View Full Version : Maritime abortions
Kralizec
10-08-2012, 10:52
No, this is not about whales.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/04/dutch-abortion-ship-morocco_n_1939273.html
For those of you who've not heard of this before: Women on Waves is an organisition that occasionally sends out a ship under Dutch flag to countries where abortions are illegal. Women, residents of that particular country, who are involuntarily pregnant then board the ship. The ship leaves the port and travels outside national waters so that abortions (the early ones that don't require surgery) can be performed without technically violating any national law. Hence the Dutch nickname "abortion boat".
At least, that's their reputation. Early in their existence they didn't have the actual permits to dispense abortifacients. Publicly they were vague about it, but when asked they said that they did not actually perform abortions because they were not legally allowed to do so. Instead they would just sail to Ireland, Spain or whatever to troll the authorities. Since then I think they actually have gone through with providing abortions, but I could be wrong. In any case according to them the more important point is to inspire debate and convince these countries to relax their laws, since they could never hope to help more than a handful of women on any trip.
Morrocco is apparently the first islamic country they travelled to, previous destinations were all catholic countries. Predictably, the Moroccan government refused them access.
Not everyone over here is a fan of the organisation. I'd expeced that most of the detractors would be pro-life conservatives - relatively rare over here, but they exist. Surprisingly however I've seen a lot of comments saying that this organisation is "imperialist", imposing western cultural norms on other countries. Ridiculous statements, I think. I might write a post on why I think it's ridiculous if someone here agrees with them, otherwise it would be redundant.
Thoughts?
One big pr-stunt, they were already there they were out for a confrontation with Marocco, NOS did a good job for a change. They should just **** off we have no business telling Marocco what to do.
Agree with him http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2012/10/liesbeth_van_tongeren_en_de_ab.html#more (Dutch)
Thoughts?
Depends entirely whether or not they provide abortions for everyone with no questions asked or whether they make the decision on the individual basis. The former is abhorrent, the latter is understandable.
HoreTore
10-08-2012, 14:12
Depends entirely whether or not they provide abortions for everyone with no questions asked or whether they make the decision on the individual basis. The former is abhorrent, the latter is understandable.
I'd say the latter is horrible, the former is good.
As for the boat, I love it. And I do agree with them that success isn't about performing individual abortions, but rather to provoke a debate which may make abortion legal sometime in the future.
The more conserative the country is, the more the boat is needed.
I'd say the latter is horrible, the former is good.
As for the boat, I love it. And I do agree with them that success isn't about performing individual abortions, but rather to provoke a debate which may make abortion legal sometime in the future.
The more conserative the country is, the more the boat is needed.
Their country their rules. If they don't tell me how to live my life I'll politely return the favour. There are more pressing matters like abuse of women on our own soil, things like forced marriage between direct cousins, honour killings and domestic violence. But that gets you disaproving looks at party's as you just got to respect that. Easy to taunt Marocco they can't claw out your eyes. Marocco ain't all that conservative by the way it's hardly Saudi Arabia it's pretty modern
Kralizec
10-08-2012, 14:53
"Their country their rules"
And the organisation isn't breaking those rules. They're merely removing individuals from the jurisdiction of that country, so that abortions can be performed legally. I know some countries have tried to outlaw that, which opens another can of worms. But I digress.
Anybody who knows enough and has the money can avoid bans like these by:
A) going to a country where abortion is legal
B) find a good doctor in Morocco who performs the procedure anyway
People who are outraged by what this organisation does tend to focus a lot on that it's a Dutch organisation doing something in another part of the world. I just don't get it.
I think that states should allow abortions, at least in the early stages of pregnancy. Morocco's ban on abortion is stupid and I support everyone who tries to get around it. Wether you agree or not is a matter of opinion. Women on Waves thinks it's an important women's rights issue and therefore tries to raise awareness of the issue and offers the procedure to women in countries where it's not available. Good for them. The argument that we should remain blind for what goes on in other countries, and that this organisation shouldn't do what it does, because the Netherlands is not a paradise with absolutely no problems is ridiculous.
"Their country their rules"
And the organisation isn't breaking those rules. They're merely removing individuals from the jurisdiction of that country, so that abortions can be performed legally. I know some countries have tried to outlaw that, which opens another can of worms. But I digress.
Anybody who knows enough and has the money can avoid bans like these by:
A) going to a country where abortion is legal
B) find a good doctor in Morocco who performs the procedure anyway
People who are outraged by what this organisation does tend to focus a lot on that it's a Dutch organisation doing something in another part of the world. I just don't get it.
I think that states should allow abortions, at least in the early stages of pregnancy. Morocco's ban on abortion is stupid and I support everyone who tries to get around it. Wether you agree or not is a matter of opinion. Women on Waves thinks it's an important women's rights issue and therefore tries to raise awareness of the issue and offers the procedure to women in countries where it's not available. Good for them. The argument that we should remain blind for what goes on in other countries, and that this organisation shouldn't do what it does, because the Netherlands is not a paradise with absolutely no problems is ridiculous.
