View Full Version : Cav charge throughs.
The intention of this post is to fully endorse and expand the problem stated by gamegeek2 in his latest youtubevideo about cav charge throughs. There, we get and example of cav charging through the back of another friendly cav. This type of charge is just a variation of the well know cav charge through own infantry. Why we should spare the penalty to the back of our own cav? As far as I know, they are just bodies too.
In another sense, there are cav charge throughs when one player is going to hit the back of an already engaged enemy unit with 2 or more cav units. Cav units ussualy tend to cross themselves in the charge movement: which is a charge through in movement between those units. We know this types of charges are powerful enough to insta-rout the engaged enemy unit and by discouraging them we are just making a more fair battle system.
1.-Stationary or static cav charge through:
gg2's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOlsP9zEb-4&feature=g-all-u
2.- Dynamic or in movement cav charge through:
cav cav
X
--- engaged enemy unit's back
What we should do is to forbid those charges through.
Charge through through loose units are allowed.
Charge through through standing cavalry units are already forbidden
Charge through as "3 units charging together but getting a little confused" are not forbidden and should not as you just can't prevent it.
gamegeek2
06-03-2012, 04:19
Charge through through standing cavalry units are already forbidden
The precedent is that nobody seems to care about this. I see people do it flippantly, but they correctly point out when such a thing is done to infantry. In the case of cavalry, though, it's far more devastating - I instantly lost 20 cataphracts in one charge. I lost 10 more bodyguards later, 10 bodyguards doomed anyways but which would have maybe bought me some time. I might have been able to rout one of those cavalry units which proceeded to hit my infantry in the back at least 5 times throughout the rest of the battle.
Charge through as "3 units charging together but getting a little confused" are not forbidden and should not as you just can't prevent it.
This is a result of the game and is not something players can correct for.
However "confusion" cannot be used as an excuse for things like this.
I feel obliged to inform the players about how this rule works. For those of you who don't know, this is Fair Play Rule #2 (http://ebportal.tk/wp/rules/). I recreate the text of the rule for your convenience here:
No charging cavalry through own men. Your cavalry must charge before your infantry.
I admit, initially this rule only applied to infantry, and you can see this as a semantic remnant (or ruin) in the rule's phrasing. The second sentence mentions that you must charge cav before inf. This implies that you are attacking an enemy unit with at least one inf and at least one cav. Furthermore, you must charge all cav at said enemy before charging all inf so as to prevent your cav from charging through your inf. In other words, do not charge cav through your own inf. At some point in EBO history, this also encompassed charging through your own cavalry. In fact, if you view this picture (https://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4429/1chargingthroughownmen.jpg) shown on the same website that contains the fair play rules, you'll see that it shows a charge through taking place through cavalry, not infantry.
To put it shortly: No charging cavalry through your own men, whether they be infantry, cavalry, or both.
Also I'd like to make something clear for those who may be confused. You are allowed to charge at an enemy unit using more than one cavalry unit, as long as they are ordered to attack together. They effectively act as one unit. The fact that they come together some short time before the actual charge does not make it a violation of Rule #2, because that rule requires that the unit you charge through be currently engaged, and stacked cavalry are not engaged until they reach their target and stop charging.
This is a result of the game and is not something players can correct for.
However "confusion" cannot be used as an excuse for things like this.
Confusion was not meant on the players side but unit side. I just did not know how to say that 2, 3 units charging together tend to... intermingle.
Unless you use an angle .
-Stormrage-
06-03-2012, 15:06
just to be clear we, Can't, do this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOlsP9zEb-4&feature=g-all-u
gamegeek2
06-03-2012, 18:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LTyesa18oI&feature=youtu.be
I can and will do this every time I see it.
And I'll keep saying: I attacked the flankers, no other man was touched and u picked the worst camera angle possible :D
There were at least 15-20 indohellenikoi behind my Galatikoi...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LTyesa18oI&feature=youtu.be
I can and will do this every time I see it.
I don't think this is a problem here: Arjos attacks and kills some guys IN FRONT of his men and he does not even reach your main line with his charge.
I said it all.
http://youtu.be/-LTyesa18oI
In the above video, titled "Again", the following happens.
At 0:05, the Ptolemaioi charge at the Saka infantry. Unfortunately, the Saka infantry is already fighting Ptolemaioi infantry. The Ptolemaioi cavalry does not charge from the Saka side, but from his own side, thus going through his own infantry. This, my friends, is "charging through one's men".
Pause at 0:50. Here, notice something about the positioning. The Saka cavalry is charging the Ptolemaioi infantry, the same infantry I mentioned above. Analogously to the Ptolemaioi charge earlier, the Saka player charges from his own side, and not from the Ptolemaioi side. The Saka cavalry is about 6 or 7 horses wide as it charges, and half of its front collides with Saka troops, while the other half collides with Ptolemaioi troops. Some people might say this is charging through one's own men, but I would let this slip for one major reason. The Saka player is not charging through the length of his men. The Ptolemaic charge at 0:05 goes through the length of his own front. This is unacceptable.
The Ptolemaic charge at the Saka rear at 1:00 is clearly legal. Those horses go around the engagement line and hit the rear of the Saka, rightly causing a series of routs among the Saka infantry.
I hope this clears some questions that people might have. If you have any questions, please, I'm happy to take them.
At 0:05, the Ptolemaioi charge at the Saka infantry. Unfortunately, the Saka infantry is already fighting Ptolemaioi infantry. The Ptolemaioi cavalry does not charge from the Saka side, but from his own side, thus going through his own infantry. This, my friends, is "charging through one's men".
I charged the peltastai, since these were in loose formation, the cav went for their middle, which unfortunately was behind my men, but I didn't kill any men there, only in the flank...
No , the first charge, only gets Saka infantry which is flanking .
I said it all.
http://youtu.be/-LTyesa18oI
In the above video, titled "Again", the following happens.
At 0:05, the Ptolemaioi charge at the Saka infantry. Unfortunately, the Saka infantry is already fighting Ptolemaioi infantry. The Ptolemaioi cavalry does not charge from the Saka side, but from his own side, thus going through his own infantry. This, my friends, is "charging through one's men".
It only looks that way. There are 10-20 men of saka infantry who have encircled the ptolies. THEY are charged... that way also arjos charged INTO his own men but not THROUGH them, he did not reach men BEHIND his unit.
It only looks that way. There are 10-20 men of saka infantry who have encircled the ptolies. THEY are charged... that way also arjos charged INTO his own men but not THROUGH them, he did not reach men BEHIND his unit.
That teaches us not to use videos. Use eagle's eye view screenshots and diagram them. Arjos saves face.
gamegeek2
06-03-2012, 19:31
Agreed, I concede.
Brave Brave Sir Robin
06-03-2012, 21:12
To be completely honest, I was unaware that cavalry are not allowed to charge through each other, probably a combination from my past experiences watching it performed by others, the wording on the site, and that no one has ever called me out on it. Definitely something to keep in mind for future battles.
Does this help?
http://ebportal.tk/wp/2012/06/03/fair-play-rule-2-re-wording/
antisocialmunky
06-04-2012, 00:49
With how cav speeds up when they get into charge range, it is really difficult to deal with it.
Brave Brave Sir Robin
06-04-2012, 02:38
Does this help?
http://ebportal.tk/wp/2012/06/03/fair-play-rule-2-re-wording/
Yes, much clearer. Thank you:bow:
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