Rome 2 Total War and Europa Barbarorum [Archive]

wangchang

07-03-2012, 05:55

Rome 2 total war as been announced as many of you must have seen.
Like in the previous rome, they might commit the same mistake of depicting the northern european factions as mindless, stereotypical, hollywoodian Barbarian.
I know that this team initial goal was exactly to correct this by putting more emphasis on those cultures, hence the name Europa Barbarorum.
I also think that you contacted CA in the development phase of rome total war in order to convince them to depict northern european more accurately, and give them the civilized look they deserved.

The time as come to defend to get up and defend those civilization again.
This time, CA might be more receptive : it's been almost 10 year since rome total war, CA must have undergone many change. In the employee section as well as in the overall direction. Just look at the historical accuracy of shogun 2 total war compared to rome total war : CA put an accent on this accuracy.
But, I fear that many in CA, even in the history department still have that sterotypical view of the gauls,germans,britons of less civilized than the roman,greeks...

However i'm pretty sure that this time, CA would be more receptive, considering the reason mentioned above and also the fact that they are still in very early development and apparently did not already conceive the factions.

It's time to fulfill this mod's team initial goal : to raise awareness in CA about the refinement and complexity of the northern european civilization (celts and germans to be more precise), and prevent their depiction as generic primitive men.

So are you going to contact CA like you did 8 years ago? Now is the best time to act, since the game is still in very early phase, and CA might be very receptive. They must even be searching documentation right now on this time period.

It's now or never, let's do it :thumbsup2

PS : I will post this message in many europa barbarorum forums/sections, since i'm not sure which one is active and which one isn't, and I think it should be discussed in the most active section. Thanks for your comprehension :) .

EDIT : PS :

I made a thread in the rome 2 total war section of the TWcenter forums. My name in those forums is akarnir. I was banned because of a misunderstanding, but they agreed to keep the thread :) .

It's about how the Gauls should be depicted more accurately in the next total war forums, how their cities should have more majesty and how their unit should look less generic (translate to : they should look like in Europa Barbarorum :) ).

The link is here : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=548834

I also look up to you guys to participate and keep the thread alive. If this thread becomes big, CA might get aware of the matter. It's the best way to inform them if they aren't already.

So don't hesitate to go in this thread : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=548834 and to participate in the debate, add more informations, and defend this cause.

Thanks :), I really hope this thread get the attention it deserve.

Cybvep

07-03-2012, 08:53

Don't get your hopes up. Historical accuracy has never been a priority for CA. Gauls and Germans are nothing - I wouldn't be surprised if the Egyptians were depicted in the same way they were depicted in RTW1 and it was simply idiotic...

If the game is moddable, things like that won't be a big issue, but if it isn't...

Blxz

07-03-2012, 10:13

Nothing will change. EB is a drop in the ocean compared to the number of people who will be buying Rome 2 expecting 'normal' history. CA want their version of gameplay not history dominated stuff.

I am still reading people in other forums saying they want other games to be more historical and character driven so they can play one of the "3 great roman factions like the julii, scipii and brutii". Hmm, i wonder where they got their 'history' from?
Its a little sad, but I suspect more of the same from Rome 2.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

07-03-2012, 10:42

I think the team will watch this with interest, certainly I will, though I cannot speak for others.

As regards contacting CA - I'm afraid that this game will have been in development since Shogan II was released, if not since Empire, certainly all concepting and research will be done and I don't think it would be fruitful to contact CA again. For one thing, we have already made a strong pitch with EBI which demonstrated that historical accuracy can be accessable and fun. I would be very surprised if some of EB's content isn't reflected in Rome 2, not least because we provided huge amounts of "unit Porn" for them.

wangchang

07-03-2012, 15:05

Yet, if you don't try you cannot know for sure. The release is planned in late 2013, so they still have a lot of work to do. Right now they must still be working on the engine and technical stuff, the units and faction will be done in the last year of development.

You have nothing to loose with trying and you don't know but i'm pretty sure CA has changed this time : have you seen shogun 2 total war ? Everything was historically accurate, units were extremely accurately detailed as well as factions, even to the point of boringness because they didn't add other factions like mongols (since they never came in japan it would have been inaccurate) and they didn't created fancy units to make factions different. In their last 3 games : Napoleon, shogun 2 and fall of the samurai, they focused a lot on historical accuracy, even winning an award in napoleon from the college of historian.
Their employees and direction changed in 8 years, so the new team may be more receptive.

Also don't forget that you (the team) are not the same as 8 year before. You have gained a lot of notability and you have a huge reputation, surely within CA itself.
You will have way more credibility than 8 year before : this will be the team that made the biggest and very popular mod for rome total war that will advise CA, not just random people like 8 years ago.

I don't think CA has any interest in depicting them as savage, but they probably didn't really paid attention to the matter and might end up reusing the old set. But if you warn them, they might realize. With your reputation , they will probably consider you as independent expert now because of your reputation, and company tend to hear experts.

In the end, if nobody tells them, they won't bother to pay attention to the problem if they haven't noticed. But if YOU, europa barbarorum team tells them, there is a good chance that they notice and act accordingly. Also, they can be lazy and maybe they haven't really begin their research work on all faction (they don't really have a lot of historians working for them). So if you provide them with the information about the germans/celts factions and they will probably take it, too happy not to have to research it themselves (so no paying for extra research).
Considering you reputation, they will see you as independent experts, giving them advice for free and making them win a good amount of time and money.

In the end I think it's really worth trying again. The odds are not the same as before : CA changed, and YOU changed, you gained a huge lot of reputation and notability and proved, even to CA, that you can be considered as experts.

IT'S A ONCE IN A LIFETIME CHANCE! Take it, you won't have the occasion again, you have all to win, nothing to loose.

Moros

07-03-2012, 16:24

8 years ago we did indeed contact CA. This time I don't know if it would be needed or be usefull. Personally I've seen no images or information on historical concepts, units, factions,... They did however say they will make every faction unique. That's all the information out there.

Personally I don't feel we should be telling CA, or anyone else how to make a game. They know about us and if they need historical information they can just read our previews and our information in EB I. They know where to find us. Of course if they want more information from us, we'd be happy to help and they'd just have to contact one of us.

TinCow

07-03-2012, 16:42

Personally I've seen no images or information on historical concepts, units, factions

I pulled a bunch of information out of the various news articles and interviews that got released yesterday, and compiled it here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?141870-Announced-Features-of-TWR2-10). As expected for an initial game announcement, there's not much to go on. However, they did specifically list a bunch of factions: Gaul, Germanic Tribes, Carthage, Egypt, Parthia, Dacia, and Cappadocia, as well as multiple Roman factions.

Moros

07-03-2012, 16:52

I pulled a bunch of information out of the various news articles and interviews that got released yesterday, and compiled it here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?141870-Announced-Features-of-TWR2-10). As expected for an initial game announcement, there's not much to go on. However, they did specifically list a bunch of factions: Gaul, Germanic Tribes, Carthage, Egypt, Parthia, Dacia, and Cappadocia, as well as multiple Roman factions.
They said no faction from the original is going to be left out as well.
About the Roman factions isn't that speculation from the writer of the article?

Edit:Wangchang, if you want to list your ideas and wishes, you might want to post them here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?141876-Wishlist-for-Rome-2-%28and-beyond%29
Perhaps they get spotted by CA there.

TinCow

07-03-2012, 18:33

About the Roman factions isn't that speculation from the writer of the article?

I got it from this bit (http://www.pcgamesn.com/totalwar/total-war-rome-2-preview-every-question-answered):

That’ll be even more given that Russell hints at something similar to Fall of the Samurai’s Realm Divide mechanic for the Roman factions - Empire or Republic seems like a likely choice.

True, it's not a direct quote from CA, but the speculation seems to the Realm Divide mechanic, not "the Roman factions." Plus, they also said the Senate was it's own thing with it's own agenda... and that Rome can turn into an Empire, which means a Roman Civil War. Hard to have a civil war with only one faction. And, if they're including all the original factions, that means Julii, Brutii, and Scipii as well.

So, you are right that it hasn't been directly confirmed yet, but I'd put the odds at about 99.5%.

wangchang

07-03-2012, 18:48

You have more chance, being to europa barbarorum team to have your ideas spotted by CA than me. It's not worth trying for me.
But for you it's worth it. Honnestly, if you don't tell CA they won't go check on your forums, lets be realistic. But if you contact CA and make a comprehensive argumentation, there is a good chance that you will get their attention.
The simple step will be enough just to get their attention. Of all the hundreds of sources that exist, why would CA spontaneously go to your forums? You have to make the demarche to get their attention amongst all the other sources they could go see. You have to stand out, and the best way to do this is to contact them.

It's just like a job : if you want to have one particular job, you have to contact the employer, else he will not spontaneously contact you amongst all the thousands possible candidate.

If you make the effort of exposing them your knowledge and viewpoint, they will surely take it into account, considering your status as a very successful mod team.
There is also a good chance that you contact them while the are about the begin the faction creation phase : just at the right moment. At that point they will be more than happy to receive free, complete and comprehensive information from a really reputable source. It will save them a lot of money and time since the design, the descriptions have all been done and are adapted for a total war game.
This is the good time to strike. Don't assume they won't hear you without even trying : that is lame and it's like spoiling a dream chance.
I'm, looking up to you guys :) I know you can do it.

I_damian

07-03-2012, 22:03

wangchang

07-03-2012, 22:23

Oh well, I contacted them anyhow with an email and pretty much begged them to draw on the work of the EB team when they make the game, rather than Hollywood like in Rome 1. It wouldn't take them any extra work to do so - if anything it would be easier as the EB team already did all their research for them and compiled it in to handy dandy faction previews, and also that it would still sell just as good if it had some realism. However, after seeing how realistic Shogun 2 was I do have some hope that it won't be a disney freakshow like before, with bright colourful lorica segmenta wearing Romans and Egyptian Pharaoh soldiers and battlefield assassins.

I had those hopes to but then I heard, in the lead designer interview, a sentence that bothered me : ''Barbarians in the forest and exotic empires in the east''. the interview is here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tycIeIDUbw&feature=relmfu
, I made a comment about this that is still in the top comment but I fear they will go for the hollywood barbarian look again, out of ignorance.

The problem is that a random dude sending them like you and me will have almost no credibility, they will probably not read the mail.

The best would be if the team's leaders contact them on behalf of the whole EB community. If they make an official approach , on behalf of one of the most successful mod and the most accurate one, they will have a lot of credibility, and they will raise awareness amongst CA. This approach will also encourage CA to follow this lead, at the crucial moment when they will start the full design of the civilization, or while they are doing it. It will have it's weight, and it might even help to give credibility to some CA member who are arguing for the same side.

