Trying to explain the level of feminist idiocy that control Sweden... [Archive]

Kadagar_AV

09-05-2012, 15:44

A short petite woman working as prison guard got attacked by one of the inmates, a big burly man sent to prison for violence. The person in the control room, another female prison guard, broke protocol and ran down with her baton drawn. The inmate grabbed the baton and went on to kill the first female guard.

That is the short version of what happened.

Now, some days ago, a Swedish actor while interviewed blamed the death on this woman on the modern Swedish feminism. The combined Swedish press of course jumped on this actor, competing in how best to ridicule him. All the while politicians and people famous on Twitter or whatever struggled frantically in how to best distance themselves from this Rogue.

Let us put aside what this say about the debate climate and rampant political dualism in Sweden, and focus on the matter at hand.

I also blame feminism!

My point is absolutely, ABSOLUTELY not that a woman should not work in a prison. Had it been a buff Ogre woman who got killed I wouldn't have cared as much or blamed it on feminism. But it was not a buff Ogre woman, it was a petite young girl.

From my perspective, men very simply have something women does NOT seem to have. The very simple but effective male code, played out over a mans entire upbringing each and every time he interacts with another man.

A guy who was 1,60 tall and weighted in at 45 or so kilos, would simply never come up with the idea to work with violent criminals. When he was 7 he would have noted that other men were better at football, and to fit into the team he will start taking a supportive role on the field, passing the ball to someone physically better than going for making the goal himself.

Growing up, he will be gently led by society in a way that is so natural after eons of male interactions that we no longer think of it.

"Maybe Tribal tattoo's isnt your style?"
"Let me help You carry that one!"
"You are so smart, You should work with numbers!"

This guy would have been mildly but clearly led away from a career working with violent male criminals.

Again, I have absolutely nothing against women working in prisons, but before the women do, they need to sort out their damn intra-female-guidance system!!

Because, if a petite girl goes through her upbringing getting patted in the back for ideas leading up to her being broken, mangled and very much dead on a prison floor while a big psychotic man is standing over her with a baton that the other female prison guard provided, something has gone wrong.

But here is the annoying bit, to talk about this is 100% absolutely impossible in the political climate we have over here. You will come off as a pariah, while I after having spent some short years abroad found that enough to notice that it is Sweden who is a political pariah on the international political stage.

So I agree with this Swedish actor, and I see this woman as a casualty for modern Swedish feminism.

And I again stress that my main gripe isn't that something crazy like this happened, my main gripe is that something crazy like this happens and everyone is supposed to look the other way like nothing is wrong. I just find it so hard with this elephant in the room...

Fragony

09-05-2012, 16:04

Pretty idiotic. Sweden is pretty good example of taking it too far, I am a sucker for women's rights but they are never furiously demanding equal rights for carrying bricks or swiping the streets. That actor is a boss.

Sir Moody

09-05-2012, 16:11

I am struggling to see what Feminism has to do with this case?

Was there a major Feminist movement for allowing Female Prison Officers?

or is it just that it involves Women working where you don't think they should (despite repeatable claiming you had no problem with it)?

frankly this case speaks more to a failing in the Prison system in general - why was a dangerous prisoner only escorted by one Guard (I have a friend who works in a Prison over here and with Violent prisoners Guards always work in pairs) - while the results may not have been quite so serious with a Male guard, all it takes is one good knock and the guard is helpless

additionally can you provide a link to the article - all the articles i can find say she was beaten with her OWN baton and don't mention a second guard at all

Beskar

09-05-2012, 16:13

tl;dr version.
A man beats woman with baton, it is the fault of feminism in Sweden.

There is a disconnect going on here..

Kadagar_AV

09-05-2012, 16:20

I'm not sure it's official that the other female guard broke protocol, I know some people working there and got the information from them..

My gripe is that there is a major feministic movement completely ignoring any and all differences between the sexes, and who go to great extremes to mock and ridicule anyone opposing this.

Again, my problem isn't that a woman worked there... Had the first prison guard been a big burly woman who could defend herself somewhat, and the one supposed to protect her a big woman with a baton that knew how to use it, I would see absolutely no problems with it.

But this wasn't the case.

EDIT: found it (http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article13873746.ab)

Fragony

09-05-2012, 16:21

tl;dr version.
A man beats woman with baton, it is the fault of feminism in Sweden.

There is a disconnect going on here..

There are some gender roles that Sweden just won't accept. Men are stronger than women, but good luck saying that in Sweden they will claw out our eyeballs.

Kadagar_AV

09-05-2012, 16:25

There are some gender roles that Sweden just won't accept. Men are stronger than women, but good luck saying that in Sweden they will claw out our eyeballs.

I've been starred at like I came from Mars for daring to mention that the male National team in hockey might be better than the female National team.

Strike For The South

09-05-2012, 16:26

Can the man use this as a valid defense?

What if he had beaten to death a really weak man? Would it be the patriarchies fault for forcing that boy into a physical, dangerous profession?

Kadagar_AV

09-05-2012, 16:28

Can the man use this as a valid defense?

He's pretty psychotic... He politly apoligized to the corpse just after... I think he's a "keeper" for our justice system, so to say.

EDIT: As to your edit, as is the case that wasn't the case. So kind of a moot point.

Fragony

09-05-2012, 16:36

I've been starred at like I came from Mars for daring to mention that the male National team in hockey might be better than the female National team.

They are going to hate this, our hockey team was the most attractive. And won gold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAsjZwtU8b8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Fisherking

09-05-2012, 16:38

I would be more inclined to say that it is the feminization of Swedish Government than feminism that is to blame.

I saw an article on the subject. Obviously their regulations did not permit a proper response to the attack.

All those feel good regulations got a woman killed. When a man showed up the guy went to his knees before anyone got close to him. If the first responder had clotted him upside the head the girl might still be alive.

http://www.danielhammarberg.com/2011/10/new-details-emerge-in-killed-corrections-officer-case-40-blows-landed/

Strike For The South

09-05-2012, 16:39

He's pretty psychotic... He politly apoligized to the corpse just after... I think he's a "keeper" for our justice system, so to say.

EDIT: As to your edit, as is the case that wasn't the case. So kind of a moot point.

At my heaviest I could have thrown a 150 pound man around as easily as a 115 pound woman. Your main line of argument seems to be that feminism emboldened her to the point, where she thought she could do a mans job. You then claim that her murder is the at least partially to blame on this mentality.

You contradict yourself when you say that a heavier woman would have been more suitable, this, already is a merit based system.

You seem to take more of an issue with the fact that she was so small, rather than her just being a woman.

Sarmatian

09-05-2012, 16:40

Logic that it would have been far less likely to happen had that big, burly inmate been facing an equally big and burly prison guard is not unsound.

The next logical step would be to ask why a petite woman was allowed to work in place where a big, burly man was required.

If by simply asking you end up being ridiculed "just because women should have equal job opportunities as men", than it is a feminist issue.

Some things just can't be genderless. No one wants to hire me to work in a mini skirt on an auto show. It's just how things work.

Kadagar_AV

09-05-2012, 16:44

They are going to hate this, our hockey team was the most attractive. And won gold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAsjZwtU8b8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Ah, sorry... I meant icehockey... Few countries care about land hockey, but kudos for the hot team!!

*I just got this pleasant image of The Swedish male vs female National team on the National rink, stadium filled with feminists watching women getting tackled left to right, shooting through the plexi-glass full speed taking out the top tiers of the Feminist Party...*

I know the female team met a junior club from one of the Stockholm suburbs, and lost 16-0. And the kids had to be told off for not tackling them to hard, as they risked injuries the damsels.

Funny enough, that was the first and last time the female national team did one of these training matches... Hadn't been as good for team morale as they had expected.

Just a side note, and yes I am venting.

Greyblades

09-05-2012, 16:45

Personally I'm surprised that anyone who isnt bult like an ox or given military training is either willing to be/allowed into such a perilous job. Also shouldnt they have had tazers or something a bit more apropriate to take crazed murderers than a baton?

rvg

09-05-2012, 16:49

Well, it sounds like good old Darwin is handling the problem just fine.

Strike For The South

09-05-2012, 16:51

Well, it sounds like good old Darwin is handling the problem just fine.

What the hell does this even mean?

New Rule: I am the only one who can post something under 20 words, the rest of you are terrible at humor

Vuk

09-05-2012, 19:19

At my heaviest I could have thrown a 150 pound man around as easily as a 115 pound woman. Your main line of argument seems to be that feminism emboldened her to the point, where she thought she could do a mans job. You then claim that her murder is the at least partially to blame on this mentality.

You contradict yourself when you say that a heavier woman would have been more suitable, this, already is a merit based system.

You seem to take more of an issue with the fact that she was so small, rather than her just being a woman.

People should be able to get the job based on merit. Of course feminists argue that it is unfair that these jobs are held mostly by men, who are generally much bigger and stronger. They say that women on average are just as capable as men for these jobs, and should have equal representation in traditionally male dominated jobs that rely on strength and generally have some amount of danger involved. They are therefore saying that you physical abilities should not be taken into account. If you do take it into account and hire based on merit, those jobs will continue to be held by men.

Also, there is more than just size to be taken into account. When I studied martial arts, every single woman I sparred with was much more timid than the men. We had a woman there who was built like an ox and nearly 6 feet tall. She was bigger and stockier than the average guy. I sparred guys there much smaller than her and far more her junior in TKD, and they could take my hard kicks through their armour. When I sparred her once, she had to stop after 5 punches to the floating ribs, as he abs were spasming and she could not breathe.

Even the stockier women who are into martial arts have (in my experience) been more timid, and not able to handle nearly the same amount of abuse that much smaller and less skilled men were able to.

When discussing women serving in the military it is frequently brought up that a woman can easily use a gun. Maybe that is so, but it doesn't apply here. When things get hairy, they get physical and close. I don't think I would ever hire a woman for a job like that, even if she was large and had martial arts or military experience. I wouldn't do it because I don't think it is proper, but for the same reason I would not hire a particularly small man, a man with a physical disability, or an unskilled man: because I don't want them to die. (or other people to die because they cannot do their job)
You may think that is sexist of me, but I don't care. If I was an employer, I wouldn't want to get people killed so I wouldn't be called a sexist.

rvg

09-05-2012, 19:34

... I don't think I would ever hire a woman for a job like that, even if she was large and had martial arts or military experience. I wouldn't do it because I don't think it is proper, but for the same reason I would not hire a particularly small man, a man with a physical disability, or an unskilled man: because I don't want them to die. (or other people to die because they cannot do their job).

Yep, that's it. They can pass all the laws they want, but those laws won't change reality. People used to understand that.

Reality has been pretty simple: a big psychotic man can snap a petite lil lady like a twig. No law is going to change that reality. The very fact that that girl chose to ignore reality so that she can take advantage of the law doesn't paint her as the sharpest tool in the shed. Sadly, but unsurprisingly she was removed from the gene pool. Darwin wins again.

Vuk

09-05-2012, 20:03

Yep, that's it. They can pass all the laws they want, but those laws won't change reality. People used to understand that.

