View Full Version : Taking 'Rape Culture' a tad too far
http://www.blogher.com/rape-jokes-and-oatmeal
I think there are problems with the feminism movement, and censoring a harmless cartoon over a perceived 'normalisation of rape culture', is something that is quite frankly, ridiculous.
Didn't know whether to post this in News of the Weird or here, but it didn't seem that out there compared to the stuff posted there, so its here.
rory_20_uk
12-11-2012, 13:15
Yes, it has gone far too far.
But exactly is a "rape culture" for starters?
~:smoking:
Are we talking about the circular reasoning of an F5 tornado here or are we dealing with feminists
Greyblades
12-11-2012, 14:18
I've been thinking recently that there are some feminists who have lost the plot a bit, suppose that's true of pretty much every "faction", but this is getting silly.
Yes, it has gone far too far.
But exactly is a "rape culture" for starters?
~:smoking:
Rape culture is used to describe a culture that normalises rape.
They're saying this comic normalises (condones) rape, therefore it contributes to rape culture.
It's a feminism thing.
I think they're in need of a good warm loving consensual hug.
The linked source is unfortunately correct. Rape has hit as a mainstream on the internet, especially in FPS's where males players regularly "rape" eachother, forced to endure "tea bagging" and told to "lube up their fartpipe". A lot of homoerotic terms for having non-consensual sexual relations with another male. I think it says far more about the person using the terms though than any victims.
Rape is about the dominance over another person, taking them against their will, humiliating and violating them. It really is a disgusting act and you don't really need me to tell you that.
'Rape Culture' is too strong, there are such things as a 'rape culture' and they are described in the article itself but it is not applicable in this case/ It is where 'Rape' is encouraged and supported, hidden behind closed doors, with passive consent of those involved. Like with Jimmy Saville, he was allowed to take little girls and have his wicked way with them in a back-room whilst the vulnerable kids home got a big influx of charity funding.
What is it is trivialisation of the term 'Rape'. Think of my first example, then think of the example the otherday that Fragony linked where women and young girls were mass gang-raped by a group of men. Imagine the two atmosphere's, they are completely not the same, yet the same term is being used. When rape was first being mentioned, did you imagine your FPS buddies or did you imagine a beaten and bloody person getting abused and violated?
Greyblades
12-11-2012, 14:54
I think they're in need of a good warm loving consensual hug.
Well, and here I thought my dislike for RVG would stay rooted in political connotations.
Well, and here I thought my dislike for RVG would stay rooted in political connotations.
I'm pretty sure he is joking. From what I've seen of his views and posts, he isn't stupid.
Greyblades
12-11-2012, 15:08
Oh good, instead of a pariah to be.
Oh good, instead of a pariah to be
You've never laughed at a racist joke, or the like?
Let it go, the mods will clear it up anyway.
Greyblades
12-11-2012, 15:18
If this was a joke about a man waking up to find he was date raped by a polar bear, that's funny, unless you are drunk to the point of near unconsciousness joking that someone needs to be raped is the sort of thing that gets you rightfully thrown out of the social circle.
Hooahguy
12-11-2012, 15:21
The writer of the Oatmeal took down the panel in question. But I think its pretty ridiculous. I dont see it as advocating rape in any way shape or form.
If this was a joke about a man waking up to find he was date raped by a polar bear, that's funny, unless you are drunk to the point of near unconsciousness joking that someone needs to be raped is the sort of thing that gets you rightfully thrown out of the social circle.
Depends on the social circle itself. I would argue the tone of the backroom is that which indulges in jokes of poor taste at least on occasion.
Yes, it has gone far too far.
But exactly is a "rape culture" for starters?
~:smoking:
something that exists....in the minds of crazy feminists.
The writer of the Oatmeal took down the panel in question. But I think its pretty ridiculous. I dont see it as advocating rape in any way shape or form.
Not advocating, trivialising. The article simply took something like Oatmeal which has a deal of popularity to make a broader point on society itself. I feel the article goes a little too far because it is clear that the artist disapproves of rape wouldn't partake in a 'rape culture' which was thrown in, but it does take the word in a trivial light.
something that exists....in the minds of crazy feminists.
No, it does exist. Just in specific circumstances and not in 'general'. For example, Jack Straw about a grooming scandal (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9570189/Jack-Straw-Pakistani-community-must-face-up-to-grooming-scandal-following-Rochdale-case.html). Though that mostly goes on about race, there was the whole element of a underground culture in the Asian community involving sexual abuse and rape (especially, white females).
Oh good, instead of a pariah to be.
Delicious self-righteous rage. Keep it coming.
Greyblades
12-11-2012, 15:49
To be selfrighteous I would have to be the only one annoyed, I direct you to your now edited-by-mod post, you yawping misanthrope.
No, it does exist. Just in specific circumstances and not in 'general'. For example, Jack Straw about a grooming scandal (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9570189/Jack-Straw-Pakistani-community-must-face-up-to-grooming-scandal-following-Rochdale-case.html). Though that mostly goes on about race, there was the whole element of a underground culture in the Asian community involving sexual abuse and rape (especially, white females).
a culture is by definition something that is widespread in a society....if it is not 'general' then it's not a culture.
by that same logic I could say that:
a) female genital mutilation is generally condemned.
b) male genital mutilation is sometimes laughed at.
and present this as proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muuFygvXPAM
based on this I now support that there is a "male genital mutilation culture".......which of course is ridiculous, it's just a small group of idiots making a joke out of something serious.
