Not \'Korean\' but Chinese!

[Roman Totale XVII]

See the discussion started by 'The Wargamer' on the 'Strategic' and 'War-Historical' news-groups. The troops described as 'Korean' in the expansion are actually Chinese peoples conquered by the Mongols rather than Korean. The Koreans retained a large degree of independence and mostly just supplied the naval transports for the invasions.

The 'wargamer' guy seems pretty ticked off at the depiction of so-called Koreans in the expansion (he's probably Korean himself).

[This message has been edited by Roman Totale XVII (edited 05-13-2001).]

[solypsist]

WTF would u know about who's chinese and who isnt? youre a bloody roman!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Alastair]

LOL!

[Kelvar_Mongol]

Actually, Both Chinese and Korean Contigent were present.
Actually the Mongols would want to take more Chinese Components to Japan, because
1) Many Chinese formations have served under Ghingis Khan, and are battle hardened.
2) Chinese had the best seige Engineering and Missile troops anywhere else.
Execellent for taking out soft Japanese Castles and Slaughter Samuris with their Mechanized Crossbows.

[Koga No Goshi]

Quote Originally posted by Kelvar_Mongol:
Actually, Both Chinese and Korean Contigent were present.
Actually the Mongols would want to take more Chinese Components to Japan, because
1) Many Chinese formations have served under Ghingis Khan, and are battle hardened.
2) Chinese had the best seige Engineering and Missile troops anywhere else.
Execellent for taking out soft Japanese Castles and Slaughter Samuris with their Mechanized Crossbows.[/QUOTE]

I take issue with this. The Japanese were fiercely devoted to their country and way of life, and have always ferociously defied the idea of foreign invasion. I think regardless of technology the Mongols could not have taken and held Japan using halfhearted conscript armies from conquered nations who owed little loyalty to the Mongols and were working only for money.



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Goshi of Koga

[Vanya]

LOL If the foreign conscripted army (ie, Koreans) die, then how can they collect their monies due? That is why they send in the *fodder* first!

As ole Longshanks said in "Braveheart":
"Arrows cost money. Send in the Irish. Their deaths cost us nothing."

As Magy will undoubtedly say one day:
"Arrows cost koku. Send in the Koreans. Their deaths cost us nothing."

To which he will later add:
[Magy]: "Archers!"
[Adviser]: "But, sir! We will hit our own men!"
[Magy]: "Yes... but we will also hit theirs...!"


http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[evilc]

dont worry about unit nationalities, after all, its only a game...

[Alastair]

Somewhat OT, but not really: Were there any defections in battle, as depicted in Braveheart with the Irish?

[Anssi Hakkinen]

In Japan? Definitely. It was all politics though, and the defection of individual men was rare (ashigaru usually deserted instead, and samurai were above such pettiness). But it was not uncommon at all for a daimyô or general to change his allegiance in the middle of a battle, and their troops usually followed. In fact, a defection like this is thought to have resolved the Final Battle For The Mastery Of All Japan™, the Battle of Sekigahara in 1600.

(This kind of thing belongs in the History Forum, though.)

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"Bushidô: Bu - war; Shi - nobility; Dô - the Way."

[Toranaga sama]

I must say, the movie quotes here are very amusing

[Vanya]

If this is you, it may be unwise to lead an army into battle...

[Father Looks over to his wife, and points to his son.]
[Father]: "Look at his head! Its HUGE!"
[Son looks down, and moves his massive craneum]
[Father]: "It looks like he has Sputnik on his shoulders!"

[S.O.L]

Hello there peeps……. here is just a little historical info on the Mongol invasion of Japan .

Firstly the Mongols invaded twice not once, the first time was a force of 40,000 a recon in force, the usual Mongol tactics was before they would lay siege to a country they would send in a recon troop of their elite troops to cause as much damage and chaos as possible. this was so when they returned in force the locals would know that death was the only alternative to subjugation.

So when the recon force first arrived in Japan the Japanese where in no way ready for them the Japanese style of warfare was on a personal basis i.e. equal rankers would fight each other more like a gladiator contest than a war. The samurai ran to the beaches to meet the invader, but to their folly they rushed in thinking the Mongols played by their rules which they did not. The Mongol sea invasion tactics used flat bottom boats as artillery platforms for archers & siege weapons this way they could get close into the shore and give a covering fire to the troops on the shore.

Needless to say the Japanese suffered total defeat, the Mongols had destroyed everything that was flung at them, The moral of the country and the honour not just an army fearing the collapse of their beloved country many Japanese clans prepared for a battle for Japan but just as quick as they had came the Mongols left in the night, leaving behind a wounded but enraged Japan ……… this was a mistake the Mongols would live to regret at a high cost.

