View Full Version : The Castration of Boxing
Am I the only one who believes that modern boxing is a disgrace? Seriously, even the greats in modern boxing (like the Pacman, whom I am a great fan of) would be destroyed by skilled boxers from the 1800s in a bare-knuckle fight. It is a style that has developed from unskilled amateurs who are punching with tons of protection that makes things that would work in real life not work and things that would not work in real life work in a boxing match. If you add on to that the BS rules that neuter modern boxing (for Pete's sake, you are not supposed to try to knock out your opponent in amateur boxing, and do not get any points for doing so! WTH! Why even hit the person?
No, I don't agree with everything he says, but I really liked this article. (http://jmanly.ejmas.com/articles/2005/jmanlyart_austen_0605.htm)
should supersede the absurd, more or less vicious, indefinite, swinging, swiping efforts of the average amateur, who flounders about without aim or system... -from the article.
While not perfect this (http://archive.org/details/scienceofselfdef00pric) is real boxing.
Want to make boxing more effective? Here is my plan:
1 Get rid of the gloves. Have boxers fight with cloth and leather wraps. (regular cloth hand wraps on the inside, with a single layer of leather over it)
2 Make style important again. Make boxing an effective art once more. Teach real defense, and effective attacks.
3 Throw out 80% of the rules. Less rules = more effective. Encourage gentlemanly behavior within the sport, and penalize people who deliberately kill or injure other sportsmen, but overall, cut down on the rules.
4 When you do this, boxing will be a lot more dangerous (but that is not a bad thing. If it is not dangerous, then why box at all? Don't forget that it is simply a gentlemanly version of an effective killing and self-defense art), so you will have to be more selective of who is allowed to compete. People will be judged not only on performance and how well they follow the rules, but also gentlemanly behavior in competitions. Most televised fights would be done away with as you would have less people able to make the cut. Professional boxers would be far fewer, but the fights much more worth watching.
Boxing would be respectable again, and effective. Right now a bunch of toothless rednecks and city trash love to sit down and watch their brutal blood and sweat fest, but really know nothing about real fighting (that is why modern boxing appeals to them). New boxing would appeal to people who actually knew something about fighting, and eventually the morons who love modern boxing would catch on and come over.
Even cage fights wouldn't allow that, bare hands ok, much less brutal than something wrapped around your hand
Even cage fights wouldn't allow that, bare hands ok, much less brutal than something wrapped around your hand
Of course not...that is why I am saying we need change. We need to start off with one State to get the laws changed to as to allow it, and then start up schools and small, local competitions.
HoreTore
07-06-2012, 19:28
Boxing is a sport for immature girleboys.
Proper males play football.
Boxing is a sport for immature girleboys.
Proper males play football.
lmao...football...
Honestly, American football has been neutered as well, but that is another discussion. People should just play Rugby instead.
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 19:33
Instead of throwing knives at them, why don't you capture mice and make them work to sate your bloodlust.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1RHzMPps6s
My bloodlust? Perhaps you didn't notice, but one of my biggest beefs with modern boxing was that it is a blood sport where extreme aggression and a complete disregard for your opponent's safety is not only allowed but expected.
HoreTore
07-06-2012, 19:38
lmao...football...
Honestly, American football has been neutered as well, but that is another discussion. People should just play Rugby instead.
Yes, of course HandEgg is for girlieboys too.
I said real men play football. Not handegg.
Yes, of course HandEgg is for girlieboys too.
I said real men play football. Not handegg.
Soccer, I believe you mean. ~;) Soccer is for girly Eurowieners my friend. No really contact, great for upper body, but ignores the lower body. A good sport works both the upper and lower body (like baseball, which is the king of all sports), and it helps make it more hardcore if there is some real contact...like in hockey.
My bloodlust? Perhaps you didn't notice, but one of my biggest beefs with modern boxing was that it is a blood sport where extreme aggression and a complete disregard for your opponent's safety is not only allowed but expected.
Skipped a week
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 19:43
My bloodlust? Perhaps you didn't notice, but one of my biggest beefs with modern boxing was that it is a blood sport where extreme aggression and a complete disregard for your opponent's safety is not only allowed but expected.
Fair enough then, the best way to combat that does seem to be taking away the safety equipment and dumping most of the rules. Oh yes, and penalizing for deliberately killing someone, that's worth at least a two point deduction.
Skipped a week
huh?
Fair enough then, the best way to combat that does seem to be taking away the safety equipment and dumping most of the rules. Oh yes, and penalizing for deliberately killing someone, that's worth at least a two point deduction.
The biggest danger is attitude. What makes a sport a blood sport or not is more attitude than equipment. I know guys who practice without armour with sharpened swords, and just are careful with each other. They have never got anything more than minor wounds. While I would never do that, I think it is a good example of attitude is the biggest factor of safety.
Taking away the 'safety equipment' makes boxing boxing again. How safe the sport is is determined by how well the refs and judges do their jobs. You cannot neuter an art, and have it remain an art. It just doesn't work! They did the same darned thing with TKD! Of course there are risks, and people will know them. You will only have people joining who are willing to take those risks, and for the most part, they will be far more skilled fighters for it.
Funny that in the UFC, they use tiny 4oz gloves and no helmets and yet you don't have people dying all the time. Also, you don't seem to be complaining about the lack of safety equipment there. I don't like the UFC because it does not encourage people to fight with the right attitude; it is that, and not the safety equipment that worries me.
Boxing could easily be done the way I have suggested with little or no more deaths or injuries than in modern boxing, and the sport would greatly improve for it. You do realize that for the longest time people did prize fights without all the ridiculous safety equipment, don't you?
Do you also realize that my bros and I box and sparr bare knuckle and with nothng but shorts and a mouth piece all the time, and none of us have ever been seriously injured as a result. We are far better able to defend (and take hits when we need to), and have a much better idea of how to survive a real fight because of it.
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 19:59
Well, there seems little point in discussing anything with the self appointed 'arbiter of sport'. Perhaps I'll come back to this thread when you find 'opinion' and 'fact' in the dictionary, and work out the difference.
Well, there seems little point in discussing anything with the self appointed 'arbiter of sport'. Perhaps I'll come back to this thread when you find 'opinion' and 'fact' in the dictionary, and work out the difference.
Since when did I say my opinion was fact? I said that I believe it is attitude, not safety equipment that contribute the most to safety. I'm sorry if I disagreed with you johnny, but that is my opinion, and I gave examples to back it up. I did not see anything to support your claim that removing the safety gear would make it more dangerous.
EDIT: Do you realize how arrogant you sound when you say that disagreeing with your opinion is arrogant? Just some food for thought...
HoreTore
07-06-2012, 20:17
Soccer, I believe you mean. ~;) Soccer is for girly Eurowieners my friend. No really contact, great for upper body, but ignores the lower body. A good sport works both the upper and lower body (like baseball, which is the king of all sports), and it helps make it more hardcore if there is some real contact...like in hockey.
Still walking in the shadow...
Believe in the Messi(as)!
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 20:19
Since when did I say my opinion was fact? I said that I believe it is attitude, not safety equipment that contribute the most to safety. I'm sorry if I disagreed with you johnny, but that is my opinion, and I gave examples to back it up. I did not see anything to support your claim that removing the safety gear would make it more dangerous.
:shrug:
Seriously, even the greats in modern boxing (like the Pacman, whom I am a great fan of) would be destroyed by skilled boxers from the 1800s in a bare-knuckle fight
It is a style that has developed from unskilled amateurs
punching with tons of protection that makes things that would work in real life not work and things that would not work in real life work in a boxing match.
If you add on to that the BS rules that neuter modern boxin
Less rules = more effective
When you do this, boxing will be a lot more dangerous
(but that is not a bad thing. If it is not dangerous, then why box at all?
you would have less people able to make the cut
the fights much more worth watching
Boxing would be respectable again, and effective
Right now a bunch of toothless rednecks and city trash love to sit down and watch their brutal blood and sweat fest
but really know nothing about real fighting (that is why modern boxing appeals to them)
New boxing would appeal to people who actually knew something about fighting, and eventually the morons who love modern boxing would catch on and come over.
Anyway, for boxing to be taken seriously again, there is more work to be done outside the ring than in, in my view. The politics between fighters, promoters and the different associations, the standard of judging (it's absolutely farcical that it is just accepted now that if you want to beat a home champion in certain places, Germany for example, you have to knock him out) etc have turned the sport into a circus.
:shrug:
Yes, you quoted me stating my opinion (which of course I believe is fact (otherwise it would not be my opinion)), but what does that prove? Am I arrogant to have a different opinion than you johnny?
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 20:27
Yes, you quoted me stating my opinion (which of course I believe is fact (otherwise it would not be my opinion)), but what does that prove? Am I arrogant to have a different opinion than you johnny?
