in the most recent chapters.

[The Lurker Below]

Who was the top recruiter for NASA?

Hint it has to do with fiction.

Isaac Asimov?
I have no idea but offer this in hopes that you will provide the correct answer.

As for my e-reader, back off. I must read a lot more than you do, because I have no desire to continue carrying around so many pieces of paper when I can get away with carrying around a little tiny Kindle.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The biggest problem with GRRM is that he likes to waffle and he likes to waffle a lot. There were chapters you could have simply removed and they would have made zero impact upon the story. Then there instances where there would be a complete minor character and he would give a massive introduction on his background then... that's it, his whole presence in the book was simply blabbering about his lineage.

No, that's the second biggest problem.

The biggest problem is that the world makes no logical sense, at all. For starters, the seasons: nice idea but we have heard nothing about a magical or scientific mechanisims which cause it, nor how the people survive the long seasons. This isn't just a problem in Winter, but in Summer also, because many plants need a cylce to both grow and ripen, without seasonal rains and sunshine followed by a winter in which the land lies fallow the crops will fails, and the land itself will die.

Betond this, Martin's concept of warfare and how battle works is deaply flawed, as most clearly shown in the siege of the Wall. The Wall is a 700 feet barrier of sheer ice, it is therefore totally impassable, you cannot scale it, you cannot hit a target atop it and you can't knock it down because the base would need to be SO wide (and we know it is) that causing a structural weakness midway up would simple cause the top to collapse onto the bottom, leaving you a slightly shorter inpenetrable wall.

Martin's complete incomprehension of, well, physics is best shown when men are shot off the Wall using longbows. The maximum range of a longbow is around 200 yards, but the Wall is 230 odd yards straight up with gravity acting on the arrow it is quite impossible for the projectile to reach the top of the wall, and even if it did, it would lack penetrative power.

Also, bolting your greathelm to your gorget is dumb.

As a Norseman - I find the Ironmen both absurd and offensive, we plowed thank you very much.


I always thought that he added the Cersei chapters simply to make the people who hated her feel good after reading about how badly she screwed things up for herself. Specially evident in the most recent chapters.

I haven't read the most recent book, I no longer care for the series but the previous book's POV chapters told me nothing that was not already obvious, POV's from other characters would have been more revealing and added more to the story.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The biggest problem with GRRM is that he likes to waffle and he likes to waffle a lot. There were chapters you could have simply removed and they would have made zero impact upon the story. Then there instances where there would be a complete minor character and he would give a massive introduction on his background then... that's it, his whole presence in the book was simply blabbering about his lineage.

No, that's the second biggest problem.

The biggest problem is that the world makes no logical sense, at all. For starters, the seasons: nice idea but we have heard nothing about a magical or scientific mechanisims which cause it, nor how the people survive the long seasons. This isn't just a problem in Winter, but in Summer also, because many plants need a cylce to both grow and ripen, without seasonal rains and sunshine followed by a winter in which the land lies fallow the crops will fails, and the land itself will die.

Betond this, Martin's concept of warfare and how battle works is deaply flawed, as most clearly shown in the siege of the Wall. The Wall is a 700 feet barrier of sheer ice, it is therefore totally impassable, you cannot scale it, you cannot hit a target atop it and you can't knock it down because the base would need to be SO wide (and we know it is) that causing a structural weakness midway up would simple cause the top to collapse onto the bottom, leaving you a slightly shorter inpenetrable wall.

Martin's complete incomprehension of, well, physics is best shown when men are shot off the Wall using longbows. The maximum range of a longbow is around 200 yards, but the Wall is 230 odd yards straight up with gravity acting on the arrow it is quite impossible for the projectile to reach the top of the wall, and even if it did, it would lack penetrative power.

Also, bolting your greathelm to your gorget is dumb.

As a Norseman - I find the Ironmen both absurd and offensive, we plowed thank you very much.


I always thought that he added the Cersei chapters simply to make the people who hated her feel good after reading about how badly she screwed things up for herself. Specially evident in the most recent chapters.

I haven't read the most recent book, I no longer care for the series but the previous book's POV chapters told me nothing that was not already obvious, POV's from other characters would have been more revealing and added more to the story.

[Greyblades]

Yeesh, you really take things too literally. Really, in a world where dragons the size of double decker bus' can fly on wings that dont have a span of at least two football fields you have to accept that physics really dont work there the way it does here. The ability to stand up to scientific analysis is a sci-fi trait, not fantasy.
I cant really adress the wall bit, beyond the part where they werent trying to scale or knock down the wall but trying to get through the tunnels the nights watch had dug through it.
The arrows I dont mind, there's alot of theories about wind carrying the arrows further, maybe there's a wierd sort of wood, personally I think the only problem with that bit was that GRRM didnt even hand wave it.
Now the bolting of the greathelm, that is indeed dumb.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Complaining about physics in a fantasy world is like getting up in arms about Cortosis (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cortosis) in StarWars, whatever sounds plausible and drives the story forward is fine.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The biggest problem with GRRM is that he likes to waffle and he likes to waffle a lot. There were chapters you could have simply removed and they would have made zero impact upon the story. Then there instances where there would be a complete minor character and he would give a massive introduction on his background then... that's it, his whole presence in the book was simply blabbering about his lineage.


I always thought that he added the Cersei chapters simply to make the people who hated her feel good after reading about how badly she screwed things up for herself. Specially evident in the most recent chapters.


Yeesh, you really take things too literally. Really, in a world where dragons the size of double decker bus' can fly on wings that dont have a span of at least two football fields you have to accept that physics really dont work there the way it does here. The ability to stand up to scientific analysis is a sci-fi trait, not fantasy.
Now the bolting of the greathelm, that is indeed dumb.

No

Fantasy should stand up to "gross" physics, if I drop a rock it should hit the ground, not float off into the distance. In the absense of any evidence/fluff to the contrary the wildlings are using yew longbows with draw weights in the ~120 range and clothyard arrows, Martin has even implied as much. If you want to "do" medieval Europe in fantasy you have to know how it actually works, otherwise you end up doing dumb stuff.

To put it another way, in the Lord of the Rings the walls of Minus Tirith are each 100 feet (33.3 yards) high, and there are seven of them, the Tower of Guard itself is 300 feets (100 yards) high, for a total of 1,000 yards from the valley floor to the top of the tower.

There are other incogruities, such as people drawing greatswords from their backs (a physical impossibility), the same weapons being too big to actually wield (Ice is as wide as a man's hand, that implies the weapon measures 5 inches or more at the base, to broad to use effectively, the weapon is also too large to use effectively from horseback (Tarly's greatsword has this problem also), Jon's Bastard sword, likewise, must be worn at the side in order to be drawn in one motion, but he hatibually wears it on his back.

The breaking of Ice and reforging into two new blades also shows a profound ignorance of the method Martin himself selected for the forging of Valarian steel. The blades have ripples in them because of the latteral folds as the blade is forged, this has been stated by Martin, the folds are therefore integral to the construction, and it would not be possible to create two narrower blades each around 2/3 or slighty less from tang to tip than Ice herself out of the original blade. If Valarian steel is in fact homogenous not only world folding be unnecessary but the ripples would not show in the metal, because they are caused by variable carbon-iron ratios in the metal.

Brienne of Tarth is absurd, Martin frenquently describes her as thick set, hunched of shoulder and excessively broad of hip. Her thick set frame naturally makes her slow, excessive musscle mass may increase power but it reduces speed, and swordcraft requires the latter much more than the former. Her habituale bad posture would cause lactic acid bui8ld up in her shoulders, causing cramp, reducing speed, power and endurance. Finally, her broad hip mean her hip joints are further apart, increasing the turning circle she has to move through, making her footwork slower and, I think reducing the power she recieves from spacing her legs.

Compare this to Skilgannon in White Wolf by David Gemmell, Skilgannon is lean, in impeccable physical condition, regularly exercises to maintain his balance and flexability and is, crucially, long of limb and broad of shoulder.

Skilgannon is a master swordsman, Brienne og Tarth is a joke.

[Greyblades]

Good lord, never give a history professor a fantasy novel. MST3K Mantra. You aren't reading Bernard Cornwell, you really gotta accept Rule of cool with this series.

As for Brienne I agree she's not a master swordsman but I dont think she's a joke, she's a practiced, big bruiser who while she could barely meet Jamie when he was malnourished and severely out of practice, she's still a master compared to, say, a man at arms.

