The ban on Holocaust denial is crap [Archive]

Andres

08-08-2012, 15:42

It's a cirminal offense in my country.

In my country, websites can be shut down for allowing holocaust denail and the owners can be prosecuted (and usually, they are, or they at least face threats). Racism and spreading hate is also a criminal offense and you can be prosecuted for posting it or for allowing it and/or accomodate somebody to express that sort of opnions.

Allthough the .Org doesn't fall under Belgian legislation, I do fall under it. By allowing it in my capacity as forum admin, I may risk prosecution.

My personal opinion on the matter: I dislike the Belgian law that makes denial of the holocaust a criminal offense. Not because I myself deny it, but because I think freedom of speech should be absolute. If someone wants to express such thoughts, then it should be possible. That's the whole idea of freedom of speech after all. In fact, I think such laws, no matter how well intentioned and no matter how noble the motives of those who made it, are dangerous precedents and may even motivate some people to believe that that what's being forbidden, must be true.

That said, there's a centre in Belgium, the CGKR (Centre for equal chances and fighting racism; roughly translated) and they look at every complaint and do take action. I frequent other fora and I know from one (a Belgian one) that got into trouble because they refused to delete a few blatant racist posts by some of their members. Luckily for them, deleting the stuff and explicitly stating in their TOS that from now on violating the applicable Belgian legislation on the matter is not allowed, was enough to stay in the air. But it shows how far this legislation, how intrusive it is and that it is being enforced with regards to Belgian citizens. And I'm going to be very honest: I'm no hero who's going to risk prosecution by "fighting the good fight for freedom of speech in Belgium".

I also must admit that I don't know all the details of this particular law and if it would be possible to get into trouble by simply being an Admin on a non-Belgian hosted site, but I'm sure it's understandable to all that I'm not going to take any risks.

Tellos Athenaios

08-08-2012, 21:13

My opinion: (a) carping on about a certain patron gets wearisome, it is not cool or impressive in any way even if the patron is spectacularly misinformed at times; (b) freedom of speech is not absolute; and (c) to deny the holocaust is to delude yourself.

Montmorency

08-09-2012, 05:40

(b) freedom of speech is not absolute

True, though Andres apparently wishes for it to be.

(c) to deny the holocaust is to delude yourself.

If deluding oneself were a breach of ToS...

All in all, bringing down truth was necessary if only because he was coming to dominate the Backroom. If truth had become as widespread as he threatened, the stability of the Backroom would have been compromised. Plainly speaking, Backroom patrons had become overly exposed to truth, and this exposure came to affect their judgement. Were truth to reign...your point (a) would be equivalent to non-participation.

Monk

08-09-2012, 13:44

:rolleyes:

SoFarSoGood

08-09-2012, 17:04

ALL opinions should be free on the web. I may disagree with your opinion but I would die for your right to express it.

Whacker

08-09-2012, 17:18

johnhughthom

08-09-2012, 20:53

Andres

08-10-2012, 08:18

Andres, I have a very hard time believing that you could be prosecuted for being a moderator on a forum that allows discussion about the holocaust. I would think the two main issues are 1. where is the forum hosted from, and 2. who actually owns the forums? What you are implying is that any nation could apply their own individual laws at whim to a forum that's publicly available to the entire world. I find that essentially impossible to believe.

You mustn't forget that I hail from the country that deemed itself competent to file in lawsuits against presidents of befriended nations based on Belgian national law... (http://rense.com/general38/belg.htm)

It's a bit of a stretch and it would be utterly ridiculous, but one could argue that a Belgian accomodating for holocaust denial on the internet violates the Belgian law against holocaust denial; this site is indeed publicly available all over the world; that includes Belgium. I don't think those arguments would hold stake in a court of law, but I'm sure you understand I can miss the trouble. And even if not convicted, I may get a label which might ruin my entire career. You know how present days societies work: simply being accused puts a label on you, even if you're completely innocent.

I hate that law, but it's applicable and I'm not in a position to change it. Nor am I willing to stick out my neck.

