Objections to the Sex Trade

[Vuk]

Response is to the opening post of this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?142396-15-days-in-the-Philippines-or-how-to-blow-10k-in-2-weeks).

You took advantage of dirt poor women in a third world country for sex and picked up two underaged girls? What do you want, a cookie? Having sex with a desperate, dirt poor woman who would only spit on you if you paid her money, and then giving her more than the asking rate does not make you a hero...just a poorer sap than the others.

[Kadagar_AV]

You took advantage of dirt poor women in a third world country for sex and picked up two underaged girls? What do you want, a cookie? Having sex with a desperate, dirt poor woman who would only spit on you if you paid her money, and then giving her more than the asking rate does not make you a hero...just a poorer sap than the others.

That is one way of looking at it. Heck, don't get me wrong, it's a very correct way to look at it as well.

Another way of looking at it would be to say: It's an American trooper doing better than 99% of his fellow troopers.

We can fight over the issues, but it would be very unfair to jump on MRD as an individual in a crazy world. Heck, MRD is probably one of the staunchest supporters of the belief you propose, among the people on this forum.

The problem on a forum like this, is that you after a while have to learn to separate between attacking an individual, and a standpoint.

Or to be blunt, I much prefer a guy screaming in a pimps face-> "GET A JOB" as he walks away with the girl, than a guy frowning upon prostitution on an anonymous forum.

[Major Robert Dump]

You took advantage of dirt poor women in a third world country for sex and picked up two underaged girls? What do you want, a cookie? Having sex with a desperate, dirt poor woman who would only spit on you if you paid her money, and then giving her more than the asking rate does not make you a hero...just a poorer sap than the others -deleted sentence-.



You have no idea what you are talking about, little boy.

These women were with me voluntarily, they are not slaves and I broke no laws. Did you even read my post? What makes you think I would spit on any of them or they would spit on me? The PI is not dirt poor. Do you even know it's history? Their attitudes on sex? How they feel about Americans? Do you know anything?

I did not have sex with underage girls, they could not prove their ages so I sent them away, as I had no way for sure of knowing their age. I suggest you take a step back before calling me a pedophile
again.

I knew well before I posted this that you would give me guff. Just because I would rather spend my money on booze and woman than shooting pig carcasses with my hillbilly family does not require your judgement. Most of the women I met there I still maintain contact with. But hey, why do I need to justify myself to you, who has proven time and time again that his reasoning, his ethics and his common sense are all null and void. Go back to your hole and fabricate conspiracies about the shootings being a left-wing plan to enact gun control. You have problems, dude

[Vuk]

You have no idea what you are talking about, little boy.

These women were with me voluntarily, they are not slaves and I broke no laws. Did you even read my post? What makes you think I would spit on any of them? The PI is not dirt poor.

I did not have sex with underage girls, they could not prove their ages so I sent them away, as I had no way for sure of knowing their age. I suggest you take a step back before calling a pedophile
again.

I knew well before I posted this that you would give me guff. Just because I would rather spend my money on booze and woman than shooting pig carcasses with my hillbilly family does not require your judgement. Most of the women I met there I still maintain contact with. Bu hey, why do I need to justify myself to you, who has proven time and time again that his reasoning, his ethics and his common sense are all null and void. Go back to your hole and fabricate conspiracies about the shootings being a left-wing plan to enact gun control. You have problems, dude

You think those women would even look at you if they did not think they would get money? Justify it any way you want, but you are just another blot on humanity.
Having a thriving sex-tourism trade does does nothing to improve the status of women in a country, and you are supporting that system. Do you think if these women were as financially well off as most Americans they would even bother talking to you? No, most would not. They are doing it because they are poor, and because some of them have poor family members pressuring them to do it. You think they really want to have sex with you? Of course not, they just need the money. You are having sex with women who probably mostly do not want to have sex with you because you can. And don't tell me about how much they liked you and wanted to have sex with you, because that is what they are paid to do; to make stupid men feel like some hot foriegn woman likes them and wants to have sex with them. If you wanted to feel like Mr. nice guy and help them out, you could have given them the money and not slept with them. You knew you were taking advantage of them, and you gave them a bunch of extra-money to justify what you did and make yourself feel like a nice guy instead of a dick.
Call me what you want MRD, but what you think of me has nothing to do with what you have been bragging about doing. I wasn't going to come out and say it quite this way, but hey, you did it first.

[Kadagar_AV]

You think those women would even look at you if they did not think they would get money? Justify it any way you want, but you are just another blot on humanity.
Having a thriving sex-tourism trade does does nothing to improve the status of women in a country, and you are supporting that system. Do you think if these women were as financially well off as most Americans they would even bother talking to you? No, most would not. They are doing it because they are poor, and because some of them have poor family members pressuring them to do it. You think they really want to have sex with you? Of course not, they just need the money. You are having sex with women who probably mostly do not want to have sex with you because you can. And don't tell me about how much they liked you and wanted to have sex with you, because that is what they are paid to do; to make stupid men feel like some hot foriegn woman likes them and wants to have sex with them. If you wanted to feel like Mr. nice guy and help them out, you could have given them the money and not slept with them. You knew you were taking advantage of them, and you gave them a bunch of extra-money to justify what you did and make yourself feel like a nice guy instead of a dick.
Call me what you want MRD, but what you think of me has nothing to do with what you have been bragging about doing. I wasn't going to come out and say it quite this way, but hey, you did it first.

Ah damn... I tried to pick it apart but it's just true.

I still prefer someone screaming in a pimps face "GET A JOB" compared to 99% of humanity though. He has done something factual against it...

[Major Robert Dump]

You think those women would even look at you if they did not think they would get money? Justify it any way you want, but you are just another blot on humanity.
Having a thriving sex-tourism trade does does nothing to improve the status of women in a country, and you are supporting that system. Do you think if these women were as financially well off as most Americans they would even bother talking to you? No, most would not. They are doing it because they are poor, and because some of them have poor family members pressuring them to do it. You think they really want to have sex with you? Of course not, they just need the money. You are having sex with women who probably mostly do not want to have sex with you because you can. And don't tell me about how much they liked you and wanted to have sex with you, because that is what they are paid to do; to make stupid men feel like some hot foriegn woman likes them and wants to have sex with them. If you wanted to feel like Mr. nice guy and help them out, you could have given them the money and not slept with them. You knew you were taking advantage of them, and you gave them a bunch of extra-money to justify what you did and make yourself feel like a nice guy instead of a dick.
Call me what you want MRD, but what you think of me has nothing to do with what you have been bragging about doing. I wasn't going to come out and say it quite this way, but hey, you did it first.


I think I made it quite clear fairly early on that I had no illusions that these women would be interested in me were it not for money. And considering "security" is typically right up on the top of the list when women are polled with what they look for in a man, it is not unreasonable to believe that they would go with me, as I will clearly demonstrate when I travel to Cebu.

I suggest that you visit a strip club in Dallas or Houston if you think the phenomenon is specific to Asia. You may need to put on a tie, though, which you probably do not own. I also recommend googling something like, oh Backpage+Indianapolis+Escorts and see what you find.

You are apparently unaware that men, for a few thousand years, have a tendency to be attracted to young women. And that some men, at some point, decide that the drama of relationships is a little too much and perhaps they would just rather, you know, pay for sex. And that there are plenty of women, to include your neighbors and relatives and the girl at the barista, who will gladly exchange money for a few hours of such activity.

You are obviously unaware of the huge, educated middle class in the PI that is making them the go-to country for outsourcing for IT, customer service and manufacturing, and you seem to think that the only way for a woman to make money in the PI is to sell herself. Call a credit card hotline or a big bank hotline, and you will likley be talking to someone from the Philippines, assuming you have a credit card.

You are obviously unaware that their problems stem not from a poor economy, but from a lack of space to expand, which results in even middle class families living in what we would consider rough conditions.

You are obviously unaware that another major issue facing them is overpopulation, which stems from both Catholicism (no birth control) and their open sexuality.

You are obviuously unaware that they have a virtually unregulated firearms ownership system, which lends greatly to the crime rates in the country, and gives them 3rd world crime rates when in fact they are not third world.

You apparently do not realize that Filipinos are not xenophobes, like you, and typically judge a race or nationality based on their merits and experience with said nationaility, and they have a tendency to really like Americans, British and Australians, even when we behave like asses, for reasons that go back a few generations but you probably do not know because you are too busy wrestling with your brothers.

Believe me, dude, if the ugly sex tourists didn't visit the PI, the women in the PI would still be doing what they are doing now, they would just make a lot less money doing it. There are "local rates" and "foreigner rates" just like anywhere else.

Me not visiting the PI will affect what is happening there about as much as you will affect Wal Mart by not shopping there.

You seem to think I came here to brag, or be viewed as a hero. This is not the case. I am sharing a story and photos, oh bearer-of-womens-rights that you are. I went to an emerging economy, and I had sex with a lot of women and paid them for it, just like I do with women in the United States; I established some business networks, and I did some nice things for people. That is the story.

Save your outrage for the countries who import Filipino labor, take their phones, take their visas and treat them like slaves. I didn't make this world, I just live in it, and I am having a lot of goddamned fun

** You apparently missed the parts where I gave women money and did not sleep with them. On many occasions in fact. But of course not 100% of the time, because some of them are such effective sales ladies, and by god I am creating jobs

[Major Robert Dump]

Vuk, you gotta get out of the States and see the wider world. Your particular application of morality does not work in the third world (or, really, the second or first either..).

He has been out of the states, and his critique of european food made him the laughing stock of the Org as he did not like dipping his bread in that "oily junk" or whatever he said. And his next thread I believe was about who mae the best fast food burgers.

I suspect he is near Clark County, Nevada, this very moment preparing to protest the Bunny Ranches

[Vuk]

He has been out of the states, and his critique of european food made him the laughing stock of the Org as he did not like dipping his bread in that "oily junk" or whatever he said. And his next thread I believe was about who mae the best fast food burgers.

I suspect he is near Clark County, Nevada, this very moment preparing to protest the Bunny Ranches
Yes, because I did not like dipping bread into olive oil. Oh heavens, what is wrong with me! How dare I not like a Mediterranean diet?!
Or pardon me, are you criticizing me for not hiring prostitutes in Bosnia?


Vuk, you gotta get out of the States and see the wider world. Your particular application of morality does not work in the third world (or, really, the second or first either..).
So you are saying that because there are assholes elsewhere in the world we should be assholes too?


I suggest that you visit a strip club in Dallas or Houston if you think the phenomenon is specific to Asia. You may need to put on a tie, though, which you probably do not own. I also recommend googling something like, oh Backpage+Indianapolis+Escorts and see what you find.
First of all, when did I say that because something happens in the US it is good? Second of all, it is usually a different situation in the US. The women in the US are far more likely to be there by choice, generally have better opportunitties, and have better legal protection. I am not saying it is right, but what you partook in was even worse.

You are apparently unaware that men, for a few thousand years, have a tendency to be attracted to young women. And that some men, at some point, decide that the drama of relationships is a little too much and perhaps they would just rather, you know, pay for sex. And that there are plenty of women, to include your neighbors and relatives and the girl at the barista, who will gladly exchange money for a few hours of such activity.
I am sure you do sleep with you relatives in Oklahoma, but that doesn't happen where I come from. Also, again, you know it is BS. There is a very good chance that those women you were paying are being pressured into what they do by male family members (and would not do it otherwise), and may not even be getting a cut of the money. You really have no idea. Also, by bringing your money in and paying these girls, more people will see that there is money in it, and even if you are not sleeping with women who are being coerced into the industry, when others see the money that is to be made from foriegn whores, they will start coercing women into prostitution.

You are obviously unaware of the huge, educated middle class in the PI that is making them the go-to country for outsourcing for IT, customer service and manufacturing, and you seem to think that the only way for a woman to make money in the PI is to sell herself. Call a credit card hotline or a big bank hotline, and you will likley be talking to someone from the Philippines, assuming you have a credit card.