The Japanese now did a thing which no other nation had done when faced with the Mongols, the adapted and learned by their defeat they built archer armies developed new armour techniques as well as refining their sword making .they built coastal defence to combat any attack from the sea, they trained the first knowen special forces units. Troops of elite samurai no more than 7 strong would be trained to fight from behind the enemy attacking and ambushing ( A favoured Mongol tactic). Japan in a few years had been transformed from a sleeping rabble of clans into a nation united in a lust for vengeance against the Mongol Horde who had sullied Japans name.

Now when the Mongols returned with over 400,000 troops they expected a quick victory , they're thinking was that 40,000 had crushed the Japanese before so this would be a formality they even left the invasion late in the season they knew the typhoon season was 2 months odd away but they thought they would be half across Japan by then . how wrong this would turn out to be .

Final the invasion force landed about 20,000 landed ahead of the invasion force the Japanese craftily let this landing happen unhindered, they also evacuated several towns and villages near by giving the impression of panic , word got back to the khan of this and he ordered the an invasion of the island as his ship approached the harbours all was quiet to the last minute just as the Army of the khan rushed up an empty beach thinking the battle was already won , the Japanese let loose with a barrage of arrow and fire and rock .

Then the samurai ran down the beach to slaughter all they met not bothering to seek a equal ranked opponent. the Mongol fleet limped out of the harbour under the attack from the shore weapons and archer regiments of the Japanese leaving the troopS on the beach to fend for themselves , and the Mongol sword was no match for Japanese Katana , it was one way…. the Mongols sword was crude and designed to be used from horse back they where not design like the katana to be used in defence and attack the Japanese samurai could slice through sword armour flesh and bone all in the one swing.
After a few attacks the Mongols where bloody and battered and nearly 100,000 had been killed and they knew the typhoon season was close by, but the Mongols although pushed out of the range of defending invasion troops, they where still sheltered in the large harbour and costal inlets close by the Japanese knew only total victory here would stop the Mongols returning.

This was what the units of elite samurai had been trained for , each night hundreds of small boats would set sail under cover of darkness for the Mongol Fleet these groups of no more than 7 strong in each boat would sneak up and cut the anchor ropes and boards the ship now most of the Mongol army left was archers as the better part of the heavy troops had already been killed on the beaches …..Again it was a slaughter the Mongols dyed in their hundreds one samurai was said to have killed over 350 Mongols in 1 night , the Mongols weakness was close combat and this was the first time it was exposed to the world the Mongols could be beat. A now worried khan ordered the ships further out sea to avoid these night time attacks and gambled the typhoon wind’s would blow in his favour.

Well they where not and the kamikaze(divine wind) a event which annually occurs came and destroyed most of what remained of the Mongol fleet.

Another question is why the Mongols did not return to avenge this defeat………….the reason was they could blame this on the evil winds that destroyed their ship and not a superb tactical victory by Japan showing the Mongols could be beat and their large weakness in hand to hand warfare. It was thought that a second defeat at the hands of Japan would be a dangerous event for the empire and maybe signal unrest and revolts by certain nations in the empire.

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He Who Pays The Bills- The Gaming Union (http://www.tgu.org.uk/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi)

[This message has been edited by S.O.L (edited 07-10-2001).]

[Alastair]

Quote
Final the invasion force landed about 20,000 landed ahead of the invasion force
[/QUOTE]

Whaaa...

[Whitey]

40,000 men in a 'recon patrol'!

20,000 men in an advance guard!

400,000 men in the main body!


I think its time to negotiate http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Brown Wolf]

Ok, Ok.
Who deleted my reply?

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif

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The White Wolf clan will conqouer all of Japan!


White Wolf Clan (http://www.geocities.com/iron_wolf81/whitewolf.html).html[/url]

[Toranaga sama]

good thing those wily japs learned a thing or two while they were away

[Koga No Goshi]

I liked the part in the book Shogun by James Clavell when Toranaga and Mariko are talking to Anjin-san about the Mongol Invasions and the numbers of troops and ships involved and Anjin-san's shock. Being an Englishman, he commented that it made the Spanish Armada seem insignificant in comparison.



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Koga no Goshi

"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Did someone delete something? I don't recall doing that.

Oh, and on the "topic" itself, numbers may favor the vile invader, but that won't do them any good if they can't get the troops ashore quickly enough - and in boats, they're just a lot of targets. QED. And remember Japan's population is by no means insignificant, either.

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"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion."
- Joseph Goebbels

[Brown Wolf]

Quote Originally posted by Anssi Hakkinen:
Did someone delete something? I don't recall doing that.

Oh, and on the "topic" itself, numbers may favor the vile invader, but that won't do them any good if they can't get the troops ashore quickly enough - and in boats, they're just a lot of targets. QED. And remember Japan's population is by no means insignificant, either.

[/QUOTE]

I am pretty sure it was in this topic that soly and I had a little disagreement and now it seems that everything we had said is gone. I don't know what happend.

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The White Wolf clan will conqouer all of Japan!


White Wolf Clan (http://www.geocities.com/iron_wolf81/whitewolf.html).html[/url]

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

thats a lot of men! jejejeje



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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif