What about those who die without ever hearing about Jesus?

[total relism]

I will be doing a series of threads on common objections to the christian faith/bible. Around 15 in total of the most common objections I have seen on many forums through many years I have been involved on forums. I am looking to use these as references in future so I will only be dealing with discussion on the topic of each thread.

The first was on how could god allow the creation he loved/died for, end up in hell.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?143245-How-could-a-loving-god-send-people-to-Hell


What of Those That Have Never Heard of Christianity

This objection is, however, fallacious, because it assumes that those who have never heard about Christ are judged on the same basis as those who have. But the Bible says that the unreached will be judged on a quite different basis than those who have heard the gospel. God will judge the unreached on the basis of their response to His self-revelation in nature and conscience. The Bible says that from the created order alone, all persons can know that a Creator God exists and that God has implanted His moral law in the hearts of all persons so that they are held morally accountable to God (Rom. 1.20; 2.14-15). The Bible promises salvation to anyone who responds affirmatively to this self-revelation of God (Rom. 2.7). Now this does not mean that they can be saved apart from Christ. Rather it means that the benefits of Christ's sacrifice can be applied to them without their conscious knowledge of Christ. They would be like people in the Old Testament before Jesus came who had no conscious knowledge of Christ but who were saved on the basis of his sacrifice through their response to the information that God had revealed to them. And, thus, salvation is truly available to all persons at all times. It all depends upon our free response.

The book or Romans says anyone who would be saved, will be saved. So it matters not where someone is born as everyone willing will be saved. God knows who will accept him by there reaction to nature and there conscious. No one is sent to hell for not hearing the bible, but for sinning against a holy god.


12 Some people do not know God's law when they sin. They will not be judged by the law when they die. Others do know God's law when they sin. They will be judged by the law. 13 For the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous. 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men
Romans 2 13-16


31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah 31 31-34


all know god through creation and what is made

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse
Romans 1.20


The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
Psalm 19.4

so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Isiah 52.15


Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
Acts 14.17


In Colossians 1.23 Paul says every creature under haven has had gospel preached to them, the book was written in 60-62 A.D


I believe some people who claim to be atheist will be in heaven

“I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I was found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’
To a nation that was not called by My name.
Isaiah 65.1


but many that hear about god will not accept him

I spread out My hands all day long
to a rebellious people
who walk in the wrong path,
following their own thoughts
Isiah 65.2


In Matt chapter 25 Jesus says he will reap were he has not yet sown, i believe in context this parable talks of those who have not herd of Jesus. In v 34-39 gentiles will be saved and entire paradise and say to Jesus when did I know you?

In Jeremiah 22.16 it says
16 He defended the cause of the poor and needy,
and so all went well.
Is that not what it means to know me?”
declares the LORD.

no one will be judged for sins they were unaware of

for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Romans chapter 4. 15

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
John 15.22 also 9.41


13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.
Romans 5.13

Paul argues with the Jews in Romans chapter 3 saying how can the law save? Is god, god only to those that have the law?

28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 3 28-30


An example of a believer in god who had not yet heard gospel message in Acts 16 v 14 it reads

14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.

C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity said

"There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position."

According to world famous evangelist Billy Graham, people can love or know Jesus without being conscious of it. If unbelievers who do not know the name of Jesus turn to the "only light they have" they are going to be in heaven:

"I think that everybody that loves or knows Christ, whether they are conscious of it or not, they are members of the body of Christ. . . . [God] is calling people out of the world for his name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they have been called by God. They may not know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something they do not have, and they turn to the only light they have, and I think that they are saved and they are going to be with us in heaven."
-Billy Graham

The official stance of the catholic church agrees

“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation” (quoting, Lumen Gentium, 16).
“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those, who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (quoting Ad Gentes, 7, another document from Vatican II).

“I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except by me” (John 14:6), which I quoted above, this same Jesus also said, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin” (John 15:22; see also John 9:41). Jesus presents a very important principle here. A person is not responsible for what they could not have known. …... “those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to lead a good life” will not be denied by Divine Providence what the Council fathers called “the helps necessary for salvation” (Lumen Gentium,16).

