French special forces operation foiled by villagers

[Myth]

OK guys, I don't know if this made the mainstream media in your parts of the world, but I find it both funny and scary at the same time. On the eve of the 15th of October, a team of 2 unidentified men land by parachute in a farmer's field in a village near Pleven, Bulgaria (I'm Bulgarian myself).

The owners of the field are brothers and reputed village brawlers, who regularly defend their lands during the night to prevent theft from ethnic minorities from a nearby village (theft in the rural areas of BG is a serious, albeit different issue). The incident happened because the foreigners had a 4x4 vehicle waiting for them. When the brothers confronted them about what the hell were five dark skinned men doing in a jeep on their private property, the men attempted to run them over with the vehicle. When that failed, they jumped out and engaged the two Bulgarian villagers and their friend, a local policeman who was off duty and had come to his friend's aid. Funny thing was, two of the men were shot in the legs, one had his nose broken and several had fractured limbs. They were beaten bloody, and only two managed to escape.

Facts: they pretended they did not speak Bulgarian, but later on it was discovered that they do. They have French citizenship but did not seek out the consulate. Our minister of internal affairs insists that they were "adrenaline junkies" and "civilians who practice extreme sports" and that's how they entered Bulgarian territory without authorization, via parachute, at night.

What's even funnier is that the French already admitted that these men were special forces who were doing training on infiltration into a foreign country.

Apart from the irony of having a team of five French special forces (they had diving and mountaineering equipment, GPS navigation etc. with them) beaten bloody by two burly village brawlers and an off-duty cop, I find it disturbing that our own minister would lie to the public. The French dismiss the accident as "unimportant" but what the hell were they doing here? Why were the men dark skinned (easily mistaken for the local roma minority) and why wasn't our intelligence office aware of this? Certain military sources state that this is standard NATO practice - they drop special forces as mock insurgents and then monitor our response and level of awareness. Well, if it's standard it's sure as hell news to me.

Something similar happened in 1999 during the conflicts in former Yugoslavia, where some SAS agents were beaten like drums by overzealous tavern patrons in Macedonia. Yet I find it highly improbable that two average joes and an off-duty cop can take on a team of 5 berets. It makes sense if the French had orders not to harm civilians, but then their training must be something if they'd sit there and let some villagers break their damn legs and do nothing.

[Kadagar_AV]

This is an awesome story.

Have heard nothing about it, got some sources? Worst case even BG ones will do, can always google translate it :)

[Husar]

Not all Special Forces have super close combat skills or even shooting skills.

Often they're trained for very different tasks like reconnaissance, dealings with and military training for the locals etc.

They're not all snipers who brawl like Chuck Norris but translators, explosives experts and so on.

Question is of course, if they couldn't brawl very well, why did they pick a fight with the locals instead of moderating the heated discussion and speeding away? Maybe their esprit de corps was a bit higher than their fighting skills or so. :laugh4:

[Kadagar_AV]

Not all Special Forces have super close combat skills or even shooting skills.

Often they're trained for very different tasks like reconnaissance, dealings with and military training for the locals etc.

They're not all snipers who brawl like Chuck Norris but translators, explosives experts and so on.

Question is of course, if they couldn't brawl very well, why did they pick a fight with the locals instead of moderating the heated discussion and speeding away? Maybe their esprit de corps was a bit higher than their fighting skills or so. :laugh4:

This.

They come off as cartoonian no matter what perspective...

[Ronin]

reminds me of some British special forces that "invaded" Spain a couple of years ago....they were doing an amphibian exercise in Gibraltar, read their maps wrong and landed on the wrong beach......this happened in broad daylight mind you

[Brenus]

Nothing in the French Media, even the specialised one. I know this kind of training is done by the 13 Régiment de Dragons Parachutistes as a test to see if they are able to carry a mission of deep infiltration in enemy territory (recon), and to choose a "foreign" but not too hostile country is better because the worst is to be arrested by local police and to spend few days in jail. But what I find strange in your story: Not that many French speak Bulgarian, and not many French have dark skin. It cold be make-up, but you don't mention it. I will keep am eye on French Media.

[Beskar]

Roma infiltration unit? Is it to be expected, but it does bring some worrying concerns. Hopefully the French authorities are not acting without care.

[HoreTore]

I was in ISTAR during my year in the military. I was the communication wagon for the 3-4 groups who went behind enemy lines to spy, meaning I had to go behind enemy lines.

We're not that tough. "Behind enemy lines" does not equal "RamboTerminator Team".

What's more worrying than a botched French excercise is the treatment of Roma in Bulgaria and associated countries. For a course in "Human Rights Violation 101", all you need to do is look at the situation of Roma in Bulgaria, Hungary or Rumenia.

[Kadagar_AV]

I was in ISTAR during my year in the military. I was the communication wagon for the 3-4 groups who went behind enemy lines to spy, meaning I had to go behind enemy lines.

We're not that tough. "Behind enemy lines" does not equal "RamboTerminator Team".

What's more worrying than a botched French excercise is the treatment of Roma in Bulgaria and associated countries. For a course in "Human Rights Violation 101", all you need to do is look at the situation of Roma in Bulgaria, Hungary or Rumenia.

The only human rights violation is that the gypsies haven't been packed up and been sent home more thoroughly.. Have a flock of about 50 of them occupying a park not far from where I live as we speak, local crime rates of course escalated through the roof. A week ago one of my friends who runs a video-rental store got robbed by another bunch of gypsies.

Letting Romania into the EU was just soooooo ill adviced, as they now have legal rights to stay here 3 months. GAH!!!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely NOTHING against Romanians at large, a damn hospitable and nice country. But their gypsy minority sure don't make it easy to like them.

[HoreTore]

The only human rights violation is that the gypsies haven't been packed up and been sent home more thoroughly.. Have a flock of about 50 of them occupying a park not far from where I live as we speak, local crime rates of course escalated through the roof. A week ago one of my friends who runs a video-rental store got robbed by another bunch of gypsies.

Letting Romania into the EU was just soooooo ill adviced, as they now have legal rights to stay here 3 months. GAH!!!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely NOTHING against Romanians at large, a damn hospitable and nice country. But their gypsy minority sure don't make it easy to like them.

Socio-economic.


As always.

[Strike For The South]

just send the gypsies to America

Europeans are a bunch of intolerant assholes

It boggles my mind when someone from the continent has the balls to claim they are less racist than Americans

Its ADORABLE

[HoreTore]

just send the gypsies to America

Europeans are a bunch of intolerant assholes

It boggles my mind when someone from the continent has the balls to claim they are less racist than Americans

Its ADORABLE

I agree with everything in this post.

A few more like this, and I'm starting a cult.

[Kadagar_AV]

just send the gypsies to America

Europeans are a bunch of intolerant assholes

It boggles my mind when someone from the continent has the balls to claim they are less racist than Americans

Its ADORABLE

What? When have I ever claimed to be less racist than Americans?

American racism:
http://www.radicalcartography.net/index.html?chicagodots

My racism:
Not only am I happy with how the map look, as it shows that people vote with their feet and actually don't want multuculturalism around themselves. But I also personally believe you will find it harder to educate in blue dot areas. 20% harder even. *based on the old IQ map of the world*


HoreTore, yeah... socioeconomic factors explain why gypsies generally fail in society while jews generally succeed... Has nothing to do with cultural traits. Right?

[Strike For The South]

lol, Where Americans see 3 ethnic groups, Europeans would see 30.

Self segragation is a problem , poverty has as much to do with it any other factor and younger people tend to be more diverse. It also takes a while for old habits to die.

Im not even going to talk about IQ because its not a valid measure of anything

[HoreTore]

HoreTore, yeah... socioeconomic factors explain why gypsies generally fail in society while jews generally succeed... Has nothing to do with cultural traits. Right?

That's indeed what I said, yes, I see your reading skills have increased ~;)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Socio-economic.


As always.


Of course you know no actual Gypsies.

If you did you'd appreciate that they don't consider themselves a part of our society, and a minority take this to the extreme of disregarding our laws and taking anything not nailed down.

[HoreTore]

lol, Where Americans see 3 ethnic groups, Europeans would see 30.

Self segragation is a problem , poverty has as much to do with it any other factor and younger people tend to be more diverse. It also takes a while for old habits to die.

Im not even going to talk about IQ because its not a valid measure of anything

Indeed, and you don't get poorer than the Roma areas of Rumenia, etc. And of course, the states there actively try their best to keep them poor, either indirectly or directly, for example by denying education, health services, job security and other goods freely available to everyone else, junkie or not.

I'm not entering a pissing contest on which group was treated worse, but we can at least confirm that jews and roma were persecuted differently. Jews lived in cities with fear of being murdered by mobs every now and then, roma were the last group sold as slaves at european markets, as late as second half of the 19th century.

Read up on the Jewish immigration to Whitechapel, Kadagar, compare it to Roma, then we can talk.

[Kadagar_AV]

SFTS, You have been integrating for some hundred years, this is how the map looks now, and you vaguely say that the younger generation will be more diverse? Sure, but not much. If I look at Sweden, only WT girls are hooking up with MENA or Subsaharans... And even that in very limited scale.

