View Full Version : Football, Russia, Poland, Hooligans...
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2012, 22:17
10 wounded, 100 arrested... Rough numbers.
It turns out that Polish people at large frown when more than 5000 Russians march through their streets screaming the country still belongs to them. And some obviously decided to do something about it, physically.
I find it sad that an international event like this has to be tarnished with stupid violence.
But I guess kudos to the Polish police, seems like they did their best to protect the Russian fanatics, even though they probably would have preferred to turn on them themselves rather than support them.
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2012, 22:20
This was before the game, let's see what happens after.
My guess? More blood will hit the streets before this day is over.
Centurion1
06-12-2012, 22:35
poles are stupid.
and i find it incredibly ironic how vicious and violent soccer fans are about the sport whose players are undeniably wimps.
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2012, 22:57
poles are stupid.
and i find it incredibly ironic how vicious and violent soccer fans are about the sport whose players are undeniably wimps.
I... I have no idea how you, from what I wrote, drew the conclusion that a whole national people are stupid.
In this case, I can't really blame the Polish people much, to be honest.
Poland and Russia have a long and violent history, with very fresh scars in the Polish mindset. Thousands of very eagerly nationalistic Russians marching through their streets doing their absolute best to provoke is more than they could take, and more than they should be expected to take.
Bad style from the Russian supporters, I'd say.
At the stadium, it looked like this:
http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/image/14969943/882/normal/15f80b1d687c7/SOCCER-EURO__359.JPG
Again, VERY bad style from the Russians.
At the stadium, it looked like this:
http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/image/14969943/882/normal/15f80b1d687c7/SOCCER-EURO__359.JPG
How do you get something that big into the stadium without security confiscating it? :inquisitive:
Kadagar_AV
06-12-2012, 23:47
How do you get something that big into the stadium without security confiscating it? :inquisitive:
Because it isn't TSA handling security, but people with a brain?
Kadagar_AV
06-13-2012, 00:19
Update: 15 wounded and 140 arrested.
I'm not sure "wounded" is the right term, "hospitalized" rather. I'm pretty sure more people than that are limping around.
Thankfully the early rumor of someone being killed seems to be wrong.
Centurion1
06-13-2012, 05:07
I... I have no idea how you, from what I wrote, drew the conclusion that a whole national people are stupid.
In this case, I can't really blame the Polish people much, to be honest.
Poland and Russia have a long and violent history, with very fresh scars in the Polish mindset. Thousands of very eagerly nationalistic Russians marching through their streets doing their absolute best to provoke is more than they could take, and more than they should be expected to take.
Bad style from the Russian supporters, I'd say.
At the stadium, it looked like this:
http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/image/14969943/882/normal/15f80b1d687c7/SOCCER-EURO__359.JPG
Again, VERY bad style from the Russians.
What you wrote has no influence on my preconceived notions regarding the intellectual capacity of an entire nation of
People. While I do not like poles very much for numerous reasons non of which I find necessary to share with you I also was making a flippant statement. It would be rather dense to hold
Such an opinion on millions of people.
Having the tournament there wasn't the best of ideas, Ukraine a even worse one
Kadagar_AV
06-13-2012, 07:25
What you wrote has no influence on my preconceived notions regarding the intellectual capacity of an entire nation of
People. While I do not like poles very much for numerous reasons non of which I find necessary to share with you I also was making a flippant statement. It would be rather dense to hold
Such an opinion on millions of people.
I agree with the "dense" part.
Fragony, why?
We had the Chinese Olympics, no?
Sports should make a bridge between nations.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18192375
There has been lots of coverage, especially in Panorama about the racism in Poland and the Ukraine. There are some real disturbing sights.
Kadagar_AV
06-13-2012, 08:07
It's not like the official quote for the games is "Respect"...
It's... It's almost like some clever being thought bringing the tournament there thought it would help.
Sure Ukraine has issues, so does the USA, but I saw the USA Olympics as something positive.
Bit of a difference, if I were black I would avoid these countries like the plague.
Shaka_Khan
06-13-2012, 08:59
What you wrote has no influence on my preconceived notions regarding the intellectual capacity of an entire nation of
People. While I do not like poles very much for numerous reasons non of which I find necessary to share with you I also was making a flippant statement. It would be rather dense to hold
Such an opinion on millions of people.