...you yawping misanthrope.
Thumbs up on using big words. Thumbs down on using them where they don't apply. Keep practicing, practice makes perfect.
Greyblades
12-11-2012, 15:58
a culture is by definition something that is widespread in a society....if it is not 'general' then it's not a culture.
by that same logic I could say that:
a) female genital mutilation is generally condemned.
b) male genital mutilation is sometimes laughed at.
and present this as proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muuFygvXPAM
based on this I now support that there is a "male genital mutilation culture".......which of course is ridiculous, it's just a small group of idiots making a joke out of something serious.
Weeeeell... there is a huge prevalence in the media for comedic nut-shots.
Thumbs up on using big words. Thumbs down on using them where they don't apply. Oh, but I think they do. A coarse life hater fits you down to a tee.
Oh, but I think...
No, you clearly do not.
Greyblades
12-11-2012, 16:14
No, you clearly do not.
Cute.
a culture is by definition something that is widespread in a society....if it is not 'general' then it's not a culture
Common-usage definition: a culture is a group of individuals creating a social environment where certain activities and actions are considered the norm.
Technically, it would be classified as a subculture.
Major Robert Dump
12-11-2012, 16:53
BooHoos all around.
When making a joke about something villifies you as much as actually doing it, well, let me just roll my eyes and say "First worlders and their first world problems....."
In most Humor versus Concerned Citizens situations, the funny wins.
I am also concerned that the people objecting to The Oatmeal seem to believe that your average fourteen-year-old boy can't tell the difference between a face-hump in Halo and a real-world sex crime. People are a little more sophisticated than that—yes, even young males who play video games.
In most Humor versus Concerned Citizens situations, the funny wins.
Only if you have latent rapist tendencies. You sir are a sociopathic beast that needs to be preemptively locked up before you rape someone.
But don't take my word for it, listen to the experts (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/08/13).
Montmorency
12-11-2012, 20:38
The big argument by the opponents of 'rape jokes' seems to be that making light of rape in one context develops (while being also reflective of) a widespread indifference of or tolerance toward rape in all other contexts, including the criminal context.
Hence:
If we didn’t live in a culture where rape was constantly aided and abetted, a culture where rape is so normalized that we think nothing of making light of it, a culture where rape victims are frequently hushed up, dismissed or outright disbelieved, this comic would never have been made. This comic is a product of rape culture and it perpetuates rape culture. The message that this comic sent out to The Oatmeal’s nearly 800,000 Facebook fans (and the myriad other readers who follow the comic on Twitter or directly on The Oatmeal’s website) is that rape is no big deal.[...]The message that this comic sent out to The Oatmeal’s nearly 800,000 Facebook fans (and the myriad other readers who follow the comic on Twitter or directly on The Oatmeal’s website) is that rape is no big deal.
But I'm not convinced that this is so. Would the cessation of using "rape" outside the criminal context be indicative of a society where rape victims are more successful in prosecuting their rapists, or where rape victims are treated 'more correctly'? I'm not convinced. Perhaps there is a case to be made, but I've never seen it made. I've only seen it described, stated, and restated, and...unfortunately, outrage and "contempt" are not arguments of themselves.
Tangentially: Would there develop a widespread 'murder culture' if young adults and teenagers are permitted to continue making death-threats to each other in videogame play and sports competition? Will murder one day become trivialized? Are we encouraging prospective killers to become confident in the knowledge that their crime, should they commit it, will be treated casually, or not even recognized as a crime? Are we abetting the next generation of violent killers?
Perhaps its an unfair comparison? Convince me. I've hardly put together a comprehensive or even coherent argument for my own denial (if anyone would like to adopt and modify it...). We need some more blood on the opposing side anyway, as this thread is almost unanimous in its rejection of the Oatmeal controversy. That Subotan fellow - if anyone remembers him - should be called in.
a culture is by definition something that is widespread in a society....if it is not 'general' then it's not a culture.
For the record, that's hooey and Beskar is correct on this point. Even a family is a culture.
For the record, that's hooey and Beskar is correct on this point. Even a family is a culture.
In that case the term "culture of rape" loses its meaning as something that pertains to the society at large and as such becomes irrelevant.
Montmorency
12-11-2012, 20:49
All it means is that culture has a very broad meaning and one should be specific as to what level one speaks of.
Culture isn't only on the smallest scale. It just exists as a concept on all scales. But it's certainly an interesting question - on what scale would we describe these terms a priori?
There's certainly a rape culture of some sort out there, I suppose. Probably a feminist could on the terms I've presented describe it as being bolstered by a large-scale societal trivialization through humor. In this formulation, the "rape culture" isn't something that pervades the entire society but is instead discrete, though tacitly supported by [the society]. My complaint doesn't really change, though.
Numbers matter imho. You can find rapists in the West where people get teabagged while playing Halo. That's hardly an endorsement of rape by society. Those who think otherwise generally end up behind bars, on the receiving end of the equation.
On the other hand you have places like sunny Pakistan where the word "rape" is pretty much taboo, but women repeatedly get raped with impunity thanks to the Hudud laws. Now that to me is a culture of rape. Not l33tK1lL4boY typing "i r4p3zd u" in Halo chat.