HoreTore, I guess we have to agree to disagree.

[Strike For The South]

please look up the 1960s

[HoreTore]

Of course you know no actual Gypsies.

If you did you'd appreciate that they don't consider themselves a part of our society, and a minority take this to the extreme of disregarding our laws and taking anything not nailed down.

Jew, anyone?

Ah, good ol' Europe.... America needs a strong military. We'll end up in yet another bloodbath they'll have to rescue us from again soon enough. Enlist, SFTS, it'll help with my sleep ~;)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

lol, Where Americans see 3 ethnic groups, Europeans would see 30.

Self segragation is a problem , poverty has as much to do with it any other factor and younger people tend to be more diverse. It also takes a while for old habits to die.

Im not even going to talk about IQ because its not a valid measure of anything

On the other hand - when you have 30 ethnic groups the group you belong to becomes less important, because it's smaller.

Anyway - you classify Spaniards as not white, that's segregation taken to an extreme and refined to a paranoid art.

[Strike For The South]

On the other hand - when you have 30 ethnic groups the group you belong to becomes less important, because it's smaller.

Anyway - you classify Spaniards as not white, that's segregation taken to an extreme and refined to a paranoid art.

Spaniards are white. People of Spanish heritage born in the Americas are Hispanic.

I can hold your hand through the rest of this, if you'd like

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Jew, anyone?

Ah, good ol' Europe.... America needs a strong military. We'll end up in yet another bloodbath they'll have to rescue us from again soon enough. Enlist, SFTS, it'll help with my sleep ~;)

Jews have a different relationship with the communities they interact with - even so all the stereotypes of avaricious Jews have some basis in reality, Jews were ostricised and as a result they exacted their revenge via high interest rates. On the other hand, Jews always integrated to a certain degree by having fixed abodes within cities.

Gypsies choose to live in caravans in fields outside​ the city.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Spaniards are white. People of Spanish heritage born in the Americas are Hispanic.

I can hold your hand through the rest of this, if you'd like

What about the child of two Spanish immigrants?

Hispanic or white?

I'm guessing Hispanic.

[HoreTore]

Jews have a different relationship with the communities they interact with - even so all the stereotypes of avaricious Jews have some basis in reality, Jews were ostricised and as a result they exacted their revenge via high interest rates. On the other hand, Jews always integrated to a certain degree by having fixed abodes within cities.

Gypsies choose to live in caravans in fields outside​ the city.

I'm obviously not going to enter a debate on these premises, but do keep it going. It will amuse me.

[Strike For The South]

What about the child of two Spanish immigrants?

Hispanic or white?

I'm guessing Hispanic.

Ultimatley it depends on how he self identifies

But skin tone, mannerisms, etc will all come into play when he is percivied

[Kadagar_AV]

Ultimatley it depends on how he self identifies

But skin tone, mannerisms, etc will all come into play when he is percivied

Tell me more about their mannerism while explaining how non-racist you are, why don't you?

[Myth]

Regarding the official topic:

Bulgarian media cite a French newspaper "Le Point" so if someone who is a native French speaker can find that article, it'd be great. So this paper states that they were operatives of the DGSE, which is confirmed by Jean Yves Le Drian.

Article in English here (http://www.focus-fen.net/?id=n291321).

Here (http://tv7.bg/news/incidents/9512682.html) is an article complete with a video and interview wtih a French official, although it's translated in Bulgarian so you might not catch all of what he is saying.

This (http://pan.bg/view_article-1-13519-Sluchaqt-se-razplita-Parashutistite-sa-bili-voennosluzheshti-ot-frenskata-Generalna-direkciq-za-vynshna-sigurnost.html) article cites a magazine named "Marianne"

The civilian counter espionage unit of the village of Koilovtsi:


http://pressadaily.bg/userfiles/images/0701_1200x800.jpg

Look, everyone is saying it was a simple training mission. What I suspect, being an avid paranoid conspiracy freak, is that Western intelligence agencies carry out missions in order to blame certain countries or organizations. We had a recent bombing against Israeli tourists and of course, Iran got the blame. How bloody convenient. Now these guys were dark skinned and that's why they got their faces punched in. They had a distinct gypsy/middle eastern look to them, definitely they were not white guys with baguettes under their arms (I'm joking, I love France and I especially admire your history and your strong sense of nationalism)

As regarding to the gypsies (aka. Roma) and how intolerant we are, I know I am talking to people who like to preach racial tolerance and brand people as racist from far, far away. You've never had the pleasure of being neighbours with them or indeed seeing how they choose to live. While certainly the BG government is keeping them illiterate and thus easily bought as voters, they are not helping their own situation. Bulgaria is at a crossroads of the east and west, and we have a lot of minorities here. We have Turks, Armenians, various Arabs, Jews, Russians - you name it! The Turks are hard working and civilized, and they are very hygienic. The Armenians and the Jews are smart and cunning and usually have their own business. The Arabs are very respectful and usually trade to and from their home countries, and they have a keen sense of honour and who has been good to them. The Russians feel practically at home here and if nothing, they're actually treated better because they are Russian.

The gypsies do NOT want to be integrated and they ruin every opportunity of effort to bring them to a normal standard of living. Their subculture promotes the selling of adolescent brides and usually a girl aged 13-14 has her first child after being sold to her future husband. The wives are turned into baby factories because the gypsies mooch off child care. The other day on the news we saw a mother with 18 children (!!!!!!) who's oldest daughter has 10 of her own. So that's 28 gypsies spawned out of two mothers. 200 euro of child care is more than enough for them, and the rest they get by begging and theft.

Brand new appartament blocks were built for them during the communist era. They reduced them to ruins, burning the furniture to keep warm and keeping their horses on the terraces! They live in filth and poverty and even if they are given the option not to, they choose to do so. They do not send their children to school because it is more profitable for them to beg or steal.

Typical ghetto: http://www.dnevnik.bg/shimg/zx450gy250_962519.jpg http://www.smehomania.com/uploads/posts/2010-04/1271622376_smehomania_realnyj_kvartal_v_rumynii_11_1351_ok.jpg

Because we don't want Brussels to slap us across the wrist or America to come and bomb us to give us more tolerance and democracy we actually give the gypsies priveliges - the police doesn't molest them and can rarely arrest a suspect in their ghettos. They run their own internal tribal judicial system called "meshere" which is unconstitutional. When they stop paying their electricity and water bills nobody prosecutes them because "they've gots nothing man!". If a Bulgariain stops paying his bills he is cut off from power and then tried and forced to pay.

I can go on and on, but remember this: It's easy to preach an ideal without having met the problem first hand.

[Greyblades]

Huh, I had no idea that the roma were such a pest, over here we just stick them on reality tv to point and laugh at them.

[HoreTore]

Huh, I had no idea that the roma were such a pest, over here we just stick them on reality tv to point and laugh at them.

The balkans have even formed a new version of the blackshirts, who frequently go to the countryside looking for roma to beat up. With the blessing of the authorities, of course.

Wonderful measure of integration.

[Greyblades]

Methinks that last sentence applies to the roma as much as it does to the locals.

[Myth]

The balkans have even formed a new version of the blackshirts, who frequently go to the countryside looking for roma to beat up. With the blessing of the authorities, of course.

Wonderful measure of integration.
Sir, I live on the Balkans and this is horseshit. Some pseudo NFP organizations like Soros and other such foundations brainwash the western countries into believing this crap. We had a huge scandal last year with one of the most prominent gypsy feudal lords, who got filthy rich off of making fake alcohol. His grandson and a bunch of goons killed a Bulgarian teenager over an argument. Then a bunch of football fans (or "hooligans" as they are called in the news) got up and torched that guy's house (illegally built of course) and his 100,000 euro Mercedes.

The police came and beat and gassed the Bulgarians, not the gypsies who later assembled en masse and said on the damn news that "heads will roll" and shouted "death to the Bulgarians"

they do NOT view themselves as part of this nation and there are no neo-Nazi sqads going around beating gypsies. After this incident a 19 year old got 3 months of prison for starting a FB group named "Death to the gypsies". While the gypsies threatened death on live TV and they got police escort and protection for it.

[HoreTore]

Methinks that last sentence applies to the roma as much as it does to the locals.

Of course, noone is claiming otherwise(if I read it correctly, ie roma has an obligation to integrate) A lot of the Roma are doing fine too, with employment, higher education, etc, just like the completely normal people they are. But when we're talking about the roma problem, we are talking about those who are living in utter poverty and are ostracised and persecuted by various governments(forced sterilization programs FTW).

[Ironside]

Self determination is key. If the Roma don't want to partake in society, that's fine. I don't see why they should be allowed to have their cake and eat it too, though.

But i really don't know much about the situation. :shrug:

It's a spiral. By not partaking in society from the start, they got frozen out and treated badly. In particular the freezing out, causes them to have no other option than to take pride in being what they are. And since they're treated badly and have no other option, they start to act badly in turn.

If people thinks you're a thief and no matter what you do, they won't accept proof of otherwise, then what's the point of not being a thief?

The situation is quite bad there, much worse than with the local Roma population in other countries.