What's your nationality, may I ask?
Sarmatian
06-13-2012, 09:02
Funny how English, who "invented" football violence and are still most notorious hooligans around Europe get to preach on violence and racism.
Just shut up, let someone else do it.
gaelic cowboy
06-13-2012, 09:16
Well I actually seen it kicking off last night cos we were less than 100-150m from a huge crowd of lunatics trying to rush the police.
There wasnt much tension in the city centre earlier on in the day but then apparently it all happened at the march or some scuffles outside the fanzone.
I think allowing the match to be held on such a significant date for russians was wrong along with allowing the march and big flag too.
edit
there is something going on outside right now this morning I can hear lots of sirens and sound like three or four flashbangs maybe more.
seems to be calming down a bit they must have clamped down on it quick whatever it was this morning.
I now have the distinction of knowing the difference in sound between a large firework and a flashbang.
Also lets get real here these are just your typical scumbags attempting mayhem same as anywhere the city is perfectly safe (just keep your wits about you)
Funny how English, who "invented" football violence and are still most notorious hooligans around Europe get to preach on violence and racism.
Just shut up, let someone else do it.
You know where it was also violent,
Türkiye!
Absolutely not, Beatrix von Amsberg zur Lippe-Biesterfelt, or our queen as some call her, would never go there to raise a glass if any human rights were violated.
Wait
ajaxfetish
06-13-2012, 17:18
Funny how English, who "invented" football violence and are still most notorious hooligans around Europe get to preach on violence and racism.
Just shut up, let someone else do it.
Who are the English people doing the preaching? Kadagar's not English, Centurion's not, Fragony's not ... Is anyone who's posted yet in this thread even English besides Tiaexz (and his response didn't seem to have much preaching)?
Ajax
Centurion1
06-13-2012, 17:37
What's your nationality, may I ask?
More than ten different European nations an a smattering of Asia.
It's not a real dislike it's flippant in that I may make a "pollack" joke or something along those lines. I have friends who are polish it doesn't actually bother me.
Strike For The South
06-13-2012, 17:40
More than ten different European nations an a smattering of Asia.
It's not a real dislike it's flippant in that I may make a "pollack" joke or something along those lines. I have friends who are polish it doesn't actually bother me.
See the problem is you are not smart nor funny.
So you come off as being stupid.
But don't worry, some of my best friends are mouth breathing idiots.
Kadagar_AV
06-13-2012, 18:04
See the problem is you are not smart nor funny.
So you come off as being stupid.
But don't worry, some of my best friends are mouth breathing idiots.
It's not often that I agree with SFTS :)
See the problem is you are not smart nor funny.
So you come off as being stupid.
But don't worry, some of my best friends are mouth breathing idiots.
Oh Strike do we really have to teach you your own language, 'you are not smart nor funny' is a double negative, 'you are not smart or funny' or 'you are smart nor funny' is the way to go
Strike For The South
06-13-2012, 18:11
Oh Strike do we really have to teach you your own language, 'you are not smart nor funny' is a double negative, 'you are not smart or funny' or 'you are smart nor funny' is the way to go
Double negatives a not rules, only suggestions.
Good enough for Shakespere, good enough for me.
Double negatives a not rules, only suggestions.
Good enough for Shakespere, good enough for me.
Oh ouch, a double one that is serial faillure. Keep in mind that I don't actually like trainwrecks, I can just see them
Strike For The South
06-13-2012, 18:18
Oh ouch, a double one that is serial faillure. Keep in mind that I don't actually like trainwrecks, I can just see them
I have a learning disability?
Kadagar_AV
06-13-2012, 18:23
*finger to mouth* Schhhhh Frags...
Don't tell them, "I ain't no stupid" represents Texas to me :)
I have a learning disability?
I don't know you tell me
rory_20_uk
06-13-2012, 21:06
Next time use live ammo.
~:smoking:
Fragony correcting others on the fineties of grammar.
Tis truly not long to kingdom come.
HoreTore
06-13-2012, 22:06
Of all the brain-numbing stupidity sourounding this tournament, this isn't one of them. No nation is without hooligans and casuals.