:laugh4:
I refer you back to this.
Perhaps I'll come back to this thread when you find 'opinion' and 'fact' in the dictionary, and work out the difference.
:laugh4:
I refer you back to this.
An opinion is something you believe to be true (ei, you believe to be a fact), though you accept the possibility that it may not be. (that is a paraphrase from several definitions I just found) I believe what I said is a fact, but I know that that is just my opinion and that I may be wrong. Never in my post did I say that God came down and told me or that I could prove what I believe to be 100% true. You just don't like someone disagreeing with you.
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 20:47
Actually, I think a number of your points have merit, had you presented them as opinions there might have been the possibility of a coherent discussion. As it is, I can't really see your overall point. One minute you say that you don't like the extreme aggression and disregard for opponents safety, then complain about amateur boxers not trying to knock each other out, which is inherently disregarding your opponents safety.
You claim to give examples for your opinions, but I don't see any. As for my boxing background, I was an amateur boxer and fought in the Irish championships as a teenager. I gave up boxing after sparring with a clubmate without safety equipment, and knocking him out, leading to a blood clot in his brain. Luckily he was all right, but I hope you can forgive my reaction to your ideas, seeing as I have a lot of experience in the subject. I don't know if you have spent a week as a teenager thinking you killed a friend, but it certainly strengthens your convictions.
Actually, I think a number of your points have merit, had you presented them as opinions there might have been the possibility of a coherent discussion. As it is, I can't really see your overall point. One minute you say that you don't like the extreme aggression and disregard for opponents safety, then complain about amateur boxers not trying to knock each other out, which is inherently disregarding your opponents safety.
You claim to give examples for your opinions, but I don't see any. As for my boxing background, I was an amateur boxer and fought in the Irish championships as a teenager. I gave up boxing after sparring with a clubmate without safety equipment, and knocking him out, leading to a blood clot in his brain. Luckily he was all right, but I hope you can forgive my reaction to your ideas, seeing as I have a lot of experience in the subject. I don't know if you have spent a week as a teenager thinking you killed a friend, but it certainly strengthens your convictions.
I get that John, and my brother almost died from an injury to the head (and still has problems speaking) that a sparring partner in TKD gave him even when he was wearing all his safety gear. In TKD hits to the head are supposed to be light, and my bro was training him and encouraging him to get hits in to build his confidence, and therefore was not protecting his head. It was not safety gear that caused or stopped the injury, but attitude. I have seen lots of people with full safety gear get injured because the person they were sparring had a bad attitude. I have seen very few people get injured sparring (even without safety gear) when they had a good attitude. That is what I am basing my assertion that attitude is by far the most important part of safety on.
Yes, hitting the head and trying to knock your opponent out can cause injury, but it is accepted risk in the sport. I'd think you have a much better chance of permanent injury taking a 15 minute barrage of gloved, full power hits to the head than a single, bare-knuckle strike that knocks you out.
You should want to knock someone out (which yes, is causing short term damage, with a risk of possible long-term damage), but you should not want to kill them. I can sparr an opponent, intending to knock him out, without wanting to seriously hurt them. Modern boxers just don't give a crap, and they are taught to want to cause as much damage as possible.
Boxers used to try for that knock-out, but would forfeit the match if the judges deemed they deliberately used more force than necessary to simply knock someone out.
It is my argument that you can both make boxing more realistic and useful AND safer by removing much of the gear and rules, but leaving more up to judgment and encouraging (and requiring) more sporting behavior.
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 21:08
You haven't really given any real reason for taking away the safety gear, going by what you have posted, safety gear and a better attitude would be best.
You haven't really given any real reason for taking away the safety gear, going by what you have posted, safety gear and a better attitude would be best.
My reason is that it makes the 'sport' an art. It greatly increases the chance of the sport preparing you for real combat. It becomes a real athletic event AND martial art, instead of a game completely removed from reality. (not actually completely of course, as boxing still can be used to defend yourself...even if not half as well as it used to)
When you take away the gloves, helmet, and most of the rules, it becomes an entirely different thing. Modern boxers would not stand a chance using their modern style. It would then teach real fighting, and could be taught as really good self-defense in addition to being taught as a sport. I don't know about you, but I love martial arts, and my main goal is to make them as perfect as possible. I don't want to be doing something that is just barely good. Boxers should love boxing, and should want it to be the best it can be; the most perfect art.
Take away the BS, and it would require a lot more skill, and the size of your muscles would become secondary to that skill.
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 21:35
You could argue that taking away the BS lessens the skill required as one lucky punch is more likely to knock someone out, and I don't see that as emphasising skill. I also fail to see how taking away the safety gear lessens the impact of strength. I agree that talking away the equipment, rules etc would lead to more excitement, more drama, and more knockouts, I don't see that it would make boxing more skillful, or pure.
Personally I think professional boxing is dying a slow death as a major sport, more due to public apathy at a sport riddled with the corruption and mismanagement I touched on earlier than the actual in ring spectacle. The future will probably lie more in small regional organisations, and there is a good chance something close to your vision will become a reality in a number of them.
You could argue that taking away the BS lessens the skill required as one lucky punch is more likely to knock someone out, and I don't see that as emphasising skill. I also fail to see how taking away the safety gear lessens the impact of strength. I agree that talking away the equipment, rules etc would lead to more excitement, more drama, and more knockouts, I don't see that it would make boxing more skillful, or pure.
Personally I think professional boxing is dying a slow death as a major sport, more due to public apathy at a sport riddled with the corruption and mismanagement I touched on earlier than the actual in ring spectacle. The future will probably lie more in small regional organisations, and there is a good chance something close to your vision will become a reality in a number of them.
It increases the skill needed because it makes it all about human interaction and your fighting relationship with your opponent, rather than just you and how you can train to punch hard and toughen yourself. It is now a game between two people, where the stakes are high. Rather than being able to be careless and just charge in there and take a bunch of hits, but hit harder yourself (which is what happens in a lot of ameteur fights), you need to be able to avoid being hit, as just one punch to the face is likely to take you out. It emphasizes defensive skill, footwork, feinting, predicting your opponents movements, counter-striking, etc, and a lot less beat them till their eyes pop out.
Fights are actually a lot less exciting to watch with no gloves. Very few punches are thrown, and when they start flying, the fight is over almost instantly. Fighting with gloves on makes fights a lot more enjoyable, because there is lots of back-and-forth trading of blows, and fights last much longer.
When someone knows that the first punch that lands on their chin could take them out, they will be a lot more protective, and learn to master those split seconds of making contact, which really decide most fights. (ones between skilled fighters that end decisively...not stupid, drunk brawlers)
You should try going down to 4 oz gloves and see how much harder boxing is, and how much more skill is required. Then try it bare-knuckled if you got someone willing to take the risk, and you will see that it takes a whole different skill set.
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 21:59
I disagree that it's more skill, it's a different mentality. It's more about the risks, knowing one mistake and it's game over, the stronger will wins more often than the stronger boxer without the equipment.
I disagree that it's more skill, it's a different mentality. It's more about the risks, knowing one mistake and it's game over, the stronger will wins more often than the stronger boxer without the equipment.
One of my favorite sayings (and I forget who said it) is "Whoever wants to taste his enemy's blood the most will live."
That really is the truth most times in a real fight. Having a fighting will is the most important thing for a fighter. Technical skill is the second most important. I believe that gloveless boxing would improve both.
I see we can a fundamental disagreement that it would improve skill, and I think that may get down to our definitions of skill, but I'll agree to disagree on that for now. My opinion is based on the fact that I trained for sport for years, and then my first time of training without gloves and gear, I got my butt whooped. I did though, develop the skill do very well in that setting, and IMHO, that takes more skill.
Anyway though, I think you would agree that it really would better prepare people for real fights. Even my arch-enemies, the Gracies agree on the primacy of street training over sports training (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e864iZ4sB8Q).
I believe that boxing in a pure form is an incredibly effective martial art that could compete with any other in a life-and-death situation. I don't think that modern boxing is though, and that is shame.
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 22:17
I think we probably are just differing on semantics. To me, skill is all about physical ability, reflexes, footwork all that stuff. I consider mental toughness and willpower something completely different, though no less important.
I think we probably are just differing on semantics. To me, skill is all about physical ability, reflexes, footwork all that stuff. I consider mental toughness and willpower something completely different, though no less important.
I agree with you that mental toughness and willpower are not part of 'technical skill'. However I judge 'skill' in a fighting art by how effectively it keeps you alive and takes the other guy down...not just how good you are at your style. Meaning if you are really skilled at a style that is all about crumpling up on the floor when attacked so that your attacker takes pity on you, I would say that you are not as skilled a fighter or martial artist as someone who is skilled at an art that teaches you to effectively neutralize an opponent using strikes to vital areas.