[Centurion1]

phil, lighten up!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Good lord, never give a history professor a fantasy novel. MST3K Mantra. You aren't reading Bernard Cornwell, you really gotta accept Rule of cool with this series.

As for Brienne I agree she's not a master swordsman but I dont think she's a joke, she's a practiced, big bruiser who while she could barely meet Jamie when he was malnourished and severely out of practice, she's still a master compared to, say, a man at arms.

There is no "rule of cool", if the fact that Martin is describing arrows that apparently have jetpacks and Ser Ilyn Payne apparently dislocating his entire arm to draw his greatsword, doesn't bother you, then fine. That doesn't change the fact that for someone who has actually seen swordsmen and archers in real life these physical absurditities are very distracting, in the case of the battle on the Wall they ruined the enjoyment for me because I know it couldn't work like that, and the deaths of the men in the Watch just feel forced and cheap as a result.

As a character, Brienne is not absurd, though I find her too litteral, but that doesn't change the fact that the way Martin describes her fighting doesn't chime with the way he describes her physcially. I'm not asking for the typically willowy swordswoman, a la (say) Tynesia in Shadows of the Apt but I'd find her far more convincing as awarrior if she wasn't made to be hunchbacked and pearshaped, the description also seems excessively cruel.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You read only non-fiction and you end up thinking you know more than people with far more education and life experience.

You will, if their life experience is reading long fantasy books.


1. 50 shades of grey. After 100 years of feminism, women prove all they want is to be dominated with some guy with money. The fact that someones fanfiction can turn into a bestseller is side turning

2. Building on my first point, Since when did creepiness replace romance? I mean I'm all for chains, hot wax, and massaing the prostate (male g-spot) but is this really the world you want to lose yourself in?


No one will read a romance book where the plot is "they met through friends and hung out for a while and then started dating and it worked out great", that's why romances have such wacky plots.



4. Excessively long fantasy books. Those hours spent reading 20,000 pages of George Martin could've been better spent brushing up on economic policy or understanding the root causes of the Napoleonic wars. Dragons aren't real, it's high time adults realzie that

Yes, escapist books are supposed to be for relaxation, being really long defeats the whole point. Same with video games.

[Greyblades]

There is no "rule of cool", if the fact that Martin is describing arrows that apparently have jetpacks and Ser Ilyn Payne apparently dislocating his entire arm to draw his greatsword, doesn't bother you, then fine. That doesn't change the fact that for someone who has actually seen swordsmen and archers in real life these physical absurditities are very distracting, in the case of the battle on the Wall they ruined the enjoyment for me because I know it couldn't work like that, and the deaths of the men in the Watch just feel forced and cheap as a result.
The size of the wall is aprox 700 ft, about 213 meters. According to wikipedia the longbow's range is between 165 to 228 m, also, "a flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400yds" or 365 meters. Now, whether this is the same firing at a high angle at a tall target is unlikely, but by looking at those stats I think there is a fair chance a lightweight arrow could reach the archers on the wall and with a strong southward wind they may even be capable of piercing light chainmail. With enough archers firing I dont find it unlikely the wildlings could have gotten a few lucky killing shots in.

[Papewaio]

Physics eh?

Why do hang gliders jump off cliffs? Because cliffs are perpendicular to land causing the air to push up the cliff face creating an updraft. The wider the cliff and higher it goes in general the stronger the updraft.

I'm pretty sure only one Black Watch died on the top of the wall due to a unlucky arrow being carried up.

Most fiction is wrote at the speed of plot. Not all sci fi stands up to science... Warp speed, lazed swords, lasers beams that slowly track across the screen.

More near future stuff annoys me. Jurassic Park... I looked at how the pens were setup and the lack of redundant systems ie two sets of physical fences. Or the speed of DNA analysis in crime shows.

Anyhow unless it is inconsistent I normally don't get too worried about it.

As for pear shaped and slow ... Ever seen how fast Sumo wrestlers move, pivot and slap?

[Greyblades]

I defer to your superior confidence in your knowledge of physics.

[rajpoot]

Actually it's only hard to draw a greatsword from the back if it is in an actual sheath. I always assumed it was simply strapped on to the back.

[Sir Moody]

Additionally GRRM is only a writer you cannot expect him to be flawless - while I may criticise some of his recent writing I wont criticise the world he has created for being "too unrealistic"

An interesting fact came up in a recent interview with the guys doing the Computer RPG - they regularly talk to GRRM and show him areas in the game to make sure it matches his vision of the area - when they showed him the Wall his first response was "Its too big!", they pointed out they had made it to his specification. GRRM's response was "I've made it too Big!!"

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The size of the wall is aprox 700 ft, about 213 meters. According to wikipedia the longbow's range is between 165 to 228 m, also, "a flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400yds" or 365 meters. Now, whether this is the same firing at a high angle at a tall target is unlikely, but by looking at those stats I think there is a fair chance a lightweight arrow could reach the archers on the wall and with a strong southward wind they may even be capable of piercing light chainmail. With enough archers firing I dont find it unlikely the wildlings could have gotten a few lucky killing shots in.

By "flight arrow" I assume they mean a "normal" arrow, but war arrows are heavier - the modern longbow has a draw weight of probably 60 pounds, but the historical one was double that and was using a comparatively heavy arrow in order to achieve penetrative power.


Physics eh?

Why do hang gliders jump off cliffs? Because cliffs are perpendicular to land causing the air to push up the cliff face creating an updraft. The wider the cliff and higher it goes in general the stronger the updraft.

I'm pretty sure only one Black Watch died on the top of the wall due to a unlucky arrow being carried up.

Most fiction is wrote at the speed of plot. Not all sci fi stands up to science... Warp speed, lazed swords, lasers beams that slowly track across the screen.

More near future stuff annoys me. Jurassic Park... I looked at how the pens were setup and the lack of redundant systems ie two sets of physical fences. Or the speed of DNA analysis in crime shows.

Anyhow unless it is inconsistent I normally don't get too worried about it.

As for pear shaped and slow ... Ever seen how fast Sumo wrestlers move, pivot and slap?

Still not convinced, especially about the Sumo part, what does a Sumo Wrestler look like next to a Saholin monk?

IT's also pretty explicit that the Night's Watch under fire atop the wall, the "fake" Watchemen they put up are full of arrows.


Actually it's only hard to draw a greatsword from the back if it is in an actual sheath. I always assumed it was simply strapped on to the back.

A fair point, but I'm fairly sure that they are "sheathed" and certainly "drawn", even strapped on it's not going to be a single smooth form as with a draw from the side.


Additionally GRRM is only a writer you cannot expect him to be flawless - while I may criticise some of his recent writing I wont criticise the world he has created for being "too unrealistic"

An interesting fact came up in a recent interview with the guys doing the Computer RPG - they regularly talk to GRRM and show him areas in the game to make sure it matches his vision of the area - when they showed him the Wall his first response was "Its too big!", they pointed out they had made it to his specification. GRRM's response was "I've made it too Big!!"

Right, so he made it way too big. The feeds into my argument though, he doesn't have a physical grip on the world he created, and given that I find the characters regularly flat (not all of them, admittedly) I think that's a serious issue.

[Greyblades]

By "flight arrow" I assume they mean a "normal" arrow, but war arrows are heavier - the modern longbow has a draw weight of probably 60 pounds, but the historical one was double that and was using a comparatively heavy arrow in order to achieve penetrative power. True, but from what's seen of the nightswatch's armour in the TV series (as the books mention little about thier armour if I remember correctly), the average builder and steward didnt have much armour beyond leather, fur and the odd chainmail shirt, an arrow even a light one at long range can still probably penetrate such, and even then you do have to take into account the nightswatch's habit of not wearing any head protection beyond the odd leather cap. A lucky shot, even with a slow moving(relatively) light arrow, can still kill a man.

Right, so he made it way too big. The feeds into my argument though, he doesn't have a physical grip on the world he created, and given that I find the characters regularly flat (not all of them, admittedly) I think that's a serious issue. Aye, its an issue but there's still enough good characters to keep me interested. Even if he does insist on killing the villianous characters in rather lacklustre ways (I'm looking at you Joffrey and Tywin!)