Reality has been pretty simple: a big psychotic man can snap a petite lil lady like a twig. No law is going to change that reality. The very fact that that girl chose to ignore reality so that she can take advantage of the law doesn't paint her as the sharpest tool in the shed. Sadly, but unsurprisingly she was removed from the gene pool. Darwin wins again.

That is a dark and pretty sick way to look at it. It is not her fault if she was brainwashed by a faulty education system and media. That is their fault.

rvg

09-05-2012, 20:12

That is a dark and pretty sick way to look at it. It is not her fault if she was brainwashed by a faulty education system and media. That is their fault.
Life oftentimes is "dark and pretty sick." As for whose fault it is, both are at fault. The society for creating a stupid law and the girl for using the law instead of using her head.

Sir Moody

09-05-2012, 21:00

Kadagar_AV

09-05-2012, 21:15

seriously you guys are all totally nuts...

you doing exactly what Horetore did in the Anti-Semitism thread! jumping at the first chance to get at what you hate (in his case the right wing)

there is no freaking link to Feminism in this, hell the OP actually agreed that some women are suited for Prison work - which is the feminist stance ironically - Feminists are not about replacing men in the work force just for the hell of it - Feminism is about giving Women the CHANCE to compete in the work force on merit rather than excluding them purely because they aren't men -

what you all should be raging about is Prison policy - a policy that allowed a prisoner (who clearly was deranged) to be alone with ANY guard - Male or Female

as I said before (and was totally ignored) you just don't do that - all it takes is one surprise knock to the head and ANYONE is in danger

seriously get off your high horses...

I think my gripe isn't as much what happened, but rather the abuse someone got who argued that this was wrong and should not have happened. Had the media had some sort of balanced, letting different opinions be heard, I would have no issue with it.

However, two issues are in Sweden completely impossible to talk about: Feminism and immigration.

If you say ANYTHING that resembles criticism towards women s ability in any field, what so ever, you are Satan and must repent and die. If you say ANYTHING that resembles criticism towards immigration, the same.

I just lack a debate.

We are probably the WORLDS most feminist country, would it not be worth discussing the pro's and con's of it?
We accept more immigrants than any other European country (per capita), should we not discuss the pro's and con's of that either?

These questions are pillars in Sweden's political life, kind of like Gunbortion is in the states. The difference is that we by and large have pretty much every party on one side in the debate, and a wall of hurt hitting you from media on the other side of the debate.

Not very constructive.

Vuk

09-05-2012, 22:08

seriously you guys are all totally nuts...

you doing exactly what Horetore did in the Anti-Semitism thread! jumping at the first chance to get at what you hate (in his case the right wing)

there is no freaking link to Feminism in this, hell the OP actually agreed that some women are suited for Prison work - which is the feminist stance ironically - Feminists are not about replacing men in the work force just for the hell of it - Feminism is about giving Women the CHANCE to compete in the work force on merit rather than excluding them purely because they aren't men -

what you all should be raging about is Prison policy - a policy that allowed a prisoner (who clearly was deranged) to be alone with ANY guard - Male or Female

as I said before (and was totally ignored) you just don't do that - all it takes is one surprise knock to the head and ANYONE is in danger

seriously get off your high horses...

No, I am not nuts. Women should not be doing work like that in a prison that has male prisoners. I don't think women should be allowed in that type of work, not because they are not men, but because they are not nearly as well suited to it. I doubt that even a very tough, skilled woman would be as good as the average guy who gets hired there. So based on the merit of their body-types, I think they should not do work like that. Not because they should be punished, but because hiring for jobs like that have to based on a candidates performance potential. Yeah, a guy could be taken by surprise as well, but he would have a heck of a better chance staying alive.

Montmorency

09-05-2012, 22:13

Had it been a buff Ogre woman who got killed I wouldn't have cared as much or blamed it on feminism. But it was not a buff Ogre woman, it was a petite young girl.

Hehe, this could be interpreted in a way you perhaps didn't intend. Or did you? :eyebrows:

They are therefore saying that you physical abilities should not be taken into account.

Sounds like they're saying bulky women should be encouraged to apply for prison security posts. :smile:

Kadagar_AV

09-05-2012, 22:19

Hehe, this could be interpreted in a way you perhaps didn't intend. Or did you? :eyebrows:

Sounds like they're saying bulky women should be encouraged to apply for prison security posts. :smile:

LOL Monty, I didn't see it at first... But yeah, could def be interpreted in a way I didn't intend.

I do NOT think women should never ever by any chance work with male violent prisoners. I met a Captain in the Swedish Armed Forces, female, who could easily kick my behind. She had a good few inches and pounds on me as well. I would feel more than safe letting her handle violent male criminals, well, not more than safe, but as safe as if it was a man.

But again, the girl who died was... MINUSCULE. And it's only a society hell bent on putting women's liberation before what is sane who allowed it.

rory_20_uk

09-06-2012, 10:22

That women went for the job. She knew the risks. She died. End of story. Soldiers are dying in Afghanistan all the time. Some jobs have the risk of violent death.

Perhaps some systems need to relf-regulate: when all the petite women in these jobs have either died or left due to the risk of death then death rates will decrease. I see no need to regulate things. Feminism should be about equal opportunities, not outcomes.

~:smoking:

Kralizec

09-06-2012, 10:34

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 13:17

Blaming this on feminism is quite a long-shot. The cause for the incident was lacking routines. Noone, regardless of sex or physical strength should have been left alone with such a dangerous prisoner. To say that a strong man would have had a better chance of survival in that situation is not a good argument, because such a situation should never have been allowed to occur in the first place.

Andres

09-06-2012, 13:26

Allthough I don't necessarily agree with Kadagar's opinion, I understand his frustration that simply having a viewpoint that is not "the accepted viewpoint" creates an entire mediastorm. Kudos to that actor for voicing his opinion regardless of him knowing what reaction he would get. If more people did this, then eventually, it will be possible to have the normal debate Kadagar is craving for in Sweden.

That said, the woman did the job she wanted to do. I'm sure she knew and accepted the risks.

Before jumping to conclusions that her gender and stature played a role:

1) Are there numbers on this, statistics? How many prison guards were killed or seriously injured by convicts during their job in the last 10 to 15 years; how many of them were male and how many female? It's impossible to draw conclusions out of this one incident simply because the victim was a small woman.
2) If somebody is to blame, then I think it's whoever invented the prison policy. One guard for such dangerous a convict, and he wasn't even handcuffed?

From the article Fisherking linked to:

The man asks to get to go for a smoke. He’s allowed to enter the elevator alone and head up there, with Karen arriving moments later.
In the immediate area, another female guard is also present, though whether she’s present when the man walks outside or not is unclear.
Now he’s alone with Karen, with her unarmed. She turns to unlock the door, and then he attacks from behind, hitting her repeatedly as she falls to the ground.
The other female guard catches notice of what’s going on; she grabs her nightstick and runs there to intervene. Due to prison regulations, guards aren’t allowed to strike at an inmate’s head with the nightstick, however, hence she hits him on the arm instead.
Erik appears unfazed by this strike and instead snatches the nightstick from her and uses it to keep beating on Karen. Before it’s over, he’s hit her with over 40+ blows, and she’s only got 15 minutes left of her life.
After a couple of minutes, male officers appear, with him getting on his knees to willingly surrender before they even reach him. Later medical examination showed that he appeared to have broken his right hand in the process of beating up Karen.

Unarmed? And the other guard not allowed to hit him on the head? I think most men would have gotten a good beating as well, in this particular incident. What kind of an idiot lets his personnel alone and unarmed with a dangerous, psychotic convict? I'm pretty sure the same could've happened to a male guard; after all, he attacked her from behind when she turned around.

Also from FisherKings' article:

To an American audience, it might appear somewhat strange for a skinny university graduate to start work at a jail, but the penal philosophy in Sweden is based on communication and understanding. It’s believed that by maintaining a dialogue with the clientele behind bars, one can avoid violent confrontations.

That's all nice and well, but can't you at least be prepared in case it doesn't work out as intended? Isn't it possible to maintain a dialogue but still keep in mind the safety of the guards, like, I don't know, giving them a taser, or write in your regulations that for the dangerous types, like this fellow, you always need two or three guards to accompany them?

Kralizec

09-06-2012, 13:33

The cause for the incident was lacking routines. Noone, regardless of sex or physical strength should have been left alone with such a dangerous prisoner. To say that a strong man would have had a better chance of survival in that situation is not a good argument, because such a situation should never have been allowed to occur in the first place.

Lack of routine was one cause. Routines are supposed to (further) minimize the risk of harm, not to make the job accessible for people of all sizes or gender. It's obvious that in cases where routine is not followed (bound to happen sooner or later in any organisation) or simply breaks down in a chaotic situation you're at a disadvantage if you're small and not physically imposing.

I can't help but wonder wether it was a case of double standards (i.e. men have to be a certain height and physical condition, women are hired regardless) or just a lack of physical standards alltogether.

Andres

09-06-2012, 13:51

If you make prison safety regulations so that only Rambo can be a prison guard (alone and unarmed in a lift with a psychotic Viking the size of a bear?), then yeah, you can't hire small women.

However, if you make decent safety regulations and give your personnel decent training and adequate equipment... :shrug:

I'm not sure if keeping the idiotic prison policy in place and blaming feminism until finally some other bear breaks the neck of an unarmed male guard who turned his back and had no colleague to watch the psycho while he had his back turned at him, is the right response to this event.

Fragony

09-06-2012, 14:25

If you make prison safety regulations so that only Rambo can be a prison guard (alone and unarmed in a lift with a psychotic Viking the size of a bear?), then yeah, you can't hire small women.

However, if you make decent safety regulations and give your personnel decent training and adequate equipment... :shrug:

I'm not sure if keeping the idiotic prison policy in place and blaming feminism until finally some other bear breaks the neck of an unarmed male guard who turned his back and had no colleague to watch the psycho while he had his back turned at him, is the right response to this event.

Even then, female security in a male prison, of course they are not safe. It's dumb

Andres

09-06-2012, 14:30

Even then, female security in a male prison, of course they are not safe. It's dumb

As if nice guys like us would be safe standing unarmed and alone with our back turned to some giant, psychotic, aggressive murderer or professional brawler :rolleyes:

Kralizec

09-06-2012, 14:31

I did not say anything about Rambo types. I would not consider it unreasonable, however, to demand prison guards to be at least 1.70 tall and be in decent shape.

If I go out at night I never see many female bouncers. And I'm fairly sure most bouncers could kick my ass with one hand tied behind their back. I wonder why that is?

Regardless of your regulations you can't completely eliminate every hypothetical situation where a prison guard could be at risk. Or maybe we can - why don't we just put all inmates in permanent solitary confinement? If we did that it would be feasible to let quadraplegics to to be prison guards, or skinny clueless teenagers working there on summer jobs. Maybe allowing inmates to have any freedom of movement is simply an idiotic policy :idea:

Fragony

09-06-2012, 14:34

As if nice guys like us would be safe standing unarmed and alone with our back turned to some giant, psychotic, aggressive murderer or professional brawler :rolleyes:

We wouldn't be a woman in a prison full of sex starved males. It tends to get to you. Again, it's just dumb.