Those I would deem a boxer who is proficient at 1800s boxing to be more skilled than one proficient in modern boxing, because his style demands more and better reflexes, and because he is better suited to survive a real fight.
Major Robert Dump
07-06-2012, 22:27
Um, while the sport itself has become silly
To say that modern boxers would "stand a chance" is a little harsh. I would bet that against about 95% of the population they would whip that a$$, to include many martial artists. Much of it depends on how the fight starts and who gets the first punch.
I also do not understand your fascination with preparing people for "real combat." I mean, I understand why you want to be prepared, and why many people would want to be prepared, but I don't understand why you think a professional boxer would need to be prepared, if he cared if he was prepared, or why you care if he or anyone else is prepared. This whole Entertainment must Mimic Life mentality defeats the purpose of entertainment, and thats what most pro sports are these days. They are athletes with no other functional use.
I suggest you move to a pacific island and start your very own bloodsport deathmatch business. I will be in Guam, so I can help you
Um, while the sport itself has become silly
To say that modern boxers would "stand a chance" is a little harsh. I would bet that against about 95% of the population they would whip that a$$, to include many martial artists. Much of it depends on how the fight starts and who gets the first punch.
I also do not understand your fascination with preparing people for "real combat." I mean, I understand why you want to be prepared, and why many people would want to be prepared, but I don't understand why you think a professional boxer would need to be prepared, if he cared if he was prepared, or why you care if he or anyone else is prepared. This whole Entertainment must Mimic Life mentality defeats the purpose of entertainment, and thats what most pro sports are these days. They are athletes with no other functional use.
I suggest you move to a pacific island and start your very own bloodsport deathmatch business. I will be in Guam, so I can help you
I said wouldn't stand a chance against an 1800's professional boxer, not a random modern bozo.
Fighting is at the heart of fighting arts. I do not see how people can seperate them and take them seriously. The only way it has worked is by fooling people into thinking it still is fighting at its heart. They lie to people and make them think they are seeing something real.
Major Robert Dump
07-06-2012, 23:37
I didnt catch the 1800s part, I thought u just meant vs any bozo on the street. I still remember what that poor dudes face looked like when Tyson punched him outside the night club. Blocking a punch from someone like Klitchko means I would just KO myself with my own forearms as they were smashed into my face.
Well, thats just what it has degraded to. Baseball, basketball, all the other balls, they serve no purpose other than to entertain i a very narrow manner. Of course many pro ball players are great athletes in terms of muscle and cardio and paychecks, but their sport has no functional use outside of the sport. Fighting sports have become much of the same thing.
They have castrated UFC, too, for what its worth. It was very new, very pure fighting at first. Then came the rules. Then came the regulations. Then came the sponsors who wanted certain caveats. Thats just how it goes in the USA and many other countries.
Fighting sports have become much of the same thing.
They have castrated UFC, too, for what its worth. It was very new, very pure fighting at first. Then came the rules. Then came the regulations. Then came the sponsors who wanted certain caveats. Thats just how it goes in the USA and many other countries.
I know, and I would love to see the UFC become something real. Of course they won't do that, because when you had less rules, like in early Pride, guys like Sakuraba Kazushi embarrased the heck out of the Gracies. If they were to take away the rules, GJJ would get its arse kicked, and people would see it for what it was. They suprised everyone at first, but now that people are used to it, they can easily learn how to defeat it with their own styles, and it would become just another martial art, out there with all the others (one of the less effectives ones at that), instead of people thinking it is the most lethal fighting art in the world.
Without the rules, a lot of TMA would start kicking butt, and people would see all the lies about GJJ for what they are. The Gracies and their cronies would lose a lot of money.
I think it is more realistic to change boxing, even with all of its corruption. (though a change in either sport is unlikely)
johnhughthom
07-06-2012, 23:53
UFC still throws up the odd classic, Henderson vs Shogun last year was fb.
Underground MMA is where its at these days. UFC is good, but there's so much money in it that you just know eventually it'll go the way boxing has gone. I get my kicks from local organizations.
lol, a few years ago I participated in a few not-quite sanctioned MMA fights, but decided it was not worth the risk eventually. :P (and the guy who runs it is a d$#&) (made some not-that-bad money doing it though)
Honestly though, if what I saw is anything to go off of, they are not that much better than the UFC. They are just packed with crazies, but there is not much skill.
Strike For The South
07-07-2012, 01:47
A modern boxer would kill an 1800s style bare knuckle fighter. Literally kill him.
Your ignorance is showing again.
Boxing would be respectable again, and effective. Right now a bunch of toothless rednecks and city trash love to sit down and watch their brutal blood and sweat fest, but really know nothing about real fighting (that is why modern boxing appeals to them).
Simply becuase you do not see the beauty does not mean it is absent. Besides boxing is most popular with latin immigrants not rednecks. Rednecks are all about the MMA
A modern boxer would kill an 1800s style bare knuckle fighter. Literally kill him.
Your ignorance is showing again.
lmao...dude! You really have no idea! This coming from the guy who bragged that he knew nothing about fighting because he thought it was useless. Sorry chump, but steroids don't make you an expert fighter.
Strike For The South
07-07-2012, 01:54
lmao...dude! You really have no idea! This coming from the guy who bragged that he knew nothing about fighting because he thought it was useless. Sorry chump, but steroids don't make you an expert fighter.
I never said it was useless, go back to the thread and read what I wrote. I also have never claimed to be an expert fighter. I do know that throwing a balled, bare knuckle fist at a mans face is a good way to break everybone in your hand.
I never said it was useless, go back to the thread and read what I wrote. I also have never claimed to be an expert fighter. I do know that throwing a balled, bare knuckle fist at a mans face is a good way to break everybone in your hand.
Really, then why throughout history have people done it succesfully? It is called conditioning, genius. You need to condition your fists to be able to take heavy impacts on hard objects. There are many sophisticated ways of doing this, but I used to just practice on a concrete wall. Start out slow and light, and build up.
I've punch people in the face, and not broke my hand, and I've been punched in the face by someone who did not break their hand. You will only break your hand if you are an untrained idiot or have exceptionally bad luck. Also, you are not supposed to target the hardest areas of people's skulls!
Simply becuase you do not see the beauty does not mean it is absent. Besides boxing is most popular with latin immigrants not rednecks. Rednecks are all about the MMA
Who said that latin immigrants cannot be rednecks too?
I thought the gloves actually made the sport far more dangerous because if any of those boxers actually punched without the gloves, they would smash the bone in their hands, so as such, the gloves allow them to punch far harder which leads to greater head injury.
edit: Strike beat me to it.
Strike For The South
07-07-2012, 03:58
Really, then why throughout history have people done it succesfully? It is called conditioning, genius. You need to condition your fists to be able to take heavy impacts on hard objects. There are many sophisticated ways of doing this, but I used to just practice on a concrete wall. Start out slow and light, and build up.
Bull. People throughout history have not fought in "boxing" style. The skull is unforgiving and will shatter your bare hand. Matches lasted that long because boxers kept their distance and threw safer punches.
I've punch people in the face, and not broke my hand, and I've been punched in the face by someone who did not break their hand. You will only break your hand if you are an untrained idiot or have exceptionally bad luck. Also, you are not supposed to target the hardest areas of people's skulls!
You are not a trained boxer. I'm willing to wager you're not a trained fighter at all.
Strike For The South
07-07-2012, 04:07
As has been pointed out, gloves made the sport much more dangerous.
spankythehippo
07-07-2012, 04:15
You want danger? Try competitive Russian Roulette.
In fact, that would be the only sport I'd watch.
Centurion1
07-07-2012, 04:59
You know who is a trained boxer?
Moi.
I boxed (don't anymore it doesn't interest me as much) since I was 11 years old. Even won a young golden gloves competition. So let me drop some knowledge kiddies.
Boxing is a sport. It is not a war, a gladiatorial combat, or anything of the sort. It is an old, well established sport. The objective is not to actively injure your opponent or draw blood. It is to win. Injury and blood are a side effect of pursuing victory. Mr. Vuk you do not know anything about boxing it appears so please realize that the mountain of knowledge you believe you are standing on is in reality more like an ocean trench. Let me begin,
1. Boxing is a dying sport. Sports die, new amusements strike the peoples fancy this is the nature of the world. I don't really care
2. Boxing is a corrupt sport filled with disgusting cheating and rampant ethical issues.
3. Boxing has always been this way.
4. Boxing will always be this way.
5. Your suggestions are imbecilic which we will cover in part 2
Part 2 Aka your severe lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology and the technical details of boxing
1. Bare knuckle boxing was made illegal because people get far too hurt. you idiot.
2. You likely think boxing is cool because you have never been in a fight with a real boxer or anyone with boxing ability
3. Manny Pacquiao or Floyd Mayweather weigh about 60 pounds less than me and probably 200 pounds less than you. They would literally beat the crap out of us.
