Phalangite Confusion

[ahowl11]

In RTW there is a simple set up for the Phalangite Units:

Levy Pikemen, Phalanx Pikemen, Elite Phalanx unit

the Elite troops are:
Macedon: Royal Pikemen;
Seleucids: Silver Shield Pikemen;
Pontus: Bronze Shield Pikemen

I need the historical set up for each of these factions: Macedon, Seleucids, Pontus, Ptolemies, Epirus, Bactria, Greeks (Acahean/Aetolian leagues)

There are so many different names for phalangites, I just need some clarity so I can sort out who's who in the phalangite world.

Here are the different names that I have come across

Agema
Argyraspides
Asthetairoi
Chalkaspides
Chrysaspides
Deuteroi
Leukaspides
Pantodapoi
Pezhetairos
Pezoi (maybe same as Pezhetiros?)

Then there are others:

Eastern Pikemen
Pontic Pikemen
Bronze Shields
Machimoi Pikemen
Cleruch Pikemen
Cleruch Agema
Thorakitai Pikemen
Iphicratean Pikemen
Perioeki Pikemen
Militia Phalanx
Epirote Pikemen
Tarentine Leukaspides

Now I'm sure that some of these are just Pikemen from their respective cultures, I am more concerned with the former list.

So could someone, kind of put the units in recruitment order and also to what factions they would belong to? It would help me immensely!

thanks,

-ahowl11

[Fluvius Camillus]

In RTW there is a simple set up for the Phalangite Units:

Levy Pikemen, Phalanx Pikemen, Elite Phalanx unit

the Elite troops are:
Macedon: Royal Pikemen;
Seleucids: Silver Shield Pikemen;
Pontus: Bronze Shield Pikemen

I need the historical set up for each of these factions: Macedon, Seleucids, Pontus, Ptolemies, Epirus, Bactria, Greeks (Acahean/Aetolian leagues)

There are so many different names for phalangites, I just need some clarity so I can sort out who's who in the phalangite world.

Here are the different names that I have come across

Agema
Argyraspides
Asthetairoi
Chalkaspides
Chrysaspides
Deuteroi
Leukaspides
Pantodapoi
Pezhetairos
Pezoi (maybe same as Pezhetiros?)

Then there are others:

Eastern Pikemen
Pontic Pikemen
Bronze Shields
Machimoi Pikemen
Cleruch Pikemen
Cleruch Agema
Thorakitai Pikemen
Iphicratean Pikemen
Perioeki Pikemen
Militia Phalanx
Epirote Pikemen
Tarentine Leukaspides

Now I'm sure that some of these are just Pikemen from their respective cultures, I am more concerned with the former list.

So could someone, kind of put the units in recruitment order and also to what factions they would belong to? It would help me immensely!

thanks,

-ahowl11

Alright, here goes my accumulated knowledge from RTR and especially EB.

Agema = Is literally "guards". Certianly elite.
Argyraspides = Silver shields, they are the elite phalanghites of Makedon and the Arche Seleukeia.
Asthetairoi = Makedonian Elite infanty (used in RTR).
Chalkaspides = Bronze shields, I'd guess semi-elite, someone has to confirm this. (Used by Makedon and Pontos in my knowledge)
Chrysaspides= Gold shields, I'd guess higher medium, again, someone might confirm this.
Deuteroi = If I recall correctly, levy.
Leukaspides = White shields, used mainly by late Makedonian armies, I'd guess semi-elite.
Pantodapoi = Probably natives, depends on the natives but take it for granted that they are low level.
Pezhetairos = Literally (Pez=)foot (Hetairoi=)companion. Judging from the game, medium infantry.
Pezoi (maybe same as Pezhetiros?) = Simply means infantry, medium, but will probably vary.

Hope this helps a bit.

~Fluvius

[ahowl11]

Thank you. That helps a little.

