Foot skirmishers

[BelisarAUT]

While javalin cavalry seems pretty useful against other cavalry, regular skirmishers such as Peltastai feel a bit useless. Aren't they supposed to fight archers and harass the main battle line? But as soon as a archer unit goes into loose formation or the attacked units have a bit armor and/or shield the javalins of skirmishers seem to have no effect.

Maybe im missing something but i feel like that other than the Thracian Peltastai (who are strong in melee) they just have no place.

[The Celtic Viking]

I love the regular Peltastai and the Thraikians are great. You just don't waste their javelins on archers and instead use them against the rear of engaged, enemy infantry and then watch them leg it before the sound of them crying uncle can even make it to your ears. Not to mention they can fill in a melee role too (and the Thraikians more than just fill it), and are one of the few defences against elephants.

[Kival]

Also levy javelinmen are quite good vs archers.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Javelin men aren't great against loose formation archers because javelins in the same tier as archers are considerably less accurate. Levy skirms are decent at wasting archer ammo but not much more than that. A good way to use the cheaper skirmishers (i.e. those cheaper than 1100 and therefore not too valuable) is as protectors for your archers. They can shadow them a few meters back and if enemy infantry or cavalry comes to attack, they can hopefully shower them with javelins as the archers fall back. Unmassed cavalry will often fail to rout loose formation skirms and if you can bog them down the archers can get back into place to shower the cav when they realize its time to retreat.

The cheaper spear armed ones are also very good cavalry companions. I like to use Numidians or any of the Iberian ones in these roles. They can protect your cavalry from the opponents with their spears and can also shower enemy infantry flanks as they push forward.

[-Stormrage-]

While javalin cavalry seems pretty useful against other cavalry, regular skirmishers such as Peltastai feel a bit useless. Aren't they supposed to fight archers and harass the main battle line? But as soon as a archer unit goes into loose formation or the attacked units have a bit armor and/or shield the javalins of skirmishers seem to have no effect.

Maybe im missing something but i feel like that other than the Thracian Peltastai (who are strong in melee) they just have no place.

Agreed. They're not as good as one wouid hope.

[BelisarAUT]

I still don't know why i should bring them. If i use them instead of additional archers i will lose the range advantage while being only very slightly stronger in melee and i will be forced to attacked. And when used instead of additional infantery i lose significant melee strength.

Maybe im just wrong but i thought skirmishers should fulfil a similar role like they do in Napoleon Total War where they are really needed because enemy skirmishers would not only force you to attack but also harass the hell out of your main infantery line.

In Napoleon i especially liked the concept of ranged units because each had significant strengths. While in Empire longer ranged skirmishers (sharpshooters, i compare them with bows and slingers in this game) were above all light infantery, in Napoleon they only gave you the range advantage but once in range regular skirmishers were significant more effective and were able to defeat sharpshooters quite effectively while doing also decent harass damage against normal infantery forcing them to attack.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I've made my preferences known regarding this. I think archers are far too accurate compared with slingers and foot skirmishers. The fact that many archers have the same attack rating as foot skirmishers is in my opinion absurd as well.

[antisocialmunky]

Unless Big Shield Peltastai have been nerfed, they were basically really good line backers for jav cavalry. It used to be that peltastai + medium cav had an advantage against cheap missile + heavy charger cav because cheap missiles can't melee. Thus, you have one 'extra' unit after the missile duel.

[Memnon]

How does one counter Thraikian peltasts anyway? Any cavalry I send gets butchered, infantry can't catch it until they're tired, and then they lose, and unless I build masses of slingers I can't seem to even put a dent in their numbers with missiles. The only thing I haven't tried is jan cav, are they effective against them? So far I've had to distract them with cavalry while sending heavy infantry in a snarky flank attack, it works well, but takes so much more micromanagement than I'd like. Any suggestions?

[vartan]

Have you tried ignoring them? I hear they were last seen missing the AP attribute and carrying low-accuracy javelins. In melee they can be easily countered by a majority of heavier and better-equipped units.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Thracian Peltasts aren't as fast as most other skirmishers and while being good in melee, are not phenomenal. They will lose to most heavier units and quite a few medium ones as well.

[Velho]

If youre using koinon helleon you could try the ektromoi hoplitais they were made to catch the skirms like peltastai
(i dont remeber the name correctly)

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Lol I can almost guarantee that Erkdromoi will lose to Thracians. They should beat regular Peltastai though.