[Myth]

Of course, noone is claiming otherwise(if I read it correctly, ie roma has an obligation to integrate) A lot of the Roma are doing fine too, with employment, higher education, etc, just like the completely normal people they are. But when we're talking about the roma problem, we are talking about those who are living in utter poverty and are ostracised and persecuted by various governments(forced sterilization programs FTW).

I don't know how many Roma you have in the universities in Norway but I've seen none in ours, and I've lived n Student City in Sofia for two years, and I frequent the campus of the Veliko Tarnovo university (my home town).

[Sarmatian]

The balkans have even formed a new version of the blackshirts, who frequently go to the countryside looking for roma to beat up. With the blessing of the authorities, of course.

Wonderful measure of integration.

Ok, this is bollox.

The first nation that integrates Gypsies should get all the Nobel prizes, even physics. Can't be done. You'd have to give each one three-man around the clock watch just to get them to go to school.

There isn't a single mechanism of our state apparatus that could make them change their ways. It's not the problem of "we won't", it's the problem of "they won't".

[Fisherking]

Send them all to Norway and see if that gets them to pay their utility bills?

[HoreTore]

I don't know how many Roma you have in the universities in Norway but I've seen none in ours, and I've lived n Student City in Sofia for two years, and I frequent the campus of the Veliko Tarnovo university (my home town).

That you don't have any rather proves my point about your governments, don't it?


Ok, this is bollox.

The first nation that integrates Gypsies should get all the Nobel prizes, even physics. Can't be done. You'd have to give each one three-man around the clock watch just to get them to go to school.

There isn't a single mechanism of our state apparatus that could make them change their ways. It's not the problem of "we won't", it's the problem of "they won't".

It's already done, so this post isn't relevant.


Send them all to Norway and see if that gets them to pay their utility bills?

We've had roma so long we've even had time to sterilize them. Glory to us!

[Myth]

That you don't have any rather proves my point about your governments, don't it?

No it does not. There are plenty of poor Bulgarian students here, working and paying their way trough the university. The tax is paltry - around 100 euro per semester. Working 4 hours a day in a fast food joint and keeping your GDP above 4.0 will let you pay for that, live for free and eat for 50 euro cents per meal. THEY HAVE THE OPTION TO BENEFIT FROM THIS BUT THEY DO NOT. It's not because there is any special treatment versus them. It's because they don't find it necessary to send their kids to school and they do not WANT to learn or work.

That you would talk like this shows you have no first hand experience with the situation.

[Kralizec]

Can't be done. You'd have to give each one three-man around the clock watch just to get them to go to school.

Allthough you're presumably using it as a random example, I'd pitch in and say that if that's what it takes, then do it. If their parents cause trouble, use SWAT teams to get these kids into school. If those kids grow up without high school diplomas I garantue you the next generations of Roma will be as bad as the current lot.

That alone is not going to solve the problems, but it's a precondition.

[HoreTore]

No it does not. There are plenty of poor Bulgarian students here, working and paying their way trough the university. The tax is paltry - around 100 euro per semester. Working 4 hours a day in a fast food joint and keeping your GDP above 4.0 will let you pay for that, live for free and eat for 50 euro cents per meal. THEY HAVE THE OPTION TO BENEFIT FROM THIS BUT THEY DO NOT. It's not because there is any special treatment versus them. It's because they don't find it necessary to send their kids to school and they do not WANT to learn or work.

That you would talk like this shows you have no first hand experience with the situation.

In Scandinavia, Roma take higher education.
In Bulgaria, Roma does not take higher education.

Yeah, you'd need to be a genius to figure that one out...

[Myth]

Allthough you're presumably using it as a random example, I'd pitch in and say that if that's what it takes, then do it. If their parents cause trouble, use SWAT teams to get these kids into school. If those kids grow up without high school diplomas I garantue you the next generations of Roma will be as bad as the current lot.

That alone is not going to solve the problems, but it's a precondition.
Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.

[Myth]

In Scandinavia, Roma take higher education.
In Bulgaria, Roma does not take higher education.

Yeah, you'd need to be a genius to figure that one out...

Got any proof that these are not ad-hoc cases or simply dark skinned Europeans or middle easterners? We have plenty of Arabs studying medicine here, perhaps you got confused?

[HoreTore]

Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.

A wonderful example of balkan nationalist mentality.

America, ready your bombers....


Got any proof that these are not ad-hoc cases or simply dark skinned Europeans or middle easterners? We have plenty of Arabs studying medicine here, perhaps you got confused?

Hilarious.

I have no idea if any Roma get higher education in Bulgaria. Given the regimes there, it wouldn't surprise me that much if the number was zero or close to zero.

In civilized states built on enlightenment and law as opposed to tribalism and oppression however, Roma do attend university and integrate into society.

[Kralizec]

Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.

I don't know what incident you're referring to (in regards to Milosovic)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Roma apologist. I'm sure they'll find excuses to complain one way or the other regardless of what's done or not done. The SWAT part was hyperbole, meant to express that the state should ensure every kid gets a minimum of education, even those with uncooperative parents.

[HoreTore]

I don't know what incident you're referring to (in regards to Milosovic)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Roma apologist. I'm sure they'll find excuses to complain one way or the other regardless of what's done or not done. The SWAT part was hyperbole, meant to express that the state should ensure every kid gets a minimum of education, even those with uncooperative parents.

A little on the side, but anyway:

In On Freedom, the second part of the book is dedicated to practical applications of the theories on liberty in the first part of the book. There, Mill argues that given his theory of liberalism, parents should be hanged if their children don't perform well at school.

[Kralizec]

I have that book, the original English text. It's called On Liberty ~;p

Been a while since I've read it.

[Myth]

A wonderful example of balkan nationalist mentality.

America, ready your bombers....
You clearly have no clue HoreTore. Trying to use any force agianst a minority creates such problems, that's why the Roma get away with more than they should.


Hilarious.

I have no idea if any Roma get higher education in Bulgaria. Given the regimes there, it wouldn't surprise me that much if the number was zero or close to zero.

In civilized states built on enlightenment and law as opposed to tribalism and oppression however, Roma do attend university and integrate into society.
So, apart from the fact that you're implying Bulgaria is an uncivilized state built on tribalism and oppression (Which is funny, you may look up how old the Bulgarian nation is and when we had written language and advanced architecture) you're saying that in Glorious Mother Norway everyone has a university diploma and the gypsies are all productive members of society? Can you show me facts or you will just continue blowing hot air?

Also, I want to clearly state that I do believe the corrupt and inept government certainly has a part in the problem and it could do much better, but it is absolutely preposterous to say that the gypsies are just regular misunderstood folk and that it's all part of some grand intolerance towards them. YOU haven't seen a "roma" from 50 meters away, you've never stepped inside a ghetto, your grandparents don't have them as neighbours in your village, so therefore your argument is biased and based on assumptions and information fed to you by the media.

[HoreTore]

I have that book, the original English text. It's called On Liberty ~;p

Been a while since I've read it.

Gah, of course. I have a norwegian translation called "Om Friheten", and the word "frihet" translates as both "liberty" and "freedom"...

Myth, I wasn't talking about using force against roma. I was talking about the need for another Milosevic-operation. We'll get there sooner or later if the balkans don't shape up soon.

[Myth]

Ain't no one arguing for extermination and genocide, but now I think the western countries are overcompensating up to the point the when justice has to be delivered it can't be done without raising a red flag somewhere on the other side of Europe that those damn Balkan peeps are molesting the gypsies again.

I can show you a video documentary where anonymous cops are admitting that arrests are impossible in the Roma ghettoes. They come out in droves of 50-100 and threaten and shove the cops away. If this was America they would have gotten shot in their damn faces, but if it happens here the conflict will escalate and the gendarmerie will have to move in. And then we have Faux news blabbering about "Civil unrest and trampling of human rights against ethnic minorities." When Bulgarian students go out to protest they get beaten with batons, but the cops refuse do use the special police forces against the Roma, because if nothing else, the Roma have learned that there is strength in numbers and unity and they all stick together. That's why it's funny when urban legends about skinheads going and beating them abound - everyone who's been in a ghetto or even a bar fight that involves Roma knows that you're not fighting one guy or two guys but every gypsy within a radius of half a kilometer.

They rioted, right here in Sofia, a few years back. They had come out wielding knives, scimithars, pitchforks, staves and other assorted arms from the 1200s and shouted how heads will roll. The police had shrunk back like a scrotum in cold water, from fear that if they use their shields and batons the fighting will not end there and fundamentally we're back to square 1. So the current (retarded) decision of the government is to leave them be and let them steal, beg, prostitute and rape instead of having a much messier problem on their hands, one which could possibly make us seem even more incompetent before Brussels (but I think that's rather hard to achieve).

If you see videos of the riots in Spain you see police brutality abounds. For example this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LQucgnjgeI

America isn't bombing them because that's acceptable, since ethnic Spaniards are having their heads caved in. If we do that here in order to remove the illegal buildings, to evict/arrest those who have broken the law, to stop the bands who lie to elderly people over the phone and steal their savings, to stop those who steal livestock and produce in the rural areas (heck, they even steal the doors off of people's fences) we would get a knee-jerk reaction from western europe that we're bullying the minorities. And believe me the roma stick together so much that it's impossible to bring law in their ghettoes without the aforementioned methods.

