View Full Version : Step to Statehood or Oblivion
HopAlongBunny
11-29-2012, 23:56
Palestine has UN status upgraded.
One may argue that the upgrade could give the Palestinian Authority more levers (peaceful) to make the push to statehood successful. Given the structure of the UN though, it may just heighten everyones frustration with the entire process.
So, are we on the path of peace and plenty for all, or are we weaving a dangerous course which will only lead to violence and disillusion?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20550864
Palestine has UN status upgraded.
First thing that comes to my mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no6EKCYLT7M
Greyblades
11-30-2012, 03:49
Oh good, this should prolong the struggle another good few months.
It's a beautiful thing. :sunny:
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/dailystar/Pictures/2012/11/30/__NIR03_PALESTINIANS-STATEHOOD-UN-VOTE_1129_11_53_634898316831065251_mainimg.jpg
Major Robert Dump
11-30-2012, 04:57
Does this mean they will get a Bureau of Tourism now?
HopAlongBunny
11-30-2012, 06:40
I think its about time Palestine was recognized; although my gov't apparently disagrees.
While the measure certainly makes the quiet elimination of Palestine more difficult, is it enough to halt the process?
I get no inkling that there is any "will to peace" from the US or Israel.
Papewaio
11-30-2012, 07:25
If superpowers at the height of a Cold War could recognise each other and use the UN for dialogue to prevent nuclear war then I cannot see how this is not a good thing.
Giving a voice to a both sides changes this from a monologue to a dialog. The monologue has gone on long enough and it is clear that it hasn't resolved anything. So let them talk, let the world listen and let's see if a peaceful position can be found.
Israel doesn't want to integrate the Palestinians into a Greater Israel, nor does it want them to have their own state. This only leaves one other strategic goal they can have - to have a Greater Israel without any Palestinians in it. The behaviour and policy so far would also be consistent with this.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-quJx-J2P8eE/TnxvKn1MloI/AAAAAAAACpM/BovTN69OFT4/palestinan_map.jpg
Vladimir
11-30-2012, 14:02
So how is this going to affect the rockets targeted at Jerusalem? Will there be more or will they just have more modern guidance systems?
rory_20_uk
11-30-2012, 14:43
I always thing Idaho's diagram says it all: Israel is playing the long game. Taking just a bit more per year but the direction is pretty constant.
~:smoking:
So how is this going to affect the rockets targeted at Jerusalem? Will there be more or will they just have more modern guidance systems?
That kinda conflates Palestine in its totality with just Gaza. When were rockets fired from the West Bank again?
Montmorency
11-30-2012, 14:57
Looking a bit more closely than I had in the past at the map progression, I notice that the Palestinians now 'possess' land they did not 60 years ago, around both the West Bank and Gaza.
Am I merely geometrically confused, or is there a story behind that? Land the Israelis would rather have the Palestinians on? An error on the map creator's part?
All hail Greater Israel! A mere 3,000 homes to be built on Palestinian land and those crazy a-rabs refuse to participate in the peace process. I'm starting to wonder if they actually want peace with Israel. Let's all focus on obscure points in the Hamas political charter - those are the most essential topics we face.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20552391
That kinda conflates Palestine in its totality with just Gaza. When were rockets fired from the West Bank again?
Well, in all honesty the Hamas in Gaza are the only ones that have the balls to act like a real government and actually achieve some results. The Ramallah government is more of a provincial administration with not much political leverage. Seriously, if I were a Palestinian I'd support Hamas and dismiss Fatah as a joke faction that is incapable of achieving any tangible results.
Well, in all honesty the Hamas in Gaza are the only ones that have the balls to act like a real government and actually achieve some results. The Ramallah government is more of a provincial administration with not much political leverage. Seriously, if I were a Palestinian I'd support Hamas and dismiss Fatah as a joke faction that is incapable of achieving any tangible results.
The West Bank is less viable as it has been carved up. You can't travel across it (if you are Palestinian) without lining up at several checkpoints (and the stories about soldiers abusing people at those are grim and depressing). Gaza - while poorer and generally crappier in terms of land and aspect, at least has some freedom of movement within it.
The West Bank is less viable as it has been carved up. You can't travel across it (if you are Palestinian) without lining up at several checkpoints (and the stories about soldiers abusing people at those are grim and depressing). Gaza - while poorer and generally crappier in terms of land and aspect, at least has some freedom of movement within it.
When I was in the West Bank, the Israeli's all had to leave the coach before crossing over into the Palestinian territories and whilst travelling, the only check points we came across were ran by Palestinian soldiers, all wielding SMG's whilst in little huts off the side of the road with the Palestinian flag flying high upon them. Only Israeli checkpoints I saw were at the border crossings into Israel proper and they didn't seem to really bother with the coach.
gaelic cowboy
11-30-2012, 19:57
I always thing Idaho's diagram says it all: Israel is playing the long game. Taking just a bit more per year but the direction is pretty constant.