Fragony

08-10-2012, 08:57

Server isn't situated in Belgium so it won't get you into trouble, it's denied on sites like Stormfront all the time also by people from Belgium

Andres

08-10-2012, 10:12

Server isn't situated in Belgium so it won't get you into trouble, it's denied on sites like Stormfront all the time also by people from Belgium

I prefer my own opinion on that matter over the opinion of the visitors of Stormfront who may be taking their wishes for granted.

There's a nuance: the .Org as a website cannot be taken out of the air (allthough there have been instances of foreign websites being convicted by Belgian courts, but still staying in the air, because the country that hosted them didn't want to execute the Belgian judgement; given the US stance on freedom of speech, US officials won't be taken out the .Org because of a Belgian judgement saying it violates Belgian law), but Andres, the Belgian administrator of the site, may face an annoying lawsuit or may receive threatening letters from the CGKR.

Granted, the risk is minimal, but I'm not taking it.

It's not like holocaust denial and spreading of hate is our core business anyway :shrug:

Fragony

08-10-2012, 11:41

It's a stupid law. I don't want holocaust deniers on the org but I expect them to be mauled by the orgers very soon. Freedom of speech goes very far on the org, making a point out of it not being allowed kinda taints it's awesomness. Did we ever had any holocaust-deniers in the first place I have never seen one

PanzerJaeger

08-10-2012, 14:17

Andres

08-10-2012, 16:01

Did I miss something? Where can I read more about this ban?

I have had some very frank discussions over the years here on the .org where I have denied (based on actual facts, of course) largely held ideas about the Holocaust. Is this simply a ban on denying the event took place at all, or are we expected to tow the line as dictated by the holocaust industry?

I understand Andres situation and have no problem with a ban, I just want to know where the "line" is.

There's a whole world of difference between having an educated opinion and being able to cite several reliable sources on the one hand and saying something that comes down to "it are all lies and it never happened" spiced up with some spreading of hate against the Jewish people on the other hand.

If you have e.g. a decent source from an academic study X that shows that the numbers of victims mentioned in study Y is grossly exaggerated, then by all means, discuss numbers and have fun.

Fragony

08-10-2012, 16:30

There's a whole world of difference between having an educated opinion and being able to cite several reliable sources on the one hand and saying something that comes down to "it are all lies and it never happened" spiced up with some spreading of hate against the Jewish people on the other hand.

If you have e.g. a decent source from an academic study X that shows that the numbers of victims mentioned in study Y is grossly exaggerated, then by all means, discuss numbers and have fun.

That would still be holocaust denial by your country's (silly) laws Andres. I personally feel it should just be allowed here, who's going to do it anyway I never saw one here. Making a point out of it not being allowed doesn't really feel quite right, I think the staff should reconsider being so specific about this. Not to invite it, but certainly not to keep it out of here at all costs. There is enough concensus here on acceptable behaviour, if someone crosses the line you have the means to remove anyone tresspassing there. I am completily with Strike for filing this complaint.

Lemur

08-10-2012, 18:13

I personally feel it should just be allowed here, who's going to do it anyway I never saw one here.
Your fellow leftists-are-to-blame-for-everything Euro-rightist, truth1337, posted a long, rambling denial of the Holocaust.

It was deleted, but if you were trawling the Backroom at the right time, you would have seen it.

I think the Belgian law is self-evidently stupid; the cure for hate speech is more speech. Let the idiots be idiotic, and let them get decimated in public. But if Andres feels that it isn't worth the risk, I'm okay with that. It's not as though we have a long history of thoughtful Holocaust-denial threads that we need to preserve for future generations.

Fragony

08-10-2012, 20:01

We don't disagree all that much

Beskar

08-10-2012, 23:27

He actually posted 2 or 3 posts worth of Holocaust denial ranting. I deleted the others after Andres took care of the main one thus dicating Org policy on the matter. I closed the topic it was in with this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?142164-What-can-YOU-do-to-help-defeat-communism&p=2053472992&viewfull=1#post2053472992) beforehand due to breaches of current rules.

Ended up quoting the main body of that post from a different website as it pretty much summed it up better than I felt I could, but Holocaust Denial isn't about facts or figures, it is effectively about Jews and Minimising the Tragedy. If you go to Yad Vashem (http://www.yadvashem.org/) it will tell you all the figures including how many they have successfully identified, all the main sites. They say about the approximation in the figures and what they are based upon. I know this because I have actually been to the musuem itself.