[Sarmatian]

It's already done, so this post isn't relevant.

Yeah, for like 5%, after centuries of effort.


Allthough you're presumably using it as a random example, I'd pitch in and say that if that's what it takes, then do it. If their parents cause trouble, use SWAT teams to get these kids into school. If those kids grow up without high school diplomas I garantue you the next generations of Roma will be as bad as the current lot.

That alone is not going to solve the problems, but it's a precondition.

I agree, but for 300,000 Roma, that's one million policemen. In a country of 8 million people.

It's hard to do anything because they're simply outside the system. No address, no telephone number, no job, no schooling, no birth control, no family planning, no goals (in out western sense), no care for their children, no nothing.

You put a gypsy in jail, it's like a vacation for him - hey, it's free food, warm room and more comfortable bed. And I don't have to do anything? Take me in, I'm yours. And then 12 (aged from 3 to 15) of his kids are out on the street begging. And he doesn't care. Usually, they're on the streets even before to get him more money.

I'm all for integrating them, but they resisted it for centuries. And then you have people and NGO's from the west blubbering nonsense how it's easy and it could be done in the blink of an eye if someone just wanted it. After that they open an office in <insert Balkan country>, receive 5 times local average salary for doing absolutely nothing but sitting in a nicely furnished office with air-condition on, repeating the same phrase like a parrot.

[Kadagar_AV]

HoreTore, I had the same view as you about the "poor gypsies" before I started frequenting Romania some many years ago...

Myth strikes me as a rather normal representative of how they think. The Romanians I met by and large wished for a good solution with the gypsies, given the amount of tension and problems, I think the Romanian people are VERY understanding and accepting, if anything. There are of course the odd extremist, but by and large, I saw a people trying to make their country work with a VERY problematic minority group.

[HoreTore]

This thread delivers.

[Myth]

Well, if we're talking Romania: I visited Bucharest 3 times this year. In the summer, I parked my car in the dead center - next to that big mall with the screens protruding out of it's side. There's an excellent pedestrian area full of pubs and young (and hot) people there. One hundred meters to the right i saw a bunch of Roma, bare footed and dirty, listening to some loud oriental crap on their car radio and washing their carpet with a hose in the middle of the street.

[Sarmatian]

This thread delivers.

But you don't. I'm waiting to hear something constructive from you instead of balkan = barbarians mantra.

[HoreTore]

But you don't. I'm waiting to hear something constructive from you instead of balkan = barbarians mantra.

Nah, I grew my e-penis to new lengths in TR's thread, I'm good for now.

Edit: okay then, I guess I can grow it a couple of mm's. Two points:

1. I find it fascinating that someone from a country(Bulgaria) where one in five people of working age spends their time sitting on their bums watching the telly are complaining that "those other guys" are sitting on their bums watching telly.

2. The employment rate for Roma in Albania is higher than the employment rate of the general population. Why would I want to debate with someone who obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, Sarmatian(ref your 5% comment)? Is it unreasonable to want a debate where the participants have a minimum of knowledge?

[Myth]

Nah, I grew my e-penis to new lengths in TR's thread, I'm good for now.

Edit: okay then, I guess I can grow it a couple of mm's. Two points:

1. I find it fascinating that someone from a country(Bulgaria) where one in five people of working age spends their time sitting on their bums watching the telly are complaining that "those other guys" are sitting on their bums watching telly.

Nope. You seem to have a problem differentiating between your own opinion and how you imagine things are and established facts that back up your argument. The current unemployment rate in Bulgaria is 12,4% and that includes the mooching gypsies with 18 kids per family. Compare that to Spain and Greece. Now go try harder.

Also, I am not complaining that they are sitting and watching the telly, I am complaining that they would rather harm the society that feeds them than try and learn and work. If they all sat back and ate tree bark and didn't bother anyone I'd hardly have a problem, but when they stole money from both my grandparents, when they steal produce and livestock and deliberately teach their children that pickpocketing and begging is more profitable than school, then I have a problem. I myself am working since I've been 22 without missing more than two consecutive weeks between jobs. The young people who chose to remain here (because many are successful in western Europe and the USA) are working, albeit they are forced to go to the capital and other big cities. But urbanization is hardly a local issue.

This comment once again proves you know nothing of the Balkan region and our countries, but you like talking out of your diddly-hole.


2. The employment rate for Roma in Albania is higher than the employment rate of the general population. Why would I want to debate with someone who obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, Sarmatian(ref your 5% comment)? Is it unreasonable to want a debate where the participants have a minimum of knowledge?Albania is whole 'nother story, one which is not relevant to the topic at hand. For one, the social politics (child care, unemployment aid etc.) are probably designed so that moochers can't live off the taxpayers. The faulty system here allows them to, and that is a legitimate issue.

[HoreTore]

Do continue. :beam:

[Myth]

Do continue. :beam:
I see you have nothing to say so I think you can leave the discussion.

[HoreTore]

I must correct an embarrassing mistake: the figure for Albania I fiund was old pre-financial crisis. I can't find a proper up-to-date number, but from what I gather the roma figure is higher than the general population today.

Still, small matter when the topic is Der Evige Juden Roma.

[Kadagar_AV]

I must correct an embarrassing mistake: the figure for Albania I fiund was old pre-financial crisis. I can't find a proper up-to-date number, but from what I gather the roma figure is higher than the general population today.

Still, small matter when the topic is Der Evige Juden Roma.

Goodwin. You lost.

[Sarmatian]

I must correct an embarrassing mistake: the figure for Albania I fiund was old pre-financial crisis. I can't find a proper up-to-date number, but from what I gather the roma figure is higher than the general population today.

Still, small matter when the topic is Der Evige Juden Roma.

And that's for those who are working.

What you're gonna do with the majority who doesn't have an address or ID, basically don't appear in the system and aren't taken into account?

Try harder, please.

[HoreTore]

Goodwin. You lost.

Goodwin implies something will happen, it's not about winning or loosing ~;) Nazi comparison are always fun. And I proved Goodwin true several posts ago, btw...

Anyway, back to Albania.

Albania is very relevant. You have population group A, which has employment figure F in country P, and employment figure G in country Q. If F is much higher than G, the conclusion you can draw is not that A is at fault(being the same), but rather that Q is run by monkeys.

I don't presuppose to know the inns and outs of Albania, but for one thing they haven't established blackshirt militias to hunt down and best up random romas. Like we see the monkeys running country Q has done.

[Sarmatian]

I don't presuppose to know the inns and outs of Albania, but for one thing they haven't established blackshirt militias to hunt down and best up random romas. Like we see the monkeys running country Q has done.

Que?

What are you smoking and why aren't you sharing?

[HoreTore]

Que?

What are you smoking and why aren't you sharing?

Hungary's Jobbik first and foremost, of course.

[Sarmatian]

Hungary's Jobbik first and foremost, of course.

Then divert your bashing and barbarism comparison from Balkans to Central Europe please.

From now on rule No.1 on Balkan bashing - it has to be in the Balkans for you to bash it, thank you.

[Myth]

Goodwin implies something will happen, it's not about winning or loosing ~;) Nazi comparison are always fun. And I proved Goodwin true several posts ago, btw...

Anyway, back to Albania.

Albania is very relevant. You have population group A, which has employment figure F in country P, and employment figure G in country Q. If F is much higher than G, the conclusion you can draw is not that A is at fault(being the same), but rather that Q is run by monkeys.

I don't presuppose to know the inns and outs of Albania, but for one thing they haven't established blackshirt militias to hunt down and best up random romas. Like we see the monkeys running country Q has done.

Let's talk facts and not turn this into theoretic physics. Albania is a Muslim country, one which is being used as a gateway for Muslim financial aid to furhter the cause of Islam in Europe. This is their foothold in the lands of the crusaders. I personally don't have anything against Islam, but if you don't know about Albania don't bring it up. They get financial injections from wealthy middle eastern countries, as well as other influences. The roma there are just as dirty and poor as in other countries, but they are not prosecuted because they are willing to convert to Islam so long as it provides benefits, we have the same thing here.

In the Balkans we don't have organized gangs that beat up gypsies this is bullshit. Either state your sources or stop making shit up, or worse - repeating what you herd on the news like a brainwashed parrot. Also, if you deem us so uncivilized perhaps you should look up the protests in Hungary from a couple of months ago or Sarkozy's speech and actions from the spring of this year.

[Myth]

Hungary's Jobbik first and foremost, of course.

I actually went to Hungary in August. Have you been there or is your information from reliable sources like BBC news and CNN?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Norway is notorious for being racist - that's how Breivic was able to wander around Oslo with an automatic weapon wearing body armour and no ID or uniform, because the police were looking for a darky.

[HoreTore]

Then divert your bashing and barbarism comparison from Balkans to Central Europe please.

From now on rule No.1 on Balkan bashing - it has to be in the Balkans for you to bash it, thank you.

Bah, I have my own World Map, thankyouverymuch. It goes something like this:

Everything below Fritzl, to the west of the russkiecommies and above the beach boys and couchland = Balkanistan.