4. To say a modern boxer would lose to your bare knuckle boxer of the 1880's is patently false and such an absurd claim I dont even want to address it. He would get his butt kicked in under 1 minute by any professional 21st century boxer. Muhhamad Ali would get his butt kicked too in his prime. If you havent noticed, in every single sport since the dawn of history athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, faster, taller, and more skilled. I, merely your average joe, am in better shape, stronger and faster than most boxers of the 1880's. (I would be destroyed but I am better physical specimen is my point).
5. your lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology is chilling. Boxers wear gloves to protect their hands not their opponents faces. A boxing glove spreads the force over a larger surface area and causes more damage, as it also creates a stronger and harder surface to interact with the victims tissue than you hand. Boxing gloves are HEAVY. It is a struggle to even hold them up for a few minutes unless your very strong. They are meant to protect your hands because you dolt you will break your hands punching bone with bare knuckles. I have very small hands which makes it easier for me to punch people as the force becomes concentrated than an individual with larger paws. However, even I know that my hands will break if i start boxing. Even with gloves I have broken my left hand and snapped about 6 fingers. My hands are so ******* up when I went to get my fingerprints for my security clearance the guy doing it asked what was wrong with my fingers. Have you ever seen the hand or bones of an individual from the era of boxing where no gloves were worn? They dont even look human.
In summation. You sir insult me. I didnt even want to post in this thread.
I'm just ignoring your lack of knowledge regarding style in boxing, the necessity of rules, and a belief that boxing does not present effective guards and combinations. I am also going to ignore you inability to grasp the difference between a sport and a self defense method.
what is this thread i dont even
You know who is a trained boxer?
Moi.
I boxed (don't anymore it doesn't interest me as much) since I was 11 years old. Even won a young golden gloves competition. So let me drop some knowledge kiddies.
Congratulations Muhammed. Out of curiosity, have you ever been in a real fight?
Part 2 Aka your severe lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology and the technical details of boxing
1. Bare knuckle boxing was made illegal because people get far too hurt. you idiot.
Because far too many people hurt their knuckles? I assume that is what you must mean because of what you say bellow.
2. You likely think boxing is cool because you have never been in a fight with a real boxer or anyone with boxing ability
Thank you for knowing so much about me.
3. Manny Pacquiao or Floyd Mayweather weigh about 60 pounds less than me and probably 200 pounds less than you. They would literally beat the crap out of us.
Of course they would beat the crap out of me. They are much faster, much stronger, and have much more experience. When did I ever say I could stand up against a professional boxer?
4. To say a modern boxer would lose to your bare knuckle boxer of the 1880's is patently false and such an absurd claim I dont even want to address it. He would get his butt kicked in under 1 minute by any professional 21st century boxer. Muhhamad Ali would get his butt kicked too in his prime. If you havent noticed, in every single sport since the dawn of history athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, faster, taller, and more skilled. I, merely your average joe, am in better shape, stronger and faster than most boxers of the 1880's. (I would be destroyed but I am better physical specimen is my point).
If you believe this, you are a fool. You see what you are basing this on? bigger, stronger, etc. You obviously have not been in many real fights Centurion. I have been in a few, and it often is not the biggest and strongest person who wins. It is the most determined and the most skillful. Speed probably is the next most important determining factor, and then reach. Your ignorance is a result of all your fights being gloved fights. In a gloved fight, you almost always need to be larger and stronger than your opponent. You don't in a bareknuckle match.
5. your lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology is chilling. Boxers wear gloves to protect their hands not their opponents faces. A boxing glove spreads the force over a larger surface area and causes more damage, as it also creates a stronger and harder surface to interact with the victims tissue than you hand. Boxing gloves are HEAVY. It is a struggle to even hold them up for a few minutes unless your very strong. They are meant to protect your hands because you dolt you will break your hands punching bone with bare knuckles. I have very small hands which makes it easier for me to punch people as the force becomes concentrated than an individual with larger paws. However, even I know that my hands will break if i start boxing. Even with gloves I have broken my left hand and snapped about 6 fingers. My hands are so ******* up when I went to get my fingerprints for my security clearance the guy doing it asked what was wrong with my fingers. Have you ever seen the hand or bones of an individual from the era of boxing where no gloves were worn? They dont even look human.
Oh, really? How come I know people who can break solidly supported slabs of contrete with their fist? (I can break those same slabs with an open hand, and trust me, it is not easy) How come I have punched people in the face before and done nothing more than lose a little skin because my punch wasn't as straight as it should have been? Why is it that I can punch a concrete wall quite hard and fast without breaking my hand? It is called conditioning, which people who train to punch without gloves do. Without training your hands to strike hard objects, yes, gloves are necassary, but they can be trained.
In summation. You sir insult me. I didnt even want to post in this thread.
I'm just ignoring your lack of knowledge regarding style in boxing, the necessity of rules, and a belief that boxing does not present effective guards and combinations. I am also going to ignore you inability to grasp the difference between a sport and a self defense method.
A good martial art is both. As far as 'effective guards and combinations', save it. I have heard it before from boxers. I cannot grasp how boxers can put so much faith in their guards, because they really suck (esp in a bareknuckle situation). I had a professor who actually made it to an olympic boxing team. I tried discussing boxing defense with her, and she would not even consider that there could be anything better in the world. Here's the thing though Cent, boxing has a very passive defense (overall). A good martial art has an active defense. You think the boxing guards are good because you have not been taught anything better. Let's leave it at that.
In short, you are like so many other martial artists out there: completely entrenched in the myths and beliefs of your style, unwilling to consider anything else, and completely hostile to those who doubt the merits of said style.
what is this thread i dont even
Kisses baby!
1. Bare knuckle boxing was made illegal because people get far too hurt. you idiot.
Boxers wear gloves to protect their hands not their opponents faces.
Nice.
Major Robert Dump
07-07-2012, 21:49
Theres so much e-peen measuring going on, I am frantically searching for mine because I don't want to get left out, but I cannot find it becoz I just got out of the poolzor.
You know who is a trained boxer?
Moi.
I boxed (don't anymore it doesn't interest me as much) since I was 11 years old. Even won a young golden gloves competition. So let me drop some knowledge kiddies.
Boxing is a sport. It is not a war, a gladiatorial combat, or anything of the sort. It is an old, well established sport. The objective is not to actively injure your opponent or draw blood. It is to win. Injury and blood are a side effect of pursuing victory. Mr. Vuk you do not know anything about boxing it appears so please realize that the mountain of knowledge you believe you are standing on is in reality more like an ocean trench. Let me begin,
1. Boxing is a dying sport. Sports die, new amusements strike the peoples fancy this is the nature of the world. I don't really care
2. Boxing is a corrupt sport filled with disgusting cheating and rampant ethical issues.
3. Boxing has always been this way.
4. Boxing will always be this way.
5. Your suggestions are imbecilic which we will cover in part 2
Part 2 Aka your severe lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology and the technical details of boxing
1. Bare knuckle boxing was made illegal because people get far too hurt. you idiot.
2. You likely think boxing is cool because you have never been in a fight with a real boxer or anyone with boxing ability
3. Manny Pacquiao or Floyd Mayweather weigh about 60 pounds less than me and probably 200 pounds less than you. They would literally beat the crap out of us.
4. To say a modern boxer would lose to your bare knuckle boxer of the 1880's is patently false and such an absurd claim I dont even want to address it. He would get his butt kicked in under 1 minute by any professional 21st century boxer. Muhhamad Ali would get his butt kicked too in his prime. If you havent noticed, in every single sport since the dawn of history athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, faster, taller, and more skilled. I, merely your average joe, am in better shape, stronger and faster than most boxers of the 1880's. (I would be destroyed but I am better physical specimen is my point).
5. your lack of knowledge regaridng human physiology is chilling. Boxers wear gloves to protect their hands not their opponents faces. A boxing glove spreads the force over a larger surface area and causes more damage, as it also creates a stronger and harder surface to interact with the victims tissue than you hand. Boxing gloves are HEAVY. It is a struggle to even hold them up for a few minutes unless your very strong. They are meant to protect your hands because you dolt you will break your hands punching bone with bare knuckles. I have very small hands which makes it easier for me to punch people as the force becomes concentrated than an individual with larger paws. However, even I know that my hands will break if i start boxing. Even with gloves I have broken my left hand and snapped about 6 fingers. My hands are so ******* up when I went to get my fingerprints for my security clearance the guy doing it asked what was wrong with my fingers. Have you ever seen the hand or bones of an individual from the era of boxing where no gloves were worn? They dont even look human.
In summation. You sir insult me. I didnt even want to post in this thread.
