lol at arab spring, again

[Fragony]

Women who were protesting abuse and demonstrated for women's rights got attacked by a mob of hundreds of men who are an enrichment to our culture according to the left. We can really learn from eachother after all, whe can share recepies the more the better. They were beaten, sexually assaulted, and the police did nothing. Arab women, come here, we won't do that to you, there are plenty of goats in Egypt and they won't notice the difference anyway.

Meh. Rant over.

[HoreTore]

Wow.

Violence in a shaky post-revolutionary situation.

Yeah, this only happens in Egypt. Only muslims. This is not completely normal.

In other news, French men are now considered animals who should be thrown iut of europe, what with The Terror and all...

[Fragony]

Wow.

Violence in a shaky post-revolutionary situation.

Yeah, this only happens in Egypt. Only muslims. This is not completely normal.

In other news, French men are now considered animals who should be thrown iut of europe, what with The Terror and all...

It happened in France? Sorry I must be mistaken then I thought it was Egypt, must be because of that obelisk on the Place de la Concorde.

I also have the beheading of a convert in Tunesia by the way, hard to watch, it takes almost 2 minutes. Tunesia was a very nice country with very nice people. PM and I deliver

[HoreTore]

It happened in France? Sorry I must be mistaken then I thought it was Egypt, must be because of that obelisk on the Place de la Concorde.

I also have the beheading of a convert in Tunesia by the way, hard to watch, it takes almost 2 minutes. Tunesia was a very nice country with very nice people. PM and I deliver

Violence in a post-revolutionary situations happens all over the place.

[Fragony]

Violence in a post-revolutionary situations happens all over the place.

Sure, but the wishfull thinking of lefties who came up with the term arab spring, who knew, for a fact, that things would go forward, is getting increasingly hilarious. Wrong as usual. There is no arab spring, there will be an islamist winter.

[LeftEyeNine]

Sure, but the wishfull thinking of lefties who came up with the term arab spring, who knew, for a fact, that things would go forward, is getting increasingly hilarious. Wrong as usual. There is no arab spring, there will be an islamist winter.

Thanks to those sponsored and/or actively were involved in it from overseas. Even Turkey and her goddamn USA-muppet government.

[HoreTore]

Sure, but the wishfull thinking of lefties who came up with the term arab spring, who knew, for a fact, that things would go forward, is getting increasingly hilarious. Wrong as usual. There is no arab spring, there will be an islamist winter.

No.

There was a hope for a move towards a democracy. And there still is, of course, nobody can predict what the situstion will be in a couple of years.

But whatever happens in the middle east, the "not-racist" will whine about how awful they are. A dictator running the show? OMG no muslim countries are democracies! A democratic revolution? OMG the islamists are taking over!

There's just no pleasing some people. Oh well, it's not like anyone should listen to them.

[Fragony]

Thanks to those sponsored and/or actively were involved in it from overseas. Even Turkey and her goddamn USA-muppet government.

It wasn't me

[spankythehippo]

I also have the beheading of a convert in Tunesia by the way, hard to watch, it takes almost 2 minutes. Tunesia was a very nice country with very nice people. PM and I deliver

I'm interested. I shall add it to my extensive snuff video collection. I doubt it will be hard to watch. I've seen a lot.

[Hax]

Any news coming out of Egypt right now should be treated with the utmost suspicion. To be fair, I wouldn't put it past Shafiq and his cronies to actually bribe and/or dress up so-called Muslim fundamentalists into disrupting such a protest in order to discredit the Mursi. This does not mean that I'm in favour of any candidate, but we seriously have to consider the Muslim Brotherhood as well as the Freedom and Justice Party as a legitimate political movement.

In the case of Tunisia, of course there's a branch of takfiri jihadis in Tunisia. They're probably not that influential, as Tunisia itself was never a state in which Islamic radicalism was able to garner much support.