And it should be rather obvious that the topic is "roma treatment". "Balkan government incompetence", while an interesting topic, isn't the main one...


Albania is a Muslim country, one which is being used as a gateway for Muslim financial aid to furhter the cause of Islam in Europe.

Ahahahahahahahahaaaa.....

[rvg]

Ahahahahahahahahaaaa.....

Well, technically it is muslim. Technically.

[Kralizec]

- Roma children in Bulgaria often end up in schools with near 100% Roma children (due to regional districting)
- these schools tend to be of inferior quality
- underperforming Roma children are very often sent to special schools for learning disabilities etc., ignoring that they underperform because of the crappy regular schools

I'm not saying that the Roma are blameless (I think the prejudices, sadly, have a firm basis in reality) but from the looks of it Bulgaria isn't trying very hard on fixing it, having decided beforehand that it's pointless and futile.


I agree, but for 300,000 Roma, that's one million policemen. In a country of 8 million people.

Not all of those 300,000 would be kids obviously. I imagine that it would only take extensive police/government action in the first years.

There aren't many Roma in the Netherlands (and no camps as far as I'm aware) but we do have an ethnic Dutch subculture which evolved from 19th century travelers and still lives in camps. The issues surrounding these people aren't nearly as serious as with the Roma, but comparable in some ways. For instance, for years our tax agency had a deal with many of these camps that the inhabitants would pay a lump sum to buy off their tax duties, which amounted to a significant writeoff. The reasoning was that collecting all due taxes would be met with so much resistance, requiring so much police assistance that this compromise was more cost-efficient.

In my view this was a bad move because
1) the law should be equal for all, even if it's not cost-efficient. They should have collected all taxes out of sheer principle even if it didn't return a positive net result
2) I think it's unwise in the long term. Making this compromise imprints the idea on these people the idea that defying the authorities will pay off. If the government would just collect the taxes they'd make a net loss for the first couple of years, but the inhabitants would realize that it's no use resisting so much and be more cooperative eventually.

There also was a public perception that the police was reluctant to go into these camps if the crime wasn't serious enough - allthough the last few years that seems to have changed somewhat.


I can show you a video documentary where anonymous cops are admitting that arrests are impossible in the Roma ghettoes. They come out in droves of 50-100 and threaten and shove the cops away.

And I think the same would apply here. Obedience to the law should not be negotiable and behaviour like this should be forced out of them through sheer attrition. If you need dozens of cops to arrest a single Roma suspect, then do so - deciding that it's not worth the hassle merely strenghtens them in their conviction that they can get away with anything as long as they threaten with enough trouble. I realize that this would require some heavy-handed tactics but it goes without saying that unprovoked police brutality against Roma won't do any good. Avoiding the confrontation is merely extending the status quo and means they'll never learn to respect the law.

[Myth]

Bah, I have my own World Map, thankyouverymuch. It goes something like this:

Everything below Fritzl, to the west of the russkiecommies and above the beach boys and couchland = Balkanistan.

And it should be rather obvious that the topic is "roma treatment". "Balkan government incompetence", while an interesting topic, isn't the main one...



Ahahahahahahahahaaaa.....

OK now after reading your insulting generalizations about half of Europe I officially brand you a troll who is incapable of partaking in a logical argument. I won't be replying to your posts in this thread any more.

[HoreTore]

When the police force thinks of roma as üntermenchen, one needs to use more caution when ordering "heavy handed" action.

[HoreTore]

OK now after reading your insulting generalizations about half of Europe I officially brand you a troll who is incapable of partaking in a logical argument. I won't be replying to your posts in this thread any more.

When statements like "Albania is a gateway to further Islam in Europe" is considered reasoned and logical, I start taking things less serious.

Oh, and come on: insulting generalizations? Cry me a river. Take a short look at your own filth, please.

[Kadagar_AV]

When the police force thinks of roma as üntermenchen, one needs to use more caution when ordering "heavy handed" action.

what's üntermenchen? Just because it's German you don't have to stick a ¨ on every u. Goodwin again btw. Just saying...

[Myth]

rvg Albania is a Muslim country, though there are still a number of orthodox citizens there. But the tide has swung so far as that the financing and decisions come from pro-Muslim or downright Muslim sources. I don't particularly mind it and it's not like we don't have another Muslim country in Europe, numbering in 90 million population... But facts are facts. So are the Roma converting to Islam and even changing their self-proclaimed ethnicity when it suits them.

A good number here in Bulgaria define themselves as Turks because there is a certain political party that gives them benefits if they do.

Regarding the lawlessness of the ghettos:

http://vbox7.com/play:ad1e3e1577&r=emb

This is an attempt to remove the illegal structures erected on municipal territory. The resident Roma population is only 300 people. The only guy that got hit went and attacked the cop first, and still nothing major happened. Compare it to the cops beating teenage football fans bloody, or to the fine law enforcement in Spain and Greece who maul their own countrymen like good little robots.

The Roma here do more than build housing without permits and without owning the land. They cut down century old forests to sell the timber, and go in numbers of 200 where the park rangers are two, maximum three people. Last year one park ranger got nearly killed with axes by poaching gypsies who wanted to cut timber in a national park.

When the cops go they are timid little girls because the governemnt tells them to leave the gypsies alone. A national policy of inaction and weak rule is the culprit, but again, pressure from foreign countries run by fops who like to babble about rights and integration certainly plays a role.

[Sarmatian]

- Roma children in Bulgaria often end up in schools with near 100% Roma children (due to regional districting)
- these schools tend to be of inferior quality
- underperforming Roma children are very often sent to special schools for learning disabilities etc., ignoring that they underperform because of the crappy regular schools

I'm not saying that the Roma are blameless (I think the prejudices, sadly, have a firm basis in reality) but from the looks of it Bulgaria isn't trying very hard on fixing it, having decided beforehand that it's pointless and futile.



Not all of those 300,000 would be kids obviously. I imagine that it would only take extensive police/government action in the first years.

There aren't many Roma in the Netherlands (and no camps as far as I'm aware) but we do have an ethnic Dutch subculture which evolved from 19th century travelers and still lives in camps. The issues surrounding these people aren't nearly as serious as with the Roma, but comparable in some ways. For instance, for years our tax agency had a deal with many of these camps that the inhabitants would pay a lump sum to buy off their tax duties, which amounted to a significant writeoff. The reasoning was that collecting all due taxes would be met with so much resistance, requiring so much police assistance that this compromise was more cost-efficient.

In my view this was a bad move because
1) the law should be equal for all, even if it's not cost-efficient. They should have collected all taxes out of sheer principle even if it didn't return a positive net result
2) I think it's unwise in the long term. Making this compromise imprints the idea on these people the idea that defying the authorities will pay off. If the government would just collect the taxes they'd make a net loss for the first couple of years, but the inhabitants would realize that it's no use resisting so much and be more cooperative eventually.

There also was a public perception that the police was reluctant to go into these camps if the crime wasn't serious enough - allthough the last few years that seems to have changed somewhat.



And I think the same would apply here. Obedience to the law should not be negotiable and behaviour like this should be forced out of them through sheer attrition. If you need dozens of cops to arrest a single Roma suspect, then do so - deciding that it's not worth the hassle merely strenghtens them in their conviction that they can get away with anything as long as they threaten with enough trouble. I realize that this would require some heavy-handed tactics but it goes without saying that unprovoked police brutality against Roma won't do any good. Avoiding the confrontation is merely extending the status quo and means they'll never learn to respect the law.

Unfortunately, this is common stance for someone who is unfamiliar with the situation - thinking that applying usual methods will work. Those methods have already been tried and they don't work. Actually, they do, but at a snail's pace. To make things move quicker, a gargantuan effort would be required and that would be hard even for much richer countries. Then, of course, there's a question of fairness - how do you justify spending a 100$ per child in one case and 1$ per child in other case?

Furthermore, even if you provide that, how do you keep them in one place for it to have effect? You can't build a new school every time they move and forcefully relocate teachers. What can you do? Build free houses for them? There simply isn't enough money, and even if it was, why should Roma get it? There are refugees from Bosnia and Croatia who still have housing issues and they have actually been paying taxes for the last few decades. There are other underpriviliged people and they would have just as much right to those houses as Romas.

When you enroll them in school with other kids, they tend to fall behind quickly simply because they are just noticeably less knowledgeable than other kids, even at such young age. You can't hold the rest of the class back for one child. Other issue is that they often don't speak the language well, or even at all sometimes, and you can't even provide teachers because every "charda" (rough translation camp) of few hundred people have their own dialect, and those dialects are mutually unintelligible. There's no Roma language, just thousands of dialects with no grammar or rules.

It's very hard to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

[Tuuvi]

On the other hand - when you have 30 ethnic groups the group you belong to becomes less important, because it's smaller.

Anyway - you classify Spaniards as not white, that's segregation taken to an extreme and refined to a paranoid art.

A lot of Hispanic people have some Native American ancestry, generally they have dark brown or olive skin and they don't look "white". Like Strike said, Spaniard doesn't equal Hispanic/Latino.

