How did WW2 ground attack aircraft penetrate tanks?

[Sp4]

Talking about aircraft like Hawker Hurricane or IL-2, which were both successful at air-ground attacks against armoured targets and I am wondering how they penetrate tanks with small caliber guns, while even the tanks on the ground with much bigger guns had problems doing that.

I guess it has something to do with being able to attack from above but even then, picking out and aiming at targets was done with the eye and they couldn't have flown much higher than 200-300 meters and their shells can only really hit the tank's armoured parts?

Does it have something to do with the muzzle velocity of the shells?

Thanks in advance.

[CBR]

Tanks were generally taken out by AP bombs or rockets but most ground targets were not tanks but APC's, trucks or fixed positions. The Germans put 37mm AT guns on their Stukas, and even then the German Stuka ace Hans Ulrich Rudel focused on the rear section to hit the engine.

[Jack50]

Yep it was and is amazing isn't it ? You should google 20mm shell to see the size of round that most tankbusters used. It was due to the relatively thin armor on the deck and top of the turret that allowed for penetration. The muzzle velocity on 20mm isn't very fast. But if it penetrated to the engine, which caught fire sometimes it would "cook off" the rounds inside the tank which were normally stored near the rear of the tank. The main purpose was to stop the tanks mobility making it easier to capture or destroy by other troops on the ground. Another good "Tankbuster" that doesn't get much love is the P-39 Aircorbra used by the Russians in WWII which were lend-lease from the USA. Of course the fact that the Russians had a very capable "tankbuster" of their own doesn't help to shed light on these planes. Hope this allows you to dig a little deeper into the how and why. Always favorite subjects for us Orgahs~:grouphug:

[Catiline]

The Hurricane IIDs were equipped with 40mm cannon, which isn't that small caliber. They weren't called flying can openers for nothing.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The Hurricane IIDs were equipped with 40mm cannon, which isn't that small caliber. They weren't called flying can openers for nothing.

This makes me thinking.. is it possible to open cans with 40 mm cannons? :clown:

[Catiline]

Depends if you want to eat what's inside

[Kagemusha]

Like others have said.Because the armour was thinner from above. For example PzKpfw VI Tiger had 100mm at front hull and 120mm at gun mantlet , but only 25mm at turret and hull roof´s.

[ReluctantSamurai]

IMHO, the effects of ground attack aircraft at destroying armor is greatly exaggerated. Here's a brief discussion about the amount of ammunition and sorties required to destroy various targets:

http://panzercentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=36353

I also have somewhere an investigation into the effect of Allied airpower in turning back the German counterattack at Mortain in Normandy. I'll try to dig up the report which found Allied pilots claims to be in excess of the actual number of German tanks involved ;-)

Found it:

http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/rocket.txt

And this one:

http://home.swipnet.se/normandy/articles/airpower.html

And the entire PDF that everyone preceding uses as a source:

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk2/tape17/PQDD_0013/MQ33804.pdf

And finally, a very lengthy discussion by some well-known names in the military history community:

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000010.html

[Fisherking]

Most of the Allied ground attack machines used 40 mm rockets. 20 mm. guns might have had a chance with a lucky hit.

The Germans had 37mm mounted on some planes and 30mm on others used for tank killing.

The P-39 also had a 37mm cannon in the prop hub which made it good for ground attack.

There were a few craft that mounted heavier guns but they didn’t do as well. They were rather clumsy in flight and aiming was difficult.

[jackfruitguy69]

what about the il-2?

[Fisherking]

Individually the Il-2s may be over rated. The Russian tactics were the key to armor destruction.

They attacked in groups of about 12 aircraft in echelon at a single target or group of targets. 23mm or 37mm cannon and their shaped charge bomblets were hell on tanks. That was about from 1943 on.

[lars573]

Most of the Allied ground attack machines used 40 mm rockets. 20 mm. guns might have had a chance with a lucky hit.

The Germans had 37mm mounted on some planes and 30mm on others used for tank killing.

The P-39 also had a 37mm cannon in the prop hub which made it good for ground attack.

