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InsaneApache
08-14-2012, 13:57
Here in the UK a consultation has just ended on plain packaging for cigarettes. I believe that Australia is about to introduce it. I just don't think that it's a good idea. Not to mention the prospect of it being rolled out for booze and 'junk' foods. The 'slippery slope' principle IMO.

Here's an article that sums up my thoughts.


As a UK government consultation on plain packaging for cigarettes ends, this think-tank fellow wonders why anti-smoking campaigners are addicted to new legislation even when bereft of empirical evidence to support their claims

Is the anti-smoking movement addicted to legislation? If so, is it possible to wean these people off silly laws and return them into the community? I ask the question because every year the crusaders fire up their formidable PR machine and every year their policies become more surreal. Cigarette prices sky high? Make a pack cost £100. Graphic health warnings did not work? Put the cigarettes behind shutters. Shutters fail to do the trick? Make all cigarette packs brown. Perhaps the whole enterprise is a Situationist prank designed to see if there is any policy too preposterous to be enshrined in law under the pretext of protecting kiddies.

It is easy to see why anti-smoking policies sail through parliament so regularly. They allow politicians to make a gesture about an unhealthy habit at little or no cost to themselves. The latest wheeze is plain packaging, a policy that has never been tried anywhere in the world, but which the crusaders nevertheless claim to have a mountain of evidence which proves it will work. The evidence they cite shows nothing of the sort. They merely ask people whether they think a conventional cigarette pack looks better than a mocked up plain pack, which is coloured 'faecal brown' and sports a large photo of a gangrenous foot. It is no great surprise that those surveyed usually prefer the normal pack, but it tells us nothing about whether fewer people would smoke as a result. If you give me a wine label and a felt tip, I will make it look less appealing, but I would never be so disingenuous as to claim that I can reduce underage drinking using the same tools.

It is, however, telling that when the participants in these experiments are asked the direct question of whether they think plain packaging will lower the smoking rate, the majority say no. They understand, as the campaigners apparently do not, that people do not start smoking because they are attracted by a logo. People buy cigarettes for what is in the pack, not what is on the pack. I realise that what I am about to say is almost heretical in this day and age, but here goes: some people enjoy smoking.

Bereft of empirical evidence to support plain packaging, the anti-smokers instead point out that the tobacco industry opposes it. This, they say, shows that Big Tobacco knows that plain packaging will make smoking history. Nice try, but that bird does not fly either. Plain packaging is likely to reduce the appeal of premium brands and some smokers will 'downgrade' to cheaper brands. This could certainly make the cigarette business less profitable, but only because margins are tighter on cheaper cigarettes, not because fewer people will smoke.

Even Simon Chapman, the veteran anti-smoking activist who led the plain packs campaign in Australia, admits that the prospect of the market moving away from more expensive brands "explains a lot about why [cigarette companies] fear plain packaging, because they will struggle to convince smokers that it's sensible to pay more for products that actually only look better because of their box". Few of us will feel much sympathy for the cigarette companies if their profits decline, but annoying the industry is not a valid public health objective in itself and encouraging people to buy cheaper cigarettes is a perverse anti-smoking strategy.

As a last resort, the crusaders will say that we have nothing to lose by abolishing branding on cigarette packs so why not just give it a go? Leaving aside the fact that plain packaging will make life a lot easier for those who counterfeit cigarettes, the answer to that question depends on what we see as the state's proper role in a liberal democracy. Plain packaging is an affront to the free market and a gross infringement of intellectual property rights, which is why it is opposed by the United States chamber of commerce, the International Trademark Association, the European Communities Trade Mark Association, the Anti-Counterfeiting Group, and many other trade organisations.

While is clearly appropriate for cigarettes to bear a prominent health warning, for the government to confiscate the entirety of a product's packaging while effectively abolishing an industry's trademarks is beyond the pale. Companies must have the right to differentiate their products from their competitors. Business associations are rightly concerned about what will happen if this Pandora's Box is opened. In Australia, campaigners are already calling for plain packaging to be rolled out to certain foods and the British government has recently been consulting on whether the policy should be extended to alcohol. We do not have to go down this road. Laws should not be enacted on the whim of a dogmatic minority who find the sight of a packet of cigarettes or a can of beer intolerable.