No, I am not unaware that there is a middle-class in the Phillipines, but you are also aware that they are a minority, and people with those opportunities are not working as prostitutes! You mentioned several times in your post about the squalor the women were living in. Say whatever you want, but the women you are taking advantage of are not well-to-do.

You are obviously unaware that their problems stem not from a poor economy, but from a lack of space to expand, which results in even middle class families living in what we would consider rough conditions.
So you would describe the economy as good?

You are obviously unaware that another major issue facing them is overpopulation, which stems from both Catholicism (no birth control) and their open sexuality.
What makes you assume I am not aware of this? Also, how does you knocking up women help with that?

You are obviuously unaware that they have a virtually unregulated firearms ownership system, which lends greatly to the crime rates in the country, and gives them 3rd world crime rates when in fact they are not third world.
Yes, an overcrowded, crime ridden country...sounds like a dream! There is wealth in the PI, but it is concentrated in a fairly small amount of the population. 26.5% of the population lives in poverty (by their standards). Someone in the PI working minimum wage (about half of their workforce) makes about $1,920 a year. Yeah, they have a high GDP and businesses do well, but you know as well as I do that the average person does very poorly.http://www.nscb.gov.ph/secstat/d_income.asp

You apparently do not realize that Filipinos are not xenophobes, like you, and typically judge a race or nationality based on their merits and experience with said nationaility, and they have a tendency to really like Americans, British and Australians, even when we behave like asses, for reasons that go back a few generations but you probably do not know because you are too busy wrestling with your brothers.
1. What does that have to do with anything? 2. When did I say they were xenophobes? 3. Yes, I am aware that we have good relations with them.

Believe me, dude, if the ugly sex tourists didn't visit the PI, the women in the PI would still be doing what they are doing now, they would just make a lot less money doing it. There are "local rates" and "foreigner rates" just like anywhere else.
If a woman in the PI is making peanuts doing that, her handler does not stand to make a big profit off of her, and his incentive and her's for working in that industry is lessened. She is more likely then to look for better opportunities. They funny way that that works is that when you look for a better opportunity you are more likely to find it then when you do not. If a woman hooking can make a relatively lot of money from foreigners, pimps will be much more likely to coerce them into the industry. It is not that there are no opportunities, it is just that they will never look for them when someone else makes more money off forcing them into bedding foreigners.

Me not visiting the PI will affect what is happening there about as much as you will affect Wal Mart by not shopping there.
If you don't buy, there is no market. If you are not going to do something about the problem, you at least don't have to make it worse.

You seem to think I came here to brag, or be viewed as a hero. This is not the case. I am sharing a story and photos, oh bearer-of-womens-rights that you are. I went to an emerging economy, and I had sex with a lot of women and paid them for it, just like I do with women in the United States; I established some business networks, and I did some nice things for people. That is the story.
Oh no, you are not bragging. And you are right, I don't give a rat's ass about women's rights. I care about human rights, whether they are female or not.

Save your outrage for the countries who import Filipino labor, take their phones, take their visas and treat them like slaves. I didn't make this world, I just live in it, and I am having a lot of goddamned fun
You didn't create the suffering, but you will get pleasure from exploiting it. Makes an aweful lot of sense to me. Sorry dude, but any respect I still had for you evaporated after this thread. I'll save saying what I think about you, as it would probably get me banned if I posted it here.

** You apparently missed the parts where I gave women money and did not sleep with them. On many occasions in fact. But of course not 100% of the time, because some of them are such effective sales ladies, and by god I am creating jobs
As I said, you are a hero!
Let me give you a bit of advice that my dad told me when I was a kid: Imagine how you would want a stranger to treat your sister or daughter, and that should serve as your guide.

[Kadagar_AV]

Let me give you a bit of advice that my dad told me when I was a kid: Imagine how you would want a stranger to treat your sister or daughter, and that should serve as your guide.

Word.

[Major Robert Dump]

Yes, because I did not like dipping bread into olive oil. Oh heavens, what is wrong with me! How dare I not like a Mediterranean diet?!
Or pardon me, are you criticizing me for not hiring prostitutes in Bosnia?


So you are saying that because there are assholes elsewhere in the world we should be assholes too?


Let me give you a bit of advice that my dad told me when I was a kid: Imagine how you would want a stranger to treat your sister or daughter, and that should serve as your guide.

You are staunchly anti porn and anti prostitution, and you do not approve of sex without love. You make that very clear both here and in the past.

I, on the other hand, see no difference in spending time and money courting a woman to get into her pants, or simply cutting to the chase and paying for what I want if she is willing.

The idea of these women being trapped in a prison of human trafficking is greatly exaggerated, and virtually non existent, in the business districts of the cities of the PI. It happens to be government regulated. I was not in Burma. I was not in Ecuador. There were no chaved orangutans. Does it happen in the PI? Of course it does, and I did not go to those places.

This may be the only job some of these women can find. I very well understand that. And you may think I am only making this worse by participating. Not only do I disagree with you, but you cannot prove this in any tangible way other than pulling at the heartstrings. In fact, I am making it better for them by being the best customer I can be in the event I decide to make the purchase. Talk all you want about being part of the problem or part of the solution. That's real big talk, and it doesn't work.

I got propositioned EVERYWHERE, and by women who were not girls working in the trade. Of course, you would know this if you bothered to read. I got propositioned in the mall. I got propositioned at the car lot. I got propositioned by girls working in coffee shops and girls leaving nursing schools. The poorer the area you go to, the more the propositions come. And these were by women, I am not even talking about all the shady guys who come up and make me offers.

And, you subtley call me a pedophile, which you have yet to apologize for.

And, you suggest that I have nothing to offer these women other than money and have no game, when in fact the second half of my tris was nothing but innocent dating of random girls I met here and there. And before you say they are using me as a green card, be advised that I was not born yesterday, and compared to most Filipino men, Al Bundy would be a good catch because he at least goes to work and doesn't beat them.

It is abundently clear that you are skimming over what I write. On one hand, you accuse me of playing hero. Then you tell me I could just give the girls money and move on. When say I have done this, you sarcastically say I am playing hero again. Obviously, nothing I do is right.

I have made it clear several times that I plan on pursuing commercial ventures in the pacific, and that I am also trying to make friends, but you apparently didn't catch that. I also recall mentioning that I am still in contact with most of those girls. I say *most* because the ones who I do not talk to have not returned emails or phone calls. We use facebook, skype, email, yahoo and I have an international calling plan and I talk to several per week. I have continued to send gifts for birthdays and plan on sending christmas presents.

We obviously are not going to agree on this. If you want to continue to troll me and insult me, go right ahead, and understand I will return the favor in full. Or you can just go away, which I am sure everyone would appreciate.

**And I impregnated no one
**And I do not have a daughter and I hate my sister
**And were I a woman, or if I was a muscle head, I would be stripper or a hooker, so you are arguing against something that I would engage in myself given the poortunity. When I was 19 I slept with a 45 year old once to get a summer job, does that count?

[Kadagar_AV]

Edit: It takes all kinds of people to make a world.

[Major Robert Dump]

I am not arguing this one way or the other, because both cases are true. Some would and some wouldn't. As it stands I am in contact with several who would disagree with you. One girl I went on a date with happens to be studying criminal justice and law and can help me with some legal issues I will encounter, so I will probably pay her to consult me. One keeps proposing to me and I keep telling her to cool it. One harasses the others of FB and says I am hers.

Now, if by "be with" we are talking about them using me for money and a green card, then yeah, and the sky is also blue. And so what. People marry for money all the time. If I am the one getting the hot wife half my age who can give me healthy children, believe me, I am not the sucker. The suckers are my friends in unhappy marriages with women who look like Bea Aurthur.

Four nights ago, I picked up a 22 year old in my hotel bar and didn't pay her a cent. In fact, I was on FB shortly after bragging to one of my Org friends about it, amazed that is was free sans a few drinks. Would be great if he would chime in here. So please, all this talk of me "not having it" is comical. I've got it, I just usually don't feel like using it. I am sure there are uglier people than me in the world



The idea that the Filipino women would be appalled by me is laughable if you consider not only some of the western blokes they marry, but also the slim pickins of quality Filipino men. Throw in the fact that many of them blindly worship our culture and it is a no-brainer.

Did we miss the part where I picked girls up outside of the bars? Did we miss the part where they initiated it? Did we miss the part where they left work early and sought me out? Did we miss the part about the behaviors I saw/heard of regarding other visitors and how a modicum of respect goes a long way?

I am not sure why I am defending myself, as it makes it look like I am seeking validation. Were I seeking that, I could have just posted photos with no stories and lied and said I picked all those girls up in a disco. I am trying to be honest.

** Actually, I know why I am responding. It's because I am trying to finish the other chapters and am sitting at the computer, so I see every time someone says something

[Fragony]

You are staunchly anti porn and anti prostitution, and you do not approve of sex without love. You make that very clear both here and in the past.

I, on the other hand, see no difference in spending time and money courting a woman to get into her pants, or simply cutting to the chase and paying for what I want if she is willing.

The idea of these women being trapped in a prison of human trafficking is greatly exaggerated, and virtually non existent, in the business districts of the cities of the PI. It happens to be government regulated. I was not in Burma. I was not in Ecuador. There were no chaved orangutans. Does it happen in the PI? Of course it does, and I did not go to those places.

This may be the only job some of these women can find. I very well understand that. And you may think I am only making this worse by participating. Not only do I disagree with you, but you cannot prove this in any tangible way other than pulling at the heartstrings. In fact, I am making it better for them by being the best customer I can be in the event I decide to make the purchase. Talk all you want about being part of the problem or part of the solution. That's real big talk, and it doesn't work.

I got propositioned EVERYWHERE, and by women who were not girls working in the trade. Of course, you would know this if you bothered to read. I got propositioned in the mall. I got propositioned at the car lot. I got propositioned by girls working in coffee shops and girls leaving nursing schools. The poorer the area you go to, the more the propositions come. And these were by women, I am not even talking about all the shady guys who come up and make me offers.

And, you subtley call me a pedophile, which you have yet to apologize for.

And, you suggest that I have nothing to offer these women other than money and have no game, when in fact the second half of my tris was nothing but innocent dating of random girls I met here and there. And before you say they are using me as a green card, be advised that I was not born yesterday, and compared to most Filipino men, Al Bundy would be a good catch because he at least goes to work and doesn't beat them.

It is abundently clear that you are skimming over what I write. On one hand, you accuse me of playing hero. Then you tell me I could just give the girls money and move on. When say I have done this, you sarcastically say I am playing hero again. Obviously, nothing I do is right.

I have made it clear several times that I plan on pursuing commercial ventures in the pacific, and that I am also trying to make friends, but you apparently didn't catch that. I also recall mentioning that I am still in contact with most of those girls. I say *most* because the ones who I do not talk to have not returned emails or phone calls. We use facebook, skype, email, yahoo and I have an international calling plan and I talk to several per week. I have continued to send gifts for birthdays and plan on sending christmas presents.

We obviously are not going to agree on this. If you want to continue to troll me and insult me, go right ahead, and understand I will return the favor in full. Or you can just go away, which I am sure everyone would appreciate.

**And I impregnated no one
**And I do not have a daughter and I hate my sister
**And were I a woman, or if I was a muscle head, I would be stripper or a hooker, so you are arguing against something that I would engage in myself given the poortunity. When I was 19 I slept with a 45 year old once to get a summer job, does that count?

Got to make a case for Vuk, where you are right now is a sex destination for people looking for it. I trust you on being a decent person but a lot of these girls want something in return and it just could be that you let them down there. I am sure you are a handsome guy but Vuk isn't all that far off probably. It's a sex haven for people with tendencies, you are being too harsh on him, you just might not fully understand what is going on there. Doesn't make you stupid, but a bit naive, absolutely that.

