How to play the Seleukids as realistic as possible?

[I_damian]

I'm fairly confident I've got the army composition correct, also the recruitment. I get the "proper" infantry and cavalry, like Klerouchi and Pezhetairoi and the heavy cavalry from the "proper" Greek colonies like Antioch and Seleukia and I get Jewish spearmen and slingers and light cavalry and Persian archers and stuff from the other provinces, but the things I'm unsure of is:

Should I make Seleukia the capital to make the eastern provinces more stable, or would it be more realistic to leave the capital at Antioch and let the eastern provinces rebel and then recapture them? That seems to be how it really was when reading the history of Arche Seleukia.

Also government types. How realistic is it to make Babylon a type 1, rather than leaving it as an ally? How realistic is it to make some of the type 3 governments (like Mazaka in Asia Minor) in to type 2 or even 1?

That's all for now. Thanks in advance.

[Arjos]

The first capital was Seleukeia and only in the middle of the 3rd century BC, Antiocheia became the residence of the Basileus iirc...
Although it wasn't unusual for the ruler to take control of the western territories, while his heir ruled the Upper Satrapies (eastern ones)...

Still most of the time, the Basileus was campaigning anyway. As for letting settlements rebel etc, up to how you want to play the game...

Babylonia shrinked a lot in population, in order to settle and develop Seleukeia, and most of all Nikator was successful in the east, because he allowed great autonomy to the babylonian upper classes, gaining favour and consensus. So I'd leave it as type 3, but one can always change history ;)

Mikra Asia, by the time of Antiochos Megas, was pretty "centralized", Zeuxis was nominated satrap of Lydia and made Viceroy of the whole area. I'd guess you could eventually upgrade it to a type 2, but Mazaka was the capital of Kappadokia, its Basileis were pretty much independent, might even be better to set a type 4 and recruit a local ruler...

[Kralizec]

One of the history buffs wil have to answer this, but it's my impression that there wasn't a real "capital" in the Seleukid kingdom like it's portrayed in RTW. The administration was decentralised, through satrapies. Of course the king was the central authority, but I'm not sure wether there was a permanent court at a physical location.

It was a long time ago, but I think in my Seleukid game I switched the capital to Seleukeia. That was more a monetary decision than anything else though, there are more provinces there so it saves money in garrison costs and tax levels. I changed it back to Antioch when I got my finances in order and started conquering Asia Minor.

I don't know how Babylon was administered by the Seleukids. Generally, I only install III or IV governments if it gets you access to specific units* and IIRC that's not the case for Babylon.

* two exceptions:
- when a newly conquered region is particulary rebellious I often make it a IV with a client ruler at first so that it's more easily subdued
- when an enemy city already has the largest market and most other buildings, and the region doesn't offer any good factional units anyway. Good example: the Koinon Hellenon cities for the eastern Greek factions.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Have a look at the TWC House Rules thread for EB:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=468934

Here's the quote for Arche Seleukia - note the one about moving the faction's capital to whatever city the faction leader is in or nearest to:


1) All types of factional phalanx units should be used.Pantodapoi/Machimoi Phalangitai should be used in every army, even a mobile professional one. Klerouchoi Phalangitai should also be used in most armies, though in slightly lesser numbers than aforementioned levy phalangites (but the ratio can switch to favour the Klerouchoi as the campaign progresses, as more settlers are available). Pezhetairoi should be severely limited for these Eastern Diadochi, and used only in small numbers in mobile armies; the same goes for Elite phalangites. However, when you feel your Empire is large enough, you are allowed to field a single "Royal Elite Grand Army", that has 4 units of Pezhetairoi and 2 units of Elite phalangites in it's ranks
2) Thureophoroi and Thorakitai should be limited in the early game.Peltastai should be your primary javelin/melee troops supporting your Phalanxes. Maybe a single unit of Thureophoroi could be allowed for mobile professional armies, but not for garrisons. I'd even say that Thorakitai should not be used in the early game at all, as they were a late innovation afterall. But as time passes by, you are allowed to gradually increase the number of Thureophoroi, and also add some Thorakitai to your armies
3) Archers and slingers should not be used in any real numbers. As this eastern Diadochi has to face many missile troops, more of those are allowed in their own ranks as well. However, these should primarily be foreigners (Persians etc.) and mercenaries, while the Greek "Psiloi" units mentioned earlier should be limited for this faction as well.
4) Armies should be composed primarily of factional troops.this faction naturally has more leeway in this, as their access to native Greek units is more limited. But still, maybe a maximum of 8 foreign units should be applied to armies operating in your heartlands, and even in remote areas there should always be a few factional units present in every army (so that the foreign mercenaries would always remember who they're fighting for).