By their own admission, plain packaging will do nothing to help smokers quit – which can be the only justification for the existence of a state-funded anti-smoking movement. Instead, the campaigners seem to be motivated by a profound contempt of smokers and a petty-minded desire to score points against the tobacco industry. Hooked on legislation as they are, they have scraped the very bottom of the policy barrel. They will doubtless return next year and every year with the irksome regularity of seasonal influenza, but the government should not encourage them to scrape any further.

http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/2328/anti-smoking-campaigners-hooked-on-legislation#ixzz23R3gegbT

Spot on.

rajpoot
08-14-2012, 14:37
Any smoker worth his salt uses a cigarette case anyway, and most of my friends who smoke hardly even glance at the pack while they're taking the cigarettes out....

Centurion1
08-14-2012, 14:50
Any smoker worth his salt uses a cigarette case anyway, and most of my friends who smoke hardly even glance at the pack while they're taking the cigarettes out....

Thats bull. Cigarrette packs are for children and old people. Any REAL smoker uses a pack because he is burning through so many per day. But yes nobody reads the damn package at this point we all know they are going to kill us so who gives a damn.

CountArach
08-14-2012, 15:01
No Empirical evidence? Try 24 peer reviewed studies. (http://www.cancer.org.au/Newsmedia/mediareleases/mediareleases2011/24May2011.htm)

InsaneApache
08-14-2012, 15:07
No Empirical evidence? Try 24 peer reviewed studies. (http://www.cancer.org.au/Newsmedia/mediareleases/mediareleases2011/24May2011.htm)

Ahh I see the usual rent seekers are out in force. No conflict of interest there then.

CountArach
08-14-2012, 15:09
Ahh I see the usual rent seekers are out in force. No conflict of interest there then.
Oh yes that hideous organisation the Cancer Council of Australia. It is a metastudy of the relevant studies and so the only possible 'bias' would be a selection bias which would pre-suppose studies which show the opposite effect. Provide your own evidence to contradict it or just accept that you will have to be arguing form an unsupported ideological viewpoint.

InsaneApache
08-14-2012, 15:14
When I started smoking, or should I say when I bought my first packet of fags, I didn't buy them because they had a picture of a sailor on them. I bought them because of the price. As an ex-smoker I just find the whole idea ridiculous.

It won't end here though, will it? Plain packaging on booze. Plain pakaging on beefburgers. It's on the way kiddies.

Read my quote and then tell me I'm wrong.

CountArach
08-14-2012, 15:14
Ah so annecdotal evidence it is then.

InsaneApache
08-14-2012, 15:21
So your an anti-smoker then?

Again as an ex-smoker I couldn't give a monkeys chuff what other people get up to. In fact it's none of my business if people smoke or not. It's the prod-noses who get their knickers wet by banning thing and telling other people what they can and cannot do. Just who do these people think they are?

CountArach
08-14-2012, 15:25
So your an anti-smoker then?
As a life-long asthmatic, yes. People smoking around me makes my life harder by restricting my air passages which are hardly the best in the first place. I shouldn't have to live with that.

Banning is not the answer. This is a step towards reducing smoking so that over the years society can be weened off them and there are fewer smokers.

Beskar
08-14-2012, 15:39
As a life-long asthmatic, yes. People smoking around me makes my life harder by restricting my air passages which are hardly the best in the first place. I shouldn't have to live with that.

Admittedly, that is the restricted use of cigs in public places which i agree with. however, the colour of the package wouldn't affect your asthmatic condition if they are doing it in their own home.

Though, I am not sure if InsaneApache has noticed, I believe KFC, McDonalds, Burger King and Pizza Hut already come in Brown packaging anyway. So that slippery slope is rather redundant but I agree that it is getting a bit too silly.

CountArach
08-14-2012, 15:47
Admittedly, that is the restricted use of cigs in public places which i agree with. however, the colour of the package wouldn't affect your asthmatic condition if they are doing it in their own home.
Hence why I don't support banning it. People can do what they like at home or in designated areas. But you are conflating two issues here. The colour of the packaging may well reduce the amount of smokers in the long-term and that will affect me, as well as other people who either don't take up the habit or who won't be affected by in it any secondary manner.

PanzerJaeger
08-14-2012, 16:00
The anti- smoking efforts have become truly absurd. We get the most grotesque pictures imaginable over here. If the product is so poisonous, ban it outright; but to allow it to be sold under these conditions is abusive and does indeed set up a very slippery slope.

Are violent video games going to have to be sold with pictures of Columbine victims' mangled corpses plastered all over them next? It sounds crazy, but then so did having to purchase a product with a gangrenous foot on the front.

Make sure people have accurate information to make an informed decision and then leave them the hell alone. This is overreach to the extreme.