No, there are actual cases of stupidity in euro 2012. I can name a few of them:
- giving it to Poland AND Ukraine was idiotic to begin with. Both nations could've hosted alone. Portugal has far less inhabitants than both countries and hosted alone. Belgium/netherlands was OK, as honestly they should just get over themselves and merge. Switzerland/Austria was stretching it. Poland/Ukraine is nonsense.
- Russian and Polish fans attended the germany-denmark match. No problem. Until they showed their mental deficiences and started singing to each other. A germany-denmark match is about Germany and Denmark. Not Poland and Russia. Idiots.
- No, Ukraine, you don't whistle at Sweden because they retain possession after taking the kick-off. Idiots. You support your own team. Booing at the opposition is appropriate when they act like dorks, not for having the ball.
Kralizec
06-13-2012, 22:50
Belgium/netherlands was OK, as honestly they should just get over themselves and merge. Switzerland/Austria was stretching it.
Huh? Both Belgium and the Neth's are more populous than either Switzerland or Austria.
HoreTore
06-13-2012, 22:52
Huh? Both Belgium and the Neth's are more populous than either Switzerland or Austria.
I was thinking of land area, not population... I know I wasn't very clear.
Going from a stadium in Ukraine to one in Poland takes a day, in Belgium/Netherlands it was a short train ride.
ajaxfetish
06-13-2012, 22:53
Oh Strike do we really have to teach you your own language, 'you are not smart nor funny' is a double negative, 'you are not smart or funny' or 'you are smart nor funny' is the way to go
Methinks you don't quite understand the English double negative, Frags (and I don't blame you). Nor has some idiosyncratic quirks; StfS's usage was just fine, even for Standard English.
Ajax
HoreTore
06-13-2012, 22:55
Methinks you don't quite understand the English double negative, Frags (and I don't blame you). Nor has some idiosyncratic quirks; StfS's usage was just fine, even for Standard English.
Ajax
Shouldn't it be "neither" instead of "not", though?
Shouldn't it be "neither" instead of "not", though?
Depends on whether you want to be high class or low class.
Kralizec
06-13-2012, 23:12
Fragony correcting others on the fineties of grammar.
Tis truly not long to kingdom come.
Shouldn't it be till kingdom come?
You know what, I don't think so!
ajaxfetish
06-13-2012, 23:32
Shouldn't it be "neither" instead of "not", though?
That's certainly the more common way to say it.
A search of the Corpus of Contemporary American yields the following number of occurrences (from a field of ~425 million words):
1394: neither [adjective] nor [adjective]
21: not [adjective] nor [adjective]
30: neither [adjective] or [adjective]
839: not [adjective] or [adjective]
208: [adjective] nor [adjective] (bare form with neither neither nor nor preceding it) <-- OK, I just made my own day with that one
So Fragony's alternatives are both more common than SftS's (which would support StfS's usage feeling unnatural to Frags compared to the others), but neither is as common as the neither ... nor option, which happens to have the same pair of negative elements as StfS's. If not ... nor is wrong because it's a double negative, then neither ... nor would be, too, and this is obviously not the case. Essentially, the restriction on double negatives in Standard English doesn't seem to apply to the word nor. There are plenty of structures where nor occurs freely with other negative elements.
Ajax
edit: as far as my personal intuition goes, SftS's usage doesn't sound odd or ungrammatical at all. It feels slightly more emphatic than the alternatives to me.
tibilicus
06-13-2012, 23:32
Holding the tournament in Poland and Ukraine was a a mistake from the off. Both have very big problems with racism, hooliganism and a general dislike for outsiders. The police, whilst trying their best simply aren't up to the challenge. If you were kicked and spat on for simply being a certain nationality, race or even a different football fan the police would be all over the perpetrator like a rash, that is anywhere in Western Europe. The police are either too used to it or harbor such views themselves which can be the only explanation for refusing to act upon such actions. Its quite sad, really, such a poor advert for an otherwise beautiful part of the world. Was actually considering visiting Poland this summer but I think I'll steer clear now.
It's just such a shame that what could have been an expression of Poland and Ukraine's arrival into modern Europe turned out to be the revelation that these two countries are brutal, backward and best avoided.