[rvg]

rvg Albania is a Muslim country...
Technically yes it is. The thing is that Albania spent many decades under a brutal Stalinist dictatorship that would make Todor Zhivkov look like a western liberal. It was basically a European version of North Korea. One of the sideffects of a regime with this level of brutality is that it is EXTREMELY good at eliminating competition. Religion was that competition, and it was destroyed not only in terms of converting mosques into storehouses, but it was utterly burned out of people's minds. This isn't Bulgaria or Russia where the local Orthodox Church was tolerated. Religion in Albania was utterly crushed, especially among the majority population.
So yes, you can say that Albania is nominally muslim, but the word "muslim" needs a huge asterisk and a footnote next to it.

[Fisherking]

Technically yes it is. The thing is that Albania spent many decades under a brutal Stalinist dictatorship that would make Todor Zhivkov look like a western liberal. It was basically a European version of North Korea. One of the sideffects of a regime with this level of brutality is that it is EXTREMELY good at eliminating competition. Religion was that competition, and it was destroyed not only in terms of converting mosques into storehouses, but it was utterly burned out of people's minds. This isn't Bulgaria or Russia where the local Orthodox Church tolerated. Religion in Albania was utterly crushed, especially among the majority population.
So yes, you can say that Albania is nominally muslim, but the word "muslim" needs a huge asterisk and a footnote next to it.

But wouldn’t that make believers more fervent and dedicated to their principles once it returned?

[rvg]

But wouldn’t that make believers more fervent and dedicated to their principles once it returned?

That would be the case if religion was suppressed. In case of Albania it wasn't suppressed, it was exterminated.

[Kralizec]

Unfortunately, this is common stance for someone who is unfamiliar with the situation - thinking that applying usual methods will work. Those methods have already been tried and they don't work. Actually, they do, but at a snail's pace. To make things move quicker, a gargantuan effort would be required and that would be hard even for much richer countries. Then, of course, there's a question of fairness - how do you justify spending a 100$ per child in one case and 1$ per child in other case?

Furthermore, even if you provide that, how do you keep them in one place for it to have effect? You can't build a new school every time they move and forcefully relocate teachers. What can you do? Build free houses for them? There simply isn't enough money, and even if it was, why should Roma get it? There are refugees from Bosnia and Croatia who still have housing issues and they have actually been paying taxes for the last few decades. There are other underpriviliged people and they would have just as much right to those houses as Romas.

When you enroll them in school with other kids, they tend to fall behind quickly simply because they are just noticeably less knowledgeable than other kids, even at such young age. You can't hold the rest of the class back for one child. Other issue is that they often don't speak the language well, or even at all sometimes, and you can't even provide teachers because every "charda" (rough translation camp) of few hundred people have their own dialect, and those dialects are mutually unintelligible. There's no Roma language, just thousands of dialects with no grammar or rules.

It's very hard to help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

Maybe you're right.

I've had some hot discussions in real life with people about this (Roma kids). It's my firm opinion that a child's right to a good education trumps parents' rights in regards to their children any day of the week. If the parents are uncapable or unwilling to facilitate that, child protection services should come into play. Someone once called me a fascist for that.
As you say though, there's a point when you can no longer justify spending money on a relatively small number of people. But looking at the figures of Roma who actually obtain diplomas in eastern European country I can't help but wondering wether it's only the Roma's doing, or if maybe their educational needs are simply a very low priority for the governments.

[Strike For The South]

Send me the gypsies

In 2 generations they will be pumping out as many movies and peace prizes as those dirty jews

[HoreTore]

But wouldn’t that make believers more fervent and dedicated to their principles once it returned?


That would be the case if religion was suppressed. In case of Albania it wasn't suppressed, it was exterminated.

We have indeed seen fire, brimstone and jew-on-a-stake in orthodox ex-sovjets, with worrying fundamentalism on the rise. Ditto for the muslim republics.

Except Albania, of course. Compare Albania to Chechnya, and you get your "Hoxha-effect".

[Sarmatian]

Send me the gypsies

In 2 generations they will be pumping out as many movies and peace prizes as those dirty jews


We have indeed seen fire, brimstone and jew-on-a-stake in orthodox ex-sovjets, with worrying fundamentalism on the rise. Ditto for the muslim republics.

Except Albania, of course. Compare Albania to Chechnya, and you get your "Hoxha-effect".

It is funny how people can't think outside a framework.
Eastern europe, Balkans especially -> we don't understand -> therefore it's not like us -> therefore it's bad.

Get your hillbilly communities to produce movies and get nobel prizes, first instead of them living in trash in the Appalachians. And compared to the gypsies, those hillbillies look like they eat everyday with the Queen of England.

There are integrated gypsies, those who decided to take the opportunity to get schooling and get a job. The problem is what to do with those that don't want to.


Maybe you're right.

I've had some hot discussions in real life with people about this (Roma kids). It's my firm opinion that a child's right to a good education trumps parents' rights in regards to their children any day of the week. If the parents are uncapable or unwilling to facilitate that, child protection services should come into play. Someone once called me a fascist for that.


Personally, I agree with it. I'd take away most Roma children, any children, from their parents, if they don't provide for them properly. But, now imagine what would happen - Horetore would read in the papers how in Serbia, Roma children are taken away from their parents and would again start shouting barbarism and cruelty. He would probably spin it in such a way in his head that it would appear to him that children are taken from parents just because they're gypsies. There would be an international outrage at the treatment of Roma.

Then again, more than 3/4 of children in orphanages are Roma kids who had simply been abandoned by their parents or taken away.

[Kadagar_AV]

Let's remember that it is rather easy being socialistic and condemning of others, when you live in a more homogeneous and very rich country.

HoreTore is Norwegian, they have oil and lack 300.000 gypsies.

[HoreTore]

We're no bett - we have already done the "take gypsy kids from their parents and convert them to proper norwegians"-part. You Swedes did the same by the way, Kadagar.

One of the darkest parts of our history, and it was under 50 years ago. Guess what - all it did was ruin lives. Shocker. I wish the US had stepped in and stopped our barbarity, and I sincerely hope they will do it should any Balkan country repeat our barbarity.

Heck, we weren't satisfied with just one failure, we tried the same on at least 3 different ethnic groups to prove beyond doubt what an utterly idiotic idea it is.

I don't presume to have the answer to all questions in life, but here's a starter:

First and most important of all, cease the "gypsies are retards"-attitude. Yes, it's prevalent in the Balkans(heck, all of europe), and no positive change will occur before it's gone. Secondly, examine why those who succeed did it. Closely. Without the aforementioned prejudices. Then, do it.

Culture is a hoax, the world consists of various socio-economic classes. Roma problems are socio-economic problems.

[Kadagar_AV]

Let's remember that it is rather easy being socialistic and condemning of others, when you live in a more homogeneous and very rich country.

HoreTore is Norwegian, they have oil and lack 300.000 gypsies.

EDIT: Point remains exactly the same.
EDIT2: LOL@ "culture is a hoax"... Eeeeeh.... Yeah, there is NO such thing as culture. Nor are there any black people, we are ALL the same. Sorry, I should switch "Norway" for "Lala land".

[Tellos Athenaios]

Get your hillbilly communities to produce movies and get nobel prizes, first instead of them living in trash in the Appalachians. And compared to the gypsies, those hillbillies look like they eat everyday with the Queen of England.

There are integrated gypsies, those who decided to take the opportunity to get schooling and get a job. The problem is what to do with those that don't want to.

Pretty much, though admittedly the bit about the Queen might have something to do with inbreeding. The thing is for the Roma to be part of the host society they simply have to give up their way of life, and they understandably do not want to. But the consequence is that they are less integrated, successful and committed to their host society (as in: acknowledging and in keeping with the law) than your average drug addicted tramp.

It's not necessarily malice or ill-will on either side either. We are a settled society, but a large number of Roma would prefer a nomadic way of life. Nomadism is inherently incompatible as it implies a very destructive lifestyle which effectively destroys a patch of land before moving on to the next. Settled people who used to live on that patch of land would get upset at having it ruined. So having a fixed abode, and holding down a steady job is kind of important over here as is the rule of law (in promptu conflict resolution through acts of violence are frowned upon over here). Respect for individual property rights is important, which means you cannot just claim any patch of land that looks suitable. We also have a welfare society which is predicated on people putting in and not just taking out. This might seem strange over in the USA, but it means you have to pay taxes, too.

All those immigrants America is so proud of having assimilated at least could agree on that, if for no other reason than the fact that they had no other choice. So all there ever was to do is the gradual process of acculturation which yielded assimilation. Roma do, and they would beg to differ from the rest of Europe on these matters, which makes integration let alone assimilation so hard.

The alternative is for the host country to give up its own ways and join the Roma, which apart from everything else would promptly result in mass famine and pollution as it is hugely inefficient and unsustainable way of life, so that is not going to happen very soon either.

[HoreTore]

Let's remember that it is rather easy being socialistic and condemning of others, when you live in a more homogeneous and very rich country.

HoreTore is Norwegian, they have oil and lack 300.000 gypsies.