Montmorency
12-11-2012, 21:30
There are ambiguous cases like Japan, which, if the pornography, film, and animation is anything to go by, has a quite vibrant rape culture in the BlogHer-sense.
The reported rape rates are among the lowest in the world, per capita. Then again, it could be argued that almost all go unreported. Perhaps, like in Pakistan, patriarchalism allows for what in the West would be considered rape legally-speaking - a casual rape that is essentially disregard for the woman's sentiments. Further, women would be less likely to report sexual misconduct... Then again, Japan as a whole is looking rather sexless these days...
In addition, there's China. I'm sure we all remember the Chinese-American wife-beating scandal and the debate it raised over the proper conduct of women in China.
That all could be spun as an endorsement of the Western situation - that women 'have it good here', so to speak. Then, feminists would argue that it could and should be better...
ACIN, you seem to have known Subotan well. You should make the call. I also anticipate Horetore as endorsing the feminist side. There's a limit to what I can come up with.
That all could be spun as an endorsement of the Western situation - that women 'have it good here', so to speak.
How is it a spin? Is it an exaggeration to state that women's rights are generally well respected in the West?
Then, feminists would argue that it could and should be better...
In this particular case they are chasing shadows. Women's rights could use some more improvement, but this whole "culture of rape" nonsense is hardly a constructive way of advancing women's issues.
Papewaio
12-11-2012, 22:31
To resolve an issue you need to accurately identify it.
Being to broad in scope will not help increase accuracy, it's using a sledgehammer to remove a wart.
Now I think using the term rape as a substitute for win is pretty pathetic and underscores how much a loser the person uses it in recreational activities. To have the pinnacle of their recreational achievement is to rape a fellow RPS player or tea bag them is not supportinpg violent real life rape, it is supporting moronic virtual world lack of wit.
I'd like a bit of poetic justice where the moronic RPS rape get hit on their credit card for an auto donation to their local women's shelter. A fool and their money should be parted promptly and in a manner benefitting society rather then letting poker machines do the deduction.
However I don't actually think these gamers make the connection between how they utilize the word in games vs real world situations. Many words in the English language have multiple meanings and depend on the context of where they are used.
Do I think they use it in bad taste, yes.
Do I think after the first three times that it is repeative and showing a lack of wit, yes.
Do I think they are supporting a real world dilution of the rape term? Potentially.
If my son ever did this, I would be having a chat with him about what it means in the real world. How that some fellow gamers may in fact been molested, assaulted or raped and that even potential support of a horrible real world crime is beneath him.
a completely inoffensive name
12-12-2012, 03:14
ACIN, you seem to have known Subotan well. You should make the call.
Me and Subotan are friends to the extent we know each others RL identities, but I don't know how I would feel sending a message over steam (and its been a while since we talked) asking him to come comment about rape culture. Especially since as you acknowledge this thread is mostly leaning towards one side, I don't see how he would enjoy arguing with a bunch of made up minds. I doubt RVG is willing to change his view. It just seems to be a weird request to make.
I will get back to this thread if I do decide to message him.
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 03:23
I recalled the feminism thread from this January/February. :shrug:
This (http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/ejournal/issues/volume1issue1/gray/)is an interesting read.
Tsujo vs fushizen: that clarifies a distinction I made earlier. It seems the Japanese situation is as bad as we'd all suspected.
CountArach
12-12-2012, 05:56
So many posts here are missing the point, so I'm just going to quote it again:
Not advocating, trivialising.
If we derive humour from rape, that is to say if rape becomes a punchline, not only do we trivialise one of the worst things that can happen to a person, but said event can also be triggering for anyone who has been raped. You do not know if this cartoon triggered any rape victims and if it made any of them relive the event for event the second then that is just tragic.
Those who are affected can decide whether something is offensive or not - not people wrapped in their own privelege.
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 06:27
If we derive humour from rape, that is to say if rape becomes a punchline, not only do we trivialise one of the worst things that can happen to a person
But so what?
You do not know if this cartoon triggered any rape victims and if it made any of them relive the event for event the second then that is just tragic.
As in, rape humor should be set apart from other potentially-offensive modes of humor because of its greater capacity to cause crippling psychological distress among a rather large demographic? I suppose there are more who have been raped or endured a friend or relative's rape than can be said for either murder or genocide - the automatic discrimination between those with and without Internet connections would heighten the effect, even. Well, that's something to consider.
Those who are affected can decide whether something is offensive or not - not people wrapped in their own privelege.
Let the content-creators (don't take the term too seriously, please) judge their own audiences. :shrug:
Major Robert Dump
12-12-2012, 07:47
Personally, I think the Rap Culture is ruining America's youth, it's the worst thing we can export short of Paris Hilton dance music, and to be honest I really don't care much for any of the music since Vanilla Ice, who basically invented the Rap Culture
a completely inoffensive name
12-12-2012, 09:59
So many posts here are missing the point, so I'm just going to quote it again:
If we derive humour from rape, that is to say if rape becomes a punchline, not only do we trivialise one of the worst things that can happen to a person, but said event can also be triggering for anyone who has been raped. You do not know if this cartoon triggered any rape victims and if it made any of them relive the event for event the second then that is just tragic.