Making an official approach will put the question on the table at CA, so they will carefully pay attention to it, whatever they planned in the first place, and they may choose the accuracy option, like they did in shogun2 or napoleon.

It's a chance to take, knowing that the game might not be modable, we cannot take the risk of seeing the Celts and Germans stuck with the barbaric savage role for the rest of our playtime!

bobbin

07-03-2012, 23:30

Jack Lusted confirmed that the Romans will be one faction here (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=11665598#post11665598). I suspect all this talk of multiple "factions" is about internal divisions and such like.

As for the EB team writing a letter to CA like before I don't see the need to, the existence of the mod already does the job far better and CA are well aware of our work. When CraigTW posted about the current modding situation last year (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=463622), EB was specifically singled out as an example of the value of mods.

wangchang

07-04-2012, 02:42

As for the EB team writing a letter to CA like before I don't see the need to, the existence of the mod already does the job far better and CA are well aware of our work. When CraigTW posted about the current modding situation last year (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=463622), EB was specifically singled out as an example of the value of mods.

I get your point, I know CA is well aware of this mod existence and exemplarily. Yet, that doesn't mean that the ''historian'' team of TatW will think of your mod when they will design the factions, they not even be aware of your mod : CA is a big company, not all employee are really aware of the forum activity, and CA may not necessarily find the need to inform them on the modding situation. When they are in the process of designing the factions, they may even be impressed that the Europa Barbarorum team contact them and recall them of the huge amount of information they compiled. It's more about reminding them at the crucial moment than informing them.

moonburn

07-04-2012, 04:11

relax ca knows eb exists and as i stated in a thread when shogun2 came out both groups have far more to gain then to loose by ignoring each other

ofc ca won´t make a totally historical game but they can borrow alot from eb particulary the eye candy stuff and quite a few game mechanics and quite a few units wich are just amazing they´ll never leave out the brithein or the solduros or the orcas or the agematos i mean seriously they are blockbusters on their own

also since they introduced merchants in medieval 2 they will probably also take on all the merchant roads that eb as already set up for them and maybe go as far as extending the map as eb did to include backtria i mean baktria on it´s own would be mind bogling and an extraordinary trump card in terms of marketing if you also add the takashilans and the sauka rauka it gives you the chance to tap into the chinese market (the basin is nowadays part of china) and the indian market and who doesn´t want a 2.8 billion people market ? ca ain´t dumb and they probably recognised the potential of making the game atractive to indians and chinese by having them represented (even if not in their full glory )

also there´s a game mechanics that it´s hard to code in but might give the internal strugle and war that it takes wich is when 1 faction dies that faction slot can be recycled so that when civil war happens that open faction slot can take in the rebelious factions so a roman civil war (when rome is the 1st nation in the game ) can degenerate into 3/5 diferent factions with powerfull families on one side the senate on the other and the rebellious slave/protectorates rising in independence

that would allow a breaking into the jewish market by allowing the maccabians or whatever their name was to be an emerging faction and whoever says the jewish can say the illergetten or celtiberians or lussitanians or belgians or whatever faction that has fictionalised 19th century conections to nowaday nations wich opens more doors to more markets including the ukranian and russian and polish with the luigians the basternae and bosphorians or sauromatae both extremly atractive markets nowadays

also another finepoint by eb is the introduction of level4 goverments with puppet kings or mercenary generals thats one inovation they can´t ignore it makes the game more fun realistic and even 13 year old kids hooked on stimulants such as colas and other sugary beverages/foods will love it and praise ca and totalwar for it overall eb1 was the beta phase of rometotalwar2 and eb2 will be the realtotalwar2 and rometotalwar2 only has to have a better diplomacy and a stouter game engine to be the ultimate strategy totalwar game

there´s like a shitload of ways that ca can screw this up and fail to get the new generation of gamers hooked on their products but they already have the recipy and the ingredients with eb it´s all up to their cooking habilities (creating a proper game engine) to make sure they suceed or phail

wangchang

07-04-2012, 05:06

I agree with what you said, yet reminding CA that they should use this modd to design their factions will not hurt anybody. They might not think about using those modds, espceially since not everyone in CA's team know about the extent and magnitude of the modds out there.

It's more about reminding them. In a time were they are searching for sources and information, if one of those source reminds them they they can use it's contents, then they have more chance to use it.

capomafioso

07-04-2012, 10:44

something i hope that is included in rome 2, which isnt even a difficult thing to implement, is the languages. One thing i loved about EB is that it has romans speaking latin, greeks speaking ancient greek, and so on, this is something that i tried to implement myself many times into vanilla rtw and couldnt do, but nothing breaks the feeling of being an ancient general like hearing "were under attack!" in plain english.

probably though this wont be happening

edit: regarding the voicemods, nothing made me happier than hearing the correct pronounciations, with "v"s being pronounced as "w"s and phy in somatophylakes.

Jormungand

07-04-2012, 15:16

wangchang

07-04-2012, 15:29

HAHAHA i'm in this war too :P . Just look at one guy in the top comments saying some bullshit about how celts were more backwards than romans. We should all go defend the celts/german right in this page.

Shigawire

07-04-2012, 17:09

I look forward to this, regardless. :)

Ironduke

07-04-2012, 18:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clone1710
Will the germans, celts etc. look more realistic in terms of armor, weapons and clothing? (like in the Europa Barbarorum Mod)

Originally Posted by JackLusted
A question I can answer now (being unit design lead and all). There will be a lot of diversity between the various 'Barbarian' factions. Certainly based in history

Jack Lusted made that comment in the Q&A thread here. That means somthing, right?

Jormungand

07-04-2012, 19:01

wangchang

07-04-2012, 19:53

Loving the little YouTube debate me and wangchang are having on the TWR2 YouTube page.

wangchang, since we've pretty much filled up the whole comments box there, perhaps we should discuss our own personal debate regarding Rome 2 Total War here, and pool our strength on the YouTube page against those who insult Celts, and un-Romans as mere, derogatory "barbarians"? After all, we're both together on that issue :D

Yeah i completely agree. I also agree that at it's peak, in the imperial era, the roman civilization had a level of advancement far superior to anybody, so we both agree on that point. I think that during the war of the Gauls, both romans and Gauls were as advanced.
What I rage on is that one of the top comments basically state that Gauls had a level of culture far inferior from the carthaginians, greeks or republican roman, which is completely false. At the time of rome total war (200BC to 0AD) They were as advanced as the big power of the Mediterranean.

wangchang

07-04-2012, 19:54

DELETE : DOUBLE POST SORRY

wangchang

07-04-2012, 19:58

fightermedic

07-04-2012, 20:36

Jack Lusted is a former modder and now works for CA, so this is an official statement, yes

moonburn

07-05-2012, 02:44

a dude over at totalwar center or whatever it´named called eb nitpicking i was almost tempeted to go into an argument with him but i decided to refrain no good can come out of calling stupid people stupid right ...

Jormungand

07-05-2012, 02:53

Culture's a different bag altogether, yes. Ranking culture, saying one is "inferior" to another, is (sorry to repeat myself) incredibly subjective and biased. In my opinion the Gauls had as rich and diverse a culture as any Mediterranean civilization/nation.

Ibrahim

07-05-2012, 04:23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tycIeIDUbw&feature=relmfu

There's a huge war going on at the Rome 2 Total War Designer Interview vid on YouTube. I've tried to enter the fray here against some particularly unscrupulous individuals, to quote for example -

"For all intents and purposes, everyone outside of Rome is a barbarian. What is the big ****ing deal?
Get the **** over it. "

Until now I've persistently reminded myself not to get dragged into the endless conundrum that is the YouTube argument. Sorry. This is an issue dear to my heart here. Couldn't resist...

experience has taught me to keep your reply short, simply, to the point, and best of all, piercing. That is even if you dare to do that--something I advise against.

beyond that, the previews were meh, I'm not particularly interested, and I don't hold high hopes. (that one trailer though did have one fine specimen--if you follow :clown:)

EDIT: I don't have high hopes, as the games lately have been particularly hard to mod (Empire has been adding a few extra gray hairs on me), the AI has barely progressed--perhaps except in moddability, and even then, it's not what I would hope for. Even if the tying of diplomatic and military AI is achieved, there is no guarantee that it will be improved: it just means that if they screw up, both will be screwed up. further, I would like a model type that with minimal scripting I can port easily to 3dsmax: something the developers apparently found a bit too hard lately: all current methods are a hassle. I could go on about the difficulties I've encountered, but I'll desist--for now.

wangchang

07-05-2012, 16:01

EDIT: I don't have high hopes, as the games lately have been particularly hard to mod (Empire has been adding a few extra gray hairs on me)

That is my my fear to. This is why to best thing to do is make sure vanilla total war will be already decently accurate. Reminding them they can use EB work is a good way to do this. If along the billions source they could use, one remind them they can use her, they will surely consider it. Especially if this source is EB, the most accurate mod out there, one of the most popular mod. All the work will have already been done.
Let us not take the risk to think that the designer team will be wise enough to go check europa barbarorum by themselves. THE RISK IS TOO HIGH.

SO I appeal to the team leaders : PLEASE CONTACT THEM ON BEHALF OF THE WHOLE TEAM.

thanks

Khazar_Dahvos

07-06-2012, 00:12

i too hope for a historical accurate game like EB, but unfortunately we are a small percentage!!! Average gamers dont really give a flying @$%& about historical accuracy or inaccuracy....they wouldnt know the difference. In fact getting to much historical detail would bore alot of the (average) gamers. It wouldnt bother me so much if i knew how moddible it will be. But if its anything like Empire then i dont have much hope!!! Its not about pleasing the minority its about selling to the masses for alot of $$$$.

Moros

07-06-2012, 00:41

That is my my fear to. This is why to best thing to do is make sure vanilla total war will be already decently accurate. Reminding them they can use EB work is a good way to do this. If along the billions source they could use, one remind them they can use her, they will surely consider it. Especially if this source is EB, the most accurate mod out there, one of the most popular mod. All the work will have already been done.
Let us not take the risk to think that the designer team will be wise enough to go check europa barbarorum by themselves. THE RISK IS TOO HIGH.

SO I appeal to the team leaders : PLEASE CONTACT THEM ON BEHALF OF THE WHOLE TEAM.

thanks

No need to shout. Jack Lusted as has been said before is a former modder, now working for CA and he like other people from CA know about us and knows where to find us, and even have been here before...

wangchang

07-06-2012, 16:16

Ah sorry i'm not shouting. When I write in caps its just to put emphasis on important stuff. I agree there can be confusion, I will use something else. :)

wangchang

07-06-2012, 16:18

Arjos

07-06-2012, 16:24

Just ask for moddability lol
Like that everyone is happy and there's no need to call any third parties or whatever...