HoreTore
06-13-2012, 23:39
Yeah, what I reacted to most in the video with the indians being beaten up was that nobody intervened. Nobody helped them. No other supporters. No guards. No police. Just despicable.
Greyblades
06-13-2012, 23:47
I hate crowd mentalilty sometimes, being compelled to not help someone because the people around you arent, the idea makes me sick.
Montmorency
06-13-2012, 23:56
208: [adjective] nor [adjective]
I'm not sure I grasp this one. Can you give an example?
I'd think up "He is strong nor fast" - what does that mean? T is next to R on most keyboards, so might it just be a typo?
Tellos Athenaios
06-14-2012, 00:29
It's a (boolean) algebraic expression. As you might say 5 + 3 = 8, you can say Proposition1 NOR Proposition2 = (NOT Proposition1) AND (NOT Proposition2), otherwise known as one of the laws of De Morgan.
Montmorency
06-14-2012, 00:40
In conversation?
Son, in life there are winners XOR losers.
:inquisitive:
ajaxfetish
06-14-2012, 04:11
I'm not sure I grasp this one. Can you give an example?
I'd think up "He is strong nor fast" - what does that mean? T is next to R on most keyboards, so might it just be a typo?
Good question. That option struck me as weird as well. It took a different method of searching, since searching for "[adjective] nor [adjective]" returns all the instances with neither or not preceding them as well as any without, so I just subtracted the number of occurrences with each of those, which left 208 still behind. Looking through the results more carefully, it looks like most of these instances also have a neither or not associated with them, just not coming immediately before. For example, "neither well reasoned nor good," "neither totally tame nor wild," "neither inherently good nor bad."
In some cases, the not has been extracted into a higher clause: "... the process which I believe you do not think was bipartisan nor transparent," "I do not believe it wise nor proper to force employees to follow a set of values they do not accept."
There are instances without neither or not (whether immediately before the first adjective or a little further removed), and these cases have instead another negated word preceding them: "There are a lot of nutritionists who say nothing is bad nor good, it's just the amount," "with credit that is no longer cheap nor easy to obtain," "For there is no more reasonable nor powerful assumption ..."
After a little searching through the returns, I'm not finding any instances of nor without another negative first licensing it, and no such instances are coming readily to mind, either. Far from it being ungrammatical for nor to occur with another negative-marked word in English, I think it's obligatory.
Ajax
Sorry but you are wrong
'See the problem is you are not smart nor funny.'
Not and nor cancel eachother out.
So yes, either 'you are not smart or funny' or 'you are smart nor funny'
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 05:39
Am I the only one who have noticed how hot the Ukranian girls at large are though?
Fit bodies, cute faces... and white...
Am I the only one who have noticed how hot the Ukranian girls at large are though?
Fit bodies, cute faces... and white...
I usually dislike feminists because they never complain about inequality on the garbage-truck but I make an exception for the Femen girls, Ukrainian feminist group who understand that boobs gets them attention
http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/the-best-of-femen-nsfw
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 06:00
I usually dislike feminists because they never complain about inequality on the garbage-truck but I make an exception for the Femen girls, Ukrainian feminist group who understand that boobs gets them attention
http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/the-best-of-femen-nsfw
I wish that branch of feminism would spread to Sweden...
I wish that branch of feminism would spread to Sweden...
You just might get lucky when ski season opens, but you will get lucky anyway won't you
#15 by the way kthx
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 06:22
# 6 and # 23 <- why settle for one?
And what can I say, I am blessed :humble:
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 06:22
# 6 and # 23 <- why settle for one?
And what can I say, I am blessed :humble:
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 06:26
# 6 and # 23 <- why settle for one?
And what can I say, I am blessed :humble:
ajaxfetish
06-14-2012, 06:41
So yes, either 'you are not smart or funny' or 'you are smart nor funny'
Your first suggestion is okay. The second is not an English sentence.
Ajax
#23 sure has a very good set of personalities. Ok if I can choose more #14 and #15
Your first suggestion is okay. The second is not an English sentence.