[Arjos]

IT's also pretty explicit that the Night's Watch under fire atop the wall, the "fake" Watchemen they put up are full of arrows.

Pretty sure that was during the assault on Castle Black from south of the Wall...
All the fire was at the stairs and towers, way below the top...

As Papewaio pointed out, in the attack from the northern side, arrows barely reached the men and only one managed to kill by happenstance...


forging of Valarian steel. The blades have ripples in them because of the latteral folds as the blade is forged, this has been stated by Martin

He also stated how spells and magic were an integral part of the process...
If you can't accept a "fantasy license", then yes the reforging is bogus :)


the seasons: nice idea but we have heard nothing about a magical or scientific mechanisims which cause it, nor how the people survive the long seasons. This isn't just a problem in Winter, but in Summer also, because many plants need a cylce to both grow and ripen, without seasonal rains and sunshine followed by a winter in which the land lies fallow the crops will fails, and the land itself will die.

In the North there are glass gardens...
By reading how they are preparing for the incoming winter, is apparent that it's more a matter of latitude: for example Essos is able to export great quantities of crops, seems like during winter aswell...
Overall, there are shorter seasons within the "main" ones or phases with precipitations, I think the maesters keep track and inform when to plant or leave the soil to recover...

But really it's fiction :P

[Sir Moody]

The book does mention Night Watch armour in a few places - its mostly ill fitting and old fur and leather with a few exceptions (mostly nobles who brought their own armour when they arrived) - its often described as barely holding together and at several points it is suggested they don't have enough to supply all the watch.

A point on the arrows - the fight was against a disorganised mass of tribesmen - its likely the Wildlings were using the same arrows they would have used in peace time - these were not likely to be War Arrows

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Pretty sure that was during the assault on Castle Black from south of the Wall...
All the fire was at the stairs and towers, way below the top...

As Papewaio pointed out, in the attack from the northern side, arrows barely reached the men and only one managed to kill by happenstance...

I could check the book, but I'm pretty sure they set dummies atop the Wall, and they were full of arrows.


He also stated how spells and magic were an integral part of the process...
If you can't accept a "fantasy license", then yes the reforging is bogus :)

The point is, he's gone, "ooooh this is a cool way to forge a sword..." then just ignored what that means. It isn't a huge issue by itself, but lots of these little issue add up. The kingguard jousting is scale shits is another example, because even a blunt lance could collapse your chest if you aren't wearing a breastplate.


In the North there are glass gardens...
By reading how they are preparing for the incoming winter, is apparent that it's more a matter of latitude: for example Essos is able to export great quantities of crops, seems like during winter aswell...
Overall, there are shorter seasons within the "main" ones or phases with precipitations, I think the maesters keep track and inform when to plant or leave the soil to recover...

But really it's fiction :P

I'm not saying it can't be explained, but there is never any explanation, we know the world works according to scientific laws because the maestors are scientists and they mostly have a grip of things. I'm also not convinced about the "micro" seasons, as, again, that's never said or really implied - I think your mind just rtys to fill the blank.


The book does mention Night Watch armour in a few places - its mostly ill fitting and old fur and leather with a few exceptions (mostly nobles who brought their own armour when they arrived) - its often described as barely holding together and at several points it is suggested they don't have enough to supply all the watch.


A point on the arrows - the fight was against a disorganised mass of tribesmen - its likely the Wildlings were using the same arrows they would have used in peace time - these were not likely to be War Arrows

They most likely are war arrows, the Wildlings are always at war. If they aren't war arrows they aren't likely to penetrate armour at extreme range, given that even a heavy clothyard had trouble historically. I'm also not convinced they don't have enough armour, the Watch are generally described as wearing a "halfhelm" and mail, as well as sometimes a breastplate. How worn down the armour is is open to question, but as soon as they arrived all the new recruits were issued full gear, mail, helm, sword, and they had enough to ruin a mail shirt by cutting it open to fit Sam.

How Sam remains so defiantly fat is another mystery to me.

[Greyblades]

They most likely are war arrows, the Wildlings are always at war. If they aren't war arrows they aren't likely to penetrate armour at extreme range, given that even a heavy clothyard had trouble historically. I'm also not convinced they don't have enough armour, the Watch are generally described as wearing a "halfhelm" and mail, as well as sometimes a breastplate. How worn down the armour is is open to question, but as soon as they arrived all the new recruits were issued full gear, mail, helm, sword, and they had enough to ruin a mail shirt by cutting it open to fit Sam.

How Sam remains so defiantly fat is another mystery to me.

I do believe its because food is one of the only things the nightswatch aren't short on, they do have huge ice storehouses under the wall after all and seeing as sam is a mere steward he's not required to run around regularly enough for major weight loss. Though I would think he'd have lost some pounds after the fist of the first men battle.
As for the arrows I think mance rayder, as an ex nightwatchman, would know that war arrows wouldnt reach the of of the wall so I would be inclined to think that he would order the wildlings to use lighter arrows, presumably they would have a lot of them considering a wildling would have to hunt for food. With a few thousand arrows whistling over the wall and its not hard to believe that the odd arrow would find an unshielded face or neck.

[The Stranger]

You read fantasy books and you end up thinking mining on asteroids is feaseble, the founding fathers were mouthpeices for equality, and Columbus thought the earth was flat

strike hates entertainment...

[Arjos]

I'm not saying it can't be explained, but there is never any explanation ... I think your mind just rtys to fill the blank.

I was recalling events mentioned in the books like the Year of the False Spring or short autumns etc...
How regular and how often they occur, we don't know...

As for the explaination, I read an interview or was an extract on westeros.org, where GRRM said it will be revealed at the end of the story. It must be pretty important to the plot or something...

[Kagemusha]

Talk about offtopic...Philips​, is everything ok? First the kebabs, then the supporting of the other team, now SOIAF. Whats next?

[Beskar]

I believe the world is explained by the presence of two suns. This is why there are seasons within seasons such as summer snows'

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I do believe its because food is one of the only things the nightswatch aren't short on, they do have huge ice storehouses under the wall after all and seeing as sam is a mere steward he's not required to run around regularly enough for major weight loss. Though I would think he'd have lost some pounds after the fist of the first men battle.
As for the arrows I think mance rayder, as an ex nightwatchman, would know that war arrows wouldnt reach the of of the wall so I would be inclined to think that he would order the wildlings to use lighter arrows, presumably they would have a lot of them considering a wildling would have to hunt for food. With a few thousand arrows whistling over the wall and its not hard to believe that the odd arrow would find an unshielded face or neck.

You're stretching to support the points. Mance Rayder would also know the the Watch go armoured and mere hunting arrows would not penetrate at extreme range. As to Sam, even if he bigs out as a Steward, he spent longer as a recruit, being made to run and fight and wear armour. Again, Martin has created a physically absurd charater who, frankly, doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you have to make stretches or justify something you're already on a losing wicket. Look what's being said in this thread, "oh that arrow was caught by an updraft" or "they're only light arrows".

Martin's world doesn't make sense.


I believe the world is explained by the presence of two suns. This is why there are seasons within seasons such as summer snows'

Except that they only have one day-night cycle and the seasons don't appear to be remotely regular, the more likely explanation is that Westeros is in the Northern Hemisphere and the lands of "Everwinter" are polar while "Eversummer" are equitorial and the fluctuations have to do with the stirrings of the others, i.e. magic. I can totally get behind that, just like I can get behind Coldhands retaining his soul because he took his vows before the Old Gods (this begs the question of whether the New Gods actually exist).

The problem is that even taking into account what Arjos says, there don't appear to be yearly "micro seasons", which there should be.

My problem with Martin is not one thing, it's this accumulation of things: the world, the combat, the naff breaking of Ice, the flat secondary characters, the habit of introducing interesting characters and killing them off when he could have introduced them a book earlier and actually written some of those scenes he references...

Above all though, it is the bleeding obvious ending and the feeling that rather than the plot and characters building up to that, they are being whittled away to make space for it.

Example: Ned had to die not just to precipitate a war but because Ned would have taken the North to Deanarys, just like his ancestor took it to Aegon.