Will they ever listen? Probably not...
If they need any help they have the resources or contacts to do so, but what matters are sales...

Jormungand

07-06-2012, 16:42

Yeah those 12 year old/22 year old douchebags/16 year old teen in angst are really ruining game experience todays. Not it's all about pleasing their almost dead brains.

Hahaha, I was a "16 year old teen in angst" when I first made the informed decision to move to EB, and have never looked back since...
:P

About the "dead brains", I can sort of make out what you're saying though. Of recent years, at least, the game market has been seemingly pandering more to actiony, fast-paced games with a huge emphasis on multiplayer - for example, the dominance of the Call of Duty and Battlefield franchises.
Go back about ten years however, there were so many more story-driven games with long campaigns and also a greater cut in the market for the RTS genre (i.e. the popularity of the TW + Age of Empires series back then). Back in those days, you actually had to think about what you were playing a lot more!

It's sad times have changed...

GenosseGeneral

07-06-2012, 16:51

Yeah those 12 year old/22 year old douchebags/16 year old teen in angst are really ruining game experience todays. Not it's all about pleasing their almost dead brains.

I am 18, playing EB for 3 years now (really? that long already?) and I find this offensive. :clown:

But seriously, if they want to use the information, it's all there in EB/EBII previews and if they need more, CA can easily contact the EB team. They do definitely know about this mod and will have it in mind while making Rome II.
One quote reminded me especially of EB's philosophy: A developer said that they want 'to offer the player the ancient world as it was in, lets say 325 BC, open to be shaped.'

The idea of Province consisting of smaller pieces comes in my opnion from DotS where they want have multiple PSFs in a region which influence the region's income by script.

And the idea of legions with more personality could hail from Roma Surrectum (don't they have multiple, different legions for the romans?).

So at least they seem to utilise (exploit?) ideas from the modding community.

EB rocks

07-06-2012, 17:57

i have an idea Wangchang start a poll asking people whether the eb team should contact ca or not.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

07-06-2012, 21:07

I'm pretty certain that there will be plenty that CA will take into account from EB/EB2; however, unlike the EB/EB2 team, CA have not just to make a great, historical game, but also a profit on the investmen made by the company they work for. There is a difference between a labour of love and labour for profit.

Whatever benefits the new game might bring (I'm impressed by the scale of the city of Carthage in the images that I have seen, the fact that cities/settlements can be individually designed; the possibility of a much expanded map - with many more regions (and the province/region mechanism seems an interesting idea, if done right...), huge battles, naval warfare, improved AI (we'll see...) etc.) what we really have to hope for is... modability.

So, perhaps what we need to lobby for is modability within certain areas. What are the most important areas for modding, and what scope in those areas is realistically attainable and desirable.

Moros

07-06-2012, 22:25

On the modability side we might actually have some good news! :)

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?141926-RTW-II-and-Modding-good-news&p=2053464130#post2053464130

Khazar_Dahvos

07-06-2012, 23:08

makes me feel alot better that at least they are trying!!

wangchang

07-06-2012, 23:14

On topic, this is A post I made in the TWcenter forums, in the rome 2 total war sections. The problem is that I was banned from those forums because they think I am an alt account and other misunderstandings.

I have decided to register on those forums after I learnt that they were making a new total. I'm ususally not very found on posting sugestions or advices for games, since devellopers almost never read them, but I found out this wasn't the case on those forum and that CA is pretty much more attuned. Also the community seems great and really enthousiatic when it comes to discussing stuff like game design.

Ok so now to the point: I simply loved the first rome total war, but some stuff disapointed me in the vanilla version : mainly the many historical inaccuracies in the game. It could go from simple details to a whole factions depiction. And about depiction, four factions were particularly affected : The Egyptians, the germans, the Britons AND the GAULS.

Now I saw that a thread about the egyptians was already made in the section, so i'm not going to talk too much about them. I'm not going to talk too much about germans and britons, since I think that the Britons, germans and Gauls are all an unique case and should not be put into the same basket.
Since i've been an exchange students in france during 2 year, I had the occasion to learn a lot about this old culture, and I had access to historical reconstitutions and the latest archeological findings.
In rome total war, the gauls were basically depicted as a generic barbaric culture, and really had that hollywood barbarian style : hordes of unwashed, primitive savage, barely equiped and living in hovels.
This depiction was reflected in every aspect of their design : from their town (who could'nt even have stone walls) who looked like a bunch of hovels and huts put together and linked with dirt roads, to their unit design, who like I said, were the generic barbarians units.

Now evidence, mostly recent, shows that they were in fact a pretty sophisticated civilization, and had a level of advancement comparable to the romans. Of course, they were indferior in some fields (the most notable one being engineering, the roman being pretty much the best of antiquity in that field), equals on other and even superior in some.

I can list those fields were they equalled and even surpassed the romans :
-philosophy & theology : the druids weren't only religious leaders. In fact, like many civilizations of that time, the priest and scientist class were the same, look at the egyptians, the persians, the mayans... They were great philosophers, even the greeks and the roman praised the deepness of their thoughs
-Litterature : the fact that they didn't write doesn't mean they had not complex litterature. In fact their poems, essays and stories were transmitted orally. Even today most people have heard of the bards, which is a testimony to their prowess in this fields. They capable of Literary techniques that would have put sometimes some of todays writer to shame. Their litterature wasn't just instinctive.
-Craftmanship : it's one of those fields were they were often (not always) surpassing the romans. Everything ivolving smithing or building objects (made of woods, or other materials). They were by far the finest metal workers in antiquity, smithing being very complex in nature, this is a testimony of their overall level of advancement. They invented the mailcoat (that revolutionized armament ), the plow (that indisputably revolutionized agriculture) and had left a lot of very fine artworks, most of them having only been recently uncovered. They also invented the barell, one of the most ingenious way to transport liquids and other goods.
-MAthematics : yeah, now i know most people are surprise and often don't believe it when they hear this, because it's really the antithesis of today's cliche image of the gauls. But the druids did travel a lot, goign to place like alexiandria, the capital of sience at the time (great library) to discuss and exchange theory with the others sicientist (greek,romans,egyptians sometimes even indians). What we know for sure is that they had the same knowledge of those people. What we don't know yet is if they discovered theorems themselves. Since they did not leave any written notes, it's hard to tell. So I'm going to assume theey didn't had a big impact on mathematical theories and were just educated, just like the romans : the romans didn't really liked abstract thinking themselves, so both gauls and romans are probably equals in those fields.
- Art : it's difficult tho judge art, and I think you can never say one painting is superior to another. You can't judge creativity But, you can judge the level of complexity, the level technique used, and the overall finesse . In those two, the gauls were equals to the romans.They made extremely fine piece piece of art, mainly using metals and wood, while the romans prefered marble and stone. I've many books with lots of pictures about the art of the two civs, and myself i can tell they they are both equals when it comes to the finesse.
-Chemistry : the druids were famous in the whole Mediterranean for their potions and remedies. They knew how to use each plant and were able of feats that nobody could do. They also used this knowledge when crafting.

In the fields of architecture, the romans surpassed the gauls, like they surpassed everybody anyway.
But that doesn't means the gauls had a primitive architecture. In fact they had a very unique style.
Again contrary to the popular belief, they did build more than just huts and longhouse. Their cities were fully paved, like their roads, their road systhem was one of the most develloped and well kept of those time, with every roads being made of stone or woods. Only the poorer lived in huts, and most of them had big houses, improved from generations to generations, with fine artwork all around the house, low relief, sculptures, and paintings. The cities had big administrative buildings, again with lots of artwork and decorations, large public facilities (even baths, although not as extended as the romans ones), large central places...

If you want to picture one of their largest oppdiums (cities), just imagine any other big cities of that times (carthage, sparta, even rome) just a bit smaller (there was a bigger rural population) and replace the stone and marble by a wood/stone combo and metal working : you have your gaul oppidium, the same grandeur, the same imposing feeling (or almost, let's not exagerate :P). But DEFINITEVELY NOT a small town with dirt roads, simple house with little to no art or style. So they should NOT be portrayed like they were in rome total war 1.
Bibactre, one of the biggest gallic oppidium, had over 150 000 inhabitants. Which is still kind of big for that time.
I could go on and one, about how the gauls also invented soap (they weren't the only ones, germans, phoenicians, syrians... did), were master Dyers (they had very colorfull cloth and gave a lot of importance to their clothing, more than the romans did) (which also means most of them (at least more than 50%) did not went naked or bare torsed in battle, but actually put some nice cloth)...

So it was a pretty long demonstration, you can check every point in various sources, I even encourage you to do so, not just wikipedia (even if wikipedia pretty much approves what I said, it's just incomplete on some part), but also the works of some historians and some pictures of the gauls art. I also recommend you ''l'univer des formes'' it's a famous french collection on civilizations, and it was translated in english (i think, but anyway it's mostly pictures of artworks no need translations for that :) ).

I wanted to break most of the préjudice and the comon lie that sticks to the gauls image, even today.
So the point was to provide a more accurate overview of this people and get rid of this stereotypical view.

Now how it should reflect in-game compared to the previous rome total war :

-Units shouldn't be generic and shouldn't be the same as the germans. They should look well equiped (at least for the medium and high tier), and well clothed (for most of them, yet some should be naked or half naked, since SOME gauls did fight that way) and should have that gaulish look.

-Big cities should look neater and more refined : stone roads, imposing facilities, stone walls, fine architecture, presence of pieces of art, scultpures low relief, big temples.... Basically it should have that ''grandeur'' that the other civs cities are going to have. And and also, it shouldn't be the same cities as the germans : they were both different civilization and should not be put in the same basket.
In the end, in the game, if one look at a gauls cities, he ewon't say : ''Meh, this city looks pale in comparaison to the carthaginian/egyptian/greek... ones'', it should look as develloped and as fine as those cities. It should have this ''magnificient'' look the other will have, or at least at a comparable level, in the same scale.

So yeah, that's about it. My hopes is that a CA employee will see this and that it will help, along with many other things (i'm not pretentious :P), make him consider some more options for the design of the gauls. And anyway, I'm also curious to hear your people think about all this, what's your opinion on how CA should stick to historical accuracy and some design ideas you can come up to. I'm also eager to see the debate that will come out of this thread.