Yes they are breaking rules there is such a thing as good manners which includes never imposing yourself on others, you won't find it in any lawbook no, as that's all cold formalities. They refuse to accept that things are different there and they very much ought to have better things to do if they really care about women's rights. Attention whore's who do it safe, that's what they are, go out walking a la 'Femme de le la rue' I dare them to do that, but they are probably allready in their 99% white (every series needs a colored guy) neighbourhoods. You CAN have abortions in Marocco by the way there are even specialized clinics (friend told me don't hurt me if that's bull). But what fun is that if you have to flag a territory.
Kralizec
10-08-2012, 16:13
The organisation helps people avoiding a stupid law without risking criminal prosecution. Good manners have nothing to do with it, what matters is wether they crossed the law or not. Of course you don't have to like it.
So according to you, noboby should do (volunteer) work for an idealist cause unless they grew up in multi-racial slums? I don't know wether the members of the organisation are from privileged backgrounds, and I don't think it's important. I really don't see why they deserve all these personal attacks. I can only imagine that you lash out against them because you don't agree with their ideas on abortion. And that you ironically defend their culture because you agree with it in this case.
Yes, you can have abortions in Morocco if you know the right people. And maybe there are specialised clinics for it. But that's despite the fact that it's illegal. Presumably, the women who would have visited the abortion boat are unmarried women with not enough money or who don't have the right connections to dodge the law in their own country except by falling off the stairs or hiring some hack to "help" them in a dark alley.
'Yes, you can have abortions in Morocco if you know the right people. And maybe there are specialised clinics for it. But that's despite the fact that it's illegal. Presumably, the women who would have visited the abortion boat are unmarried women with not enough money or who don't have the right connections to dodge the law in their own country except by falling off the stairs or hiring some hack to "help" them in a dark alley.'
common man they are a bunch of narcistic b*tches, I wonder how long how long they would be absolutely horrified once one of the women they really really just wanted to help gets murdered by her family.
Greyblades
10-08-2012, 16:57
Yes they are breaking rules there is such a thing as good manners which includes never imposing yourself on others, you won't find it in any lawbook no, as that's all cold formalities.
The rest of your post is opinion that I disagree with and mostly ignore, but what rules are they breaking presicely and who are they imposing on? They park themselves in port and arrange treat any woman who shows up willingly outside of the teritorial boundaries. They're not breaking any laws or they would have been arrested already, and, even ignoring that thier actions cost the governments or locals nothing, there are apparantly several moroccans/irish/spanish women want them there so they aren't exactly imposing.
The rest of your post is opinion that I disagree with and mostly ignore, but what rules are they breaking presicely and who are they imposing on? They park themselves in port and arrange treat any woman who shows up willingly outside of the teritorial boundaries. They're not breaking any laws or they would have been arrested already, and, even ignoring that thier actions cost the governments or locals nothing, there are apparantly several moroccans/irish/spanish women want them there so they aren't exactly imposing.
They might not be breaking any formal laws but they are breaking promises they can't keep, it's cruel and senseless and very egocentric.
Greyblades
10-08-2012, 17:32
They might not be breaking any formal laws but they are breaking promises they can't keep, it's cruel and senseless and very egocentric.
"Breaking promises they cant keep"? What does that even mean? And how the is it cruel?
"Breaking promises they cant keep"? What does that even mean? And how the is it cruel?
You see anything changing there soon?
Conradus
10-08-2012, 17:47
How is that a promise they made?
HopAlongBunny
10-08-2012, 18:11
Safe legal abortions for women in need...this is a problem?
The real outrage of course is allowing access to ppl w/o the prerequisites of money and power.
HoreTore
10-08-2012, 19:00
Their country their rules.
I have exactly zero respect for national borders, or tyranny in general.
It is a duty for every civilized man to force countries to allow abortions. Human rights are universal, not country-specific.
Did anyone ever tell you that you can be scary
HoreTore
10-08-2012, 20:02
When you join the UN, you explicitly agree that it's OK for other nations to meddle with your "internal affairs", like your (lack of) democracy, your laws, etc.
Morocco is a member of the UN. I see no problem.
Greyblades
10-08-2012, 20:36
Did anyone ever tell you that you can be scary
Funny, I have been thinking the same thing about you for 2 years.
Strike For The South
10-08-2012, 20:38
I lean towards imperialism. I really don't have a problem with what they are doing but I just know if I met these people in real life they would be overflowing with burden.
The west still sees other cultures as primitive and backwards and still has the same need to bring them up to speed
Horetore is probably the most xenophobic, in that sense
HoreTore
10-08-2012, 21:44
I lean towards imperialism. I really don't have a problem with what they are doing but I just know if I met these people in real life they would be overflowing with burden.
The west still sees other cultures as primitive and backwards and still has the same need to bring them up to speed
Horetore is probably the most xenophobic, in that sense
Hah!
Tyrannic ruler =/= general population.
If a Moroccan woman wants an abortion, saying that she should be able to have one is not xenophobic, imperialist or whatever. Her culture is not backwards, it is her culture which says it's fine. To put it into your argument: all I'm saying is that the woman in questions should be free to do as is her culture, without interference from those who wre of a different culture.
