Historical Battle Re-Enactment Revival

[gamegeek2]

This was a ton of fun last time we did it and it made for some nice videos. Let's do some more!



-Each team would have a "captain" who would act as the general present at the battle. This member is the only one capable of ordering the entire team through team chat. The others have to remain silent and "follow orders" although they would certainly not have to and could act on their own even disregarding their own general if they see fit! If the general dies during battle, the captain could no longer give orders and all will have to work independently of one another with not team chat coordination
-The divisions of players armies would vary depending on the battle chosen. Some might command the majority of the cavalry, others perhaps a wing. Each army would not be made equal as well, so selecting which army component each teammate would get would be of utmost importance.
-The battles would not necessarily be 100% balanced but no Thermopylae style battles for example. Each side would certainly have a good chance at victory. Some liberties may be taken in terms of troop numbers present to ensure this is the case.
-While terrain often played major roles in these battles, it is important to note that most EB maps are not well suited for even battles and that usage of typical maps such as Grassy Flatland or Pripyet Marshes may be unavoidable in order to ensure no clear advantages or disadvantages.


List of possible battles:

-Ipsus
-Magnesia
-Cynoscephalae
-Raphia
-Arausio
-Carrhae
-Ausculum
-Beneventum
-Zama
-Panion
-Bibracte
-Vosges
-Tigranocerta
-Chaeronea
-Gabiene
-Paraitacene

Arausio Armies

ROMANI

Gnaeus Mallius Maximus

1 Eqvites Consvlares
1 Eqvites Romani (Polybian)
1 Eqvites Campanici
2 Velites
1 Aichmetai Leukanoi
4 Hastati (Polybian)
2 Hastati Samnitici
4 Principes (Polybian)
2 Pezoi Brettioi
2 Pedites Extraordinarii

Allied Mallius

1 Eqvites Romani (Polybian) (General) (1 exp)
1 Curepos

Quintus Servilius Caepio

1 Eqvites Consvlares
1 Eqvites Romani (Polybian)
1 Liguriae Epos
2 Velites
1 Aichmetai Leukanoi
4 Hastati (Polybian)
2 Hastati Samnitici
4 Principes (Polybian)
2 Pezoi Brettioi
2 Pedites Extraordinarii

Allied Caepio

1 Eqvites Romani (Polybian) (General) (1 exp)

CIMBRI

Boiorix - Sweboz

1 Xosenthozez Xazdadoi
1 Xosenthozez Marxoreidondijoi
2 Reidonez
3 Jugundiz
4 Gaisofulxo Frijod
4 Dugundiz
2 Xerunoudozez
2 Druxtiz Goudiska
1 Skeutjonez

Teutobod - Sweboz

1 Xosenthozez Xazdadoi
2 Reidonez
3 Jugundiz
4 Gaisofulxo Frijod
4 Dugundiz
2 Xerunoudozez
2 Druxtiz Goudiska
2 Sloxonez

Celtic tribes from Germania - Arverni

1 Brihentin
2 Leuce Epos

Celtic tribes from Germania - Arverni

1 Marxolitho Wolxiskod
2 Leuce Epos

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Ipsos would be awesome but 1 big problem. Its not really in our time frame.
We have an allied army of Cassander (Makedonika) Seleucus (AS) and Lysimachos (Thrace = Makedonika again I suppose) against Antigonus (?)

What faction would be used for the Antigonids? Maybe Epirus for the Elephants? I have not looked into army comps for that battle so I'm not sure what types of auxiliaries would be present but it seems we are running low on successor factions in game.

I'd vote either Zama or Arausio. Also this is inspiring me to try to get a vid up of Raphia again. Hopefully I can increase the frame rate to something acceptable.

[Arjos]

Arausio and Pydna have the rosters already done somewhere in the older thread :)

Any is fine for me, I gotta stop playing CK2 lol

[The Celtic Viking]

Arausio and Pydna have the rosters already done somewhere in the older thread :)

Any is fine for me, I gotta stop playing CK2 lol

And I NHL 12. Seriously, that game is addictive to me. :sweatdrop:

I vote for Arausio.

[Yavana]

i like this!

[Lazy O]

Arausio

[Yavana]

Ok, I agree for Arausio.

[vartan]

I fully endorse this madness. :2thumbsup:

[Lazy O]

The founder hath spoken .

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Would we want to try to attach a date and approximate time to this event? I'm not sure if people are busy with school or other games (apparently :clown:) but it would be nice to use this battle to get the summer swing of EBO back into effect.

[Lazy O]

Any day after the 16th is fine for me .