So even if we take the question of how the law in various countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial) affects patrons out of the equation, the main incitement associated with Holocaust Denial offends other Org policies, to quote from this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?135475-The-Org-Rules-amp-FAQ):

Posts containing any generally objectionable material: knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Posting of copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you or by The Org, is discouraged. The Org expects its patrons to remain civil even in the face of disagreements. Any kind of "flaming", slurs, or insults -- addressed to either an individual or a group -- is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times.
And in the backroom rules thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?142203-Welcome-to-the-Backroom-(FAQ)):

Nation and Religion Bashing

This occupation, a variant of trolling behaviour, deserves special mention. It is perfectly acceptable to take issue with a government or religious grouping, but we frown upon generalised insults.
Acceptable: "I can't stand the Lilliputian government's excessive use of hemp rope against innocents"
Unacceptable: ":daisy: Lilliputians are small-minded pygmies"

So the "Ban" was in place informally anyway. Just that recent events have formalised it.

PanzerJaeger

08-11-2012, 02:38

If you go to Yad Vashem (http://www.yadvashem.org/) it will tell you all the figures including how many they have successfully identified, all the main sites. They say about the approximation in the figures and what they are based upon. I know this because I have actually been to the musuem itself.

Oh look, they've added some new items to the online store.

Fragony

08-11-2012, 02:50

Don't get me wrong I fully trust the team's judgement, you don't have to explain yourself to me

@tiaxie

Husar

08-11-2012, 10:44

Three points:

1. Crazy people can be very entertaining.

2. Andres's safety trumps all. However, will all women here will be required to wear a burka while browsing the site because in some Afghan village the taliban might arrest an orgah if he browses a forum where the women don't wear burkas?

3. Belgium must be liberated.

Beskar

08-11-2012, 15:56

2. Andres's safety trumps all. However, will all women here will be required to wear a burka while browsing the site because in some Afghan village the taliban might arrest an orgah if he browses a forum where the women don't wear burkas?

Andres as an administrator does take legal responsibility for the website, therefore, can be held accountable for the content on it, even those from other users.

As such in your example, Secura and Froggy don't live in the hypothetical "Afghan village" so they won't be accountable for female posters not wearing burkas. It is up to the individual members whether or not their activities and postings on the forum are legal in their respective countries and only exception is when those legally responsible for the forum can be prosecuted.

Another example is some one posting links to pirated software/warez. All three administrators would be held accountable for allowing that content on the forum if they do not remove it. Is that "against free speech" ?

With the great power of Free Speech comes the great responsibility of being truthful and reasonable.

Fragony

08-12-2012, 04:37

I don't think that he takes legal responsibility for the content on a site that is not registered in Belgium, in the case of warez or other illegal content like child pornogrphy probably, but not for holocaust denial of members. Stupid law anyhow, the laws on hate-speech are solid enough as they are. I don't consider holocaust-denial hate-speech though it just makes you an idiot

Alexander the Pretty Good

08-12-2012, 18:05

Oh look, they've added some new items to the online store.

Those money-grubbing Jews are at it again.

:rolleyes:

naut

08-13-2012, 05:22

Who cares either way, the result is the same, Holocaust denial is a type of insanity that is near infinite in its lunacy.

Visor

08-13-2012, 08:54

Go discuss holocaust denial somewhere else if you care about it so much. Andres doesn't need legal troubles from this IMO.

Secura

08-13-2012, 12:29

The Holocaust is a much debated period of history and has divided opinions for decades, leading to some fascinating discourse on the subject. I think it's a shame to stifle discussion simply because someone states their opinion that the events didn't happen and so I wish to clarify that there is not an outright ban on the subject itself, we just want people to be more mindful of the sensitivity of both the subject and their fellow Backroom patrons.

As Andres has stated, if you have evidence that supports your statements regarding Holocaust Denial, you should use them; simply voicing your opinion that events were "a conspiracy engineered by international Jewry" is both inappropriate and unwelcomed.