Those who are affected can decide whether something is offensive or not - not people wrapped in their own privelege.
This argument extends to any humour derived from suffering.
Kralizec
12-12-2012, 10:07
It's a joke, get over it.
Just to be clear: does any of you think that cartoons like in the OP (for example) should be legally forbidden?
Otherwise, I don't see the point of discussion, since debating wether something is funny or just plain insensitive is rather futile.
The author of that comic should have stood his ground. As he said, he made jokes about genocide and a host of other sensitive issues and never took any of those down - apparently because there never were enough complaints. Meh.
a completely inoffensive name
12-12-2012, 10:25
I want those who would argue for not making the joke to comment on how this differs from the whole "We can't produce images of Muhammad because it offends Muslims". I don't recall the thread but from what I remember there was almost no one who agreed we should limit our free speech to accommodate angry muslims.
Major Robert Dump
12-12-2012, 13:27
Well personally I would not make the joke because it is not funny, but zowwie do I have some real rapey zingers waiting for the right moment.
I really don't think this is an issue in the states aside from angering over zealous crusaders who want to instill male guilt every chance they get. The problem, imo, comes when we get to our euro neighbors who outright criminalize certain topics of speech, and I am not just referring to the holocaust/nazi thing (godwin, tyvm) but recently in the UK there have been several instances of people saying offensive things online or wearing offensive shirts and being prosecuted and convicted. The next logical step in that regard is to criiminalize jokes about rape.....
If we derive humour from rape, that is to say if rape becomes a punchline, not only do we trivialise one of the worst things that can happen to a person...
We derive humor from rape. We derive humor from 9/11. We derive humor from just about anything. Nothing wrong with that, it's human nature.
...but said event can also be triggering for anyone who has been raped. You do not know if this cartoon triggered any rape victims and if it made any of them relive the event for event the second then that is just tragic. Yes, God forbid someone's precious feelings get hurt. We can't have that. Well, you know what, yesterday I overloaded on pizza, and it was ugly. Worst night of my life. I fear that any discussion involving pizza might cause me to relive the event. So no more p-word in here.
Those who are affected can decide whether something is offensive or not - not people wrapped in their own privelege.
People who find something offensive are free to get offended. That's all.
Major Robert Dump
12-12-2012, 15:45
If the majority of rape victims were males, I find it hard to believe that any of this would even be an issue
Greyblades
12-12-2012, 16:51
We trivialize a lot of things, the difference here is that the victims usually survive, are quite vocal (or have people being vocal for them) and are instantly and greatly sympathetic, so when one gets offended they get a lot of people immediately taking their side, regardless of the legitimacy of the perceived offense.
Of course when we have people who think "this person needs to be raped" is a joke the offended party start making sense.
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 20:44
I want those who would argue for not making the joke to comment on how this differs from the whole "We can't produce images of Muhammad because it offends Muslims".
Hasn't Arach?
On one hand, rape victims may potentially be induced to 'relive' their experiences, while on the other some Muslims will become further disillusioned with Western society while some already radical ones will add the material to an already extensive list of casi belli. Most wouldn't care should they hear of it.
People who find something offensive are free to get offended. That's all.
Rape is a pretty traumatic experience and can create PTSD-like symptoms in the victims. The thing is, a joke may do much more than cause offense - particularly one that is graphically depicted. This means some sensitivity is required when determining what sort of audience the joke will or should have. Elaborating a graphical rape joke to a large and variegated group of women, for example, would simply be misogynistic cruelty.
The point being, no 'sacrifice of free speech' need be made; the situation merely calls for considered and selective self-censorship to avoid being a crass hyena, which we all practice to a very great extent anyway.
Feminist counterargument to my position: This leads to a situation in which female rape victims are tacitly discriminated against and automatically made to feel unwelcome in an array of contexts. Shoving the issue aside in this manner does a disservice to the victims and only serves to suppress the awareness of rape as a serious issue in the country and world. This contributes to a condition of greater inequality than existed even prior to the enactment of the 'policy'.
On the other hand: The mere mention of the word rape, I'm given to understand, is not usually enough to trigger "flashbacks" or cause psychosomatic symptoms. If any type of humor should receive this sort of consideration, it should be the graphical one alone. As for creating an unwelcome environment and submerging the problem (of rape), well, why would this be true for rape humor and women than for a demographic and humor that lampoons that demographic? Can it be demonstrated that this is substantially the case for, say, Muslims and anti-Muslim humor? Relatives of murder victims and murder humor? Certainly it does not seem that Holocaust humor has created or is reflective of a society in which genocide is trivialized and ignored, or wherein the victims of genocide are marginalized and made to set aside a crucial part of their self-identity... And so on. If not, then why would the issue of rape be any different?
the situation merely calls for considered and selective self-censorship to avoid being a crass hyena, which we all practice to a very great extent anyway.
There will always be namby-pamby nancies who'd take offense even at a very reasonable and harmless humor. I would certainly never self-censor in order to accommodate them. Screw them.
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 21:14
There will always be namby-pamby nancies who'd take offense even at a very reasonable and harmless humor. I would certainly never self-censor in order to accommodate them. Screw them.
Sure you do. You censor yourself according to the social context all the time.
You don't tell your kids raunchy sex-jokes, right?