[Greyblades]

Ok then rational method. I thought it would be a good idea to read through the battle again, Chapter 64 of storm of swords says:

'The wildling archers shot as they advanced: they would dash forward, stop, loose, then run another ten yards. There were so many that the air was constantly full of arrows, all following woefully short. A waste, Jon thought. Thier want of discipline is showing. The smaller horn-and-wood bows of the free folk were outranged by the great yew longbows of the Night's Watch, and the wildlings were trying to shoot at men several hundred feet above them. "Let them shoot," Jon said. "Wait. Hold." Thier cloaks were flapping behind them. "The wind is in our faces, it will cost us range. Wait."'

So with that we know there was a strong southernly wind on at least the first day costing the nightwatchmen range and presumably giving range to the wildlings, and yet:

'Wildling arrows were striking the wall now, a hundred feet below them.'

There's no mention of a hail of arrows reaching the top just the occasional one or two so presumably through out the entire offensive the majority of arrows fell short. By that point there was only one casualty amoung the watch: Spare Boot's wooden leg.

At chapter 69 as the battle had been ongoing for multiple days with one casualty: Red alyn caught an arrow in his leg and fell off the wall.
Later it said 'From time to time an arrow would sail past overhead, but he had learned to ignore those. The range was long and the angle was bad, the chances of being hit was small.'

With this Martin is aknowledging that it was unlikely to hit anyone on the top of this 200+meter wall.

I read the rest up to the point that thorne took command and there were no other deaths to arrows. So with that the result is one death, one inconvienienced amputee and at most 4 arrows in each hay watchman.

In conclusion I surmise that with Martin saying the majority of arrows falling short, and the ones hiting the top only managing to hit two men and not even killing one from direct damage, the scenario isnt all that Jarring. There were presumably 10's of thousands of arrows shot up by horn-and-wood bows with an aerodynamic advantage and only a handful reached them, which I do believe is in a reasonable amount of flukes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ok then rational method. I thought it would be a good idea to read through the battle again, Chapter 64 of storm of swords says:

'The wildling archers shot as they advanced: they would dash forward, stop, loose, then run another ten yards. There were so many that the air was constantly full of arrows, all following woefully short. A waste, Jon thought. Thier want of discipline is showing. The smaller horn-and-wood bows of the free folk were outranged by the great yew longbows of the Night's Watch, and the wildlings were trying to shoot at men several hundred feet above them. "Let them shoot," Jon said. "Wait. Hold." Thier cloaks were flapping behind them. "The wind is in our faces, it will cost us range. Wait."'

So with that we know there was a strong southernly wind on at least the first day costing the nightwatchmen range and presumably giving range to the wildlings, and yet:

'Wildling arrows were striking the wall now, a hundred feet below them.'

There's no mention of a hail of arrows reaching the top just the occasional one or two so presumably through out the entire offensive the majority of arrows fell short. By that point there was only one casualty amoung the watch: Spare Boot's wooden leg.

At chapter 69 as the battle had been ongoing for multiple days with one casualty: Red alyn caught an arrow in his leg and fell off the wall.
Later it said 'From time to time an arrow would sail past overhead, but he had learned to ignore those. The range was long and the angle was bad, the chances of being hit was small.'

With this Martin is aknowledging that it was unlikely to hit anyone on the top of this 200+meter wall.

I read the rest up to the point that thorne took command and there were no other deaths to arrows. So with that the result is one death, one inconvienienced amputee and at most 4 arrows in each hay watchman.

In conclusion I surmise that with Martin saying the majority of arrows falling short, and the ones hiting the top only managing to hit two men and not even killing one from direct damage, the scenario isnt all that Jarring. There were presumably 10's of thousands of arrows shot up by horn-and-wood bows with an aerodynamic advantage and only a handful reached them, which I do believe is in a reasonable amount of flukes.

The implication is that arrows are sailing over the wall even with these "horn and wood" bows, which Martin identifies as of less power than the Watch's longbows. Assuming Martin is thinking of a simple selfbow/shortbow he's concieving of a weapon with about half to two thirds the power of a longbow, but John seems to think the Watch's bows could reach that distance upwards.

Remember, it's not 210 metres and change, it's that plus the diagonal from however far away from the wall they are. So when're falling short during the advance they're probably shooting from closer to 400 metres upwards. Remember also that a lot of a bow's range comes from loosing the arrow upwards, i.e. it gains it's range from the parabolic trajectory, but when you are shooting at a target very much above you, then you are denied that mechanism to increase your range.

Mount and Blade does a pretty good simulation of this - as the attacker you need to be within ~50 metres to get penetrating hits, and the arrows travel relatively slowly; as the defender you can hit your enemy from much greater range, and your arrows travel to the target faster. On the other hand, it's comparatively easy to range your taget when shooting upwards within that close range but hitting targets below you is harder because you have to calculate the elevation.

So I stand by my point, the top of the Wall is a safe place to be, so much so that the Watch could do the naked conga along it and not have to worry, except about frostbite.

[Greyblades]

Yes I concede that the top of the wall is the safest place they could be besides castle black, but I still think there's some plausability, Martin basically tells us there was little to no chance of getting hit, yet I believe there's always the random chance of an arrow getting lucky enough that it goes over the wall and amoung those there are going to be some who are so lucky they hit something And considering the size of mance's army I think there was ample oppertunity for the miracle shot. As for the velocity, the only case of a kill from it in the chapters is a guy who was unlucky enough to fall off the side of a structure made of ice because of the impact. Seeing as the passage say's Red Alyn was "Caught in the leg" it's unknown if it penetrated his leg or gave it a somewhat hard whack. The real question is, with such odds, why mance bothered to send out archers at all, thought that might be the same reason the wildlings attacked with charriots and mammoths the first time when the only attack point is a tunnel.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes I concede that the top of the wall is the safest place they could be besides castle black, but I still think there's some plausability, Martin basically tells us there was little to no chance of getting hit, yet I believe there's always the random chance of an arrow getting lucky enough that it goes over the wall and amoung those there are going to be some who are so lucky they hit something And considering the size of mance's army I think there was ample oppertunity for the miracle shot. As for the velocity, the only case of a kill from it in the chapters is a guy who was unlucky enough to fall off the side of a structure made of ice because of the impact. Seeing as the passage say's Red Alyn was "Caught in the leg" it's unknown if it penetrated his leg or gave it a somewhat hard whack. The real question is, with such odds, why mance bothered to send out archers at all, thought that might be the same reason the wildlings attacked with charriots and mammoths the first time when the only attack point is a tunnel.

I'm sorry, I don't think there's any chance, all the arrows should hit the wall a hundred feet short at best, I wouldn't even expect them to do half that.

Here's another brain teaser: How can a 14 year old wear full plate as Rob does?

21 is the historic age of majority for a very good reason.

[Kagemusha]

I'm sorry, I don't think there's any chance, all the arrows should hit the wall a hundred feet short at best, I wouldn't even expect them to do half that.

Here's another brain teaser: How can a 14 year old wear full plate as Rob does?

21 is the historic age of majority for a very good reason.

No its not.In majority of cultures including European becoming of age for males has been around 15-16 years, 21 is isolated occurance and to be honest very strange. If you can go to war, vote and drive a automobile, why cant you drink alcohol or go to clubs?

[The Stranger]

hahaha its funny that this thread turned into exactly what Strike didnt want it to turn into, a GRMM fest...

[Monk]

4. Excessively long fantasy books. Those hours spent reading 20,000 pages of George Martin could've been better spent brushing up on economic policy or understanding the root causes of the Napoleonic wars. Dragons aren't real, it's high time adults realzie that

https://i.imgur.com/h6PWp.jpg]

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No its not.In majority of cultures including European becoming of age for males has been around 15-16 years, 21 is isolated occurance and to be honest very strange. If you can go to war, vote and drive a automobile, why cant you drink alcohol or go to clubs?

Yes it is, a very good reason - it has to do with wearing heavy armour.

21 is the historic age of majority in much of Europe because it was the age at which you could fight in war in your own right, instead of by proxy.

[The Stranger]

and it has something to do with your brains...

[Sir Moody]

Yes it is, a very good reason - it has to do with wearing heavy armour.

21 is the historic age of majority in much of Europe because it was the age at which you could fight in war in your own right, instead of by proxy.

nope - historically boys were trained for war as young as 7 as Pages - at around 14 they would become Squires who would fight in battles - at 21 they would become full knights.

There are accounts of Squires being promoted to Knights due to heroism in combat before the age of 21.