Furthermore, what I find even more offensive is the amount of self-declared so-called experts on the Middle-East that seem to have popped up everywhere in the post-Revolution era. Reading Wikipedia articles or Bernard Lewis' latest book won't really cut it. It's incredibly naive to look at situations that have occured throughout the Middle-East post-1950's without placing these events in a strict historical context: to a large degrees, internal struggles that we're seeing to this day are more an effect of a Anglo-French policy emphasising religious and ethnic differences than something inherent in these cultures. In that sense, these "experts" are only reinforcing ideas of a monolithic culture that is inherently opposed to what we commonly define as democratic values: rights for women and minorities, parliamentary representation, and a general message of tolerance.

I don't claim to understand the Middle-East, and since I started studying the region in university, I can only say I understand it less. But at the very least I'm able to recognise all the different facets. I distinguish between labels such as Salafism, Islamism, and radical jihadism, even though for other people there is no difference. That's okay, but then don't shove the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran's Islamic Republic, and the Taliban into one and the same shelf. It has no basis in reality.

[Fragony]

I didn't, and I actually know the nuances. What I do do however is mocking the lefties who will never understand that they simply don't get it.

[Brenus]

Yeap, as Camerone and Sarkozy who sponsored these 2 wars are very well known lefties...

[Hax]

I didn't, and I actually know the nuances. What I do do however is mocking the lefties who will never understand that they simply don't get it.

I don't think so. You're eager to jump in at every opportunity when it arises to attack Islam.

[Fragony]

Yeap, as Camerone and Sarkozy who sponsored these 2 wars are very well known lefties...

Which two, if you mean Libya, it was attacked because turning to gold would have killed French banks. Don't remember any hallelujah over the riots am sich being an arab spring comming from them. Attacking Libya was completely immoral and I never supported it. Lefties did though because they bought into the arab spring. That's the only war I can think of though

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Violence in a post-revolutionary situations happens all over the place.

And if you presented me with a Frenchman two hundred years ago I would have spit on him for being involved.

Just because it was done before does not make it less disgusting now.

[Strike For The South]

And if you presented me with a Frenchman two hundred years ago I would have spit on him for being involved.

Just because it was done before does not make it less disgusting now.

This.


I find it funny a Dutchman can stab a fellow human being and then claim the moral high ground when some Egyptian men beat on Egyptian women. The only difference, as far as I can tell is that the Dutchmen lives in far greater material comfort and therefore deems himself more civilized.

[Kadagar_AV]

This.


I find it funny a Dutchman can stab a fellow human being and then claim the moral high ground when some Egyptian men beat on Egyptian women. The only difference, as far as I can tell is that the Dutchmen lives in far greater material comfort and therefore deems himself more civilized.

It is a big difference between someone stating he regrets idiotic things he did in his youth and grown ups doing idiotic things for cultural or religious reasons.

Cheap shot, but I think most people will see through your post anyway.

[Strike For The South]

It is a big difference between someone stating he regrets idiotic things he did in his youth and grown ups doing idiotic things for cultural or religious reasons.

Cheap shot, but I think most people will see through your post anyway.

So regert is the only prerequisite for moral rightness? No doubt, some of these men in their old age, when they are comfortable will look back with regret on this day

I am only pointing at the searing hypocricsy. I do think Modern Western life is more desireable than what some Egyptians are trying to impose but in the same vein we have very destructive ways of our own. The fact we do it in a suit makes no difference to me

[Kadagar_AV]

So regert is the only prerequisite for moral rightness? No doubt, some of these men in their old age, when they are comfortable will look back with regret on this day

I am only pointing at the searing hypocricsy. I do think Modern Western life is more desireable than what some Egyptians are trying to impose but in the same vein we have very destructive ways of our own. The fact we do it in a suit makes no difference to me

I take a stupid youth's idiocy over cultural idiocy any day.

We will always have idiocy because of youth, but cultural idiocy we can over time do something about.

[Strike For The South]

I take a stupid youth's idiocy over cultural idiocy any day.

We will always have idiocy because of youth, but cultural idiocy we can over time do something about.

As if the singular man exsists in a vaccum.