Greyblades
12-12-2012, 21:19
There will always be namby-pamby nancies who'd take offense even at a very reasonable and harmless humor.
Pity you never use any.
You don't tell your kids raunchy sex-jokes, right?
We're not talking about kids. We're talking about adult men with sensibilities of prissy schoolgirls.
Pity you never use any.
That's okay, Nancy. You know how to use the ignore list, don't you?
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 21:26
We're talking about adult men with sensibilities of prissy schoolgirls.
:inquisitive:
When was that established?
:inquisitive:
When was that established?
Earlier in this thread.
Greyblades
12-12-2012, 21:30
That's okay, Nancy. You know how to use the ignore list, don't you?
I dont want to, beacuse dispite my disagreements with your world views I still find your contributions to discussion interesting to read and consider, it's just in this you've been an unrepentant nincompoop.
Unrepentant what? Just an FYI, insults lose a lot of their zing if they have to be googled.
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 21:39
Earlier in this thread.
What do you imagine the subject of this discussion to be? Unless you're just making a veiled jibe at certain commenters?
What do you imagine the subject of this discussion to be? Unless you're just making a veiled jibe at certain commenters?
Veiled? There's nothing veiled about it. Thread starts normally, then I make a comment and it explodes. Anyway, maybe we're discussing different things here. What were you referring to?
Greyblades
12-12-2012, 21:43
Unrepentant what? Just an FYI, insults lose a lot of their zing if they have to be googled.
Instead of defending your position you attack my terminology and sidestep the issue, acting as if the very idea you are in the wrong is inconceivable. Add that to saying someone needs to be raped and playing it off as a joke makes you unrepentant.
Instead of defending your position you attack my terminology and sidestep the issue
There is no issue to sidestep.
and act as if the very idea you are in the wrong is inconceivable.
If you think I'm wrong, then prove it. So far you've proved nothing.
Add that to saying someone needs to be raped and playing it off as a joke makes you unrepentant
Like I said, the ignore list is there for a reason. Protect your innocence. Nourish that flower...
:laugh4:
Greyblades
12-12-2012, 22:04
If you think I'm wrong, then prove it. So far you've proved nothing.
Do I really have to explain why saying someone undeserving should be raped makes you wrong? It's so ingraned into nearly every society that the suggestion that you do not know implies you are either stupid or cruel, something that I do not like to assume about someone.
Like I said, the ignore list is there for a reason. Protect your innocence. Nourish that flower...
:laugh4:
And as I said: that would restrict me from benefiting from your discourse in other threads, something I dont want.
You want to reserve your raight so say horrible things, fine, I reserve my right to call you out on it.
Do I really have to explain why saying someone undeserving should be raped makes you wrong? It's so ingraned into nearly every society that the suggestion that you do not know implies you are either stupid or cruel, something that I do not like to assume about someone.
You took my statement seriously and yet you're calling me stupid (or cruel). That's hilarious (and a cruel joke all at the same time).
I reserve my right to call you out on it.
You're not calling me out on anything. The only thing you are calling out is your prudish lack of sense of humor.
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 22:23
You're not calling me out on anything. The only thing you are calling out is your prudish lack of sense of humor.
'Some person should be raped. BAM! I nailed that joke! I so nailed it!'
Where's the structure? Where's the punchline? What's the payoff?
I give this joke a 1/10.
'Some person should be raped. BAM! I nailed that joke! I so nailed it!'
Where's the structure? Where's the punchline? What's the payoff?
I give this joke a 1/10.
Do you recognize it as a joke, or do you think I was literal?
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 22:29
Black people are criminals! JK LOL
I'll take your word that it was meant as a joke, but I hope you're not proud of its superb craftsmanship or comedic content. It just comes off as bizarre passive-aggression.
I'll take your word that it was meant as a joke...
You'll take my word for it? Seriously?
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 22:38
What makes humor humor more than intent?
If we're looking at structure alone, then your statement clearly doesn't qualify as a joke of any sort.
Papewaio
12-12-2012, 22:46
I want those who would argue for not making the joke to comment on how this differs from the whole "We can't produce images of Muhammad because it offends Muslims". I don't recall the thread but from what I remember there was almost no one who agreed we should limit our free speech to accommodate angry muslims.
Pretty simple. I can show you a rape victim. You cannot show me God.
Until you show me god, making fun of him is a victimless crime.
What makes humor humor more than intent?
If we're looking at structure alone, then your statement clearly doesn't qualify as a joke of any sort.
What's wrong with the structure?
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 23:22
There is none! It's on the level of a Tourette's-addled child yelling out slurs at random intervals. It's a "joke" more in the style of Epic Movie or Adam Sandler than anything else.
There is none! It's on the level of a Tourette's-addled child yelling out slurs at random intervals. It's a "joke" more in the style of Epic Movie or Adam Sandler than anything else.
Can you apply this statement to mine and specifically show how it's "on the level of a Tourette's-addled child yelling out slurs at random intervals"?
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 23:43
You see a substantive difference between 'Wouldn't it be funny if feminists were raped?" and a child saying a naughty word, deriving humor from its naughtiness?
You see a substantive difference between 'Wouldn't it be funny if feminists were raped?" and a child saying a naughty word, deriving humor from its naughtiness?