~:smoking:
Plus I'm pretty sure you will find that Israel essentially closed it's eyes to Hamas early on in order to weaken the PLO.
When I was in the West Bank, the Israeli's all had to leave the coach before crossing over into the Palestinian territories and whilst travelling, the only check points we came across were ran by Palestinian soldiers, all wielding SMG's whilst in little huts off the side of the road with the Palestinian flag flying high upon them. Only Israeli checkpoints I saw were at the border crossings into Israel proper and they didn't seem to really bother with the coach.
Were you on the Jews only roads?
Israel doesn't want to integrate the Palestinians into a Greater Israel, nor does it want them to have their own state. This only leaves one other strategic goal they can have - to have a Greater Israel without any Palestinians in it. The behaviour and policy so far would also be consistent with this.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-quJx-J2P8eE/TnxvKn1MloI/AAAAAAAACpM/BovTN69OFT4/palestinan_map.jpg
Weirdest ethnic cleansing ever than as the Palestinian population is now 4 times as big as it was 50 years ago. At least.
HoreTore
12-01-2012, 11:13
Weirdest ethnic cleansing ever than as the Palestinian population is now 4 times as big as it was 50 years ago. At least.
I'm puzzled. Is this statement caused by:
1. Frags pulling numbers out of his behind yet again?
2. Frags have read some "quality media who tells the truth", who pull numbers out of their behinds, and presented their lies as facts?
The populstion of the british mandate of palestine in 1945 was 1.7 million. The population in the west bank is about 2 millin, while it's a little over 1.5 mill in gaza, giving 3.5-ish million.
You've got to show me how you managed to calculate 1.7 x 4 = 3.5!
I'm puzzled. Is this statement caused by:
1. Frags pulling numbers out of his behind yet again?
2. Frags have read some "quality media who tells the truth", who pull numbers out of their behinds, and presented their lies as facts?
The populstion of the british mandate of palestine in 1945 was 1.7 million. The population in the west bank is about 2 millin, while it's a little over 1.5 mill in gaza, giving 3.5-ish million.
You've got to show me how you managed to calculate 1.7 x 4 = 3.5!
The Palestines are among highest breeders of the world it isn't uncommon that a family has over 10 children.
Söhne und Weltmacht, Gunnar Heinsohn 2003
HoreTore
12-01-2012, 11:31
The Palestines are among highest breeders of the world it isn't uncommon that a family has over 10 children.
Söhne und Weltmacht, Gunnar Heinsohn 2003
So, that's how you got numbers who are completely wrong?
When even the books you read are insane and wrong, perhaps you should reconsider the way you obtain information...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories
Weirdest genocide ever
Might have something to do with nationality. It could be that until 1967, Palestinians in the West Bank were regarded as Jordanians. Dunno.
Might have something to do with nationality. It could be that until 1967, Palestinians in the West Bank were regarded as Jordanians. Dunno.
There is a sharp rise during the Libanon war, so that's possibe. But overall it looks pretty consistant
HoreTore
12-01-2012, 12:13
Who are you arguing against, frags? Who has claimed the palestinian population is declining? The post you replied to was about land, not people.
Probably because they're not allowed to have jobs so they have nothing better to do than make children.
Edit: So you admit your numbers were wrong, HoreTore?
Who are you arguing against, frags? Who has claimed the palestinian population is declining? The post you replied to was about land, not people.
Israel doesn't want to integrate the Palestinians into a Greater Israel, nor does it want them to have their own state. This only leaves one other strategic goal they can have - to have a Greater Israel without any Palestinians in it. The behaviour and policy so far would also be consistent with this.
Not so consistant. The ethnic cleansing that is hinted at has this unique quality of populations decreasing, in great contrast with populations growing. Also the Palestinians who live in Israel are thriving, weirdest ethnic cleansing ever.
Probably because they're not allowed to have jobs so they have nothing better to do than make children.
Edit: So you admit your numbers were wrong, HoreTore?
That is also what Heinson argues, if you don't get a lot of kids they are less likely to be sacrificed in a needless spiral of violence. They can get so many kids because they are at the tit of just about everything aid-industry. It cannot be sustained. All aid but food should be stopped at once and and carefully rationed so this unnatural situation ceases to exist.
Israel doesn't want to integrate the Palestinians into a Greater Israel, nor does it want them to have their own state. This only leaves one other strategic goal they can have - to have a Greater Israel without any Palestinians in it. The behaviour and policy so far would also be consistent with this.
