Pontikoi Thorakitai and Srakir Martikner (Armenian Medium Infantry)

[seleucid empire]

Ok I have a question about these units. The Pontikoi Thorakitai and Srakir Martikner (Armenian Medium Infantry)

I have always found these units to be a bit disappointing. They are supposed to be one of the higher tier units for pontus and hayasdan but they seem to function like very low tier units

They have poor lethality and killing rate despite being swordsmen (I thought swordsmen were supposed to kill quicker than spearmen which is the only reason i trained them in the first place). In fact Galatian shortswordsmen seem to kill at the same rate. They have high casualties per battle, cannot stop cavalry very well and make very poor flank guards. After a few disappointing trials I ended up using normal Thureophoroi as flank guards instead and cappadocian hillmen as flankers. They have very disappointing morale aswell.

The only good thing about them is they seem to take less casualties from missiles.

Am I using them wrong or is it supposed to be like that??

[Ca Putt]

It's a combination of EB's Policy to make unit stats/Price historically accurate rather than balanced and the fixed lethality value for SHORT swords, which is pretty shitty.

In my experience they are quite sub par aswell. Costing quite a lot(as outfitting a man in this fashion is pricy outside of the industrial armor smith centers and they ARE sorta professional soldiers) being not awfully motivated and armed mostly the same as celtic shortswordsmen(eh), (IIRC)they are sort of the attempt to bring a different way of fighting to People that are more aquainted to horsemanship or archery than line combat.
They are however some of the best eastern non-pike line infantry units. Sadly heavy shortsword infantry is not quite whatone needs in the east. While their bulletproof-nes is quite usefull their Armor does not help them much against the awfully abundant axemen. I still prefer Babylonian spearmen tho, look better and have MUCH better melee capabilities. And offcourse some generic eastern axemen as flankers.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Those two units never received a +1 or maybe +2 to defense skill that they were supposed to when EB revised its stats ever so slightly. I forget who did the statting on EB units but a few years back he mentioned as much that those two units should have gotten that bonus and if you cared to, adding a point or two of defense skill to their stats would not in effect be "modding" your version of EB.

Also, unlike Babylonian Spearmen, they have javelins which makes them much more effective against the lightly armored axe units in the east imo. I have also edited shortsword values however so don't mind me though.

[Kralizec]

In unmodified EB the Pontic thorakitai are inferior to thureophoroi in every way imaginable. I upped their stats, but don't remember precisely how except that they now have very good stamina. I did not want to turn them into a super-elite unit; they're better now than thureoporoi but not by much.
Don't know about the Armenian units because I never played them.

[Ca Putt]

Also, unlike Babylonian Spearmen, they have javelins which makes them much more effective against the lightly armored axe units in the east imo. I have also edited shortsword values however so don't mind me though. sure, however If you are rich enough to form an army of either Turk-Shrimps(my mock name for Babylonians) or "imitation legionaries" you probably also have money for Quality archers, Horsearchers or cheap archers all of which are very deadly to all eastern axemen, as they lack armor and a big shield. Editing the shortsword seems prudent tho, only the attack value or lethality aswell?

[mikepettyrtw]

I took a look at this EDU guide :
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?88859-Guide-The-Complete-EDU-Guide-(WIP)

And have decided to make these 2 units stats similar to Galatian Heavy swordmen because they are so darn expensive. Armenia will be ACTIVE!

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?mp=unit&unit=galatian%20infantry%20galatikoi%20kleruchoi&text=&ownership=numidia&class=heavy&category=infantry

[Ca Putt]

Galatians? would not something more along the lines of Cohors Reformata, Princeps or Parthohellenikoi Thureophoroi be more inline with their discription?