No. But then again 'Wouldn't it be funny if feminists were raped?" was not what I said. You haven't read my original statement, have you?
Montmorency
12-12-2012, 23:54
I'll admit that
I think they're in need of a good
is all I have had the opportunity to see. Though I notice you didn't object to
'Some person should be raped...
I don't think I have seriously misunderstood the original post. If you believe I have, feel free to PM me the full line.
I don't think I have seriously misunderstood the original post. If you believe I have, feel free to PM me the full line.
My original statement was "I think they're in need of a corrective rape." What is strange to me is that you went off about what I posted without knowing what I posted.
Papewaio
12-13-2012, 00:22
My original statement was "I think they're in need of a corrective rape." What is strange to me is that you went off about what I posted without knowing what I posted.
What is a corrective rape? Are you advocating an act of violence and domination to not only humiliate someone but to change their opinion? So not only physically rape them but take away their independence and ability to voice anger over rape too?
What is a corrective rape?
I presumed it was well known... It's a practice in South Africa used to "cure" lesbians. By gang-raping them. I thought that the sheer ridiculousness of the phrase will leave little doubt about the fact that my statement was made in jest.
...statement was made in jest.
That was no inclination of jest in the statement. Even if you put "lol JK!" in Mont's examples, it would be very...wry.
That was no inclination of jest in the statement. Even if you put "lol JK!" in Mont's examples, it would be very...wry.
Like I said... That diamond might be ready by now.
Papewaio
12-13-2012, 00:40
I presumed it was well known... It's a practice in South Africa used to "cure" lesbians. By gang-raping them. I thought that the sheer ridiculousness of the phrase will leave little doubt about the fact that my statement was made in jest.
Hadn't heard of it until now, just read up about it in Wikipedia.
Just like insults, jokes lose their vibe if you need an encloypedia to explain the context.
Hadn't heard of it until now, just read up about it in Wikipedia.
Just like insults, jokes lose their vibe if you need an encloypedia to explain the context.
I actually posted about it a few years back with links and all. It was covered on pretty much every network. I really didn't expect it would need an explanation.
Oh yeah, right here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?114452-oh-wow-this-is-just-horrific&highlight=rape)...
Greyblades
12-13-2012, 00:50
My original statement was "I think they're in need of a corrective rape." What is strange to me is that you went off about what I posted without knowing what I posted.
There was no "corrective" it was "good rape".
There was no "corrective" it was "good rape".
Yes, please do tell me what I posted. Care to tell me what I had for lunch?
Lrn2read.
Greyblades
12-13-2012, 00:56
Yes, please do tell me what I posted. Care to tell me what I had for lunch?
Lrn2read.
I just looked through the post history and, yes, it did say corrective. That was my mistake. I admit that. Still makes you no less cruel or stupid.
I just looked through the post history and, yes, it did say corrective. That was my mistake. I admit that. Still makes you no less of a cruel idiot.
A cruel idiot? Ooohhh, you should've stuck with "donkey", at least that was mildly amusing. I'm debating whether or not to sick the mods on you for it as the ultimate poetic justice, but then again, if I do, they'll edit your post, and it'll be less funny. For now, I suggest you stick with the Dyslexia thread, because that's where you belong (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?143025-Concerning-Dyslexia).
Greyblades
12-13-2012, 01:07
A cruel idiot? Ooohhh, you should've stuck with "donkey", at least that was mildly amusing. I'm debating whether or not to sick the mods on you for it as the ultimate poetic justice, but then again, if I do, they'll edit your post, and it'll be less funny. For now, I suggest you stick to the Dyslexia thread, because that's where you belong (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?143025-Concerning-Dyslexia).
...You're trying to be threatening on the internet? Ignoring the futility of it; you do realise that there are two mods already in on this discussion right? If there was anything worth "sicking" the mods on me for it would have already been noted, quite like your "veiled" threat just now most likely has been. Your threats are rather immature and poorly thought out, though quite expected at this point.
...You're trying to be threatening on the internet? You do realise that there are two mods already discussing this right? If there was anything worth "sicking" the mods on me for it would have already been noted. Your threats are rather immature and poorly thought out, though quite expected at this point.
You think I'm threatening you? :laugh4:
Perhaps in your world of ponies and rainbows that might be construed as a threat. No worries, Nancy, I'm not threatening you.
Greyblades
12-13-2012, 01:14
You think I'm threatening you? :laugh4:
Perhaps in your world of ponies and rainbows that might be construed as a threat. No worries, Nancy, I'm not threatening you.
...Good lord, avoiding the topic, attacking the person instead of the point, thinking mistakes in termanology makes an person's view less valid, denying blatant facts. Am I talking to a backroomer or primary school bully?
...Good lord, avoiding the topic, attacking the person instead of the point, thinking mistakes in termanology makes an person's view less valid, denying blatant facts. Am I talking to a backroomer or primary school bully?
..Good lord, avoiding the topic, attacking the person instead of the point, thinking mistakes in terminology makes an person's view less valid, denying blatant facts. Am I talking to a backroomer or primary school bully?
Greyblades
12-13-2012, 01:26
1/4. Keep trying though I'm sure you'll find something worth saying.