I'm just ignoring your lack of knowledge regarding style in boxing, the necessity of rules, and a belief that boxing does not present effective guards and combinations. I am also going to ignore you inability to grasp the difference between a sport and a self defense method.
Thread won. Mods pls lock thx u v much.
The Stranger
07-08-2012, 00:57
it aint a real fight till someone pulls a knife or a gun. and if one of them got armor on its a battle.
Bull. People throughout history have not fought in "boxing" style. The skull is unforgiving and will shatter your bare hand. Matches lasted that long because boxers kept their distance and threw safer punches.
People throughout history have punched each other in the face, and done it for sport. The sport of 'boxing' has evolved over the years, and at one time barely resembled what it has degraded to today.
Shatter your bare hand? Really? Is that why the Romans would use stiff leather thongs to fasten steel or lead plates over their knuckles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caestus)?
I dare say that was a lot less forgiven (esp when thrown to an enemies skull), and still, they did not 'shatter' their hands.
Strike For The South
07-08-2012, 06:07
its grouped with brass knuckles....
People throughout history have punched each other in the face, and done it for sport. The sport of 'boxing' has evolved over the years, and at one time barely resembled what it has degraded to today.
Shatter your bare hand? Really? Is that why the Romans would use stiff leather thongs to fasten steel or lead plates over their knuckles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caestus)?
I dare say that was a lot less forgiven (esp when thrown to an enemies skull), and still, they did not 'shatter' their hands.
Seriously Vuk, come on.
He didn't use the 100% exact correct phrasing, but anyone who knows anything about fighting will know what he's talking about. Punching someone along most of their skull will most likely break bones in your hand, possibly very badly as in compound fractures, hence STFS saying "shatter".
Also, about Cent's point of gloves there to protect the boxer's hands. Was your response sarcasm, because that's how I read it... ? If so, then seriously bro? Ever heard of a boxers fracture? That's just one of the more combat injuries. Why do you think all major contact sport fighters wrap the crap out of their hands and then put on gloves beforehand? It's not just western boxing, look at muay thai, kickboxing, MMA in general, pankration, or any other combat sport. When we put on gloves to fight, it's to protect our own hands, not you or your face.
Seriously Vuk, come on.
He didn't use the 100% exact correct phrasing, but anyone who knows anything about fighting will know what he's talking about. Punching someone along most of their skull will most likely break bones in your hand, possibly very badly as in compound fractures, hence STFS saying "shatter".
Also, about Cent's point of gloves there to protect the boxer's hands. Was your response sarcasm, because that's how I read it... ? If so, then seriously bro? Ever heard of a boxers fracture? That's just one of the more combat injuries. Why do you think all major contact sport fighters wrap the crap out of their hands and then put on gloves beforehand? It's not just western boxing, look at muay thai, kickboxing, MMA in general, pankration, or any other combat sport. When we put on gloves to fight, it's to protect our own hands, not you or your face.
I know that you can break your hand by punching someone's skull, but you are not supposed to be punching crown of the skull. If you condition your hands well, you will have no problem punching someone in the chin or nose hard enough to disorient them and possibly knock them out. Of course you punch differently when you don't wear gloves. You don't punch as hard, but you also don't need to.
Also, yeah, gloves protect your hand, but they also protect your opponent.
I'll tell you what Wacker, you should try something that my bros experimented with. Find a sparring partner, and one of you use 16 oz boxing gloves, and the other use 4 oz. UFC gloves. See who wins, then switch.
Then, one of you use just hand wraps, and the other use 4.oz UFC gloves. See who wins.
When my bros did this, the person with 'less protection' won every time. They didn't need to punch nearly as hard to do as much and more damage, so their punches were quicker and more abbreviated, and still had more of an impact.
I think that if you do that you will come away feeling as I do, that boxing without the 'protection' of gloves is far more effective for you.
Strike For The South
07-08-2012, 15:36
I'll tell you what Wacker, you should try something that my bros experimented with. Find a sparring partner, and one of you use 16 oz boxing gloves, and the other use 4 oz. UFC gloves. See who wins, then switch.
Then, one of you use just hand wraps, and the other use 4.oz UFC gloves. See who wins.
When my bros did this, the person with 'less protection' won every time. They didn't need to punch nearly as hard to do as much and more damage, so their punches were quicker and more abbreviated, and still had more of an impact.
The padding in MMA gloves is mostly positioned by the knuckles to dissipate the majority of the force.
You punch harder with boxing gloves on. You are lying.
The padding in MMA gloves is mostly positioned by the knuckles to dissipate the majority of the force.
You punch harder with boxing gloves on. You are lying.
16 oz. Boxing gloves have a lot more padding on the knuckles and dissipate a lot more of the force than 4 oz. MMA gloves.
Let me explain to you the mechanics behind damaging someone with a punch, as you obviously have no idea.
Depending on where you punch someone, you need different amounts of energy to damage them significantly. You goal is to transfer as much KE as possible into the smallest place possible over the shortest time possible.
The smaller the POC (Point of Contact), the more locational damage you will do. This of course goes both ways, as the smaller a part of your body you hit with, the great a chance you have of damaging it if striking a hard surface.
The overall amount of energy you transfer into your opponent is almost insignificant. What really matters is energy over time. You can do a lot more damage with much less energy transfered over a far shorter time than you can more energy over a longer time.
With bare knuckles and a fast punch, you have a very quick transfer of a lot of energy. With gloves, your POC is a lot larger, allowing you to strike with increased KE at hard targets, but because of the padding, this energy is transfered over a longer period of time (thus lessening its affect on your opponent). Also, a large POC means that you do less locational damage as well as less damage from a fluid shock wave. The more padding, the larger the POC, and the more time it takes to full transfer energy.
You think I am lying? Try it out yourself. Give a friend a pair of each gloves and have him punch you in the gut. Tell me which does more damage. Then have him do it bareknuckle, and tell me which was the worst.
Strike For The South
07-08-2012, 17:06
You seem to be assuming there are no bones in the hand. YOU WILL BREAK YOUR HAND IF YOU TRY TO BOX WITHOUT GLOVES.
You seem to be assuming there are no bones in the hand. YOU WILL BREAK YOUR HAND IF YOU TRY TO BOX WITHOUT GLOVES.
Then I guess I have no bones in my hand strike, because I have punched people when wearing no gloves, and I did not break my hand. I've also been punched in the face by people who didn't break their hands, and I have seen it happen to other people.
A person has a flexible neck, and it absorbs a lot of the force of a punch. Also, when punched in the face, it is a person's natural reaction to follow the punch backward most times.
Strike, not only my own experience and observations, but also history are against you. You are falling into the big lie of modern sports fighting that is meant to cater to the lowest possible denominator. And people currently involved in modern sports fighting believe the lie religiously. They think they are much smarter and physically superior to their predecessors, and that 'modern sports medicine' is the ultimate source of truth. Modern sports fighting is designed to make the most money possible, with the least risk and work possible, while attracting as many people as possible.
UFC fighters often still break their hands, there's been talk about switching to heavier gloves for years. Boxers still break their hands too, although not as often.
Your head is pretty solid, guys. It can take a hit. The gloves are for the hands.
Yeah, it happens, but that is fighting. Shite happens. You can hurt yourself grappling, kicking, kneeing, etc. The chance of you breaking your hand is not very high, but the chance of breaking someone's face is. Of course if modern people conditioned for striking hard surfaces more, it would happen a lot less.
Tell us about that time you outrolled a bjj purple belt
Strike For The South
07-08-2012, 20:01
You're not only a liar, you're also an idiot.
Life must be taxing
lol, whatever you say Strike. I'm glad you two are so much smarter than all those idiots who came millennia before us!
Centurion1
07-08-2012, 21:57
Your a troll and an imbecile vuk. you dont know anything about boxing so stop talking about it. there is a difference between your obese inbred brothers fighting in your backyard and tow boxers going around a ring punching each other repeatedly in the face. not to mention your full of shit becase as i said bare knuckle boxers have deformed hands and even I have fracked up hands with crooked fingers because of boxing.
Also I just cannot believe that there are people on this planet who believe that the athletes of today are not stronger and faster as well as more skilled than those who came a 100 years before. Can we just close this thread because of the rampant and absurd bull vuk is spouting right now.
Your a troll and an imbecile vuk. you dont know anything about boxing so stop talking about it. there is a difference between your obese inbred brothers fighting in your backyard and tow boxers going around a ring punching each other repeatedly in the face. not to mention your full of shit becase as i said bare knuckle boxers have deformed hands and even I have fracked up hands with crooked fingers because of boxing.
Also I just cannot believe that there are people on this planet who believe that the athletes of today are not stronger and faster as well as more skilled than those who came a 100 years before. Can we just close this thread because of the rampant and absurd bull vuk is spouting right now.