[SoFarSoGood]

There us no way this guy is a real Major.

[Major Robert Dump]

Got to make a case for Vuk, where you are right now is a sex destination for people looking for it. I trust you on being a decent person but a lot of these girls want something in return and it just could be that you let them down there. I am sure you are a handsome guy but Vuk isn't all that far off probably. It's a sex haven for people with tendencies, you are being too harsh on him, you just might not fully understand what is going on there. Doesn't make you stupid, but a bit naive, absolutely that.

You have to be kidding me.

Of course there is a sex trade here, it is a fraction of the tourist income. It is practically sanctioned by the government. And I hear you are allowed to gamble in Las Vegas, as well.

Of course there are women here are looking to be swept off their feet and whisked away to paradise.

Believe me, frags, I understand the country very well.

I'm not going to go easy on him

He called me a pedophile
He called me the blight of humanity
He basically said in the legal bar scene in the PI it is not okay, but in the illegal bar scene in the states its not so bad because the women have other choices, which incidentally contradicts why he thinks adult entertainment should not be legal, because the women are all victims and didn't get there by free will. My head is spinning.
He chided me for not giving them money in exchange for nothing, and when I pointed out that I did, he chided me again.

I did not engage street walkers. Read again. I went to legal, regulated establishments that treat there workers sooooo poorly that they get free medical care and one of them just uploaded her pictures onto FB from a bar-paid trip for a week in Boracay, Holy cows, I am practically a slave trader.

My god, if you people got half as outraged about real crimes and the robber barons bankrupting us all, we might actually get somewhere.

I cannot wait for the judgement to come rolling in when I get into the christian matchmaking service in Cebu

[Fisherking]

There us no way this guy is a real Major.

No he is not a major yet. It has always been his screen name here. As in major dump. At the time he chose the name he was not a member of any military service. In the last 11 years he has become an office. Perhaps in the future he will become a major. (much stranger things have happened)


As to the attitudes on prostitution by some of the members here, I find them almost as amusing as MRD’s story. It is legal, regulated, and most often taxed in a lot of countries of the world. It dose not occur just in 3rd world countries. It is legal in most of Europe. It was not made illegal in the US until 1910 to 1915. Today it is still legal in Nevada and Idaho. I know most of you don’t know about Idaho and the last I knew they only had one legal house. In most countries where it is illegal it is often ignored. I think it may be technically illegal in both Thailand and the Philippines.

The places where it is outlawed, tend for the most part, to be communist or former communist countries or Islamic countries.

Making it illegal usually has the effect of removing legal protections from those practicing the activity. From the standpoint of stopping victimization and exploitation, I would think regulating it would be the wiser choice.

Moralistically I am not going to make people’s choices for them. They are going to do what they are going to do. I just prefer people have a right of choice what ever that choice is so long as it brings no physical harm to others.

[Fragony]

You have to be kidding me.

Of course there is a sex trade here, it is a fraction of the tourist income. It is practically sanctioned by the government. And I hear you are allowed to gamble in Las Vegas, as well.

Of course there are women here are looking to be swept off their feet and whisked away to paradise.

Believe me, frags, I understand the country very well.

I'm not going to go easy on him

He called me a pedophile
He called me the blight of humanity
He basically said in the legal bar scene in the PI it is not okay, but in the illegal bar scene in the states its not so bad because the women have other choices, which incidentally contradicts why he thinks adult entertainment should not be legal, because the women are all victims and didn't get there by free will. My head is spinning.
He chided me for not giving them money in exchange for nothing, and when I pointed out that I did, he chided me again.

I did not engage street walkers. Read again. I went to legal, regulated establishments that treat there workers sooooo poorly that they get free medical care and one of them just uploaded her pictures onto FB from a bar-paid trip for a week in Boracay, Holy cows, I am practically a slave trader.

My god, if you people got half as outraged about real crimes and the robber barons bankrupting us all, we might actually get somewhere.

I cannot wait for the judgement to come rolling in when I get into the christian matchmaking service in Cebu

I didn't call you any of that, and I didn't accuse you of anything. But I still think you are being a bit naive here. Not to offend you mind you I know you are a good person, but it might not be what you think it is, the girls you met could just as easily be taking their losses.

[Fisherking]

I didn't call you any of that, and I didn't accuse you of anything. But I still think you are being a bit naive here. Not to offend you mind you I know you are a good person, but it might not be what you think it is, the girls you met could just as easily be taking their losses.

Frags he was talking about Vuk not you.

[Fragony]

Frags he was talking about Vuk not you.

I know

[Centurion1]

Vuk do you pay the sheep or do you get them drunk first?

Kadagar your talking about treating women like your wife or sister meanwhile your all over the internet crowing about your completely anecdotal sexual escapades. Doesn't seem much better to me.

I come from a navy family. I hang out with alot of military brats..... and let me just say in your average group of ten navy brats from enlisted men I wouldn't bat an eye if 4 were half flip. Flips like Americans and vice versa. Flips are also little sexual dynamos. God bless their culture.

[Strike For The South]

yeah, still in SA

And you can't even buy a girl a drink :(

Drunk me had no idea why you kept playing scrabble. Where I come from the binge drinking was "bible study" and the sex was "prayers". Damn Okie


Kadagar your talking about treating women like your wife or sister meanwhile your all over the internet crowing about your completely anecdotal sexual escapades. Doesn't seem much better to me.

The both of them.

Vuk can't seem to comprehend that women are not damsels needing to be saved, they can in fact be adults and make adult decisions.

Kadgar spent years sleeping with other mens wives at locations that are tributes to decadence and comfort, yet somehow he has found his moral high horse.

This sort of thing isn't my bag but I'm not losing any sleep over it and the stories are hilarious

[Centurion1]

And you can't even buy a girl a drink :(

Drunk me had no idea why you kept playing scrabble. Where I come from the binge drinking was "bible study" and the sex was "prayers". Damn Okie

The both of them.

Vuk can't seem to comprehend that women are not damsels needing to be saved, they can in fact be adults and make adult decisions.

Kadgar spent years sleeping with other mens wives at locations that are tributes to decadence and comfort, yet somehow he has found his moral high horse.

This sort of thing isn't my bag but I'm not losing any sleep over it and the stories are hilarious

precisely. I guess in Vuk and Kadagars' eyes trophy wives are all whores and prostitutes as well and their husbands are scum.

[Kadagar_AV]

Vuk do you pay the sheep or do you get them drunk first?

Kadagar your talking about treating women like your wife or sister meanwhile your all over the internet crowing about your completely anecdotal sexual escapades. Doesn't seem much better to me.

I come from a navy family. I hang out with alot of military brats..... and let me just say in your average group of ten navy brats from enlisted men I wouldn't bat an eye if 4 were half flip. Flips like Americans and vice versa. Flips are also little sexual dynamos. God bless their culture.


precisely. I guess in Vuk and Kadagars' eyes trophy wives are all whores and prostitutes as well and their husbands are scum.

Is your argument that because I have had sex with women, I can't have opinions on prostitution?

Or is your argument that because I have had sex with women, I must have behaved badly towards them?

[Fragony]

Do I really have to remind you that Kadagar is a Swedish ski instructor with a degree in history. I would even keep my mom away from that just to be sure.

[Major Robert Dump]

I think you guys are being too hard on Kadgar. He is echoing that Vuk's concerns are somewhat legitimate, which they would be. The problem is that Vuk is pulling the trigger without reading the story, before asking questions, and without even letting me finish the other chapters.

If people want to ask questions and talk about this, then have at it. But calling me a pedophile and the blight of humanity is not a good way to start a conversation, particulalry when it is coming from a future domestic terrorist

[Centurion1]

I think you guys are being too hard on Kadgar. He is echoing that Vuk's concerns are somewhat legitimate, which they would be. The problem is that Vuk is pulling the trigger without reading the story, before asking questions, and without even letting me finish the other chapters.

If people want to ask questions and talk about this, then have at it. But calling me a pedophile and the blight of humanity is not a good way to start a conversation, particulalry when it is coming from a CURRENT domestic terrorist

He is currently living on a farm compound raising superhumans to overthrow teh govermentz and insitute a pseudo militaristic society based around bayonet training.


Is your argument that because I have had sex with women, I can't have opinions on prostitution?

Or is your argument that because I have had sex with women, I must have behaved badly towards them?

I am remarking on the irony of your comments regarding treating women like your sisters or daughter.

[SwordsMaster]

Should I point out the obvious flaw in Vuk's argument and say that while it is perfectly healthy to want to have sex with women you're not related to, it is wrong to have it with daughters or sisters.

[Strike For The South]

Is your argument that because I have had sex with women, I can't have opinions on prostitution?

Or is your argument that because I have had sex with women, I must have behaved badly towards them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Although you have probably put me on ignore, which is fine.

Hopefully VUK will too -snip-. Christmas comes early!

[Kadagar_AV]

He is currently living on a farm compound raising superhumans to overthrow teh govermentz and insitute a pseudo militaristic society based around bayonet training.



I am remarking on the irony of your comments regarding treating women like your sisters or daughter.

And why would I be against my sister or daughter having sex with a ski instructor while on vacation?

They are better trained than average, know how to give a girl a good night and are are generally experienced enough to know the value of using protection. They also come from a background where they could afford to ski, so they are generally more well read and educated than the average citizen.

A girl could do worse :)

[Fragony]

Should I point out the obvious flaw in Vuk's argument and say that while it is perfectly healthy to want to have sex with women you're not related to, it is wrong to have it with daughters or sisters.

Sure but it would be rude behaviour

[SwordsMaster]

Sure but it would be rude behaviour

What is? Having sex with women?

[Fragony]

What is? Having sex with women?

I wouldn't call that really rude, just moderatily brutal

[SwordsMaster]

I wouldn't call that really rude, just moderatily brutal

Hmm... Don't know, Frag, maybe you're doing it wrong...

[Major Robert Dump]

Geez. U guys talk like I was giving donkey punches and golden showers.

Go visit a wbsite like pattaya addicts, and see how a lot of these guys treat the girls. A lot of them get offended if the girls ask to be fed, or ask to spend the night, or eat a candy from the fridge. They haggle off twenty dollars. There is one guy with an apartment with bad plumbing, who will blame a girl for a clogged toilet and then only pay her half while faking he will have to pay for repairs. This guy brags about this.

I witnessed men walking around talking to the locals like they were scum for asking for a tip when in fact they should not have to ask.

I made it a point not to be "that guy"

I would think my photos of smiling girls in clean digs gorging of food would indicate that people other than myself had a good time. God forbid they get a customer/date who doesn't treat them like dirt

[Vuk]

You are staunchly anti porn and anti prostitution, and you do not approve of sex without love. You make that very clear both here and in the past.
I did? I did not say porn should be illegal, I said selling porn should be. There will be plenty of porn without a porn industry. Also, while it is my personal conviction that having sex without love is not smart, I never said I think it makes people evil or that they should not be allowed to do it. My argument to you was not about sex, but abuse, so I fail to see how that has anything to do with anything.

I, on the other hand, see no difference in spending time and money courting a woman to get into her pants, or simply cutting to the chase and paying for what I want if she is willing.

If you don't see the difference between taking a woman in the US out to dinner so you can seduce her, when she has full legal protections and is not financially dependent on you, and paying a woman who for all you know has no choice in her line of work (thanks to what you and people like you do) to sexually pleasure you so she can put food on the table, then you are really blinding yourself.

The idea of these women being trapped in a prison of human trafficking is greatly exaggerated, and virtually non existent, in the business districts of the cities of the PI. It happens to be government regulated. I was not in Burma. I was not in Ecuador. There were no chaved orangutans. Does it happen in the PI? Of course it does, and I did not go to those places.

