Morrowind - after Oblivion and Skyrim?

[Mongoose]

Okay, so I started with Oblivion, and thought it was okay, but not great. I liked the open world but found the setting and most of the quests bland. Then I got Skyrim, which I liked playing a lot better because I loved the game world and found the quests engaging (well there are still a lot of bland ones, but on average it's a massive improvement from Oblivion). Varied dungeons that weren't just really obvious copies was nice, and the better graphics helped too.

From what I've heard, Morrowind also has a cool setting, but I've also heard it has bad controls and an even worse combat system than Oblivion and Skyrim. And of course it's about a decade old, so the visual aspect is pretty dated; I value gameplay over graphics, but in an exploration game, graphics do count.

The Org usually has pretty good taste and judgement, I find, and I know there are some ES people on here, so -EDIT: this got cut-off and should read: I was wondering - has anyone else played Skyrim, and then tried Morrowind, or looked at Morrowind again after the later games? If so, was it fun or were there issues that were hard to get past?

[Cornelius]

Hi, I agree with you 100%. Oblivion was rather average. Skyrim rocks balls due to a great storyline and you get to fight dragons! I started off on Morrowind back when the original Xbox was still riding high. It utterly rocked my world. I had never experienced a game that gave you such a vast world to explore and so much freedom to do it with. I dont want to give away too much as just thinking back about discovering parts of the story gives me goosebumps. Your choices mattered.

Like having to choose between the thieves and fighters guild.

I spent months playing that game. Ruining 2 controllers with a smile. It might not match up to the later games with regards to graphics but it still is a beautiful world with wonderfully designed settlements, towns and cities. A legion of characters and enemies, many of who will be familiar to you after playing the sequels. After 3 months of playing the original Morrowind I saw the Collector's Edition with the Blood Moon (or something like that) and another (can't remember) expansion which just plugged-in to the main game seamlesly. (for me anyway) Like any game there were a couple of bugs and annoying bits but nothing that stood out (except running around with tons of repair hammers). Many more spells and potions (you could fly damnit!) Melee moves (granted hack slash and thrust but still). Have I raved about the storyline? Anyway *RAVE *RAVE *RAVE. Morrowind is the grand daddy of the modern RPG. Do youself a favour and play it, play it all. I hope my ramblings have done the game justice and swayed you to play it and love it as much as I did. In fact, I might just start again...

[Fragony]

Oblivion doesn't NEARLY has such an interested setting as Morrowind, Morrowind has an unmatched sense of wonder. With a few mods it supposedly looks just as good as Skyrim.

[Cornelius]

If you do decide to acquire Morrowind, check out this link http://morrowind2009.wordpress.com/

[Beskar]

I personally feel Morrowind was a product of its time, but if you put it up against Skyrim, it completely falls short. The controls and graphics will impact hard, the lack of dynamic characters is another as towns are populated by statues. I cannot honestly play Morrowind now and get into it, the whole impact is too jarring. A lot of praise is nostalgia, it is down to whether or not you can sit yourself through an old game and whether or not it would bother you.

[TinCow]

Morrowind may well be difficult after Skyrim. It is a superb game, but it has major flaws. More flaws than Skyrim, I believe, and I think that playing it after Skyrim will have an impact. It's not the graphics, but more so the character system. Skyrim did some very clever things to the ES system that really made the game very fun, such as flat leveling and perks. Morrowind utilizes an exceptionally annoying leveling system that made it difficult to develop a character if you chose your starting skills 'poorly.' In fact, it was so counter-intuitive that it was often better to pick starting skills as those you wouldn't be using. The magic system is also very different. While I preferred Morrowind's spell system, the lack of regenerating mana (except on sleep) was crippling for a starting character and pretty much prevented someone from playing as a pure mage. At the same time, while Morrowind had far more skills, many were useless and uninspiring. Some were useless in Skyrim as well, but Skyrim also added Smithing, which was so well done that it would be sorely missed going back.

That said, Morrowind's story and 'world' are superb, and many will still say they're better even than Skyrim's. The use of text instead of just voice acting means that there is a lot more depth to the stories and a lot more information about the world. If you don't mind a lot of text, Morrowind would be great, but if you don't like it or would just skip over it then that aspect wouldn't be a bonus for you.

I'd say give it a try (heavily modded to improve the graphics and remove some of the character annoyances) and see if you like it. If you can't stand it after a few hours, just drop it.

[johnhughthom]

I wouldn't in any way describe the lack of mana regeneration as crippling, I played many a pure mage through Morrowind, and don't remember finding the lack of regeneration a hindrance. Making sure you had a steady supply of potions was not overly difficult, and it gave you more incentive to get involved in alchemy. Compared to starting as a mage in Baldur's Gate, Morrowind was a cinch.

I hate mana regeneration almost as much as health regenaration, modern gamers suck for both to be standard now. :clown:

[Beskar]

I hate mana regeneration almost as much as health regenaration, modern gamers suck for both to be standard now. :clown:

I hate Master mode, or whatever the highest is on Skyrim. I started a game with it as it isn't "hard" it is just frustrating, as you have to be incredibly gamey to stay alive (jumping around, going into crouches, using terrain, particularly buggy terrain to stay alive), and the enemies are pin cushions... no way some one with no armour on can survive 20-30 arrows to the face.

I do like elements of realism in that respect. As for the food and drink thing, I do believe there is a mod where food gives hp and drink gives mana, and they are the only ways outside of potions and sleeping. I don't find that bad.

[rajpoot]

Was posting this yesterday when system crashed.
You should check out Morroblivion, and Skywind. The former is pretty well developed by now, it's basically Morrowind running with Oblivion graphics.

Linky (http://www.morroblivion.com/)

[Fragony]

I personally feel Morrowind was a product of its time, but if you put it up against Skyrim, it completely falls short. The controls and graphics will impact hard, the lack of dynamic characters is another as towns are populated by statues. I cannot honestly play Morrowind now and get into it, the whole impact is too jarring. A lot of praise is nostalgia, it is down to whether or not you can sit yourself through an old game and whether or not it would bother you.

Modders supposedly fixed all that. Skyrim is absolutely a better game in many ways, but Morrowind just has a more interesting setting, really feels like a world with thousands of years of history.

[Beskar]

Rajpoot certainly just posted something very interesting. :bow:

Something to definitely keep a watch on.

[spankythehippo]

Skyrim was basically an improvement to both the former games, as expected. Going back to old games is mainly a nostalgia thing with most people. Generally, the gameplay dynamics tend to get better the newer the game.