I was just talking a shot at Frags. His cryptic populism gets to me and Oranje lost yesterday.

[Kadagar_AV]

As if the singular man exsists in a vaccum.

I was just talking a shot at Frags. His cryptic populism gets to me and Oranje lost yesterday.

So, spend less time taking pointless shots you don't even believe in yourself at forum members, and more time making yourself or the world less bitter. It's a general principle I've tried to follow upon my return :)

[Strike For The South]

So, spend less time taking pointless shots you don't even believe in yourself at forum members, and more time making yourself or the world less bitter. It's a general principle I've tried to follow upon my return :)

Very few on this forum grab my attention anymore. I'll continue with the childish potshots

[Kralizec]

I never was a big fan of the term "Arab spring". I'm largely supportive of the uprisings but any real gains (i.e. the establishment of modern, democratic governments) would always be a long term result. In the short term, as HoreTore notes, violence and such are to be expected.


Which two, if you mean Libya, it was attacked because turning to gold would have killed French banks. Don't remember any hallelujah over the riots am sich being an arab spring comming from them. Attacking Libya was completely immoral and I never supported it. Lefties did though because they bought into the arab spring. That's the only war I can think of though

Is this about Ghadaffi's idea to introduce a pan-African currency? If so, file that under "ambitious ideas which Ghadaffi has on a regular basis but which never amount to anything". It's not even a recent idea - he has proposed the idea before, years ago.

Ghadaffi had an international outlook, so to speak. He was one of the staunchest pan-Arab advocates - being a megalomaniac, he imagined that he'd be the natural successor to Nasser. But since Libya is one of the smaller Arab countries in population, and none of the others took Gadaffi as a person very seriously, that ambition was doomed from the start. Because of that, he largely abandoned pan-Arabism and embraced pan-Africanism instead. Funny fact is that his change in clothing habits seem to coincide.

Like his pan-Arabism however, it's underlying purpose is to make him look important, and it would most likely lead to nothing. The idea that NATO felt threatened by this brain fart of his (the african currency) and decided to remove him for that reason is crazy.

[Fragony]

This.


I find it funny a Dutchman can stab a fellow human being and then claim the moral high ground when some Egyptian men beat on Egyptian women. The only difference, as far as I can tell is that the Dutchmen lives in far greater material comfort and therefore deems himself more civilized.

Awesome isn't it, I am so doing it

[rvg]

I don't think so. You're eager to jump in at every opportunity when it arises to attack Islam.

And muslim countries keep presenting him with fresh reasons to make those attacks.

[Ironside]

I take a stupid youth's idiocy over cultural idiocy any day.

We will always have idiocy because of youth, but cultural idiocy we can over time do something about.

The problem is that breaking or at least moderating the Islamic movements is done by keeping them from being a unifying (under the religious umbrella) force within the opposition. 1-2 elections and their power is broken (yes there's a significant risk of it turning into an Islamic dictorship).
Going from a secular dictorship to a secular democracy, when the religous movements have been feeding on the dictorship for decades is going to be hard.

[HoreTore]

I find it hilarious that the actions of young men in Holland is explained with "youth", while the actions of young men in Egypt is explained with "culture/religion".

Does that mean that northern europe has no culture, and that people in the middle east skip the youth-stage and go directly from boys to middle-aged men?

[Fragony]

I find it hilarious that the actions of young men in Holland is explained with "youth", while the actions of young men in Egypt is explained with "culture/religion".

Does that mean that northern europe has no culture, and that people in the middle east skip the youth-stage and go directly from boys to middle-aged men?

Because it was just me and not a mob of hudreds?

[Greyblades]

Because it was just me and not a mob of hudreds?
Indeed, our nutjobs, our utter wastes of humanity are the same as thiers, the only difference is that ours are disorganised and far between whereas thiers are tight knit and organized enough to pool thier evilness.

:P

[Fragony]

Indeed, our nutjobs, our utter wastes of humanity

You are justsaying that to make me feel better ;)

[Hax]

And muslim countries keep presenting him with fresh reasons to make those attacks.