No Cent, it is not that I don't know about modern boxing; it is that I don't agree with modern boxing. Yes, of course you are going to get deformed fingers and knuckles if you bunch bare-knuckled a lot...just like you do with gloves, and just like you develop cauliflower ear and other conditions wrestling. That has nothing to do with whether or not it is an effective style.
Also, none of my brothers are fat you moron. I'd tell you that anyone of them could trash you, but that would not be worth my time. My bros grew up working hard their whole lives, and have been in a lot of real fights (real fights...not ameture boxing matches). Anyone of them probably has gained more real world experience in one year of their childhood and young adulthood than you have accumulated in your entire life. If you ever come to WI PM me and I'll give you my address. We'll see you talk shit then.
Also, as a student of history, I cannot believe that people nowadays are even half as good as the ancients (or even just those 100 years ago!). Due to modern bodybuilding techniques they may have larger muscles, but that does not equate to strength, speed, or skill.
Crazed Rabbit
07-08-2012, 23:50
Also, as a student of history, I cannot believe that people nowadays are even half as good as the ancients (or even just those 100 years ago!). Due to modern bodybuilding techniques they may have larger muscles, but that does not equate to strength, speed, or skill.
So you think accumulation of knowledge, vast improvements in nutrition, vast improvements in strength training, and improvements in coaching lead to worse athletes?
:rolleyes:
CR
johnhughthom
07-09-2012, 00:23
Not to mention healthcare.
So you think accumulation of knowledge, vast improvements in nutrition, vast improvements in strength training, and improvements in coaching lead to worse athletes?
:rolleyes:
CR
No, and I also do not think that is really exactly what happened. We gained a lot of new knowledge and a better understanding of something, and lots knowledge and understanding of other things.
When things like H2H combat became much less important with the growing dominance of gunpowder on the battlefield, we lost much of the technique and training technique we had acquired over many hundreds of years.
As far as basic strength and speed goes, I believe living a hard life style full of intense work makes you much more balanced and better suited to deal with an enemy's force and apply your own than modern strength training ever could. Many people a few hundred years ago started the intense hardships since early childhood, and when they trained for fighting, the emphasis was on explosive speed, rather than increased muscle mass.
Modern sports medicine seems obsessed with the idea that a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle. This often is not the case, as strength often times is determined more by how someone uses the muscle than how much of it they have. I have seen very skinny people out muscle very muscular people, so to say that the only way to increase strength (or the most important way) is to increase muscle mass is false. Many people can do a lot more with a lot less.
People now adays look at it in too medical of a way, rather than judging by the results.
Also, because people's abilities on average have declined, due to an easier lifestyle, modern sports medicine has set way underestimated our species in a lot of ways.
It wasn't that long ago that modern sports medicine was saying that time tested push-ups were bad for you. Now they are just beginning to understand what people have known for hundreds of years. (ei, that they work)
So many times modern medicine contradicts traditional wisdom based on medical research, only to find out that they were wrong and there was a reason for traditional wisdom. Modern medicine does not take results into account often times.
CR, a person who spends their time working out in a gym will get a lot more muscular than a kid who grows up doing hard labour, but the kid who grows up doing hard labour will be much stronger and better suited to fighting despite his smaller muscle size.
Don't be so size focused. There is so much more to strength than just the size of a muscle.
Crazed Rabbit
07-09-2012, 01:26
CR, a person who spends their time working out in a gym will get a lot more muscular than a kid who grows up doing hard labour, but the kid who grows up doing hard labour will be much stronger and better suited to fighting despite his smaller muscle size.
Don't be so size focused. There is so much more to strength than just the size of a muscle.
Sometimes I wonder if you read what others write at all;
So you think accumulation of knowledge, vast improvements in nutrition, vast improvements in strength training, and improvements in coaching lead to worse athletes?
Did I say bodybuilding? Did I say muscle size? No, I said strength training. Strength.
Also, fighters don't do farm labor to gain strength. They work out. In gyms. With weights and other things.
Eh, whatever.
CR
Sometimes I wonder if you read what others write at all;
Did I say bodybuilding? Did I say muscle size? No, I said strength training. Strength.
Also, fighters don't do farm labor to gain strength. They work out. In gyms. With weights and other things.
Eh, whatever.
CR
Yes, I read what you wrote CR. My point is that unfortunately, modern athletes believe the best way to gain strength is by adding muscle mass or doing exercises that add muscle mass.
Also, yes, I know fighters don't do farm labor to gain strength. My point was that back when people did a lot more heavy labor from their childhood, they had a better base to build on when they became fighters.
Strike For The South
07-09-2012, 05:21
Yes, I read what you wrote CR. My point is that unfortunately, modern athletes believe the best way to gain strength is by adding muscle mass or doing exercises that add muscle mass.
Also, yes, I know fighters don't do farm labor to gain strength. My point was that back when people did a lot more heavy labor from their childhood, they had a better base to build on when they became fighters.
What do you think labor and farmwork build?
Holy balls
What do you think labor and farmwork build?
Holy balls
Yes, your muscle mass will increase as you get stronger, but strength is a lot more complicated than just that. There are lots of skinny guys out there who can out muscle much bigger guys.
Strike For The South
07-09-2012, 05:34
Yes, your muscle mass will increase as you get stronger, but strength is a lot more complicated than just that. There are lots of skinny guys out there who can out muscle much bigger guys.
what does that even mean
Crazed Rabbit
07-09-2012, 15:08
As far as basic strength and speed goes, I believe living a hard life style full of intense work makes you much more balanced and better suited to deal with an enemy's force and apply your own than modern strength training ever could. Many people a few hundred years ago started the intense hardships since early childhood, and when they trained for fighting, the emphasis was on explosive speed, rather than increased muscle mass.
Kinda skimmed past this the first time, but - how do you know anything about this? Farmers trained for explosive speed? AND WHO SAYS MODERN STRENGTH TRAINING IS ONLY ABOUT INCREASED MUSCLE MASS? Besides you, of course. You're really saying we lost the precious secrets to strength training, and our huge knowledge of the science behind it cannot possibly compete with ye-olde-strengthe techniques from the ferocious farmers/pit fighters of old?
what does that even mean
Farming, apparently, builds special muscles that are way better than the muscles you can get in a gym.
CR
what does that even mean
Speed hits harder. A very strong person hits slower, it's closer to pushing than it is to hitting. Think of it in kinetics, the amount of energy delivered.
Major Robert Dump
07-09-2012, 15:43
Actually, guys, a lot of today's top MMA fighters do circuit training on America's farms, thanks in part to federal corn subsidies. Amongst the MMA circles, it's called "husking."
Centurion1
07-09-2012, 15:48
Speed hits harder. A very strong person hits slower, it's closer to pushing than it is to hitting. Think of it in kinetics, the amount of energy delivered.
After what Vuk said this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Having taken some physics in my lifetime and having an understanding of how a punch hits and feels I question your ability to comment on this.
Look guys I figured it out. Since Vuk worked on farms he is naturally predisposed to be a superior human being than I am. This is why he was allowed to join the military and I cannot seem to pass my medical examination. He is just stronger, faster, and more of a h2h combat expert (which is a skillset that is of paramount importance on the modern battlefield). Basically because he is a superior specimen of man he is, as i stated before, stronger, faster, and an all around better physical athlete than my frail potentially division 1 body could ever hope to be. More so I should be afraid to ever enter the state of Wisconsin because his equally fit by a long lost secret regimen of farming labor brothers would beat my butt because to them I am nothing but a fly on the wall.
I completely concede my point to vuk in regards to boxing. If only I knew that there were secret methods that could make fighters even better. God only knows why the entire boxing world has regressed in training methods when Billy Bob out on the farm in Iowa is by default the greatest athlete in the America's. So of course I also agree with vuks point that we should switch to bareknuckle boxing. Ignore the fact that a boxing glove hits with more force than 4oz mma gloves or bare fists, thats irrelevant. We need to go back to the days of 6-8 hour boxing matches where two men were too scared of breaking their hands all they did was body shots on each other with the occasional straight jab. Also ignore that they usually ended up breaking their hands which is why men like John Sullivan ended up with severe crippling arthritis in his hands and could barely bend his fingers by the time he was in his fifties. But yeah it would be sick if we could start paying for 6 hour matches where the fighters circle each other forever and rupture each others internal organs. Then we would have the pleasure of seeing someone die on the mat from a ruptured spleen. Then we can start dragging farmboys off pops corn farm and setting them to fight each other once all of those weak azz "professional athletes" die off which should be soon since all they ever do is weak modern workouts. Then to fully perfect the art of boxing we will dissolve any sort of semblance of rules in the ring. This will destroy what was once a stinky good for nothing dance of two artists and create a shuffling lumbering brawl with no regard for finesse or technique. Excuse me this would actually develop "proper combos, effective guards and real defense."