Not so consistant. The ethnic cleansing that is hinted at has this unique quality of populations decreasing, in great contrast with populations growing. Also the Palestinians who live in Israel are thriving, weirdest ethnic cleansing ever.
Thriving? Very much second class citizens alas.
Also the Palestinians who live in Israel are thriving, weirdest ethnic cleansing ever.
Define Israel.
Define Israel.
The part we call Israel, more than a million Arabs live in it, whole districts in Tel Aviv. Weirdest ethnic cleaning ever
I wonder, have you seen Jaffa?
I wonder, have you seen Jaffa?
No, but it's on my wishlist
Kralizec
12-02-2012, 20:20
Ethnic cleansing is a much broader term than genocide. It also includes expelling people from their land based on their identity, i.e. what happened in 1948.
Nowadays Israel does evict people from their lands and colonises their land with settlers. Allthough repugnant I would not use the label "ethnic cleansing" in this case.
But the label is neither here nor there because nobody used the term in this thread until Frag came up with it.
The part we call Israel, more than a million Arabs live in it, whole districts in Tel Aviv. Weirdest ethnic cleaning ever
Fragony, Fragony, Fragony... in 1947 there were less than 2 million people in the whole country. Populations have boomed across the world. Talking in terms of absolute population, rather than relative, is beyond incorrect, and well over the statistical foul line. Less than a million Palestinians were displaced in 1948. But this amounted to almost half the population of the country at that time. Those 700,000 odd are now 6 million plus in "refugee camps" (essentially towns populated by displaced people with no right of return and an expectation from Israel that they will just all go elsewhere and forget.
A reasonable population overview:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story574.html
I would't really call displaced, a lot fled because of the war, and a lot were driven out by jewish militia's. But that happens in every war. Not a war Israel asked for. A whole lot of Palestinians are also really from Libanon mind you
I would't really call displaced, a lot fled because of the war, and a lot were driven out by jewish militia's. But that happens in every war. Not a war Israel asked for. A whole lot of Palestinians are also really from Libanon mind you
Fled or driven out by militias, then not allowed back while Jewish families were given their houses, farms and land. Could you imagine how you would feel if you lived in a crappy suburb of Antwerp, unable to go back to the country your family came from, to the house your parents were born in, in Holland?
Fled or driven out by militias, then not allowed back while Jewish families were given their houses, farms and land. Could you imagine how you would feel if you lived in a crappy suburb of Antwerp, unable to go back to the country your family came from, to the house your parents were born in, in Holland?
Having to live in Antwerp would sure make me feel bad, but there's a whole lot more going on there. The palestinians are playball of radical islam, it's the radical islam that doesn't want this to end because that's inconvenient to their cause. Who attacked who, with what they thought was an absolute guarenty for succes, just about the entire arab world bringing in brute force. Failed miserably, and they even now refuse to relieve the situation and taking the 'Palestians' back, and leave feeding them to the West making them the most obese and fastgrowing population in just about the whole world because of the billions of aid they get. Sorry, no.
There is so much wrong with that, that I don't know where to begin.
Kralizec
12-03-2012, 15:31
Back on topic...
Israel has formally committed itself to a two-state solution in the Oslo accords. The current government is filled mostly with parties who oppose the idea, but in their capacity as the government they've not put it off the table. Frankly, it shouldn't be that hard. The border would still be in dispute after you recognise them as an independant state, and would still have to be negotiated.
Getting their status upgrade is largely a symbolic move. Israel's position is apparently that self-determination, sovereign territory and international recognition thereof is not necessarily something that all people should deserve, and blocking it for the Palestinians is a legitimate strategy.
I don't see any reasonable argument in favour of such a view. I don't think the rest of the world does, either. The reason why the US voted no, and most of Europe abstained, is that it would harm the peace progress. Why does it harm the peace process? Because Israel is annoyed by the move. We should not show (or feign) understanding to someone when it's crystal clear that his objections are utterly wrong and immoral.
One objection I've heard is that with their new status under UN law they could refer Israel's actions to the ICC, and apparently one condition that France asked in return for a yes-vote was that Palestine would not do so. I personally wouldn't see anything wrong with that (referring acts of Israel to the ICC, that is), but it's at least an argument with practical substance.
Sorry, but as an American I have no particular stake in the future of the Palestinian people, and I am all done with our onetime ally, Israel. I'm with Sully (http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/12/israel-undermines-israels-best-friend.html) on this one:
From the Iron Dome out, Obama has had Israel's back for the last two months—and, to any fair observer, for the past four years. But again and again, Netanyahu's treatment of Obama (and Americans) is best described as contempt. At what point has Israel asked how it can help its chief ally these past few years? Never. [...] Israel is no longer an ally, it seems to me. It is, at best, a subsidized, spoiled child that cannot resist acting out.
Israel at this point is nothing but a political liability for us.
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