Kralizec

09-06-2012, 14:43

Something just struck me; if I recall correctly you have to be below 1.75 metres in hight in order to become a jet pilot for our air force. And I definitely recall that you must have near perfect eyesight, because that ruined one of my childhood fantasies when I was little (to participate in homo-erotic volleyball matches with other pilots, like in Top Gun)

What a ridiculous policy, favouring midgets like that and trampling on near-sighted and blind people. I'm sure that they reject fat people as well (racist!) Why can't they design these hideously expensive fighter jets to be more roomy, or more suitable for people with physical handicaps? We must have total equality of opportunity, there is no way a company or a government can ever have a legitimate interest screening their applicants for any physical characteristic whatsoever.

Ronin

09-06-2012, 14:59

As if nice guys like us would be safe standing unarmed and alone with our back turned to some giant, psychotic, aggressive murderer or professional brawler :rolleyes:

I won´t say I´d be safe....but I´d stand a better chance.
this isn´t sexist, it's just true.

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 15:02

Lack of routine was one cause. Routines are supposed to (further) minimize the risk of harm, not to make the job accessible for people of all sizes or gender. It's obvious that in cases where routine is not followed (bound to happen sooner or later in any organisation) or simply breaks down in a chaotic situation you're at a disadvantage if you're small and not physically imposing.

Andres sums up my point. These thing are not "bound to happen". Something like this should never be allowed to happen, and it's an outright scandal that it did. It would be unacceptable for any employee, regardless of physical strength, to be exposed to a situation like that.

The report from the following investigation said nothing about physical strength; it simply stated that this would never have occured if the most basic safety measures had been taken; namely that the personell should have been informed that the client* could be violent, and that the client should have been followed by two guards at all times. None of this had been done.

*I say client, because this was not a prison. He was taken in custody.

Fragony

09-06-2012, 15:07

I won´t say I´d be safe....but I´d stand a better chance.
this isn´t sexist, it's just true.

Yep. Men are just physically stronger, no procedure is going to change that simple fact. Maybe we would be just as screwed, but still much less likely.

Vladimir

09-06-2012, 15:25

As if nice guys like us would be safe standing unarmed and alone with our back turned to some giant, psychotic, aggressive murderer or professional brawler :rolleyes:

More so, yes. If you don't understand that than it speaks highly of you. But, remember, it's not about you. It's about the other guy.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-06-2012, 15:26

If you make prison safety regulations so that only Rambo can be a prison guard (alone and unarmed in a lift with a psychotic Viking the size of a bear?), then yeah, you can't hire small women.

This is really the correct answer to the question.

Women shouldn't work in Men's Prisons. If you can't say that in Sweden then Sweden is broken.

This isn't about the fitness of the woman for the role, though that is a consideration, this is about how men react to women.

What happens when a woman appears in the Backroom?

The younger members start to hump her leg immediately, the slightly older ones express astonishment that she is even here and the rest of us constantly seek her out as "a female voice" and we start to watch our foul innuendos, or make them funny.

Now imagine we were all stuck here 24/7, under duress, and we had all done something bad enough to merit our being incarcerated in a country like Sweden. If you try to place a petite attractive young woman in a position of authority she will instantly become a focus for a toxic mixture of lust, resentment, and frustrated male ego.

You might as well paint a target on her back saying "rape and kill me".

SoFarSoGood

09-06-2012, 15:46

Vladimir

09-06-2012, 15:50

Actually I believe that some studies show that female prison guards are better at calming a male tantrum than male guards - the prisoner often has qualms about attacking a female guard that he would not have with a burly male whom he may regard as a legitimate target for his aggression.

Many government agencies fail to use female employees effectively because they are afraid of being sued. They can't be seen as officially favoring a particular gender over another. Under the right circumstances I'm sure they're capable of calming prisoners but a skinny little girl turning her back to a big violent male is in considerable risk.

Vuk

09-06-2012, 15:55

Vuk

09-06-2012, 15:59

The fact is that no one should be doing a job like that unless they are ex-military or a well-trained professional, large enough to stand a chance against a large criminal, and well on how to handle themselves around prisoners. Sure, anyone can get killed, but a small woman straight out of college stands absolutely no chance at all. her only chance of living is that the inmates decide not to attack her. She is 100%, completely at the mercy of all or just about all inmates. It is not right to put someone in that position. And don't give me your sick Darwinian BS, because that is not only wrong to them, but it will also endanger others when they cannot do their job.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-06-2012, 16:01

Actually I believe that some studies show that female prison guards are better at calming a male tantrum than male guards - the prisoner often has qualms about attacking a female guard that he would not have with a burly male whom he may regard as a legitimate target for his aggression.

She got the short straw and I am sorry for her family and friends but doesn't say alot about feminism and the stupidity of it.

In some instances, that may be true - but it becomes less true the more violent the criminal and the longer he is locked up.

I stand by my point - female officers, especially young pretty ones, are natural targets and this is probably more true in places like Sweden where they only lock the really nasty people up.

Guarding prisoners is not nursing or social work - the first purpose of a prison is to seperate dangerous people from the rest of society.

Kralizec

09-06-2012, 16:05

Fragony

09-06-2012, 16:10

Kadagar_AV

09-06-2012, 16:24

Ah... Some sleep, and I am now back...

Andres,
Before jumping to conclusions that her gender and stature played a role:

1) Are there numbers on this, statistics? How many prison guards were killed or seriously injured by convicts during their job in the last 10 to 15 years; how many of them were male and how many female? It's impossible to draw conclusions out of this one incident simply because the victim was a small woman.

You know, that WOULD be a fair question in most situations. But give me a fighting chance here. I simply have a hard time showing comparable numbers on survival rate where male prisoners attack male guards compared to female guards. Why? Because I think only Sweden, and only in the last years, would come up with the idea in the first place. At least only Sweden would have ONLY women around in the vicinity. I'm sure you get my point.

If somebody is to blame, then I think it's whoever invented the prison policy. One guard for such dangerous a convict, and he wasn't even handcuffed?

You are right, and wrong from my perspective. I am not defending the prison policies, however, let us remember that they only serve as a first line of defense. Things ARE bound to go wrong, I am sure you agree with this. And when things go wrong, it's important that the people working there have the ability to handle that too, to maximum extent.

I think you are playing the devil's advocate here, unless you actually believe that policys is enough to lean back on for people who work with violence. Jail guards, policemen, Russian Spetznaz... Viewed in that light, you probably understand why some would see it as problematic to totally skip an internationally fairly normal assumption (that big men can defend themselves better than small women).

Of course we need to change some of the policys too, I am not saying we shouldn't... But let's appreciate both side of the problem.

HOWEVER, that is not my problem, at all.

What I care about, is that a LOT of people agree with me, and this Swedish actor. You can tell from this forum that our views are not abnormal by any means, and that it is possible to have a open discussion about this.

What concerns me, is the impossibility for this in Sweden. If you here believe what we pretty much all believe You are a social pariah, who should be attacked and ridiculed by media, celebrities and politicians....

As if nice guys like us would be safe standing unarmed and alone with our back turned to some giant, psychotic, aggressive murderer or professional brawler

First of all, few of us would be stupid enough to turn our backs to a prisoner to begin with. So the situation might not have arise at all. Secondly, the other 39 attacks would most likely to a higher degree have been avoided, or had less impact on pretty much anyone of us than on this girl I believe (I know it's true for me).

Paltmull, oh you good Swede you. Hope your GF gave you a cookie.

These thing are not "bound to happen". It would be unacceptable for any employee, regardless of physical strength, to be exposed to a situation like that.

I don't agree that these things aren't "bound to happen". But regardless, some people, like people working with psycho's, have to be trained and able to potentially deal with unacceptable situations. Same goes for a lot of jobs.

SoFarSoGood,
Actually I believe that some studies show that female prison guards are better at calming a male tantrum than male guards - the prisoner often has qualms about attacking a female guard that he would not have with a burly male whom he may regard as a legitimate target for his aggression.

Reality showed that this guy saw an ability, and attacked a woman. Her backup was another woman who got disarmed and ignored. When first male guard turns up, the guy at once goes down on his knees before the guard is even close.

Of course women can fill a role dealing with male prisoners... But it should be a much more controlled role than just "normal jail guard".

And again, the problem isn't the jailguard really... The problem for me is the wall of hurt coming after anyone who would dare say it could have been avoided, had we dared look at gender difficulties. If the person is wrong, take the debate. But as of yet I have seen no debate, just a string of increasingly influential people who compete at shooting the messenger.

Fragony

09-06-2012, 16:38

'Paltmull, oh you good Swede you. Hope your GF gave you a cookie.'

I laughed.

And yeah Sweden is taking it *ahum* somewhat too far. You Swedes are officially regarded as the most feminine country in the world by the way. Even Wodan is crying for his mother because Thor read his diary.

Sir Moody

09-06-2012, 17:01

god this thread goes from low to low...

1) If you limit the hiring to 1.7 muscular men you have already ruled out ~50% of the population (Women) and probably a large percentage of the Men (lets be generous and say 30%).

This means your potential recruitment pool is 20% of the population - sounds good yes? well no because of that 20% most are not going to want to be Prison officers and worse OTHER jobs will have similar restrictions

Basically you are limiting your recruitment massively - and this is a MAJOR problem - the only thing keeping the Prisoners in line is enough "bodies" on the line - if the Prisoner to Guard ratio gets too high then the Prisoners basically start to get more "Control"

Why is this not a problem for other jobs with restrictions? Well Fighter pilots were brought up so lets use them
a) there are Women fighter pilots (at least in most western countries) so they haven't ruled out half the population off the bat
b) they don't need all that many pilots - in the Uk - at most we need 5000 or so - in order to maintain proper Prisoner to Guard ratios we will need tens of thousands of guards
c) being a fighter pilots is a VERY attractive job - a LOT of people are going to want to do it - many more than the number required - generally we are ALWAYS short on guards

it just isn't feasible to be THAT picky with your applicants - hell some guards will never even have physical contact with a prisoner (the control officers for example)

2) if you think only Women can be raped you are really Naive - if you put a sex starved deranged Male in a position where he is alone with ANY person he will try it - you only need to look at the statistics on Prisoner on Prisoner rape...

the problem in this case is NOT that a Woman was hired for the job

the problem is a guard was put in a position no guard SHOULD be in

on a side note there is a VERY good reason for height restrictions on fighter pilots - the cockpits are very restrictive and also uniform - if you are too short you cannot fit inside the Ejector seat and see properly - there is also a MAX height - that's right you can be too TALL to be a fighter pilot (this is to do with the ejector seat and what happens when it goes off)

Fragony

09-06-2012, 17:14

It should be possible if it was a good idea, but it just isn't a good idea. You need big guys.

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 17:26

Paltmull, oh you good Swede you. Hope your GF gave you a cookie.

She did. It was a nice change from all the oppression that i have to endure here in the Saudi Arabia of feminism.

I don't agree that these things aren't "bound to happen". But regardless, some people, like people working with psycho's, have to be trained and able to potentially deal with unacceptable situations. Same goes for a lot of jobs.

The point is, that the reason that the guard got killed was not that she was a woman or that she wasn't strong enough. Noone would have survived that attack.

Vladimir

09-06-2012, 17:43

Fragony

09-06-2012, 17:50

The point is, that the reason that the guard got killed was not that she was a woman or that she wasn't strong enough. Noone would have survived that attack.