[gamegeek2]

OK, and can we also do a real re-enactment of a battle? That way we can have someone create an actual movie of the battle and we can have an official EB historical battle video! (We could conscript vartan for his movie editing skills or I could try to learn).

I'll post my army suggestions for Arausio in the OP, as of right now they are not finished

[Arjos]

Good idea for the Leukanoi (forgot about them last time :P), but the reformed heavy cavalry imo it's too early, could accept them as wealthy Uolkai and other danubian Keltoi though, but such addition, should cut down the Brihentin...
The "local" assistance was from recently settled tribes in the Alps, kinsmen to eastern germanics; they would have nobility fighting as heavy infantry rather than cavalry...

The bulk of the cavalry should come from Bohemia and the Danube basin, but shouldn't be too wealthy: the Bouiroi did repel the Cimbri and partially absorbed them (employing them against the Skordiskoi)...

[-Stormrage-]

Good idea for the Leukanoi (forgot about them last time :P), but the reformed heavy cavalry imo it's too early, could accept them as wealthy Uolkai and other danubian Keltoi though, but such addition, should cut down the Brihentin...
The "local" assistance was from recently settled tribes in the Alps, kinsmen to eastern germanics; they would have nobility fighting as heavy infantry rather than cavalry...

The bulk of the cavalry should come from Bohemia and the Danube basin, but shouldn't be too wealthy: the Bouiroi did repel the Cimbri and partially absorbed them (employing them against the Skordiskoi)...

huuh? you guys have way to much time on your hands.

[Arjos]

Lovely...

Another thing I overlooked, this was after the Lex Militaris, so we might actually put only principes as roman infantry...
On the same note, imo you've put too many triarii, polybian ones already were halved, but by the late 2nd century BC there wasn't much difference in equipment, rather only in names...
As for the "personal guards", extraordinarii are fine (standing in for the elite consular entourage), but I'm not convinced by the milites: first both units together make a far too big number for such an elite force; second Samnites had quite a rough history by then, as relations with Roma, last thing I'd expect from any senator, would be to surround himself with highly rebellious soldiers...
The hastati samnitici are fine representing any latin, sabellian, italic community...

[gamegeek2]

Good idea for the Leukanoi (forgot about them last time :P), but the reformed heavy cavalry imo it's too early, could accept them as wealthy Uolkai and other danubian Keltoi though, but such addition, should cut down the Brihentin...
The "local" assistance was from recently settled tribes in the Alps, kinsmen to eastern germanics; they would have nobility fighting as heavy infantry rather than cavalry...

The bulk of the cavalry should come from Bohemia and the Danube basin, but shouldn't be too wealthy: the Bouiroi did repel the Cimbri and partially absorbed them (employing them against the Skordiskoi)...

And from whence was this idea, that "reformed" heavy cavalry (a misleading term in itself) are not suitable to this context, spawned? It's notable that the Jutland Peninsula was one of the most Celticized parts of all of North Germania and that cavalry traditions were quite strong there.

How the heck would tribes in the Alps be kin to Eastern Germanic peoples? At this time the Eastern Germanic peoples lived in what is now Scandinavia and on the island of Gotland. Besides, any proper kin to Eastern Germanic folk would have their nobility armed as mainly heavy horse, as this was one of the famed traditions of the Goths. But since they aren't east Germanic, your point may have some validity.

[Arjos]

And from whence was this idea, that "reformed" heavy cavalry (a misleading term in itself)

Just used it, because it's from the EB reform for the Swebozez...


How the heck would tribes in the Alps be kin to Eastern Germanic peoples?

By eastern I meant Prussia, Poland, Pomerania, etc those areas...
Baltic was the proper term I should've used, sorry :P


Besides, any proper kin to Eastern Germanic folk would have their nobility armed as mainly heavy horse, as this was one of the famed traditions of the Goths.

That's actually only after they got in contact with the Sauromatae...

[Vlixes]

Verstehen Sie Deutsch?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9XKqwQj2C0

[Arjos]

This is my revised one:

Romani

Gnaeus Mallius Maximus (farther roman force)

1 Eqvites Consvlares (general unit)
1 polybian Eqvites Romani
1 Curepos
2 Velites
2 Aichmetai Leukanoi
2 Hastati Samnitici
5 polybian Principes
2 Pezoi Brettioi
1 polybian Triarii
2 Gaemile Liguriae
1 Pedites Extraordinarii

Allied Mallius (farther roman force)

1 Liguriae Epos
1 Toxotai
1 Accensi
2 Velites
2 Aichmetai Leukanoi
2 Hastati Samnitici
5 polybian Principes
2 Pezoi Brettioi
1 polybian Triarii (general unit)
1 Gaemile Liguriae
1 Iphikratous Hoplitai