Also, the woman-hating antiabortion folks are the same all over the world, and the less influence they have, the better.
But kudos for the red herring you threw in my face, of course :bow:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-08-2012, 23:46
Hah!
Tyrannic ruler =/= general population.
If a Moroccan woman wants an abortion, saying that she should be able to have one is not xenophobic, imperialist or whatever. Her culture is not backwards, it is her culture which says it's fine. To put it into your argument: all I'm saying is that the woman in questions should be free to do as is her culture, without interference from those who wre of a different culture.
Also, the woman-hating antiabortion folks are the same all over the world, and the less influence they have, the better.
But kudos for the red herring you threw in my face, of course :bow:
You're a terrible person because you believe you are right.
The idea a woman has a "right" to an abortion is merely a cultural construct - Moroccan women who want abortions are not of a "different culture" to those who think nobody should ever have an abortion.
Moroccans have the right to self determination - over here we bankrupt people who refuse to accommodate homosexuals in their hotels, there they deny women abortions.
In every society there are winners and loses - I can tell you as a Christian in a publicly secular society, I'm not very happy, if I want to be accepted in certain places or in certain careers I have to pretend to be something I'm not.
Sound like any other minority group you know?
ICantSpellDawg
10-09-2012, 00:16
Abortion is unjust homicide. People who travel to a country simply to kill the unborn are contemptible.
Travel to these countries to dispense birth control or educate a repressed population and you've got my support. Go there to kill innocent human's and you don't.
HoreTore
10-09-2012, 00:26
You're a terrible person because you believe you are right.
The idea a woman has a "right" to an abortion is merely a cultural construct - Moroccan women who want abortions are not of a "different culture" to those who think nobody should ever have an abortion.
Moroccans have the right to self determination - over here we bankrupt people who refuse to accommodate homosexuals in their hotels, there they deny women abortions.
In every society there are winners and loses - I can tell you as a Christian in a publicly secular society, I'm not very happy, if I want to be accepted in certain places or in certain careers I have to pretend to be something I'm not.
Sound like any other minority group you know?
I completely disregard the idea of a nation state, and I also disregard "culture". Hello, I'm an international commie bastard, is this your first encounter?
The Moroccan woman believes she has the right to an abortion. I believe she has a right to abortion, thus I support her. Self-setermination on a national level is nonsense and worthless when it comes to questions of individual rights. The Moroccan people have no business telling their women what to do, sorry.
Montmorency
10-09-2012, 01:43
The Moroccan people have no business telling their women what to do, sorry.
"The laws of Moroccan men do not apply to Moroccan women; the Moroccan women do not fall under the legal jurisdiction of the Moroccan men, who are equivalent to the Moroccan state."?
or
"Moroccan men and women have no business telling Moroccan women what to do. For a Moroccan woman to perform any action whatsoever entails massive dissonance and an egregious disregard of her own rights."?
Care to reformulate that?
Self-setermination on a national level is nonsense and worthless when it comes to questions of individual rights.
I thought the collective holds precedence over the individual? Is that only when you disagree with the individual?
HoreTore
10-09-2012, 02:09
"The laws of Moroccan men do not apply to Moroccan women; the Moroccan women do not fall under the legal jurisdiction of the Moroccan men, who are equivalent to the Moroccan state."?
or
"Moroccan men and women have no business telling Moroccan women what to do. For a Moroccan woman to perform any action whatsoever entails massive dissonance and an egregious disregard of her own rights."?
Care to reformulate that?
Something along the lines of:
"The Moroccan people has no business making laws which curb the rights of any minority or individual."
Abortion is a right, and so Morocco(or any other country) has no business outlawing it. If they do, we have an obligation to poke our noses in and try what we can to change it.
I thought the collective holds precedence over the individual? Is that only when you disagree with the individual?
No, only when discussing economics. In social matters, I'm closer to Bakunin.
Papewaio
10-09-2012, 02:16
If you want individual rights as the highest level become a Texan.
Communism is the community above the individual.
HoreTore
10-09-2012, 02:28
If you want individual rights as the highest level become a Texan.
Communism is the community above the individual.
I'm Norwegian, which means I'm a brainwashed social-democrat like the rest of our population, not a commie. A side-effect of the brainwashing is that we're scared of Texans.
Montmorency
10-09-2012, 02:47
Hello, I'm an international commie bastard
I'm a brainwashed social-democrat like the rest of our population, not a commie
There's a double-think joke in there...
HoreTore
10-09-2012, 03:41
There's a double-think joke in there...
Depends on the time of day and amount of drink.
Funny, I have been thinking the same thing about you for 2 years.
Oh shoo
Strike For The South
10-09-2012, 06:50
Depends on the time of day and amount of drink.
Now you sound like my first wife
Ironside
10-09-2012, 09:01
Their country their rules. If they don't tell me how to live my life I'll politely return the favour. There are more pressing matters like abuse of women on our own soil, things like forced marriage between direct cousins, honour killings and domestic violence. But that gets you disaproving looks at party's as you just got to respect that. Easy to taunt Marocco they can't claw out your eyes. Marocco ain't all that conservative by the way it's hardly Saudi Arabia it's pretty modern
Several of those matters are closely linked to repressing women's rights. One very common way to increase women's rights are to force out concessions thanks to making the current situation untenable.