Oh, is that so. I know who would have had a better chance

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 17:51

She was attacked from behind by a :daisy: bear man. Come on! The last time i looked, men weren't any better than women at surviving excessive violence to the head.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-06-2012, 18:00

The point is, that the reason that the guard got killed was not that she was a woman or that she wasn't strong enough. Noone would have survived that attack.

Maybe that's true - but even if it is you have another question.

Why was she attacked and beaten to death?

Why did the prisoner go down like a stack of spuds at the sight of male officers?

My guess would be he had some sort of grudge against this woman - and I would hazard that gender played a role in that just as it did in his reaction to the second female guard.

Fragony

09-06-2012, 18:01

She was attacked from behind by a :daisy: bear man. Come on! The last time i looked, men weren't any better than women at surviving excessive violence to the head.

You must be insane sorry if I go too far saying so

Kadagar_AV

09-06-2012, 18:13

She was attacked from behind by a :daisy: bear man. Come on! The last time i looked, men weren't any better than women at surviving excessive violence to the head.

I think I already answered this.

A) Maybe a man, better attuned to other men's signals, and blessed with average common sense, would not have opened up for the initial attack in the same way.

B) Most men would after the initial assault be able to handle the rest of the assault better.

C) The back up was also a woman. She acted out of panic and got disarmed. The psycho then used her weapon to beat her colleague to death. Maybe a man in this situation could have averted the danger. In fact, we know he could have, as:

D) As the first male guard approached the attacker went down on his knees and gave up.

So.... What was your point again?

BTW, be aware that the rest of the males of the world, not from Sweden, might feel slightly uncomfortable accepting a pure Swedish males views in matters that handles, well, manliness.

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 18:13

Maybe that's true - but even if it is you have another question.

Why was she attacked and beaten to death?

Why did the prisoner go down like a stack of spuds at the sight of male officers?

My guess would be he had some sort of grudge against this woman - and I would hazard that gender played a role in that just as it did in his reaction to the second female guard.

The client had just recently been moved to this higher-security facility, after having attacked a male guard. I don't know any more details about that though.

Source (in Swedish): http://debatt.svt.se/2011/11/22/haktet-i-huddinge-drar-fel-slutsatser-efter-mordet-pa-karen-gebreab/

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-06-2012, 18:16

The client had just recently been moved to this higher-security facility, after having attacked a male guard. I don't know any more details about that though.

Source (in Swedish): http://debatt.svt.se/2011/11/22/haktet-i-huddinge-drar-fel-slutsatser-efter-mordet-pa-karen-gebreab/

Client?

The word is "prisoner".

Vladimir

09-06-2012, 18:19

Client?

The word is "prisoner".

It's Sweden. Now this makes her death even more senseless.

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 18:32

I think I already answered this.

A) Maybe a man, better attuned to other men's signals, and blessed with average common sense, would not have opened up for the initial attack in the same way.

B) Most men would after the initial assault be able to handle the rest of the assault better.

C) The back up was also a woman. She acted out of panic and got disarmed. The psycho then used her weapon to beat her colleague to death. Maybe a man in this situation could have averted the danger. In fact, we know he could have, as:

D) As the first male guard approached the attacker went down on his knees and gave up.

So.... What was your point again?

BTW, be aware that the rest of the males of the world, not from Sweden, might feel slightly uncomfortable accepting a pure Swedish males views in matters that handles, well, manliness.

A) That's incredibly speculative. How can you possibly know how well attuned this woman was to men's signals (whatever those are)? And I'm probably reading you wrong here, but are you saying that men have more common sense than women?

B) Most men? Really?

C) The "back-up" wasn't supposed to be back-up. She was a 60-year-old who worked in the control room.

D) As I wrote in my above post, the man had attacked a male guard shortly before, which is why he was moved to this facility in the first place. Do you have any research that shows that male prisoners tend to be more agressive towards female guards? Instinctively, I feel that it's more likely the other way around. IIRC, men that serve prison sentences for violence against women have to be kept isolated from other prisoners, so that they won't be beaten or killed. Wouldn't that mean that the likeliness of female guards being attacked should actually be smaller?

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 18:35

Client?

The word is "prisoner".

Nope! This man had not been sentenced yet. He was only held in custody. I don't know how it is in other countries, but in Sweden you aren't called "prisoner" before you're actually serving a sentence in prison.

edit: Sorry for the double post btw.
edit 2: I realise now, however that the Swedish word "klient" and the english word "client" may not have the exact same meaning. Maybe the word is "intern"? I'm not sure.
edit 3: It's "inmate"!

Fragony

09-06-2012, 18:43

Good Swede indeed

Kadagar_AV

09-06-2012, 18:52

Good Swede indeed

nah, pretty damn average TBH ;)

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 19:26

Good Swede indeed

I have to be. Those evil feminists that secretly control everything are forcing me to.

Vladimir

09-06-2012, 19:26

I have to be. Those evil feminists that secretly control everything are forcing me to.

Good man. Good man. :thumbsup:

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-06-2012, 19:37

Nope! This man had not been sentenced yet. He was only held in custody. I don't know how it is in other countries, but in Sweden you aren't called "prisoner" before you're actually serving a sentence in prison.

edit: Sorry for the double post btw.
edit 2: I realise now, however that the Swedish word "klient" and the english word "client" may not have the exact same meaning. Maybe the word is "intern"? I'm not sure.
edit 3: It's "inmate"!

In English - a prisoner is someone held against their will, an inmate would be someone serving a sentence in prison.

I.e. - I'm fairly sure he's not an "inmate" until after sentencing.

In any case, wasn't he already in gaol for another crime? So he's already a "prisoner" anyway.

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 19:46

In English - a prisoner is someone held against their will, an inmate would be someone serving a sentence in prison.

I.e. - I'm fairly sure he's not an "inmate" until after sentencing.

My bad then. I thought it was the other way around.

In any case, wasn't he already in gaol for another crime? So he's already a "prisoner" anyway.

Not that i know of, I think he was just held in custody. I could be wrong though.

Fragony

09-06-2012, 19:49

Too bad the only option we see is lobotomy

Kadagar_AV

09-06-2012, 20:00

A) That's incredibly speculative. How can you possibly know how well attuned this woman was to men's signals (whatever those are)? And I'm probably reading you wrong here, but are you saying that men have more common sense than women?

B) Most men? Really?

C) The "back-up" wasn't supposed to be back-up. She was a 60-year-old who worked in the control room.

D) As I wrote in my above post, the man had attacked a male guard shortly before, which is why he was moved to this facility in the first place. Do you have any research that shows that male prisoners tend to be more agressive towards female guards? Instinctively, I feel that it's more likely the other way around. IIRC, men that serve prison sentences for violence against women have to be kept isolated from other prisoners, so that they won't be beaten or killed. Wouldn't that mean that the likeliness of female guards being attacked should actually be smaller?

A) Yes, actually most statements beginning with "maybe" is assumptions. Men have usually grown up in an environment where he has closely observed male aggression or participated to a higher degree than woman. IE, wouldnt you agree that the average bloke has had more fist fights in his life than the average girl? I don't mean that men generally have more common sense than woman, I am meaning that men have more common sense in violent situations than women. I for one would never position myself the way she did around an intern.

B) Yes, most men REALLY would handle themselves better being assaulted. Bigger size, natural drugs kicking in giving us a better chance, more close experience with violence... Lots of factors plays in a mans favor, really.

C) So? Still doesn't change that a man would again have done a better job in that situation. Heck, had it been a 60 year old man he might have had a better understanding for his physical ability in a violent situation, and raised the alarm instead of running down handing the prisoner a weapon - the prisoner then could go on to kill with. Or maybe the male guard would have had the physical ability, and would have been able to handle it better than just basically handing over a weapon.

D) As you yourself say, this guy had attacked a MALE guard at a LOWER security place, the male guard survived. He then went on to overpower TWO women in a HIGHER security place.

Let me make it even more clear.

X jump male - male alive.
X jump female - female dead.

What was your point again?

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 21:17

A) Yes, actually most statements beginning with "maybe" is assumptions. Men have usually grown up in an environment where he has closely observed male aggression or participated to a higher degree than woman. IE, wouldnt you agree that the average bloke has had more fist fights in his life than the average girl? I don't mean that men generally have more common sense than woman, I am meaning that men have more common sense in violent situations than women. I for one would never position myself the way she did around an intern.

B) Yes, most men REALLY would handle themselves better being assaulted. Bigger size, natural drugs kicking in giving us a better chance, more close experience with violence... Lots of factors plays in a mans favor, really.

C) So? Still doesn't change that a man would again have done a better job in that situation. Heck, had it been a 60 year old man he might have had a better understanding for his physical ability in a violent situation, and raised the alarm instead of running down handing the prisoner a weapon - he then could go on to kill with. Or maybe the guard would have had the ability, and would have been able to handle it better than just basically handing over a weapon.

D) As you yourself say, this guy had attacked a MALE guard at a LOWER security place, the male guard survived. He then went on to overpower TWO women in a HIGHER security place.

Let me make it even more clear.

X jump male - male alive.
X jump female - female dead.

A) It seems a bit risky to presume that male guards won't get into situations like this based on the assumption that "the average bloke has had more fist fights in his life than the average girl", since this really doesn't say anything about one single individual. Besides, training and routines should make sure that guards don't behave carelessly around prisoners. What was she supposed to do, anyway? She had to turn her back on the prisoner to open the door.

B) I may have misread your post. I thought you said most men would handle the assault better than the guard did. Anyway, this is still individual. It would be wrong to reject a woman based on the assumption that most men handle assaults better. Likewise, it would be wrong to presume that an individual man would handle assaults well just because he is a man. There are probably many women who would handle similar situations better than the average man (and, of course, vice versa).

C) Speculations, speculations. Lack of routines, individual yadayada

D) My objection was that this prisoner probably wasn't more prone to attack women since he had attacked men too. As for the earlier case: I don't know much about that situation, but it was probably different from this one. So a comparison like that really isn't possible.

What was your point again?

That this would never have happened if routines had been followed, and that a man wouldn't have survived an attack from behind like that either. Assuming that the situation would never have occurred in the first place if the guard had been a man is just speculative and generalizing.

Kadagar_AV

09-06-2012, 21:38

A) It seems a bit risky to presume that male guards won't get into situations like this based on the assumption that "the average bloke has had more fist fights in his life than the average girl", since this really doesn't say anything about one single individual. Besides, training and routines should make sure that guards don't behave carelessly around prisoners. What was she supposed to do, anyway? She had to turn her back on the prisoner to open the door.

B) I may have misread your post. I thought you said most men would handle the assault better than the guard did. Anyway, this is still individual. It would be wrong to reject a woman based on the assumption that most men handle assaults better. Likewise, it would be wrong to presume that an individual man would handle assaults well just because he is a man. There are probably many women who would handle similar situations better than the average man (and, of course, vice versa).

C) Speculations, speculations. Lack of routines, individual yadayada

D) My objection was that this prisoner probably wasn't more prone to attack women since he had attacked men too. As for the earlier case: I don't know much about that situation, but it was probably different from this one. So a comparison like that really isn't possible.