We have always been quite liberal in allowing people to discuss whatever colour of the political spectrum they belong to (and I'm glad to see that the Backroom being public hasn't hampered this), but the line has to be drawn when it comes to racist, sexist or homophobic comments. Holocaust discussion treads this line as it is, but I think we can keep our discussions clean and based in fact.

thechicken

08-13-2012, 17:22

Hi I'm a long time lurker (mainly interested in rome 2) and while reading just saw this thread and could not resist posting my opinion here.

Granted, the risk is minimal, but I'm not taking it.
I checked out the domain registration for this site and it looks like it's registered to 'atomic gamer', they appear to be the hosts and are not based in belgium, are you affiliated with them? If not and you are only a volunteer admin on this site then I do not see what you have got to stress about.

Nor am I willing to stick out my neck.
Sorry to be direct and I do not mean this as any insult, but if you think the site needs to be run according to belgian law, just to protect your own interests, then the best thing you can do is let someone else take over as the admin.

As to the ban on holocaust denial, may as well shut down the back room forum if you are going restrict free speech to that extent. I am not seeing the point in a forum for controversial threads if you are going to outlaw anything controversial. Some people have different whacked out ideas to others, there are people who believe there is a man in the sky who's son was nailed to a cross and there are those who believe that is garbage.

For example the perspectives on an event like 9/11 are very different depending on where in the world you come from or were born. Do you also propose a ban on any version of this except the accepted western version?

You are on a slippery slope.

Beskar

08-13-2012, 18:49

Hi I'm a long time lurker
Join Date: 13/08/12

As to the ban on holocaust denial, may as well shut down the back room forum if you are going restrict free speech to that extent. I am not seeing the point in a forum for controversial threads if you are going to outlaw anything controversial.

False argument. There is no outlawing of "anything controversial" and Holocaust Denial is pretty much ignoring the volume of evidence from every party involved (Allies, USSR, Nazi themselves) in order persuade the discussion of white-supremacy ideology to be more socially acceptable. It is usually associated with a string of statements that clearly "hate speech" and provides no constructive arguments to any logical debates.

Any arguments or points related to the holocaust are acceptable. Just an expressive viewpoint which is devoid from reality is illegal in a number of countries which end of the day, isn't a loss.

For example the perspectives on an event like 9/11 are very different depending on where in the world you come from or were born. Do you also propose a ban on any version of this except the accepted western version?
Do you believe 9/11 didn't happen?
I don't think there is anyone with a version where it is completely imaginary yet or put forward that point of view. There have been a great deal of various viewpoints on 9/11 from around the world and these have been discussed in the backroom.

Some people have different whacked out ideas to others, there are people who believe there is a man in the sky who's son was nailed to a cross and there are those who believe that is garbage.
Feel free to join the 101 Debates on Religion in the Backroom.

johnhughthom

08-13-2012, 19:15

Join Date: 13/08/12.

Rather uncalled for, I thought it was clear he meant he'd been lurking, before signing up to post his opinion here. Are you insinuating his opinion is invalid due to his sign up date?

Beskar

08-13-2012, 20:03

Rather uncalled for, I thought it was clear he meant he'd been lurking, before signing up to post his opinion here. Are you insinuating his opinion is invalid due to his sign up date?

I am implying that the particular statement is disingenuous. As I know you are aware of, the name implies that assertion. "Thechicken", using the slang-usage of "cowardice" as the user in question refrained from posting on their actual account, thereby giving a self-description of the purpose and nature of the account. Either way, I responded to the opinions on their own validity regardless. I was merely stating "No need to pretend".

Though you know this and couldn't resist the opportunity for an underhanded cheap-shot as per usual. :tongue:

johnhughthom

08-13-2012, 20:27

Underhanded? I resent that, I never try to hide the fact they are cheap shots. :stare:

thechicken

08-13-2012, 20:57

Join Date: 13/08/12
Is that the standard greeting for new members?

False argument. There is no outlawing of "anything controversial" and Holocaust Denial is pretty much ignoring the volume of evidence from every party involved (Allies, USSR, Nazi themselves) in order persuade the discussion of white-supremacy ideology to be more socially acceptable. It is usually associated with a string of statements that clearly "hate speech" and provides no constructive arguments to any logical debates.
Well holocaust denial is controversial and the administrators here have outlawed it. So no, I am afraid it is not a false argument.