Thanks :), certainly have fun debating :)

PS : I can't edit anything (don't have permission yet), so if there are grammatical errors I won't be able to correct them. Thanks for your comprehension :)

It was a big thread, and there was already a big reactions on the forum from the members, most of them approving what I wrote, and defending the gauls against the ''uncultured'' fanboys that bashed on the Gauls.

I think this could be a thread in itself on those forums, since it could also help improve Europa Barbarorum II, even if I don't think you guys really need this since you already have a huge knowledge on the matter.
Yet I never saw anything on the cities in your forums, so I think it could be of some help.

wangchang

07-06-2012, 23:18

I also hope you guys will go see the thread here : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=548834

I also look up to you guys to participate and keep the thread alive. If this thread becomes big, CA might get aware of the matter. It's the best way to inform them if they aren't already.

So don't hesitate to go in this thread : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=548834 and to participate in the debate, add more informations, and defend this cause.

Thanks :), I really hope this thread get the attention it deserve.

Chirurgeon

07-07-2012, 09:34

The steam workshop has been an amazing and virtually seamless way to add mods to Skyrim. I have over 50 mods installed and rarely ever have problems. Without the modding community Skyrim vanilla would have faded away. If done properly modding can add so much creativity to a game. All the developers have to do is provide a stable platform from which modders can jump off of. Just my two cents.

Hernan Cortles

07-07-2012, 16:24

wangchang

07-07-2012, 17:24

uh yeah, but I think the best way to put pressure on CA is to go and keep this thread alive : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=548834
It's the place where there is the most people around, and it's were CA employees come often.
If the thread becomes big (lots of views and comments) CA will probably pay attention .

Blxz

07-07-2012, 18:53

wangchang

07-07-2012, 20:31

Wangchang, that big post that you copied and pasted was filled with spelling errors. I'm not a major grammar nazi but if you are trying to make a point, especially one that is quite important to you as this seems to be, then I can only suggest that you do your best to get it all spellchecked before posting. Blatant errors, especially multiple ones in the same sentence really decrease the effectiveness of your argument.

Also, can I suggest avoiding the huge, bolded text if at all possible. If you really like it then use it as a paragraph heading. Infrequently as well.

Finally, try to keep walls of text to a minimum. Be as concise and direct as you can. If you waffle on or talk about many points in a post they all lose effectiveness.
Good luck with your crusade. =)

Yeah sorry about the spelling, problem is that because of the size of the thread and the fact that i'm not a native english speaker, I didn't had the time to correct anything. The problem is that I can't edit the spelling in the TWcenter since I was banned. But I can edit them here, so I will see what I can do :)

Thanks for the advises :)

Blxz

07-08-2012, 06:12

. The problem is that I can't edit the spelling in the TWcenter since I was banned.

Haha, what did you do? Didn't you just recently join?

Jormungand

07-08-2012, 07:44

Haha, what did you do? Didn't you just recently join?

I think he made two accounts, from what I could see at the "Rome 2 Total War and EB" thread at TWCenter.

wangchang, why did you though?

wangchang

07-08-2012, 19:02

I think he made two accounts, from what I could see at the "Rome 2 Total War and EB" thread at TWCenter.

wangchang, why did you though?

Nah the truth is that I made a first account : they banned me without warning. The reason was that while I as away, my brother entered my room and decided to write stupid stuff (like spamming). Before I could explain this to the moderators, I was banned. So I decided to create another account, which they banned because it was an alt, then another one, which they banned again then another one...
They never realized that there was an obvious incoherence between the spamming incident and my overall participation. I mean, considering the thread I wrote, it's obvious that i'm not a spammer, and that someone else took my account to write stupid stuff.

Nut they don't even want to hear this, i've sent them countless mail, they don't even reply to them.

They even banned my ip.

I was really mad at them.
The only way I could reach them, was if someone was kind enough to create an account and explain them the matter in detail.

Well, at least there are two other forums (this one, and forums.totalwar.com) so i don't feel completely rejected. :)

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

07-08-2012, 22:16

They still frown on swearing though, even here. We would appreciate it if you refrained (and edited your post).

Moros

07-09-2012, 00:18

What PVC said, but also please refrain from TWC bashing. It may all be a misunderstanding and it might not be easy to explain it over there considering you are banned, but misunderstandings happen occasionally. It is however no reason to start bash their moderators, who only want to help their community.

~:)

wangchang

07-09-2012, 01:34

Yeah sorry, I went too far again :( .

I agree that I shouldn't bash on them , but it has almost driven to the point of craziness at some point, because they went as far as to ban my ip from their forums. The problem was that my ip was my university's ip, and they sent a complaint to the ISP (my university). So I almost got trouble with the administration.

But yeah, I will edit the swearing. My bad.

Moros

07-09-2012, 02:00

No problem. ~:)

wangchang

07-09-2012, 04:04

Yep I edited.

Back on topic : are you guys going to remind CA to come and check your mod to get inspiration (especially on the celt /german)? I know they know your mod, but a little remainder wouldn't hurt :).

PS : Do you guys know some administrators on the TWcenter forums? Maybe you could try to explain my situation to them? I already tried to contact them but they ignored all my mails :(
Thanks. :)

Blxz

07-09-2012, 08:17

Why do you keep saying the same stuff in post after post? Various people from the team have replied with their answers; they have been negative about contacting CA each time.
As for getting your IP banned, you shouldn't have been using it from your university. On top of that you were in the wrong for making new accounts each time and getting successively banned. You should have got the point after the first 2 bans. Blaming it on your brother doesn't excuse anything.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

07-09-2012, 15:00

Yep I edited.

Back on topic : are you guys going to remind CA to come and check your mod to get inspiration (especially on the celt /german)? I know they know your mod, but a little remainder wouldn't hurt :).

Short answer - No.

Slightly longer answer - we think our work stands on its own and we know CA are aware of it, and its purpose.

moonburn

07-09-2012, 18:46

maybe rometotalwar2 will have 3 game modes one where you are the general (like in a 3d gta kind of world ) we can always call it lifeaction report one where there is vanilla and the regular vanilla game and one called eb historical accuracy (where all the people can nitpick about a unit using straw hats instead of a phrygian cap )

SoFarSoGood

07-16-2012, 22:20

I shall await EB 2 far more happily than Rome 2. Sorry but the amount the historical detail needed to do EB 1(.2) was NEVER going to be a 'commercial hit' as it were. For sure it's a better game by miles and historically alot closer to realism but by going into such detail (which is fine for wierdos like me) you alienate the mass market. Perhaps CD Project Red who did an excellent job with Witcher 2 and the EB team could get together and give us a complete game as it should be of the rise of Rome and Diadochi wars. I know... dream on I suppose but I do have shares in CD Project Red (I am half Polish).

Rome 2 will be another update of Rome 1 with added bits of naval battles taken from Empire and Nappy etc, on a larger map and with a few new add-ons they've been working on for whatever they chose next. It will be another mass market aimed game with options to play on those awful 'gaming machines'. Any serious gamer KNOWS you need a pc specifically designed for games to beat the system, particularly in a long strategy game. It is not a 'sitting on the sofa' affair and absorbs your every particle of grey matter if you want to crash them out. This, I hope, is what we get from EB 2 and not the mass market dross for those with little understanding of history or reality which is where Rome 2 will aim.

Moros

07-16-2012, 22:38

Sorry but the amount the historical detail needed to do EB 1(.2) was NEVER going to be a 'commercial hit' as it were. For sure it's a better game by miles and historically alot closer to realism but by going into such detail (which is fine for wierdos like me) you alienate the mass market

Don't apologize, I think most if not all EB members agree with this. :yes:

aristotlol

07-16-2012, 23:12

I hope the EB2 team realizes the potential boon to the initial player base of their mod an imminent R2TW release could have. Get workin' for that Q1 2013 release, boys!

As for moddability, I believe it was stated by someone of some consequence that they were really hoping to get some moddability into this one... or something to that effect...

Moros

07-16-2012, 23:42

wangchang

07-22-2012, 01:05

By the way, any plans for the generic settlements in europa barbarorum 2? If you have some, I hope the gallic ones won't look like a pathetic bunch of dirt houses put together behind a dirty wall.
So any plans? Will you make their cities as epic as the other civs?

Tellos Athenaios

07-23-2012, 14:29

Long term we'd like to do full blown custom settlements but it is low priority work so probably not for the first release or so.

Ironduke

07-31-2012, 23:07

I don’t think we’ll see a game which is beyond the pale of acceptable historical inaccuracy. We all have to accept inaccuracy to a certain degree, flaming swine aside. Someone in this thread claimed STW 2 was accurate enough, and in turn, was hopeful RTW2 would deliver similar results. The most strident historian-gamers were not satisfied with the units in STW2. But I agree that STW 2 was accurate enough. It wasn’t so benighted of historical reference that it felt like a fantasy game. The ninja units on the field felt like a terrible idea to me, so I never made them. However, it’s not as bad as flaming pigs or head hurlers, and people can MOD them out of the game entirely without impacting anything.

At any rate, modelers can revamp anything they feel is unacceptable. What distinguished EB from other modification was the scripting. And this time around, we are promised more experience outside the battlefield. Keeping Generals alive means something in RTw2. So I have high hopes for this game.

I'm less worried about flaming swine and much more concerned with alliance, trade, economic regional hegemony/co-prosperity. I realize this game is called total war, but there is something to be said about balancing an economy and in turn raising an army to expand it. I would like to see more thought given to these aspects of the game.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

02-06-2013, 22:48

Just thought I'd mention here how the work here on EB2 is under no threat from RTW 2. All seemed to be going well until the fourth faction was revealed....The Iceni. Not only, as made clear in the EB2 Pritannoi preview, is it unknown whether such a tribe existed during the third century BC but also that the talk is of them possibly uniting the Britons and, perhaps even the Iberian and Gaulish Celts.....

It mentions them being in conflict with their 'neighbours' the Atrebates...... All because of Boudicca, no doubt, but what power did the Iceni really have. As one of the earliest Roman allies one might suggest that it was their powerlessness that identifies them at the time of the first Roman incursions into the British Isles. So, uniting the Britons, let alone the Gauls and Iberians, seems a little.... far fetched?

As far as historical authenticity goes EB2 has it hands down. I'm optimistic, from what I've read, that the diplomatic/political situation will also be much better represented by EB2.

In short, I wouldn't care if EB2 came after RTW 2 (of course, I hope it doesn't ) it would be the game of choice for me. The previews alone have been works of art.

Ptolemaios

02-07-2013, 09:30

I don´t think there is much known about them before Ceasar came to Britain. Even the coins which were found are dated around 10 BC. But I´m no expert by any means. I agree with you, it all seems to be Boudicca centered, unfortunatly. I´m anticipating EB2 much more than Rome2, and I think I´m not allone with this. Pretty Graphics are fine, but EB has a lot more to offer than that.