This may be the only job some of these women can find. I very well understand that. And you may think I am only making this worse by participating. Not only do I disagree with you, but you cannot prove this in any tangible way other than pulling at the heartstrings. In fact, I am making it better for them by being the best customer I can be in the event I decide to make the purchase. Talk all you want about being part of the problem or part of the solution. That's real big talk, and it doesn't work.
Me pulling at heartstrings? "I am giving these women more money than they have seen in their lives because I am such a nice little pervert!"
Me pulling at heartstrings? lol


I got propositioned EVERYWHERE, and by women who were not girls working in the trade. Of course, you would know this if you bothered to read. I got propositioned in the mall. I got propositioned at the car lot. I got propositioned by girls working in coffee shops and girls leaving nursing schools. The poorer the area you go to, the more the propositions come. And these were by women, I am not even talking about all the shady guys who come up and make me offers.
So what? Do you want a pat on the back?
And, you subtley call me a pedophile, which you have yet to apologize for.
No offense man, but you have said a lot of pretty shitty things about me on this forum and never offered up an apology. Yeah, I insinuated you were a pedo because you disgusted me. No, I don't think you probably really are, but the whole "I have dealt with this before." thing doesn't do you any favors.

And, you suggest that I have nothing to offer these women other than money and have no game, when in fact the second half of my tris was nothing but innocent dating of random girls I met here and there. And before you say they are using me as a green card, be advised that I was not born yesterday, and compared to most Filipino men, Al Bundy would be a good catch because he at least goes to work and doesn't beat them.
No, that is not what I suggest. I don't care how handsome you are/think you are, or how well endowed you are/think you are. The point is that if you were not an American they thought they could get something monetary out of, and you were of their social class and lived there, you would not be getting a 1/100 as lucky as you were. And justifying it by saying that other people are worse to them than you is not exactly that great of a justification.
It is abundently clear that you are skimming over what I write. On one hand, you accuse me of playing hero. Then you tell me I could just give the girls money and move on. When say I have done this, you sarcastically say I am playing hero again. Obviously, nothing I do is right.
No, I actually had read all of your posts in full before responding. I did not ridicule you for playing hero. I ridiculed you for taking advantage of people and thinking you were a hero. If you wanted to just help people and think you were a hero, I would have no problem with that. The thing is though that you go over there and sleep with a bunch of desperate women (as you yourself just admitted above) who are sleeping with you for money, and then think yourself a hero.

I have made it clear several times that I plan on pursuing commercial ventures in the pacific, and that I am also trying to make friends, but you apparently didn't catch that. I also recall mentioning that I am still in contact with most of those girls. I say *most* because the ones who I do not talk to have not returned emails or phone calls. We use facebook, skype, email, yahoo and I have an international calling plan and I talk to several per week. I have continued to send gifts for birthdays and plan on sending christmas presents.
I did catch that, but it is irrelevant. It is good that you are staying in contact with them, but that still doesn't mean that what you did was right.
We obviously are not going to agree on this. If you want to continue to troll me and insult me, go right ahead, and understand I will return the favor in full. Or you can just go away, which I am sure everyone would appreciate.
I am not trolling you man, I am completely serious. I'll be polite to you if you be polite to me.
**And I impregnated no one
**And I do not have a daughter and I hate my sister
**And were I a woman, or if I was a muscle head, I would be stripper or a hooker, so you are arguing against something that I would engage in myself given the poortunity. When I was 19 I slept with a 45 year old once to get a summer job, does that count?
Whatever you say.


I am not arguing this one way or the other, because both cases are true. Some would and some wouldn't. As it stands I am in contact with several who would disagree with you. One girl I went on a date with happens to be studying criminal justice and law and can help me with some legal issues I will encounter, so I will probably pay her to consult me. One keeps proposing to me and I keep telling her to cool it. One harasses the others of FB and says I am hers.

Now, if by "be with" we are talking about them using me for money and a green card, then yeah, and the sky is also blue. And so what. People marry for money all the time. If I am the one getting the hot wife half my age who can give me healthy children, believe me, I am not the sucker. The suckers are my friends in unhappy marriages with women who look like Bea Aurthur.

Four nights ago, I picked up a 22 year old in my hotel bar and didn't pay her a cent. In fact, I was on FB shortly after bragging to one of my Org friends about it, amazed that is was free sans a few drinks. Would be great if he would chime in here. So please, all this talk of me "not having it" is comical. I've got it, I just usually don't feel like using it. I am sure there are uglier people than me in the world



The idea that the Filipino women would be appalled by me is laughable if you consider not only some of the western blokes they marry, but also the slim pickins of quality Filipino men. Throw in the fact that many of them blindly worship our culture and it is a no-brainer.

Did we miss the part where I picked girls up outside of the bars? Did we miss the part where they initiated it? Did we miss the part where they left work early and sought me out? Did we miss the part about the behaviors I saw/heard of regarding other visitors and how a modicum of respect goes a long way?

I am not sure why I am defending myself, as it makes it look like I am seeking validation. Were I seeking that, I could have just posted photos with no stories and lied and said I picked all those girls up in a disco. I am trying to be honest.

** Actually, I know why I am responding. It's because I am trying to finish the other chapters and am sitting at the computer, so I see every time someone says something
I don't give a shite if you 'have it' or not. I was never arguing about whether you were hot or not, because frankly, I could not give a damn. Stop being so insecure man. Whether you are hot or not, that still has no effect on you exploiting people in the sex tourism industry.


You have to be kidding me.

Of course there is a sex trade here, it is a fraction of the tourist income. It is practically sanctioned by the government. And I hear you are allowed to gamble in Las Vegas, as well.

Of course there are women here are looking to be swept off their feet and whisked away to paradise.

Believe me, frags, I understand the country very well.

I'm not going to go easy on him

He called me a pedophile You have hardly been kind to me in other threads man, so quit being a crybaby.
He called me the blight of humanity You were acting like one, so get over it.
He basically said in the legal bar scene in the PI it is not okay, but in the illegal bar scene in the states its not so bad because the women have other choices, which incidentally contradicts why he thinks adult entertainment should not be legal, because the women are all victims and didn't get there by free will. My head is spinning. I actually never said that. I said both were bad, but one was worse.
He chided me for not giving them money in exchange for nothing, and when I pointed out that I did, he chided me again. No, I didn't. I said that you thinking you were a hero for helping some while exploiting others was hypocritical, and that it didn't make you a hero. I would have no problem if all you did was give all the girls some money.

I did not engage street walkers. Read again. I went to legal, regulated establishments that treat there workers sooooo poorly that they get free medical care and one of them just uploaded her pictures onto FB from a bar-paid trip for a week in Boracay, Holy cows, I am practically a slave trader.



Vuk do you pay the sheep or do you get them drunk first?
Your ma's not a sheep Cent, she is an old goat! Sheep don't have beards.



And you can't even buy a girl a drink :(

Drunk me had no idea why you kept playing scrabble. Where I come from the binge drinking was "bible study" and the sex was "prayers". Damn Okie

The both of them.

Vuk can't seem to comprehend that women are not damsels needing to be saved, they can in fact be adults and make adult decisions.
I never said that Strike. Black men in the old South and white men in the old North were not damsels that needed saving, and were adults capable of making adult decisions. There still were being exploited. It is not an insult to someone to say that they are being exploited. Anyone, male or femal can be exploited.


precisely. I guess in Vuk and Kadagars' eyes trophy wives are all whores and prostitutes as well and their husbands are scum.
No, my selfproclaimed brat, it is a completely diff animal. 'Trophy wives' have a choice.

[Vuk]

I think you guys are being too hard on Kadgar. He is echoing that Vuk's concerns are somewhat legitimate, which they would be. The problem is that Vuk is pulling the trigger without reading the story, before asking questions, and without even letting me finish the other chapters.

If people want to ask questions and talk about this, then have at it. But calling me a pedophile and the blight of humanity is not a good way to start a conversation, particulalry when it is coming from a future domestic terrorist
A future domestic terrorist? Wow, lol. And you get bent out of shape because I insinuate from what you posted that you may be a pedo. (and even you have to admit that you did not do yourself many favors in that post)
Did I jump the gun with my criticisms? I don't think so. You posted quite enough for me to form an opinion on what I had read. I am sorry if you think it is too harsh, but frankly, I think you are just grasping at straws to justify a pretty unethical thing you did.


He is currently living on a farm compound raising superhumans to overthrow teh govermentz and insitute a pseudo militaristic society based around bayonet training.



I am remarking on the irony of your comments regarding treating women like your sisters or daughter.

Simple things for simple minds. Some people are easily amused. And I never said you should treat women like your sisters and daughter, I said you should treat them how you would want a stranger to treat you female family members. I guess when your daddy is an Admiral, it is not that important to learn how to read.


Should I point out the obvious flaw in Vuk's argument and say that while it is perfectly healthy to want to have sex with women you're not related to, it is wrong to have it with daughters or sisters.
Reading is not your strong point either I see.


Geez. U guys talk like I was giving donkey punches and golden showers.

Go visit a wbsite like pattaya addicts, and see how a lot of these guys treat the girls. A lot of them get offended if the girls ask to be fed, or ask to spend the night, or eat a candy from the fridge. They haggle off twenty dollars. There is one guy with an apartment with bad plumbing, who will blame a girl for a clogged toilet and then only pay her half while faking he will have to pay for repairs. This guy brags about this.

I witnessed men walking around talking to the locals like they were scum for asking for a tip when in fact they should not have to ask.

I made it a point not to be "that guy"

I would think my photos of smiling girls in clean digs gorging of food would indicate that people other than myself had a good time. God forbid they get a customer/date who doesn't treat them like dirt
Saying that other people treat them worse than you do does not make you a hero, nor does it absolve you of guilt for participating in the industry.
Say you make these women's lives better. You still encourage others to join the industry or force others into it, who will be treated badly by the majority of their clients. So how do you improve the situation in the PI on a whole?
You obviously are determined to believe what you want to believe, and I disagree with you strongly. Honestly though, I think at this point we have both said all we have to say, and it would be best if we agree to disagree on this.

[Vladimir]

Somebody's hungry! Who shall feed him this time?

[Vuk]

Somebody's hungry! Who shall feed him this time?

Yes, if you disagree with me you are a holy crusader! If I disagree with you I am a troll. You should work for MSNBC

[Montmorency]

Trophy wives have just as much choice as these sex trade workers, Vuk. Anyway, they are primarily dancers, waitresses, and bar-maid types - why do you assume they are desperate? Do you dispute MRD's assertion on Philippine attitudes to sex? Do you counterclaim that sex for money is considered a dirty and shameful last resort in the Philippines? Are you basing this off The Scarlet Letter or something like that?

You will have to do better if you wish to convince the Major's devoted readers that your calls of "unethical" behavior aren't just bizarre.


Saying that other people treat them worse than you do does not make you a hero, nor does it absolve you of guilt for participating in the industry.

That's funny stuff. But yes, treating someone "well" is technically the equivalent of not treating someone as badly as others.

[Beskar]

This thread is split from the original to keep the other one on-topic. Feel free to discuss the objections to the sex trade in here.

Also, calm the personal attacks.

[Kadagar_AV]

I'm still interested in why Centurion1 think a guy who have had multiple sexual partners would be less allowed to be heard in matters of prostitution or how to treat a woman?

So Centurion1, how many girls can a guy have sex with in your opinion, and still be allowed to talk about prostitution?

Same goes for how to treat a woman, how many girls can I have done before not having a say in how to treat women?

I find your attacks absolutely ridiculous, to be honest. But go ahed and defend them, I am listening...

[Centurion1]

I'm still interested in why Centurion1 think a guy who have had multiple sexual partners would be less allowed to be heard in matters of prostitution or how to treat a woman?

So Centurion1, how many girls can a guy have sex with in your opinion, and still be allowed to talk about prostitution?

Same goes for how to treat a woman, how many girls can I have done before not having a say in how to treat women?

I find your attacks absolutely ridiculous, to be honest. But go ahed and defend them, I am listening...