I am not actually discussing holocaust denial or whether I believe in it or not. The thread was about the administrators outlawing controversial subjects such as holocaust denial.

Any arguments or points related to the holocaust are acceptable. Just an expressive viewpoint which is devoid from reality is illegal in a number of countries which end of the day, isn't a loss.
The best thing you can do is set up a shit load of accounts and do all of the posting yourself ok?

Do you believe 9/11 didn't happen?
If you establish a set of rules on what is true and what is false according to you and a small group of people, then what is there left to talk about? Who exactly set you up as an authority? You may as well throw 9/11 in there as well, there is no point in having a rule like this just for holocaust denial.

Feel free to join the 101 Debates on Religion in the Backroom.
Thanks for the offer but no thanks, I have no real interest in your particular brand of censored discussion.

As I know you are aware of, the name implies that assertion. "Thechicken", using the slang-usage of "cowardice" as the user in question refrained from posting on their actual account, thereby giving a self-description of the purpose and nature of the account.
Now that is funny, you got a serious paranoia issue there. Got nothing better to do than investigate the accounts of new members? Too many mod panel tools and too much time on your hands huh? I don't have an 'actual account' on this site, except this one, I'm not sure what you're referring to there? If you're referring to my use of tor. I ALWAYS use tor, is that against belgian law now as well? Some people in certain countries use it for very good reasons, I will not defend that. Don't like it? ban it.

Either way, I responded to the opinions on their own validity regardless. I was merely stating "No need to pretend".
You are going to great lengths to defend your actions, but only come across as an arrogant self assured asshole.

Though you know this and couldn't resist the opportunity for an underhanded cheap-shot as per usual. :tongue:
All of the under handed cheap shots have come from your direction.

Anyway, this place totally sucks, I will see what the total war center has to offer.

kthxbai

Hooahguy

08-13-2012, 22:10

So does this mean truth1337 is unbanned?

Vuk

08-13-2012, 22:12

My 2 cents:
I think free speech is important, and as we allow people to deny the Armenian genocide, white-wash communist attrocities world-wide, express sympathy for terrorists (and we got quite a few of those here), it does not make sense to pick and choose which unpopular and potentially insulting opinions will be allowed. There are plenty of wackos out there, and the best thing that can be done is for people to prove that they are wacko by allowing them to post their wacko opinions and people providing proof that they are indeed wacko.
The problem is worse when certain things are censored, because then reasonable discussion always gets grouped in with the wackiness, and legitimate opinions, backed by evidence are not allowed.

That is why I am glad for what Secura said. That said though, I can definitely understand Andres' concern. (Damn, that doesn't the government realise that brutal censorship was the first step in Nazi take over?)

Another thing that people don't think about is that a lot of people spouting their loony opinions are not loony people. They can be quite intelligent, good people who have been raised the wrong way or fallen in with idiots and brainwashed. Good, open discussion with people who disagree with them can do wonders for making them see the light. Look what it did to PJ! He went from Quasi-Neo Nazi to normal person due to discussion of the issues with normal people. He was never a bad guy, but just had some poorly informed beliefs.

drone

08-13-2012, 22:39

So does this mean truth1337 is unbanned?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?113326-Indefinite-Bannings

Andres

08-14-2012, 08:16

Hi I'm a long time lurker (mainly interested in rome 2) and while reading just saw this thread and could not resist posting my opinion here.

Hello and welcome, thechicken ~:wave: Glad to see you finally got to registering, allthough perhaps not for the most pleasant reasons :bow:

I checked out the domain registration for this site and it looks like it's registered to 'atomic gamer', they appear to be the hosts and are not based in belgium, are you affiliated with them? If not and you are only a volunteer admin on this site then I do not see what you have got to stress about.

I'm a Belgian citizen. The CGKR (the centre of equal chances and fighting of racism, roughly translated) states on their own website that they have the authority to even attack foreign based sites, but they do admit that most foreign countries don't give suit on Belgian judgements (e.g. the US will never execute a Belgian judgement based on the law against holocaust denial). So, the .Org is not at stake here.