[Veho Nex]

Who are you?

[total relism]

well I am total relism.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Who are you?

In order to find out, we are going to need..................a little faith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR3jnW2kcUs

[Veho Nex]

well I am total relism.

Are you like the local preacher? Or do you have a mission to convert the wicked?

[total relism]

sorry

[total relism]

Are you like the local preacher? Or do you have a mission to convert the wicked?

Converting the wicked is beyond my power. I have found this to be true over the years, only a change in heart can do that, I just do it for fun I like to argue.

[jirisys]

I know this is a public space forum, and open to free speech (except on a few topics), and I respect that (one should be able to speak out his Gutmensch thoughts without fear); but isn't this taking it a bit too far?

Also I will try not to enter this little thing you have going on, but don't you first have to prove that the bible is authoritative enough for you to make arguments out of it, shouldn't you? I mean, Every argument you make here will topple down if your base is shoddy.

~Jirisys ()

[total relism]

I know this is a public space forum, and open to free speech (except on a few topics), and I respect that (one should be able to speak out his Gutmensch thoughts without fear); but isn't this taking it a bit too far?

Also I will try not to enter this little thing you have going on, but don't you first have to prove that the bible is authoritative enough for you to make arguments out of it, shouldn't you? I mean, Every argument you make here will topple down if your base is shoddy.

~Jirisys ()

Just wondering why this is taking it to far in your opinion? But yes this thread makes certain asumtions,but have you not ever hear someone say I cant believe the bible or a god who would condemn people for not hearing the salvation message etc.

[Fragony]

Converting the wicked is beyond my power. I have found this to be true over the years, only a change in heart can do that, I just do it for fun I like to argue.

That's what the Backroom is for. You won't convert me by the way I RESIST

[Sigurd]

I have no theological objection in general towards OP...

But a few self proclaimed Christians might have an issue with it.
Consider baptism in this question and other salvation necessary ordinances.

There are two polarizing camps for this issue. Those who say: YES baptism is necessary for salvation (they quote John 3:5). The other camp is asserting that: NO baptism is not necessary for salvation. But this latter camp are those who claim that you need to believe in Jesus to be saved ( they refer you to Acts 16:31-32, Eph 2:8-10).

Both camps might have issues with salvation without knowledge of Christ. On one hand "they"(ref OP) lack baptism, and on the other hand they lack the saving moment where one receives Christ (saved by faith).

Theologically speaking, Christ redeemed all mankind through his death and resurrection, even those who did not know him. Therefore it is by his grace that man is saved. He holds the debt, he hands out the payment to justice - and your bill towards God is wiped clean... or was... back then... for past crimes, current crimes and future crimes.. for all mankind (Adam -> Papewaio/Idaho etc) :sneaky:

[Idaho]

How many boards have you been banned from Total Relism? My guess is that each board gradually gets tired of the cut and pastes and kicks you off after a few months.

[Idaho]

Theologically speaking, Christ redeemed all mankind through his death and resurrection, even those who did not know him. Therefore it is by his grace that man is saved. He holds the debt, he hands out the payment to justice - and your bill towards God is wiped clean... or was... back then... for past crimes, current crimes and future crimes.. for all mankind (Adam -> Papewaio/Idaho etc) :sneaky:
That's the good cop. The bad cop is that we'll all burn in hell, because apparently we want to.

[InsaneApache]

Life's too short.

[total relism]

I have no theological objection in general towards OP...

But a few self proclaimed Christians might have an issue with it.
Consider baptism in this question and other salvation necessary ordinances.

There are two polarizing camps for this issue. Those who say: YES baptism is necessary for salvation (they quote John 3:5). The other camp is asserting that: NO baptism is not necessary for salvation. But this latter camp are those who claim that you need to believe in Jesus to be saved ( they refer you to Acts 16:31-32, Eph 2:8-10).

Both camps might have issues with salvation without knowledge of Christ. On one hand "they"(ref OP) lack baptism, and on the other hand they lack the saving moment where one receives Christ (saved by faith).