In Skyrim, I chose Dark Elf since I consider it to be the best all rounder. I am predominantly a battle mage. I use magic a lot. Going back to Morrowind and playing as a Dark Elf, I barely used magic, since it drained me of my mana. This impacted heavily of my enjoyment of the game. I also highly enjoy good character customisation, which Morrowind lacks at. I remember playing Morrowind all those years ago and thinking it was fantastic. Now, not so much.

[Fragony]

A lack of mana is hardly a problem if you invest some points in alchemy. Morrowind isn't hard, it just doesn't nurse you all that much. Try Demon/dark souls for being compltelely thrown in. I wouldn't call it an 'old' game it is just a bit closer to classic rpg's where nothing is really explained. Fine with that. It's still my favourite of the bunch.

[Kralizec]

Tip for Oblivion players: use the deadly reflex mod, if you aren’t already. It makes melee combat a lot more interesting.

As for Morroblivion, I loved it. Amazing what they had done with it. However a lot of it was still missing when I played it – Solstheim was on the map but almost empty and the Bloodmoon quests weren’t worth playing. Maybe that’s changed, though.

Regular Morrowind: if you can get past the graphics, the biggest issue would be the uninspired and rather boring combat system. Most other issues, like the complicated class system, are relatively minor.

[HopAlongBunny]

I played Oblivion and Skyrim to death.

Each game was a lot of fun, but the destination is always the same: You become an unkillable murder machine and the game gets tedious rather than interesting.

I thought Skyrim might be different with a lev cap over 80, but by lev50 you are unbeatable-w/o exploits.

[rajpoot]

I thought Skyrim might be different with a lev cap over 80, but by lev50 you are unbeatable-w/o exploits.

That is when you start roleplaying as the breechcloth-barbarian to keep things interesting. :clown:

[TinCow]

Skyrim is absolutely a better game in many ways, but Morrowind just has a more interesting setting, really feels like a world with thousands of years of history.

I think this is correct. Skyrim pretty much wins on all the gameplay elements, but Vvardenfell is a setting that has yet to be beat. It even feels properly populated to a degree that Oblivion and Skyrim didn't.

[Kralizec]

I personally feel Morrowind was a product of its time, but if you put it up against Skyrim, it completely falls short. The controls and graphics will impact hard, the lack of dynamic characters is another as towns are populated by statues. I cannot honestly play Morrowind now and get into it, the whole impact is too jarring. A lot of praise is nostalgia, it is down to whether or not you can sit yourself through an old game and whether or not it would bother you.

I haven’t played Skyrim so I wouldn’t know about that, but in Oblivion I wasn’t that impressed by the general NPC behavior that was supposed to simulate daily life. The dialogue lines that NPC’s randomly exchange with eachother are inane and extremely repetitive. That shops are only open during certain hours I can tolerate and understand, but what really bugged me was that certain trainers wander off so that it’s extremely hard to find them during “open hours”. That people will sometimes exchange rumours about quests that the player has completed was a nice touch, but merely adds to the feeling that Cyrodil is an extremely small world.

There’s a mod for Morrowind that makes shop close at night, if that’s your thing, and also a mod that adds a lot of generic NPC’s (townspeople, traveling merchants, bounty hunters, etc) which spawn randomly in cities and disappear after a while. It was fittingly called Morrowind Comes Alive, I think.

[Mongoose]

Thanks for the input everyone! I think I'm leaning towards waiting for Skywind to come out. It looks pretty awesome.

I don't know if I'd miss the radiant AI too much. It's so poorly done that I think statue NPCs might hurt immerson less.

Here's an example: I'm not gonna spoil this plotline in Skyrim, in case anyone would mind, so let's just say I was standing outside the gates of a city in Skyrim with a mass of soldiers, ready to storm the city. A general outside was giving a rousing battle speech. He emphasized the bravery of our army, and the justness of our cause. He was getting really into it. He stood just outside the city gate, with his back to it. Directly behind him outside the gate stood a couple on their way to a wedding. They didn't mind the siege much. In fact, they stood a few feet away from the general, and bickered about the trip. It sounded like this:

"This day we will end this strife once and forever!"
[just as loud as the general] "Do we really have to go to this wedding?" asked the Husband.
[starting to shout really loudly] "YOUR BRAVERY WILL CARRY THE DAY AND YOU WILL EARN EVER LASTING VICTORY"
[still talking as loud as the general] "Yes, it's expected of us. Don't be rude" said the wife.
"MANY WILL DIE BUT WE WILL NEVER FORGOT THEIR SACRIFICE AND THEY WILL WIN HONOR"
"I'm not being rude, I just don't see why we have to come all the way out here."

(paraphrasing, forget the exact words).

[Kralizec]

This thread is the perfect excuse to post this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRW6Mcx0pfY

[ReluctantSamurai]

but Morrowind just has a more interesting setting, really feels like a world with thousands of years of history.

This. I remember my first game where I spent so much time panning the camera view at the scenery, that I would often stumble into an ambush before I knew it:laugh4:


Vvardenfell is a setting that has yet to be beat.

Even more so if you add in some of the environmental mods that add music, creatures, and landforms.

Morrowind just seemed easier to get immersed in as a world environment.

[lars573]

I think this is correct. Skyrim pretty much wins on all the gameplay elements, but Vvardenfell is a setting that has yet to be beat. It even feels properly populated to a degree that Oblivion and Skyrim didn't.
That's because starting with Oblivion the scale was cut way down. If you look at a lore map of Tamriel Vvardenfel is about half the size of Cyrodiil. But if you look at the games and square kilometres that the areas cover Cyrodiil is half to a third smaller than Vvardenfel. There is a reason it got nuked by Red mountain other than story potential.

[Vuk]

I will be the lone dissenting voice here and say that I think Morrowind sucks hard. In fact, I literally prefer Oblivion, as sad as that is. Skyrim is far better than either.

[johnhughthom]

You literally prefer Oblivion? Can you figuratively prefer something? :clown:

[Fragony]

That's because starting with Oblivion the scale was cut way down. If you look at a lore map of Tamriel Vvardenfel is about half the size of Cyrodiil. But if you look at the games and square kilometres that the areas cover Cyrodiil is half to a third smaller than Vvardenfel. There is a reason it got nuked by Red mountain other than story potential.

My main problem with Oblivion is that it's all to familiar, it's all medieval Europe. In Morrowind you had much more diversity, you felt like exploring instead of travelling. In Oblivion you also start almost directly in the capital completely ruining it's impact. Also no fan of fast travel.

[lars573]

In Arena all of Tamriel has the same architecture as Oblivion. Skyrim, Morrowind, Valenwood all look exactly like Cyrodiil. In Daggerfall High Rock looks a lot like Oblivion. In a lot of ways Morrowind is an odd duck in looks compared to the rest of the series.