Ajax
Yes it is
ajaxfetish
06-14-2012, 06:54
This English-speaker disagrees, and so does the internet. Google can find that sequence in only two places: one is this thread, and in the other it's preceded by a no one that makes it grammatical. Care to offer any support for your position besides 'Thus speaks Fragony'? If not, I've had enough talking to a brick wall for today--Back to your regularly scheduled football and politics!
Ajax
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 07:01
Diz da intrawebs be, we dunt speek grammar.
This English-speaker disagrees, and so does the internet. Google can find that sequence in only two places: one is this thread, and in the other it's preceded by a no one that makes it grammatical. Care to offer any support for your position besides 'Thus speaks Fragony'? If not, I've had enough talking to a brick wall for today--Back to your regularly scheduled football and politics!
Ajax
Sorry for upsetting you but it's really correct.
You are smart nor funny
You [aren't smart and neither are you] funny
Kralizec
06-14-2012, 07:59
Shouldn't it be till kingdom come?
You know what, I don't think so!
"Kingdom come" refers to an event in time. You wouldn't say "it's not long to tuesday", would you?
@ ajaxfetish: please tell Hax that he's wrong. Better yet: tell him that I'm right.
spankythehippo
06-14-2012, 08:16
Arguing about semantics on a thread about football violence? Good work, guys. :yes:
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 08:20
Arguing about semantics on a thread about football violence? Good work, guys. :yes:
In all fairness, that is what I like about this forum. It's so filled with freaks that you NEVER know where things are gonna end up...
Arguing about semantics on a thread about football violence? Good work, guys. :yes:
'IN' a thread, you are not sitting on it. The guy cleaning the roof isn't in school he's on it.
Gawd
Edit, it also puzzles me that you have yet to choose your Femen-chick. #6 and #23 are for the Swedish ski instructor and #14 and #15 for me, but a lot remain
spankythehippo
06-14-2012, 08:29
'IN' a thread, you are not sitting on it. The guy cleaning the roof isn't in school he's on it.
Gawd
We're not "in" the thread, are we? We're not part of the PHP of the forum. We just utilise it to post about something on a thread. I think. I actually have no idea.
I don't know. It doesn't sound right when I say it out aloud. "Arguing about semantics IN a thread about football violence?" Yep, it just doesn't sound right.
We're not "in" the thread, are we? We're not part of the PHP of the forum. We just utilise it to post about something on a thread. I think. I actually have no idea.
I don't know. It doesn't sound right when I say it out aloud. "Arguing about semantics IN a thread about football violence?" Yep, it just doesn't sound right.
Mind the edit. Even if you are right you are still doing it wrong.
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 08:46
Can I also have all of # 37 for the hung over sex the morning after?
And yes, you do need about that many if hung over. That way they can also entertain themselves, which lessens the burden in your fragile state.
spankythehippo
06-14-2012, 08:52
Edit, it also puzzles me that you have yet to choose your Femen-chick. #6 and #23 are for the Swedish ski instructor and #14 and #15 for me, but a lot remain
Is this targeted at me? Because I don't get it.
If I can have 36. If we dress them up nicely we can play chess with them, a game for gentlemen. My #15 can be the queen. And people wonder why I support women's rights
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 09:01
If I can have 36. If we dress them up nicely we can play chess with them, a game for gentlemen. My #15 can be the queen. And people wonder why I support women's rights
That wouldn't be anything but fair.
I was more looking forward to a game of Twister though...
EDIT: My bedsheets... (http://www.roomu.net/files/twister-edredon.jpg) ;)
spankythehippo
06-14-2012, 09:02
What the **** do the numbers mean?
That wouldn't be anything but fair.
I was more looking forward to a game of Twister though...
EDIT: My bedsheets... (http://www.roomu.net/files/twister-edredon.jpg) ;)
Striptwister, always a good idea
@spanky, the Femen chicks I posted earlier naturally http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/the-best-of-femen-nsfw Ukrainian feminists who get it right
spankythehippo
06-14-2012, 09:22
@spanky, the Femen chicks I posted earlier naturally http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/the-best-of-femen-nsfw Ukrainian feminists who get it right
OK. 6 & 23 are taken. So are 14 & 15.
*looks through site*
Hey! I like 6. She's pretty ni... ****, she's already taken.
OK. I'll take 31 and the one on the right for 3.