[mikepettyrtw]

Alright, I tried changing my stats to this :

;504
type eastern infantry pontic thorakitai
dictionary eastern_infantry_pontic_thorakitai ; Pontic Thorakitai
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier eastern_infantry_mardig_georgian_swordsmen_pontic_thorakitai_parthohellenikoi_thureophoroi, 40, 0, 1.15
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 4, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown, launching
stat_sec 11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.15
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 12, 10, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 13, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1813, 453, 196, 374, 1813
ownership carthage
And was able to defeat a normal unit of KH Thorakitai. However I lost against the Preatorian Guard.
However I will take Ca Putt's advice just now, and change the stats to more or less Princeps.

[mikepettyrtw]

Ok, I just lol'd so hard right now. I thought Princeps javelins had the bp (back piercing) attribute. I was wrong :
https://imageshack.us/a/img59/9109/tgivebackp.jpg
Becuase I know Romans don't do that. I will edit this post again once I remove that attribute.
And yes, that was just the first volley.

EDIT:
After changing stats to like those of Princeps :

;504
type eastern infantry pontic thorakitai
dictionary eastern_infantry_pontic_thorakitai ; Pontic Thorakitai
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier eastern_infantry_mardig_georgian_swordsmen_pontic_thorakitai_parthohellenikoi_thureophoroi, 40, 0, 1.15
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 4, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown, launching
stat_sec 11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 12, 8, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 13, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1813, 453, 196, 374, 1813
ownership carthage
I lost to regular KH Thorakitai. I don't think thats ok, maybe we should try changing their stats too..... Neitos:
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/index.php?mp=unit&unit=celtic%20infantry%20neitos&text=&ownership=seleucid&class=heavy&category=infantry
Minus the longsword lethality. I will try.

[jirisys]

BP=body piercing

launching=weapon launches soldiers into the air.

Don't use them for javelins.

~Jirisys ()

[mikepettyrtw]

After changing the stats to like those of Neitos whilst keeping shortsword lethality:

;504
type eastern infantry pontic thorakitai
dictionary eastern_infantry_pontic_thorakitai ; Pontic Thorakitai
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier eastern_infantry_mardig_georgian_swordsmen_pontic_thorakitai_parthohellenikoi_thureophoroi, 40, 0, 1.15
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 8, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 12, 10, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 13, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1813, 453, 196, 374, 1813
ownership carthage
I succesfuly defeated a unit of KH Thorakitai :
https://imageshack.us/a/img442/6704/pontusvkh1.jpg
I will now try to defeat a unit of Praetorians. If I can, then my new stats are OP

EDIT: Ok, I lost to Praetorians but it was WAY too close. I prefer my original Galatian Heavy Swordsmen stats. With those I lost hard against Praetorians but monstered a unit of KH Thorakitai.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

It is my opinion that neither the Pontic Thorakitai nor the Armenian Medium Infantry should defeat standard Thorakitai. Neither have quite the armor that the Hellenic unit does and probably less training as well. What I did was give them the plus to defense skill but I also universally upped shortsword lethality from 0.11 to 0.15. Previously, shortsword units were more or less a joke. Now they will hold their own against spear units of a similar capability and also do well against lighter ap units which is what I try to use them for.

[seleucid empire]

I don't think they are supposed to be as strong as Galatians. They are meant to be more like standard infantry. If I recall they were used in large numbers towards the end of the mithraditic wars, but better than short swordsman. I think giving them the stats or
Numbers of Georgian medium infantry would be ok

[Ludens]

Those two units never received a +1 or maybe +2 to defense skill that they were supposed to when EB revised its stats ever so slightly. I forget who did the statting on EB units but a few years back he mentioned as much that those two units should have gotten that bonus and if you cared to, adding a point or two of defense skill to their stats would not in effect be "modding" your version of EB.

I am not sure if it was an official fix: this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?112313-Surprisingly-Good-and-Bad-Units-1-2-Edition&p=2260655&viewfull=1#post2260655) by Watchman suggests it was bad design rather than a statting error that made them so weak. Either way, he did recommend increasing defence to 11.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Thanks for finding that post Ludens! I knew it was floating around somewhere.