Theologically speaking, Christ redeemed all mankind through his death and resurrection, even those who did not know him. Therefore it is by his grace that man is saved. He holds the debt, he hands out the payment to justice - and your bill towards God is wiped clean... or was... back then... for past crimes, current crimes and future crimes.. for all mankind (Adam -> Papewaio/Idaho etc) :sneaky:


I say read op as it answered this, the topic is those that have not heard of Christ, that would include unbaptized. Baptism is not at all nesasary for salvation but that is another topic. Also it matters not what people say,but what the bible says.

[InsaneApache]

What happens to those who have been baptised (I.E. Me) but who have rejected the conceit that is god?

[Populus Romanus]

How many boards have you been banned from Total Relism? My guess is that each board gradually gets tired of the cut and pastes and kicks you off after a few months.He has been around for seven years on the Total War Center, don't hold your breath...

[total relism]

What happens to those who have been baptised (I.E. Me) but who have rejected the conceit that is god?

I cant know your heart but i would guess unsaved my friend, feel free topm me if you would like to talk about anything/have questions etc.



He has been around for seven years on the Total War Center, don't hold your breath...

lol

[Sigurd]

Also it matters not what people say,but what the bible says.
That's the thing... they both quote the bible, yet have two complete opposite conclusions. John says that unless you are born of water and spirit you can't be saved. then in Acts and Ephesians Paul says you need to believe/have faith in Christ to be saved.
Then you come along and says: If you have not known about Jesus you are still saved. You don't see the conflict here?

But I digress..

There have not been any discussion of what constitutes as the necessary conditions for salvation.
Clearly there are certain conditions to meet in order for the sacrifice of Christ to work. Does he not say (Matt 7:23) "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" to those who profess to believe in him and help his Kingdom move forward?

[total relism]

That's the thing... they both quote the bible, yet have two complete opposite conclusions. John says that unless you are born of water and spirit you can't be saved. then in Acts and Ephesians Paul says you need to believe/have faith in Christ to be saved.
Then you come along and says: If you have not known about Jesus you are still saved. You don't see the conflict here?

But I digress..

There have not been any discussion of what constitutes as the necessary conditions for salvation.
Clearly there are certain conditions to meet in order for the sacrifice of Christ to work. Does he not say (Matt 7:23) "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" to those who profess to believe in him and help his Kingdom move forward?



First I enjoy our discussion very much thank you, you seem to be after understanding regardless if we agree on anything thank you.


Big differences your missing, this is why deeper theology is needed, I just posted on this here with someone [a christian who disagrees with me] please read for my sake post 19 here [responce to basic]
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=583298
this I hope will quickly exspalin why so many different opinions/divisions exist within the church.


The differences are as this topic is about. If they have heard gospel message or not. Diffident rules apply to different circumstances. Paul and the john passage say the same thing, once you believe you become born of the spirit.



agreed on matt passage, but that refers to those that claim to be christian but they never new him means they were never really saved. the whole chapter is about false prophets and false Disciples that claim to believe but do not.

[Kadagar_AV]

My God is stronger than your god. So I win.

I have a book that says so, and that seems to be all the evidence one needs these days.

[Veho Nex]

My God is stronger than your god. So I win.

I have a book that says so, and that seems to be all the evidence one needs these days.

Ive got 15 gods and countless half-gods that say they are better than yours. So if yours is stronger than his then by default mine wins.

[InsaneApache]

I've got a bottle of scotch that's stronger.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Also it matters not what people say,but what the bible says.

Do you believe homosexual people are an abomination? Do you believe we should not wear garments of two types of materials?

CR

[Hooahguy]

Do you believe homosexual people are an abomination? Do you believe we should not wear garments of two types of materials?

CR

More importantly, if his brother dies childless yet with a wife, does he have to marry his sister-in-law?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Do you believe homosexual people are an abomination? Do you believe we should not wear garments of two types of materials?

CR


More importantly, if his brother dies childless yet with a wife, does he have to marry his sister-in-law?

Haven't you guys been listening? That's what it says! Durrrr.