Squires would be trained in the same armour as the Knights and would use the armour in combat

you seem to be confusing the use of full plate with the rank of Knight - Knights were not the only ones who would wear it in fact by the late Medieval period even some footmen (low born soldiers) wore full plate

[Greyblades]

I'm sorry, I don't think there's any chance, all the arrows should hit the wall a hundred feet short at best, I wouldn't even expect them to do half that.
Ok, I disagree but I respect that.

Here's another brain teaser: How can a 14 year old wear full plate as Rob does?

21 is the historic age of majority for a very good reason.

Custom made armour, I would expect the king of the north would be able to afford to have armour made specifically for his build and as the commander he probably didnt have to fight as long as the rest of his knights so he didnt get as fatigued.

[rajpoot]

21 is the historic age of majority in much of Europe because it was the age at which you could fight in war in your own right, instead of by proxy.

?!!:inquisitive:

Medieval armies did not have a minimum age requirement. Long as you could fight, nothing else mattered.
And wasn't Richard Lionheart shot by a kid toting a crossbow?

[The Stranger]

ye and what is up with that valerian steel. i smell hax. i mean hes not trying to explain that scientifically i mean whats the logical explanation there... witchcraft? i mean realzzZzzz

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

nope - historically boys were trained for war as young as 7 as Pages - at around 14 they would become Squires who would fight in battles - at 21 they would become full knights.

There are accounts of Squires being promoted to Knights due to heroism in combat before the age of 21.

Squires would be trained in the same armour as the Knights and would use the armour in combat

you seem to be confusing the use of full plate with the rank of Knight - Knights were not the only ones who would wear it in fact by the late Medieval period even some footmen (low born soldiers) wore full plate


Ok, I disagree but I respect that.

Custom made armour, I would expect the king of the north would be able to afford to have armour made specifically for his build and as the commander he probably didnt have to fight as long as the rest of his knights so he didnt get as fatigued.


?!!:inquisitive:

Medieval armies did not have a minimum age requirement. Long as you could fight, nothing else mattered.
And wasn't Richard Lionheart shot by a kid toting a crossbow?

OK guys - come on, Sir Moody has it right but missed the point.

You can't fight a knight until you are 21 because you can't match him in heavy armour, so you can't fight for yourself.

The point is, at 14 Rob is far to young to be able to wear full plate and fight, Sir Loras at 16 likewise. Those painting you see of boy-Kings have them in fake armour much thinner than the real thing - that's fine for Joffrey playing soldier but it would put Rob or Sir Loras in a position to have their chests caved in.

[rajpoot]

Why do you think that a person had to be 21 to wear full plate?!
Granted that some of the suits were prohibitively heavy, but a tough 16-17 year old can carry as much weight as any man.
Furthermore on average full plate suits weighed between 15-25 kgs. Which isn't all that heavy if it's distributed all over your body.

[The Stranger]

but how do you explain the dragons!??!?!!?!?

I think some people missed the tiny fact that the genre is called fantasy. I suggest you start getting some of them sprinkles at the Peter Pan store...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why do you think that a person had to be 21 to wear full plate?!
Granted that some of the suits were prohibitively heavy, but a tough 16-17 year old can carry as much weight as any man.
Furthermore on average full plate suits weighed between 15-25 kgs. Which isn't all that heavy if it's distributed all over your body.

Oh no, it was much heavier than that: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-14203621

You start at 7, and after 14 years you have sufficient condition to fight in the stuff for extended periods. A "tough 16-17 year old" cannot carry as much as a soldier for as long - you only have to look at the soldiers in modern armies, the 18 year old infantrymen are noticably smaller than their NCO's, especially accross the shoulders. It's worth noting that pretty much no one today can fight in full plate effectively for more than about 10-20 minutes tops before they are exhausted, just like there is no Englishman alive able to draw a fullsize warbow.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

but how do you explain the dragons!??!?!!?!?

I think some people missed the tiny fact that the genre is called fantasy. I suggest you start getting some of them sprinkles at the Peter Pan store...

Explain to me how Rob armour is spelled to make it lighter but stronger and I'll happily shut up. As it is, so far as we have been lead to believe, it was made by a mundane smith at Winterfell.

[The Stranger]

i see you still havent been to the peter pan shop...

[Greyblades]

Explain to me how Rob armour is spelled to make it lighter but stronger and I'll happily shut up. As it is, so far as we have been lead to believe, it was made by a mundane smith at Winterfell.

Well I dont think rob has been portrayed as fighting in heavy armour for an extended length of time, I always assumed he spent most of the time sitting on a horse sending out orders and not exherting himself, a 14 year old would probably be able to last for hours in heavy armour if all he did was ride a horse.

[Centurion1]

phillips such nonsense....

im 20 (as of yesterday) and i carry full modern combat kit along with my ruck all the time which in total likely weighs much more than plate armor did. as well armor harness' then were impressive pieces of physics as they distributed weight shockingly well. knights were not the turtles people like to say they were and there are accounts of fully plated knights jumping into their destriers saddles.

as well as a twenty year old i weigh 195 pounds at 6'1'' and can bench 200+ pounds, squat 375 pounds deadlift 300 pounds and hang clean 185 pounds multiple times. so yeah a boy my age is more than capable of having the strength and endurance of a older man. in all honesty i was even bigger in high school when i was 16-17 from football though i had far less endurance. when i was fourteen entering high school i weighed in at 170 pounds and was already 6' and my parents did not allow me to lift weights until i did high school sports.

and then there are 17-18 year olds in western armed forces who are physical specimens and run around the modern battle field in full kit and fight.

the fact you think that men cannot fight until 21 years of age is absurd.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

phillips such nonsense....

im 20 (as of yesterday) and i carry full modern combat kit along with my ruck all the time which in total likely weighs much more than plate armor did. as well armor harness' then were impressive pieces of physics as they distributed weight shockingly well. knights were not the turtles people like to say they were and there are accounts of fully plated knights jumping into their destriers saddles.

as well as a twenty year old i weigh 195 pounds at 6'1'' and can bench 200+ pounds, squat 375 pounds deadlift 300 pounds and hang clean 185 pounds multiple times. so yeah a boy my age is more than capable of having the strength and endurance of a older man. in all honesty i was even bigger in high school when i was 16-17 from football though i had far less endurance. when i was fourteen entering high school i weighed in at 170 pounds and was already 6' and my parents did not allow me to lift weights until i did high school sports.

and then there are 17-18 year olds in western armed forces who are physical specimens and run around the modern battle field in full kit and fight.

the fact you think that men cannot fight until 21 years of age is absurd.


1. You're 20, not 14 - you're also not on a medieval diet. Your gym-prowess is, I assmue, impressive but I honest;y have no idea given I don't do weights - we're talking about carrying upward of 100lb of gear into battle, including all-over body-armour that restricts your breathing, is lined and padded with wool and leather, cooks you, and some of it hangs off your wrists and ankles. Thhen there's the shields, longsword, misericord, personal death-dealing weapon of choice etc..

2. Try reading the link I posted, if you want to ignore my informed opinion.

3. Try being a little more civil.

[Centurion1]

1. You're 20, not 14 - you're also not on a medieval diet. Your gym-prowess is, I assmue, impressive but I honest;y have no idea given I don't do weights - we're talking about carrying upward of 100lb of gear into battle, including all-over body-armour that restricts your breathing, is lined and padded with wool and leather, cooks you, and some of it hangs off your wrists and ankles. Thhen there's the shields, longsword, misericord, personal death-dealing weapon of choice etc..

2. Try reading the link I posted, if you want to ignore my informed opinion.

3. Try being a little more civil.

If by saying Phillips such nonsense is not civil enough for you I think you need to reevaluate some things

As I said when I was fourteen I was already 6' and 170 is pounds so what're ah. And I don't consider my diet likely to be radically different from that of an aristocrat in the medieval times in terms of acquired protein so I consider that point moot. Not to mention in the summer time hitch appears to be the entirety of robs life they fruits and vegetables are more than Plentiful.

As I said modern combat gear is just as heavy and 17 year olds seem more than capable of carrying it on the modern battlefield. I'm not impressed by the knights weights it was as I said magnificently well distributed the harness was not 100 pounds more like 60 and a medieval knight is not sprinting around the battlefield throwing himself up and down. He was mounted on a gigantic warhorse and was charging around.