That this would never have happened if routines had been followed, and that a man wouldn't have survived an attack from behind like that either. Assuming that the situation would never have occurred in the first place if the guard had been a man is just speculative and generalizing.

Thank you Paltmull. Some of the other members think I exaggerate Swedish mainstream thinking, or that lunatic feminist beliefs of equality (no matter what) is only upheld by radical feminists, not the male and female population at large.

A) Let us make it even more simple for you. Do you agree that the average guy could trash the average woman?

Also, no. You do not have to let a person out of your field of vision to open a door. Come on now, really?

B) You did not misread my post. I DID very much say most men would have handled the assault better than the guard did. I also gave your some compelling reasons as to why, that you somehow neglected to answer.

So here they come again.

* The average guy would have been bigger than this miniscule girl.
* The average guy has access to a whole other fighting metabolism than a woman have, giving him an edge.
* The average guy would have grown up in a surrounding that betters prepare him for physical violence than a girl.

If you do not understand one of my points, then just say it so I can clarify. Please do not just skip past them and go on like nothing happened like you just did.

C) Of course it is speculation. However, you can speculate in different ways. "Marsians could have landed and sorted it" is a speculation, but not a very constructive one on a political forum like this, or in a debate like this. Here we prefer to speculate using facts, logic and analysis...

Why don't you join in? :)

D) I haven't fought your objection, I just found some of it it completely out of place and the rest very much counter-productive to the argument you yourself did.

As your yourself said, he attacked a male and the male lived. He attacked a female and the female died. How could POSSIBLY these facts strengthen your point and weaken mine?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-06-2012, 21:42

Paltmull

09-06-2012, 23:44

Thank you Paltmull. Some of the other members think I exaggerate Swedish mainstream thinking, or that lunatic feminist beliefs of equality (no matter what) is only upheld by radical feminists, not the male and female population at large.

A) Let us make it even more simple for you. Do you agree that the average guy could trash the average woman?

Also, no. You do not have to let a person out of your field of vision to open a door. Come on now, really?

B) You did not misread my post. I DID very much say most men would have handled the assault better than the guard did. I also gave your some compelling reasons as to why, that you somehow neglected to answer.

So here they come again.

* The average guy would have been bigger than this miniscule girl.
* The average guy has access to a whole other fighting metabolism than a woman have, giving him an edge.
* The average guy would have grown up in a surrounding that betters prepare him for physical violence than a girl.

If you do not understand one of my points, then just say it so I can clarify. Please do not just skip past them and go on like nothing happened like you just did.

C) Of course it is speculation. However, you can speculate in different ways. "Marsians could have landed and sorted it" is a speculation, but not a very constructive one on a political forum like this, or in a debate like this. Here we prefer to speculate using facts, logic and analysis...

Why don't you join in? :)

D) I haven't fought your objection, I just found some of it it completely out of place and the rest very much counter-productive to the argument you yourself did.

As your yourself said, he attacked a male and the male lived. He attacked a female and the female died. How could POSSIBLY these facts strengthen your point and weaken mine?

Who says my views represent those of the male population at large?

Okay, I'll answer the A through D stuff very shortly, and then try to make some sort of point out of my admittedly rather incoherent arguing.

A) Yes
B)
- That wouldn't help him withstanding excessive violence from behind to the head
- That wouldn't help him withstanding excessive violence from behind to the head
- That wouldn't help him withstanding excessive violence from behind to the head
C) Gah, whatevs.
D) Those facts strengthen my point, that it was not the case that he attacked the guard because of her sex. It does not strengthen your point as long as we don't know anything about what happened in the other situation (in what manner was he attacked? were there other guards present? etc)

What I originally said in this thread was:

1) The cause of this incident was lacking routines.

2) Sex or physical strength don't really matter when you are attacked from behind that way.

If the very same situation (a single guard being attacked from behind by that prisoner) had occurred, but with a male guard, the outcome would most likely have been the same. The fact that the guard wasn't careful enough around the prisoner was not the result of some female inability to understand the risk. We can only speculate (yay! speculation!) on why she did it. Most probably it was lack af decent training and the fact that she hadn't been warned that the prisoner was dangerous. Maybe it was stupidity. But to say that women wouldn't be able to understand the risk of such a situation, because they're not used to male aggression, is just wrong. Women are equipped with common sense too. You don't need much experience with fist fights to understand the danger of that situation. The reason that she didn't was not her sex.

Anyway, none of this really matters, because OF COURSE i don't argue that a 1.60 tall person should be left alone with a prisoner like that, or any prisoner for that matter. The situation should never have been allowed to occur in the first place. In a prison that strictly follows good routines, a 1.60 tall woman CAN be a guard. To send such a person, alone, to take care of an extremely dangerous prisoner is of course completely insane. Feminists would never argue that a single woman should be given that task. The cause of this woman's death was NOT feminism, it was an incredible lack in routines.

Kadagar_AV

09-07-2012, 00:38

Who says my views represent those of the male population at large?

Okay, I'll answer the A through D stuff very shortly, and then try to make some sort of point out of my admittedly rather incoherent arguing.

A) Yes
B)
- That wouldn't help him withstanding excessive violence from behind to the head
- That wouldn't help him withstanding excessive violence from behind to the head
- That wouldn't help him withstanding excessive violence from behind to the head
C) Gah, whatevs.
D) Those facts strengthen my point, that it was not the case that he attacked the guard because of her sex. It does not strengthen your point as long as we don't know anything about what happened in the other situation (in what manner was he attacked? were there other guards present? etc)

What I originally said in this thread was:

1) The cause of this incident was lacking routines.

2) Sex or physical strength don't really matter when you are attacked from behind that way.

If the very same situation (a single guard being attacked from behind by that prisoner) had occurred, but with a male guard, the outcome would most likely have been the same. The fact that the guard wasn't careful enough around the prisoner was not the result of some female inability to understand the risk. We can only speculate (yay! speculation!) on why she did it. Most probably it was lack af decent training and the fact that she hadn't been warned that the prisoner was dangerous. Maybe it was stupidity. But to say that women wouldn't be able to understand the risk of such a situation, because they're not used to male aggression, is just wrong. Women are equipped with common sense too. You don't need much experience with fist fights to understand the danger of that situation. The reason that she didn't was not her sex.

Anyway, none of this really matters, because OF COURSE i don't argue that a 1.60 tall person should be left alone with a prisoner like that, or any prisoner for that matter. The situation should never have been allowed to occur in the first place. In a prison that strictly follows good routines, a 1.60 tall woman CAN be a guard. To send such a person, alone, to take care of an extremely dangerous prisoner is of course completely insane. Feminists would never argue that a single woman should be given that task. The cause of this woman's death was NOT feminism, it was an incredible lack in routines.

You know what, I will not spend any more time with you on this discussion.

I have spent a considerable amount of my time already, for free, showing you how your arguments just DO NOT HOLD UP in an international court, abandoned by your usual surrounding of merry feminist Swedes.

Please do not get me wrong, I am not giving up on the debate. It is just that, by now, I have disarmed any logical explanation you might have from a Swedish perspective, so I can now lean back and let the international members take over, repeatedly trashing your objections around.

I think anyone who have read the last couple of pages wouldn't hesitate to come to a conclusion.

I know you still struggle to, but then, I recognize myself a LOT in you!! I entered these boards back in 2003, and since then I have, very much unwillingly, been logically forced to change my position on a lot of things. I understand your struggle, coming from one of the last socialistic states surviving, who went on to build up a feminist approach to world views, it is hard to take a deep breath and change a whole new world.

But hey, you are one of few Swedes who dare to take debates in the first place. You obviously have a strong will to act right. My only advice as a ex-pat, is to know and accept when you are beaten.

So please, think about the conversation we had, and question yourself if you are really in the right here.

Oh and BTW, this reminds me of a discussion I had on the subway not long ago... With another Swedish feminist. I posted it on another forum, but I might as well just post it here:

Most hilarious discussion I have had up to date just happened, I do however warn that I will come off as a man chauvinistic pig, but then this woman was REALLY annoying and loud on the subway:

M) You REALLY say women are better than men?
F) Yes!
M) At what?
F) What do you mean?
M) Well you have to be more specific, what are they better at, icehockey?
F) Well, obviously not...
M) So what other physical activity then? I grant you desert survival, but not much else, or?
F) Well, men are obviously have a greater physical capability than women, but women have greater mental abilities!!
M) So the greatest chess players are all women?
F) ... uhmm...
M) The greatest gô players?
F) What?
M) Nevermind, you wouldn't know what that is. Regardless, how many women do you know that beat their male peers at any of the activities with which we measure mental capability with?
F) But that is just because we have been pushed down for centuries!!
M) Centuries? Try ages, but last I checked we have had a functional math institution for decades, girls do better than boys in math up to university level, but then somehow the greatest minds in math at the top levels are still, guess what, men.
F) *quiet, but boiling... staring angrily at me*
M) Should I take that as, if we set aside everything both physical and mental, girls are as good as boys?
F) *tries to slap my face*
M) *catch her hand mid air as I saw it coming, pump her hand up and down 3 times going "Tuut Tuut TUUUT" like a train, and then release her.*
F) *storms off, one of her fiends shooting me an angry stare as they take off, the other one kicking my leg before skipping a few steps (like if I would kick her back)*

Don't get me wrong, I can count SO many situations where I would prefer to have a woman as back up rather than a man. But really, I have had enough of rampant Swedish feminists...

Oh, and a guy came up with his snus case, and said he would like to offer me one not even knowing if I used the shit. "Du måste ju ha en snus nu"

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-07-2012, 01:56

Greyblades

09-07-2012, 02:03

Who? The murderer or the actor?

Kadagar_AV

09-07-2012, 02:11

I was going to make a snarky comment about being ignored and how I was going to let the "thicker blooded Swedish speaking Swedes" fight it out... but then I saw Kadagar had liked my comment.

So it's all good.

Now - what would our ancestors do to him?

You STILL have to answer my answer to the weed debate before I will go overboard answering you...

last I checked, I spent a night going through KJV finding the exact quotation of God telling us it is all alright to use herbs on our behalf... And I wasn't even dignified with an answer.

I am just joking of course mate, kudos :)

Thanks for the respect, but I will NOT hesitate to let others fight my battle here... In this question I am worn and bruised...Did I mention worn? I live amongst this :inquisitive:

Andres

09-07-2012, 08:24

You know what, I will not spend any more time with you on this discussion.

I have spent a considerable amount of my time already, for free, showing you how your arguments just DO NOT HOLD UP in an international court, abandoned by your usual surrounding of merry feminist Swedes.

I always spend my time here for free. Do you normally get paid for posting at internetfora? Where do I sign up?

It is just that, by now, I have disarmed any logical explanation you might have from a Swedish perspective, so I can now lean back and let the international members take over, repeatedly trashing your objections around.

Maybe it's because I have a secret desire to be as Swedish as possible, but I think our resident Swedish feminist extremist Paltmull has made some decent points.