You are more than welcome too if I said you couldn't I wouldn't involve myself in this discussion either. There is nothing wrong with having multiple sexual partners I would encourage it. My point being that based on your comments in the past you aren't exactly speaking from the high ground in terms of treating women like your sisters or mother. That's all your views on prostitution are no less legitimate than anyone else. Personally I don't like prostitution will never engage in it and find it distasteful. However, I also recognize the beast that is the Philippines. What seems to be of issue here is that so few of you have any idea what the Philippines are actually like. I would suggest that before you attack MRD for what he did you find out what PI is really like.



Simple things for simple minds. Some people are easily amused. And I never said you should treat women like your sisters and daughter, I said you should treat them how you would want a stranger to treat you female family members. I guess when your daddy is an Admiral, it is not that important to learn how to read.

Sigh

First of all my father was not an admiral. Do you have any idea what it is like to be from a military family? You don't. To have your father gone for 6 months at a time, to live in absolute nightmares like PI or Bahrain or worse and then to top it all off having to worry about them dying. But naw entitled old me hasn't had to worry about anything ever in my life. Have some damned respect. You can attack me but don't use my veteran father to do it,

[Greyblades]

This is not ending well...

[Major Robert Dump]

If you don't see the difference between taking a woman in the US out to dinner so you can seduce her, when she has full legal protections and is not financially dependent on you, and paying a woman who for all you know has no choice in her line of work (thanks to what you and people like you do) to sexually pleasure you so she can put food on the table, then you are really blinding yourself.

Dear Vuk,

Women in the Philippines legally, who are working at legal establishments, do have full legal protections, whereas I, the Gringo from America, have none. In fact, in the event of a dispute over things such as bills at bars, payments to bar girls, and taxi disputes, the foreigner is always wrong and will always end up paying, extorted or in jail. Yet time and time again you refuse to accept that I was in a legal business, and seem to think that I was in a thatch brothel in an alley in Cambodia. What, exactly is the malfunction?

Furthermore, Dearest Boy, the underlined section is utterly fail: So, because of what I do, she has no choice in her line of work? I think you may have a misunderstanding of how economics works. If there was no club for her to work in, would a Wal Mart magically appear for her to work at? Likewise, if I burn down a wal mart, will a Go Go Club appear?

If this is how she puts food on the table, then it is certainly a good thing that she is getting customers. And what a better customer than a nice guy like me?


Me pulling at heartstrings? "I am giving these women more money than they have seen in their lives because I am such a nice little pervert!"
Me pulling at heartstrings? lol So what? Do you want a pat on the back?

Dear Vuk,

That is not the attitude I am taking, but rather I am pointing out that I am paying them above average, which is actually part of a larger theme in the overall story, not because I am a hero, but because I am amazed at how appalling others actions can be, and because I am a nice guy. The fact that I chose to sometimes do this in conjunction with paying for a date seems to be your biggest issue, and I will again reiterate that not only were they there voluntarily, they had a good time.

I am not understanding where you are getting this hero thing. In fact, in various other Org threads, I consistently point out -- brag in fact -- that I ALWAYS tip, and I tip well, and if I cannot afford a tip then I do not buy said service a tip is associated with.

This leaves me no choice but to conclude that you are not a tipper, and you are upset by people who choose to throw a little green. You do not tip the pizza delivery man and likely say something like "Sorry man, I'll get you next time" while shrugging your shoulders. Or perhaps you justify not tipping your waitress because the steak, which she did not cook, was too salty. Or perhaps you are the guy who sits in the front row of the strip club and never tips the dancer. Or perhaps you have done all three.
I appreciate that you think so highly of my tipping and being nice as to be rabidly envious, but please, save your subtle, repressed praise, as I certainly do not deserve it. I am just a nice guy, and I would tip you even, despite my pizza having a piece missing.


I don't care how handsome you are/think you are, or how well endowed you are/think you are. The point is that if you were not an American they thought they could get something monetary out of, and you were of their social class and lived there, you would not be getting a 1/100 as lucky as you were. And justifying it by saying that other people are worse to them than you is not exactly that great of a justification.

Dear Vuk,

Regarding the above paragraph, where you basically say that someone with money and education and mobility will always get the girl, let me start by welcoming you to the Real World. Please enjoy your stay.

First, me being American has far less to do with your percieved crime than me having money. Japanese, Russian, Arab. It's more the money than the nationaility, in terms of taking these ladies out.

The American part comes into play in regards to their personal opinions and attitudes towards me. I do not understand why it is so difficult to believe that some of these women can like me?

Perhaps you are not aware of this, but in the regualted, legal bars, women can turn down potential suitors. Many will not go with Koreans. Many will not go with Black men. Many will not go with Arabs. There are bars where I will be ignored. Again, you are showing how misinformed that you are.

Oh, Dear Vukky, I like how you went from saying that the women there would spit on me if I didn't have money, to saying that they would ignore me if I were just another local guy. Way to backpeddle, bro.

And actually, Vuk, if they would ignore me if I were a local guy, than I am curious why the country is so overpopulated? Why do you hate Filipino men so much? IS YOU RACIST?


I said that you thinking you were a hero for helping some while exploiting others was hypocritical, and that it didn't make you a hero. I would have no problem if all you did was give all the girls some money.

Dear Vuk,

You have a very broad definition of exploit. Apparently, because someone is being exploited somewhere, then the woman who is having a great time with MRD and making lots of money doing it is being exploited, too. Apparently, a woman picking me up in the mall, telling me she is not interested in a boyfriend, and then coming back 2 more times, is being exploited. Apparently, discreetly offering 3 waitresses money to come by my hotel room (which means no manager was forcing them, because he didn't know), and then said waitresses stopping by to party, well, that is exploitation because somewhere someone is being exploited. Lovely reasoning.



I don't give a shite if you 'have it' or not. I was never arguing about whether you were hot or not, because frankly, I could not give a damn. Stop being so insecure man. Whether you are hot or not, that still has no effect on you exploiting people in the sex tourism industry.

Dear Vuk,

Please see previous post. Please also refer to photos of women dancing, laughing, having a good time, and re-appearing at my abode over and over and over on different days because, apparently, they crave to be exploited.

Knowing you, you will choose to believe that I held them hostage and made them change clothes as part of a left wing conspiracy to legalize prostitution and destroy the American family so the gays can take over. For that, I applaud you in advance.


No, I actually had read all of your posts in full before responding. I did not ridicule you for playing hero. I ridiculed you for taking advantage of people and thinking you were a hero. If you wanted to just help people and think you were a hero, I would have no problem with that. The thing is though that you go over there and sleep with a bunch of desperate women (as you yourself just admitted above) who are sleeping with you for money, and then think yourself a hero.

Dear Vuk,

What this boils down to is a fundamental difference in the definition of "exploit," and the long term effects of the activities of "people like me."

What will really blow your mind will be the instances where the women got mad when I did not play Scrabble with them after date. Maybe, this was because they thought they would make less money. Or maybe, they were wanting to try to talk me into a baby. Or maybe, they just knew that I had a couple of BIG WORDS that would score well and make the game more fun for all


Saying that other people treat them worse than you do does not make you a hero, nor does it absolve you of guilt for participating in the industry.
Say you make these women's lives better. You still encourage others to join the industry or force others into it, who will be treated badly by the majority of their clients. So how do you improve the situation in the PI on a whole?

Dear Vuk,

You have no tangible proof that the majority of the girls in these bars are miserable, abused, treated poorly by customers, etc.

I happen to know they are treated poorly because I hear and read stories, both from men and the girls, but this is not the majority. Most men who experience these things do not post or talk about it (because of judgement by people like you). Just because there are stories online of jerks doing jerk things does not make it the majority, those people are the sociopaths

The leap that I am encouraging others to join the industry or be forced into it is absurd, even by your own standards. Even without me overtipping and being nice, the number of women seeking these jobs is overwhelming.

How do we improve the PI as a whole? Whoa, a question? You want to have a discusion now?

Well, for starters, prostitution should remain legal, like it is in much of the world. And the government should try out secularlism for a change, so they stop over producing babies and stifling sex educations.

As you may or may not know, the parliament that threw out the US bases were themselves thrown out because of the tens of thousands of jobs that were lost, and all that money moved to Guam and Okinawa. The Country had virtually no valid plan to fill this vacuum of joblessness.

Meanwhile, our lovely government officials in the State Department and USAID and the USDA taught the PI government how to run a capitalist democracy just like we run ours (piss poorly), except throw in a few pinches of Open Sexuality-Cahtolicism identity crises and a dash of Pacific Islander Tribal Grift, and you get what they have today, which the good ole USA should have seen coming from a mile away because we had been seeing it firsthand for several generations.

The PI cannot feed itself and imports almost all of its food. It's #1 resource is educated, middle class, english speaking man power and much of them GTFO and go elsewhere to work. Unfortunately, because of stupid US immigration laws, many of them go to middle eastern and north african countries to work or be held captive for rich lazy people, and they learn zero marketable job skills.

The PI, in a truly ironic twist, made the Pay-For-Web-Show industry illegal, complete with harsh sentences for people who run them (a couple Swedes got 40 years). Yet, 1000s of women still work on these websites, and make far less money doing it because it is underground.

I have now talked to you like an adult for several paragraphs now, and it is tiring me, so

Dear Vuk

#1:
Bar Girls in the PI make more in one week than they would in a "normal job" in 3 months, to include working as nurses, the majority of which comes from lady drinks commissions and salaries, and there is typically a waiting list of future employees. Most women work in this job for 2-3 years. They can turn down customers.

#2:
Bar Girls in the PI who get western sponsors (i.e. quit being a bar girl and I will send you $$); they rarely ever quit their bar job (so much for forcing and desperation and last resort; they see having a sponsor as a status symbol in addition to an ATM (Irish, from day 5, has multiple sponsors, and brags of this to her work mates); meeting western men who have money is a recruiting selling point, and a very large number of the employees are related, i.e. sister recruitng sister etc ...... and I know this because, get ready (drum roll)

#3:
I am a Private Investigator in the civilian sector, which also happens to be why I deal with and record police officers (not while trolling teenage girls, as you wish to believe), and plan on expanding my business into Asia to check on "fiancees" being sponsored, cheating spouses on "business" trips, and absentee business arrangements, because the Filipino private investigators cannot be trusted. Those investigators cannot be trusted because they will alert their mark for surveillance, and then they will extort money from the unfaithful fiancee or the cheating married man or thieving restaurant manager, and send back a clean bill of activity. Often, rather than give money, the fiancees offer sex.

#4:
The market for these sorts of checks from a dependable source is enormous, because of the huge amount of fraud and grift going on, which is a cultural institution in the Philippines, from the taxi driver up to the parliament. It is not uncommon for a western man chatting with his Filipino "fiancee" to discover that the time her webcam was "not working" that he was actually chatting with her brother, or mother, or husband. When meeting the family, it is not uncommon for the brother or cousin to actually be the husband. This is Filipino grift that goes into the tens of millions each year from blokes all across the world, but the grift does not only go one way. Plenty of men never make the trip to the PI and string girls along. Plenty of men use these girls for webcam sex with false promises, and in return, they get false promises.

Do you see a theme here, with the sex as quid pro quo thing? Do you see a theme here, with everyone on the take? Do you see a theme here, where people are actively and willingly participating. Why is it so hard for you to believe that people do this willingly in sanctioned establishment and some in fact like it, because they have a lower average GDP?


I am not going to feel guilty for doing something perfectly legal because some where, some place, there may be someone involved in the industry who has drawn the short straw, particulalry since I treated these ladies well, they had a good time and I made some new friends in the process. There are people working these jobs because they are desperate, just as there are people working these jobs because they can make obscene amounts of money in a relatively short time, or because they see an opportunity to work some scams and some angles. If you walk into any strip club in the states, you will find virtually the same set of stories, some of them true, some of them untrue. The same can be said for someone who wipes butts in a nursing home.