I myself, however, am a Belgian citizen. I already said it's a stretch and the risk is minimal, but I also know how zealous the people of the CGKR can sometimes be and I'm not taking any risks when it comes to this sort of legislation. Not only is it a criminal law, but simply being accused of accomodating for holocaust deniers is a stain on my reputation and might ruin my future career. Don't get me wrong: I don't like doing this, at all. But I have other responsibilities besides being an .Org admin, so I don't take any risks. Period.

Sorry to be direct and I do not mean this as any insult, but if you think the site needs to be run according to belgian law, just to protect your own interests, then the best thing you can do is let someone else take over as the admin.

I have considered it. And if most people here want to be able to discuss Holocaust denial on the fora, then I'll gladly step down. I don't consider the .Org my property, I'm just a volunteer offering help.

As to the ban on holocaust denial, may as well shut down the back room forum if you are going restrict free speech to that extent. I am not seeing the point in a forum for controversial threads if you are going to outlaw anything controversial. Some people have different whacked out ideas to others, there are people who believe there is a man in the sky who's son was nailed to a cross and there are those who believe that is garbage.

That is true, but so far, only holocaust denial and hate speech are outlawed here. "Hate speech" has never been an issue here, since racism and the likes has always been against .Org rules.

Nothing much changes. But saying "the holocaust didn't happen, it are all lies, it's a conspiracy, etc." can't.

For example the perspectives on an event like 9/11 are very different depending on where in the world you come from or were born. Do you also propose a ban on any version of this except the accepted western version?

You are on a slippery slope.

That's up to the people running the BR, but a ban on a different version on that event doesn't seem necessary to me.

Lemur

08-14-2012, 14:53

You may as well throw 9/11 in there as well, there is no point in having a rule like this just for holocaust denial.
Translation: If there isn't a slippery slope handy, I will construct one using a slide, duct tape, lubricant and the garage.

This is not a slippery slope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#As_a_fallacy). The Org is not careening toward NewSpeak and ThoughtCrime. We do not have a long, rich history of Holocaust Denial threads that need protecting. More, as several have pointed out, we're all free to debate aspects of the Holocaust; we're just not free to declare it never happened. Which, given the vast amount of documents, eyewitnesses, films and firsthand accounts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoewTzRkeys), is no great sacrifice.

We accommodate Birthers, Truthers, Royalists, Flat Earthers, Biblical Literalists, Freemasons, Area 51/Roswell fans, Second Amendment absolutists, vegans, Paultards, Dittoheads, Randians, and crazy cat ladies. All without trouble. For an admin to specify one take on one topic that is out of bounds? Not Orwellian.

Vuk

08-14-2012, 17:49

Translation: If there isn't a slippery slope handy, I will construct one using a slide, duct tape, lubricant and the garage.

This is not a slippery slope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#As_a_fallacy). The Org is not careening toward NewSpeak and ThoughtCrime. We do not have a long, rich history of Holocaust Denial threads that need protecting. More, as several have pointed out, we're all free to debate aspects of the Holocaust; we're just not free to declare it never happened. Which, given the vast amount of documents, eyewitnesses, films and firsthand accounts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoewTzRkeys), is no great sacrifice.

We accommodate Birthers, Truthers, Royalists, Flat Earthers, Biblical Literalists, Freemasons, Area 51/Roswell fans, Second Amendment absolutists, vegans, Paultards, Dittoheads, Randians, and crazy cat ladies. All without trouble. For an admin to specify one take on one topic that is out of bounds? Not Orwellian.

Yes, we should be able to deny it happened. It would make you and idiot who is arguing against history, but the same can be said for many opinions held by idiots on this board.

The Great Flood did not happen. The Earth is flat. Bush planned 9/11. The Holocaust never happened. The Tea Party is a dangerous militant group. Communism is no longer a threat. I have a vagina.