So when a crazy fringe group beheads one person in Tunisia it's enough reason to assume that the revolutions have failed?

[Greyblades]

You are justsaying that to make me feel better ;)

I try. :)

[HoreTore]

Because it was just me and not a mob of hudreds?

Ah, yes, Fragony is the only person in western europe who has displayed anti-social behaviour.

[Fragony]

Muslims I choose you, got to defend them all

[Noncommunist]

Now, the Supreme Court has ordered for the dissolution of parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18439530

[rvg]

Now, the Supreme Court has ordered for the dissolution of parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18439530

That's probably a good thing as it weakens the bearded ones.

[Hax]

Not too strange to see Mursi actually agreeing with that. Mursi makes Romney look like Cato.

[Noncommunist]

Syria has now shot down a Turkish plane.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jHpOZDTGiOyM1NOEqnzAjdDYSKJw?docId=CNG.f12ec2f00ff00a1745ad313748b64cd1.91

[Noncommunist]

That's what happens when you fly around in planes from the Vietnam era. Didn't Turkey just attack Iraq, too?

I think they had bombed some of the supporters of the PKK in Iraq but not Iraq itself.

[Fragony]

I think they had bombed some of the supporters of the PKK in Iraq but not Iraq itself.

They do that all the time

[Fragony]

Rofl the Brotherhood wins, no lefties you are wrong, as always. They want shariah and nothing less. That is fine but don't mistake theit call to kill them wherever they find them all too lightly, they will if they can.

Coptic christians, come to us or die, die you will, here you can live.

[PanzerJaeger]

We were told with such certainty that this was a liberal movement. The idea that the Brotherhood was a serious threat to that movement was scoffed at. What a disaster - America's staunchest Arab ally turned into an Islamist state, and we held their hand through it all.

Hopefully the military will keep Morsi on a leash.

[PanzerJaeger]

^*2

[Fragony]

Scoffed at, sounds familiar. They were all see? SEE? SEEEE???!? here. They knew, for a fact, that it was highly unlikely because..... Ah well it just is shut up. Of course they are now united in absolute silence.

Classical leftist mistake, you can't just decide things are as you say, it really has to be true otherwise it isn't real

[Major Robert Dump]

I don't know, guys, you really should give the Muslim Brotherhood a chance. Rumor has it that they will turn the touristy areas into the Strip Club capitol of the world, and there will be pizza for lunch every day at school

[rory_20_uk]

You can either guarantee democracy or guarantee friendly governments. The latter generally breaks down in the end if there is a massive gulf between the two, which is often exacerbated by keeping them friendly.

Trying to manipulate the ones we want into power is only going to make things worse as the West / USA is blamed for everything. Let democratically elected locals screw things up and for them to be the focus of all the anger.

~:smoking:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You can either guarantee democracy or guarantee friendly governments. The latter generally breaks down in the end if there is a massive gulf between the two, which is often exacerbated by keeping them friendly.

Trying to manipulate the ones we want into power is only going to make things worse as the West / USA is blamed for everything. Let democratically elected locals screw things up and for them to be the focus of all the anger.

~:smoking:

The friendly governments agenda is why the general populace don't like us to begin with.

Again, we overturned democracy in Iran - look where we are now.

[Kralizec]

I think that was Rory's point. I agree with it.

[Ronin]

You can either guarantee democracy or guarantee friendly governments. The latter generally breaks down in the end if there is a massive gulf between the two, which is often exacerbated by keeping them friendly.

Trying to manipulate the ones we want into power is only going to make things worse as the West / USA is blamed for everything. Let democratically elected locals screw things up and for them to be the focus of all the anger.

~:smoking:

I would agree if the current situation had just happened by itself.....if that was the case then ok...so be it.

what I find bemusing in the push the Americans and Europeans gave to this cluster-**** with all the talk of "arab spring" and all that jazz...not to mention the intervention in Libya, that from the very beginning had no clear objective prize for us.

winter is coming.

[Fragony]

Why do you allow doubt... in your heart....