I read your link I wasn't impressed. I think in your quest to prove me martins ignorance you are either ignoring facts or embellishing some of your own

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If by saying Phillips such nonsense is not civil enough for you I think you need to reevaluate some things

As I said when I was fourteen I was already 6' and 170 is pounds so what're ah. And I don't consider my diet likely to be radically different from that of an aristocrat in the medieval times in terms of acquired protein so I consider that point moot. Not to mention in the summer time hitch appears to be the entirety of robs life they fruits and vegetables are more than Plentiful.

As I said modern combat gear is just as heavy and 17 year olds seem more than capable of carrying it on the modern battlefield. I'm not impressed by the knights weights it was as I said magnificently well distributed the harness was not 100 pounds more like 60 and a medieval knight is not sprinting around the battlefield throwing himself up and down. He was mounted on a gigantic warhorse and was charging around.

I read your link I wasn't impressed. I think in your quest to prove me martins ignorance you are either ignoring facts or embellishing some of your own

There are about 2lb per kilogram, 60lb would be below the weight a medieval knight in full plate had to contend with, and the harness is not "magnificently" well distributed, a lot of it is borne on the lower arms and lower legs, this was such a problem that by the 16th century with the rise of firearms lower leg defences were finally abandoned for knight afoot, added to this is the constrictive nature of the breast/back plate which essentially makes a rigid cage for the chest and limits your ability to draw a deep breath. The entire amount a medieval knight had to carry would be around 100lb, his greatword/halbard and longsword and dagger alone would account for at least 10lb, his battle shield likewise was a heavy piece of kit.

Medieval plate functions differently to modern body armour, it's much more about providing an effective barrier where modern body armour is about absorbing a blow.

Fun fact: They discovered a bodkin arrow will go through kevlar weave just like maile.

By contrast, modern combat gear puts very little if any weight on the limbs and instead distributes it between shoulders and hips, so even if the weight is the same the load-caring equipment you have means you are bearing it differently.

Edit: What is wrong with the link? The Royal Armouries are just that, and they are one of the foremost authorities on medieval arms, the research was conducted by three internationally recognised institutions, what's not to like?

"We found that carrying this kind of load spread across the body requires a lot more energy than carrying the same weight in a backpack,"

[Sasaki Kojiro]

"We found that carrying this kind of load spread across the body requires a lot more energy than carrying the same weight in a backpack,"

That makes sense, having metal on your shins and feet makes it harder to left the leg while having it on your back doesn't really.

[Crazed Rabbit]

From the link -

Fight interpreters from the city's Royal Armouries wore replica armour for walking and running exercises.

The oxygen usage of the interpreters was then measured.

I'm skeptical of these folks. First off, I doubt they were in the same physical shape as medieval warriors.

Secondly, they're using replica armor, not real armor, which likely isn't the same standard.

It's one data point.

Numerous other sources state armor weight was lower (20 kgs) and still easy to move in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour#cite_note-5
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aams/hd_aams.htm#weight_b

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WmFvQAEelM


A "tough 16-17 year old" cannot carry as much as a soldier for as long - you only have to look at the soldiers in modern armies, the 18 year old infantrymen are noticably smaller than their NCO's, especially accross the shoulders.

Um...American high school football players?

To the point - it's a fantasy book. With dragons.

CR

[The Stranger]

That makes sense, having metal on your shins and feet makes it harder to left the leg while having it on your back doesn't really.

but hes on a horse...

[The Stranger]

Um...American high school football players?

To the point - it's a fantasy book. With dragons.

CR

this is the only comment on this page that makes any sense. you guys seem to miss the entire point of story telling...

[a completely inoffensive name]

this is the only comment on this page that makes any sense. you guys seem to miss the entire point of story telling...

NO, HOW CAN ARROW GO OVER WALL? PHYSICS MAN, PHYSICS.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

From the link -


I'm skeptical of these folks. First off, I doubt they were in the same physical shape as medieval warriors.

Secondly, they're using replica armor, not real armor, which likely isn't the same standard.

It's one data point.

Numerous other sources state armor weight was lower (20 kgs) and still easy to move in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour#cite_note-5
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/aams/hd_aams.htm#weight_b

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WmFvQAEelM

You should not be that skeptical: http://www.royalarmouries.org/home

Like I said Royal Armouries, it's on the tin. They have access to the battle and tournament armour of the Kings of England and their families, and unlike previous eras they know the difference between the two. They also have access to the contemporaries manuals. Let me be clear, there is a difference between prohibatively heavy and just "heavy", medieval armour is the latter. I've seen enough men at arms do cartwheels and backflips to know you can move in the stuff, that's not the point. The point is fatigue, the ability to fight and think.

Wiki doesn't mention the weight, and I think your other link is based more on handling existing examples than testing them - want to know how long it takes to make a suit of Armour? Get the Ryal Armourers to make one.




Um...American high school football players?

To the point - it's a fantasy book. With dragons.

CR

...famously lack stamina. Running like that for five minutes is an impressive feet in and of itself, but it's not the same as half an hour of continuous fighting.

[The Stranger]

NO, HOW CAN ARROW GO OVER WALL? PHYSICS MAN, PHYSICS.

Y U NO SAY I READ FYZIKZ BOOK??? Y U NO SAY!!!

[CountArach]

NO, HOW CAN ARROW GO OVER WALL? PHYSICS MAN, PHYSICS.
A wizard did it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A wizard did it.

See, I'd be totally OK with that, it would be lazy but at least you're asking me to suspend my disbelief.

On the other hand, if you don't ask me to suspend my disbelief you better have something to distract me from your lack of a concrete believable world.

[Greyblades]

Dragons, political intrigue, light magic, an amazingly imbred monarchy, direwolves, giants, mammoths and a funny dwarf isn't enough?

[The Stranger]

look its a story, it creates a setting, has a certain athmosphere, and it usually focuses to make its main plot believable or entertaining in a way. how he failed to accurately portray that arrows cannot actually fly up a 700 ft wall and stick into something in our world is irrelevant for the plot, it is irrelevant for the story, and if you fall over that then imo you are nitpicking. and yes after all he's just a human being he does not have knowledge about everything, i doubt that if he realised these things when he was writing he wouldnt have changed it.

and because it is a story and you have a plot which has to be told, therefor sometimes you have to make concessions and if that means that reality will be amongst the casualties then so be it. hence a 14 year old kid can wear full battle armour because it makes for a better story.

[Strike For The South]

as well as a twenty year old i weigh 195 pounds at 6'1'' and can bench 200+ pounds, squat 375 pounds deadlift 300 pounds and hang clean 185 pounds multiple times. .


That's a demerit. Your average strength and your noticeable muscle imbalance scare me.

I have nothing to say about plate armor but do agree that children are frighteningly small

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Dragons, political intrigue, light magic, an amazingly imbred monarchy, direwolves, giants, mammoths and a funny dwarf isn't enough?

I can get that elsewhere, from Robin Hobb, or just straight from the Prof him self.

For me, Martin's lack of grip on the physical world mirrors his lack of grip on the characters.

Example: Caitlin hates John, she has litterally HATED him since he was a baby, a perfectly decent young man, her husband's son and sibling to her own children. Even so, she HATES him, and she has held on to that hatred for 14 years.

I mean, seriously?

Martin seems to write only with regard to his plot, but not even Homer's characters and settings were this arbitary, and the end is entirely predictable!

As I said before, the only times he has tricked me have been when I honestly didn't think he would go there.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have nothing to say about plate armor but do agree that children are frighteningly small

Aren't they?

It's like, if you touch them you might break something.

Anyway:

Things Philipvs hates about modern literature: Lazy derrivative dross.

[Greyblades]

Lazy and deriviative? Maybe, compared to Bernard Cornwell, it's still enjoyable and compared to things like twilight, it's a bloody dictionary. Seriously you've got to cut authors some slack or you end up not enjoying anything.


I mean, seriously?...Mate, real people can be even worse. I dont like it but I find it all too easy to accept.

[Centurion1]

That's a demerit. Your average strength and your noticeable muscle imbalance scare me.

I have nothing to say about plate armor but do agree that children are frighteningly small

those arent absurd weights

[Centurion1]

I can get that elsewhere, from Robin Hobb, or just straight from the Prof him self.

For me, Martin's lack of grip on the physical world mirrors his lack of grip on the characters.