I will be the lone dissenting voice here and say that I think Morrowind sucks hard. In fact, I literally prefer Oblivion, as sad as that is. Skyrim is far better than either.
This is about the only thing we'd ever agree on.

[Kralizec]

You're entitled to your opinion of course, no matter how wrong it is :clown:

Morrowind did have flaws. But if you think it sucked, then why did you bother with its sequels at all? Skyrim sounds to be quite different in several respects, but Oblivion? As far as skills/leverlling was concerned Oblivion was basically a more streamlined, but dumbed-down version of Morrowind.

Add to that:
- Graphics are better, but the scenery is more generic
- The main quest was okay but not great, and the optional quests fewer in number and generally less interesting (notable exception - the Dark Brotherhood questline, which was pretty cool)
- Melee combat was much improved, but still lacking until Deadly Reflex came out. Plus - no more spears, crossbows or throwing weapons. There are mods that correct that too, with mixed results

To me personally, Oblivion is the archtypical sequel to a good game that added some minor novelties but removed several things which made the previous game great.

[lars573]

Imagine a game that you enjoyed well enough. But had numerous HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE flaws. So huge that you'd broken controllers* over them, or stopped playing the game for weeks at a time. If not for those flaws you'd have loved the game more than any other, and it would have earned an eternal warm place in your heart. Then years later a sequel to said game comes out that solves all of your problems. At the cost of some features that you never used (due to low functionality), and some content you never got to as the game was such a slog to get through.


If you can imagine that, then you can begin to understand why I love Oblivion so much more than Morrowind.







*When I say broken controller I mean broke the screw holes. I have two OG Xbox controllers held together by tape that are still functional.

[TinCow]

...I played Morrowind on a console...

Yeah, I think I understand the problem.

[lars573]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

[Beskar]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

Consoles are dumbed down PC's...

I use a controller for my PC (Xbox360 one) and I play a lot of games with it. I do prefer controller in many games, Skyrim being one of them. But PC versions give mods, and these are very important as it allows you to get so much more out of the game. I have Skyrim on Xbox and recently on PC, and with the mods, it gave Skyrim new life that I am replaying it.

[rajpoot]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

And Oxygen is unhealthy if breathed in.

[Mongoose]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

I see a lot of console advantages, like better controls (although this can be helped by simply using an xbox controller with a PC). For Bethesda games, though, which are deepy modable but initially disfunctional, lacking access to mods can detract from the experience. Take Oblivion, for instance. The regular leveling system in Oblivion is basically broken. It does not function as it should. You can actually do much better in the game by selecting rarely used or needed skills as majors, because the the world levels with you such that getting too good at acrobatics too fast will just populate the world with daedric weapon-wielding bandits while you are still bad at using a sword. And even when your character can cope with it, it's very strange to gradually start running into bandits with "epic" equipment ever 10 minutes. Fortunately, there are mods that resolve this problem by adjusting the leveling mechanics so that picking the skills you intend to use as majors will actually help you. Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul achieves this by setting limits on NPC scaling, and making "easy" and "difficult" dungeons so that the game remains challening (more challening, in fact).

Of course, this assumes that you're willing to fiddle with the game and invest time trawling through mods. I love using mods but I don't particularily like the process of downloading, installing, and figuring out which ones to use when I'd rather just play the game.

[lars573]

Consoles are dumbed down PC's...
You say it like that matters even a little.


I use a controller for my PC (Xbox360 one) and I play a lot of games with it. I do prefer controller in many games, Skyrim being one of them. But PC versions give mods, and these are very important as it allows you to get so much more out of the game. I have Skyrim on Xbox and recently on PC, and with the mods, it gave Skyrim new life that I am replaying it.
Most mods for a game like ES suck. Not worth the hassle of the PC version. And the DLC for Skyrim does a lot more to extend the experience than some dumb-ass mod ever could.


I see a lot of console advantages, like better controls (although this can be helped by simply using an xbox controller with a PC). For Bethesda games, though, which are deepy modable but initially disfunctional, lacking access to mods can detract from the experience. Take Oblivion, for instance. The regular leveling system in Oblivion is basically broken. It does not function as it should. You can actually do much better in the game by selecting rarely used or needed skills as majors, because the the world levels with you such that getting too good at acrobatics too fast will just populate the world with daedric weapon-wielding bandits while you are still bad at using a sword. And even when your character can cope with it, it's very strange to gradually start running into bandits with "epic" equipment ever 10 minutes. Fortunately, there are mods that resolve this problem by adjusting the leveling mechanics so that picking the skills you intend to use as majors will actually help you. Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul achieves this by setting limits on NPC scaling, and making "easy" and "difficult" dungeons so that the game remains challening (more challening, in fact).
It's this kind of wrong headed thinking that's the problem with Oblivion. There is nothing in fact wrong with the level scaling in Oblivion. It works exactly as Bethesda intended it to work. It's not their fault that when you game the system it blows up in your face. Play the game as was intended and the level scaling works just fine. Although I can't fault Bethesda for avoiding all the tomfoolery associated with acrobatics and athletics by removing them as skills and making them carved in stone race stats in Skyrim.

[Fragony]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

que, exactly the other way around, proper rpg needs hotkeys. Wii-U might change that though but I doubt the hardcore pc-audience is interested in a Wii-U because of the lack of mods

[TinCow]

RPG's are unfit to be played on a PC.

You're talking about a game that was designed primarily for the PC and which had relatively little effort put into the console port. You were playing the game on a platform that it was not intended for. PC gamers feel the same pain when we get a crappy port of a console game. Oblivion and Skyrim were designed from the ground up to have a console interface, so they performed far better on the console than their predecessor.

[TinCow]

Most mods for a game like ES suck. Not worth the hassle of the PC version. And the DLC for Skyrim does a lot more to extend the experience than some dumb-ass mod ever could.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[Kralizec]

You're talking about a game that was designed primarily for the PC and which had relatively little effort put into the console port. You were playing the game on a platform that it was not intended for. PC gamers feel the same pain when we get a crappy port of a console game. Oblivion and Skyrim were designed from the ground up to have a console interface, so they performed far better on the console than their predecessor.

I’ve read somewhere that the hardware limits of consoles were the reason why Oblivion didn’t have Levitation spells like Morrowind, and why the cities are seperate cells from the broader world (the interior of cities is actually rendered when you’re outside the walls, but very poorly). Gah!

[lars573]

Actually Oblivions cities being separate areas was a bid for greater stability (along with auto saving after going through all doors). Player levitation had to go because there were no transition points on the top of the walls. And because it could only been seen from far away they didn't bother with bump mapping beyond blob in the distance.