The main causes of this particular death are a combination of poor prison regulations (unarmed, only one guard with a high risk prisoner) and stupidity (turning her back to him while she was alone). That doesn't automatically mean that perhaps a 6 feet tall strong guy would be better suited for this kind of job, but this event probably isn't the best example to draw such a conclusion. One unarmed guard alone with this guy, with her back turned to him is something that shouldn't have happened, period. I know rules and regulations cannot foresee every hypothetical situation, but it's a no-brainer that this particular situation shouldn't have been possible; the fact that this happened is because of a lack of decent training, education and failing protocol.

I think anyone who have read the last couple of pages wouldn't hesitate to come to a conclusion.

Indeed, sir. I came to the conclusion that the main causes for this event were poor prison regulations, bad training and perhaps also poor judgement by the victim. And making a mistake or a poor judgement is not the monopoly of women, because then I would be female.

But hey, you are one of few Swedes who dare to take debates in the first place. You obviously have a strong will to act right. My only advice as a ex-pat, is to know and accept when you are beaten.

So please, think about the conversation we had, and question yourself if you are really in the right here.

So, from now on, we can end BR debates by declaring ourselves "the winner" and saying we are right? I guess quiet a few members here are now bashing their heads against the wall in frustration for all the countless hours wasted trying to convince other people of their viewpoints while all they had to do was saying "I'm right, you're wrong, I win."

~;p

HopAlongBunny

09-07-2012, 08:56

Bad handling protocol and bad decisions. What did feminism have to do with this again?

Fragony

09-07-2012, 09:00

Bad handling protocol and bad decisions. What did feminism have to do with this again?

Because feminists are furious at the actor who stated the obvious.

Sweden was a lot less confusing when the women still had beards and raided England

Andres

09-07-2012, 09:04

Sweden was a lot less confusing when the women still had beards and raided England

:laugh4:

HopAlongBunny

09-07-2012, 09:19

[QUOTE=Fragony;2053480947 Sweden was a lot less confusing when the women still had beards and raided England[/QUOTE]

Womens wit b-b-b-blonde b-b-b-beards!?? Where!???

Fragony

09-07-2012, 09:23

Womens wit b-b-b-blonde b-b-b-beards!?? Where!???

http://www.urlesque.com/2009/10/13/famous-women-mustaches/

SwordsMaster

09-07-2012, 10:02

Agree with Kadagar, the ridiculousness of the feminazi stance in Sweden is getting out of control. I enjoy muddling the waters occasionally while on the bus if the driver is slow/terrible to make comments about how there should be a man driving the bus loudly enough for passengers to hear. My gf then proceeds to pretend she doesn't know me.

Similar gripes I have also with service - the concept of 'we're all equal' is so deeply engrained in the psyche that even people in the service industry (waiters, receptionist, etc) act as if they were not actually there to serve you, as if you making a reasonable request (after waiting for a meal for 45min, often!) in some way meant you intended to make them feel inferior. One of my friends got rudely told off by a waitress in a 'nice' restaurant because he forgot to shut the street door behind him (in the summer!), and the waitress went on a tirade about how he thought of her as inferior, and what did he think her job was! Needless to say my friend replied it was to make his evening a hassle free one, and proceeded to speak to the manager and leave the restaurant. You're getting PAID to serve people for christ sake!

Which is why I like Finland. People are much more realistic, and I find overall it is less important there to appear to be 'lagom'. Which - i'm sure Kadagar can explain better than I can - is an aspect that permeates everything in Sweden.

Life, however is not generally 'lagom', and the failure to accept this means Sweden lives in a 'pretend' - bubble which only works when there is absolutely no conflict.

Fragony

09-07-2012, 10:17

SwordsMaster

09-07-2012, 11:01

Heh 'feminazism' mind if I borrow that? And yeah Sweden is kinda nuts you really have to be careful what you say there, not something I'm very good at. A well-meant joke can get you the stare of death

You may borrow it, but only use it for good. The thing to realise about Sweden is that in the overwhelming majority of cases the MOST you'll ever get is a stare.

Fragony

09-07-2012, 11:30

It's not just Sweden though, Sharon Bowles furiously screams NEINNEINNEINNEIN to appointing Yves Mersch as member of the ECB and blocking it. He may be the best man for the job, but he has one major shortcomming. Guess what it is.

Unsurprisingly she has short red hair http://www.google.com/search?hl=nl&tbo=d&authuser=0&biw=1024&bih=644&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=sharon+bowles&oq=sharon+bow&gs_l=img.1.1.0i19l5.11194.14406.0.16631.11.10.1.0.0.0.198.974.2j6.8.0...0.0...1ac.1.WQ0B3JCA0r0#biv= i|18;d|q-dfGPltKtUmRM:

Solving a monetary crisis is important of course, but for Sharon Bowles there are more important things

Edit: lol for the Dutchies, I doubt my favorite female columnist would like Sweden http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2012/09/positief_discrimineren_met_de.html

Kralizec

09-07-2012, 11:41

Gingers, can't trust them.

Paltmull

09-07-2012, 16:06

I always spend my time here for free. Do you normally get paid for posting at internetfora? Where do I sign up?

Maybe it's because I have a secret desire to be as Swedish as possible, but I think our resident Swedish feminist extremist Paltmull has made some decent points.

The main causes of this particular death are a combination of poor prison regulations (unarmed, only one guard with a high risk prisoner) and stupidity (turning her back to him while she was alone). That doesn't automatically mean that perhaps a 6 feet tall strong guy would be better suited for this kind of job, but this event probably isn't the best example to draw such a conclusion. One unarmed guard alone with this guy, with her back turned to him is something that shouldn't have happened, period. I know rules and regulations cannot foresee every hypothetical situation, but it's a no-brainer that this particular situation shouldn't have been possible; the fact that this happened is because of a lack of decent training, education and failing protocol.

Indeed, sir. I came to the conclusion that the main causes for this event were poor prison regulations, bad training and perhaps also poor judgement by the victim. And making a mistake or a poor judgement is not the monopoly of women, because then I would be female.

So, from now on, we can end BR debates by declaring ourselves "the winner" and saying we are right? I guess quiet a few members here are now bashing their heads against the wall in frustration for all the countless hours wasted trying to convince other people of their viewpoints while all they had to do was saying "I'm right, you're wrong, I win."

~;p

Thank you!

The ability to survive alone in a room with a psycotic bear-man should not be a criterium for being recruited as a prison guard. Protocol and training should make sure that these things don't happen. I won't continue this discussion either since Kadagar - after his self-proclaimed victory - won't reply to my posts (not for free at least ;) )

Fragony

09-07-2012, 16:14

The ability to survive alone in a room with a psycotic bear-man should not be a criterium for being recruited as a prison guard. Protocol and training should make sure that these things don't happen. I won't continue this discussion either since Kadagar - after his self-proclaimed victory - won't reply to my posts (not for free at least ;) )

I am sure that somehow makes sense and that we shouldn't call an ambulance

SwordsMaster

09-07-2012, 19:14

Thank you!

The ability to survive alone in a room with a psycotic bear-man should not be a criterium for being recruited as a prison guard. Protocol and training should make sure that these things don't happen. I won't continue this discussion either since Kadagar - after his self-proclaimed victory - won't reply to my posts (not for free at least ;) )

It bloody sure as hell helps if your job involves spending time with the bear-man in question.

I do agree here though also that the tragedy could have been prevented had training/equipment/protocol been less moronic.

Vladimir

09-07-2012, 19:38

So I think we can all agree that the prison system/corrections facility is liable for her death?

rvg

09-07-2012, 19:48

So I think we can all agree that the prison system/corrections facility is liable for her death?

She is liable for her death in equal measure.

Vladimir

09-07-2012, 19:49

She is liable for her death in equal measure.

This should be interesting. Please explain.

rvg

09-07-2012, 19:51

This should be interesting. Please explain.

Like I said earlier in this thread: she took a job which she wasn't physically qualified to take and paid the ultimate price for that.

Vladimir

09-07-2012, 20:41

Like I said earlier in this thread: she took a job which she wasn't physically qualified to take and paid the ultimate price for that.

I'm quite sure she was physically qualified to perform a wide variety of duties. It was her employer that assigned her the duty that lead to their death. Sort of like the Navy assigning a paraplegic to work the flight deck.

rvg

09-07-2012, 20:48

I'm quite sure she was physically qualified to perform a wide variety of duties. It was her employer that assigned her the duty that lead to their death. Sort of like the Navy assigning a paraplegic to work the flight deck.

Except that the paraplegic enlisted voluntarily, and the NAVY was unwilling to reject him for the sake of political correctness.

Vladimir

09-07-2012, 20:53

Except that the paraplegic enlisted voluntarily, and the NAVY was unwilling to reject him for the sake of political correctness.

Was thinking more of a civilian employee. So you would hold the employee liable for his own death if he died on the flight line?

rvg

09-07-2012, 21:02

Was thinking more of a civilian employee. So you would hold the employee liable for his own death if he died on the flight line?
If he was paraplegic and the NAVY was not allowed to turn him down? Hell yeah.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-07-2012, 21:56

Like I said earlier in this thread: she took a job which she wasn't physically qualified to take and paid the ultimate price for that.

The employer has a duty of care not to hire her - this was Kadagar's original point, when one girl believes she can be a prison guard it's her fault. When she and other girls like her are encouraged and actually hired, it is society's fault.

rvg

09-07-2012, 23:15

The employer has a duty of care not to hire her - this was Kadagar's original point, when one girl believes she can be a prison guard it's her fault. When she and other girls like her are encouraged and actually hired, it is society's fault.

She was born with a brain and elected not to use it. It's just as much her fault as it is society's. Nobody obligated her to take that job.

Fragony

09-07-2012, 23:49

She was born with a brain and elected not to use it. It's just as much her fault as it is society's. Nobody obligated her to take that job.

Oh so indeed

edit: 'elected not to' nice expression, added

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-08-2012, 00:04

She was born with a brain and elected not to use it. It's just as much her fault as it is society's. Nobody obligated her to take that job.

She used here brain according to conventional Swedish wisdom - that's Kadagar's point.

rvg

09-08-2012, 01:07

She used here brain according to conventional Swedish wisdom - that's Kadagar's point.

Yet most women in Sweden choose not to follow "conventional Swedish wisdom."

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-08-2012, 01:50

Yet most women in Sweden choose not to follow "conventional Swedish wisdom."

Yes they do - that's the point.

rvg

09-08-2012, 02:07

Yes they do - that's the point.

If they did, there would have been more competition for the job, and prison authorities would have had a chance to hire a woman with better qualifications.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-08-2012, 02:21

If they did, there would have been more competition for the job, and prison authorities would have had a chance to hire a woman with better qualifications.

She had excellent qualifications for the Swedish Justic System.

THAT IS ALSO THE POINT - SWEDEN IS NOT THE USA.

rvg

09-08-2012, 03:19

She had excellent qualifications for the Swedish Justic System.
Says who?

SWEDEN IS NOT THE USA.
I am aware of that.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-08-2012, 15:25

Says who?

The Swedish press and blogosphere - she had a degree in inmate rehabilitation, or something or other.

I am aware of that.

Yes but you fail to process the implications - namely that the idea that brute force, rather than a nice chat, is how you deal with violent sociopaths is anathema to Swedish justice. Look at Breivik just over the border in Norway - Norway's most accomplished terrorist and serial killer will be up for parole in about ten years.