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 09:28
Isn't she also 16 and 22?
Or are they trins? If so, I regret not going with that option.
Glad you support our cause Spanky, women are NOT objects
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 09:35
Glad you support our cause Spanky, women are NOT objects
*But if they were, they would be pretty ******* nice objects*
*But if they were, they would be pretty ******* nice objects*
That's just sexist I apreciate character. Especially those of #14 small ones are better imho
spankythehippo
06-14-2012, 09:43
Isn't she also 16 and 22?
Or are they trins? If so, I regret not going with that option.
I think they are the same person.
Glad you support our cause Spanky, women are NOT objects
oh yeah...What? Oh yeah, totally. I completely support the thing you said about something I support.
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 10:00
That's just sexist I apreciate character. Especially those of #14 small ones are better imho
I don't know, I think #4 has a lot to say.
I don't know, I think #4 has a lot to say.
Depends on what type of character you are attracted to I guess, sometimes you just want to have a good conversation about this and that (that is how I nicknamed #14's). I feel that it's really important to be intellectually challenged in a relationship.
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 10:14
Depends on what type of character you are attracted to I guess, sometimes you just want to have a good conversation about this and that (that is how I nicknamed #14's). I feel that it's really important to be intellectually challenged in a relationship.
# 38 seem flexible in their opinions though, and # 27 seem to have a wide spread of beliefs.
Greyblades
06-14-2012, 10:19
... We have a babe thread for a reason gents.
# 38 seem flexible in their opinions though, and # 27 seem to have a wide spread of beliefs.
#38 is a bit cold though. But I agree on #27 I have always liked the more artistically forward. They do a supurb job at making you think about the challenges of modern life
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 10:29
... We have a babe thread for a reason gents.
Oh, but this is about politics...
Oh, but this is about politics...
Indeed. The most pressing matter at hand is wether or not they agree this rag I hold here smells like chloroform, if we don't ask who will?
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 10:45
Indeed. The most pressing matter at hand is wether or not they agree this rag I hold here smells like chloroform, if we don't ask who will?
I have another "matter" at hand...
Sarmatian
06-14-2012, 12:34
Who are the English people doing the preaching? Kadagar's not English, Centurion's not, Fragony's not ... Is anyone who's posted yet in this thread even English besides Tiaexz (and his response didn't seem to have much preaching)?
Ajax
Sol Campbell is, in that link Beskar posted... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18192375
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 14:10
BTW, I do actually have some understanding for Feme. Womens rights has NOT come a long way in Ukraine, and I guess that in a country like that they need to take to extremes to get their voice heard.
And let's face it, boobs sell. From a PR perspective it is a stroke of genius.
Problem is that I think they will be seen, but not heard. Men might get... distracted... to say the least.
BTW, I do actually have some understanding for Feme. Womens rights has NOT come a long way in Ukraine, and I guess that in a country like that they need to take to extremes to get their voice heard.
And let's face it, boobs sell. From a PR perspective it is a stroke of genius.
Problem is that I think they will be seen, but not heard. Men might get... distracted... to say the least.
Oh jokes asides, I fully support these girls. Feminists here are mostly man-haters who want freeriding, these babes are actually discriminated against in a most horrible way. They should just come here imho, same for arab women. Here they can have a life without worrying, nobody will bother them in any way. But power to them if they want to change their part of the world instead.
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 14:53
My skier heart cries when "freeriding" is used as a negative term ;)
Oh, so you are against MALE arab immigration now? I always thought Ali G's idea on immigration is brilliant... Accept only HOT girls.
Tellos Athenaios
06-14-2012, 14:57
In conversation?
Son, in life there are winners XOR losers.
:inquisitive:
Of course not. But strange and unfamiliar does not invalidate its use. For example, "begging the question" does not mean strictly the same as "prompting the question" yet the two are used interchangeably in normal conversation, if begging the question were used "correctly" you would probably find it an odd turn of phrase. Similarly, "tautology" is a term in formal logic which means a statement that is always true, such as "right or wrong". But in rhetoric "completely and utterly" is a tautology despite in terms of formal logic it really is not.
This is already the best thread ever.
Also, better tell me I'm right. You don't want me to turn into one of those radicalised terrorists.