You're talking about a game that was designed primarily for the PC and which had relatively little effort put into the console port. You were playing the game on a platform that it was not intended for. PC gamers feel the same pain when we get a crappy port of a console game. Oblivion and Skyrim were designed from the ground up to have a console interface, so they performed far better on the console than their predecessor.
That never mattered to me. I have never had a problem with the interface. My huge problems with Morrowind lay elsewhere.


You have no idea what you are talking about.
Oh I do know. I look over ES mods from time to time. 80% are hey I added something that really doesn't belong to the game. The other 10% are adding in poorly designed quests with stupidly over powered weapons, the final 10% are new textures. Nothing that even remotely interests me.

[TinCow]

Oh I do know. I look over ES mods from time to time. 80% are hey I added something that really doesn't belong to the game. The other 10% are adding in poorly designed quests with stupidly over powered weapons, the final 10% are new textures. Nothing that even remotely interests me.

No, you clearly don't know. I have heavily modded every single Bethsoft game from Morrowind to Skyrim, including the Fallout franchise. Without exception it is the mods that turn the base games into proper masterpieces. They fix issues, add new content, remove annoyances, increase difficulty, encourage exploration, etc. It's true that most mods are tiny things and many are pathetic and not worth using, but there are always some towering works that dramatically improve the game. For example, Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul (http://oblivion.nexusmods.com/mods/15256) for Oblivion or Project Nevada (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/40040/) for FO:NV. For all Bethsoft games, I play the game once through with no mods (except UI to fix consolitis). After that I never play any of them again unmodded.

[lars573]

No, you clearly don't know. I have heavily modded every single Bethsoft game from Morrowind to Skyrim, including the Fallout franchise. Without exception it is the mods that turn the base games into proper masterpieces. They fix issues (that probably don't actually exist), add new content (that sucks), remove annoyances (not everyone agrees with that), increase difficulty (unnecessary), encourage exploration (what kind of lazy turd needs that?), etc. It's true that most mods are tiny things and many are pathetic and not worth using, but there are always some towering works that dramatically improve the game. For example, Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul (http://oblivion.nexusmods.com/mods/15256) for Oblivion or Project Nevada (http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/mods/40040/) for FO:NV. For all Bethsoft games, I play the game once through with no mods (except UI to fix consolitis). After that I never play any of them again unmodded.
And that's why all the mods suck. The bigger ones are in fact the worst offenders of being useless drivel.

[TinCow]

Clearly our views are so radically different on this issue that further debate is pointless. I shall therefore sign off on this one.

[Mongoose]

Most mods for a game like ES suck. Not worth the hassle of the PC version. And the DLC for Skyrim does a lot more to extend the experience than some dumb-ass mod ever could.


It's this kind of wrong headed thinking that's the problem with Oblivion. There is nothing in fact wrong with the level scaling in Oblivion. It works exactly as Bethesda intended it to work. It's not their fault that when you game the system it blows up in your face. Play the game as was intended and the level scaling works just fine. Although I can't fault Bethesda for avoiding all the tomfoolery associated with acrobatics and athletics by removing them as skills and making them carved in stone race stats in Skyrim.

Really? Hearthfire and Dawn Guard better than any possible mod? You must really dislike mods.

What about bug fixing mods (the unofficial patch mods) that don't do anything other than fix stuff like scripting errors in quests (and please don't tell me that these do not exist in abundance)? Surely you would agree that having access to things like this a benefit? What about massive graphics improvements (without performance hits) with mods like Skyrim HD? On that note, what about performance increasing mods?

The problem with the Oblivion leveling system is that it doesn't blow up in your face if you game the system, it actually works much better for you. Is it wrong-headed thinking to expect the game to reward you for actually following the premise of its mechanics? If you have to impose iron-man rules on yourself to follow the basic idea of their skill system, is that not a sign the game is broken? If you level up a lot before doing certain mainquest sections, they actually get harder than for a level one character. On that note, a low-level character can do basically everything in the game, which is weird and counter-intuitive.

I'd say the scaling system in Oblivion would be like if in a Total War game, flanking an enemy unit actually increased the effectiveness of the flanked unit, meaning that not flanking at all would make the game easier for the player. Yeah, a disciplined player might continue to flank anyway to keep the experience challenging and more immersive, and that might work just fine for people, but the game would be nevertheless broken.

Skyrim, I admit, is perfectly fine without mods, but I wouldn't say the same about Oblivion.

And how can you defend 1:1 scaling, to the extent where every bandit will eventually have access to super weapons? Doesn't it hurt your immersion if every random thug in Cyrodial has daedric armor?

[Husar]

Clearly our views are so radically different on this issue that further debate is pointless. I shall therefore sign off on this one.

Radical being the keyword here.

I prefer my RPGs on PC, mods or not. I simply don't find using a controller preferable for things like aiming with arrows. And don't come with auto aim, there's a time and place for auto aim but manual aim has it's own merits, especially if hit zones are involved.

As for Morrowind, Skyrim and so on, I think too many RPGs lack spears or implement them in a relatively lackluster way. One of the best ways to use spears is for guards, a guard standing there with a spear in his hand looks much better than with an axe or sword on the belt.
I also can't think of many RPGs where spears could be used over the head, like in the good old days (Titan Quest has it IIRC). As such they really took something away with Oblivion (spears, in case it's not obvious ~;) ). I skipped Oblivion though because of the enemy levelling, which I clearly don't like. Skyrim is pretty good, like it a lot, still somewhat weird that one guy dressed in a pelt can withstand two hits while the other survives ten but overall it seems somewhat better than Oblivion in this regard.

What the games lack IMO is a use for your positions. Ok, you become head honcho and get a mansion or a new trader or whatnot, but why can't you do other stuff with the organization you're now the head of? Once you reach the top of any organization, they could open up completely new systems, like a faction war and whatnot. Yes, it would make the game a lot more difficult and complex (programming-wise) but it would also give more of a feeling of accomplishment compared to some guys using a different "hello"-sentence now. Plus it would reward the relatively linear ranking up with some sandboxy part where you control your faction. I remember in the original Gothic I used console cheats to create my own little "army". It was a lot of fun not to venture everywhere alone and have a little group of warriors to fight enemies with. Not something for the adventure aspect of course but I'm talking about the end-game. This would even allow to make some enemies so strong that the player could never beat them alone until he has a group of warriors etc.

I got carried away there but that's because in both Skyrim and Morrowind I kept playing until the challenge was mostly gone and the games become rather blunt at that point, which is something they have in common.