Quintus Servilius Caepio (hither roman force)

1 Eqvites Consvlares (general unit)
1 polybian Eqvites Romani
1 Curepos
2 Velites
2 Aichmetai Leukanoi
2 Hastati Samnitici
5 polybian Principes
2 Pezoi Brettioi
1 polybian Triarii
2 Gaemile Liguriae
1 Pedites Extraordinarii

Allied Caepio (hither roman force)

1 Liguriae Epos
1 Toxotai
1 Accensi
2 Velites
2 Aichmetai Leukanoi
2 Hastati Samnitici
5 polybian Principes
2 Pezoi Brettioi
1 polybian Triarii (general unit)
1 Gaemile Liguriae
1 Iphikratous Hoplitai

Swebozez

Tigurini - Arverni (left)

1 Mori Gaesum (general unit)
4 Gaeroas (1 chevron)
4 Gaisolitho Aljod (1 chevron)
2 Botroas (1 chevron)
4 Teceitos
1 Brihentin
2 Leuce Epos
1 Sotaroas
1 Iaosatae

Boiorix (center left)

1 Xosenthōzez Xazdādoi (general unit)
1 Dreugolōzez Brunjādoi
1 Xerunoudōzez
4 Dugundiz
4 Druxtiz Goudiskā (1 chevron)
2 Jugundiz (1 chevron)
2 Sloxonez (1 chevron)
1 Marxolitho Wolxiskod
2 Reidonez
1 Skudjonez
1 Iaosatae

Theudobod (center right)

1 Xosenthōzez Xazdādoi (general unit)
1 Dreugolōzez Brunjādoi
1 Xerunoudōzez
4 Dugundiz
4 Druxtiz Goudiskā (1 chevron)
2 Jugundiz (1 chevron)
2 Sloxonez (1 chevron)
1 Marxolitho Wolxiskod
2 Reidonez
1 Skudjonez
1 Iaosatae

Ambrones (right)

1 Xosenthōzez Xazdādoi (general unit)
2 Xerunoudōzez
3 Dugundiz
3 Gaisolitho Aljod (1 chevron)
3 Gaisofulxo Frijod (1 chevron)
2 Jugundiz (1 chevron)
2 Sloxonez (1 chevron)
2 Reidonez
1 Skudjonez
1 Iaosatae

Each tribe represent the leadership in the major components of the migration, but their armies are composed by all the communities who could and were present at the battle...

[vartan]

OK, and can we also do a real re-enactment of a battle? That way we can have someone create an actual movie of the battle and we can have an official EB historical battle video! (We could conscript vartan for his movie editing skills or I could try to learn).

I'll post my army suggestions for Arausio in the OP, as of right now they are not finished

What do you mean "real" reenactment? Isn't that what you guys have been doing with the previous HBs? Meaning you have been playing them such that the maneuvers and eventually results were as near to actual events as you could have? Or did you guys play to see which team won fair and square?

[Arjos]

What do you mean "real" reenactment? Isn't that what you guys have been doing with the previous HBs? Meaning you have been playing them such that the maneuvers and eventually results were as near to actual events as you could have? Or did you guys play to see which team won fair and square?

We started with the same deployment, generals and compositions, but then let the players have a free hand on the tactical manouvers...
Magnesia ended up being quite similar to the real one though :P

[Arjos]

BTW found this to further the Ambrones - Worgōzez choice:


Ambrones praedationibus se suosque alere coeperunt ... ex quo tractum est, ut turpis vitae homines Ambrones dicerentur.

Basically they were such plunderers and robbers that their name started to be used to define those actions...
They were as so called "men of a bad life"...

[gamegeek2]

Why does this further the choice of heath-dwelling savages as "leaders" of a war-band of 10,000? If anything such men are less prone to plunder as they would generally disregard material wealth except for weapons. Professional warriors on the other hand thrived off plunder, and would re-equip themselves with its riches. The leaders of warbands were charismatic chiefs surrounded by professional retainers. Think the Saxons surrounded by their Heorthegeneatas and Housecarls, or a Slavic lord and his Druzhina.

[Arjos]

But they were following the Cimbri and the Teutones in the first place...
They are described as a smaller, highly aggressive group, migrating along the major tribes and then are described as plunderers above anything else...

What makes them so wealthy or able to secure resources, when they lived without any particular geographical isolation and heavily outnumbered by other tribes?
Plus the 30.000 mentioned are the whole combatants of the tribe, surely the "leading" band would have been way smaller than a third...
I can't see how they could have afforded such equipment, nor in such numbers...