And spreading this would reduce the crap immigrant women gets from their families in the Netherlands as well. True, longer time scale so not that helpful for those needing help now, but if successful, helpful for those in the future.
Several of those matters are closely linked to repressing women's rights. One very common way to increase women's rights are to force out concessions thanks to making the current situation untenable.
And spreading this would reduce the crap immigrant women gets from their families in the Netherlands as well. True, longer time scale so not that helpful for those needing help now, but if successful, helpful for those in the future.
Ok you got a point there, still think it's rude though
HoreTore
10-09-2012, 11:39
Ok you got a point there, still think it's rude though
Rudeness and hate is what drives the world towards a more peaceful and tolerant place.
Rudeness and hate is what drives the world towards a more peaceful and tolerant place.
Did someone ever tell you t-
Oh screw it ;)
Montmorency
10-09-2012, 12:19
Rudeness and hate is what drives the world towards a more peaceful and tolerant place.
This is why we need to resurrect Hitler.
This is why we need to resurrect Hitler.
You must have taken the oath, 'I solemny swear I am boring as :daisy:'
Montmorency
10-09-2012, 12:28
Heard that one before? :shrug:
Heard that one before? :shrug:
Not with these exact words but it usually includes Adolf Hitler
Kralizec
10-09-2012, 13:12
You're a terrible person because you believe you are right.
The idea a woman has a "right" to an abortion is merely a cultural construct - Moroccan women who want abortions are not of a "different culture" to those who think nobody should ever have an abortion.
Moroccans have the right to self determination - over here we bankrupt people who refuse to accommodate homosexuals in their hotels, there they deny women abortions.
The Moroccans are not very consistent in denying women abortions, I believe I already covered that.
That Morocco is a sovereign state which has the authority to enact its own laws does not mean that the rest of the world has to like what they do. Or that organisations like WoW can't help women from evading these restrictions. From what I know WoW carefully avoids breaking the laws while inside the jurisdiction, and that's all that matters.
Wether you approve or dissaprove of WoW's actions largely depends on your opinion about abortion. I can agree to disagree about that. But please don't give me any nonsense reasons like that the women in question are under some sort of extra-legal obligation to follow their culture's taboos, or that we can't help them to evade them.
In every society there are winners and loses - I can tell you as a Christian in a publicly secular society, I'm not very happy, if I want to be accepted in certain places or in certain careers I have to pretend to be something I'm not.
Sound like any other minority group you know?
Whut? Examples?
Vladimir
10-10-2012, 15:06
Now you sound like my first wife
So, have you seen Louis lately?
Vladimir
10-10-2012, 15:06
Now you sound like my first wife
So, have you seen Louis lately?
If you say it a third time he will come for you
Seamus Fermanagh
10-10-2012, 22:29
I have exactly zero respect for national borders, or tyranny in general.
It is a duty for every civilized man to force countries to allow abortions. Human rights are universal, not country-specific.
You are aware that pro-life advocates would use your last sentence -- and do -- as the reason WHY abortion should be banned.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-10-2012, 22:35
Abortion is unjust homicide. People who travel to a country simply to kill the unborn are contemptible.
Travel to these countries to dispense birth control or educate a repressed population and you've got my support. Go there to kill innocent human's and you don't.
I find myself in agreement with you, as my faith teaches that the unborn are possessed of a soul from conception, but would remind you that any number of cultures/religions do NOT ascribe to the view that an unborn child is possessed of a soul. Lacking a soul, such cultures/belief groups would view abortion as no more evil than they would killing animals for food.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-10-2012, 23:33
The Moroccans are not very consistent in denying women abortions, I believe I already covered that.
That Morocco is a sovereign state which has the authority to enact its own laws does not mean that the rest of the world has to like what they do. Or that organisations like WoW can't help women from evading these restrictions. From what I know WoW carefully avoids breaking the laws while inside the jurisdiction, and that's all that matters.
Wether you approve or dissaprove of WoW's actions largely depends on your opinion about abortion. I can agree to disagree about that. But please don't give me any nonsense reasons like that the women in question are under some sort of extra-legal obligation to follow their culture's taboos, or that we can't help them to evade them.
I didn't say they had to follow Moroccan culture, I took issue with HoreTore's claim that there was a cultural difference between women who want abortions and those who don't - rather than a personal difference.
If Moroccan law states that women should not be allowed abortions because Moroccan culture conceives of such a thing as wrong then providing Moroccan women with access to abortions is interfering with Moroccan law because we don't agree with their culture.
Whut? Examples?
Here - people keep asking me if I believe in evolution and certain members do not take me seriously or give intellectual consideration to my opinions because they believe they are contaminated by religious thought.