Example: Caitlin hates John, she has litterally HATED him since he was a baby, a perfectly decent young man, her husband's son and sibling to her own children. Even so, she HATES him, and she has held on to that hatred for 14 years.

I mean, seriously?

Martin seems to write only with regard to his plot, but not even Homer's characters and settings were this arbitary, and the end is entirely predictable!

As I said before, the only times he has tricked me have been when I honestly didn't think he would go there.

a astard son of her husand who represents her husbands infidelity to her? not surprising at all. disappointing of the character but not surprising.

[Strike For The South]

those arent absurd weights

I know, I commented as much. Like I said, it's not your frial, twig like, eastern europeany physique that bothers me.

It's the fact you are deadlifting 75 pounds less than you are squatting, that is a noticeable imbalance.

[Tellos Athenaios]

@CR, it's really not about being strong enough to lift 25 or even 50 kg. It's about being strong enough to lift 25 kg, plus buttress the sheer impact of another big guy weighed down with another 25 kg and swinging at you aiming to do serious harm. American football players have it quite easy by comparison.

Hence why fighting sports classify according to weight criteria of the opponents and why as the opponents get heavier it becomes prohibitively more difficult to compete as a light weight. It's not 300 pounds or whatever $impressive of dead weight carefully aligned so it's *easy* to lift as much without breaking, twisting or over-exerting anything. It's that weight and it isn't co-operating and in fact is trying to batter you to death.

Hence why all the "big boy" gym numbers are utterly meaningless and misguided.

Stranger: but horses get killed, too. If you fall off your horse with 25 kg of weight on you whilst people are trying to get a good swing or two at you, things won't be as easy any more.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Lazy and deriviative? Maybe, compared to Bernard Cornwell, it's still enjoyable and compared to things like twilight, it's a bloody dictionary. Seriously you've got to cut authors some slack or you end up not enjoying anything.

...Mate, real people can be even worse. I dont like it but I find it all too easy to accept.


a astard son of her husand who represents her husbands infidelity to her? not surprising at all. disappointing of the character but not surprising.

Someone she's known since she was a baby? When she's not otherwise a heartless bitch?

It's not very convincing really, holding on to that level of hatred in the face of all the evidence would have to be pretty exhausting, and I find it hard to see Ned stayin in love with her.

Again, the problem is that Martin pitches this as "gritty" and "realistic" but it isn't really - it's not as bad as Harry Potter but it's not Tolkien, Cornwall or even Jordan.

The characters and description are at odds with the genre.

[The Stranger]

have you not read cinderella?

but seriously, its not that weird, like said he reminds her of neds infidelity and its just an open wound. she cant forget about it because he is always there and she cant forgive because he is always there. and yes she should not blame him because its not his fault but she does. and its not unrealistic that she does, many people would do that in such or a similar case (think about girlfriend cheating and guy going to beat up the guy she cheated with while he will forgive and stay with his girlfriend...)

[a completely inoffensive name]

Y U NO SAY I READ FYZIKZ BOOK??? Y U NO SAY!!!

HOW CAN YOU GO ABOUT OVER IT WHEN YOU HAVENT EVEN TAKEN WHICH TIME IT IS THUS REQUIRED TO EVEN KNOW ABOUT TALKING?!?!?!?!?


A wizard did it.

AN WIZARD PUT 1200 STONE WORTH OF METALLIC SHIELDING UPON YOUNG MAN!?!?!

[Greyblades]

but seriously, its not that weird, like said he reminds her of neds infidelity and its just an open wound. she cant forget about it because he is always there and she cant forgive because he is always there. and yes she should not blame him because its not his fault but she does. and its not unrealistic that she does, many people would do that in such or a similar case
Also, she's narrowminded and a bit thick.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

have you not read cinderella?

but seriously, its not that weird, like said he reminds her of neds infidelity and its just an open wound. she cant forget about it because he is always there and she cant forgive because he is always there. and yes she should not blame him because its not his fault but she does. and its not unrealistic that she does, many people would do that in such or a similar case (think about girlfriend cheating and guy going to beat up the guy she cheated with while he will forgive and stay with his girlfriend...)

It's not quite the same is it, also, Cinderella is a story to frighten children.


Also, she's narrowminded and a bit thick.

I tend to think so too, "profoundly lacking in judgement" would be a good summation - all Rob's troubles stem from her, including not having John at his side.

The thing is, no one in the books really seems to think so.

Which basically means everyone's a bit thick, or they have "plot blindess" to her failings because if Ned et al. just told her to shut up from book one everyone would have been better off.

[Greyblades]

I tend to think so too, "profoundly lacking in judgement" would be a good summation - all Rob's troubles stem from her, including not having John at his side.Well, not all his problems. *cough*Jeyne Westerling*cough*Theon Greyjoy's betrayal*cough*ignoring his empathic direwolf when it doesn't want to go into a trap*cough*
The thing is, no one in the books really seems to think so. No one on her side anyway, I think littlefinger wouldnt have all but accused tyrion to her if he had a high opinion for her political savy. Tyrion calls her out on it, though she ignored it because she thinks he would have said anything to be let go.
Which basically means everyone's a bit thick, or they have "plot blindess" to her failings because if Ned et al. just told her to shut up from book one everyone would have been better off.
Actually I think I remember afew people got quite peeved off at her for letting Jamie go, if Rob hadnt already been ashamed for his prior stupidity *ahem* he probably wouldnt have been so quick to forgive her.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, not all his problems. *cough*Jeyne Westerling*cough*Theon Greyjoy's betrayal*cough*ignoring his empathic direwolf when it doesn't want to go into a trap*cough*


All of which are a result of Caitlin's poor negotiating skills, I mean, seriously, that has to be the worst bargin EVER!

Jeyne herself was not a bad pick anyway, and her family problems would have resolved themselves with Rob's win.

No, Rob's real problem was Bolton, who had been deliberately whittling away Rob infantry and didn't do the thing Caitlin said he would anyway - hold against Tywin.

The Greatjohn should have commanded the infantry with the Karstark - Bolton should have been always at Rob's side, where he would be most use and best watched. You'll recall that was more or less Rob instinct.

Alternatively, give Karstark the infantry and leave Bolton with him.


No one on her side anyway, I think littlefinger wouldnt have all but accused tyrion to her if he had a high opinion for her political savy. Tyrion calls her out on it, though she ignored it because she thinks he would have said anything to be let go.


Ned bought it too - and it is not against Tyrion's character if you don't know how he feels about his brother.


Actually I think I remember afew people got quite peeved off at her for letting Jamie go, if Rob hadnt already been ashamed for his prior stupidity *ahem* he probably wouldnt have been so quick to forgive her.

The thing I don't get about that is why the prison guard went with it, she's the Queen Mother but so what? Women aren't that important in Martin's universe.

[Greyblades]

All of which are a result of Caitlin's poor negotiating skills, I mean, seriously, that has to be the worst bargin EVER!Theon's betrayal was because of Catlin? :inquisitive:


Jeyne herself was not a bad pick anyway, and her family problems would have resolved themselves with Rob's win.
As a woman? Certainly. As a political asset? Yeesh, it's like rob went out of his way to pick Tywin's most useless bannerman family to shag into. Their castle was a ruin, thier gold mines were empty and there was no blooming way the lannisters were going to let them keep thier lands whether Robb won or not.

No, Rob's real problem was Bolton, who had been deliberately whittling away Rob infantry and didn't do the thing Caitlin said he would anyway - hold against Tywin.


The Greatjohn should have commanded the infantry with the Karstark - Bolton should have been always at Rob's side, where he would be most use and best watched. You'll recall that was more or less Rob instinct.

Alternatively, give Karstark the infantry and leave Bolton with him..
Personally I think Robb should have given bolton more that 2000 men, you've got a guy who's family are known touturers, the head of the household is cut of the same cloth as Tywin lannister and Catiln thought he'd stand and fight in a 15-1 battle?
Ned bought it too - and it is not against Tyrion's character if you don't know how he feels about his brother.
If I remember correctly Ned wasnt on the up and up at that stage. He was still determined not to play politics so his idiocy was more than a lack of sense, sort of. I dont think I understand the Tyrion bit though, what's his brother got to do with Catilin ignoring his protests that she's being foolish?
The thing I don't get about that is why the prison guard went with it, she's the Queen Mother but so what? Women aren't that important in Martin's universe.
Aye but the female characters do thier damndest to make that not so. Also the 7 ft, hulking, woman-knight, sworn to Cat's service probably had something to do with getting the consent of the guard

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Theon's betrayal was because of Catlin? :inquisitive:

Theon's betrayel is not that important in the grand scheme of things - he could have offred her Sansa but aside from that letting Theon go was not that big a loss, he wasn't exactly effective.