[Idaho]

Do you believe homosexual people are an abomination? Do you believe we should not wear garments of two types of materials?

CR

Don't be silly. There is a quote we've found that says we can pick and choose the bits that suit us.

[Sigurd]

Big differences your missing, this is why deeper theology is needed, I just posted on this here with someone [a christian who disagrees with me] please read for my sake post 19 here [responce to basic]
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=583298
this I hope will quickly explain why so many different opinions/divisions exist within the church.

The differences are as this topic is about. If they have heard gospel message or not. Diffident rules apply to different circumstances. Paul and the john passage say the same thing, once you believe you become born of the spirit.
Agreed on matt passage, but that refers to those that claim to be christian but they never new him means they were never really saved. the whole chapter is about false prophets and false Disciples that claim to believe but do not.
Right.. discussing with you just brings more questions to the table.
But let's leave the who is right and who is wrong among the numerous self proclaimed Christians.

So... my forfather... Svein "Anvil" Magnusson, a man living at a place where Christianity never reached while he lived, will be saved regardless of deeds as he never had the opportunity to receive the word (ref John 1)?
There is no other qualifying points necessary for him, in particular, to gain salvation?

What about Paul's statement that the gospel have already been taught to all creatures? Does not that state that all know about Jesus in some form?

[total relism]

Do you believe homosexual people are an abomination? Do you believe we should not wear garments of two types of materials?

CR


off topic, though these will indeed fit in with future thread I will be doing.



Right.. discussing with you just brings more questions to the table.
But let's leave the who is right and who is wrong among the numerous self proclaimed Christians.

So... my forfather... Svein "Anvil" Magnusson, a man living at a place where Christianity never reached while he lived, will be saved regardless of deeds as he never had the opportunity to receive the word (ref John 1)?
There is no other qualifying points necessary for him, in particular, to gain salvation?

What about Paul's statement that the gospel have already been taught to all creatures? Does not that state that all know about Jesus in some form?


I say as my link did, the bible is right not any christian, the authority is in the bible no human being.

Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."
Romans 3.4


Your forefathers is not saved regardless of hid deeds, he is saved based on his heart and his reaction to what has been given to him through hisconscience and creation [read op please]. What of john 1 makes you think those that dont hear of Christ are automatically saved?.


no one is saved by works no one, weather they have heard of jesus or not.


Yes indeed,read OP.

[Fragony]

You should read up on Weber on calvinism, he has an interesting theory about that, there are no good works but only signs you are doing them as you are rewarded in life. ($)

[Sigurd]

I say as my link did, the bible is right not any christian, the authority is in the bible no human being.

Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."
Romans 3.4

umm... I said we should leave this discussion. As in, let's not discuss this further.. finito il lavoro .. capito??



Your forefathers is not saved regardless of hid deeds, he is saved based on his heart and his reaction to what has been given to him through his conscience and creation [read op please]. What of john 1 makes you think those that don't hear of Christ are automatically saved?.

no one is saved by works no one, weather they have heard of jesus or not.

Just making sure that we are on the same page here...
So this forefather of mine... Svein Magnusson.. nicknamed the anvil.. because he apparently drowned a longship and a crew by throwing an anvil at it.. will be saved.. because he was a loving father for his children and a good husband - yet merciless against his enemies. Deeds don't matter anyway as in works won't save you, neither will work damn you as long as your heart stay true. Yet.. he never heard of white-Christ as he died before the first Christians arrived with the gospel of the word.
This is according to your understanding of the Bible...

[total relism]

umm... I said we should leave this discussion. As in, let's not discuss this further.. finito il lavoro .. capito??


Just making sure that we are on the same page here...
So this forefather of mine... Svein Magnusson.. nicknamed the anvil.. because he apparently drowned a longship and a crew by throwing an anvil at it.. will be saved.. because he was a loving father for his children and a good husband - yet merciless against his enemies. Deeds don't matter anyway as in works won't save you, neither will work damn you as long as your heart stay true. Yet.. he never heard of white-Christ as he died before the first Christians arrived with the gospel of the word.
This is according to your understanding of the Bible...