At work - Someone made an inappropriate comment regarding the Archbishop of Canterbury and child molesters (and Anglican priest in general), and then refused to see the comment as offensive or to apolagise even when I told him I felt the comment was inappropriate and uncalled for, and that I had friends who were priests - this was so offensive that it affected my working relationship with said person and management had to intervene and force him to apolagise.
Socially - several times friends of friends have openly abused me or my religion in public for their own amusement. One particularly nasty individual kept this up for about 20 minutes while I was trapped at the table in a crowded pub, and drunk to boot.
Is that enough - or would you like more specific examples?
Maybe you'd like the blow by blow account of what happened when my parents found out?
'If Moroccan law states that women should not be allowed abortions because Moroccan culture conceives of such a thing as wrong then providing Moroccan women with access to abortions is interfering with Moroccan law because we don't agree with their culture.'
It's tresspassing on their culture imho, screw laws. I don't think very highly of of them but I would never impose myself on them , yet that is exactly is what these attention whores are doing. The greatest proverb we Dutch have is 'live and let live', aka never ever EVER tell someone else how they should live their life. And these attention whores are breaking the law of that consensus
Greyblades
10-11-2012, 07:51
The greatest proverb we Dutch have is 'live and let live', aka never ever EVER tell someone else how they should live their life.
And providing abortions for those who ask for it is telling them how they live thier life... how?
Also, the idea that culture is sacred and should not be interfered with just through virtue of being culture, quite frankly I find it insane. Female circumcision is part of african culture, Cannibalism was part of mezo-american killing Jews was part of several european cultures until 70 years ago, killing people of different skin colour was and still is part of several cultures, Paedophillia used to be part of several cultures, just because they are part of culture does not mean such acts get a free pass and go unprotested.
And providing abortions for those who ask for it is telling them how they live thier life... how?
Also, the idea that culture is sacred and should not be interfered with just through virtue of being culture, quite frankly I find it insane. Female circumcision is part of african culture, killing Jews was part of several cultures until 70 years ago, killing people of different skin colour was and still is part of several cultures, just because they are part of culture does not mean that we should respect them automatically.
What makes you think that I respect them, just being a gentleman.
Kralizec
10-11-2012, 08:23
I didn't say they had to follow Moroccan culture, I took issue with HoreTore's claim that there was a cultural difference between women who want abortions and those who don't - rather than a personal difference.
If Moroccan law states that women should not be allowed abortions because Moroccan culture conceives of such a thing as wrong then providing Moroccan women with access to abortions is interfering with Moroccan law because we don't agree with their culture.
One way to look at a culture is that it's an aggregate of opinions and behaviour of a large amount of individuals.
But you're right, I don't agree with their culture in this case. I don't feel any need to show deference to "culture", this one or anyone elses. Like I said, the way somebody thinks about the organisation in my OP is determined largely by how that person thinks about abortion. We don't think that cultural differences are an excuse for gender inequality or wife beating either. So why should "it's their culture, we shouldn't interfere" be a valid line of reasoning in any other case?
Here - people keep asking me if I believe in evolution and certain members do not take me seriously or give intellectual consideration to my opinions because they believe they are contaminated by religious thought.
Well, this is the backroom. Please don't tell me you ever felt intimidated by the atheists bullies here.
At work - Someone made an inappropriate comment regarding the Archbishop of Canterbury and child molesters (and Anglican priest in general), and then refused to see the comment as offensive or to apolagise even when I told him I felt the comment was inappropriate and uncalled for, and that I had friends who were priests - this was so offensive that it affected my working relationship with said person and management had to intervene and force him to apolagise.
Well, jokes like that are funny (to most people, anyway) because they are unappropriate on some level. To be honest it sounds like you're quickly offended. Do you feel the same way about jokes about lawyers, Irish etc?
I realize you have to be more careful with jokes in a work environment, but I've never met anyone who was offended by a priest/bishop joke. Then again catholics are pretty rare where I live and work, most are either godless or protestant.
I vaguely recall how someone (Idaho I think) posted a spoof article in the backroom that was about Tories but framed in such a way that it reminded the reader of radical muslims. You were pissed off then. To be honest I think you're quickly offended.
Socially - several times friends of friends have openly abused me or my religion in public for their own amusement. One particularly nasty individual kept this up for about 20 minutes while I was trapped at the table in a crowded pub, and drunk to boot.
I most certainly don't approve of that behaviour, but it sounds like you just had the back luck of running into obnoxious bigots a couple of times. That's a long way from concluding that you live in an opressive society that's hostile towards your religion, which is how I interpreted your post.
...
Because I can't resist the urge, I'm ending this post with a bishop joke. Don't worry, it's in spoiler tags.
Did you hear the bishop quit his job?
He wanted to spend more time with the kids
HoreTore
10-11-2012, 09:08
You are aware that pro-life advocates would use your last sentence -- and do -- as the reason WHY abortion should be banned.
"human"
Ironside
10-11-2012, 09:08
I find myself in agreement with you, as my faith teaches that the unborn are possessed of a soul from conception, but would remind you that any number of cultures/religions do NOT ascribe to the view that an unborn child is possessed of a soul. Lacking a soul, such cultures/belief groups would view abortion as no more evil than they would killing animals for food.