I guess the best way to set it up for recruitment would be like this:

Deuteroi - Levy Pikemen
Pezhetairos - Phalanx Pikemen
Asthetairoi - Royal Pikemen (Macedon only)
Argyraspides - Silver Shield Pikemen (Seleucids only)
Chalkaspides - Bronze Shield Pikemen (Pontus only)
Agema - Elite infantry (Hellenistic)
Pantodapoi - Native Pikemen (AOR unit for Hellenistic factions)

I do not think I will use Chrysaspides, Leukaspides, or Pezoi; due to the fact that I simply do not know where they would fit in the unit rosters. If someone could convince me otherwise I'll gladly consider.
As for Agema I do not even know who should have them. Macedon had Hypaspists, Seleucids might have Hypaspists as well, Ptolemies has Basilikon Guard which I'm guessing was their 'Agema' and Pontus to my knowledge only had Chalkaspides. Bactria is the only faction that I can think of.

If someone has knowledge of this let me know, I'm just trying to figure out recruitment for these factions.

Thanks again to Fluvius Camillus

[ForzaFiori]

Epiros has Agema as their elite phalangites, as well as Pezhetairos and Levies, not sure about others, since I just started with them and only briefly looked over their recruitment.

[bobbin]

As I haven't played rtr for a long time I'll just comment on the EB units.

Agema - Elite

Argyraspides - Elite

Chalkaspides - Semi Elite

Deuteroi - Levy

Pantodapoi - Levy

Pezhetairoi - Main line troops

Machimoi - Levy

[ahowl11]

Ok so let me get this straight.

Deuteroi - Levy (Should only be available in Greece)
Pantodapoi - Levy (Should only be available in eastern provinces)
Machimoi - Levy (Should only be available in Egypt)
Pezhetairoi - Main Line Troops (Available everywhere)
Asthetairoi - Macedonian Elite
Argyraspides - Seleucid Elite
Chalkaspides - Pontus Elite
Cleruch Pikemen - Ptolemaic Elite

So the Ptolemies would start out having Machimoi as their levies, the Seleucids would end up having Pantodapoi as their levies, and Macedon would have Deuteroi as their levies. However, if you are playing as the seleucids and you conquer greek territory the deuteroi would be the levy troop available instead of the Pantodapoi. Same can be said if you conquer Egypt, you would then have to recruit machimoi troops.

However what to do with Agema? I mean it's an elite troop yes but Macedon had Hypaspists as well. Did they also have an Agema Core? I know Bactria and the Ptolemies have Agema. What about the Seleucids? I will go through all the mods and see if I can come up with some answers

[Brennus]

Pezhetairoi - Main line troops


Not with my economy pal, they are the elite.

[Arjos]

Usually Agema were mobile armoured infantry, be that heavy Thorakitai or Hypaspistai...
BTW Klerouchoi were simply settled greeks in the east and mostly Egypt, they were slightly better than the Machimoi, but still they were quite regular foot troops...

[bobbin]

Agema is just a term, it was used to describe various forms of elite units from phalangites to cavalry. Its use varied over time and between nations.

ahowl11: its hard to order your list because you are using unit names from different mods, so there is a lot of repition, but I think you got it right. Except that the Ptolemaic agema would not be a separate unit under a faction like the seleukids, they would become part of the Argyraspides.

[Arjos]

It is true, but usually there were both mounted agema, the so called royal squadrons and personal foot guards operating detached by the main phalangitai line, right next to the Basileos...
As for phalanxes called agema I thought that was only during the alexandrian and the first Diadochoi's periods...

To add:

Thorakitai Pikemen - I'd guess these would be the Achean League soldiers, outfitted in the macedonian fashion.
Iphicratean Pikemen - These were the prototype of the phalanx, hoplitai with a longer dory (spear), lighter equipment and a smaller strapped aspis (round shield), but for the hellenistic era, the EB unit with a thureos (oblong shield) should be more accurate.
Perioeki Pikemen - I'd think they would be the phalanx corp introduced by Kleomenes III.
Epirote Pikemen - Chaonian elite phalangitai.
Tarentine Leukaspides - These were the men refitted by Pyrros of Apeiros in Italy.