I will, however, concede that in the Philippines there still exists a certain level of romanticism with meeting Mr Right that is noticebaly void in American clubs (cant speak for other countries), where very few American strippers are going to work thinking they will meet their dream guy. This attitude varies from girl to girl, and time in the job. And sometimes, they do meet Mr Right, and they do get married, with mixed results.

[Kadagar_AV]

You are more than welcome too if I said you couldn't I wouldn't involve myself in this discussion either. There is nothing wrong with having multiple sexual partners I would encourage it. My point being that based on your comments in the past you aren't exactly speaking from the high ground in terms of treating women like your sisters or mother. That's all your views on prostitution are no less legitimate than anyone else. Personally I don't like prostitution will never engage in it and find it distasteful. However, I also recognize the beast that is the Philippines. What seems to be of issue here is that so few of you have any idea what the Philippines are actually like. I would suggest that before you attack MRD for what he did you find out what PI is really like.

I don't think MRD feels attacked by me...

I acknowledge that there IS major moral issues in this whole thing, with that said, I do not believe MRD is doing anything wrong. I do however accuse him of being very much HUMAN, but from what I have read he is upholding a personal moral codex in a sick world. And for that I salute him.

I guess I have a easy time accepting it, as I can recognize myself in it.

Throughout my years I have done my out most to treat girls in a nice and fair way. Bear in mind that I for YEARS have operated in a small town as a foreigner in a rather nationalistic country. Had I been a pig towards girls, I would have been shoo'ed away long since. As it is though, people respect me for who I am around there.

This said, I have upheld a different set of moral than you might be used to. As an example, if a married woman has approached me, I might well have taken her home.

I am sure you say: "But what about her kids, family, everything you home wrecker!"

To that I answer: "I have no idea".

She might also be mentally and physically abused by a drunk, desperately trying to hold it together for some reason but seeking a release. I'm not saying she is, I am saying I don't know, and don't care. If someone want to sleep with me, and I want to sleep with them, I will simply treat them as nicely and fairly as I possibly can.

So I recognize myself in MRDs thinking... Spending the same money in the same place he COULD well donkey punch women while giving midgets golden showers, but that's not exactly what he is doing, now is it? So why don't we cut him some slack, and give some kudos for the positive things as well?

[Major Robert Dump]

I really think you guys are misreading what Kadgar was saying or how he was saying it. This has happened in the past.

Sometimes what he writes is taken the wrong way because he uses Windows auto-dictate which is messed up by his throat cancer voice box and his Cuban accent. Cut him a break.

Everyone chill out

And book a ticket to the Philippines

[Major Robert Dump]

I don't think MRD feels attacked by me...

I acknowledge that there IS major moral issues in this whole thing, with that said, I do not believe MRD is doing anything wrong. I do however accuse him of being very much HUMAN, but from what I have read he is upholding a personal moral codex in a sick world. And for that I salute him.

I guess I have a easy time accepting it, as I can recognize myself in it.

Throughout my years I have done my out most to treat girls in a nice and fair way. Bear in mind that I for YEARS have operated in a small town as a foreigner in a rather nationalistic country. Had I been a pig towards girls, I would have been shoo'ed away long since. As it is though, people respect me for who I am around there.

This said, I have upheld a different set of moral than you might be used to. As an example, if a married woman has approached me, I might well have taken her home.

I am sure you say: "But what about her kids, family, everything you home wrecker!"

To that I answer: "I have no idea".

She might also be mentally and physically abused by a drunk, desperately trying to hold it together for some reason but seeking a release. I'm not saying she is, I am saying I don't know, and don't care. If someone want to sleep with me, and I want to sleep with them, I will simply treat them as nicely and fairly as I possibly can.

So I recognize myself in MRDs thinking... Spending the same money in the same place he COULD well donkey punch women while giving midgets golden showers, but that's not exactly what he is doing, now is it? So why don't we cut him some slack, and give some kudos for the positive things as well?



You said "release"

How many scrabble points is that worth?

[Greyblades]

Perhaps you are not aware of this, but in the regualted, legal bars, women can turn down potential suitors. Many will not go with Koreans. Many will not go with Black men. Many will not go with Arabs. There are bars where I will be ignored. Again, you are showing how misinformed that you are. The korean bit's oddly specific, do they have a bad reputation in PI?

[Kadagar_AV]

You said "release"

How many scrabble points is that worth?

How come you are so good at scrabble, but yet find it so hard to spell "Kadagar"? Getting the vowels in should be easy enough, there are 3 of them and they are all A's. Quite simple, really. "Kad" is of course also acceptable ;)

[Centurion1]

I don't think MRD feels attacked by me...

I acknowledge that there IS major moral issues in this whole thing, with that said, I do not believe MRD is doing anything wrong. I do however accuse him of being very much HUMAN, but from what I have read he is upholding a personal moral codex in a sick world. And for that I salute him.

I guess I have a easy time accepting it, as I can recognize myself in it.

Throughout my years I have done my out most to treat girls in a nice and fair way. Bear in mind that I for YEARS have operated in a small town as a foreigner in a rather nationalistic country. Had I been a pig towards girls, I would have been shoo'ed away long since. As it is though, people respect me for who I am around there.

This said, I have upheld a different set of moral than you might be used to. As an example, if a married woman has approached me, I might well have taken her home.

I am sure you say: "But what about her kids, family, everything you home wrecker!"

To that I answer: "I have no idea".

She might also be mentally and physically abused by a drunk, desperately trying to hold it together for some reason but seeking a release. I'm not saying she is, I am saying I don't know, and don't care. If someone want to sleep with me, and I want to sleep with them, I will simply treat them as nicely and fairly as I possibly can.

So I recognize myself in MRDs thinking... Spending the same money in the same place he COULD well donkey punch women while giving midgets golden showers, but that's not exactly what he is doing, now is it? So why don't we cut him some slack, and give some kudos for the positive things as well?

And thats what I'm going at. I don't find you morally reprehensible for sleeping with attached girls, I've done it myself (though not married) my point is merely to illustrate the fact that so much of this is absolutely subjective and that depending on your location completely different. So rather than attacking MRD for what he did (not saying you did) we should rather look at the act of sexual favors for money without any sort of personal veil. The backroom isn't for bashing each other or personally based arguments.

tl;dr this isn't a thread about MRD or any of us this is a thread about sex trading. So let's stick to it.

[Centurion1]

The korean bit's oddly specific, do they have a bad reputation in PI?

Korean men don't even do well in Korea. Which is why my buddies and I are going to Japan, Singapore and Korea this winter. It's the culmination of everything I have ever feverishly dreamed of in a yellow haze.

[Vuk]

First of all my father was not an admiral. Do you have any idea what it is like to be from a military family? You don't. To have your father gone for 6 months at a time, to live in absolute nightmares like PI or Bahrain or worse and then to top it all off having to worry about them dying. But naw entitled old me hasn't had to worry about anything ever in my life. Have some damned respect. You can attack me but don't use my veteran father to do it.

lol, we can give, but we cannot take, eh? Let me point out Cent, that my father was also in the military. (a lowly grunt, unfortunately, so I did not enjoy a life full of salutes) Also, you attack and insult my family all the time, and have several times in this threat alone. Here I don't attack your family at all, but simply say that you are spoiled because of your station in life, and you freak out because I mention your father.
Have some respect? Maybe you can remember that the next time you attack me and my family the way that you, Strike, MRD, etc always do in this and other threads. I have no respect for you, based one the way that you have represented yourself on this forum. I didn't disrespect any of your family, which is more respect than you afford me, so quit playing the victim.

[Kadagar_AV]

And thats what I'm going at. I don't find you morally reprehensible for sleeping with attached girls, I've done it myself (though not married) my point is merely to illustrate the fact that so much of this is absolutely subjective and that depending on your location completely different. So rather than attacking MRD for what he did (not saying you did) we should rather look at the act of sexual favors for money without any sort of personal veil. The backroom isn't for bashing each other or personally based arguments.

tl;dr this isn't a thread about MRD or any of us this is a thread about sex trading. So let's stick to it.

So you have grown then, kudos.

When it comes to sex trade, I really gave up on having an opinion. As long as we have a society where people can draw advantages from sexual activities, people will do it. And as long as people will do it, I prefer to have it regulated and out in the open, to protect both parts from harm.

I really gave up on taking the train of thought further than that though, as it never led to anything constructive.

[Hax]

As much as I might disagree with the idea of exploitation of women in the Philippines, I know enough to say that I don't know enough about that particular country in order to make a well-educated assessment of the situation there. That being said, I think that I can trust enough in MRD's own judgement concerning these women and that they are indeed not forced to prostitution because of their abhorrent living standards or economic situation. Or something like that.

What I do want to say is that I think that Vuk (and to a lesser degree,Kadavar) is thinking within the context of this trope that often applies to South Asian urban environments. Call it the "Bangkok stereotype": every (poor) woman is a prostitute; every child is a child prostitute. I'm not saying that you're thinking this, but I think you're definitely being influenced by this notion. Tropes such as these return basically every time when we're talking about whatever: Asian girls are prostitutes; Arabs are terrorists; the Japanese are perverted; Americans are ignorant, etc, etc.

In this context, you're not doing these women any favour. By assuming that they're being forced into prostitution, you're kind of denying their own choice in this. Regardless of your opinion on the morality and/or objectionalities of prostitution, when you say just about anything about this, you're actually treading on very thin ice.

[Centurion1]

lol, we can give, but we cannot take, eh? Let me point out Cent, that my father was also in the military. (a lowly grunt, unfortunately, so I did not enjoy a life full of salutes) Also, you attack and insult my family all the time, and have several times in this threat alone. Here I don't attack your family at all, but simply say that you are spoiled because of your station in life, and you freak out because I mention your father.
Have some respect? Maybe you can remember that the next time you attack me and my family the way that you, Strike, MRD, etc always do in this and other threads. I have no respect for you, based one the way that you have represented yourself on this forum. I didn't disrespect any of your family, which is more respect than you afford me, so quit playing the victim.

I don't think anyone actually thinks your family is inbred or stupid and I don't attack them for actual actions or life choices they made do I? Meanwhile you bring the real world into your personal attacks. You have such a warped sense of the world that now people who come from the officer ranks are some sort wealthy elitist pigs. It is things like that which make people think your a moron.

"i did not enjoy a life full of salutes"

Yeah bro and you got to enjoy growing up in Wisconsin your entire life. I would be happy to trade one for the other. Just because i'm not unemployed and saddled with debt doesn't make me spoiled. My parents station in life is pretty middle class so if you hate the middle class and believe we are all born with silver spoons then sorry dude can't help you.

[Hax]

Also I don't usually agree with MRD and centurion. What is this world coming to? Am I Americanising?

[Kadagar_AV]

As much as I might disagree with the idea of exploitation of women in the Philippines, I know enough to say that I don't know enough about that particular country in order to make a well-educated assessment of the situation there. That being said, I think that I can trust enough in MRD's own judgement concerning these women and that they are indeed not forced to prostitution because of their abhorrent living standards or economic situation. Or something like that.

What I do want to say is that I think that Vuk (and to a lesser degree,Kadavar) is thinking within the context of this trope that often applies to South Asian urban environments. Call it the "Bangkok stereotype": every (poor) woman is a prostitute; every child is a child prostitute. I'm not saying that you're thinking this, but I think you're definitely being influenced by this notion. Tropes such as these return basically every time when we're talking about whatever: Asian girls are prostitutes; Arabs are terrorists; the Japanese are perverted; Americans are ignorant, etc, etc.

In this context, you're not doing these women any favour. By assuming that they're being forced into prostitution, you're kind of denying their own choice in this. Regardless of your opinion on the morality and/or objectionalities of prostitution, when you say just about anything about this, you're actually treading on very thin ice.