Kadagar_AV

09-08-2012, 15:38

BTW, I haven't given up on the thread... I am just trying to understand how I can formulate the problem without going through the last 30 years of gender development in Sweden...

rvg

09-08-2012, 16:02

The Swedish press and blogosphere...
That's not an authority. Statistics, show me some.

Yes but you fail to process the implications - namely that the idea that brute force, rather than a nice chat, is how you deal with violent sociopaths is anathema to Swedish justice. Look at Breivik just over the border in Norway - Norway's most accomplished terrorist and serial killer will be up for parole in about ten years.
You're implying that a physically strong person is incapable of a "nice chat" and yet somehow I "fail to process the implications"?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-08-2012, 16:27

That's not an authority. Statistics, show me some.

Then read Paltmull's posts again, or read what the "Orthodox" Swedish sources say about there being no issue with a tiny girl working with violent criminals.

You're implying that a physically strong person is incapable of a "nice chat" and yet somehow I "fail to process the implications"?

No, I'm telling you that from a Swedish perspective she was eminently qualified to work as a "Correctional Officer", without any reference to her physical condition.

You're argument that "she wasn't physically suited" to the job would not enter into the mind of any "right thinking" Swede, so she cannot be held to be culpable for her own death.

In point of fact, it probably enters into the minds of a lot of Swedes, especially large men, but they daren't say it - which is why Kadagar started this thread.

rvg

09-08-2012, 16:38

Then read Paltmull's posts again, or read what the "Orthodox" Swedish sources say about there being no issue with a tiny girl working with violent criminals.
That has nothing to do with my statement. I stated that the girl was hired because most girls don't want to work in that line of duty, i.e. she had no competition. If the prison authorities had a choice between a 5 ft pipsqueak and a butchy dyke from a biker gang, they would have never hired the pipsqueak.

No, I'm telling you that from a Swedish perspective she was eminently qualified to work as a "Correctional Officer", without any reference to her physical condition. The point is that since just about any woman is "qualified" to do the job, yet this one ended up getting the job, the competition for that job among women must be virtually nonexistent, because most women in Sweden are smart enough to stay away from that kind of work.

You're argument that "she wasn't physically suited" to the job would not enter into the mind of any "right thinking" Swede, so she cannot be held to be culpable for her own death.
Prove it. What's the ratio of male vs female prison guards at male prisons in Sweden?

Tellos Athenaios

09-08-2012, 16:41

Right, so what would you say when the headline becomes "prison guard kicked in the crotch, then kicked to death" ? Being a big guy won't save you if your assailant is sufficiently determined to harm you.

Not when you are quite alone and have your back turned anyway. From where I'm sitting it's a classic issue of protocol not being observed. Those health and safety regulations are always so over the top and redundant right until it does go wrong. Spectacularly.

rvg

09-08-2012, 16:46

Right, so what would you say when the headline becomes "prison guard kicked in the crotch, then kicked to death" ?

How do you get kicked in the crotch with your back turned towards the assailant?

Tellos Athenaios

09-08-2012, 17:12

How do you get kicked in the crotch with your back turned towards the assailant?

Should I perhaps add more blank lines between my separate paragraphs, next time?

Like this?

Kadagar_AV

09-08-2012, 17:18

The idea that men and women are equal, is so strong in Sweden that it has set aside all logical thinking.

In kindergarten, the boys are actively lead to explore their feminine qualities, and the girls are actively lead to explore their male qualities. This then goes up all the way to school.

Women are now accepted in each and every branch of society, no matter how ill equipped they are. And you are an absolute social pariah if you question the merits in this.

The ONLY place I knew of that fights back, but I haven't checked since 2005, was the very VERY extreme elite of military special ops. Sure, they were still year after year sent women from the pool of recruits, but they had them broken down and shipped home within a week.

They refused to lower their standards, and the women suffered. These are women who could have done well one some navy ship somewhere, but instead they got chewed down and broken. However, that is the ONLY place that break them.

Everywhere else, we have lowered the demands.

This leads to other problems, in all areas of society. Women get positions based on being women, they quite often end up doing a rubbish job, but it would be impossible in the current political setting to point it out.

I saw this most clear when I was in the army. Don't get me wrong, some of the girls were great, but that was mainly those who didn't have front line positions (like if there is a front line in today's wars, but you get my point).

But again, I saw SO many squads where the men had to work double to make up for the shortcomings of their female squad members.

And it pissed me off already back then, some 12 years ago.

The most stupid situation I got in was while doing a looooong ski-march. I was then group leader, had 6 other men with me, and one girl. We brought extended combat equipment (not just personal weapons, but mines and stuff). We also had a sledge for the BFG (a mortar).

Day 1: All goes well, but the girl gets tired. She tried to take a turn pushing the sledge, but just couldnt. So the rest of us took turns.
Day 2: We start to fall behind the schedule. We take parts of her equipment and spread it out over the troop.
Day 3: Same.
Day 4: We take all her equipment save her personal defense weapon and tampons, and split it over the squad.
Day 5: We have to rush to reach where we should be in time. We break the mortar down in pieces, split it over the squad, and put the female member on the sledge.

Then 2 days of combat training with two other squads (without girl). As we are absolutely EXHAUSTED, my squad very much under preform.

Coming back to base, I had a debriefing, and gave my honest view of the reason as to why the squad had had so bad results. This resulted in me very nearly being kicked out of the regiment (it was my combat-training captain who saved me, explaining he'd go if they kicked me out for saying a girl might not have anything to do at a regiment like that).

I guess what I am saying, is that I of course think women should have the same CHANCE to get the job as men... But they are not ENTITLED to it. In Sweden, not only are they entitled, there is also a WALL of hurt coming after anyone who would dare question it.

What this thread was about, was the ABSOLUTE WALL OF PAIN hitting anyone who in Sweden would dare to... You know.. Be honest. It has grown to be a what? A social stigma against anyone opposing this.

The whole feminist debate has boiled down to two camps:

A) Those thinking women are the epitome of GREATNESS in each and every aspect of the world.
B) Unwanted beings in society.

I am afraid we have got a bit too stuck on the jail debate. Of course there were other stupid factors playing in. Of course they need better protocols.

However, what I see is a quite little girl being trashed around because she should never have been there. Her closest colleague is someone possibly even LESS qualified to handle the situation.

In the army, I saw a girl being pushed on a sledge.

At university, I see female gender issue specialists taking over EVERY DAMN INSTITUTION.

Quick example, I studied Literature History. I got a reading list from Homeros to JK Rowlings. Guess what, there were 50/50 men and female writers on that list. Logical? Maybe if the class was about 1900-century writing, but this is world history stuff. There is NO way a reading list for great works over millenniums of years should have an equal dispersion of male/female writers.

What the rest of you, not from Sweden, have to understand... is that this is a very lunatic political view, that goes through EVERYTHING in our society. In every institution of the state, around the coffeetables in the workplaces..

Union member and dare to say a man could possibly do a better job? You'd get kicked out with your head first.

Now studying math, there is some hilarious things going on. As an example, we have a standardized math test a LOT of Swedes do (högskoleprovet). Over the years, we have had MAJOR problems with it, from a feminist perspective.

Girls do better than boys at math in school, where their own subject teacher is setting the grades (yes we do that in Sweden). But for some reason, at the FIRST math test with standardized procedures surrounding the test situation, girls results drop.

They have tried to then CHANGE the math test, to make it "equal". If I understood it right, less questions crunching numbers, more questions about "feel" for math (!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?).

Anyway, it failed. Men STILL do better.

Around me, only hours ago, was a serious discussion of how to make the standardized test equal! I was sitting there... Seeing this big elephant (maybe men... You know... Are just better at it?)... But know what? I kept quiet.

Why? Because 3 different professors have tried to kick me out already over my university years, for stating uncomfortable 8but very true) things.

this might have been a bit of a Rant, but hopefully it help some understand my original point better.

Andres, sorry about the reference to money. It was a bit of a joke. However, as a teacher, I kind of AM used to getting paid when I school people. Like I very much did with Paltmull ;)

rvg

09-08-2012, 17:18

Like this?

I'd rather see you post stuff that makes sense.

Kadagar_AV

09-08-2012, 17:20

Prove it. What's the ratio of male vs female prison guards at male prisons in Sweden?

At the prison she worked at, they evidently had more female than male correctional officers.

rvg

09-08-2012, 17:26

At the prison she worked at, they evidently had more female than male correctional officers.

If this is true, then the system is clearly broken (I'm taking into account the 2nd girl who couldn't subdue the perp). The girl is still a moron for taking that job though.

Kadagar_AV

09-08-2012, 17:34

If this is true, then the system is clearly broken (I'm taking into account the 2nd girl who couldn't subdue the perp). The girl is still a moron for taking that job though.

It IS true and sourced in this thread already. And yes, the system is clearly broken.

Fisherking

09-08-2012, 17:35

@ rvg

I think you are fixated on the fact that she was a small female and because she was weaker she should not have had the job.

It was not her stature or strength that got her killed. It was the institutional mind set.

First, she was unarmed and working alone.

Second, the first responder was armed only with a baton and not allowed by regulations to strike the assailant in the head or body but only the extremities. This resulted in the assailant disarming the guard and using the baton on the first victim.

I am guessing that ranged weapons, even of a non lethal type were not an option. Some one with technical knowledge of the system would have to say at what point deadly force is authorized, if ever.

We are told that when a man showed up the prisoner went to his knees and meekly surrendered, but we are not informed how that guard was armed.

To me, it is the procedures that got the guard killed. Had it been a male guard who was surprised, I don’t know that the outcome would have been any different but it would not have raised the outcry.

It is the system and its mind sets that need to be examined.

rvg

09-08-2012, 17:40

The idea that men and women are equal, is so strong in Sweden that it has set aside all logical thinking...
... this might have been a bit of a Rant, but hopefully it help some understand my original point better.

Wow. This is pretty fecking horrible. Not only are unqualified women getting into places they shouldn't be in, but they're also absolved of the responsibility for their failures.

@ rvg

I think you are fixated on the fact that she was a small female and because she was weaker she should not have had the job.

It was not her stature or strength that got her killed. It was the institutional mind set.
I was mostly fixated on the fact that she willingly took the job she wasn't qualified to do.

Fisherking

09-08-2012, 17:58

Wow. This is pretty fecking horrible. Not only are unqualified women getting into places they shouldn't be in, but they're also absolved of the responsibility for their failures.

I was mostly fixated on the fact that she willingly took the job she wasn't qualified to do.

That is what Kadagar AV is telling you though. In Sweden she was lead to believe that she was imminently qualified. But even at that the system failed her.

rvg

09-08-2012, 18:20

...In Sweden she was lead to believe that she was imminently qualified. But even at that the system failed her.

That's the thing though: even if the system tells her that she can do the job, it is still her responsibility to properly assess her abilities and weigh the benefits of the job vs the possibility of getting clobbered to death.

Kadagar_AV

09-08-2012, 18:30

That's the thing though: even if the system tells her that she can do the job, it is still her responsibility to properly assess her abilities and weigh the benefits of the job vs the possibility of getting clobbered to death.