EDIT: Point remains exactly the same.
EDIT2: LOL@ "culture is a hoax"... Eeeeeh.... Yeah, there is NO such thing as culture. Nor are there any black people, we are ALL the same. Sorry, I should switch "Norway" for "Lala land".

"Culture is a hoax" because traits explained by socio-economic class factors are labeled "culture" instead.

[Kadagar_AV]

"Culture is a hoax" because traits explained by socio-economic class factors are labeled "culture" instead.

So there is no gypsy culture, just a socio-economic class? You, dear sir, scare me. Not to mention, the Gypsy's would probably beat you to a bloody pulp for uttering such nonsense, as they are proud of their culture.

[HoreTore]

So there is no gypsy culture, just a socio-economic class? You, dear sir, scare me. Not to mention, the Gypsy's would probably beat you to a bloody pulp for uttering such nonsense, as they are proud of their culture.

Lrn2read.

[Kadagar_AV]

Right back at ya.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A lot of Hispanic people have some Native American ancestry, generally they have dark brown or olive skin and they don't look "white". Like Strike said, Spaniard doesn't equal Hispanic/Latino.

A lot of Spaniards and Italians have Olive skin on the Mediteranian coast, too.

they're still considered white.

"Hispanic" is a cultural marker for people seen as coming from outside the US - it also denotes a "Native" ancestry, which is historically negative.

[Strike For The South]

I don't disagree, Tom

[Vuk]

I find it funny that in a thread a while ago a bunch of Euros were going on about how man for man European militaries were as good (and some claiming better) than American militaries. lmao Whatever.
Nice to know that the French really do deserve their reputation.

[Brenus]

"Nice to know that the French really do deserve their reputation." DGSE= Civilian (spy), if info is right. Nice to see you ar up your reputation.
So, summary, Bulgarians saw people on their field and because their colour of skin beat them up...

[gaelic cowboy]

I find it funny that in a thread a while ago a bunch of Euros were going on about how man for man European militaries were as good (and some claiming better) than American militaries. lmao Whatever.
Nice to know that the French really do deserve their reputation.

but then the question is would america beat the bulgarians???

[Sarmatian]

No one can beat the Bulgarians.

We were at war with them and they still stand. And if Serbian army can't do it, no one can.

Let's take a look what happened with everyone else foolish enough to pick a fight with us:

1) Byzantium - gone
2) Ottoman Empire - gone
3) Habsburgs - gone
4) Third Reich - gone
5) Soviet Union - gone

So, there's no shame in losing to Bulgarians.

[Kadagar_AV]

Honestly speaking, I'm not sure I would pick most special op troopers before Bulgarian country brawlers to back me up in a fight...

Also, European special ops imho focus more on endurance, while American ones are more focused on strength.

[Vuk]

Honestly speaking, I'm not sure I would pick most special op troopers before Bulgarian country brawlers to back me up in a fight...

Also, European special ops imho focus more on endurance, while American ones are more focused on strength.

Well, their endurance did them a heck of a lot of good. ~;)

[Tellos Athenaios]

"Nice to know that the French really do deserve their reputation." DGSE= Civilian (spy), if info is right. Nice to see you ar up your reputation.
So, summary, Bulgarians saw people on their field and because their colour of skin beat them up...

Nah, they just forgot to mention their code phrase: "Eet is eye, Leclerc."

[Brenus]

I just in more detail the story from Myth. The 2 Brawlers, helped by friend, then friends, have beaten 5 French because their dark skin colour, and shoot at them (two of the men were shot in the legs, one had his nose broken and several had fractured limbs. They were beaten bloody, and only two managed to escape.) So on 5, the Bulgarians mob succeeded in capturing 3 (whom 2 injured in the legs). And by the way, who are the several others?
So, in fact, the weak and coward French did quite well as if they were “Secret” agents or Special Forces, they were probably under instructions to avoid injuring Civilian Population….:laugh4:

[Fisherking]

Similar operations are not so unusual. The fact that a Bulgarian Minister initially backed up the cover story likely shows that they were aware the operation was going to happen, though they may not have had a date or location.

It is also true that they would not fight but flee. Injuring civilians would not be an option in a peacetime operation.

Getting caught in a farmer’s field in the middle of the night can be dangerous anywhere. If these particular farmers had had problems with thieves or thought they had caught thieves it was not going to get easier.

It was bad circumstances. Five men trying to run away in the dark from armed men are going to draw fire.

It is actually fortunate that they only got shot in the legs.

Whether French, British, US, or anyone else, it would not have turned out much different.

[Husar]

Didn't you watch Rambo? Let me tell you, a single US Marine would've killed the whole town and then taken on half the Bulgarian army before some evil communist general would've come in a helicopter with rockets and then...

[Fisherking]

If that is the sort of thing you like, then contact these guys: http://www.legion-recrute.com/en/

Maybe you will get the chance to go like this: http://seanlinnane.blogspot.de/2010/04/camarone-day-30-april-1863.html

[Husar]

Ah yes, but I chose not to say FFL because I wasn't aiming for a realistic story... ~;)

[Brenus]

And to be fair, Camerone is not a LRRP. But "holding the Line" things...

[Husar]

How dare you suggest the great Rambo was a marine!? He was Army, brah. :mad:

That was the point, if an army guy could do what he did, then surely a marine could do so much more. ~;)

[Kadagar_AV]

I love the Marines... Only cannon fodder being damn proud of being cannon fodder...

I'm da THING, I'm da MARINE, no special ops stuffz here nah, I storm beaches and stuff!!

It's where the US send the brawl without the brains, and the fact that they are proud of it I only understood when I remembered that this is in the country where many poor support the American Dream but not an Universal Health Plan.

I love the states.

[Vuk]

I love the Marines... Only cannon fodder being damn proud of being cannon fodder...

I'm da THING, I'm da MARINE, no special ops stuffz here nah, I storm beaches and stuff!!

It's where the US send the brawl without the brains, and the fact that they are proud of it I only understood when I remembered that this is in the country where many poor support the American Dream but not an Universal Health Plan.

I love the states.

Mate, I wish you were standing beside me right now, because I would turn you inside out. Why don't you go grow a pair of balls (or are they outlawed in Sweden?) and actually say that to a US Marine's face? You know as well as I do that you would never dare.

[Kadagar_AV]

Mate, I wish you were standing beside me right now, because I would turn you inside out. Why don't you go grow a pair of balls (or are they outlawed in Sweden?) and actually say that to a US Marine's face? You know as well as I do that you would never dare.

To threat forum members with physical violence is generally seen as rude mate.

I've said worse to marines, got in a hell of a fight too. As you yourself imply, it's not like these guys generally have the mental capacity to answer with anything but fists, is it?

Wasn't a clear winner in that fight though, but back then I was Sgt. and way more fit. I'm sure most of those lackwits would beat me today, but why would that stop me from stating that they are cretins on the internet?

[Vuk]

To threat forum members with physical violence is generally seen as rude mate.

I've said worse to marines, got in a hell of a fight too. As you yourself imply, it's not like these guys generally have the mental capacity to answer with anything but fists, is it?

Wasn't a clear winner in that fight though, but back then I was Sgt. and way more fit. I'm sure most of those lackwits would beat me today, but why would that stop me from stating that they are cretins on the internet?

It isn't cool to say things like that just because you are trying to piss people off dude. Have some respect, and don't act like a piece of dung.

[Vuk]

Marines are, by and large, undisciplined and full of themselves. They have itchy trigger fingers and lack the cool-mindedness required for counter-insurgency ops. Leave em for storming the beaches. :quiet:

Oh, and happy Birthday, ye smarmy bastards!

Translation: The Marines are the branch that knows how to fight and win wars, and the Army makes better policemen.

[Greyblades]

It isn't cool to say things like that just because you are trying to piss people off dude. Have some respect, and don't act like a piece of dung.

Hello Kettle, I'm Pot, you're black.

[Kadagar_AV]

It isn't cool to say things like that just because you are trying to piss people off dude. Have some respect, and don't act like a piece of dung.

This might be a shocker, but I don't respect your illiterate, warmongering country at all, and their marines possibly even less.

When you manage to go, say, a decade without war... And when the percentage of people having ridiculous beliefs start to reach normal western standards, I might start to treat the country with some respect.

I might.

If you take offense when I state an obvious truth, it's your problem. Marines ARE fodder. Their high morale and special esprit de corps make them good fodder, I grant you that though. Still stupid of course, but good stupid fodder.

Swedish equivalent is the same, one of few battalions where they have a maximum set for the intelligence rating when accepting, not a minimum. :shrug:

[Kadagar_AV]

I'm sure if Sweden had a population of 300,000, the largest economy in the world, and an unlimited supply of diplomatic get-out-of-jail-free cards you'd all do the same crap.

Marines are still fodder though.

I'm not so sure... Along with the rest of Europe we've pretty much given up on imperial ambitions. Peace and quiet is more valued than having the biggest penis, so to say.

If we need something done, we send in the US Marine Corps instead :hide:

[Sarmatian]

This is why I'm glad I'm a pacifist, cause neither the marines nor the army could beat a cold beer and a barbecue on a sunny Saturday.