Cybvep

02-07-2013, 10:33

Given the size of the map, there will simply be too few factions in RTW2 to represent the period semi-accurately. I guess that more factions will be added in the expansions and/or DLCs. After all, people love new factions, so why not make them pay more for them? ;)

Ailfertes

02-07-2013, 11:14

IMHO, the perfect timing for the EB team would be to release EB 2 before or shortly after CA releases the mod tools for R2TW, which they already stated they would not do at the release of the game. Which means there is still at least one year. I hope and believe this can be done now, since the team seems to have had a boost from the recent addition of some talented scripters. This is not because I anticipate R2TW more than EB 2, I will probably play EB 2 more, but because I hope the EB team will be able to profit from an influx of motivated modders at that time.

But I know this is all very premature, since we are all eagerly awaiting EB 2 (which will be awesome), we don't know how moddable R2TW will be, how the game will work, if it will be possible to add more factions in a mod, etc. Just stating that I would love to profit from both improved AI/pretty graphics/new system AND the historicity of EB 2. But as I stated on the R2TW site after they announced the Iceni: we will have to wait for EB 3 to be able to enjoy the game, IF the team ever chooses to pursue this option. Which is of course not to be taken for granted.

athanaric

02-07-2013, 14:02

Just thought I'd mention here how the work here on EB2 is under no threat from RTW 2. All seemed to be going well until the fourth faction was revealed....The Iceni. Not only, as made clear in the EB2 Pritannoi preview, is it unknown whether such a tribe existed during the third century BC but also that the talk is of them possibly uniting the Britons and, perhaps even the Iberian and Gaulish Celts.....

It mentions them being in conflict with their 'neighbours' the Atrebates...... All because of Boudicca, no doubt, but what power did the Iceni really have. As one of the earliest Roman allies one might suggest that it was their powerlessness that identifies them at the time of the first Roman incursions into the British Isles. So, uniting the Britons, let alone the Gauls and Iberians, seems a little.... far fetched?Also, like I said elsewhere, if the Iceni, why not the Jews? Or some other random tribe that staged an anti-Roman rebellion once (at least we know where the Jews were in 270 BC). I see the point of adding a British faction with chariots and because of the position on the map, but there would have been better choices, given the time frame.

Ptolemaios

02-20-2013, 11:51

I just saw that there will only be 8 factions for the first release of RTW2 (not includig the differentt families/factions for Rome and Carthage). I guess there will be some DLC factions later on, but I don´t think it will be more than the 20 or so factions of RTW1, which is kind of disappointing. Yet another reason to prefer EBII.

Ibrahim

02-21-2013, 02:05

Ptolemaios

02-21-2013, 10:00

Well, yes.. I figure paying once won´t be enough...:whip:

kambiz

02-21-2013, 11:48

Is there any chance for EBII to be finished before ROMEII???

Vilkku92

02-21-2013, 15:24

Is there any chance for EBII to be finished before ROMEII???

That depends. How many DLC's are they planning for Rome 2?

Ibrahim

02-22-2013, 01:36

Well, yes.. I figure paying once won´t be enough...:whip:

that's not my problem--as dumb as it can get at times, and as overpriced they (and often, the games) are*. The problem is what it says about the game, about the developers--not all of them, but certainly some of the more famous examples. Bear in mind, my experience with DLC's comes from ME2 and ME3, as well as ETW and NTW: those were the only ones I've regularly downloaded DLC's (though I have for about two dozen games now, usually on behalf of my brother, but I digress).

But from what I've seen, half the time DLC's are there to fix or cover up the blatant sloppiness of the developers--be it the whole staff, or just one section of it (notably the story writers for the ME 2 and ME 3 games). If these DLC's are there to essentially complete the story, or flesh out the world in question, or yet add to a unit roster of a faction (or attempt to "fix" it), then maybe they shouldn't have rushed the development, and instead, you know, just finish the game properly, with that stuff already in there? so what if it's late and perhaps costs a little more? as long as it's not like Duke Nukem forever and takes....forever, we can wait a few extra months for a video game. As it is, the DLC's in some cases further detract from the experience: take the ones that attempted to fix ME3's ending for example, or to provide ME2 with an actual plot. in ETW and NTW's cases, it simply gave us largely redundant units--at least IMO, and have the added problem that they limit or make difficult the modding of the non-hardcoded parts.

bear in mind, patches I have no problem with, as their purpose is not quite the same as those of many DLC's. patches tend to deal with hard-coded issues typically, which are oft unavoidable. they also tend to be free, so if it makes things worse, at least it didn't also burn a hole in your pocket in the process.

Cybvep

02-23-2013, 10:11

IMO DLCs should be mini-expansions with exciting new stuff and not things which should have been included in the original game or some useless, overpriced gimmicks. I won't even mention Day 1 DLCs (*cough* Prothean DLC *cough*), which are obvious disasters.

It looks like RTW2 will have way too few factions on the release day, which is rather disappointing and means that we will most likely get several faction DLCs...

the tokai

02-23-2013, 13:31

To be fair, if you count the three Roman families as one faction (which you should), I believe the original RTW only had nine playable factions (only one more than we think Rome 2 will have). And it's still entirely possible that we will be able to unlock the other factions through editing a text file.

ziegenpeter

04-30-2013, 09:58

Don't apologize, I think most if not all EB members agree with this. :yes:

I dont get why you keep telling this to yourselves. Its almost like you want to preemtively explain why your game wont "hit the masses", and thus hindering it of doing so. I dont think that a higher level of historical accuracy keeps people away from playing a game! It might be that if you spend a lot of your resources (time) on accuracy, you end up with a game that is less convincing in other areas (graphics, gameplay etc) but IMO this doesnt apply to EB.
So stop clinging to your undergroung/no mainstream status like a bunch of hipster musicians and be proud and loud about your product (yeah, I said "product")
:2thumbsup:

To be fair, if you count the three Roman families as one faction (which you should), I believe the original RTW only had nine playable factions (only one more than we think Rome 2 will have). And it's still entirely possible that we will be able to unlock the other factions through editing a text file.
Well for now its looks like you have a decent amount of starting factions: http://www.totalwar-rome-2.de/fraktion/
and pontos being a day1 FREE dlc has afaik to with some programming/realease logistics issues. I'm ok with that, as long there wont be a million 10$dlcs and most faction will be unlockable.
But I think I'll wait anyways until the game isnt full price anymore, that way you can get all the dlc in soem kind of "Gold edition"

Moros

04-30-2013, 12:54

that's not my problem--as dumb as it can get at times, and as overpriced they (and often, the games) are*. The problem is what it says about the game, about the developers--not all of them, but certainly some of the more famous examples. Bear in mind, my experience with DLC's comes from ME2 and ME3, as well as ETW and NTW: those were the only ones I've regularly downloaded DLC's (though I have for about two dozen games now, usually on behalf of my brother, but I digress).

But from what I've seen, half the time DLC's are there to fix or cover up the blatant sloppiness of the developers--be it the whole staff, or just one section of it (notably the story writers for the ME 2 and ME 3 games)..
I enjoyed taking down the shadow broker. ~:(

I dont get why you keep telling this to yourselves. Its almost like you want to preemtively explain why your game wont "hit the masses", and thus hindering it of doing so. I dont think that a higher level of historical accuracy keeps people away from playing a game! It might be that if you spend a lot of your resources (time) on accuracy, you end up with a game that is less convincing in other areas (graphics, gameplay etc) but IMO this doesnt apply to EB.
So stop clinging to your undergroung/no mainstream status like a bunch of hipster musicians and be proud and loud about your product (yeah, I said "product")

I didn't at first, but after so many years it gets the better of you. Sadly thanks to very enlightened forum posts.

Rovert

05-03-2013, 14:48

With RTW2 you will get what you did with RTW1 , new battles , half ass campaign that will be easy playable for fans of games similar to Civilization or what have you. But they also have to appeal to fans of mods because I haven't bought a TW game since MTW2.

Trax

05-03-2013, 15:29

The only reason I bought RTW was to play EB.
The only reason I bought MTW2 was to play EBII one day.

Unless there's going to be EBIII requiring RTW2 there is no chance that I'll buy RTW2

King Philip II

05-03-2013, 18:11

I'm curious about R2TW and excited about EBII

moonburn

05-03-2013, 18:33

i will wait a while until i buy rtw2 first i wanna see how people react to them every game i´ve bought due to the hype of the moment over it have always disapointed me (except for rtw but even that one i waited 1 year beteween the release date and the actual buying of it )

Ludens

05-03-2013, 19:56

The only reason I bought MTW2 was to play EBII one day.

Same here.

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

05-03-2013, 23:34

The only reason I bought RTW was to play EB.
The only reason I bought MTW2 was to play EBII one day.

Unless there's going to be EBIII requiring RTW2 there is no chance that I'll buy RTW2

That pretty much sums it up for me..

DaciaJC

05-04-2013, 14:22

The only reason I bought MTW2 was to play EBII one day.

Yup. Not to say Medieval II is a bad game, but if it wasn't for the prospect of EBII, I probably wouldn't have bothered buying it.

Trax

05-04-2013, 16:13

Yup. Not to say Medieval II is a bad game, but if it wasn't for the prospect of EBII, I probably wouldn't have bothered buying it.

No it's not a bad game and I'm going to play some mods while waiting for EB.

As a matter of fact it's probably a better game than RTW because the AI isn't completely braindead.

Ibrahim

05-05-2013, 05:49

I enjoyed taking down the shadow broker. ~:(

well, that's actually part of the problem:

see, the shadow broker DLC, just makes the rest of the game look even more like a disaster, because of just how well executed the plot is for that one section (which yes, does have a plot), unlike the rest of the game, which has none.

so why not just make the shadow broker takeout the main game instead?

ziegenpeter

05-05-2013, 09:38

No it's not a bad game and I'm going to play some mods while waiting for EB.

Hey! Which mods, if I am alloud to ask? I havent found any that were at least a little bit accurate. DotS is still in the making...

cahtush

05-05-2013, 10:05

Hey! Which mods, if I am alloud to ask? I havent found any that were at least a little bit accurate. DotS is still in the making...

Stainless steel and Broken crescent improves on it, but it's nowhere near EB's levels.

There's Third Age too, if you're interested in LotR.

Trax

05-05-2013, 12:54

Hey! Which mods, if I am alloud to ask? I havent found any that were at least a little bit accurate. DotS is still in the making...

I bought it last year but installed it only few weeks ago. I've been playing Broken Crescent.
Probably the least frustrating Total War experience I've ever had. Diplomacy really seems to work.