Of course not. But strange and unfamiliar does not invalidate its use. For example, "begging the question" does not mean strictly the same as "prompting the question" yet the two are used interchangeably in normal conversation, if begging the question were used "correctly" you would probably find it an odd turn of phrase. Similarly, "tautology" is a term in formal logic which means a statement that is always true, such as "right or wrong". But in rhetoric "completely and utterly" is a tautology despite in terms of formal logic it really is not.
Exactly the other way around, right or wrong is no tautoligy. White snow is an tautoligy, green grass is one, right or wrong however is not
Kralizec
06-14-2012, 15:20
"White snow" is a pleonasm. A tautology is an actual sentence that repeats itself, or at least that's what they teach in language classes. TA is talking about formal logic though and I wouldn't know about that.
Tellos Athenaios
06-14-2012, 15:23
Hmm, something tells me you missed the bit about formal logic. Obligatory lazy wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)
Back to the topic of rhetoric: you're still wrong. White snow is what your teacher called "pleonasm". That's basically a tautology from rhetoric except by implication (the adjective/adverb could be left out as it is otherwise implied). That's in the name, pleonasm might be loosely translated as "lot of words". Round circles, red blood, etc.
Hmm, something tells me you missed the bit about formal logic. Obligatory lazy wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)
Back to the topic of rhetoric: you're still wrong. White snow is what your teacher called "pleonasm". That's basically a tautology from rhetoric except by implication (i.e. the adjective/adverb could be left out as it is otherwise implied). Round circles, red blood, etc.
You are right, but you still suck as right and wrong is still not an tautoligy
Edit Heer en meester, screw it you got me
Strike For The South
06-14-2012, 16:00
I WIN
I HAVE THE BEST GRAMMAR
I WIN
I HAVE THE BEST GRAMMAR
No it sucks skippyballs through a straw, that bad. This was just about pleonasm controversy. TA said something right for a change we all do at some point
Tellos Athenaios
06-14-2012, 17:12
I WIN
I HAVE THE BEST GRAMMAR
Strike, you're losing it. Not a single spelling or grammar mistake in a whole post.
Also: cut us some slack. I've been testing software for an MP3 server project, and I didn't pick the test tracks. Don't underestimate what "American Idiot" set to repeat ad nauseam can do to a person.
You didn't just test it you obviously merged and transcended
ajaxfetish
06-14-2012, 22:22
Back to Semantics!
@ Hax & Kralizek
Here's what I can turn up after a little digging into to vs. till, and their appropriateness before kingdom come.
According to the OED, till was originally the Old Norse equivalent of native English to, so they start out with the same meaning, just in different languages. Till is borrowed into English, at least in the north, very early on, and is already in use by the 800s. While it seems likely that they each started out with a spatial meaning, indicating the end location of some movement, they have also both expanded to have many other functions. Probably due to their inherent semantic similarity, the additional functions they've gained are almost identical; however, in many cases, one or the other (usually to) has won out and is now the only one of the two used for a given function.
Major functions:
to mark a spatial goal: I went to the store; I went till the store (till no longer has this function except in Scotland and the north of England)
to mark a dative: Listen to me; Listen till me (till no longer has this function except in Scotland and the north of England)
to mark a purpose: I hired you to do this job; I hired you till do this job (till no longer has this function except in Scotland)
to mark the infinitive generally: Get him to give me a lift; Get him till give me a lift (till no longer has this function except in Scotland)
to mark a time goal: From morning till evening; From morning to evening (both still current)
So for the most part, to has been the dominant alternative, except in Scotland and the neighboring parts of England, where till has more traction. The exception is in the time sense, where till (and its compounded form until) remains in common use in English generally. In fact, it can be used in this sense in places to cannot.
I'll wait for you till morning
?I'll wait for you to morning
She'll be there till she graduates
*She'll be there to she graduates
Nonetheless, to can still be used in plenty of cases with this temporal meaning: business hours run from ten to six; parliament is postponed to the 10th of February; some maintain that to this day she is a living child, you should see it from beginning to end, etc. So, without considering the context, both till and to are potentially acceptable words to mark an endpoint in time.