I am ok with that sure.


Not at all I have no idea how your missing everything I have said.

Noone is saved by works, if they heard of Christ or not
no one is saved outside of Christ.
all are guilty and punished by god.
Those that have never heard of Christ, read op. If you are having trouble please tell me were. What specific part you dont get.

[Sigurd]

Noone is saved by works, if they heard of Christ or not
no one is saved outside of Christ.
all are guilty and punished by god.
Those that have never heard of Christ, read op. If you are having trouble please tell me were. What specific part you dont get.
I want you to give me a concrete example of your theological position on this.
I tried to make one for you.

I have read the OP but I think you make a few mistakes there... particularly that the Old Testament prophets and the house of Israel didn't know of Christ and such is comparable to the gentile nations of the earth. There is a significant difference in that they were taught of the coming of Christ. That was what the Law of Moses was all about. The preparation and the anticipation of the coming of the son of man. They knew of Christ and therefore have the sufficient knowledge to attain salvation based on the teachings given by Paul.
I want an example of a person not belonging to the house of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that were never taught the gospel.. your quote in the OP states that God is revealed through his creation... Now how is that possible? A god, yes... the ancients was quite superstitious - but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? more particularly the coming of the son of man? How is that self evident given the nature around us? Take away the OT and the NT... are you seriously suggesting that This god of Israel is revealed to us through his creation - the nature around us, the sky above and the lights filling it? I would propose that without the Bible, you have nothing... no evidence.
Hence those who never came into contact with the Bible --- how would they come to the knowledge of these things?

[InsaneApache]

Here endeth the first lesson. Amen.

[total relism]

I want you to give me a concrete example of your theological position on this.
I tried to make one for you.

I have read the OP but I think you make a few mistakes there... particularly that the Old Testament prophets and the house of Israel didn't know of Christ and such is comparable to the gentile nations of the earth. There is a significant difference in that they were taught of the coming of Christ. That was what the Law of Moses was all about. The preparation and the anticipation of the coming of the son of man. They knew of Christ and therefore have the sufficient knowledge to attain salvation based on the teachings given by Paul.
I want an example of a person not belonging to the house of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that were never taught the gospel.. your quote in the OP states that God is revealed through his creation... Now how is that possible? A god, yes... the ancients was quite superstitious - but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? more particularly the coming of the son of man? How is that self evident given the nature around us? Take away the OT and the NT... are you seriously suggesting that This god of Israel is revealed to us through his creation - the nature around us, the sky above and the lights filling it? I would propose that without the Bible, you have nothing... no evidence.
Hence those who never came into contact with the Bible --- how would they come to the knowledge of these things?


alot of questions in there, I do aploigize but could you just number and ask the questions.

1]
2] etc

I dont want to confuse your questions so for me could you please ask in list form. They sound like great questions.

[Sigurd]

alot of questions in there, I do aploigize but could you just number and ask the questions.

1]
2] etc

I dont want to confuse your questions so for me could you please ask in list form. They sound like great questions.
*sigh*

1. Give an example of a person that fits your doctrine about not having heard of Jesus.. He/She can't be an Israelite (under Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ancestry).

2. How can the Christian God be self-revelatory [sic] outside the Bible?

..yeah this is pretty much the boiled down version of my previous post.

[Rhyfelwyr]

*sigh*

1. Give an example of a person that fits your doctrine about not having heard of Jesus.. He/She can't be an Israelite (under Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ancestry).

2. How can the Christian God be self-revelatory [sic] outside the Bible?

..yeah this is pretty much the boiled down version of my previous post.

I know this post wasn't meant for me but if I may chip in...

1. I don't necessarily even agree with TR (not sure what he's saying). But purely in response to your question, what about Melchizidek (he was IIRC a Canaanite?) and those under his priesthood? Although I guess that would be another example of a particular revelation rather than more general natural revelation.

2. Well the person of Christ wouldn't be, but I guess if you argue that a perfect God (minus the particulars of Christianity) is self-evident, then forgiveness would be part of that God's nature and so sinners should have some sort of innate desire to look to that God for forgiveness.