[Mongoose]

What the games lack IMO is a use for your positions. Ok, you become head honcho and get a mansion or a new trader or whatnot, but why can't you do other stuff with the organization you're now the head of? Once you reach the top of any organization, they could open up completely new systems, like a faction war and whatnot. Yes, it would make the game a lot more difficult and complex (programming-wise) but it would also give more of a feeling of accomplishment compared to some guys using a different "hello"-sentence now. Plus it would reward the relatively linear ranking up with some sandboxy part where you control your faction. I remember in the original Gothic I used console cheats to create my own little "army". It was a lot of fun not to venture everywhere alone and have a little group of warriors to fight enemies with. Not something for the adventure aspect of course but I'm talking about the end-game. This would even allow to make some enemies so strong that the player could never beat them alone until he has a group of warriors etc.


I agree. Becoming the archmage is fun, but being the archmage disappoints on many levels.

Perhaps part of the problem is that the games try so hard to always provide as many choices as possible, thus making it absolutely essiential that every one of those choices be meaningless, because any consequences might hamper the player's ability to do whatever they wanted later. So you can always join every faction and finish all the plotlines and none of it will ever influence anything besides literally two or three lines of dialogue.

[Beskar]

124 Steam workshop mods and another 7-8 Nexus ones for Skyrim. All I have to say, it really changes the experience a lot for the better.

[Mongoose]

Besides replacing the subpar vanilla textures, I actually haven't modded Skyrim too much yet. What are you all using?
I currently have locational damage (critical effects for hitting different areas), warzones (makes the civil actually ... a civil war, with fighting in the countryside), tougher dragons (vanilla ones are easier than bears), and some face stuff, and better quest objective text (so you can know where to go without blindly following arrows). Any good gameplay overhauls? By the way I would recommend everything I am using, but it's pretty close to vanilla skyrim, which I suppose might actually be a good thing depending on what you want.

War zones: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/9494
Better Quest Objectives: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/11135
Skyrim HD: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/607
Locational Damage: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/12615
Tougher Dragons:http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/13463
this one is actually a bit more severe the one I'm using, but I can't find mine.

[lars573]

Really? Hearthfire and Dawn Guard better than any possible mod? You must really dislike mods.
Dawn guard without question. Hearthfire, yeah sure.



What about bug fixing mods (the unofficial patch mods) that don't do anything other than fix stuff like scripting errors in quests (and please don't tell me that these do not exist in abundance)? Surely you would agree that having access to things like this a benefit? What about massive graphics improvements (without performance hits) with mods like Skyrim HD? On that note, what about performance increasing mods?
These are what fall under the "probably don't actually exist" category. Scripting errors are when something doesn't happen when it supposed too. When that happens you reload the last auto save. Not a huge deal, and something I barely notice.


The problem with the Oblivion leveling system is that it doesn't blow up in your face if you game the system, it actually works much better for you. Is it wrong-headed thinking to expect the game to reward you for actually following the premise of its mechanics? If you have to impose iron-man rules on yourself to follow the basic idea of their skill system, is that not a sign the game is broken? If you level up a lot before doing certain mainquest sections, they actually get harder than for a level one character. On that note, a low-level character can do basically everything in the game, which is weird and counter-intuitive.
Yes it is very much wrong headed. Because it fails to account for a design ethic Bethesda had when building the game (something all press for every ES game I've played has had). Their vision of open world. Go any where, do anything, when ever you want. By implication at any level you want. I hardly call don't be an idiot, have a little patience and build your skills evenly iron man rules. Where are these sections you speak of? I never had much more trouble at low or high levels in Oblivion. Because I wasn't an impatient idiot and built my skills evenly. By your logic Skyrim is just as broken as Oblivion. As both games spawn enemies in dungeons keyed to your level when you enter.



I'd say the scaling system in Oblivion would be like if in a Total War game, flanking an enemy unit actually increased the effectiveness of the flanked unit, meaning that not flanking at all would make the game easier for the player. Yeah, a disciplined player might continue to flank anyway to keep the experience challenging and more immersive, and that might work just fine for people, but the game would be nevertheless broken.
The analogy doesn't work. Level scaling in Oblivion does not have the results you describe.


Skyrim, I admit, is perfectly fine without mods, but I wouldn't say the same about Oblivion.

And how can you defend 1:1 scaling, to the extent where every bandit will eventually have access to super weapons? Doesn't it hurt your immersion if every random thug in Cyrodial has daedric armor?
Nope. Considering they level as you do, and when you kill a thing that drops armour it changes based on level. It's perfectly logical that on Tamriel a random bandit could end up with daedric or glass gear. Because if you can, they can.



I prefer my RPGs on PC, mods or not. I simply don't find using a controller preferable for things like aiming with arrows. And don't come with auto aim, there's a time and place for auto aim but manual aim has it's own merits, especially if hit zones are involved.
I can't aim with a mouse. Thumb sticks or nothing.



What the games lack IMO is a use for your positions. Ok, you become head honcho and get a mansion or a new trader or whatnot, but why can't you do other stuff with the organization you're now the head of? Once you reach the top of any organization, they could open up completely new systems, like a faction war and whatnot. Yes, it would make the game a lot more difficult and complex (programming-wise) but it would also give more of a feeling of accomplishment compared to some guys using a different "hello"-sentence now. Plus it would reward the relatively linear ranking up with some sandboxy part where you control your faction. I remember in the original Gothic I used console cheats to create my own little "army". It was a lot of fun not to venture everywhere alone and have a little group of warriors to fight enemies with. Not something for the adventure aspect of course but I'm talking about the end-game. This would even allow to make some enemies so strong that the player could never beat them alone until he has a group of warriors etc.
Haven't played much Skyrim then?

[rajpoot]

I can't aim with a mouse.

......
That's kind of a basic requirement for using most GUI based OSs today on a PC. Moving the pointer to icons and clicking them, is more or less the same as using the mouse to aim in an RPG.
Also I'm pretty sure that many people like me find it impossible to aim with a controller. Aiming with a mouse is so much more organic and intuitive.

[TinCow]

Yes it is very much wrong headed. Because it fails to account for a design ethic Bethesda had when building the game (something all press for every ES game I've played has had). Their vision of open world. Go any where, do anything, when ever you want. By implication at any level you want.

And yet Bethsoft conceded that the Oblivion scaling system was a mistake and they have not used it since.

[Beskar]

......
That's kind of a basic requirement for using most GUI based OSs today on a PC. Moving the pointer to icons and clicking them, is more or less the same as using the mouse to aim in an RPG.
Also I'm pretty sure that many people like me find it impossible to aim with a controller. Aiming with a mouse is so much more organic and intuitive.

