Back in the USSR.

[InsaneApache]

Well here we have it. The government, via it's lackey the HMRC is asking the kids in school to report anyone they know who is avoiding tax and or screwing the benefit system. This seems familiar.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4rBDUJTnNU&feature=player_embedded

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/petermullen/100172650/hm-revenue-and-customs-want-school-kids-to-snitch-on-tax-dodgers-it-smacks-of-eastern-europe-pre-1989/

[HoreTore]

It was very unsurprising to find out that this case had no basis in reality whatsoever.


When critics of the british state needs to invent things out of thin air to have something to critizise, I take it as a clear sign that the british state is doing fine.

[rory_20_uk]

Until people don't have the ability to not rip off the state is is not unreasonable to ask others to do their civic duty.

In the last couple of weeks we have had a lottary millionaire and someone employed by the BBC taking benefits.

I am not anti poor. I think that the super rich avoiding taxes are equally reprehensible. Their only limited defence is at least they tend to spend a lot of money in the country and at least remain a net contributor to the state. Benefit cheats tend to be a net taker.

~:smoking:

[InsaneApache]

Is it just me then that thinks it's a bit sinister to encourage children to split on their parents. Because that's what it is.

As for the politicians lecturing us on the morals of paying your tax! :dizzy2:

I've obviously woken up in a parallel universe.

[HoreTore]

I've obviously woken up in a parallel universe.

Indeed you have, since what you have made of this case has nothing to do with the actual universe. The government is not asking school kids to snitch. Sorry to kill your buzz.

[InsaneApache]

One module, headlined “tax responsibilities of a good citizen”, aims to help teenagers “understand the obligations if being a good citizen and discuss what should happen to hose who are not prepared to work under such obligations”.

One lesson plan – targeted at 14 to 16 year olds – requires students to “discuss whether it is good to pay the tax we do, considering the benefits we receive. If it is good, then why do people try not to pay?”

It continues: “Show class the remaining factfile slides on tax evasion. What do students think of those who refuse to pay tax or try and defraud the benefits system?

“Can they think of any example they may have heard of in their local area?”

A further “plenary session” asks: “What do students now think about paying taxes? In what other ways can we contribute to working together for a better society?

“What do students think about people who try to avoid paying taxes? Is it a victimless crime? What kind of penalties should such people be given when they are caught?”

Hmmm I obviously mistaken then.

[HoreTore]

Yes, that's an example of concretization, a standard tool in education.

It would take a parallell universe to make that into "kids snitching on their parents on behalf of the tax authorities".

[InsaneApache]

Yes, that's an example of concretization, a standard tool in education.

It would take a parallell universe to make that into "kids snitching on their parents on behalf of the tax authorities".

Except it's nothing to do with education which falls under the DOE. This was issued by the HMRC which collects taxes. Is that a bit clearer for you now?

[rory_20_uk]

Unless you are suggesting children should be expected to hide crimes their parents are committing, I'm still uncertian to the point.

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

Except it's nothing to do with education which falls under the DOE. This was issued by the HMRC which collects taxes. Is that a bit clearer for you now?

Lots of organizations provide material for education. It's only natural that the tax authorities are among them, since taxation is in the curriculum in at least two subjects. Churches do it, banks do it, IT companies do it, everyone and their mom does it.

While no teacher uses the material from start to finish, it is still of great help. It provides ideas, inspiration, examples, assignments, etc. Usually when I start planning how to teach a subject, I look through these looking for ideas as well as actual examples, which I then modify slightly or heavily so that it fits what I intend my students to learn.

On the subjet of taxes, specifically tax evasion, a question like the one above is quite mandatory. Tax evasion can be a highly abstract subject, and students need to tie it down to something they already know in order to grasp it(this is a constructivist view of education, mind you). There are two ways to approach this. You can either start with the concrete and move to the abstract, or you can start with the abstract and move it to the concrete. The material you have come across does the latter. I don't really have a preference here, I think both work equally well and it depends more on what comes natural.

Just before summer, I was teaching about the move from heavy industry to the current economy, and I did the opposite: I started by getting my students to identify some old buildings in my town(an office building, a stock exchange and an apartment complex), got them to find out what they used to be(a rubber factory, a stock exchange for timber and toll booth/dock warehouses) and had them figure out why they changed that way. Then we moved to the national level and finally looked at the international level. Worked great, if I may say so.

[rvg]

Unless you are suggesting children should be expected to hide crimes their parents are committing, I'm still uncertian to the point.

~:smoking:

Do you seriously expect a child to be able to detect a crime such as tax evasion? What the government will get out of this at best is a whole bunch of false alarms and lots of annoyed parents with clean reputation and good lawyers.

[HoreTore]

Do you seriously expect a child to be able to detect a crime such as tax evasion? What the government will get out of this at best is a whole bunch of false alarms and lots of annoyed parents with clean reputation and good lawyers.