At the end of the day guys the reason that Vuk is in command of Seal Team six is because he used to work on a farm. This made him the killing machine we see before us. Hopefully, one day if I ever encounter his farm trained army of supermen I will be able to run away. BUT WAIT!!!! His body is so hardened by the menial labor he takes an absurd joy in he will easily outpace my sub 4.9 40 yard dash speed all while being +300 pounds. Did I mention that farmwork gave Vuk a physique that grants him a waist size of 32 all while being over 300 pounds. I'm going to get a job on a farm right now so I can hopefully get stronger and faster like the 21st centuries Jim Thrope, Vuk.
You buffon.
'After what Vuk said this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Having taken some physics in my lifetime and having an understanding of how a punch hits and feels I question your ability to comment on this. '
When it's so easy? Energy doesn't get lost, with a slow punch most of it goes into moving the mass off the head you are punching, while a speedy punch hits of all the energy that goes into the hit itself.
Kinda skimmed past this the first time, but - how do you know anything about this? Farmers trained for explosive speed? AND WHO SAYS MODERN STRENGTH TRAINING IS ONLY ABOUT INCREASED MUSCLE MASS? Besides you, of course. You're really saying we lost the precious secrets to strength training, and our huge knowledge of the science behind it cannot possibly compete with ye-olde-strengthe techniques from the ferocious farmers/pit fighters of old?
Farming, apparently, builds special muscles that are way better than the muscles you can get in a gym.
CR
I never said that farmers trained for explosive speed. I said that athletes 100+ years ago focused a lot more on explosive strength.
My point is that there is not a perfect correlation between strength and muscle mass. Strength has a lot more to do with knowing how to best use what you have than having massive biceps. My bros and I grew up doing some very hard work, and because of that we have always been able to out muscle people with a lot more muscle mass than us.
Don't tell me that spending 10-14 hours a day for a few weeks a year splitting hardword to burn during the winter with a 12lb maul, starting when you were just a wee child is not going to teach you something about hitting hard and fast. Don't tell me that spending 12+ hours a day digging and hauling rocks for two months to fix a septic tank, get rid of an old leech field, and put in a new one is not going to build better core strength than training 1-2 hours a day at a gym.
Don't tell me that carrying huge field stones around all day is not going to build better full body strength than working for 1-2 hours in the gym.
Muscle gained from hard work keeps going all day, and your body adapts to exhaustion and learns to use its strength very efficiently. So much of fighting is just dealing with an opponents force. Hauling, pushing, pulling, and steadying heavy loads all day (often on very rough footing) is gonna teach you that and teach you excellent ballance.
No, it alone will not make you an excellent fighter, but it is a much better base for a young fighter to have than playing computer games or basketball through their childhood.
My bros and I did work like that since we were tiny children, and we have been able to our wrestle guys much bigger than us, with much more muscle than us, who were trained wrestlers, even though all we knew about wrestling is what we learned from messing around on our spare time.
My point was not about occupation, but about time. People 100+ years ago worked much harder from a young age, and so had a much better base fitness to build on. You look at the young kids today, whether from a nice suburban neighborhood or from the ghetto, and they are pathetic. Most have never done a day's work in their lives.
Speed hits harder. A very strong person hits slower, it's closer to pushing than it is to hitting. Think of it in kinetics, the amount of energy delivered.
Agreed on the first point, but not the second. A very strong person does not necassarily hit slower. They often do because they train by slowly lifting heavy weights, which makes them able to slowly move heavy things, but not move explosively. Hard work and training focused on explosive force build muscle a lot slower, but it is possible for a very strong person to hit just as fast and potentially faster than a small person.
About speed though, I agree. KE = ½ mv².V there is the most important factor. Even small people have plenty enough mass in their bodies to throw behind their punches if they have good technique, and do plenty of damage. What really matters most of all is the speed at which they launch their arm and body forward. Something that a lot of modern amateur boxing morons don't understand. To take splitting wood as an example, I often will choose the lighter maul (say, 12 instead of 14.5lbs, and when I was younger, 8, instead of 12) because I can make it travel faster, and therefore split more effectively than if I had chosen the larger one.
After what Vuk said this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Having taken some physics in my lifetime and having an understanding of how a punch hits and feels I question your ability to comment on this.
Look guys I figured it out. Since Vuk worked on farms he is naturally predisposed to be a superior human being than I am. This is why he was allowed to join the military and I cannot seem to pass my medical examination. He is just stronger, faster, and more of a h2h combat expert (which is a skillset that is of paramount importance on the modern battlefield). Basically because he is a superior specimen of man he is, as i stated before, stronger, faster, and an all around better physical athlete than my frail potentially division 1 body could ever hope to be. More so I should be afraid to ever enter the state of Wisconsin because his equally fit by a long lost secret regimen of farming labor brothers would beat my butt because to them I am nothing but a fly on the wall.
I completely concede my point to vuk in regards to boxing. If only I knew that there were secret methods that could make fighters even better. God only knows why the entire boxing world has regressed in training methods when Billy Bob out on the farm in Iowa is by default the greatest athlete in the America's. So of course I also agree with vuks point that we should switch to bareknuckle boxing. Ignore the fact that a boxing glove hits with more force than 4oz mma gloves or bare fists, thats irrelevant. We need to go back to the days of 6-8 hour boxing matches where two men were too scared of breaking their hands all they did was body shots on each other with the occasional straight jab. Also ignore that they usually ended up breaking their hands which is why men like John Sullivan ended up with severe crippling arthritis in his hands and could barely bend his fingers by the time he was in his fifties. But yeah it would be sick if we could start paying for 6 hour matches where the fighters circle each other forever and rupture each others internal organs. Then we would have the pleasure of seeing someone die on the mat from a ruptured spleen. Then we can start dragging farmboys off pops corn farm and setting them to fight each other once all of those weak azz "professional athletes" die off which should be soon since all they ever do is weak modern workouts. Then to fully perfect the art of boxing we will dissolve any sort of semblance of rules in the ring. This will destroy what was once a stinky good for nothing dance of two artists and create a shuffling lumbering brawl with no regard for finesse or technique. Excuse me this would actually develop "proper combos, effective guards and real defense."
At the end of the day guys the reason that Vuk is in command of Seal Team six is because he used to work on a farm. This made him the killing machine we see before us. Hopefully, one day if I ever encounter his farm trained army of supermen I will be able to run away. BUT WAIT!!!! His body is so hardened by the menial labor he takes an absurd joy in he will easily outpace my sub 4.9 40 yard dash speed all while being +300 pounds. Did I mention that farmwork gave Vuk a physique that grants him a waist size of 32 all while being over 300 pounds. I'm going to get a job on a farm right now so I can hopefully get stronger and faster like the 21st centuries Jim Thrope, Vuk.
You buffon.
I'll take your petty insults seriously Cent when you become team leader Seal Team six or any of the other absurd accomplishments you mentioned.
And for your information dollophead, when I first tried to join the military, I was not fat at all. I was rejected because of a genetic condition that was completely beyond my control. That has nothing to do with fitness or training.
I know though, you were an amateur boxer, so that makes you an expert. You were one of thousands of flabby idiots with no form and no skill who exhausted themselves by the second round throwing ineffective punches at each other for the sake of further degrading the sport of boxing and giving themselves hardons. Sorry for doubting you Mr. Pacquiao.
And to repeat myself (since you obviously did not read my post), I was not arguing that farmers are better fighters than professional athletes. I said that 100+ years ago when people did a lot of hard work since they were young (farm work being just one example of that), they had a lot better base to then go on and be athletes, then kids who grow up in the ghetto hanging out on the side of the street, or who sit in their 300k+ house playing Playstation as kids.
Peasant Phill
07-09-2012, 20:12
I can't resist:
You're right Vuk, everything was better in the past. people in the past were better at things than people now who have more time and better support to train for something specific.
Major Robert Dump
07-10-2012, 04:35
We should have an org reunion, but instead of drinking and meeting one another, we can have Kumate. I can host, but in the interest of preventing cheating, I insist that all fighters fight naked
Ironside
07-10-2012, 07:30
Don't tell me that spending 10-14 hours a day for a few weeks a year splitting hardword to burn during the winter with a 12lb maul, starting when you were just a wee child is not going to teach you something about hitting hard and fast. Don't tell me that spending 12+ hours a day digging and hauling rocks for two months to fix a septic tank, get rid of an old leech field, and put in a new one is not going to build better core strength than training 1-2 hours a day at a gym.
Don't tell me that carrying huge field stones around all day is not going to build better full body strength than working for 1-2 hours in the gym.
You are of course correct. it will in particular be giving a lot more stamina, something very important in boxing and not something you pick up by strength training in a gym.
And since we all know that all the training boxers do is 1-2 hour strength training in gyms, we see the result in that they barely last one round.