People who understand something already warned that the Arab spring would not necesesarely turn out to be 100% OK, of course they were mocked by progressive people who casted ''populism' if you weren't 100% sure they were 100% right.

[HoreTore]

I like how Fragony has invented a figure to hate. This liberal who was "100% sure they were 100% right" doesn't exist, of course. Egypt has three major blocs(the brotherhood, the mubarak supporters and the liberal movement) everyone knew this.

Revolutions always come with a risk. But there was a good chance of a proper government, and liberals like to take that chance. After all, a dictator is a dictator, it matters little whether he's mubarak or from the muslim brotherhood. Both are wrong. The right, on the other hand, seems to favour quite a few dictators...

And of course, the egyptian saga is far from complete.

[HoreTore]

But then again; when you honestly believe that european and arab powers conspire to make europe islamic, what chance do you have to understand interrnational politics? What chance can one have, when one starts with such a major mental handicap?

[Fragony]

But then again; when you honestly believe that european and arab powers conspire to make europe islamic, what chance do you have to understand interrnational politics? What chance can one have, when one starts with such a major mental handicap?

You assume that it is simply not true as it doesn't comfirm your worldview, the joke is on you.

[HoreTore]

You assume that it is simply not true as it doesn't comfirm your worldview, the joke is on you.

I lol'ed.

[Fragony]

I lol'ed.

You are free to lol and disprove the Eurabia theory whilst doing it, got to warn you it is exceptionally well documated.

[HoreTore]

You are free to lol and disprove the Eurabia theory whilst doing it, got to warn you it is exceptionally well documated.

It is, of course, logically impossible to prove that something does not exist. Every good conspiracy maker knows this.

The individual "facts" in the eurabia conspiracy are real enough, the problem is the connections drawn between them and the meaning read into them. That's when the loonies comes out to play. Like a standard cold war-era trade agreement being made out as definite proof of a conspiracy to sell off europe. I wonder when the Eurochina, Euroafrica and Eurorussia conspiracy theories will appear. After all, there's as much proof that european powers are trying to sell europe off to china as there is proof that they're selling it off to Islam.

Oh well. At least conspiracy theories are funny.

[Fragony]

It is, of course, logically impossible to prove that something does not exist. Every good conspiracy maker knows this.

The individual "facts" in the eurabia conspiracy are real enough, the problem is the connections drawn between them and the meaning read into them. That's when the loonies comes out to play. Like a standard cold war-era trade agreement being made out as definite proof of a conspiracy to sell off europe. I wonder when the Eurochina, Euroafrica and Eurorussia conspiracy theories will appear. After all, there's as much proof that european powers are trying to sell europe off to china as there is proof that they're selling it off to Islam.

Oh well. At least conspiracy theories are funny.

Suit yourself mia muca

[HoreTore]

Suit yourself mia muca

You're not even going to bring out the Strasbourg agreement(or whatever it was called) again?

I am disappoint.

[Fragony]

You're not even going to bring out the Strasbourg agreement(or whatever it was called) again?

I am disappoint.

You will find it in the book, don't look like me like that.

[HoreTore]

I have some stuff you should read, man. (http://www.alecso.org.tn/lng/images/stories/fichiers/en/dialog_culture/03%20ACIEVEMENTS%20En.pdf)

[Fragony]

I have some stuff you should read, man. (http://www.alecso.org.tn/lng/images/stories/fichiers/en/dialog_culture/03%20ACIEVEMENTS%20En.pdf)

How can you say I am wrong when you can acces that, isn't is just as I say it is

[HoreTore]

How can you say I am wrong when you can acces that, isn't is just as I say it is

I lol again.

These are completely standard documents for groups working with furthering relationships between countries. You'll find the same documents for the Dutch-Brazilian relationship that you find for the Dutch-Arab relationship.

The reason you think one is sinister while the other is not(the lack of a Eurobrazil theory), is because of islamophobia.