Cybvep

06-13-2013, 12:03

I've just finished watching the E3 demo. What can I say? It looks like an arcade game. I probably won't even get it before the first major realism mods come out and I certainly don't plan to buy a new computer just for RTW2. If it turns out that the game isn't very moddable, then I probably won't buy it at all.

Ailfertes

06-13-2013, 12:20

Seconded. It looks far too fast, silly, and based on gimmicks.

Cybvep

06-13-2013, 16:00

What I cannot understand is why the CA keeps using the same old, stupid, unrealistic and ridiculous "synchronised flying soldiers" effect during charges. Come on, it doesn't even look cool. In LOTR, the overpowered Rohan charge doesn't send orcs flying, the projectiles fired from trebuchets just smash the enemies etc. What is the appeal of this effect, then? Wouldn't even a casual gamer want to see something more brutal and less silly?

Blxz

06-15-2013, 07:58

The price alone is bad enough to turn me off. US$80 is a little high for me to stomach, especially with the aussie dollar losing ground to the US dollar now. CA has, for me, been in a steady quality decline since rome1 and medieval 2; each subsequent game has been worse than the last. I still fail to understand why so many people liked Shogun 2.

Southern Hunter

06-16-2013, 15:03

The E3 demo was a massive disappointment. They DO have historians. They must ignore them for commercial reasons. They genuinely think (perhaps correctly) that these gimmicks will sell games, rather than any attempt at realism. It is sad.

Everything depends on how moddable it is. I didn't buy S2, and I constantly hope they will take the combat model forward, but it seems they have spent all their time on firey balls of hay and exploding trebuchet bullets.

Cybvep

06-16-2013, 16:47

It's a pity that the CA doesn't have any real competition and all TW clones are so bad. Even most of the whiners on the TWC will buy the game in the end, heh. I think that the CA believes that their games will have good sales as long as the graphics is good and they may be right.

Celareon

06-18-2013, 07:07

I'm sure Rome 2 will sell just fine, its graphics are top notch and its arcade gameplay is sure to appeal to a wide enough demographic that everyone from die-hards like ourselves to 10 y/o Johnny are going to be lining up.

With that said, with the previews coming out of CA, it's become clear that historical realism or accuracy is, as always, taking a backseat. or really is being held hostage locked in the trunk. With CA's policy of making their games less modable with each iteration, their interest to me is slowly waning.

I have been playing TW since the days of shogun 1 and I can say very truthfully that EB2 will blow Rome 2 out of the f'ing water, in any measurable respect aside from perhaps graphics. EB is one of the finest mods made for any game anywhere and I'm certain EB2 will be as well, I've been looking forward to EB2 since the release of EB1,

Rome 2 wil be a ship in the night.

JMRC

06-18-2013, 23:14

I thank everyone who believes in EB2 and will be waiting for our work to come out. It has been a long and hard road, but with nearly 200 units fully finished and work in the settlements in motion, I feel we're almost there.

However, I must ask everyone to not bash on CA in our forum. As a multi-generational team we have always been respectful of their work and efforts to provide entertaining TW experiences.

I sincerely hope and fervently wish that RTW2 be a stunning success, and due to that, CA may come forward with a proper tool that allows us to build the next generation of the EB mod, just as this one is taking its final shape. Perhaps I'm shocking the guys back on the team by saying this while we're still struggling in EB2, but the Christmas present that I want from CA is a proper tool to mod RTW2. But don't get any ideas: we're not planning any engine switch. :)

Cybvep

06-18-2013, 23:52

Well, ATM high moddability is at the top of my wishlist for RTW2. Even if Vanilla is arcade, the modders will be able to overhaul the game if it's very moddable. It would greatly increase the game's longevity, too.

Almost 200 units? Nice. Maybe there is a chance for the first release before Christmas after all ;).

Ibrahim

06-19-2013, 00:15

moonburn

06-19-2013, 19:16

I sincerely hope and fervently wish that RTW2 be a stunning success, and due to that, CA may come forward with a proper tool that allows us to build the next generation of the EB mod, just as this one is taking its final shape. Perhaps I'm shocking the guys back on the team by saying this while we're still struggling in EB2, but the Christmas present that I want from CA is a proper tool to mod RTW2. But don't get any ideas: we're not planning any engine switch. :) you better not i don´t feel like buying a new tw game atm :X

you should run for office that is a very politically correct thing to say

and i do agree with the efforts that ca as put into their games and allowed us to evolve both on pleasure and in knowledge but i feel like most people that ever since ca and sega teamed up the games have went jap/korean hardcore with lots of lights explosions click buttons as fast as possible and don´t stop to think and plan ahead

i like a proper chess game as most people who are in this forum but ca and sega have been disapointing us ever since the last rome total war and therefore and altough i understand your need to keep this forum unbiased and friendly towards the owners of the franchise the truth is that they are money blind and not caring about our needs anymore as someone stated if they had more proper competition i believe they would be trying harder (but like most greedy companies they´ll only understand when it´s almost too late because thats the truth of what really happens when passion disapears and cold hard numbers take over)

JMRC

06-20-2013, 23:05

you should run for office that is a very politically correct thing to say
Not at all. I really mean it.

Lusitani

06-23-2013, 13:12

Hello all,

Did you guys manage to see this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPQCn7beqew

cahtush

06-23-2013, 16:19

The link is broken.

cahtush

06-23-2013, 16:23

Seems like you forgot an ":".

And now on to your question:

Atleast I did.
It seems like the map will be full of nothing but cities late game (did he really say 3-4 times the size?).

And while some depth seems to be lacking, atleast in that build, it looks really nice so far.

Rifal

07-03-2013, 15:57

it looks really nice so far.
But that is all it will do. No soul, no Passion, no Depht, no Buy

Exanimus

08-12-2013, 05:14

Gaius Sempronius Gracchus

08-12-2013, 09:15

This is the third time I've reviewed this entire thread-line, and I've composed my thoughts and wanted to share my thoughts on RTW2, as I am a die-hard fan of realism and authenticity.

1) The latest videos do have that feel of Rome: Total War for me, and while they do have 'general's abilities' I don't find that so abhorrent; in the end it is a game, and we still have the rally call in EB, don't we?

2) I've scoured the net for intense articles of Q&A about the game, many questions which seem as if they could have been plucked out of these forums. From what I have read, rest assured the team is very intent on making an EXCELLENT game. They not only have used metrics based on users' choices but also listened to people's questions and optimized the gameplay to retain depth and vim while reducing needless micromanagement (I was in EB Today and I realized I hadn't removed any of the conquered factions' government buildings... it was quite tedious and took me a good half hour of wasted time. I am happy to think that this won't be the case in RTW2.)

3) It saddens me to see people bash the game, and attack it for either not being a simulation, being too arcadey, or completing throwing out core features which the original game had. Whether the former or latter or last or combination of the three we won't know until the game comes out. Fortunately, what I have seen is getting progressively more brilliant and appealing, and I hope that we here, with all our reverence for Europa Barbarorum, will come to appreciate the effort of CA if it indeed is as well-crafted as I believe it to be, and at least approach it with an open mind.

I also am still looking forward to EB:2

We can't know for sure what the game will be like until it comes out but....from the previews and from the Q&A the point still stands; in terms of R2:TW and EB2 being in any way similar, there is no comparison. R2:TW is, as you say, a game, and a game devised to appeal to the widest possible audience. That wide audience is not interested, necessarily, in historicity so much as gratifying pre-conceived ideas they have; particularly of Rome and its glory. It appears, also, to veer toward novelty over reality.

The language of the previews still points toward an idea of the 'barbarian' cultures (the name says it all really) being near sub-human savages in need of civilising by the Romans.

There doesn't seem to be a particularly large variation in unit types, and they seem - by and large - rather stereotyped and....flaming pigs are back (along with new hurled boulders and flaming balls). It is, to all intents and purposes, R:TW with flashy graphics and a few new bits (naval warfare, for example).

I don't want to be entirely negative, but even the good things they seem to have put in they have weakened. A clue as to how immersive it is likely to be; the 'character' boosts, which are preset. For example House of Julia will be particularly good at defeating the subhumans...I mean barbarians; why? Well because Caesar defeated the Gauls...over 200 years after the start date. No sense of characters earning particular traits. The whole thing seems arbitrary, and seems often to be based upon events that took place between 200-300 years after the start date (Iceni, Boudicca; Alemanni, Arminius; House of Julia, barbarians).

Simply put; there is no comparison between R2:TW and EB2. There are two very different audiences, and two very different conceptions behind both games. Let's not forget, also, that EB2 is made for free, by individuals working in their own time to bring it to us.

Oh and...how on Earth can they claim that Shogun 2 is the most moddable game of the TW series? What? If R2:TW turns out to be moddable to any reasonable extent then it may become interesting but...in terms of the dynamics of the games there is no comparison between EB2 and R2:TW; they are not for the same audience.

One other thing. From the brief glimpses of the campaign game (I know its only a pre-amble, but..) the battle AI seems just as stupid (perhaps even more so) than in R:TW. What I have seen doesn't convey any sense of a need for tactical nouse on the battlefield. The more I see, the less enamored I become.

Cybvep

08-12-2013, 10:27

Let's be realistic here - the AI will be as crappy as ever. It's never been the focus of the CA. They prioritise the flashy stuff, the AI is of secondary importance. We can expect the AI to get better with patches, though. I will be greatly surprised if the AI is any good in the 1.0 version.

I rarely buy strategy games on their release day nowadays. Wait&see, that's my approach. IMO a SP-focused strategy game without at least a semi-competent AI is a waste of time, at least until the modders make the game more interesting. I'm sick of getting the game only to stop playing the moment I get accustomed to the game mechanics (this is when the game should become the most fun), so I usually play the older games, which are already patched, polished and tried. I will probably wait several months before I touch RTW2.

BroskiDerpman

08-14-2013, 02:58

Rome 2: Total Bargain Price.

That's my opinion on Rome 2. Going to wait... For EB 2 I just play other stuff (Trying out Paradox games, EB1, Chivalry Total War mod, etc) while waiting for it. EB 2 will be well worth my time/effort.

CaptainCrunch

08-17-2013, 00:59

... the Christmas present that I want from CA is a proper tool to mod RTW2. But don't get any ideas: we're not planning any engine switch. :)

:pray:

My expectations of R2TW were pretty much what we've been shown up to now, so I can't say I'm disappointed. Logic and rational demanded that I never imagine even for a moment that it could deliver the experience of EB/EB2. However, I'll be buying it. For the singular reason and hope that one day it will be the basis of EB3. And I don't think I'm alone in this regard.