[Brenus]

“It isn't cool to say things like that just because you are trying to piss people off dude. Have some respect, and don't act like a piece of dung” says the guy who just insults the French on line: “Nice to know that the French really do deserve their reputation”.:laugh4:

[Kralizec]

Vuk, you've never been in the military have you?

Neither have I, but I'm not the one lecturing the people who have.

Also someone who has a habit of making rude and offensive posts doesn't get to complain when others do the same.

[Myth]

I'd just like to point out that by the account of the two brothers, the French attempted to run them over with their rented 4x4 vehicle and when that failed, they stopped and came out swinging. That's when homeboy got his nose broken. The others were shot in the legs as they were coming at the Bulgarians, not as they were running.

Also, these guys were trained skydivers and had equipment for mountaineering and scuba-diving so even if they sucked at CQB they were conditioned pretty well. One of the two brothers said that they "were very well prepared physically" and that "they put up a good fight initially". When the reporter asked him if he and his brother were not dismayed by the numerical disadvantage he stated that they can take a group of up to 7-8 comfortably. Lol.. :laugh4:

[Myth]

No one can beat the Bulgarians.

We were at war with them and they still stand. And if Serbian army can't do it, no one can.

Let's take a look what happened with everyone else foolish enough to pick a fight with us:

1) Byzantium - gone
2) Ottoman Empire - gone
3) Habsburgs - gone
4) Third Reich - gone
5) Soviet Union - gone

So, there's no shame in losing to Bulgarians.

I have huge respect for Serbia. Balkan wars aside, you guys STOOD UP TO THE USA, you took down A STEALTH BOMBER and you danced a reel on top of it. And now, after you've been bombed to oblivion, the highway going to Hungary is spotless and you're building a second one, no EU funds or anything.

[Myth]

I don't think Japan has culled it's ambition. If they had Russia's nuclear arsenal they'd be all over the place.

[Tellos Athenaios]

horrible, utter, soul-crushing defeat--that's what it took for Europe and Japan, after all. :creep:

No.

[Brenus]

"When the reporter asked him if he and his brother were not dismayed by the numerical disadvantage he stated that they can take a group of up to 7-8 comfortably" Well. Even I can do it. Especially as we still don't know from were the bullets are coming from... Give me a Assault Gun with enough munitions, I can take 100 unarmed people. And how the brothers did stop the car? And why? There are a lot of holes in this story. If the French were in the car, how did the brothers know they had dark skin? And I suppose that the gypsies do not rent 4x4 car to steal potatoes...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yes. The only winner in WW2 was the USA. Your entire continent was destroyed, depopulated, and rebuilt by us. That's why you no longer have an appetite for large wars.

Yeah the destruction did a lot to drive a point home. Except 1914-1918 should've done it by that logic.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yeah the destruction did a lot to drive a point home. Except 1914-1918 should've done it by that logic.

WW2 laid waste to civilian population centers on a far larger scale than WW1

[Tellos Athenaios]

True. But my point lies more in what followed, which is where WW1 and WW2 had different outcomes. Destruction alone was not quite enough to dissuade Europeans from going to war, they did fight some fairly bloody wars to retain colonies for instance and plenty volunteered for Korea and Vietnam.

WW2 ended in Liberation, nukes, a complete realignment of power, dismantling of colonial empires, Cold War, Wirtschaftswunder, various European integration/collaboration projects, discrediting of Nazism and related ideologies.

It's not that there weren't "doves" in Europe prior to 1914, or 1939. It's that they were not listened to. But it makes for a different story when there are two vastly more powerful empires using your countries as pieces in their foreign policy, have enough armed forces to enforce their decisions on you and you do need their approval as you cannot do anything alone. Heck the Suez crisis was a nice little Franco-British-Israel vs Egypt match, until ... the USA told them off for threatening their delicate diplomacy with the USSR.

As an added bonus, the threat of nukes.

[Greyblades]

Yeah, but once upon a time Sweden was a fairly successful and violent empire, no?

I'm sure some day we'll settle down too, but not until we've learned the hard way through horrible, utter, soul-crushing defeat--that's what it took for Europe and Japan, after all. :creep:

Huh, so that explains why the UK has so much in common with the USA, we haven't had as bad a defeat as the rest of europe.

[Greyblades]

I highly doubt the scale of defeats in WW2 were the main reason, I think the inability to do much in he world without the threat of nukes from one side or another and the increased prevelance of free media making a lower public tolerance to high casualties and resulting reluctance in publically elected governments were the deciding factors IMO.

[Tellos Athenaios]

That's what I'm saying, though. WW2 drove home to most Europeans the utter fear of war on their own doorstep.

Yeah except none of what I mentioned was actually in WW2. Take your argument again, and apply:

Massive casualties, guaranteed destruction? People knew that going in, those facts were well appreciated even before WW2 due to WW1 and that fear is what drove appeasement policies. It didn't work.
Massive casualties, guaranteed destruction? People knew that going in, those facts were well appreciated even before WW1 due to Napoleonic wars and the proof of concept demonstrated in 1870/71 and that fear is what drove the Concert of Europe. It didn't work.

European foreign policy since Waterloo is predicated on avoiding full scale, all out war on the European mainland.

Ask yourself: the desire was there so why didn't it work? What changed to make it work this time?

Answer #1 everyone was liberated -- nobody was defeated. Even the Germans were liberated, from the Nazis. Perhaps the exception was the "East" bloc, but they suffered the USSR...
Answer #2 European powers were stripped of their power.
Answer #3 new powers rose and they demanded peace & compliance from Europe.
Answer #4 economy (eventually) picked up whilst protectionism and trade disputes were removed.
Answer #5 instead of a tangled web of bilateral agreements something more comprehensive and inclusive was done. The various European projects were deliberately all-inclusive.
... and lot's more.


... Don't get me wrong: the promise of utter ruin is a powerful component of it all. But by itself I don't think it is what made the difference. Make-love-not-war was ultimately an American export, even if it resonated perhaps more strongly in Europe.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Interesting complete analysis. I like it.

But in terms of the American attitude, i think my point still stands. Although we have known "defeat" in far off lands and in limited wars, we have never personally paid the price at home.

I hope that day never comes, but if it does i think it is the only thing that would wake most Americans to the fact that war is hell, and should be avoided.

Yet, you had a bloody Civil War that should have taught you the lesson, with the combined horrors of WWI and II - it didn't work

Fact is, WWI was far worse that WWII - casualties on all sides (except the USSR) were much higher during WWI than WWII and the four years of grinding was destroyed far more overall, and left a greater scar, than the aerial bombing campaigns of WWII.

[Ironside]

Yet, you had a bloody Civil War that should have taught you the lesson, with the combined horrors of WWI and II - it didn't work

Fact is, WWI was far worse that WWII - casualties on all sides (except the USSR) were much higher during WWI than WWII and the four years of grinding was destroyed far more overall, and left a greater scar, than the aerial bombing campaigns of WWII.

On the battlefield area yes. But I don't think Dolchstoßlegende had worked if Belin was shelled.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yet, you had a bloody Civil War that should have taught you the lesson, with the combined horrors of WWI and II - it didn't work

Fact is, WWI was far worse that WWII - casualties on all sides (except the USSR) were much higher during WWI than WWII and the four years of grinding was destroyed far more overall, and left a greater scar, than the aerial bombing campaigns of WWII.

To be honest PVC WW1 was merely a bad case of a normal intra-euro war, casualties might be higher in WW1 but that's for combatants and as a result the didn't tend to come home so people were able to forget/mytholigise that War.

However civilian casaulties allied with widespread destruction on top of combatant deaths means WW2 is far more likley to have softened Europes cough.






edit: the US civil War was easy forgot because in 1860 the population was round 30ish million and by 1890 it had doubled and by 1920 it was into the 100 million mark.

[Kralizec]

Of course saying "except the USSR" makes a huge difference to the picture. Germany also had almost twice as many deaths. The western allies generally had less casualties across the board, that much is true.

That's just military casualties. Civilian casualties overall were far, far higher the second time around for obvious reasons.

As bad as WW1 trench warfare was locally, it happened on a relatively thin strip of land across northern France and through Belgium, and pales in comparison to WW2.

[Montmorency]

Fact is, WWI was far worse that WWII - casualties on all sides (except the USSR) were much higher during WWI than WWII and the four years of grinding was destroyed far more overall, and left a greater scar, than the aerial bombing campaigns of WWII.

Well, I have a few problems with this.

USA and Germany both took (many) more casualties in WW2.

As for damage: WW1 was devastating to a swathe of mostly rural French and Belgian land, and the rest of Western Europe was basically untouched. In WW2, urban Germany was annihilated, to say nothing of refugees and displacement throughout the continent. Whether that's more or less destruction depends on one's interpretation the post-war recovery. Pastorophilia may color it. I note that Western Europe was majority-urban by WW2.

[HoreTore]

Time adds weight (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2025316,00.html) to Strike's claim that Roma will live better lives if they can escape the clutches of Europe and make their way to the New World.

Just as with the Jews: America is the one place in the world where people can be safe and free.

[Major Robert Dump]

What this thread has devolved to is precisely why I took a small vacation and have failed to update my vacation thread. Some of you people exhaust me.