[Lazy O]

Because ignoring a problem will make it go away, this is true in EBO .

[-Stormrage-]

I vote we admit, Foot skirmishers are highly under powered with their absurdly low accuracy and significantly low attack.

Now someone might say, we gave them low attack becuase theyre supposed to kill light infantry. My reply to this is, Guys lets face it we dont have light infantry.

Must i also remind you just about everything in eb has 4 to 5 size sheild infront of it. Not to mention high armour values.

On one side we have most units with 4/5 sheild with an average of 8 armour. On the other side we have skirmishers with 6 attack low accuracy.

You be the judge.

[Arjos]

Storm, shields for heavy infantry were designed mainly to stop missiles, among other things...
To even think that skirmishers are supposed to kill frontally heavier units is ridiculous...

Little tip for those who don't know how to use skirmishers: try flanking XD

[BelisarAUT]

You can flank with archers too and they have more range + way more munition. Pick Cretans for instance and you have almost the same melee capability like Peltastai or Thrakoi Peltastai have at similiar costs.

[-Stormrage-]

Storm, shields for heavy infantry were designed mainly to stop missiles, among other things...
To even think that skirmishers are supposed to kill frontally heavier units is ridiculous...

Little tip for those who don't know how to use skirmishers: try flanking XD


yah my problem with that is everything is heavy infantry.

[Arjos]

You picked one of the archers unit (together with Syriakoi and Thureopherontes) that is more of a melee unit...
Sure it can work, but unlike Peltastai, you need to extend your front a lot and provide protection with your cavalry, far from your infantry...

Skirmishers also kill faster and usually have better melee weapons and bigger shields, but archers are more consistent...
Point is no one is forcing you to use one, you have choices...

[BelisarAUT]

Well, i think all factions that have access to Peltastai have access to heavy archer ssuch as Cretans. lol

[vartan]

@OP: Put shortly, fortunately or unfortunately, do not expect multiplayer to play out on the basis of faction and unit descriptions. I do not have a disclaimer on the site, but it is understood (fairly quickly, I would imagine, for a newcomer) that multiplayer battle does not play out as per a historical prescription. For lovers of such niceties as the historicity of battles, some of our players have self-organized events wherein they meet online and reenact historical battles as best they can, while maintaining the fun factor.

[antisocialmunky]

Ekdromoi are the crappiest units ever.

[BelisarAUT]

vartan, i fully understand you. Though i personally believe javlins should do more damage than arrows. I didn't just outright mention that because i wanted to see how more experienced players think about this topic.

I'm not even sure if it's realistic but shouldn't javelins harm more than arrows?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Well it depends. Arrows travel faster than javelins generally but have considerably less mass. The difference between the two, which the engine cannot determine between, is that arrows would more often harm an opponent, taking him out of the battle, while a hit from a javelin would be more likely to kill. Also javelins have a nasty effect of getting stuck into shields rendering them useless if they cannot be removed. Neither of those two are capable of being rendered by Rome's engine and therefore cannot be represented properly.

[-Stormrage-]

But the thing which can be represented, is the jav's better killing power.

I say give javs +2 attack.

Who's with meee!

[vartan]

Well it depends. Arrows travel faster than javelins generally but have considerably less mass. The difference between the two, which the engine cannot determine between, is that arrows would more often harm an opponent, taking him out of the battle, while a hit from a javelin would be more likely to kill. Also javelins have a nasty effect of getting stuck into shields rendering them useless if they cannot be removed. Neither of those two are capable of being rendered by Rome's engine and therefore cannot be represented properly.

Here's to hoping R2TW brings some visual realism and a plethora of niceties we dream of.

[-Stormrage-]

Here's to hoping R2TW brings some visual realism and a plethora of niceties we dream of.

Isnt that like a year from now, thats if we're alive by then.

[gamegeek2]

We can also play EBNOM and work out the balance issue there (where we have a clean slate), then port the whole system to EB.

[antisocialmunky]

I'd imagine that Javelin accuracy would be better due to the ranges used.

[gamegeek2]

I'd imagine that Javelin accuracy would be better due to the ranges used.

At the ranges used the javelin is more accurate, but at 20 meters which is the more accurate weapon? That's the comparison you have to make.

[antisocialmunky]

Depends on how good the user is, after all it originated as a hunting weapon for spearing game at a range where the prey would not notice.