[Sigurd]

I know this post wasn't meant for me but if I may chip in...

1. I don't necessarily even agree with TR (not sure what he's saying). But purely in response to your question, what about Melchizidek (he was IIRC a Canaanite?) and those under his priesthood? Although I guess that would be another example of a particular revelation rather than more general natural revelation.

2. Well the person of Christ wouldn't be, but I guess if you argue that a perfect God (minus the particulars of Christianity) is self-evident, then forgiveness would be part of that God's nature and so sinners should have some sort of innate desire to look to that God for forgiveness.
You are meddling :sneaky:
1.
I just want to make sure TR understands what he promoting. I don't know any other Christian denomination apart from Mormonism that teaches something similar to OP.
Could be he belongs to a fringe group aka Saved Mormons or other outbreaks from the original.

About Melchizedek... ok... same question but POST Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, right?). Melchizedek also had the religion of Adam didn't he, and was ordained to the same priesthood as that of Adam, Noah, Enoch. Obviously the saving ordinances were taught these men and their followers. Enoch even attained it while still living - with his entire city.
Let's focus on the general Northern European in the same time period.. or South African, Chinese, Aborigine, Polynesian or Native American? Someone not living in the general middle eastern areas - where some knowledge might have been spread.

2.
Minus the bible what have you? ... Find a story in the bible where god's people weren't taught by either prophets or angels before coming to a knowledge about their God.
It even states in the bible that this method existed - that previously they were taught by prophets, who got it from angels or God directly. (Hebr 1)
If these things were self evident.. why the need for prophets?

[Rhyfelwyr]

bout Melchizedek... ok... same question but POST Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, right?). Melchizedek also had the religion of Adam didn't he, and was ordained to the same priesthood as that of Adam, Noah, Enoch. Obviously the saving ordinances were taught these men and their followers. Enoch even attained it while still living - with his entire city.
Let's focus on the general Northern European in the same time period.. or South African, Chinese, Aborigine, Polynesian or Native American? Someone not living in the general middle eastern areas - where some knowledge might have been spread.

Minus the bible what have you? ... Find a story in the bible where god's people weren't taught by either prophets or angels before coming to a knowledge about their God.
It even states in the bible that this method existed - that previously they were taught by prophets, who got it from angels or God directly. (Hebr 1)
If these things were self evident.. why the need for prophets?

If we're debating what the Bible says here, I would point out Romans 1:20 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%201.20).

If you are questioning if the Bible must be wrong, I'll say a couple of things. Firstly, God's special revelation to the Israelites does not demonstrate that natural revelation is insufficient for salvation, it was given to them because God has a special purpose for Israel as a nation.

Secondly, it could be argued that since all the peoples of the world can trace their lineage back to Adam just as Melchizedek could, that all the various world religions still contain some aspect of divine or special revelation, in that they are simply corrupted forms of the original.

And finally, salvation is ultimately a personal conviction, rather than a specific belief system. If we can agree that a perfect God is naturally revealed to mankind, then people would look to him for forgiveness without hearing the Gospel. They might simply express this through animal sacrifice or whatever, but these symbolic things are all that most of the OT saints had anyway.

btw, whenever I try to edit what I've typed, whenever I type a character it deletes the one after it. It only started this mid-post. How do I stop it?!

[Kralizec]

Press "insert".

[Sigurd]

If we're debating what the Bible says here, I would point out Romans 1:20 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%201.20).

If you are questioning if the Bible must be wrong, I'll say a couple of things. Firstly, God's special revelation to the Israelites does not demonstrate that natural revelation is insufficient for salvation, it was given to them because God has a special purpose for Israel as a nation.

Secondly, it could be argued that since all the peoples of the world can trace their lineage back to Adam just as Melchizedek could, that all the various world religions still contain some aspect of divine or special revelation, in that they are simply corrupted forms of the original.