There were a few craft that mounted heavier guns but they didn’t do as well. They were rather clumsy in flight and aiming was difficult.
The allies (British) had a retrofitted light bomber with a 57mm gun in it. The Germans had a similar one with a 75mm gun. The Henschel Hs 129 B-3, had a semi auto pak 40.

[Fisherking]

Right!

Now, What could have been the best ground attack aircraft of the war…if only: http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=706

[fenir]

How did WW2 Aircraft open tanks, well the easy and honest answer is, they didn't.

Very hard for low flying aircraft to "open up a tank / panzer". Travelling at over 300mph under 3000ft you dont have much time to acquire confirm, aim and fire.
But Bombs were the main weapon to start with. A close 500lb (20-30metre) bomb will blow a tiger II over. And if you dont have time or ability to recover it, you blow it yourself. The actual cause of most tank deaths.
Keep in mind, even this isn't absolute. Soft ground absorbs bomb impact, et cetera...

Next came the British 40mm Hurricane armed fighter-bombers. The British needed a fighter-bomber with a solid airframe capable of carrying low level air power to the enemy.
Being lots of Hurri's which by 1941 were well outclassed in air combat, it was supposed to be replaced by the Hawker Typhoon 1a, but delays due to the 2640hp(?) engine cooling, required hurricanes hanging on until the typhoon IIb replacements started in june / july 1942.

If you didn't know, the Hurricane and Wellington used similar airframe construction. And both could absorb huge amounts of damage, more so than any other aircraft. Hence the choice to use it as a low level attack aircraft.

So they stuck two under slung 40mm cannons with explosive AP shells. It was the most successful western "can opener" until the typhoon IIb acquired combat mass in 1943. Not just this variant of the Hurricane, but Hurricanes in general. So successful was it, the Germans put two 37mm cannons on Ju87's. They didn't do very well.
Next, Henschel Hs 129 with a single pak40/3 75mm auto cannon with 3/4 rounds. Great when it hit, the less said the better of those resource wastage.
They were not alone in this, the british wasted time on mounting a 6pdr ATG on a few aircraft as well, ie: Beaufighter; certainly not a success.

On the eastern front it was the II-2. But it's effectiness imho was disgusting, losses of aircraft to target destruction mirrored in the west would have someone shot.
Best axis killer of course, Ju-87.

As discribed in the training for Hurricane tank busters, you attack from a +30 degree high angle and aim for the turret. Ideal is to walk the rounds in from the engine.
As better shells became available, attacking low on the sides was also an option until the advent of side stand off plates.
Tracking was the main objective, offically. As this was a lot easier to achieve than killing a tank all together.

The final and arguably the most successful. Rocket armed Typhoons Mosquitos' and Beaufighters. If they hit from the top, or the sides / rear, the panzer died. But you fired all 8-12 rockets at once, @ 60lbs a pop, 3in rocket. They also had 0.5in, 20mm and sometimes 40mm cannons, as well as bombs.
In ground attack / Close support / and tactical strikes, these three aircraft in the 2nd half of ww2, accounted for more than any other aircraft in similar roles within the threates they operated in. In most cases RAF units attacked hard units, and USAF attacked soft units. So it's hard to compare, even this has a proviso.

The greatest killer, of espeically axis western armour 44-45, was Rockets. Not so much on the panzers themselves, but the effect on the support units. And espeically exposed infantry. Without infantry, tanks are easy meat for anything.
Rockets didn't always kill, because they didn't always hit, but they did often it was the simple fact of damaging their ability to continue making the crew destory them.

Proviso:
Do not go off half-cocked thinking air power killed them good. That would be wrong.
Most tanks were "knocked out" by air power, not killed.
As I stated above, close by 500lb bomb will blow any ww2 era tank on it's butt. Or get them stuck in a 20meter hole. Or concussion kill it's crew. But not always kill the tank.
A tank stuck in a hole, has no way to get out. Another tank won't have the power to pull it out. And steel towing cables are a luxury in war. So you blow you tank to stop someone using it against you.


The most successful tank killer of WW2? Strategic bombing. Made them run out of fuel.

1st Attack the support units.
2nd Infantry
3rd ATG's / Artillery.


Sincerely

fenir