HoreTore
08-14-2012, 16:05
I support any and all policies which may result in marketing people being laid off.

Get yourselves some real jobs, bloody hippies.

Major Robert Dump
08-14-2012, 16:25
Big tobacco makes big contributions to the careers of politicians. It will never be banned. In fact, I believe some of the old families in Washington initially built their estates in the tobacco trade. Don't see why it would be different in any other country. Your leaders wag their finger at the industry with one hand, and take money with the other.

Vladimir
08-14-2012, 16:47
Oh Dear Lord. End the hypocrisy and drama. If they're that bad, just ban them! Governments are too worried about loosing the tax revenue.

Beskar
08-14-2012, 16:56
Oh Dear Lord. End the hypocrisy and drama. If they're that bad, just ban them! Governments are too worried about loosing the tax revenue.

They tried that before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States)

Outright banning never works when it is too easy to obtain it.

Sir Moody
08-14-2012, 17:11
If they're that bad, just ban them! Governments are too worried about loosing the tax revenue.

because that has worked so well with Drugs...

banning them would just create another underground market

Vladimir
08-14-2012, 17:19
They tried that before. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States)

Outright banning never works when it is too easy to obtain it.

Faulty comparison to a poorly written amendment.


because that has worked so well with Drugs...

banning them would just create another underground market

Quickest way to eliminate contraband is to make everything legal. If it's as bad as the anti-smoking crowd is making it out to be, ban it.

InsaneApache
08-14-2012, 17:25
The problem with banning things is human nature. It's as though we are hard wired to like drugs. So in order for the bansturbators to succeed, then they would have to lobotomize the population. Who's up first?

Productivity
08-14-2012, 17:29
I wonder why the tobacco companies are so adamantly opposed to this legislation if packaging (as InsaneApache's anecdotal evidence so clearly demonstrates) is not the driver for buying cigarettes.

Personally I don't have any issue with your own right to kill yourself through cigarettes. I object when you end up with lung cancer on public health money and I object when your use of cigarettes impinges upon other people. I also think that cigarette companies are being deliberately predatory with how they market in order to get the young into their addictive product - when faced with a true view of the costs/benefits of cigarettes, hardly anybody would choose to take up the habit. Tobacco companies have no interest in doing that, so government legislation in order to fix the biased presentation of material is not a problem in my view.

Montmorency
08-14-2012, 17:44
Faulty comparison to a poorly written amendment.

You see Prohibition as fundamentally workable, but improperly legislated in practice?

Explain a bit.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-14-2012, 23:40
Plain packs are easier to fake - so this policy will benefit counterfeiters.

So, it's a bad idea.

I think we have the right balance with smoking in the UK now - taking up smoking has been made unpleasant, and pubs have been made more pleasant overall.

I'm old enough to remember having to ask myself if my clothes were old enough to go in the wash before going and and on occasion sticking my head under the shower when I got back to get rid of the smell.

I am immensely glad I don't have to do that anymore.

Papewaio
08-15-2012, 03:56
Plain packaging just got the nod from the High Court in Australia today.

I might feel sympathy for a company if:
They had no idea it caused cancer
Had no idea it was addictive
Did not increase the addictiveness of their product
Hid that data from their consumers and governments
Did not creat ad copy aimed at children ie cartoon animals
Did not have programs that were aimed at getting kids hooked
Did not still proclaim health benefits of smoking to third world people... Last time I was in Indonesia they had adverts stating tha smoking made you stronger and fitter.

Visor
08-15-2012, 04:04
Plain packaging just got the nod from the High Court in Australia today.

I might feel sympathy for a company if:
They had no idea it caused cancer
Had no idea it was addictive
Did not increase the addictiveness of their product
Hid that data from their consumers and governments
Did not creat ad copy aimed at children ie cartoon animals
Did not have programs that were aimed at getting kids hooked
Did not still proclaim health benefits of smoking to third world people... Last time I was in Indonesia they had adverts stating tha smoking made you stronger and fitter.

You're kidding me. They actually said yes to it?

Speaking from a purely retail/small business perspective, it is utterly moronic and stupid. You already have to keep them out of sight, what the :daisy: is plain packaging going to do? It's a completely retarded proposal and will do nothing to stop cigarettes from being smoked.

Absolutely moronic and if anything gives the smaller businesses a harder time.

Papewaio
08-15-2012, 04:13
Apparently the Consitution allows the government to put more value on human life then profits.