[Fragony]

I will be waiting much better imho

[Fragony]

When will you leftists get it that you simply don't get it? Tunesian anti-islamist opposition-leader was just assasinated, Tunesia was what Libanon once was. Egyptian president calls jew apes and pigs, in Libia there is ethnic cleansing of blacks.

[Sir Moody]

trust me we get that radical Islam is a problem - we just don't think the non radicals are

[Fragony]

trust me we get that radical Islam is a problem - we just don't think the non radicals are

So do we. We are just not screwing them over with a misguided need to respect the radicals. The left was so sure, this is teh arab spring! But that predictably turned out to be wishthinking. It's an islamist winter and everybody should have seen that comming.

Don't meddle with things you don't understand, and especially not here

[Hax]

Fragony, you don't know anything about Lebanon or Tunisia. Stop pretending that you do.

Two different countries, completely different situation.

[Fragony]

Fragony, you don't know anything about Lebanon or Tunisia. Stop pretending that you do.

Two different countries, completely different situation.

An ex of mine is from Tunesia and I inspected every inch of her. I know that it are completily different countries, but like Libanon it is a really forward nation sliding down from it's prospects to belong in a world of modernity. Stop assuming I don't know anything about it I'd say. Because I actually do.

[Idaho]

So finally we discover why frag hates Muslims! Did she break your heart?

[Hax]

You mean Tunisia and Lebanon right? Yes, the fact that your ex-girlfriend is from Tunisia clearly means that you know how the country works. Very good. My ex-girlfriend is from Venlo, so I guess I can say everything about Limburg now. Catch my drift? Anecdotal evidence reigns supreme.

Your so-called "knowledge" of these two states is based on the false assumption that they somehow want to slide towards an ill-defined "western-style" modernity, and I should probably put quotation marks between the last term as well.

For your information, Lebanon was created from the French Mandate in Syria, and one of the goals of creating this Lebanese state was to enable the Maronite Christians to form a state in which they formed a majority. However, as time progressed, the Maronite majority (which had already been ever so slight) began to shift towards a minority in a largely Sunni state. Imagine also a mix of Shi‘ites and Druze thrown in there.

Democratic institutions in Lebanon were more or less founded along the lines of local crime bosses, who managed to extend their spheres of influence through the process of democratisation. However, as these crime bosses were more or less only interested in their own wealth (and that of their inner circles) there wasn't any real co-operation in the government, finally resulting to major clashes between the different religious groups. Throw Syria in there and you kind of stand where we are today: no real progression as parliament is fractured into many different groups all serving their own purposes.

Whereas Tunisia is a completely different country. Relatively homogenous population of mostly (self-described) Arabs, virtually all Sunni Muslims with a tiny Jewish minority group. Tunisia, having been a protectorate of the same France did not really gain any meaningful independence until the mid-fifties, after which it was ruled by two different leaders: Bourguiba and Ben Ali, who pretty much ruled through use of the police force for over sixty years.


You want to compare these two countries? Seriously? Sorta like comparing Russia and Canada (but they're both cold!) or Mexico and the Netherlands (they both have drugs!). I'm sorry, but it's a silly comparison and I think you should know that.

[HopAlongBunny]

Democratic institutions...were more or less founded along the lines of local crime bosses...

History of the world Pt 1.

[Fragony]

So finally we discover why frag hates Muslims! Did she break your heart?

What makes you think I hate muslims, I just dispise Islam

[Idaho]

What makes you think I hate muslims, I just dispise Islam

Islam, like all religions, goes through bad patches. The current bad patch is very much due to the compliance of western states in suppressing viable political groups in Arabia. The only politics allowed by western backed dictators was politicised Islam.

Go and look at photos of nassar and sadat era Egypt. Hardly any political Islam or veils being worn. And that's without starting on the whole cia Afghanistan mujahadeen.

[Fragony]

Islam, like all religions, goes through bad patches. The current bad patch is very much due to the compliance of western states in suppressing viable political groups in Arabia. The only politics allowed by western backed dictators was politicised Islam.