Actually, it isn't that bad as it sounds. By aiming, it means, able to point over a target and accurately get a shot off, such as archer. Not all mice are great for this, especially wireless ones where tiny movements are not translated to the computer. I had a wireless mouse which required you to move it through a threashold before it registers and it made pinpoint aiming nearly impossible on moving targets, since the movement required was too mouse for the mice to accurately measure. In games where the stick is optimised for the game (typically ports), all it requires is a thumb twiddle and you have the target in your sights and able to accurately aim. However, in unoptimised games, this can be very choring as they don't make use of the sensitivity of the stick, so where in an optimised games putting it in a greater at different angles makes it moves slower or faster, in unoptimised, it is a set speed.

I find using controllers much more comfortable and relaxing. I don't have to bend over a keyboard, I can sit back, chill and relax on a comfy chair and play and I find xbox360 controllers typically being the best style. So I am using controller on Skyrim/Dungeon Defenders/Assassins Creed (etc) and K/M for Crusader Kings 2/MMO (too many buttons)/etc

[Kralizec]

These are what fall under the "probably don't actually exist" category. Scripting errors are when something doesn't happen when it supposed too. When that happens you reload the last auto save. Not a huge deal, and something I barely notice.

The bugs fixed by the "unofficial patches" are innumerable. Allthough admittedly, most of them are relatively minor.

As for the mods in general, I agree with TinCow that you really dont know what you're talking about. Since you only played Morrowind on PC, and not for very long apparently, I also think its safe to say that youre not speaking from actual experience.
To be clear: the vast majority of mods are pretty simple and mundane, tweaking some textures or some new unimaginative fantasy weapon or whatever. Some of those however, happen to be extremely good. Furthermore there are a lot of mods that fundamentally alter (and improve) gameplay. Deadly Reflex is probably the best example of that; look up some videos on youtube to see. There are also quest mods but I havent tried those for Oblivion.


Nope. Considering they level as you do, and when you kill a thing that drops armour it changes based on level. It's perfectly logical that on Tamriel a random bandit could end up with daedric or glass gear. Because if you can, they can.

Then this really begs the question why you wont encounter a single marauder with daedric armor during the early levels. Is there a surge in glass and daedric imports that happens to coincide with your levelling? The higher level armors are supposed to be rare (they were in morrowind) and are heinously expensive (still true, though not so much as in morrowind). That every bandit in Cyrodil has Elven armor or better once you reach the higher levels is extremely daft.

To be honest; I did exploit this "feature" mercilessly. Every once in a while I would revisit old dungeons to mine them, killing the inhabitants and selling all their arms and armor for cash. But then again, it does hurt immersion, and besides I routinely exploit other features of the game. The intelligence-boosted alchemy tactic from Morrowind comes to mind.

[lars573]

......
That's kind of a basic requirement for using most GUI based OSs today on a PC. Moving the pointer to icons and clicking them, is more or less the same as using the mouse to aim in an RPG.
Also I'm pretty sure that many people like me find it impossible to aim with a controller. Aiming with a mouse is so much more organic and intuitive.
I have to use a mouse to slowly that in a gaming setting it's an extreme hinderance, not a help. I never finished Diablo 2 because I'd end up running in circles around the bosses and they'd kill me. And to bring it back toe ES series I never used ranged combat before they made it work right in Skyrim. In Oblivion and especially Morrowind it's functionality is extremely low.


And yet Bethsoft conceded that the Oblivion scaling system was a mistake and they have not used it since.
I was pondering on ES level keying last night. I realized that the functionally level keying in ES III, IV, and V are the same. Biggest difference is that in Oblivion the cap on gear for mortal enemies (bandits and the like) was removed entirely.


The bugs fixed by the "unofficial patches" are innumerable. Allthough admittedly, most of them are relatively minor.

As for the mods in general, I agree with TinCow that you really dont know what you're talking about. Since you only played Morrowind on PC, and not for very long apparently, I also think its safe to say that youre not speaking from actual experience.
To be clear: the vast majority of mods are pretty simple and mundane, tweaking some textures or some new unimaginative fantasy weapon or whatever. Some of those however, happen to be extremely good. Furthermore there are a lot of mods that fundamentally alter (and improve) gameplay. Deadly Reflex is probably the best example of that; look up some videos on youtube to see. There are also quest mods but I havent tried those for Oblivion.
I've never played an ES game on PC, and I won't either. I have both Xbox versions of Morrowind, and I'd never give up the refill health/magika,stamina cheats. I managed to get by without them in Oblivion and Skyrim. But in Morrowind you really need them, given the games massive flaws in travel and combat. And I have looked at some of them. My one though. Waste. Of. Time. Mine looking at it, yours using it, them making it.



Then this really begs the question why you wont encounter a single marauder with daedric armor during the early levels. Is there a surge in glass and daedric imports that happens to coincide with your levelling? The higher level armors are supposed to be rare (they were in morrowind) and are heinously expensive (still true, though not so much as in morrowind). That every bandit in Cyrodil has Elven armor or better once you reach the higher levels is extremely daft.

To be honest; I did exploit this "feature" mercilessly. Every once in a while I would revisit old dungeons to mine them, killing the inhabitants and selling all their arms and armor for cash. But then again, it does hurt immersion, and besides I routinely exploit other features of the game. The intelligence-boosted alchemy tactic from Morrowind comes to mind.
The way gear has always worked in ES games "breaks emersion." In all of them you go from basic iron and leather, to steel, to ancient meric, to super fancy. Why is it daft that the rules that apply to everyone else? It's not. Daft is when rules only apply to the player and not the world at large.

[TinCow]

I was pondering on ES level keying last night. I realized that the functionally level keying in ES III, IV, and V are the same. Biggest difference is that in Oblivion the cap on gear for mortal enemies (bandits and the like) was removed entirely.

That's entirely incorrect. This is how the systems work:

Morrowind: All areas have creature levels and loot which are static and do not change based on the character's level. The classic old-school method.

Oblivion: All creatures (and loot) everywhere are spawned based on the level of the player. Creature levels increase as the character's level increases, so that the same level of difficulty (and reward) is encountered everywhere.

Fallout 3 and New Vegas: Areas have difficulty rating ranges and creatures are locked into that range the first time a player enters the area, but the ranges do not change later on. Levels will scale with the player, but only within the constraints of the range limits. For example, if a starting character moves to an area with a level range of 15-25, that area will spawn level 15ish creatures and will be, essentially, off-limits. However, the difficulty of that area will not change later in the game, so that it will still have level 15ish creatures if you return there around level 25. Some areas are designed to be 'harder' areas, and their levels will be set several ranks higher than the character's if the character is within the acceptable range, otherwise it will be the minimum level for the area. Even in these situations though, the difficulty will not reset itself later. Most loot will be leveled, but some is static and specific to certain dungeons/locations.