Anyway what's "savage" about the Worgōzez? They are making do with what they can get their hands on, just like the Ambrones would have...
Does their condition makes them less accustomed to warfare than professionals? It's not like they are working the land most of the time, if anything they might have been engaged in military operations even more often...


Professional warriors on the other hand thrived off plunder, and would re-equip themselves with its riches.

And what puts them outside that category? As I said in hama, due to the unit variety we have, do not consider them as outcasts, but simply warriors with less "state" resources...
Aggressiveness and guerrilla tactics most likely were the only way for a relatively smaller community to retain their identity...

[gamegeek2]

The forests of Germania, dense and expansive are home to all sorts of wild and dangerous beasts, including those of the human variety. Wargōzez, whose name can also mean "Wolves," or "Outlaws" are predatory Indo-European warriors who are outcasts from regular society sometimes as exiles and criminals, sometimes by choice, and oftentimes young men seeking to prove themselves in accordance to extremely ancient customs. These men live deep within the woods that shield and blanket Germania, an ideal enviroment for hiding and preserving all sorts of ancient traditions, untainted by external forces and influences now becoming more and more commonplace in Germania via trade and military expansion. They fend for themselves in this harsh and unforgiving enviroment much in the same way as the wild beasts, so feared and respected they are sometimes emulated throughout Germania and indeed Europe as a whole.

They use equipment and tools that will understandably become more and more makeshift as time goes on as the more common utensils from societies left behind begin to fade, wear and break. These men look after themselves, living out a true and ancient ideal of self sufficency and independance seen throughout the Ancient world and likely drawing its origins from a Proto-IndoEuropean tradition and possibly even prehistoric, pre-IndoEuropean traditions.

Living in small groups made up of individuals from all over the class spectrum, for all sorts of reasons, these young men will have spent many years surviving in the wilderness and will have as a consequence become very vicious, efficient and arguably quite mentally ill due to their isolation from regular society. What sets these men apart from other wild men who undoubtably existed in Europe for a very long time, is their use of wolf symbolism.

The wolf is a proud, vicious and cunning pack hunter animal, an expert at survival, whose striking aesthetic and haunting howls will have understandably captured the imagination of man since the moment they encountered the beast for the first time. So it is no surprise that over time perhaps through superstition, perhaps through an understanding of the power of psychology on the battlefield or perhaps for simple camoflage and practicality, that men would don the skins of wolves and attempt to emulate these fierce beasts on the battlefield, altering their aesthetic and also their mental state to give themselves an edge in combat.These packs of man-wolves are outrageously vicious and aggressive in combat, stalking their prey through the trees and tall grass before choosing to make their attack, howling and roaring as they make their presence known on the battlefield. They swiftly charge towards their enemies with their weapons trained on their opponents faces, necks and limbs, perhaps after hurling a devestating volley of javelins whose accuracy will have become impeccable from years of hunting to survive. After combat the more peculiar and perhaps disturbing habits of these men can be witnessed in the drinking of the blood of enemies, perhaps even their own blood, possibly cannibalism, self mutilation, and of course: howling.

It is not surprising to learn that these very ancient style warriors will have gained the attention and respect of wealthy Germanic lords, and later on Roman Emperors (such as Trajan) who would seek to hire and use these men to fight their enemies and expand their territories.

Of course, it comes at a price, such individualisitc warriors will not work for just anyone, they will expect good pay and one will have to venture deep into the forests of Germania to find them, risking ambushes from all sorts of potential enemies as one travels, however, once located and hired, these terrifying mercenaries could be exactly what an ambitious Emperor, King or Warlord requires in order to successfully expand his or her borders or defeat his or her foes

Now, would this be a group of leaders? More like a group of wild mercenary savages. And by the way the term "state resources" makes no sense in this context. Soldiers were equipped by the chief that they served and/or themselves. These Worgozez have no leader and answer to nobody except those who pay them enough. A migrating army probably won't be wasting its resources buying mercenaries...

[Arjos]

Why do you keep going there? (By that logic, all the southern italic units are out of the question, because they sided with Hannibal and lost their status)
Take them for their skills and equipment...

And really have you read it or just stopped at wild mercenaries?


They use equipment and tools that will understandably become more and more makeshift as time goes on as the more common utensils from societies left behind begin to fade, wear and break. These men look after themselves, living out a true and ancient ideal of self sufficency and independance

Doesn't sound like: "would re-equip themselves with its riches." now does it? XD

If you can't see this unit depicts exactly that kind of people the Ambrones were: small community without (or unable to control) resources large enough to sustain them, resorting to looting and despite following a larger migrating band, they often went on their own initiative; then kindly point to a better one...