That professional boxers would spend most of thier days training everything needed for boxing is a proposterous idea.
I think Capitalism ruined it, they're simply making a lot more money now. Switch to Communism and you can have the government return the sport to a true art form.
This is because socialist/communist governments subsidize the true arts while capitalist inverstors only care about making money. Gloves make more money because the girls can watch it, too. Or in other words, the market obviously demanded that boxers wear gloves, if you have a problem with that, you've obviously got a problem with market economics.
Also never forget to consider the monetary aspect!
Centurion1
07-12-2012, 05:12
I'll take your petty insults seriously Cent when you become team leader Seal Team six or any of the other absurd accomplishments you mentioned.
And for your information dollophead, when I first tried to join the military, I was not fat at all. I was rejected because of a genetic condition that was completely beyond my control. That has nothing to do with fitness or training.
I know though, you were an amateur boxer, so that makes you an expert. You were one of thousands of flabby idiots with no form and no skill who exhausted themselves by the second round throwing ineffective punches at each other for the sake of further degrading the sport of boxing and giving themselves hardons. Sorry for doubting you Mr. Pacquiao.
And to repeat myself (since you obviously did not read my post), I was not arguing that farmers are better fighters than professional athletes. I said that 100+ years ago when people did a lot of hard work since they were young (farm work being just one example of that), they had a lot better base to then go on and be athletes, then kids who grow up in the ghetto hanging out on the side of the street, or who sit in their 300k+ house playing Playstation as kids.
I don't walk around suggesting we institute a draft and place focus in military training on bayonet training like yourself. Lol I'm a flabby idiot now I guess. Coming from a boy who has said he is 300 plus pounds and is probably in no position to call anyone flabby.... so forgive me if I don't take that very seriously. Golden Gloves is a more serious competition than anything you have ever been involved in in the course of your entire life.
So now people are inferior if their houses are worth more than 300k? I never thought you would disrespect an individual based on their monetary status or that of their parents but I guess you would after all, disappointing. You know what athletes do now? They train for their respective sports. I started boxing when I was ten as a birthday present from my father (it was not requested) andkept going because I displayed a basic aptitude. I started playing football and basketball from about the age of 7 or 8. I started lifting weights when I was reaching 13 or 14 and parents allowed me too. As soon as I hit high school I started taking supplements and taking in absurd amounts of calories.
At the end of the day Vuk you know nothing about any sports, you know nothing about the human body, you know nothing about the nature of the athlete in the 21st century, and you sure as hell don't know anything about boxing.
You are right however.... Boxing is a joke and has been for quite a long time. Your "solution" is absurd though.
Edit: The absolute absurdity of someone saying an actual boxer, even amateur who has received any training has no skill when he himself bases his knowledge of boxing on youtube clips of fat rednecks in backyards fighting (a number of which I suspect mr. vuk has submitted) and barroom brawls at the family reunion (aka his town bar)
a completely inoffensive name
07-12-2012, 05:41
Vuk knows what he is talking about guys. As he is typing out his boxing thesis, he wears his "Insanity Workout" T-Shirt and is about to finish his last week of P90X.
Centurion1
07-12-2012, 06:48
Vuk knows what he is talking about guys. As he is typing out his boxing thesis, he wears his "Insanity Workout" T-Shirt and is about to finish his last week of P90X.
P90X doesnt involve enough farmwork or marines stabbing things with bayonets to interest The vuk
Major Robert Dump
07-12-2012, 13:16
Man, you guys are just downright meanies.
Please stop the personal attacks, gentlemen. You don't want me to knock you all out with a blink of my left eye. Yes, I'm that awesome.
Centurion1
07-12-2012, 16:29
Please stop the personal attacks, gentlemen. You don't want me to knock you all out with a blink of my left eye. Yes, I'm that awesome.
Did you train on a farm?
Did you train on a farm?
Yes, but it didn't field good. After an hour of work, I suffered from so many acres and payins that I called the crops to get me out of there.
Centurion1
07-12-2012, 16:45
Yes, but it didn't field good. After an hour of work, I suffered from so many acres and payins that I called the crops to get me out of there.
Did the horticopter have to fly you to the hosiptal?
a completely inoffensive name
07-12-2012, 21:40
These puns are amaizeing.
The padding in MMA gloves is mostly positioned by the knuckles to dissipate the majority of the force.
You punch harder with boxing gloves on. You are lying.
UFC fighters often still break their hands, there's been talk about switching to heavier gloves for years. Boxers still break their hands too, although not as often.
Your head is pretty solid, guys. It can take a hit. The gloves are for the hands.
Were just a few of the posts. Everyone on the thread was either arguing that less padding=less damage or were agreeing with them.
Strike For The South
08-22-2012, 05:08
You're not only a liar, you're also an idiot.
Life must be taxing
.,...
Can we seriously just do some kind of big orgah me(a)tup and have our own fight club? I call dibs on Vuk. Then strike and I get to give Turkish Oil Wrasslin' a go.
Strike For The South
08-22-2012, 05:42
I say we just cut to the chase and screw
:)
Major Robert Dump
08-22-2012, 13:53
We should start a third thread for that
ajaxfetish
08-23-2012, 03:11
The padding in MMA gloves is mostly positioned by the knuckles to dissipate the majority of the force.
You punch harder with boxing gloves on. You are lying.
UFC fighters often still break their hands, there's been talk about switching to heavier gloves for years. Boxers still break their hands too, although not as often.
Your head is pretty solid, guys. It can take a hit. The gloves are for the hands.Were just a few of the posts. Everyone on the thread was either arguing that less padding=less damage or were agreeing with them.
Let's see.
StfS says that the padding in UFC gloves is placed to protect the striker's hands rather than to protect the strikee's head, and that strikes with gloves on are harder than with gloves off. No mention of the weight of the gloves having any effect on the force of the punch, just presence vs. absence.
GC says that UFC fighters (with lighter gloves) break their hands more often than boxers, so heavier gloves provide more hand protection, and mentions talk of the UFC switching to heavier gloves, presumably to provide more protection. No mention of harder hits with more padding.
Can you find any actual instances of people in the thread claiming heavier gloves allow harder hits, or only more instances of people saying heavier gloves provide more protection?
Ajax
Let's just replace boxing with pankration. While we're at it, let's relax the rules a bit (we can call it Extreme Pankration) and allow biting and eye gouging. That should be fun.
Let's just replace boxing with pankration. While we're at it, let's relax the rules a bit (we can call it Extreme Pankration) and allow biting and eye gouging. That should be fun.
Go rewatch the first few UFCs.
Let's see.
StfS says that the padding in UFC gloves is placed to protect the striker's hands rather than to protect the strikee's head, and that strikes with gloves on are harder than with gloves off. No mention of the weight of the gloves having any effect on the force of the punch, just presence vs. absence.
GC says that UFC fighters (with lighter gloves) break their hands more often than boxers, so heavier gloves provide more hand protection, and mentions talk of the UFC switching to heavier gloves, presumably to provide more protection. No mention of harder hits with more padding.
Can you find any actual instances of people in the thread claiming heavier gloves allow harder hits, or only more instances of people saying heavier gloves provide more protection?
Ajax
SFTS was responding to my post where I said that a punch with a UFC glove had a greater effect on someone than a punch with an 18oz boxing glove. Strike's post was disputing that and calling me a liar. His post was obviously, when context is considered, not saying that a punch with a boxing glove is more powerful than a bare-fisted strike, but is more powerful than one with a UFC glove. (and in his limited mind, more power=more effect)
Also, what as the point of GC's post if not to say that heavier gloves are more effective because even the UFC is thinking of switching to them?
If you re-read my first post, I said that the sport of boxing should start using hand wraps and light protection (such as a layer of leather) instead of heavy gloves, so that boxing becomes more similar to bareknuckle boxing. My prescription was not to use the naked hand, but to use lighter protection to make it more similar to the naked hand. I only prescribed the naked hand for people training boxing for self-defense. The whole discussion about the effectiveness of the naked hand came about because I said that someone from the 1800s who trained with the naked fist would be able to defeat a modern boxer in a real fight.
At least half of the argument of this thread was over the advantages or disadvantages of heavy or lighter gloves, and everyone came down against me in the argument. Maybe you should reread the thread.
Let's just replace boxing with pankration. While we're at it, let's relax the rules a bit (we can call it Extreme Pankration) and allow biting and eye gouging. That should be fun.
Hey, I got nothing against pankration, but it is not boxing. I am talking about the sport of boxing.
UFC 1 is mandatory viewing for anyone who's interested in Martial Arts. Every fight is a classic, and some of them are downright absurd.
Hey now GC, don't tell me you like bloodsports! :O Funny that when I talked about a version of boxing that would still have many more rules than UFC 1 did, everyone thought it was horrible, yet the love the UFC1 where many more things are allowed.
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