... Don't ever read up on early spontaneous abortions then.
'I find myself in agreement with you, as my faith teaches that the unborn are possessed of a soul from conception, but would remind you that any number of cultures/religions do NOT ascribe to the view that an unborn child is possessed of a soul. Lacking a soul, such cultures/belief groups would view abortion as no more evil than they would killing animals for food.'
I don't need any religion to be against it don't claim it, in this I am with the religious when it comes to abortion. I see it as a chance denied, and imho nobody has the right to decide.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-11-2012, 09:28
One way to look at a culture is that it's an aggregate of opinions and behaviour of a large amount of individuals.
But you're right, I don't agree with their culture in this case. I don't feel any need to show deference to "culture", this one or anyone elses. Like I said, the way somebody thinks about the organisation in my OP is determined largely by how that person thinks about abortion. We don't think that cultural differences are an excuse for gender inequality or wife beating either. So why should "it's their culture, we shouldn't interfere" be a valid line of reasoning in any other case?
Fine - but let's not pretend it's not interference.
Well, this is the backroom. Please don't tell me you ever felt intimidated by the atheists bullies here.
I'm fair game - tell you about the love of my life and I'm mocked, basically branded a pervert, and the information is used by members to directly attack my faith.
How much of that would happen if I were gay, really?
Well, jokes like that are funny (to most people, anyway) because they are unappropriate on some level. To be honest it sounds like you're quickly offended. Do you feel the same way about jokes about lawyers, Irish etc?
I realize you have to be more careful with jokes in a work environment, but I've never met anyone who was offended by a priest/bishop joke. Then again catholics are pretty rare where I live and work, most are either godless or protestant.
I vaguely recall how someone (Idaho I think) posted a spoof article in the backroom that was about Tories but framed in such a way that it reminded the reader of radical muslims. You were pissed off then. To be honest I think you're quickly offended./quote]
Idaho likes to paint Tories as evil - which was what offended me, the article was not clever or funny.
Accusing the clergy of being child molesters en masse is not funny either.
[quote]I most certainly don't approve of that behaviour, but it sounds like you just had the back luck of running into obnoxious bigots a couple of times. That's a long way from concluding that you live in an opressive society that's hostile towards your religion, which is how I interpreted your post.
How many times does it have to happen before it's a pattern.
Because I can't resist the urge, I'm ending this post with a bishop joke. Don't worry, it's in spoiler tags.
Did you hear the bishop quit his job?
He wanted to spend more time with the kids
Why is that funny?
Is it because it offends me?
If so, why is that fun?
Point proved, I think. I'll leave you to it.
'Accusing the clergy of being child molesters en masse is not funny either.'
No it really isn't.
Greyblades
10-11-2012, 09:48
What makes you think that I respect them, just being a gentleman.
Respect, as in respect thier soverignty by not interfering, not respect as in think it's a good thing.
HoreTore
10-11-2012, 09:52
'Accusing the clergy of being child molesters en masse is not funny either.'
No it really isn't.
Oh Frags, you make me giggle like a schoolgirl sometimes...
Respect, as in respect thier soverignty by not interfering, not respect as in think it's a good thing.
the UDHR makes not respecting sovereignty an obligation, not a choice.
Respect, as in respect thier soverignty by not interfering, not respect as in think it's a good thing.
There is no reason to interfere in Marocco have you ever been there. Leftist people furiously scream for respect but will just never accept that they don't understand anything.
Kralizec
10-11-2012, 10:07
How much of that would happen if I were gay, really?
DevDave and Navaros come to mind. The stuffy they said about homosexuals (and from the latter, atheists) was much more outrageous than any "anti-christian" bashing I've seen on this board. I laughed at most of that, too. To be fair DevDave was often just joking around. Navaros was dead serious, which is why he was funny.
Idaho likes to paint Tories as evil - which was what offended me, the article was not clever or funny.
Accusing the clergy of being child molesters en masse is not funny either.
I disagree on both.
How many times does it have to happen before it's a pattern.
How about daily, or at least once in every couple of days.
Why is that funny?
Is it because it offends me?
If so, why is that fun?
Point proved, I think. I'll leave you to it.
Pedo-priest jokes are funny because they're outrageous. I don't think the "outrage-factor" is that it's offensive to christians, but that it's about pedophelia.
My range of humor is very inclusive. If you know any good jokes about atheists, especially if they're offensive, please tell me.
Have you ever laughed at a joke that targets Germans, referencing WW2? Retard jokes? Irish, Scots, lawyers, or any other kind of joke that could be offensive to the people it refers to?
Greyblades
10-11-2012, 10:17
the UDHR makes not respecting sovereignty an obligation, not a choice.
...The UDHR (should) stops governments and people from torturing/enslaving/imprisoning/opressing/generally being a dick to it's and other people. Even if it was enforced in the slightest outside of the first world I'm pretty sure it allows interference on a national level when the country in question is itself violating human rights, and the actual UDHR only mentions soverignty in saying that they aren't allowed to discriminate. (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a2)
I don't know where you get respecting soverignty from but it isn't in there.