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As for the specific context of controversy, Hax's original statement was this: "Tis truly not long to kingdom come." To here is being used in the temporal sense, with kingdom come serving as the endpoint in time. A quick comparison of the phrases to kingdom come and till kingdom come on COCA yields the following:
till kingdom come--6 occurrences
to kingdom come--47 occurrences
On the surface, this makes it look like to kingdom come is the preferred choice, but there's a complicating factor.
All instances of till kingdom come use kingdom come as a goal in time, but this is not the case for to kingdom come. The majority of these cases (25) are instances of the idiom "blow X to kingdom come," and many of those remaining (13) are variants of this metaphor, just using other verbs in place of blow (blast, bomb, nuke, knock, kick, whack, sue). While 'kingdom come' presumably refers to the arrival of God's kingdom on the earth (a future event and not a location), and thus a temporal rather than spatial destination, my impression is that it has lost this temporal sense in this idiom. Blowing someone to kingdom come isn't generally used in my experience to mean, say, repeatedly exploding them until the world comes to its end, but rather blowing them up so completely that they go out of existence, but with the explosion happening all at once. Kingdom come then represents an end state rather than an ending time, and till would not be appropriate in most of the English-speaking world. While some of the other verbs would be more appropriate for a repeated action, the end-state meaning nonetheless seems more prominent to me for all of these ones.
For some of the remaining instances, a spatial meaning seems most likely (chase to kingdom come, drive to kingdom come, glide to kingdom come), though temporal or end-state interpretations are at least plausible. For another, talking about George Bush and Korea, kingdom come seems to represent a level of intensity rather than a spatial or temporal destination: "by ratcheting up threats to kingdom come."
For the others, a temporal meaning seems more reasonable, though the end-state meaning may be intended instead. The first may be about the ridiculous time spent doing the cooking or the end state of the vegetables, the next two contrast kingdom come to now in what is clearly a time relationship, and for the last two, kingdom come is apparently serving as a euphemism for orgasm, which could be thought of either as a time or as an end-state.
That night I cook minestrone and joke about how Italians cook vegetables to kingdom come.
Our collective butts will all be persona non grata here from now to kingdom come!
Another reason she never loved me, although she'd deny it from now to Kingdom Come, is that I was born with one leg a bit shorter than the other and I walk with a slight limp.
Talking about it made me want to climb on top of him and ride him to kingdom come.
Your guy thrusts faster and harder as you get closer to kingdom come.
Hax's use of to kingdom come is a temporal one, and COCA seems to show an approximately even split between the use of till and to in this function, though to is more strongly associated with kingdom come generally. My intuition agrees with this, and I'd have to say both till kingdom come and to kingdom come sound perfectly natural in the context Hax used.
Ajax
HoreTore
06-14-2012, 22:48
:smash:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-14-2012, 23:05
I, on the other hand, would say that Hax has made a classic non-native mistake and the question is uncomplicated.
"till Kingodm come" means "until the end of time" (his meaning) "to kingdom come" means "going/sending to the the next life"
Ergo, "till Kingdom come" is idiomatically correct
Eeven though "unto Kingdom come" makes sense gramatically we just don't use it, it has become an anachronism.
You can take that for whatever you think it's worth.
Greyblades
06-14-2012, 23:13
Well. You've sucessfully made football a more enticing topic than I ever thought possible by creating one even stupider.
I hate you all.
Kadagar_AV
06-14-2012, 23:24
On the other side of the world, something miraculous happens...
What is it with this Euro Cup that makes people just.... GET IT!?
I never thought I'd be so for either weather reports nor un-opposed feminism...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=soYwHcdVqNk
Montmorency
06-14-2012, 23:47
I went till the store
So "I went up to (not including?) the store". I've heard this usage throughout the East Coast.
Blowing someone to kingdom come isn't generally used in my experience to mean, say, repeatedly exploding them until the world comes to its end,
I'm gonna knock you (in)to next week for that!
I, on the other hand, would say that Hax has made a classic non-native mistake and the question is uncomplicated.
Absolutely not. While I won't deny that my English is not perfect, I'm fully aware of the semantic differences between till Kingdom come and to Kingdom come. In fact, I paused for a bit while writing my post, but in the end, I opted for the archaic version.
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