Go and look at photos of nassar and sadat era Egypt. Hardly any political Islam or veils being worn. And that's without starting on the whole cia Afghanistan mujahadeen.

I am not that stupid Idaho, a muslim is for me simply someone who comes from an islamic country. I have no issues with them.

[Hax]

Like Coptic Christians from Egypt!

Wait no, makes no sense.

[Fragony]

Muslims welcome, islamists not, makes perfect sense to me. Most rightwingers wouldn't have a problem with muslims if leftist weren't islamphiles. the leftist church worships multiculture and will claw out your eyes when proven dead wrong.

Edit: lol@arab spring. Muslim cleric claims women who protest on the Tahier-square insist to be raped. 10% are widows who have nobody to control her apparently. You just got to respect that, it just screams for intercultural dialogue we can really learn from eachother.

And you guys wonder why I dispise the islam, gimme a break

Islamapoligists should watch 'la femme de rue', life of a woman in an area that has been enriched with people who have culture

[Sarmatian]

So do we. We are just not screwing them over with a misguided need to respect the radicals. The left was so sure, this is teh arab spring! But that predictably turned out to be wishthinking. It's an islamist winter and everybody should have seen that comming.


Not so fast. I'm a leftie and I wasn't really keen on arab spring.

I'd take a secular dictatorship over a religious one any day. Until there's a big, wealthy and educated middle class, democracy doesn't work. It becomes a situation of two wolves and a sheep voting what's gonna be for dinner.

[HoreTore]

Not so fast. I'm a leftie and I wasn't really keen on arab spring.

I'd take a secular dictatorship over a religious one any day. Until there's a big, wealthy and educated middle class, democracy doesn't work. It becomes a situation of two wolves and a sheep voting what's gonna be for dinner.

Bah, you Stalin-lover.

Democracy is the most conflict-reducing institution humanity has discovered so far. Any dictatorship, secular or religious or whatever, will end in bloodshed.

[Strike For The South]

Not so fast. I'm a leftie and I wasn't really keen on arab spring.

I'd take a secular dictatorship over a religious one any day. Until there's a big, wealthy and educated middle class, democracy doesn't work. It becomes a situation of two wolves and a sheep voting what's gonna be for dinner.

Right I remember when Eastern Europe skyrocketed to the top of human development under Moscow's thumb

and by "top" I mean alcoholism, autocracy, and crippling xenophobia.

Do you think they'll still honor my pop's 2 for 1 coupon on Soviet brides?

[Montmorency]

Until there's a big, wealthy and educated middle class, democracy doesn't work.

Yet that only came into being in America after WW2.


It becomes a situation of two wolves and a sheep voting what's gonna be for dinner.

More like a pig, a goose, and a mule. Or maybe the metaphor is escaping me - what were we on about? :tongue:

Note that pigs are omnivorous.

[Brenus]

Massive demonstration in Tunis organised in protest against the death of a an opposition leader... Yes, the Arab Spring is not over. Yes, the reactionary forces can win. When Revolutions start, the winner is not always the "good".
But whose fault is it? Who help all dictatorships around the world to kill all leftist opponents, from unionists, intellectuals, to politicians? Who trained their police, armies and "specials", and organising operations like "Condor"? Fighting communism is such way was opening the door to the Religious Extremists, as it was the only path left to be able to complain... Don't blame the leftist, blame the blindness of the good Rightists, the ones like Reagan and thatcher, and all these conservative governments preaching democracy except if socialist (see Allende, Mossaddegh).

[Fragony]

Massive demonstration in Tunis organised in protest against the death of a an opposition leader... Yes, the Arab Spring is not over. Yes, the reactionary forces can win. When Revolutions start, the winner is not always the "good".
But whose fault is it? Who help all dictatorships around the world to kill all leftist opponents, from unionists, intellectuals, to politicians? Who trained their police, armies and "specials", and organising operations like "Condor"? Fighting communism is such way was opening the door to the Religious Extremists, as it was the only path left to be able to complain... Don't blame the leftist, blame the blindness of the good Rightists, the ones like Reagan and thatcher, and all these conservative governments preaching democracy except if socialist (see Allende, Mossaddegh).