As a woman? Certainly. As a political asset? Yeesh, it's like rob went out of his way to pick Tywin's most useless bannerman family to shag into. Their castle was a ruin, thier gold mines were empty and there was no blooming way the lannisters were going to let them keep thier lands whether Robb won or not.

Well, marrying a Frey would have been worse - Jeyne might be useless dynastically (they had a lot of fun in bed though, apparently and that has its own uses for a leader) but being tied to the Freys would have killed Rob sooner or later, as it in fact did.


Personally I think Robb should have given bolton more that 2000 men, you've got a guy who's family are known touturers, the head of the household is cut of the same cloth as Tywin lannister and Catiln thought he'd stand and fight in a 15-1 battle?

He wasn't meant to stand, just distract Tywin until Rob slipped bast him. Rob didn't have enough infantry to be useful until he had the men of the Riverlands with him anyway.


If I remember correctly Ned wasnt on the up and up at that stage. He was still determined not to play politics so his idiocy was more than a lack of sense, sort of. I dont think I understand the Tyrion bit though, what's his brother got to do with Catilin ignoring his protests that she's being foolish?

People think Tyrion doesn't really like his brother, because none of his family seem to like him and everyone sees him as the "Imp", the poisenous little troll. Screwing with his brother by betting against him makes sense in that context.

It's also that people just assume Tyrion is vile and odious that he would have Bran knifed.

[Greyblades]

Theon's betrayel is not that important in the grand scheme of things - he could have offred her Sansa but aside from that letting Theon go was not that big a loss, he wasn't exactly effective.
But his actions caused everyone to think Bran and Rickon were dead and probably was what caused the greyjoys to start attacking the northlands, not to mention sending Theon on a diplomatic mission was just asking for it to go wrong.


Well, marrying a Frey would have been worse - Jeyne might be useless dynastically (they had a lot of fun in bed though, apparently and that has its own uses for a leader) but being tied to the Freys would have killed Rob sooner or later, as it in fact did. Yeah, but he probably would have gotten as much fun with the freys (they werent known for abstinance after all) could be dealt with after the war, robb could wait until old frey was dead and the family devolved into infighting before getting rid of his Frey wife. Though I suppose that would be out of character for Rob to divorce a woman.



He wasn't meant to stand, just distract Tywin until Rob slipped bast him. Rob didn't have enough infantry to be useful until he had the men of the Riverlands with him anyway.
Ah, sorry, the TV series has been on my mind more frequenly than the books recently, I was thinking of the diversion for the battle of riverrun by mistake. Though now that I give it more thought I wonder why rob even gave Roose any troops to begin with, a flayed man banner and a personality that mirror's Tywin's just screams unscrupulous ambition. Still, 14-15 year old and all that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ah, sorry, the TV series has been on my mind more frequenly than the books recently, I was thinking of the diversion for the battle of riverrun by mistake. Though now that I give it more thought I wonder why rob even gave Roose any troops to begin with, a flayed man banner and a personality that mirror's Tywin's just screams unscrupulous ambition. Still, 14-15 year old and all that.

His mum told him to.

As to Theon, that was all Bolton too, remember.

He must be so proud of his little boy.

[The Stranger]

It's not quite the same is it, also, Cinderella is a story to frighten children.



I tend to think so too, "profoundly lacking in judgement" would be a good summation - all Rob's troubles stem from her, including not having John at his side.

The thing is, no one in the books really seems to think so.

Which basically means everyone's a bit thick, or they have "plot blindess" to her failings because if Ned et al. just told her to shut up from book one everyone would have been better off.

not really she negotiated the freys to his side quite well but he went and messed it up.. but ye then she messed it up worse by releasing jamie, which i found annoying but is perfectly understanding from a mothers pov.

anyway where is Strike, im waiting for him to say that the only thing less pointless than adults reading fantasy books is adults discussing fantasy books, so i can nod in approval!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

not really she negotiated the freys to his side quite well but he went and messed it up.. but ye then she messed it up worse by releasing jamie, which i found annoying but is perfectly understanding from a mothers pov.

Only a really stupid mother would think it made sense. Tywin Lannister was never going to kill Sansa or Arya and he would never release them for Jaime.

So....

Beyond that, Caitlin bound Rob and his sisters to Freys in marriage, one might be acceptable but not the other - all your dynastic eggs in one basket?

Um, no.

Frey was unreasonable in the extreme and likely to be treacherous, admittedly if the Tully garrison had not been withdrawn Rob might not have had his unfortunate accident, but even so.

[The Stranger]

cmon... are you that heartless? you would let your own children die possibly (or even remain in captivity with the enemy with the threat of death always present) and not do anything about it when you have a chance, even a remote one to save them?

thats not stupid at all, and i think not only mothers would do it. ok, she is not an ordinary mother she is mother of a king, but she knows that and tried to fight it but then she heard her 2 youngest sons were dead she was just overcome with grief and she did what she did.

im starting to think that something is wrong with you rather than with the characters in grmm :P

(semi-joking...)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

cmon... are you that heartless? you would let your own children die possibly (or even remain in captivity with the enemy with the threat of death always present) and not do anything about it when you have a chance, even a remote one to save them?

thats not stupid at all, and i think not only mothers would do it. ok, she is not an ordinary mother she is mother of a king, but she knows that and tried to fight it but then she heard her 2 youngest sons were dead she was just overcome with grief and she did what she did.

im starting to think that something is wrong with you rather than with the characters in grmm :P

(semi-joking...)

Why would Tywin release Sansa or Arya once he has Jaime back?

He's not going to do it, he'd just laugh at you - that's obvious. The fact is, Martin presents this as a rational choice but if she had thought about it at all she would recognise that Jaime has no way to influence Tywin and Tywin has no reason to make a deal, as he already has what he wants - really obvious.

As to there being something wrong with me - well, probably, but I'm not a heartless bastard - I'm just not that monumentally stupid or uselessly sentimental over great distances.

By the time Jaime reached home Sansa could already be dead, and was in fact already gone.

[The Stranger]

you act like it was a rational descision but it wasnt, it was emotional... imo he doesnt present it as a rational choice at all.. if to try and save the life of your own kid seems uselessly sentimental to me i hope you will never have children or live in a group with other people relying on you.

[Greyblades]

Also, she's ridiculously naiive.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

you act like it was a rational descision but it wasnt, it was emotional... imo he doesnt present it as a rational choice at all.. if to try and save the life of your own kid seems uselessly sentimental to me i hope you will never have children or live in a group with other people relying on you.

I invite you to stick your head in the Bacnroom to see how my own mind works. :bigcry:

[The Stranger]

I invite you to stick your head in the Bacnroom to see how my own mind works. :bigcry:

:P i like you in the backroom haha

i mightve sounded a bit offensive i didnt mean it that way. i just think that how you feel about this matter is not representable for the majority of humanity.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

:P i like you in the backroom haha

i mightve sounded a bit offensive i didnt mean it that way. i just think that how you feel about this matter is not representable for the majority of humanity.

I think if you view my current topic in the Backroom and my berwilderment at people's responses you can see I'm not seeing things through the same lens as everyone else.

Regardless, I still find Caitlin's thinking a bit hard to take, the whole sequence felt a bit forced, contrived so that Jaime could escape and get his own subplot.

[Sir Moody]

Its not that you aren't seeing the world right its that Caitlin didn't see the world right.

Its pretty well set up in the first book - the Starks are living in the past where a Knights word was his bond and the "virtuous" always wins - its a complete fantasy but it completely shaped all of Ned's, Rob's and pre slit throat Caitlin's choices

they all truly didn't believe they would be betrayed - that world maybe existed back during the first civil war (and even that is debatable since it ended with Jaimes betrayal of his oaths) but at this point that just isn't the case - nobody is keeping their word and nobody is safe

the really funny thing about Jaimes character is he goes from being a heartless betrayer to thinking a lot like the Starks... and its going to be interesting to see what post slit throat Caitlin does to him next book...