All are arguments that intense historical research over years, decades, or centuries does not support, yet we are free to say all of them except the third. Are you afraid of insulting a potential 90+ year old who is viewing this forum? Then why do we allow people to deny the genocide that the Croatians commited against the Serbians through the years? (some just as recently as the 90s)
It is a discussion forum, and if you cannot handle discussion and views that you find offensive, then you shouldn't go to the Backroom. Why single this one historical event out and make such a big deal about it? Do you know how many other horid events happened in human history that people are perfectly free to deny? Some things even more horrible. Other nearly as horrible on a personal level, but on a much larger scale. It makes no sense to make such a big deal out of this one thing. Let the wackos come out of the closet, and let everyone else see them for who they are. The market regulates itself. Society is perfectly capable of ignoring these people or schooling them without the government banning them (an analogy for the moderators on this forum).

Hooahguy

08-14-2012, 18:39

Regardless of what you believe you must accept the reality that in some places its illegal and as such you must respect that, since by not doing so it may put fellow Orgahs at risk.

Montmorency

08-14-2012, 18:46

Yes, we should be able to deny it happened. It would make you and idiot who is arguing against history, but the same can be said for many opinions held by idiots on this board.

The Great Flood did not happen. The Earth is flat. Bush planned 9/11. The Holocaust never happened. The Tea Party is a dangerous militant group. Communism is no longer a threat. I have a vagina.

All are arguments that intense historical research over years, decades, or centuries does not support, yet we are free to say all of them except the third. Are you afraid of insulting a potential 90+ year old who is viewing this forum? Then why do we allow people to deny the genocide that the Croatians commited against the Serbians through the years? (some just as recently as the 90s)
It is a discussion forum, and if you cannot handle discussion and views that you find offensive, then you shouldn't go to the Backroom. Why single this one historical event out and make such a big deal about it? Do you know how many other horid events happened in human history that people are perfectly free to deny? Some things even more horrible. Other nearly as horrible on a personal level, but on a much larger scale. It makes no sense to make such a big deal out of this one thing. Let the wackos come out of the closet, and let everyone else see them for who they are. The market regulates itself. Society is perfectly capable of ignoring these people or schooling them without the government banning them (an analogy for the moderators on this forum).

This is a correct post, surely.

johnhughthom

08-14-2012, 20:49

This discussion is pretty much going round in circles. For me Andres not being in even the slightest danger of being taken to court and remaining admin here trumps unlikely to occur hypothetical free speech situations any day of the week.

a completely inoffensive name

08-15-2012, 05:01

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDbfCbQnH8

thechicken

08-15-2012, 11:21

Ok last attempt before I throw the towel in. I told myself not to, but there is some pretty funny stuff here.

Translation: If there isn't a slippery slope handy, I will construct one using a slide, duct tape, lubricant and the garage.
No translation needed, it is how I posted it: A slippery slope. Like I said, I guess it is better if the mod guys do all the posting, saves confusion, rules are followed, it is one of those win win things all round huh?

You can apply your holocaust denial ruling/amendment to 9 11 the armenian genocide and pretty much every war, massacre or controversial event in the history of the world. If you are going to have this 'proven fact according to westerners so do not question it' rule, it makes your super special back room forum worthless, but I bet you do not see it that way?

More, as several have pointed out, we're all free to debate aspects of the Holocaust; we're just not free to declare it never happened.
LOL!

And this andres guy is still full of angst about getting sued and posting the same diatribe again? Seriously look at yourselves W...T... F............... talk about making a mountain out of an ant hill!

Yes, we should be able to deny it happened. It would make you and idiot who is arguing against history, but the same can be said for many opinions held by idiots on this board.

The Great Flood did not happen. The Earth is flat. Bush planned 9/11. The Holocaust never happened. The Tea Party is a dangerous militant group. Communism is no longer a threat. I have a vagina.

All are arguments that intense historical research over years, decades, or centuries does not support, yet we are free to say all of them except the third. Are you afraid of insulting a potential 90+ year old who is viewing this forum? Then why do we allow people to deny the genocide that the Croatians commited against the Serbians through the years? (some just as recently as the 90s)
It is a discussion forum, and if you cannot handle discussion and views that you find offensive, then you shouldn't go to the Backroom. Why single this one historical event out and make such a big deal about it? Do you know how many other horid events happened in human history that people are perfectly free to deny? Some things even more horrible. Other nearly as horrible on a personal level, but on a much larger scale. It makes no sense to make such a big deal out of this one thing. Let the wackos come out of the closet, and let everyone else see them for who they are. The market regulates itself. Society is perfectly capable of ignoring these people or schooling them without the government banning them (an analogy for the moderators on this forum).
Makes a lot of sense fella, but I am sure your leaders here will explain to you just how wrong you are very shortly.