And my point is that she since kindergarten have been lead to believe that she has the ability to do just as good a job as a man, no matter what. She has been lead to believe that she can set all gender differences aside, as she as a woman have an unidentifiable.... ability. GIRL POWER, you know?

I don't think it's her responsibility to see through a lie that have seeped through to every single little bit of the society she lived in.

Kadagar_AV

09-08-2012, 18:33

I think a recent hollywood scene kind of depicts my point excellently...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZrmxMqupVg

rvg

09-08-2012, 18:37

And my point is that she since kindergarten have been lead to believe that she has the ability to do just as good a job as a man, no matter what. She has been lead to believe that she can set all gender differences aside, as she as a woman have an unidentifiable.... ability. GIRL POWER, you know?

I don't think it's her responsibility to see through a lie that have seeped through to every single little bit of the society she lived in.

Oy carramba....

Now lemme ask you this, is the government in Sweden dominated by men or is it 50/50 or mostly women?

Kadagar_AV

09-08-2012, 18:49

Oy carramba....

Now lemme ask you this, is the government in Sweden dominated by men or is it 50/50 or mostly women?

Depends on what level of government... There are also big differences between the different party's (we have 8 in government right now). On the lower levels it is primarily men working, but the more high profile the more 50/50 you get.

When it comes to LEADING the different political party's though, it has been men by and large, as they have had problems finding women good enough. They have tried with some women not good enough, often with hilarious results.

EDIT: "big differences between the party's" <- for being in Sweden of course. They would all have an astonishing amount of women with more international eyes.

rvg

09-08-2012, 18:50

When it comes to LEADING the different political party's though, it has been men by and large, as they have had problems finding women good enough. They have tried with some women not good enough, often with hilarious results.

So, are those men taking daily estrogen injections or something? Why would men want to promote this kind of stupidity as a matter of public policy?

Kadagar_AV

09-08-2012, 19:02

So, are those men taking daily estrogen injections or something? Why would men want to promote this kind of stupidity as a matter of public policy?

It's not stupidity. It's the other countries being stupid. We just have a few small kinks to work out before living in a dream society, see?

rvg

09-08-2012, 19:06

It's not stupidity. It's the other countries being stupid. We just have a few small kinks to work out before living in a dream society, see?

Sorry, I forgot.

Fisherking

09-08-2012, 19:19

It's not stupidity. It's the other countries being stupid. We just have a few small kinks to work out before living in a dream society, see?

And this is what I meant in my first post. It is not so much feminism as feminization of the system in Sweden.

Naturally it is cockeyed. There is a total lack of common sense in the whole approach.

Women are as good or better as men in some endeavors but lacking in others. But the dream world of Sweden all are equal in everything. Which just is not so.

You have a touchy-feely government with an unrealistic view of the world.

I don’t see a quick fix other than having some Latin American country conquering Scandinavia.

rvg

09-08-2012, 20:04

Kadagar_AV

09-08-2012, 20:07

I get it. The problem is not with the girl, but with the perp who killed her: he didn't know that she was a superior being capable of tackling him into submission. Had he known that, he'd immediately drop on his knees just like he did as soon as he saw a male officer running towards him.

Exactly. I think the movie reference was pretty damn spot on, describing both the view of the feminists and the actual outcome in this tragic case.

Ironside

09-08-2012, 21:57

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-08-2012, 22:05

That has nothing to do with my statement. I stated that the girl was hired because most girls don't want to work in that line of duty, i.e. she had no competition. If the prison authorities had a choice between a 5 ft pipsqueak and a butchy dyke from a biker gang, they would have never hired the pipsqueak.

The point is that since just about any woman is "qualified" to do the job, yet this one ended up getting the job, the competition for that job among women must be virtually nonexistent, because most women in Sweden are smart enough to stay away from that kind of work.

This girl was better qualified, she had a degree in a pertinant field.

Prove it. What's the ratio of male vs female prison guards at male prisons in Sweden?

Re-read Kadagar, he already covered this.

rvg

09-08-2012, 22:14

Kadagar_AV

09-08-2012, 22:15

For curiousity, opinion on females on the police force? Same issue of physical strength being very helpful in some situations on the field.

Thought came up from seeing a 20 year old British tv-show btw.

From what I have seen, they seem to be paired up with a male colleague, or on a mission not requiring strength (IE, giving information in schools). I have also seen female police officers put to great use under cover, specially in the Stockholm night club environment, where they can get quite close to the coke-heads.

Police have had issues, but seem to have worked them out by and large. However, the police force isn't CLOSE to 50/50... 90/10 or 80/20 rather.

EDIT: They have however lowered the physical and mental demands to get in (and keep lowering), to accommodate the girls. I would of course have preferred if they had kept the standards.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-08-2012, 23:50

What kills me is that this kind of rabid 'equality' is far from scientific, efficient, or even objective. An ideal society would find a way to exploit the subtle (And not so subtle) differences between men and women by encouraging them to persue fields of study and work that are suited to their particular advantages, as opposed to pretending the world works in a way that it actually does not.

An even better system would assess individuals and be OK with the fact that the average man was stronger and tougher than the average woman.

Gender profiling for jobs is not really a good idea - but anti-profiling for gender-equality is much worse.

Also, I apolagise to rvg for snapping at him, as I apparently missed the previous two hours of mosts.

HOWEVER, I would like to present him with another example: In the US most people are convinced that Socialised Healthcare as practiced in Europe "won't work" in the US, even if it works elsewhere. This is the belief of probably the vast majority of Americans, and Europeans think it's crazy, but we don't think individual Americans are crazy for believing it.

Likewise, the enforced gender blindness in Sweden seems crazy but that doesn't make individual Swedes nuts.

Kadagar_AV

09-09-2012, 02:38

Oh, and Paltmull... join in.

It would be beneficial if you MET some of the arguments this go around though :)

But I do think people would appreciate to hear your view.

Ironside

09-09-2012, 08:08

What's funny is that if the female prison guard had been armed with a gun, and trained and authorized to use it, this certianly would not have happened. Political correctness is bad, mmkay? Someday there will be a backlash for these kinds of over-powered feminist institutions, as men who feel (rightly?) marginalized take out their disgruntledness on a system that seems rigged against them.

Probably not. If it's the woman who died, the prisoner would have the gun. It was a severe breach in protocol.

And the rehabilitation principle works better for most prisoners (who are 1 to 2 timers). And you don't want to talk about the US prisons (who have quite a number of guard fatalities, at least 2 this year, one female veteran killed by a male prisoner, stabbing).

Kadagar_AV

09-09-2012, 08:33

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh....

I made a big error...

Over here we have a correctional system, where we try to get the wrongdoers back out in society.

I compare the Swedish system to other EUROPEAN countries, not to the states. We will have to sort out how to have a correctional system, while you Americans go on figuring out how to best punish people.

Fragony

09-09-2012, 08:40

Well, that's not even the biggest difference. How many European prisons are privatised? How many European prisons are run by corporations that cannot exist without a growing prison population?

I don't think there are any, could be wrong

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-09-2012, 12:54

http://youtu.be/bpA7pfR0FIc

Paltmull

09-10-2012, 17:47

Oh, and Paltmull... join in.

It would be beneficial if you MET some of the arguments this go around though :)

But I do think people would appreciate to hear your view.

Okay then. This isn't going to be easy, since most of the active posters in this thread are aginst my position, but aaanyway...

I also have a lot of studying to do, so I won't be able to be as active in this thread as I was earlier.

First, I would like to point out that all opinions i express in my posts are mine only. I neither represent some "general Swedish", nor "general feminist" view. I feel Kadagar has tended to use my views as "proof" of his picture of the Swedish political climate, which is of course wrong. There are about 9.5 million other Swedes who are not expressing their views in this thread.

I'll first pick out some parts, of Kadagars quite long post, that I think need to be problematized a bit.

Quick example, I studied Literature History. I got a reading list from Homeros to JK Rowlings. Guess what, there were 50/50 men and female writers on that list. Logical? Maybe if the class was about 1900-century writing, but this is world history stuff. There is NO way a reading list for great works over millenniums of years should have an equal dispersion of male/female writers.

What school and course was that? I looked at the reading lists for the basic literature courses at some of the Swedish Universities, and I couldn't find anything like what you described. I even counted the male and female authors from the "litterature history" reading list for the basic literature course at Stockholm University. For the period before 1900, 22 out of 28 auhors were male. For the period after 1900, 4 out of 5 were male.

Now studying math, there is some hilarious things going on. As an example, we have a standardized math test a LOT of Swedes do (högskoleprovet). Over the years, we have had MAJOR problems with it, from a feminist perspective.

Girls do better than boys at math in school, where their own subject teacher is setting the grades (yes we do that in Sweden). But for some reason, at the FIRST math test with standardized procedures surrounding the test situation, girls results drop.

They have tried to then CHANGE the math test, to make it "equal". If I understood it right, less questions crunching numbers, more questions about "feel" for math (!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?).

Anyway, it failed. Men STILL do better.

Around me, only hours ago, was a serious discussion of how to make the standardized test equal! I was sitting there... Seeing this big elephant (maybe men... You know... Are just better at it?)... But know what? I kept quiet.

I'll first explain what test Kadagar is talking about. Högskoleprovet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6gskoleprovet) is a standardized test that covers skills in Swedish, English and math. In Sweden you mostly apply for university courses and programs based on your high-school grades. You can also take "Högskoleprovet" and use that score to apply for university studies. Far from everyone takes this test, and the biggest reason to take it is probably that you don't have access to a certain university education, because your high school grades are to low.

Now, the main reason for changing the test in 2011 was, according to the Swedish National Agency for Higher Education, to make it better predict sucess in University studies, and to adjust it more for educations with more technic and natural science content. Women were expected to score higher on this test than on the previous one, since the connection to school-mathematics was strengthened, and female students generally have better math-grades than male students (source: http://www.hsv.se/publikationerarkiv/artiklar/2012/gynnasmanavdetnyahogskoleprovet.5.3885fac81370cede78a8000410.html). However, from what I have found, this was not the reason that the test was changed. The reason was what I have mentioned above.

Regarding the difference in results between men and women: I don't know whether men are better than women at math, but I think there are other explanatory factors to the differences. As I said earlier, the test results can be used instead of your high-school grades when you apply for college. This means that people will generally take the test if their grades are too low. The reason that girls get better high school grades than boys is most likely not that girls are smarter than boys. Rather, the reason is social. My experiences from school tell me that girls often do study more. This is most likely because girls mature earlier and because there is often an anti-study culture among boys. Boys that study a lot are seen as nerds etc. Anyway, boys underperform in school, while girls don't. This means that many of the men that later take "Högskoleprovet", are those that underperformed in school despite being intelligent. The intelligent women, on the other hand, already recieved good grades in school and therefore don't need to take the test. This results in more of the intelligent men and less of the intelligent women taking the test, hence the difference in results. I don't have any research to back this up, but I think it's a plausible explanation for some of the differences. Also, IIRC, men re-take the test more often than women. Most people probably get a higher score the second time they do the test.

Sorry for the wall of text. Writing this took me much longer than I had expected. I realize that I have just picked out some minor examples in one of Kadagar's posts, and that I haven't even adressed the more general questions in this thread, but I will have to do that later. I have to study now.