In my opinion, the capabilities and sheer scale of the R2 engine in the hands of the EB team would result in the Holy Grail of RTS gaming.

BroskiDerpman

08-17-2013, 01:09

:pray:

My expectations of R2TW were pretty much what we've been shown up to now, so I can't say I'm disappointed. Logic and rational demanded that I never imagine even for a moment that it could deliver the experience of EB/EB2. However, I'll be buying it. For the singular reason and hope that one day it will be the basis of EB3. And I don't think I'm alone in this regard.

In my opinion, the capabilities and sheer scale of the R2 engine in the hands of the EB team would result in the Holy Grail of RTS gaming.

This, though the the Warscape engine is quite different and even if there was a EB3 it would take a even longer time to develop.

geala

08-17-2013, 07:20

I finally took some time and watched R2TW game videos by CA a little bit longer, about phalanx, the skirmish battle, sea combat and the Teutoburg trailer. I'm really happy about the graphics and the animations and I'm quite shocked how arcade this game feels. My overall impression: not near to what I expect from ancient combat. Might take a lot of at least what I call "low level modding" to be playable imho. Slow down movement and fighting pace, get rid of laser gun flaming arrows, fiery balls and extremely stupid unit super powers at first. Et cetera. I preordered, so I'm eager to see how it really will play out.

Cybvep

08-17-2013, 13:43

I expected better ramming animations. Something more "gradual". It seems that ships have one "disintegration" animation that fires when the hit is strong enough, no matter where the ship was hit. Before that, you won't even see a dent. At least it doesn't look like it.

It's also funny how everything seems to be too fast in TW Vanilla games. I don't expect battles lasting hours, but part of the fun is watching the units fight and doing some actual tactical manoeuvres. Time compression is always there if one needs it. Unfortunately, it's not possible to slow things down without modding, so yeah, "low level modding" will be a must to make the game playable for me as well.

Ailfertes

08-30-2013, 13:29

I noticed to my dismay that they replaced 'authority' with 'gravitas' - while it should obviously be dignitas (or auctoritas) if they would be somewhat serious. The same with using 'basilica' when denoting an 'aedes'. Sigh. It seems to me you have very little 'gravitas' when overly using the word 'gravitas', but new cool buzzwords can't be helped probably.

Olek

09-01-2013, 15:38

The two main things that have me concerned the most are the extremely fast pace of the battles, I watched a multiplayer match between two of the team, one attacking a town, the other defending and even though one of them made a bad choice in units, the whole affair was over in 5 minutes, the whole thing appeared to be a click fest, units running around everywhere, didn't see a single unit march, no cohesion what so ever.

The other is the interface, it seems to have been dumbed down for a neanderthal to use, the unit cards are disgraceful, a health bar for the unit numbers, huge pylons for banners, huge eyeballs on top of these to tell you that they cannot be seen, when they should not know if they are seen, brown puffs when a unit takes fire.

I just hope they have some options in there to switch some of this crap off, they move some of the unit card symbols like "hidden" to the action screen so you spend more time watching the action, then they go ahead and give all the units buff buttons, dragging you back to the units cards anyway.

They have always made a good base game, but I've always turned to mods, I suppose that's why they call it vanilla, it falls to other people to give it some flavor.

BroskiDerpman

09-01-2013, 19:57

Gameplay wise: EB2

Authenticity wise: EB2

Bang for buck: EB2

Aesthetics: EB2

Hoping people will play EB2 online...

Sabazios

09-02-2013, 10:15

I hope someone will mod walled settlements, for now most settlements wont have walls (including Syracuse and Jeusalem). Until then i wont buy R2TW..

BroskiDerpman

09-02-2013, 20:24

Rome Total Realism team announced their mod for Rome 2 at least people who bought Rome 2 have something to look forward to. :P

geala

09-04-2013, 07:50

I find R2TW ... disappointing. The loss of every possibility to take a look at a realistical depiction of my units (in units cards and unit info cards which show only the ugly pottery-art-like stickman pictures) outside of battles annoys me a lot more than I ever thought. Same for buildings which are now abstract pictogramms. Same for the loss of the family tree. The tech tree is dumped down to boring alternatives. On the campaign map you often have no clue what decisions, f.e. for settlement management, will give you back. That will get better with time I believe. Instead of the 2d art which was part of campaign map gaming in TW titles before S2TW, now you have onyl gimicky 3d features directly on the map as a compensation. You see tiny little buildings, smoke from industries and during sieges little figures staring at each other with mean expression while small super fast shooting catapults (with flaming missiles, of course) around the settlement show you: here is a siege! I'm too oldschool and would prefer the old unit and building depictions in 2d however.

The battles are even more ridiculous than in vanilla S2TW or RTW, fast moving individuals on steroids without cohesion, winning fights with magical powers. Flaming missiles with laser beam power or like tank grenades everywhere. The units look quite good, if you imagine every ancient warrior as an ugly 45 year old with a fat belly and extreme muscles, but the so called "variation" in the units is a special one. You have some different armor and helmets, but by and large the clothes and shoes all look the same and all men in a unit have the same. No barefooted individuals with different tunics in a mob for example. Variation for me is what EB II tries to do within units. When I looked at my Ptolemean Egyptian soldiers and saw all of them without exception in Roman military sandals, my heart sank: deep inside I knew that resistance against a faction with such a mighty shoe industry that already conquered the feet and minds of all men would be pointless in the end. I was so delighted when I discovered that at least some Nubian units went with bare feets. I will rely on them. In earnest, most of the troop types are boring clones of each other. I looked through them during custom battles.

Most of these battles were over in a few minutes because units race over the battlefield (so bad) and rout after relatively few casualties (which is ok) and receive casualties in time spans which can be only measured by apparats working with the speed of light (so bad). I could not see much of the new (?) "human face of war" animations because of the battle pace. I had the feeling that the dying animations known from S2TW are not in the game (or not for all troop types?). Strange.

Sea battles are similar. Fast moving ships with strange physics and flaming artillery. Okay, I only played one battle, so ...

After some time I got the feeling "Why should I play further? What interesting units or buildings or traits or else might appear? Are the future battles worth it with this combat system?" Two hours after start I went to another room of my flat onto my couch and started watching "Big Bang Theory" season 2 for the forth time while eating some marzipan with fruit in chocolade. Much more entertaining. Which is sad for a game on release day, isn't it? I will however give it another try today.

Ailfertes

09-04-2013, 08:13

I'm so glad I didn't buy it. I will wait the long wait for EB2, at least there I'll be able to put some RPG element into it and admire my family tree.

I_damian

09-08-2013, 14:56

I bought it and I regret it like you wouldn't believe. It's so inferior to Europa Barbarorum that I can't even put it into words. I'm going to have to install EB and play it for a few hours as some sort of cleansing ritual.

antisocialmunky

09-08-2013, 22:08

Scutarii

09-10-2013, 18:02

Ugh...

Units are so formless that nothing feels like it has impact. I had the same problem with Medieval 2.

I charge in and the unit spreads out into thin lines and stragglers, then both sides just break down into amorphous blobs. There's no unit cohesion, I usually just give up trying to give orders and mass select all units and just charge them in one blob at each enemy unit in turn. Everything breaks ranks and joins the blob then loses morale and crumble away.

I mean...there's not even enough time in a battle to even both trying to flank the enemy. By the time your cavalry have fought their way through the enemy flanking force the entire centre where your infantry were engaged has become an amorphous scrum and there's not really a flank or rear left to charge anyway...that's assuming that one side hasn't broken completely and the battles over in 3 minutes.

Then there's those bizarre 'control point' thingies. Take the high ground? Are you insane? The control point is right in the middle of the map! Stand there or you will lose!

I dislike the campaign map too. Why can't I have my own garrisons? Why must I have a limit on the number of armies I can field? Why can't I 'march divided, fight concentrated'? Why bother with these family members getting bonuses and attributes and skills and stuff if they just randomly vanish from the game because someone, somewhere poisoned them? I've had at best a general with 3 skills...they then vanish and become a statesman or something and I have no idea where they went, they didn't die I just can't use them anymore. It's like 'See how cool it would be to level this guy up? Hah! Fooled you he's gone and you have no idea why or how to ever stop it happening again!'.

Provinces and Edicts? I like that. Imperium dictating army limits and stuff? No. I hate that, so damned much. Want to be a small, powerful nation? Nope. You HAVE to go on a world conquering blitz if you want to do anything at all. The AI is so braindead that it will let you. The ONLY place on the map where things have gotten a little bit more interesting is playing as Parthia because you end up fighting on 8 fronts at once against about 12 factions simultaneously and even then it boils down to hunting down the enemy stacks and trapping them in cities fighting what amounts to defence in depth strategies.

Cybvep

09-10-2013, 18:04

We can at least have a good laugh. Check this review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_QK-lcW8a8

Have fun :D

fallen851

09-11-2013, 17:01

Ugh...
Then there's those bizarre 'control point' thingies. Take the high ground? Are you insane? The control point is right in the middle of the map! Stand there or you will lose!

This breaks the game for me.

One of the best battles I've ever had, I remember vividly. I had just taken Serdike from the Macedon as the Romans. They besieged the city on their next turn with a smaller army than I had garrisoning it. Seeking to continue my destruction of Macedon I sallied out. The Macedonians force moved itself onto a small hill outside of the city. I figured I'd beat them easily and surrounded the hill and sent up about my half infantry from two directions and my cavalry from a third. This force alone was bigger than their force. After a minute or two my units began to waver, and I sent in more infantry, only to have my entire force break and flee back down the hill. I rallied enough units together, reformed, and tried again. I figured if I position my units more carefully and used my Triari, I defeat them.

I was wrong. I was again repulsed and my men retreated back into the city. Probably the most embarrassing defeat I've suffered, especially since the AI force was so much smaller.

Had there been some stupid capture point in the middle, the battle would have been very easy, and not memorable.

Vilkku92

09-12-2013, 20:17

We can at least have a good laugh. Check this review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_QK-lcW8a8

Have fun :D

Thanks for making my day!

"So god help me, if that's what you're doing I will come over there and I will bitchslap you!"

"The men are WAVEring!"

"We have invested more resources into improving the battlefield AI than I think we have in any Total War games to date..." "JOFF-TCOFF-TCOFFO-TCOFFO-TCOFF!"

That's pure gold mixed with raw meme. Are all of his reviews as good?

On the primary subject, I doubt I'll be playing Rome 2 anytime soon. Not because I believe it sucks so hard physicists will use it to create artificial vacuums (I played vanilla RTW right until I found EB and find Empire funny) but because paying full price for a game I don't know whether or not my laptop is actually capable of running is just too risky investment for nonworking student to make. Maybe sometime in the future I will give it a try, but it just has to wait for now.