I haven't even bought a girl a single drink since the early 90's, before bedding her... Low self esteem is probably what set of my wilder days, so in any way using anything more than myself to get bedded seemed counter productive I guess.

I have absolutely NO idea of how it is in the PI, but the women I've met from all over the world would by and large much prefer to have their own economy and a loving partner, than an economic partner for the night.

With that said, Hax, I have been paid for sex... Didn't know that, now did you :p

So I for one know that it doesn't have to be all bad.

[Vuk]

I don't think anyone actually thinks your family is inbred or stupid and I don't attack them for actual actions or life choices they made do I? Meanwhile you bring the real world into your personal attacks. You have such a warped sense of the world that now people who come from the officer ranks are some sort wealthy elitist pigs. It is things like that which make people think your a moron.

"i did not enjoy a life full of salutes"

Yeah bro and you got to enjoy growing up in Wisconsin your entire life. I would be happy to trade one for the other. Just because i'm not unemployed and saddled with debt doesn't make me spoiled. My parents station in life is pretty middle class so if you hate the middle class and believe we are all born with silver spoons then sorry dude can't help you.
You don't believe the insults you say about my family? So what, the fact is that you do insult my family, and I don't insult yours. If you said half the things you said here about my family to me in real life, you would be eating sod right now. No, wait, I am sorry, you were an amateur boxer and I am a fat redneck who knows nothing about fighting...I remember now.

You bring the real world into you personal attacks on me as well, you hypocrite! How dare you claim that?
And no, I don't think that about people from the officer ranks. I was just making a petty jab at you, like the millions you always fling at me. I don't hate the middle class and I don't hate the rich. I have never been either, but hope some time in my life to be join their ranks. You are reading too much into a petty insult.
I'll make a deal with you Cent, even though you started being an *#&hole to me long before I was being one to you.. If you stop insulting me and my family, I will not insult you. Deal?

[Hax]

I have absolutely NO idea of how it is in the PI, but the women I've met from all over the world would by and large much prefer to have their own economy and a loving partner, than an economic partner for the night.

Maybe. Maybe not. I think I agree with that.

The only thing I'm trying to say here is that we shouldn't work with assumptions based on stereotypical views of something.

[Vuk]

Also I don't usually agree with MRD and centurion. What is this world coming to? Am I Americanising?

Welcome to the dark side. :)

[Kadagar_AV]

Maybe. Maybe not. I think I agree with that.

The only thing I'm trying to say here is that we shouldn't work with assumptions based on stereotypical views of something.

Do you REALLY consider my views stereotypical? Heck, I just said I had got paid for sex.

[Major Robert Dump]

The korean bit's oddly specific, do they have a bad reputation in PI?
There is a major problem in the PI with the Korean mafia. Of course the police will not admit it, because they are the very ones being paid off. Angeles City is catching the heavy end of it as far as the go go bar scene goes. Raids on non Korean bars are frequent, and they claim to be looking for underage or human trafficking and will basically arrest every person in the bar.... 12 hours later they are all free.... it's funny I saw one news show where they were taking the "trafficked" workers to the police van and they were all kicking and screaming and yelling "I am trying to work, let me go!" and two girls kicked the van door open and the whole lot of them ran away, and the police did not even chase.
A lot of Angeles City old time bar owners are cashing out and leaving because of this.
A lot of girls do not like working for the Koreans. Some say they are cheapskates despite having lots of money. Others say they are abusive. OF course, this is all hearsay and different opinions.
I do know that there are Korean and Japanese bars where the non koreans and non japanese are not welcome. You will not be thrown out, but you will not be served either, or talked to by the girls. I visited two of these places. Even though most of the employees are filipina, this is the rule, and a couple of girls I met started in a Korean bar and moved bars first chance they got because they didn't like the customer restrictions, as they felt they made less money. The "you're not welcome" bars go beyond just Go Go bars, also. Happens in karaoke bars as well, although hanky panky often does go on in those.
In terms of non-likability, I would say the Arabs and Japanese are tied in first place, then black men, then koreans.




How come you are so good at scrabble, but yet find it so hard to spell "Kadagar"? Getting the vowels in should be easy enough, there are 3 of them and they are all A's. Quite simple, really. "Kad" is of course also acceptable ;)
I type with my toes


Maybe you can remember that the next time you attack me and my family the way that you, Strike, MRD, etc always do in this and other threads. I have no respect for you, based one the way that you have represented yourself on this forum. I didn't disrespect any of your family, which is more respect than you afford me, so quit playing the victim.
I have always made it appoint not to attack your family and your physical appearance and only crack jokes about you and your politics and activities. I would be curious when this allegedly happened, In fact, in another thread I asked people to stop with the personal attacks. When you said what you said in your initial posts, I decided that it was time to take off the gloves. This is not the first time you mixed me up with someone else, just like in the boxing thread.

[Vuk]

This leaves me no choice but to conclude that you are not a tipper, and you are upset by people who choose to throw a little green. You do not tip the pizza delivery man and likely say something like "Sorry man, I'll get you next time" while shrugging your shoulders. Or perhaps you justify not tipping your waitress because the steak, which she did not cook, was too salty. Or perhaps you are the guy who sits in the front row of the strip club and never tips the dancer. Or perhaps you have done all three.
I appreciate that you think so highly of my tipping and being nice as to be rabidly envious, but please, save your subtle, repressed praise, as I certainly do not deserve it. I am just a nice guy, and I would tip you even, despite my pizza having a piece missing.
I am not a tipper? That is because I never receive services that require tipping. I live in the country, so pizza cannot be delivered to me. I don't eat out at restaurants, and I don't go to strip clubs. The few times in my life I have ever been to a restaurant or place where tipping is appropriate, I have tipped generously. I love your assumptions though.


Oh, Dear Vukky, I like how you went from saying that the women there would spit on me if I didn't have money, to saying that they would ignore me if I were just another local guy. Way to backpeddle, bro.

You seriously need to reread my post. I did not say they would spit on you if you did not have the money. I said that they would not even spit on you if you were not paying them. It is a figure of speech that means they would ignore you if you were not paying them. So how is that a backpeddle?




BTW, I never knew I was so dear to you. :) Do I get a hug?
I never said you were throwing them to ground and forcibly raping them, so I don't know where you got that idea. Maybe you honestly do think that there is nothing unethical about your behavior. I guess I'll just have to take your word on that. I do, though, disagree with you, and let's leave it at that.

[Vuk]

I have always made it appoint not to attack your family and your physical appearance and only crack jokes about you and your politics and activities. I would be curious when this allegedly happened, In fact, in another thread I asked people to stop with the personal attacks. When you said what you said in your initial posts, I decided that it was time to take off the gloves. This is not the first time you mixed me up with someone else, just like in the boxing thread.

Maybe I did mix you up with someone else. I apologize if I did. I'll have to go back and check those threads again.

[Major Robert Dump]

I haven't even bought a girl a single drink since the early 90's, before bedding her... Low self esteem is probably what set of my wilder days, so in any way using anything more than myself to get bedded seemed counter productive I guess.

I have absolutely NO idea of how it is in the PI, but the women I've met from all over the world would by and large much prefer to have their own economy and a loving partner, than an economic partner for the night.

With that said, Hax, I have been paid for sex... Didn't know that, now did you :p

So I for one know that it doesn't have to be all bad.

I NEED TO KNOW THE NAME OF THE WOMAN WHO PAID YOU FOR SEX RIGHT NOW SO I CAN ARREST HER AND JAIL HER BECAUSE YOU WERE EXPOLITED OMGUS

[Major Robert Dump]

Greyblades
I should have also mentioned that the Korean bars NEVER get raided

everyone
I made an unintentional pun when I said taking off the gloves right after I mentioned the boxing thread, please do not start on that road again

[Kadagar_AV]

Might as well share...

one of my first years as ski instructor, a private guest I had at the ski school booked me for the week.

She was the typical American trophy wife, originally from the Neatherlands. late 30's-early 40's... Well kept body, surgically perfected body...

last day, she asked me if I could "escort" her in the evening, as she was seeing some friends at the Casino. Bear in mind, that back then what English I knew I had by and large learnt in school, so naive as I was, I took the word at face value.

And really, what gentleman would NOT offer to escort a lady asking him to?

I dressed up, took her out, and we met up with her friends. I played the charming ski instructor, they played roulette. I much later walked her to her room, came with her in... And we played scrabble all night.

I woke up alone in the hotel room, with a substantial amount of money laying on my jacket as I headed out. I never saw her again. In all fairness though, some of it must have been tip for the week as her instructor. I can't have been THAT good in bed back then.

I told some of the older instructors about it, and they laughed like crazy... I was then the butt of many a joke in the ski school over the next weeks, and I won the "best outfit" at the annual Pimps and Prostitutes party just stumbling in there with my ski instructor dress, not knowing the party was on. Won me a bottle actually.

Can't say I was scarred by it.

[PanzerJaeger]

Sex work is no different than factory work or farm work. As long as these women were not coerced, moralistic objections are unwarranted.

[Greyblades]

Greyblades
I should have also mentioned that the Korean bars NEVER get raided

If you'll excuse my slightly prejudiced comment;
Its probably not a good sign that the only thing in korea that's capable of not acting like a petulant child in comparison to the rest of the world, is it's mafia.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Vuk I agree with you in theory, but you have the wrong target here. It's like going into a criticism of drug dealing, but making your target someone who only sells weed. There are sleazier guys in every bar in america. The "so what, I'm a man, men have done this for thousands of years, what is natural is good and it's fun anyway" stuff is mainstream secular thought, save the criticism for those who don't soften it with compassion and decency.

Also there's no point in arguing about peoples porn/video game/drug/whatever habits on the internet, it takes on a whole "teenager vs parent" dynamic pretty quickly. And you'll always lose because all they have to say is "you aren't my dad" and they have you dead to rights.

[a completely inoffensive name]

All these people on the org talking about their active sexual lives...


And I am just sitting here masturbating.

[Kadagar_AV]

All these people on the org talking about their active sexual lives...


And I am just sitting here masturbating.

Dude, hopefully not while reading about our sexual lives...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Dude, hopefully not while reading about our sexual lives...

WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE

[SPOIL]https://i.imgur.com/UmSeA.jpg

[Centurion1]

WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE

[SPOIL]https://i.imgur.com/UmSeA.jpg

I IZ AROUSED

[SoFarSoGood]

I tend to agree that in a 'perfect world' sex tourism, or whatever you want to call this sort of holiday, wouldn't happen but the world is not, never has been and never will be perfect and prostitution is the oldest trade known to our species.

Granted these girls are poor and also appreciative of generous benefactor - if you banned this sort of thing they would only be poorer. Do you propose that we pay tax to alleviate their destitution? Will they get money for doing nothing? A bit unfair on western taxpayers one might think.

Also if MRD is really an active serviceman I do not think civilians who sit safely at home have the right to dictate how an off duty serviceman spends his R&R. I have a few friends who have been on active duty tours and they rend to drink alot once they get back. If you disagreed with drinking would you also ban the off-duty serviceman drinking? Hell these guys have put their lives on the line for us and our countries. Even if you would not do this sort of thing yourself (as I wouldn't) I do not think I have the right to dictate my morality on others, particularly when they have seen and done things that I cannot imagine in the service of my country.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Maybe I did mix you up with someone else. I apologize if I did. I'll have to go back and check those threads again.

Were you distracted by the sexy sheep outside your window?

[Strike For The South]

Let me first address the crowd by saying this

I am absolutely hammered

Now, Do I enjoy the fact that there are women in the sex trade? No, I certainly don't. Do I enjoy the fact that a run of the mill American can go to a country and command so many of these workers? No, I really don't.

BUT, this is my problem to get over.

I think it is quite evident that no one forced anyone to do anything, and MRD took all necessary steps to make sure everything was on the up and up. From his previous posting, I can glean he is a man of integrity and has a moral compass. That is more than I can say for the majority on this board. I certainly don't think any less of him.