Anyone heard about the cleric who found a kid....the kid didn't find it all that funny
Muha instant joke. Take it Catholics just like your priests take boy-pussy your religion is nothing more than a criminal organisation.
Greyblades
10-11-2012, 10:34
There is no reason to interfere in Marocco have you ever been there. Leftist people furiously scream for respect but will just never accept that they don't understand anything.
You said:
It's tresspassing on their culture imho, screw laws. I don't think very highly of of them but I would never impose myself on them , yet that is exactly is what these attention whores are doing. The greatest proverb we Dutch have is 'live and let live', aka never ever EVER tell someone else how they should live their life. And these attention whores are breaking the law of that consensus
I gathered from that you say we shouldn't interfere in thier way of doing things just because they are a different culture, I say that's rubbish. If say zimbabwe had a cultural tradition of killing albinos we should interfere whether or not it interferes with thier culture. Morocco isn't as black and white and there is no imperative for national intervention but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be allowed to attempt to change it especially when the way they go about it is non violent or forceful.
You said:
I gathered from that you say we shouldn't interfere in thier way of doing things just because they are a different culture, I say that's rubbish. If say zimbabwe had a cultural tradition of killing albinos we should interfere whether or not it interferes with thier culture. Morocco isn't as black and white and there is no imperative for national intervention but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be allowed to attempt to change it especially when the way they go about it is non violent or forceful.
Just let them be, much better. Once thet realise that they can't keep their culture it is all fine with me, leftist people will furiously want to claw out my eyes because i just want to live my own life but it's normal that lefties get violent if you aren't 100% sure, nothing new
rory_20_uk
10-11-2012, 11:53
IMO the days of telling others how to rule their countries is over. Independance means they can do whatever they want. If their actions are viewed as "bad" then we can passively act regardng trade; if what they are doing would impinge on us directly then we shoudl defend ourselves.
We've enough problems over here without wasting time and money on what they're doing.
~:smoking:
HoreTore
10-11-2012, 12:30
I don't know where you get respecting soverignty from but it isn't in there.
I said not respecting ~;)
Kralizec
10-11-2012, 12:33
Just let them be, much better. Once thet realise that they can't keep their culture it is all fine with me, leftist people will furiously want to claw out my eyes because i just want to live my own life but it's normal that lefties get violent if you aren't 100% sure, nothing new
And so we arrive at what really matters: the reason why you pour your scorn over this organisation and its members ("narcistic b*tches") is because they're leftists, and everything leftists do is wrong.
IMO the days of telling others how to rule their countries is over. Independance means they can do whatever they want. If their actions are viewed as "bad" then we can passively act regardng trade; if what they are doing would impinge on us directly then we shoudl defend ourselves.
We've enough problems over here without wasting time and money on what they're doing.
~:smoking:
It's a volunteer organisation doing this. At the invitation of a Moroccan feminist organisation, I should add.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-11-2012, 14:51
... Don't ever read up on early spontaneous abortions then.
Well aware of them, thank you. In common usage, they are usually addressed under the term "miscarriage" while "abortion" is reserved for a procedure involving outside intervention. Medicos may well use the term "spontaneous abortion" since that is a clear denotative indication of what occurs -- the body itself deciding to terminate the pregnancy for whatever cause. When Catholics pray for the unborn, we pray for those souls as well; how it all "comes together" is way beyond my pay grade.
And yes, I do understand the implicitly misogynistic character of the term "miscarriage." However flawed, that is still the more commonly used term. Nor, given the vehemence of the debate, are you likely to gather broad acceptance for the use of the term "abortion" as the neutral term that will be applied to any pregnancy that ends before birth.
And so we arrive at what really matters: the reason why you pour your scorn over this organisation and its members ("narcistic b*tches") is because they're leftists, and everything leftists do is wrong.
Are you ok, a hormonal overdose is ussually a female thing when they have their periods, what's your excuse
Kralizec
10-11-2012, 16:01
I'm perfectly calm, thank you.
WoW is not a leftist project, it also has supporters from VVD and D66. But because some GreenLeft lady is involved in this latest stunt a lot of morons who post at geenstijl.nl or the comment section of nu.nl assume that it's some sort inherently leftist project and slam it without applying as much of a second of critical thought on the issue.
These are the same idiots who tend to vote PVV, who always accuse "the left" of defending islam, but when it's obvious that "the left" is actually taking a stance against it (like now) these same idiots will leap to the defense of islamic conservatives in Morocco, essentially saying we ought to respect their culture.
I know that you were against abortion to begin with, so the above doesn't apply to you. But you make the same mistake of assuming that everything you oppose is leftist, and vice versa. You called these people narcissists and attention whores for no good reason.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-11-2012, 17:35
Are you ok, a hormonal overdose is ussually a female thing when they have their periods, what's your excuse
"Hormonal overdose?" This is, at best, innacurate on the science -- ALL humans undergo cyclic hormonal changes, Frags, even your tall, strapping Dutch footie players and the like. On a non-sceintific level, this kind of jibe is dismissive of more than half of our species. Not appropriate.