Not completily unfair

[HoreTore]

Massive demonstration in Tunis organised in protest against the death of a an opposition leader... Yes, the Arab Spring is not over. Yes, the reactionary forces can win. When Revolutions start, the winner is not always the "good".
But whose fault is it? Who help all dictatorships around the world to kill all leftist opponents, from unionists, intellectuals, to politicians? Who trained their police, armies and "specials", and organising operations like "Condor"? Fighting communism is such way was opening the door to the Religious Extremists, as it was the only path left to be able to complain... Don't blame the leftist, blame the blindness of the good Rightists, the ones like Reagan and thatcher, and all these conservative governments preaching democracy except if socialist (see Allende, Mossaddegh).

I always see the Spanish civil war as a model to how revolutions play out.

The republicans started out as a very diverse group, containing everything from conservatives to anarchists. Because they were painted as stalinists, however, the rest of the world did not help them. Thus, the only supporter left was Stalin. The extremely tiny stalinist fraction grew to dominate the republican side, because they were the ones who generated outside help.

I think we've seen the same thing happening in the middle east. We've painted a certain picture on the opposition, and are reluctant to help. The only ones who recieve support are islamists, and they have thus come to dominate the opposition.

Spain ended up with 40 years of Franco after the dictator fell. The arab world may go down the same road.

When moderate republicans talked about land reform, the west interpreted it as Stalinism. When moderate arab forces talk about Islam, we interpret it as islamism.

[Hax]

Brennus is actually pretty close to what it's about. Sort of.

Of course, we can't blame the vague "West" for all that is wrong with Arab countries. We have to acknowledge, however, that these regimes were supported, sort of, by most states throughout the world and received millions of dollars (if not more) in aid from the United States. Israel comes in here as well.

To put it plainly, and I've said this before, the fact that the majority of the opposition against these regimes was directed through mosques is not a coincidence. Cf. Iran (post-53), Egypt (post 56), Algeria (80's/early 90's). What the regimes in these countries did was to remove all viable methods of opposition except the one through religion. Not because they particularly liked (or feared) Islamism, but because there is no easy way to actually shut down a mosque or a religious school, wheras you could easily shut down a party's headquarters. This basically funneled most forms of domestic opposition through the religious institutions.

[HopAlongBunny]

Ok, so the "West"'s problems are largely the outgrowth of their intelligence and policy choices. The realization "we did it to ourselves" does not suggest an obvious way forward.

[HopAlongBunny]

That smacks of isolationism!

It does not play well on CNN and Fox. It might be good for the USA economically and in international politics, but it is a sure road to political oblivion at home :p

[Montmorency]

Seriously, we need to take a page out of China's textbook when it comes to foreign relations: Walk softly, and carry a big stick.

Your image of China is outdated.

Anyway, the Obama administration has already shifted the national strategy from interventionism to selective engagement. Perhaps that will be the paradigm for the next few decades, or perhaps it's a cover for the impending invasion of iran; either way, it's not 2005 anymore.

[Montmorency]

To be more precise: China carries a big stick, but it doesn't walk softly.

It hasn't for a decade at least.

What do you call "advising" sovereign governments half the world away what content their citizens may and may not discuss or access? Or harassing expats within those sovereign nations? Or increasing its reported military budget by 750% from 2000 to 2012?

Never mind its hotly-contested territorial claims (regardless of their legitimacy). Never mind its neo-imperialism.

If you believe that China 'keeps to itself', then let me borrow a page from FK's book:

OPEN YOUR EYES

[Montmorency]

I got your point perfectly - I even addressed it in the second sentence.

I'm just quibbling over your representation of China. :stare:

[HopAlongBunny]

Ah China :)

All geopolitical discussions for the next century (or longer) will come down to that. I thought the thread was more concerned with how the US can repair/promote its legitimacy/influence in an area of the world still viewed as the jewel in any imperial crown.

[Montmorency]

Yes. "Selective engagement".