And finally, salvation is ultimately a personal conviction, rather than a specific belief system. If we can agree that a perfect God is naturally revealed to mankind, then people would look to him for forgiveness without hearing the Gospel. They might simply express this through animal sacrifice or whatever, but these symbolic things are all that most of the OT saints had anyway.

btw, whenever I try to edit what I've typed, whenever I type a character it deletes the one after it. It only started this mid-post. How do I stop it?!
It still begs the question... every scripture is taken out of context in this particular matter. Why preach the gospel if it is self evident? Paul speaks about preaching the gospel just moments before-- to the just so that they might receive salvation. Then he proceeds, if we do not consider the context, that the unjust will be damned because they didn't follow the self-evident unpreached gospel of God that is embedded in his creation. How foolish for the unjust not to take notice... it is there in plain sight... Art thou blind??? Now... let me preach the gospel to you..dear friends that salvation will be available to you...

Me thinks you are not connecting the dots here. Clearly he is speaking of those who HAS been taught by Paul and other preachers and then turned away from it despite the "evidence" backing up the preached gospel.
None of these scriptures are talking about those who never was brought the message...

The all religions come from a common source statement... is interesting in it self should we pursue it. Is Odinn's sacrifice as he was "hung" on a tree a salvatory principle for the Norse? IF they truly believed it? that Odinn wounded himself with a spear as a sacrifice to himself to gain wisdom...

I am still waiting on a concrete example of this concept... that doesn't involve the gospel being taught by propehets, apostles, angels and the like...

[HoreTore]

Bah, Sigurd. No need to bring Odin into all of this, you know just as well as I do that the vikings weren't very religious, in our modern sense of the word. Norse mythlogy was just a collection of tall tales, various bonding rituals and the habit of blaming it on spirits whenevr something went wrong or you were spooked in the dark. The reason seems obvious - the vikings had no cities(only market places like Kaupang) and lived on individual farms. It's hard to get organized when you only have your extended family to organize...

And this continues to this day - do you remember that story about those hillbillies living on a remote island in the west(no surprises there!) who were damned sure they had "little helpers"? It ended in a social media frenzy where every weirdo in the country came out to tell the world of their contact with various variants of "nisser"... Sometimes I wondr if an oppressive theocracy with an authoritarian religion would be preferable to weirdos getting felt up by old pervs from Snåsa.

[Papewaio]

Sorry those oppressive theocracy have more then their fair share of old pervs.

You can change the religion, you can't change the attraction of religion as an easy access for perverts.

[total relism]

*sigh*

1. Give an example of a person that fits your doctrine about not having heard of Jesus.. He/She can't be an Israelite (under Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ancestry).

2. How can the Christian God be self-revelatory [sic] outside the Bible?

..yeah this is pretty much the boiled down version of my previous post.



thanks for boiling it down, hey how do they make holy water?... they boil the hell out of it. Sorry I think I am funny sometimes.

I dont see what is not answered of your questions in OP.

Well I disagree with your assumptions, you seem to think that knowledge is still needed for salvation, if that were the case than wouldn't all who have knowledge of bible be saved?. This is clearly not true according to the bible.

1] There are many that have not heard of jesus all over the bible. i am guessing you mean that have been saved and never heard of jesus. I would say only god knows, but god says there are many. Maybe balaam or ruth may be what your looking for or the Ninevites in jonah?? I am not 100% sure what your asking for. But As the book of romans says there will be those saved and that those that have not heard of jesus will be judged different than those that have. God says there will be those that understand him without ever hearing the bible message.

For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand. [/B]
Isiah 52.15


think of this Isaiah passage, this directly compares gentiles with the nation of isreal.

“]I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I was found by those who did not seek Me. [/B]
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’
To a nation that was not called by My name.
Isaiah 65.1


but many that hear about god will not accept him

I spread out My hands all day long
### to a rebellious people
### who walk in the wrong path,
### following their own thoughts
Isiah 65.2

Than there parable in matt etc.

2] Through creation and the human consiuncous that he created [op] This does not mean perfect knowledge of the bible or biblical theology..

[Sigurd]

I see none of my questions answered...
And I would infact contend that if you should consider the entirety of the Bible, all knew of Christ in it. Maybe not the actual name Christ which is the Greek form, but the comparative Messiah, the anointed one, the son of God.
You keep quoting Isaiah... who certainly appears to have an intimate knowledge of these things.. 800 BC. Would we assume that he taught the people about it? What about all the other prophets from Adam until Isaiah?