You would have them all armour clad? That's even worse!
Because let's not forget, as of Arausio, they just crossed into Gallia for the first time: they couldn't have gained much loot or weapons at that time...


Now, would this be a group of leaders? More like a group of wild mercenary savages.

And them being the few daring ones, with local support among the Ambrones for their personal enterprises is impossible?
It's not like they were respected by the whole migration, just the Ambrones...
I said that they have other ethnes in the same army, because we have 20 units limit...


by the way the term "state resources" makes no sense in this context.

How would you describe the materials and wealth that a polity had at its disposal?


These Worgozez have no leader and answer to nobody except those who pay them enough. A migrating army probably won't be wasting its resources buying mercenaries...

Of course they won't hire them, but in this case they were migrating aswell, of their own choice!

[gamegeek2]

You would have them all armour clad? That's even worse!


Neither would I have the Brihentin or Arjos all clad in mail but this is a consequence of EB's deliberate policy to represent each unit as its most armoured version reasonably possible.


How would you describe the materials and wealth that a polity had at its disposal?

That's the problem with your thought process here, none of these armies were state-organized. There were three main types of soldier among the Germani at the time:

1. The Common Levy. This was composed of all able-bodied men who were upstanding citizens/tribesmen. Each of these men would own a spear (likely several) as a sign of his citizenship, and would carry a shield for personal defense. These were legally bound by custom and oath to defend the tribe in case of invasion. In addition, youths were expected to serve in the levy as lighter infantry, fleet skirmishers who harass the enemy.
2. The Professionals. These were skilled and experienced fighters who rallied around a particular strongman, warlord, or king. The leader would provide food and shelter for these men, and grant them shares of the spoils of war, often using it to re-equip them with better weapons or armour. In return these veterans pledged their allegiance to the warlord; a violation of this trust was seen as the ultimate desertion in society, along with failing to serve in the levy when the enemy knocking at the door. Often when a warlord undertook a military expedition, enterprising members of the common levy would join the war-band in the hope of gaining loot from the campaign.
3. The Outcasts. These would be men who by shame or by personal choice were relegated to the fringes of society. Often the missile units would be composed of such men, though some skilled tribesmen would occasionally fight as such troops. The Worgozez also are on the fringes of society, if indeed they can be considered part of society at all! None of these men would be leaders or any sort of figure around whom thousands of warriors would rally, and they would certainly not lead migrations either.

Unless we have proof that a good number of wild savages were in fact wandering around as the leaders of the Ambrones, I see no reason to have them as the general's unit as opposed to the Xosenthozez Xazdadoi, who are in fact professional, well armed retainers as might suit the leader of a large war-band composed of the majority of members of a particular ethnos, or indeed the leader of an entire migration.

30,000 is small for an ethnic group but a village might be 1,000 people or fewer; meaning that these Ambrones would be composed of at least 30 villages, likely more as I highly doubt they inhabited towns. Far from a small, singular community! They are no Helvetii but what do you expect?

[Arjos]

Nitpicking here, of course they didn't have a national treasure...
But each family unit and expanding upwards to the whole tribe, were under the chiefs: in a way the chief/assembly was the "state"...

That's what I meant (all the family nuclei, tribal units etc, compromising the Ambrones ethnos) and hence the quotation marks...
Economically whichever resources they were able as a whole to exploit...
Then internally it was obviously under specific control and I don't know how much land they re-distributed or if they did that at all...

As I endlessly tried to explain, my point is in regard of the equipment and capabilities of their war-leaders, not the people forming the given unit...
Since they are a lesser component, in my view they shouldn't be as heavy/wealthy as the cimbrian and teutonic leaders...
I saw the Worgōzez as capable/experienced warriors, without all that iron, still bringing an higher set of skills...

But if we can't get pass what the specific unit is made of, then fine put them all on the same level...

[gamegeek2]

Can we get a third opinion on this?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I'd have to agree with gamegeek if only for the fact that I don't believe people would be inspired to follow societal outcasts on a migration. I'll be the first to admit I know very little about Germanic and central European Celtic tribes however.

[vartan]

Student of Germanic and Celtic peoples would be nice about now.

[Arjos]

The point is not about the people composing the unit: it's the equipment and skills...
Being them described as the most warlike, plunderers etc...
Coupled with the fact that they wouldn't have been as wealthy...

Anyway, change the hastati to principes, after the Gracchi there wasn't any difference...
And imo, too many triarii, one in each army is enough...