[Strike For The South]

Sex work is no different than factory work or farm work. As long as these women were not coerced, moralistic objections are unwarranted.

False

Sex, like kissing, is one of the few intimate by which humanity can truly express itself.

I consider its comodification a net loss

Not that anyone of us can or should stop it

[Major Robert Dump]

Sex work is no different than factory work or farm work. As long as these women were not coerced, moralistic objections are unwarranted.

And more of those jobs would still be in America if people had listened to Ross Perot.

I am considering starting a "Keep Scrabble American" movement.

Don't blame me for going to the Philippines. I am but a pawn in a global economy

[rory_20_uk]

Women who choose to go into it... well, it's their choice to get paid relatively well for something that is relatively easy which is relatively poorly thought of. In many cases I am sure they could clean toilets for ten times as long for a fraction of the reward. And it's still a poorly thought of job.

Lots of jobs have problems. Miners in many countries have a high chance of mortality or maiming. Most of these girls, the choice isn't selling (sorry renting) their bodies as opposed to becoming an executive in a blue chip country. And when they're doing it with Westeners, they are helping their country's economy.

~:smoking:

[Ronin]

I tend to agree that in a 'perfect world' sex tourism, or whatever you want to call this sort of holiday, wouldn't happen ....

totally agree....

if the world was perfect they'd come to your house.

[rory_20_uk]

Supply and demand - most women can get it for free or just go without; enough men can't, and are prepared to pay to do so to create a market.

~:smoking:

[SoFarSoGood]

totally agree....

if the world was perfect they'd come to your house.

My Wife might object.

[Fisherking]

If there is a product someone will pay for it.

People buy garden gnomes, and the larger crime, display them openly!

Isn’t this vestigial slavery?

As for the PI I don’t think their women are exploited in the sex industry. Some other countries yes but not there. Find some place a bit seedyer to complain about.

[Fragony]

Of course women are exploited in the sex industry, the Philipines are notorious for it. Not saying MRD did but many do

[Vladimir]

Of course women are exploited in the sex industry, the Philipines are notorious for it. Not saying MRD did but many do

Exploitation is also a word with many meanings.

[Noncommunist]

Also if MRD is really an active serviceman I do not think civilians who sit safely at home have the right to dictate how an off duty serviceman spends his R&R. I have a few friends who have been on active duty tours and they rend to drink alot once they get back. If you disagreed with drinking would you also ban the off-duty serviceman drinking? Hell these guys have put their lives on the line for us and our countries. Even if you would not do this sort of thing yourself (as I wouldn't) I do not think I have the right to dictate my morality on others, particularly when they have seen and done things that I cannot imagine in the service of my country.

While I do appreciate our military, putting their activities beyond moral concern seems dangerous. Yes, they could be putting their lives in incredible danger but putting them up on a pedestal and having an automatic excuse for their actions seems like it would create some degree of military worship which tends not to be great for democracy.

[Vuk]

Exploitation is also a word with many meanings.

i.e. And naturally if you get to enjoy yourself, those women cannot be being exploited.

[Vladimir]

i.e. And naturally if you get to enjoy yourself, those women cannot be being exploited.

I exploit you for enjoyment with every one of your posts; and my intentions are less benevolent than MRD's.

[rory_20_uk]

i.e. And naturally if you get to enjoy yourself, those women cannot be being exploited.

Which is not to say all prostitutes enjoy what they do all the time... any more than any other partner does.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

Exploitation is also a word with many meanings.

Sure, but sex tourism (again not talking about you MRD) will always be ugly no matter what, and you don't know what's behind the scenes especially when with a hand of money that can buy you everything you want. If you pay a lot to go to an expensive sex-club or hire a class-escort it's probably ok, I got no problem with that. But paying dirt-poor women to have sex with me even if I am not that badlooking, I wouldn't do that

[Vuk]

I exploit you for enjoyment with every one of your posts; and my intentions are less benevolent than MRD's.

You give yourself way too much credit.

[Major Robert Dump]

The PI does have a sex exploitation problem. It also has a human trafficking problem. It also has a predophilia problem. And they are all exaggerated in the media, especially the trafficking issue,

Meanwhile:
- Those problems are regulated/policed in the legitimate industry and establishment

- Only a portion of the above clubs are geared at tourists, others are geared toward locals, which proves further that this is not a cultural taboo

- The bread and butter of the back alley, underhanded sex industry are the local nationals who use it, supply it with workers and keep quiet about it. The Filipinos are exploiting Filipinos at a far higher level than pervert Austrians and Japanese, it's just that the tourists net higher profit margins so they get all the attention. When the tourist season wanes and tourism drops 60%, the local national clubs both legal and shady are still thriving. None of this has to do with me

[Montmorency]

i.e. And naturally if you get to enjoy yourself, those women cannot be being exploited.

So if there's no evidence that there is exploitation, there must be exploitation?

[Fragony]

So if there's no evidence that there is exploitation, there must be exploitation?

Of course there is, you can't be serious.

[Major Robert Dump]

Just like in your and my country.

[Fragony]

Just like in your and my country.

Doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Major Robert Dump]

Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Not suggesting you do. But in a back alley where someone is being abused or trafficked, is this really the fault of the guy legally engaging in the sex trade out in the open

[Montmorency]

Of course there is, you can't be serious.

I was referring to Dump's situation in particular.

[Furunculus]

Response is to the opening post of this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?142396-15-days-in-the-Philippines-or-how-to-blow-10k-in-2-weeks).

You took advantage of dirt poor women in a third world country for sex and picked up two underaged girls? What do you want, a cookie? Having sex with a desperate, dirt poor woman who would only spit on you if you paid her money, and then giving her more than the asking rate does not make you a hero...just a poorer sap than the others.

really can't agree. no harm no foul.

[Fragony]

Not suggesting you do. But in a back alley where someone is being abused or trafficked, is this really the fault of the guy legally engaging in the sex trade out in the open

imho opinion yes absolutely. It can't be helped but you don't have to relish in the cynism involved.

[Sarmatian]

Not suggesting you do. But in a back alley where someone is being abused or trafficked, is this really the fault of the guy legally engaging in the sex trade out in the open

First of all, prostitution is not legal in the Philippines.

Second of all, entire communities were set and were living off American soldiers only to disappear when those soldiers moved, which means that yes, you are supporting prostitution if you pay for sex.

Third off all, only 2% of the women involved in prostitution in the Philippines actually think it's good money for easy work. Other 98% do it out of necessity or were coerced.

I'm not judging you, or saying that you are a bad person. Heck, if I had visited PI, I'd do all the things you did minus paying for sex, before or after sex, but saying it's all fine and dandy, everybody does it and the girls like it, is totally untrue.

[rory_20_uk]

Third off all, only 2% of the women involved in prostitution in the Philippines actually think it's good money for easy work. Other 98% do it out of necessity or were coerced.

Coerced is different. But if you're doing it rather than something else, you do think it's good money. Actions speak louder than words.

~:smoking:

[Sarmatian]

Coerced is different. But if you're doing it rather than something else, you do think it's good money. Actions speak louder than words.

~:smoking:

Well, it's not really the case of "oh, I want a Ferrari on top of a Mercedes", it's more like "I want to have three meals instead of two".

Anyhoo, people going over there, spending money, raising the price, attract more people in the business which has an effect of more girls opting to do it and more bad people willing to force girls to do it. Then there's more money in it, more of it goes to the police and the politicians, increasing corruption etc etc... It's a spiral.

[rory_20_uk]

Never said it was. Of the options available, they chose this one. The best Western ones might make the former call.

Money spent on anything can cause increased corruption. Hell, sending aid causes increased corruption.

~:smoking:

[a completely inoffensive name]

I don't agree with the statement of, "Whether we like it or not, it is there. I am just one actor in a seven billion person play."

If MRD is serious about his restaurant/bar, that is what is needed. Real stable jobs that allow women to not get into that seedy prostitution world.

[Major Robert Dump]

First of all, prostitution is not legal in the Philippines.

Second of all, entire communities were set and were living off American soldiers only to disappear when those soldiers moved, which means that yes, you are supporting prostitution if you pay for sex.

Third off all, only 2% of the women involved in prostitution in the Philippines actually think it's good money for easy work. Other 98% do it out of necessity or were coerced.

I'm not judging you, or saying that you are a bad person. Heck, if I had visited PI, I'd do all the things you did minus paying for sex, before or after sex, but saying it's all fine and dandy, everybody does it and the girls like it, is totally untrue.

Street prostitution is not legal.

Go Go bars, where you pay to release a woman from work, is prefectly legal. It has many names and many versions, be it "bar fines" or "early work release," but make no mistake that everyone, including the feds, know exactly what it is, and they have not banned it.

Would like to see source for 2% figure. Would also be curious how typical superstitous, catholic guilt plays into answers. Would also like to ponder the definition of "prostitution" in this case, as the girl who picked me up in the mall and wanted "boom boom" in exchange for financial support did not consider it prostitution. Furthermore, there is no shortage of college aged girls living with older men, locals included, as live in maids and what nots, where sex is most obviously happening but not considered prostitution

Also, I never said all girls like it. However, when given the opportunity to leave the business without suffering financially, they stay. Greed? Laziness? Fear? I don't know. But some stay

[Sarmatian]

Street prostitution is not legal.

Go Go bars, where you pay to release a woman from work, is prefectly legal. It has many names and many versions, be it "bar fines" or "early work release," but make no mistake that everyone, including the feds, know exactly what it is, and they have not banned it.

They can't ban it, because it is a legal loophole. Prostitution, as in escorting, works the same way in Europe or America. Girls get payed for their time and anything that happens during that time is between two consenting adults, officially. Legally, it's no different from me going for a haircut, chatting up the hairdresser girl and having sex with her. Morally, it's a different story.


Would like to see source for 2% figure. Would also be curious how typical superstitous, catholic guilt plays into answers. Would also like to ponder the definition of "prostitution" in this case, as the girl who picked me up in the mall and wanted "boom boom" in exchange for financial support did not consider it prostitution. Furthermore, there is no shortage of college aged girls living with older men, locals included, as live in maids and what nots, where sex is most obviously happening but not considered prostitution

Possibly. East Asians generally have more relaxed view on sex, some attribute it to buddhism, others to something else. Hell, Japanese porn is one of the most perverted I've ever seen, but try to going to Japan and picking up girls like you do in the PI.

It is not a "cultural thing". It is a necessity based on economic hardship, not that different morally to going to some African country and having child labour in your factory, cause it is tolerated or there's a legal loophole, or the law enforcement is corrupt and you can pay them to look the other way.


Also, I never said all girls like it. However, when given the opportunity to leave the business without suffering financially, they stay. Greed? Laziness? Fear? I don't know. But some stay

Very few like it.

Why don't you conduct a little experiment? All those girls with whom you exchanged emails, send them in the next email that you've gone bust basically for whatever made up reason, that there's is no chance that you'll be coming back to PI in the foreseeable future and probably ever because you'll have to work some low paying job.

See how quickly they stop being interested in you.

[Major Robert Dump]

Dude. It Is a cultural thing. Not just historically for islanders in that region to be open sexually, but considering the level of grift and the tradition of having a "western sponsor" for financial support that ingrains it into their society and it thereby becomes a cutlural thing.

Of course finances take part. But your above definition makes it a cultural thing. You admit it yourself. Cybercafes filled with dozens of young women courting money from foreign boyfriends makes it a cultural thing

As for your experiment, there are several who likely would and several who would not. If by "interested" you are implying marriage/boyfriend, this is not what it is and I have been clear on that from the beginning. I am well aware of the grift game, which is why I want to do PI work there. Also, you are falsely equating prostitution with a girl having a sponsor, or a girl having an online boyfriend. Not the same, by anyones standards. Many of these girles never intend to meet the men, and many of the men know that they realistically can never make it to the Phil