My rules for Seleukids, I just sort of went along a mental note never put them in print before, so I might add to them later if I play a campaign.
A Strategos for each Satrapy
Keep the core of the dynasty Makedonian
Allow local Satraps in the eastern Satrapys
A satrap can only campaign against local threats
The Basileus must lead the Royal army on campaign against large foreign threats
Therefore only one full stack of 'Royal army' only
No destroying of enemies, or expanding ahistorically
No reloading battles if defeated
No time travel on campaign map- don't go back to an earlier save- unless CTD
The capitol moves to where the Basilieus is- this helps to simulate revolts that occured when family members or Startegos of satrap knew Basileus was away on campaign
If a Strategos (Satrap) loses his army- cannot take troops from neibouring Satrap, must wait for the Basileus or a high ranking family member

[I_damian]

That's more or less how I've been playing, except for the number of missile troops. In the west I limit myself to only an absolute maximum of two Greek slingers/archers but in the east it just isn't feasible to limit missile units too much as the Pahlava and Saka (who sometimes come down to Seleukid lands) have so many missile troops, so you really have 3 choices fighting them. Have at least 5 units of archers/slingers is one choice, the second is use spies to avoid open battle and fight a war of sieges and city taking so you never have to face their mobile armies, or third choice is to purposely limit your missile troops and lose every battle.

[Kralizec]

Another option would be to use a lot of light cavalry units that have decent armor; i.e. prodromoi. They can catch up with those horse archers and easily beat most of them in melee.

That's more expensive though, and probably less realistic than including extra archers/slingers.

I don't know if it's realistic but when I'm dealing with steppe armies I simply don't bother to include any phalangites at all. They can absorb arrows very well, but that's about it - the infantry units that steppe factions use are generally mediocre or less, so thureophoroi are preferable because they're more mobile and versatile.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I don't know if it's realistic but when I'm dealing with steppe armies I simply don't bother to include any phalangites at all. They can absorb arrows very well, but that's about it - the infantry units that steppe factions use are generally mediocre or less, so thureophoroi are preferable because they're more mobile and versatile.

Levy phalanxes can be useful against the enemy bodyguard cataphracts, because of their armour-piercing axes. But I put them in the rear, with missile troops in front, so when the enemy charges my missile troops withdraw and the enemy cataphracts plough into the phalanx and get bogged down in melee, I then turn phalanx mode off and guard mode off, and the men down their pikes and get stuck in with their axes.

But against light horse archers, phalangites are utterly useless. Especially mine since I've modded their shield value from 5 down to 3 (small shields).

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

More ideas for a realistic Seleucid campaign:

Note: These ideas work fine for Medium campaign, on higher difficulty levels they make things really hard...

1. Don't recruit any new units (except new client rulers) until 270 BC. Spend as much money as possible on construction in the first 7 turns (continuous building in all settlements), try and survive with your starting army until then. (You're a rich and long-established empire, so even your small towns should have all the basic buildings by this time.) Tip: You might need to make peace with the Ptolemies at the start of the campaign, so they attack their Eleutheroi neighbours instead of you. If you give the Ptolemies Damascus, that should be enough to secure a ceasefire.

2. Construction: Buy as many new buildings as possible, every turn, until you achieve the minimum levels below. Buy buildings in the order of the cheapest available building first.

Every Town must have the following as a minimum, keep building continously until you achieve it:

Coastal Clearing if available (500)
Roads (800)
Wooden Palisade (800)
Sacred Enclosure (800)
One Level 1 Barracks, Factional or Foreign (900)
Simple Drainage (1000)
Basic Farming (1200)
City-State Festival (1200)
Trader (2000)

Every Large Town should have the following as a minimum, keep building continously until you achieve it:
Wooden Wall (1600)
Either Sewers OR Sanctuary of Asklepieion (1600)
Game Field (1600)
Small Temple (1600)
Granary (1600)
Two Level 1 Barracks, Factional AND Foreign, OR One Level 2 Barracks (1800)
Trading Dock or River Port (1600)
Emporion - Small Market (3200)
Garrison (2000)

Every City should have the following as a minimum, keep building continously until you achieve it:
Very Productive Farming (2400)
Stone Walls (3200)
Both Sewers AND Sanctuary of Asklepieion (3200)
School (3200)
Temple (3200)
Small Theatre (3200)
Large Garrison (3200)
Agora - Market (4800)
Barracks: Three Levels of Barracks in total. One Level 3, or one Level 1 plus one Level 2.

Every Large City should have the following as a minimum, keep building continously until you achieve it:
Carriage Roads (3200)
Public Bathing Places (3200)
Small Gymnasium (4800)
Blacksmith (4800)
Agora - Market (4800)
Either Regional Games or Regional Festival (4800)
Academy (4800)
Large Granary (6400)
Large Temple (6400)
Large Market (6400)
Barracks: Four Levels of Barracks in total. One Level 4, two Level 2, or one Level 1 plus one Level 3.


3. Your field armies should be one of the following combinations:

Lots of good line infantry, and few long-range missile units (in the West).
Lots of cheap long-range missile units, and cheap mobile line infantry (in the East).

[I_damian]

Hmm, thanks. I especially like the idea about not recruiting any units until 270 bc.