My simple question was... who... not mentioned in the Bible would be affected by the proposition in OP? What are the requirements for them to attain salvation? Paul said in Romans 1 that the taught gospel is salvatory. It needs to be taught... not discerned from rivers, trees and mountains.

Who in Norway 700 AD, would this work for?


For the record... I know what you are saying tr.. but I think you should take a step back and consider how it fits together with what the NT says about salvatory principles. The evangelic denominations seem to put blinkers on when using a small narrow part of the Bible in their lazy approach to this. Say the name.. that's it and you are saved.

An acquaintance of mine paraphrased a poem about knowing Jesus when I discussed Matt 7 with him. The gist of it was this...

A certain man was interviewing candidates.. And he asked them the same question: What do you know of the Christ? And they all told him in detail about Christ's saving grace, his gospel and his example for mankind. but he asked them again: What do you know of the Christ? And they proceeded to explain about the beatitudes taught at mount olives, the crucifixion, the calling of the twelve apostles, the institution of the last supper. He asked them again No, what do you know of the Christ. They finalized with the second coming of him who would vanquish the enemies of God, the heralding of the judgement and the salvation of the elect. He sent them away... The last candidate came in and before the man could ask him the question, the candidate fell to his knees uttering: My Lord, my God.

[total relism]

I see none of my questions answered...
And I would infact contend that if you should consider the entirety of the Bible, all knew of Christ in it. Maybe not the actual name Christ which is the Greek form, but the comparative Messiah, the anointed one, the son of God.
You keep quoting Isaiah... who certainly appears to have an intimate knowledge of these things.. 800 BC. Would we assume that he taught the people about it? What about all the other prophets from Adam until Isaiah?

My simple question was... who... not mentioned in the Bible would be affected by the proposition in OP? What are the requirements for them to attain salvation? Paul said in Romans 1 that the taught gospel is salvatory. It needs to be taught... not discerned from rivers, trees and mountains.

Who in Norway 700 AD, would this work for?


For the record... I know what you are saying tr.. but I think you should take a step back and consider how it fits together with what the NT says about salvatory principles. The evangelic denominations seem to put blinkers on when using a small narrow part of the Bible in their lazy approach to this. Say the name.. that's it and you are saved.

An acquaintance of mine paraphrased a poem about knowing Jesus when I discussed Matt 7 with him. The gist of it was this...

A certain man was interviewing candidates.. And he asked them the same question: What do you know of the Christ? And they all told him in detail about Christ's saving grace, his gospel and his example for mankind. but he asked them again: What do you know of the Christ? And they proceeded to explain about the beatitudes taught at mount olives, the crucifixion, the calling of the twelve apostles, the institution of the last supper. He asked them again No, what do you know of the Christ. They finalized with the second coming of him who would vanquish the enemies of God, the heralding of the judgement and the salvation of the elect. He sent them away... The last candidate came in and before the man could ask him the question, the candidate fell to his knees uttering: My Lord, my God.



I fully understand what your saying, I am not saying those in ot knew nothing of bible/jesus, many did many did not. They certainly did not have 100% knowledge of him. Peter [I think] says they did not have perfect knowledge, no one did untill jesus was reveled. I am not saying Isiah/ot isreal were not looking forward to christ or a savior. My thread is on those with no knowledge at all of bible ot/nt.


I would say my OP applies to all who have never heard anything of bible ot/nt. If paul in romans 1 said the gospel needs to be taught, I am ok with that 100% that in noway contradicts my op. Paul himself in romans is were this question is mostly answered from op. Paul both said the gospel had been taught to all the earth in 62 ad, and said how important it was to get out the word of the gospel to all later. Read OP please.



I would say all in norway in 700 ad


amen to spoiler part very nice, but I guess the point I am trying to make is the bible not only from paul in romans but ot passages and parable in matt, make a distinction from those who have heard the gospel and how they are judged,with those who have never heard.