Fortunately, this story is false, so the government won't have to worry about that kind of thing.

You are right, however, that a student would not divulge information on those close to them. The 15-year old because they know it's not appropriate/smart, the younger ones(which this module isn't for) won't know what it is anyway.

If I asked the question "do you know of any tax evasion/fraud here in your local area" to a class after discussing tax evasion, I would expect the following answers:

- some stories about how carpenters and such do work on the side
- a local celebrity/businessman/whatever who had been charged with tax evasion in the past, given the existance of such a figure
- a case widely reported in the national media in the past few weeks. Again given the existance of such a case
- local folklore about the dealings of some minor local business(kebab shop, pub, etc)
- one "wild card answer"

[rvg]

If I asked the question "do you know of any tax evasion/fraud here in your local area" to a class after discussing tax evasion, I would expect the following answers:

- some stories about how carpenters and such do work on the side
- a local celebrity/businessman/whatever who had been charged with tax evasion in the past, given the existance of such a figure
- a case widely reported in the national media in the past few weeks. Again given the existance of such a case
- local folklore about the dealings of some minor local business(kebab shop, pub, etc)
- one "wild card answer"

Asking for examples is one thing, following up on hearsay generated by kids is a whole different story. The former would help the kids better define and understand the issue, the latter would be a waste of taxpayers' money.

[HoreTore]

following up on hearsay generated by kids is a whole different story.

...and also something noone is proposing to do.

It's on the same level as the governments plan to harvest smurf-berries and turn them into cheap energy, while massacring the smurfs in the process.

[rory_20_uk]

Do you seriously expect a child to be able to detect a crime such as tax evasion? What the government will get out of this at best is a whole bunch of false alarms and lots of annoyed parents with clean reputation and good lawyers.

I am pretty sure a 15 year old can detect tax evasion in some cases.

I am sure there will be false alarms. But since this is a screening test that is acceptable.

Perhaps the government would review the alarms, investigate the most plausible, collect information above hearsay and action it?


~:smoking:

[rvg]

I am pretty sure a 15 year old can detect tax evasion in some cases.

Such as? Barring the case of "Go to sleep, junior, Ima gunna do me some tax evadin'".

[Tellos Athenaios]

Over here, and I guess in the UK we expect 15 year olds to have a little more knowledge of "how the world works" so to speak. Of things like accepting upfront cash payments of smaller amounts after normal working hours instead of larger fees in exchange for proper paperwork. Plumbers and other self employed craftsmen might propose that. I don't know about 15 year olds in the USA, but you can bet that payment is not going to end up in the books, therefore it won't be taxed.

[rvg]

Over here, and I guess in the UK we expect 15 year olds to have a little more knowledge of "how the world works" so to speak. Of things like accepting upfront cash payments of smaller amounts after normal working hours instead of larger fees in exchange for proper paperwork. Plumbers and other self employed craftsmen might propose that.

Do they take their knowledgeable 15 y.o.s to work with them? Or maybe have their teenagers do their taxes?



I don't know about 15 year olds in the USA, but you can bet that payment is not going to end up in the books, therefore it won't be taxed.
Right, because if one plumber is a crook, then all of them are crooks.

[Fragony]

Over here, and I guess in the UK we expect 15 year olds to have a little more knowledge of "how the world works" so to speak. Of things like accepting upfront cash payments of smaller amounts after normal working hours instead of larger fees in exchange for proper paperwork. Plumbers and other self employed craftsmen might propose that. I don't know about 15 year olds in the USA, but you can bet that payment is not going to end up in the books, therefore it won't be taxed.

Not just 15 year olds, not paying taxes over jobs is very commonly accepted in lots stuff. Nobody minds you not paying tax on your house cleaner or a reparation of something. You are an idiot if you do that legally.

[Fragony]

Right, because if one plumber is a crook, then all of them are crooks.

Almost all work from the book here, it's commonly accepted, we don't see it as anything bad

[rvg]

Almost all work from the book here, it's commonly accepted, we don't see it as anything bad

We're talking about the UK though. Dutch government is not the one asking kids to rat on their parents.

[Fragony]

We're talking about the UK though. Dutch government is not the one asking kids to rat on their parents.

The UK is a weird country in many ways, it has always been somewhat fascist. Not the really ugly kind but creepy nevertheless.

[truth1337]

Well here we have it. The government, via it's lackey the HMRC is asking the kids in school to report anyone they know who is avoiding tax and or screwing the benefit system. This seems familiar.

UK is the worst communist country in Europe, I think, after reading about how they registered 3 year olds in a register if they used the word "gay" in a derogatory manner in the playground. Seriously, you guys need a paleo-conservative or national pacifistic-socialistic revolution to cleanse your country of the political correctness mofos. Just hope you find real nationalists who love their people to do it, rather than undercover commie-liberals like EDL.