Greyblades
12-13-2012, 01:39
I must apologise to the other viewers of this thread, I've derailed this thread further than was warranted for immature reasons and should have stopped after post 63, I do not apologise for the content of the posts, except for the swearing, just that I should not have allowed myself to get into this back and forth that ultimately has added nothing.
Major Robert Dump
12-13-2012, 02:27
Yeah can we talk about rape again, pls?
I notice rape is downplayed in adult themed RPG games like Fallout 3 and New Vegas. I mean, if you are going to insinuate it and allude to it, why whitewash it? I'm not talking about showing rape, etc, I am talking about for example, the guys who would kidnap teenage girls and take them to Cook Cook so he could rape them. Are we really supposed to believe that the kidnappers, who were also murderers and theives, were not also rapists? In a post apocolyptic land without law? In the total war games, why is rape not an option along with massacreing a village? It would add to the morale of the soldiers and also eliminate culture clash quicker because the natives would start having the babies of the invaders, I believe this was a cornerstone of the mongol holding strategy.
so, its okay to murder imaginary people in cold blood but not to rape them?
Kralizec
12-13-2012, 09:57
Gentlemen, please, be civil.
If you keep it up, next thing you know the mods will lock the backroom for the duration of christmast and newyear's eve...
Gentlemen, please, be civil.
If you keep it up, next thing you know the mods will lock the backroom for the duration of christmast and newyear's eve...
And for the Martin Luther King Day.
Montmorency
12-13-2012, 19:19
I suppose I am guilty of mischaracterizing rvg's joke.
Tellos Athenaios
12-13-2012, 20:31
Gentlemen, please, be civil.
If you keep it up, next thing you know the mods will lock the backroom for the duration of christmast and newyear's eve...
That wouldn't work. They'd need to lock the thing right now, take the kids outside and give them a stern talking to. ~;)
The jokes in here and that comic, too, are extremely crude.
It is quite alright for the Oatmeal to make a crude and insensitive joke. And it is more than alright if people speak out against it. It is how polite society works: you don't need explicit laws and legislation spelling out the line between right and wrong in every sensitive subject, we are far better served if people speak out against insensitive and inconsiderate opinions and remind people.
So yeah, it's okay for the Oatmeal to host a rape joke. And it's even better that there people take to the blogs to point out how it trivialises rape. Not because it is important to point out that rape is terrible and the joke is a bit short on wit or humour, but because in doing so they ensure that rape remains non-trivial and people are reminded to be a bit more considerate when they are around actual rape victims.
Yeah can we talk about rape again, pls?
I notice rape is downplayed in adult themed RPG games like Fallout 3 and New Vegas. I mean, if you are going to insinuate it and allude to it, why whitewash it? I'm not talking about showing rape, etc, I am talking about for example, the guys who would kidnap teenage girls and take them to Cook Cook so he could rape them. Are we really supposed to believe that the kidnappers, who were also murderers and theives, were not also rapists? In a post apocolyptic land without law? In the total war games, why is rape not an option along with massacreing a village? It would add to the morale of the soldiers and also eliminate culture clash quicker because the natives would start having the babies of the invaders, I believe this was a cornerstone of the mongol holding strategy.
so, its okay to murder imaginary people in cold blood but not to rape them?
The soldier's secret pay, as it is known.
This thread is depressing. Depressing because the first response of all the males is to decry feminism.
This is a world were there are countries were women are electronically tagged and their families notified if they leave the country. A world were judges and politicians feel free to make, frankly insane, statements on rape.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gyDV7jNEBnQ/UDJbHJ0GnsI/AAAAAAAAWfI/KE2xKKDwm1U/s1600/Kathrine+Switzer+Boston+Marathon.jpg
Commemorating Katherine Switzer who ran the Boston marathon and had to be physically protected by her fellow race-goers from assault by the race organiser.
This thread is depressing. Depressing because the first response of all the males is to decry feminism.
That's just not true. We don't decry feminism, just its crazy elements.
This is a world were there are countries were women are electronically tagged and their families notified if they leave the country.
Not in my country. I am hardly responsible for how Saudis treat their women.
A world were judges and politicians feel free to make, frankly insane, statements on rape.
Thank God that they can still do it. It's a nice reaffirmation that we still have freedom of speech.
Commemorating Katherine Switzer who ran the Boston marathon and had to be physically protected by her fellow race-goers from assault by the race organiser.And? So what?
Treat "their" women? Bit of a giveaway rvg.
You're reading too much into it.
Believe me, I never read much into your posts rvg ;)
Thank God that they can still do it. It's a nice reaffirmation that we still have freedom of speech.
Also confirms that there is rampant idiocy. Oh well.
Major Robert Dump
12-16-2012, 10:23
Well, I'd like to say the judges and pols suffer politically when they say stupid things in the western countries, but we know that is simply not always the case....
My point above was not that I want rape in Total War games. It was that there are many, many survivors of violence in the industrialized, western nations, survivors who apparently do not fall down and have siezures and go into fits of PTSD everytime they see a murder on NCIS or come across a boxing match. While there are people who may be set off by certain things -- horrible or otherwise, and me being one of those people -- I think it is altogether unreasonable to expect to put a forcible muzzle on people because they may hurt someones sensibilities. Of course, I am not only like that regarding rape, but with other issues as well, such as race....