No, I didn't hate vanilla (at least with BI)... Why are you staring at me?

BroskiDerpman

09-12-2013, 20:44

Honestly all the balance problems with RIITW are problems with Shogun but more so because of the combat speed. I don't care about RIITW being meh on release, as long as its decently moddable. If they slow down the battles, it should be good.

PS. Naval warfare is crap. Just auto resolve and save yourself the loading time.

Shogun 2 balance was quite good for a vanilla TW game. Combat speed is good for that game as it was balanced for it. I'm interested insome EB online this weekend, are you available ASM? I really want to try out EB online. :2thumbsup:

1v1 is the most convenient for me.

Arkkataka

09-13-2013, 04:58

I've seen a lot of Angry Joe's reviews and I can say that they are consistently great. I actually waited for his review to decide whether or not to buy Rome II, and needless to say I am not going to buy it now.

kdrakak

09-13-2013, 08:42

I tried Rome2 last night (so I haven't seen everything yet). Realism was obviously not a concern during development. However, my PC can play this at extreme graphics quality and I have to say the game is beautiful, if you don't mind going arcade on the best strategy game series ever.... which I do. I can't be sure, but a lot of EB influence is there in unit appearance; thankfully. At any rate, I'll give it a chance. But i don't expect much.

Cybvep

09-13-2013, 10:54

That's pure gold mixed with raw meme. Are all of his reviews as good?
Not all, but some, yeah. In general, I must admit that they are quite good. Personally, I like his reviews of BAD games the most for their entertainment value... and I mean REALLY bad games. Try the Mindjack Angry Review (Worst Game Ever?). You will be rolling on the floor.

BroskiDerpman

09-13-2013, 15:40

One thing that bugs me is that the units move like slugs but the actual melee is fast so you're maneuvering in slow motion but once you commit everything dies.

I don't know chow CA scaled the combat to be like but it's quite strange and easy.

Back to EB then! (There's plenty of other things that I'm annoyed about with Rome 2 but I'm not going to make several large posts which nobody will read.)

Risasi

09-13-2013, 22:58

I'm skipping RSII, at least for a year or so.

And I've tried EBI something like three times over. I always end up back to RS, currently version 2.6...but I've been following EBII for three years now. I'm really excited for it.

[EDIT] Aw heck, I'm gonna reinstall EBI also, if for no other reason than for maybe MP games...

BroskiDerpman

09-14-2013, 14:47

My install went nuts so I got to reinstall EB1 again and hope I install everything in the correct order so I can play online.

Goth47

09-14-2013, 21:02

Glad to see EB still has a good following, and yeah after having tried Rome 2 I must admit I cant wait for EB2 to be released because whatever I want out of a wargame Rome 2 doesn't look like it will be delivering it, the game is too unstable and battles are too arcade like giving you little to no time to implement hammer and anvil tactics( by the time your forces have completed a flanking manoeuvre the general mêlée is already over) that said there are some great features included, Visually it is beautiful and while the lighting and shading is not perfect it is a vast improvement on previous titles, one thing though where have the dust clouds gone? I fought the battle of Raphia in the desert and there wasn't a single puff of dust! I also love the fact you can save a battle replay in campaign mode and when you choose to watch it you can actually refight the battle too, if they sort the bugs and arcade battle speed it will be a classic feature. Rome 2 does not feel immersive and to be honest in its current state it does not play like a Total War game it feels like something different. EB 2 will be the rome 2 we have been waiting for.
Goth

vladik56

09-20-2013, 16:33

rome 2 is joke i played it for a week and got tired of this bullshit ....so few units no variety whatsoever

spanakoryzo

09-22-2013, 20:55

The game is somewhat of a weird hybrid. My girlfriend, who doesn't apreciate Total War games, passed by my P.C. the other day and -in all honesty- asked me which version of Civ 5 I'm playing! That's the first time she's shown interest in any game of the T.W. franchise and she's a Civ fanatic. There's a lot of E.B. in Rome 2 for sure, but there's a HUGE amount of Civ in the mix. New gamers will probably like it, but T.W. veterans will find it hard to take in. The replay value is pretty low too. In all, I'm still waiting for E.B. 2 to do justice to my beloved hellenistic period while dominating the world with Baktria in E.B. 1.2.

GenosseGeneral

09-23-2013, 21:37

Well, I feel like I need some new game these days and I also felt like I could need some new TW. After all, MTW2 is the last game of the series I bought, I decided to give Empire some time to solve its issues and then I discovered EB... and I have been playing it since then (BC to some extent as well).
But Rome II does not seem to be worth paying a full price for. Maybe it's gonna be Civ V or give Europa Universalis a try. After all, it seems like they again fucked up the things i hated most about vanilla TWs: AI and too quick battles.

Edit: And of course I have been following EBII for at least two years. Keep up the good work guys! Can't wait for it! :2thumbsup:

Cybvep

09-24-2013, 10:53

I can certainly recommend PI's games. EUIII/EUIV, CK2, HOI3, Vicky2, DH are very good games for hardcore strategy fans.

helenos aiakides

09-25-2013, 08:34

Yup, paradox interactive games are super fun, super deep and super well supported. Shame that the one in the roman era is terrible though.

ziegenpeter

09-26-2013, 13:10

I can certainly recommend PI's games. EUIII/EUIV, CK2, HOI3, Vicky2, DH are very good games for hardcore strategy fans. But whats really annoying about PIs recent games is their DLC madness. Crusader Kings complete(with all dlcs) costs 80€ and europa universalis 3 (so the OLD one) with all dlc still costs 40€... So yeah I really enjoy their games but I dont like not having all the content available in a game. Unless you strike a good Steam deal or you are willing to pay that much money for good but not very polished games, you're screwed

Cybvep

09-26-2013, 14:21

I think that you can safely ignore sprites etc. They are just eye-candy. Buy the stuff you are interested in.

antisocialmunky

10-02-2013, 04:35

R2TW UI in a nutshell
https://i.imgur.com/wNBFBZm.jpg

You get so many stats and are not sure what any of them really end up doing.

-_-'

Belisarius II

10-05-2013, 19:40

The brokenness of the game mechanics makes me sad. Hopefully, though its a stretch, they will release a very large patch for it, because I won't be buying this game unless they do.

Ibrahim

10-13-2013, 06:32

R2TW UI in a nutshell
https://i.imgur.com/wNBFBZm.jpg

You get so many stats and are not sure what any of them really end up doing.

-_-'

man, that guy must have done something that really pissed off his enemies...

:clown:

cultist

10-25-2013, 09:40

Even if they fix all the bugs and the game runs smooth and all, it feels very dumbed down in comparison to RTW. Either the gamers got stupid in the meantime or they wanted to port to console. And from what i've read on the forums the gamers aren't stupid

antisocialmunky

10-26-2013, 18:41

Its not really dumbed down compared to RTW, it just lacks any sort of Charisma. You don't know who your generals are half the time and the trait system is worse than the original Shogun IE, better if it wasn't even there.

darius_d

11-30-2013, 03:51

Hi all,

IMHO comparing the (unreleased) mod to vanilla game is unfair.

Rome 2 has huge potential, thou still untapped properly. However CA is ironing out bugs and opening it up for modding. That's what really matters.
I myself bought the game very recently so I knew what I am about to get, but absolutely I don't regret it (my first purchase of CA game since M2TW btw). I can bet talented modders will crack this game up to experience beating anything RTW or M2TW modding could offer. Sea battles alone I enjoy out of the box, did not even try any mods.

Considering EB mod, I'd rather you compare game engines. Rome 2 is a winner over M2TW, already, or this moment is very close. Being set in proper era is alone one great advantage, saving HUGE amount of work enforced on EB team by M2TW engine. Not going into details about all those new features we could only dream about in RTW or M2TW. Yeah, I saw Angry Joe's review - fair enough, but patches are still coming and majority of issues were about specific battle bugs - usually relatively easy to fix or overcome.

There should be a kind of open public discussion what is better for the future of EB mod - continued work on M2TW engine (keeping in mind that 1st release will be incomplete on many levels - we'll see how many) - or - porting as much as possible from gathered priceless historical info, all those fantastic textures made already, databes of historical places, voice mod as well as EB team modding talent - and to invest this all in Rome 2.

It is about what is really more worthy further effort. Even EB modders can't make M2TW engine better than it really is. Just finishing EB 2 on M2TW for the sake of finishing unfishined project is no more justified to me.

Perhaps there was already such a discussion, sorry if I start unnecessarily. I gradually lost some interest and stopped lurking here since long time, honestly (though I keep subscribed to EB TT news, admire marvelous work of modders and keep interested to see it released). But all my hopes for the best ancient era enjoyment went rather to future Rome 2 mods.

I think I am not alone believeing that the most logical step is to see EB work ported to Rome 2, as soon as possible.

Ailfertes

11-30-2013, 10:32

I think you are entirely wrong.

First off, the potential of Rome 2 seems to me to be rather limited at the moment. True, they are ironing out bugs in AI behaviour and such in battles, but they are not adding much requested content to the campaign map (family tree, working politics system, ...). Also it remains to be seen how much it can really be modded. They are having a modding summit soon I gathered, so we will have some news on this. But while Rome 1 and Medieval 2 have a lot of features which can be exploited or transformed to support the deep and complex gameplay of EB, Rome 2 seems very 'streamlined'. In other words, much less easy to really transform.
But I do not know these things for a fact, and afaik neither does the EB team. And this is why I disagree with you. At the moment, the team has the choice of working on the mod in Medieval 2 to have a playable game in the near future, expanding on this to once more give people at least 10 years in which they want to explore every corner of the game they have worked on for so long, waiting for other modders or CA to develop tools and guides on how to mod Rome 2; OR they can throw this away to painstakingly trial-and-error their way through the Rome 2 engine and the moddability thereof, depriving the fans but especially themselves from having a successor to their first amazingly wonderful game for at least 5 years (at the very very least). So your argument that a huge amount of work will be saved is false: it would be thrown away.
Also, aside from naval combat there are no working features which would add to the gameplay of EB in Rome 2 in any significant way. The magic powers in battles are silly and would probably be turned off. The politics system doesn't work. The province system is not deep gameplay imho. On the contrary, many features have been cut. Family tree, all cities siegeable, useful and diverse agents, population, individual tax rates, open possibilities for factions, the possibility to strategize with multiple (small) armies if forts for example, ...

Discussion, fine, but I believe most people here will agree with what I have said, especially since the public release is not that far away (I gather beta testers have been contacted...).