LOL! seriously this is the best laugh I had all day but I really should go now, over and out.

Sigurd

08-15-2012, 13:39

Why the hell do we need to adhere to "free speech" in the first place?

So the buzzer got kicked off our local curb by the resident shop keeper with a clear message of "bugger off, get yerself to another street corner with your bollocks".
I don't see the inherent problem here. This is a site for totalwar fans - to primarily read and discuss totalwar games.

Andres

08-15-2012, 14:32

No translation needed, it is how I posted it: A slippery slope. Like I said, I guess it is better if the mod guys do all the posting, saves confusion, rules are followed, it is one of those win win things all round huh?

You can apply your holocaust denial ruling/amendment to 9 11 the armenian genocide and pretty much every war, massacre or controversial event in the history of the world. If you are going to have this 'proven fact according to westerners so do not question it' rule, it makes your super special back room forum worthless, but I bet you do not see it that way?

LOL!

And this andres guy is still full of angst about getting sued and posting the same diatribe again? Seriously look at yourselves W...T... F............... talk about making a mountain out of an ant hill!

You're the one making a mountain out of an ant hill here.

Nothing has changed except that Holocaust denial being specifically labeled as "not allowed". One could argue if Holocaust denial in the style done by truth1337 wasn't already violating our general forum rules, but that's a different question.

The reason for specifically banning Holocaust denial is clear: risk that yours truly gets into trouble with his own national authorities because of his national law. It's a very, very small risk, I grant you that. But I don't want to take it, because I have a wife and kid and aim to exercise a profession that requires a completely stainless reputation and clean sheet. That's the only reason. It's not banned because it fits the personal opinions of staff; in fact, I didn't consult with my staff about this, not even with my fellow Admins; I acted alone and it's my decision alone, so there's no need to blame all moderators and other staff because of this. If you insist on blaming someone for the discomfort this decision causes, then blame me and only me; nobody else. Your insinuations about all staff that is not Andres are incorrect and false. You're entitled to hold your opinion that I'm placing my personal interests above those of the site and that I should step down because of it.

I apologise for the possible inconvenience this decision may cause, but it will stand and won't be altered.

drone

08-15-2012, 15:19

Personally, I think laws against Holocaust denial are stupid and misguided. It's way more fun to point and laugh at the machinations of the racists. That being said, the Org has never been a full free speech zone. We already have topics that are forbidden, and some of them are forbidden for legal reasons (they would get us in trouble). This is no different.

Papewaio

08-15-2012, 23:14

Patrons are asked to self moderate themselves.

Mr Elite Truths statements would be considered Holcaust Denial which can trigger problems for members in Belgium and Germany. Considering one of our current admins is a Belgium resident, a previous one is German and Tosa will always be a part of the Netherlands where he lays in rest... We have quite a few patrons who are law abiding citizens and administrators who are held accountable for the overall tone and actions of the Org.

Andres approach was a surgical strike on the problematic issue at hand. My approach that I've unsuccessfully argued for was more akin to castration with a pair of bricks. I have lobbied for a more broader approach that would make such a topic banned under more general terms.

Andres approach creates a self contained event and follows the Orgs approach to copyright and piracy. You can discuss piracy at the Org, you cannot however commit piracy at the Org. You can discuss the Holocaust, it's facts and figures, you can discuss Holocaust Denial, you cannot however commit Holocaust Denial at the Org.

=][=

Vuk these have been some of the wisest posts I've seen from you. Keep bringing your A game to the backroom.

thechicken you've made some good posts, riled a few feathers, and touched up the paranoid. You are a natural for the Backroom. Also you might want to increase your post count to post length ratio as posts in a Watchtower don't count. I'm sure your posts and eloquence will find some worthy adversaries amongst the patrons.