Skyrim: The same as FO3 and FO:NV, except that areas reset themselves after having been cleared and thus can increase in difficulty given enough in-game time.

The problem with the Morrowind system are that (1) everything is boring and predictable with a set area progression and (2) once you've passed the level for an area it becomes very easy (and thus boring). The problems with the Oblivion system are that (1) everything is the same difficulty no matter where you go and (2) there is no benefit to exploring random dungeons because leveled random loot means you can get the same loot from any dungeon. A random dungeon is a random dungeon is a random dungeon, and there is no real point in going to different ones except for some variety in the design and the type of creatures you are fighting.

As you can see, from FO3 forward Bethsoft moved towards a hybrid of the systems used in Morrowind and Oblivion. In general, I think it has worked well, though I think they tend to err on the low side when making difficulty ranges. That said, I'm a glutton for difficulty and probably don't represent the average player in that regard. I'm perfectly happy using mods to increase my difficulty and thus don't have many complaints with the current system.

[lars573]

That's entirely incorrect. This is how the systems work:
Actually you're way off base.


Morrowind: All areas have creature levels and loot which are static and do not change based on the character's level. The classic old-school method.That is not how it works. I suppose if you don't pay attention if could appear that way. As in Morrowind areas don't respawn like they do in ES IV and V. When you enter an area in Morrowind it spawns enemies based on your level.


Oblivion: All creatures (and loot) everywhere are spawned based on the level of the player. Creature levels increase as the character's level increases, so that the same level of difficulty (and reward) is encountered everywhere.
This is how it works in all ES games, even Morrowind. If that wasn't true Cliffracers wouldn't present any threat once you reached higher levels. But they do throughout the entire f-ing game.


Fallout 3 and New Vegas: Areas have difficulty rating ranges and creatures are locked into that range the first time a player enters the area, but the ranges do not change later on. Levels will scale with the player, but only within the constraints of the range limits. For example, if a starting character moves to an area with a level range of 15-25, that area will spawn level 15ish creatures and will be, essentially, off-limits. However, the difficulty of that area will not change later in the game, so that it will still have level 15ish creatures if you return there around level 25. Some areas are designed to be 'harder' areas, and their levels will be set several ranks higher than the character's if the character is within the acceptable range, otherwise it will be the minimum level for the area. Even in these situations though, the difficulty will not reset itself later. Most loot will be leveled, but some is static and specific to certain dungeons/locations.

Skyrim: The same as FO3 and FO:NV, except that areas reset themselves after having been cleared and thus can increase in difficulty given enough in-game time.
The FO system is not how it works in Skyrim. I've never encountered an area in Skyrim that's effectively off limits like Old Olney in FO3 (I only just got New Vegas last night).


The problem with the Morrowind system are that (1) everything is boring and predictable with a set area progression and (2) once you've passed the level for an area it becomes very easy (and thus boring). The problems with the Oblivion system are that (1) everything is the same difficulty no matter where you go and (2) there is no benefit to exploring random dungeons because leveled random loot means you can get the same loot from any dungeon. A random dungeon is a random dungeon is a random dungeon, and there is no real point in going to different ones except for some variety in the design and the type of creatures you are fighting.

As you can see, from FO3 forward Bethsoft moved towards a hybrid of the systems used in Morrowind and Oblivion. In general, I think it has worked well, though I think they tend to err on the low side when making difficulty ranges. That said, I'm a glutton for difficulty and probably don't represent the average player in that regard. I'm perfectly happy using mods to increase my difficulty and thus don't have many complaints with the current system.
That things you're complaining about in Oblivion have happened to me in Morrowind.

[TinCow]

Actually you're way off base.

That is not how it works. I suppose if you don't pay attention if could appear that way. As in Morrowind areas don't respawn like they do in ES IV and V. When you enter an area in Morrowind it spawns enemies based on your level.

There are some areas where that is true, but there are significant parts of it that are static. In addition, the only spawn variables are which creatures that spawn, not the toughness of the creatures. A Golden Saint is a Golden Saint is a Golden Saint. It never gets harder or easier.

All you need to disprove your leveling theory is to walk to the northern blightlands as a starting character. You will never survive up there because the creatures are much higher level than you. There are also numerous static creatures throughout the game world that are always there and are always the same level every single time regardless of the status of the player.


This is how it works in all ES games, even Morrowind. If that wasn't true Cliffracers wouldn't present any threat once you reached higher levels. But they do throughout the entire f-ing game.

I'm starting to wonder if there's another game out there called Morrowind and we're talking about separate things. Cliffracers are never a threat at higher levels, they're just annoying. That's what they're famous for. Annoyance, not difficulty.

[Conradus]

From UESPwiki

Enemy Scaling
Creatures do not scale to your level; their stats are fixed.(Morrowind)
Most enemies will be level-dependent, and will be more powerful when you are a higher level. Different and more powerful variations of enemies appear at higher levels.(Oblivion)
Most enemies will be level-dependent, and will be more powerful when you are a higher level. Most enemies have a level range, restricting their leveling to minimum and maximum levels.(Skyrim)

[Husar]

Haven't played much Skyrim then?

You tell me. I'm head of the assassins' guild, head of the thieves' guild, completed the imperial quests and was working on the fighter guild's quest (forgot the name in the game) when I realized that working my way up hardly yielded any real, believable benefits for me. Either the game spams you with random miniquests or people lost all interest to talk to you or they behave just like they did when you were a member.
You'd even think getting to the top of organizations that oppose one another is a bit weird but it worked just flawlessly because your rank in any organization has no real tangible effect on anything. I admit it may be hard to program otherwise but it does make me a bit sad and reduces my willingness to replay since I can do all the quests with one char who is so strong that nothing can stop her/him.
RPGs that make you choose a faction, align with it and then live with your decision may be less sandboxy in that regard but they create a more believable world where choices matter and you can replay them aligned to another faction to get a different experience. What they all lack though is the aspect of actually using the influence you get in real life once you're at the top, only Mount&Blade Warband (and possibly other M&B games) seems to have such mechanics as far as I can tell.

[Kralizec]

In Morrowind all NPC's had predetermined stats, including "bandits" in caves and whatnot. Aside from the guards and those "dreamers", there were no generic NPC types as I recall. Again, there were mods which corrected this ~;)

The only level-based adjustment in Morrowind is with generic, respawning creatures - some places have undead or daedrae in them, but the specific type depends on your level. Once you've become powerful enough that you can defeat Golden Saints easily, there's no real challenge except quest-specific enemies.

[Mongoose]

These are what fall under the "probably don't actually exist" category. Scripting errors are when something doesn't happen when it supposed too. When that happens you reload the last auto save. Not a huge deal, and something I barely notice.