If a person isn't spending money on cigarettes they might be spending that money on something else. So it's not like a corner shop only sells cigarettes. Sure the tobacco places might have a hard time. I'm about as merciful for them as they are for the long term health of their customers.

Visor
08-15-2012, 04:26
Apparently the Consitution allows the government to put more value on human life then profits.

If a person isn't spending money on cigarettes they might be spending that money on something else. So it's not like a corner shop only sells cigarettes. Sure the tobacco places might have a hard time. I'm about as merciful for them as they are for the long term health of their customers.
How is Plain Packaging supposed to discourage smoking again?

Personally I would be okay with smoking being illegal or legal, it doesn't worry me, I just don't see the point of plain packaging when they already need to be covered up, if they're legal.

PanzerJaeger
08-15-2012, 04:29
I wonder why the tobacco companies are so adamantly opposed to this legislation if packaging (as InsaneApache's anecdotal evidence so clearly demonstrates) is not the driver for buying cigarettes.

I would think any industry would be adamantly opposed to such invasive legislation whether packaging is a driver of sales or not, especially if said legislation involved slapping obscenely disgusting pictures on the product. :laugh4:



Personally I don't have any issue with your own right to kill yourself through cigarettes. I object when you end up with lung cancer on public health money and I object when your use of cigarettes impinges upon other people. I also think that cigarette companies are being deliberately predatory with how they market in order to get the young into their addictive product - when faced with a true view of the costs/benefits of cigarettes, hardly anybody would choose to take up the habit. Tobacco companies have no interest in doing that, so government legislation in order to fix the biased presentation of material is not a problem in my view.

Would you extend that to alcohol makers? What about restaurants? Most companies could be defined as predatory in their marketing, as they all target the young. And really, negative tangential side effects associated with the overuse of nearly any product can be found.

I envision a future where we will all have to drive around with pictures of dead Iraqi babies plastered all over our cars.

a completely inoffensive name
08-15-2012, 05:12
Alcohol containers are really beautiful and elegant (the nice ones anyway). I will riot in the streets over plain packaging even though I don't drink the stuff.

rory_20_uk
08-15-2012, 08:45
No point leaning on one and providing no other alternatives:

Cut tax radically on chewing tobacco, snuff and snus.
Legalise cannabis if ingested; hell, make extacy, amphetamines and muchrooms legal. Have the same principle as "drink driving" where things caused on the substance are more heavily penalised.
Then clamp down on smoking.

I don't give a damn if you mainline heroin in your own home and die. I don't care if you do lines of coke and have a heart attack and die. Yill yourself, by all means. The UK has too many people, not too few. The great unwashed needs culling, not saving.

Smoking affects others and this I do care as this could be me and mine. It is not the only form of air pollution I agree but that doesn't mean we should do nothing.

Find me research that hasn't been funded by an interested party. Not impossible, but probably less than 10% of the market. That doesn't make it wrong though.

~:smoking:

naut
08-15-2012, 13:40
The new olive coloured packs will be an interesting experiment here. I'm lucky enough to be one of the few who never got addicted despite the occasional smoke here and there in my teens. Seeing the money some of my friends are wasting and the coughing agony of one of my old co-workers makes me hope that it works in reducing the amount new smokers.


I support any and all policies which may result in marketing people being laid off.

Get yourselves some real jobs, bloody hippies.
As a marketer I approve this message.

HoreTore
08-15-2012, 20:46
You're kidding me. They actually said yes to it?

Speaking from a purely retail/small business perspective, it is utterly moronic and stupid. You already have to keep them out of sight, what the :daisy: is plain packaging going to do? It's a completely retarded proposal and will do nothing to stop cigarettes from being smoked.

Absolutely moronic and if anything gives the smaller businesses a harder time.

I see a major contradiction in this text. Plain packaging can't both hurt sales and have no effect on the number of sigarettes smoked.

If it hurts sales, then it's effective in reducing smoking.
If it doesn't reduce smoking, it won't hurt sales.

Sane arguments only, please.

And if your small shop is struggling, then it should close down. Apperantly, the consuming public doesn't want your small shop and so it should go bankrupt. In fact, if it doesn't, you're living in Communist Russia. You communist.

Strike For The South
08-17-2012, 01:28
This just means i have another hand free for alcohol

InsaneApache
08-22-2012, 16:52
I see that the looneys in Tasmania are going to ban tobacco. Did they learn nothing from the prohibition era. It will end in tears.

Lemur
08-22-2012, 16:56
A ban means big profits for smugglers entrepreneurs. Let's pool some Org member money and buy a boat! There's gold in them there ciggies!