All of them, except the Chaones, would be medium, better than levies, but far from being elite. Iphicrates' men would actually be a very light and mobile unit...

[ahowl11]

Except that the Ptolemaic agema would not be a separate unit under a faction like the seleukids, they would become part of the Argyraspides.

bobbin

Yes you are right, the elite troops for each faction would not be available for the others due to the fact that each faction has it's set elite corps of elite troops.

Arjos

Thank you for the useful information, it helps a lot.

Two questions though:

In EB the Seleucids and Ptolemies have both Pezhetairoi and Kleruchoi available, and both are considered the mainline troops or "backbone" of the army. In my mod that I'm making I am not planning on giving two "mainline" phalangite units to a faction because the player would choose one over the other and the latter would be neglected and a waste almost so who should stay and who should be left out?

My assumption is that I do the same with what I did with the Levies. If your in macedon or greece, Pezhetairoi would be your recruitment option, but if you are in syria or egypt. you would have to recruit kleruchoi. (Assuming you are playing as Macedon, Seleucids, or Ptolemies)

Would that be logical?

In my mod I have the Greek Cities having three Phalangite units
Militia Phalangits
Phalangites
Armored Phalangites

Now would it be better to keep one phalangite unit and add in the Thorakitai and Iphicratean Phalanx? Or keep it as is?

thank you all for the help!

[moonburn]

the easterns wheren´t exactly greek they where hellenes meaning traikhians and other hellenic people would also be part of the kleurokoi

also the hellenes in the east would switch side beteween the ptolemaioi and seulekids depending on who won the batle/war that rulled over their landgrants the same could be said about the makedonians to some extent altough the makedonians tended to be more xenophobic wich could actually mean that some of the hellenes could loose their land grants to more "worthy" makedonians and be displaced

there´s also a 3rd group in the mix that must be considered (besides the natives and the hellenes) wich is the barbaroi

the egyptians gave land grants to the keltik but not on the borderlands of the seulekids so they wouldn´t loose them while the seulekids went all the way to the aegean not for conquest and profit but to be able to recruit keltoi thrako keltoi and whatever barbaroi they could get their hands on to counter the aygyptian keltoi flanking groups

ofc these barbaroi flankers wouldn´t be that important if they had maintained their cavalry strenght but once the batles become meat grinders beteween phallangitai how fast your flankers can cut trough the phallanxes becomes decisive

[seleucid empire]

according to eb the seleucids maintained their cavalry strength and were the only Hellenistic state able to do so. I think the weakness of the Seleucid army was their poor quality phalanx and flank guards (They used arabian mercenaries on their flanks at Raphia... =.= )

[Arjos]

In EB the Seleucids and Ptolemies have both Pezhetairoi and Kleruchoi available, and both are considered the mainline troops or "backbone" of the army. In my mod that I'm making I am not planning on giving two "mainline" phalangite units to a faction because the player would choose one over the other and the latter would be neglected and a waste almost so who should stay and who should be left out?

The AoR would be the main difference, perhaps also having the pezhetairoi slightly better: the Klerouchoi would be available in more regions, Levant, Asia Minor and the mediterranean coast of Egypt; while the Pezhetairoi only in the big metropoleis (Antiocheia, Alexandria, Seleukia, Baktra etc) plus Makedonia...
Also the Asthetairoi should be available only in Upper Macedonia, they were recruited among the northern communities...


Now would it be better to keep one phalangite unit and add in the Thorakitai and Iphicratean Phalanx? Or keep it as is?

Whichever your team prefers, by looking at that list only the names would change: the Thorakitai would be the armoured ones, the militia maybe Iphicratean and the regulars could be just Phalangitai or maybe coupled with a regional connotation...