In addition, while no fan of big government politics myself, I would note that a substantial component of the pro-abortion support with which I am familiar are libertarian types -- quite right wing in their politics and proponents of abortion on a right-wing individual rights basis.
Try cultivating just a dash of cognitive complexity. Accepting ambiguities and disparaging monolithic interpretations may require more effort, but is generally more accurate.
Abortion is unjust homicide. People who travel to a country simply to kill the unborn are contemptible.
That begs the question: Is masturbation genocide or mass murder?
Seamus Fermanagh
10-11-2012, 17:59
That begs the question: Is masturbation genocide or mass murder?
Couldn't be genocide unless you were a single-entity species. As to mass murder, you would be -- at best -- only half right.
Vladimir
10-11-2012, 19:13
Couldn't be genocide unless you were a single-entity species. As to mass murder, you would be -- at best -- only half right.
Ba ZING!!!
Ironside
10-11-2012, 20:59
Well aware of them, thank you. In common usage, they are usually addressed under the term "miscarriage" while "abortion" is reserved for a procedure involving outside intervention. Medicos may well use the term "spontaneous abortion" since that is a clear denotative indication of what occurs -- the body itself deciding to terminate the pregnancy for whatever cause. When Catholics pray for the unborn, we pray for those souls as well; how it all "comes together" is way beyond my pay grade.
And yes, I do understand the implicitly misogynistic character of the term "miscarriage." However flawed, that is still the more commonly used term. Nor, given the vehemence of the debate, are you likely to gather broad acceptance for the use of the term "abortion" as the neutral term that will be applied to any pregnancy that ends before birth.
If you want to be picky, I can use "Early pregnancy loss" instead. Wasn't my intention to argue on that point. I would consider lumping miscarriage together with "late menstruation" quite flawed though, as the emotional impact is significantly different.
Constructing a system with 25-50% of all souls going directly back is an interesting notion. Now since I've concluded that God is evil in the OT, I do have some ideas, that probably counts as a cruel joke to PVC, so I'll put it in spoilers.
Heaven is powered by the unborn souls of children.
Alternatively, God almost lost, so it's the seal to keep Hell at bay that requires that sacrifice.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-11-2012, 22:24
DevDave and Navaros come to mind. The stuffy they said about homosexuals (and from the latter, atheists) was much more outrageous than any "anti-christian" bashing I've seen on this board. I laughed at most of that, too. To be fair DevDave was often just joking around. Navaros was dead serious, which is why he was funny.
I disagree on both.
How about daily, or at least once in every couple of days.
Pedo-priest jokes are funny because they're outrageous. I don't think the "outrage-factor" is that it's offensive to christians, but that it's about pedophelia.
My range of humor is very inclusive. If you know any good jokes about atheists, especially if they're offensive, please tell me.
Have you ever laughed at a joke that targets Germans, referencing WW2? Retard jokes? Irish, Scots, lawyers, or any other kind of joke that could be offensive to the people it refers to?
I think you're just really insensitive.
Try imagining being the happily married priest who gets called a "nonse" in the street, or worse the child who was/is abused.
Nothing about that is funny.
DevDave and Nav were frequently warned, and banned, for the things they said about homosexuals - so your comparison is not valid.
Have I ever laughed at tasteless jokes? Why, yes I have - but I grew up when I realised that you can tell those jokes and offend someone who's black/Irish/Gay and they won't laugh it off.
Here's the thing - you told a stupid joke about a Bishop and now I am offended. What you do about that is obviously up to you, but th decision you make will reflect what you think of me, as well as the Christians you were aiming at.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-11-2012, 22:25
Bah
you suck footballs through a straw
I made it more compact
Kralizec
10-12-2012, 11:24
I think you're just really insensitive.
Try imagining being the happily married priest who gets called a "nonse" in the street, or worse the child who was/is abused.
Nothing about that is funny.
DevDave and Nav were frequently warned, and banned, for the things they said about homosexuals - so your comparison is not valid.
Have I ever laughed at tasteless jokes? Why, yes I have - but I grew up when I realised that you can tell those jokes and offend someone who's black/Irish/Gay and they won't laugh it off.
Here's the thing - you told a stupid joke about a Bishop and now I am offended. What you do about that is obviously up to you, but th decision you make will reflect what you think of me, as well as the Christians you were aiming at.
I found it hard to believe someone could be seriously offended by a cleric joke. But that said; if someone is offended by a tasteless joke, there's just one option.
Sorry that I offended you.
Liking tasteless jokes is not a matter of maturity; there's no harm done if you keep the audience in mind (the joke in this thread was a mistake). I explained the reasons for that in that thread about Schadenfreude, by HoreTore.
DevDave and Nav were warned, but I'm pretty sure that the backroom mods have also punished members who bashed christianity and went too far. (mods? care to back me up on this?)
Unlike earlier times, Christianity is nowadays just as likely to be an object of scorn and derison as sexuality, political convictions or whatever other label you can think of. This is nothing more or less than parity, but you and others are insinuating that christians are being especially targeted or even persecuted.
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