And just because I feel that way does not mean I actually practice it, meaning I don't usually walk around offending people, even when they deserve it. I realize being an american male being able to control his instincts and scale back his creative insults may be alien to some here, but believe me, I choose my audiences carefully. Unless I am here.
Excluding the countries of the usual savages, the rape rates in the modern, forward thinking world are nothing compared to what they were even 40 years ago, and back then sexual assault was a far more casual and acceptable behavior amongst "the boys". Yet, somehow my grandmothers managed to survive, prosper and -- WAIT FOR IT -- the rape rate went down in the process, even with a gradual greater availability of media to transmit said offensive communication. The argument against rape jokes is self defeating.
Greyblades
12-16-2012, 18:59
I generally agree with that, though only when the joke is actually funny/obviously a joke to more than one person, otherwise a bollocking is deserved.
Crazed Rabbit
01-27-2013, 07:12
This thread is depressing. Depressing because the first response of all the males is to decry feminism.
This is a world were there are countries were women are electronically tagged and their families notified if they leave the country. A world were judges and politicians feel free to make, frankly insane, statements on rape.
Commemorating Katherine Switzer who ran the Boston marathon and had to be physically protected by her fellow race-goers from assault by the race organiser.
You left out my favorite pictures from that - when her 235 lb boyfriend body-checks the asshole race organizer into the dirt:
8459
Thank God that they can still do it. It's a nice reaffirmation that we still have freedom of speech.
It's got nothing to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with not tolerating sexist comments by politicians and fostering a society where any such sexism means the person has no chance of being elected.
Excluding the countries of the usual savages, the rape rates in the modern, forward thinking world are nothing compared to what they were even 40 years ago, and back then sexual assault was a far more casual and acceptable behavior amongst "the boys". Yet, somehow my grandmothers managed to survive, prosper and -- WAIT FOR IT -- the rape rate went down in the process, even with a gradual greater availability of media to transmit said offensive communication. The argument against rape jokes is self defeating.
I don't think so. Why wouldn't lessening the amount of rape jokes lead to less rape? That's what your anecdotes would seem to support.
Here's an interesting read:
http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-politics/details/2012-12-a-letter-to-the-guy-who-harrassed-me-outside-the-bar
When will someone make a gender-swapping plug-in for real life? Where’s my magic button, the switch I can flip to show men like you what it feels like on the other side of your “jokes” and “compliments”? Maybe the first time someone comments on your ass in public you’ll take it as a compliment, but what about the next 12 times? How will you like having a private conversation interrupted so that some dude can get in a lame sexual pun or a rude gesture to impress his friends? What about your personal space? How do you like sharing that with aggressive strangers?
You don’t get it because in your world, this is just you being clever and hilarious, just a little light-hearted late-night banter! Where's my sense of humor? Dude, you are the third, or fifth, or ninth man this week to be rude to me, to think that what you want—to get a rise from your friends, to make your desire known, to make me uncomfortable, to project some twisted "proof" of your virility into the air—is more important than my comfort or safety. This is not an anomaly. This is constant.
So what? You say. So you get a lot of attention, why is that such a bad thing? Annoying, maybe, but no harm, no foul! You know you mean no harm, but how do I know that? When women get harassed on the street, or at a bar, or on their walk home from work, do you know what we think? We wonder, am I going to get out of this safely? Am I going to walk away from this? Where are my keys if I need to stab someone in the eye? Are there people on the street? Will they hear me? Which way will I run? Solar Plexus, Instep, Nose, Groin. I’m exaggerating, but only so slightly. Does it disturb you that we think like this? That we have to think like this?
Comedian Ever Mainard sums up this mindset in her excellent bit about the fact that women are constantly aware that "their rape" could happen at any time. She says, "The problem is that every woman has that one moment when you think, here's my rape! This is it. OK, 11:47pm, how old am I? 25? Alright, here's my rape! It's like we wait for it, like, what took you so long?" I’ve had that moment. I was 20, it was about 11pm and I was on a sidewalk in Barcelona. It didn't happen, and that's a story for another time, but Mainard's observations stands; I remember thinking “So this is how it happens.”
Do you want to know the saddest part? When I started this essay describing my Friday night, I almost included descriptions of what my roommate and I were wearing. I almost mentioned that we were casually dressed, that our clothes weren't revealing, that neither of us was drunk. I almost fell into the trap of proving to you how undeserving we were of harassment and I'm embarrassed to admit that to you now. That's how easy it is to go into victim mode, how easy it is to absorb the lesson that you are somehow responsible for unwanted attention, for harassment, even for assault. No one is deserving of your behavior.
All this talk of how this - The Oatmeal 'comic' - is just a joke, that no harm was meant, that's it's insignificant, reminds me of that saying - no one raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood.
CR
Talk about jokes http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.html
Now I am ok with an18 year old with a 13 year old, but judge should be fired for his reasoning
Crazed Rabbit
01-27-2013, 09:27
Talk about jokes http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.html
Now I am ok with an18 year old with a 13 year old, but judge should be fired for his reasoning
In other interviews with psychologists, Rashid claimed he had been taught in his school that ‘women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground’.
Gee, it seems like our society actually affects what people do.
CR
Fire judge, close these madrassas if that is what is taught there, let's do that. Going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt as I don't think he should be jailed for this, consensual sex is not rape, but ffs UK get over your political-correctness and stop courting radical islam.
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