Here I will concede that you may just be luckier than I am. You've never had follower issues and stuff like that?



Yes it is very much wrong headed. Because it fails to account for a design ethic Bethesda had when building the game (something all press for every ES game I've played has had). Their vision of open world. Go any where, do anything, when ever you want. By implication at any level you want. I hardly call don't be an idiot, have a little patience and build your skills evenly iron man rules. Where are these sections you speak of? I never had much more trouble at low or high levels in Oblivion. Because I wasn't an impatient idiot and built my skills evenly. By your logic Skyrim is just as broken as Oblivion. As both games spawn enemies in dungeons keyed to your level when you enter.

I disagree that the system should prohibit "unbalanced" leveling, especially in a game where, as you point out, the goal is absolute freedom!

That's not true in Skyrim. Bandits and many other creatures have some sort of cap, so there are limits to how powerful they get. I'm not totally against leveling, I'm just against Oblivion's simple 1:1 scale. A less extreme version would be fine.

By "iron man rules," I mean this: an artifical limit the player imposes on themselves in order to make the experience more satisfying. Using the Oblivion skill system as intended (i.e., leveling at all or even picking the skills you want) makes the game more difficult for the player. Thus choosing to use it fits the definition for an "iron man" rule.

This issue aside, though, I never built my skills "unevenly," so I never experienced much outright difficulty with the system. For me the issue was this: I would get XP in, let's say, blade, and get better at blade. But as the enemies around me scaled, they gained more health. So whether I had 20 blade or 50 blade, it made no difference at all: the same bandit takes the same number of hits to knock down regardless of level. This really defeats the point of skill building or XP. If it's going to scale like that, why even bother with leveling? They could have gotten the same thing by having people just pick a class with set stats and then not bother with leveling at all. Effectively that would achieve the same results. If a mechanic in the game is pointless and adds nothing, than that mechanic is broken (unless it is intended to be pointless in which case it's just completely banal).



The analogy doesn't work. Level scaling in Oblivion does not have the results you describe.

It does work. Getting better at blade does not make your character better at blade. That is about equal to flanking not actually providing a combat bonus, because both cases indicate non-function game mechanic.



Nope. Considering they level as you do, and when you kill a thing that drops armour it changes based on level. It's perfectly logical that on Tamriel a random bandit could end up with daedric or glass gear. Because if you can, they can.

Yeah, but it's just pushing things that all of them would, and only after a certain point. The player character gets special stuff because they run around and do stuff like become archmage or head of some other guild or whatever. If these bandits are so powerful why are they just robbing random people in the woods? It would be like a street gang having fighter jets and tanks but then only using them to mug people. Masses of bandits having super-armor makes no sense. Where are they getting it from? Why do they have better stuff than the Imperial Army?



Haven't played much Skyrim then?

I don't get to do **** as archmage. Maybe the other plot lines are different.

[Kralizec]

I have to use a mouse to slowly that in a gaming setting it's an extreme hinderance, not a help. I never finished Diablo 2 because I'd end up running in circles around the bosses and they'd kill me. And to bring it back toe ES series I never used ranged combat before they made it work right in Skyrim. In Oblivion and especially Morrowind it's functionality is extremely low.

The problem lies with you, not with the game. Ranged combat, wether spells or marksman weapons, worked well enough in both Morrowind and Oblivion. In combination with sneak it is simply deadly.


The way gear has always worked in ES games "breaks emersion." In all of them you go from basic iron and leather, to steel, to ancient meric, to super fancy. Why is it daft that the rules that apply to everyone else? It's not. Daft is when rules only apply to the player and not the world at large.

Dude, the number one source of super-armor are those bandits and marauders in the first place! Also the Dremora in the plane of Oblivion at higher levels, but Ive never encountered anybody else there scavenging for armor.

They could have done the same levelling system, more or less, without giving all bandits elven/glass armor. Simply give them a complete set of lesser armor and maybe some non-equipment perks like increased strength and so on. It is daft that every petty criminal in the province owns a suit of armor that is vastly better than what legionaires or members of the blades wear.

[Conradus]

You tell me. I'm head of the assassins' guild, head of the thieves' guild, completed the imperial quests and was working on the fighter guild's quest (forgot the name in the game) when I realized that working my way up hardly yielded any real, believable benefits for me. Either the game spams you with random miniquests or people lost all interest to talk to you or they behave just like they did when you were a member.
You'd even think getting to the top of organizations that oppose one another is a bit weird but it worked just flawlessly because your rank in any organization has no real tangible effect on anything. I admit it may be hard to program otherwise but it does make me a bit sad and reduces my willingness to replay since I can do all the quests with one char who is so strong that nothing can stop her/him.
RPGs that make you choose a faction, align with it and then live with your decision may be less sandboxy in that regard but they create a more believable world where choices matter and you can replay them aligned to another faction to get a different experience. What they all lack though is the aspect of actually using the influence you get in real life once you're at the top, only Mount&Blade Warband (and possibly other M&B games) seems to have such mechanics as far as I can tell.

Morrowind had this in some respects. It was impossible to join all three Houses (except by a glitch). There were also problems to finish both the Thieves and Fighter Guild questlines, but by a sidequest this was still possible. Loved how they handled it there.

[TinCow]

Morrowind had this in some respects. It was impossible to join all three Houses (except by a glitch). There were also problems to finish both the Thieves and Fighter Guild questlines, but by a sidequest this was still possible. Loved how they handled it there.

Vampire: Bloodlines had a bit of it as well, in the form of the vampire clans. Each one had exclusive content that you couldn't access unless you were one of their members. It was a character-creation choice rather than in-game, but had a decent impact on the game.

[rajpoot]

Vampire: Bloodlines had a bit of it as well, in the form of the vampire clans. Each one had exclusive content that you couldn't access unless you were one of their members. It was a character-creation choice rather than in-game, but had a decent impact on the game.

Now that was a really great game. They really need to do a sequel. And they'd better have Jack in it.

[Slyspy]

The idea of playing Oblivion, Fallout or Skyrim without mods is crazy IMO. Oblivion especially became pointless after a while. If the whole world scales up with your character then what is the point in discovering and exploring RandomDungeon#101 when all you get is a series of fights that you will win easily to be rewarded with household items and a midly enchanted ring of which you already have a dozen?

Currently running Skyrim with mods which improve stability, graphics, sounds, magic, combat, companions, potions, wildlife, lighting, kill moves, crafting, GUI and leveling as well as some adding extra content.

Did the same with Oblivion because it was just so boring without it (Oscuro's was essential in making the game interesting IMO). I also used masses of mods to do the same sort of things with Fallout, vastly improving every aspect of the game.

Edit:

Vampire was a great game. But since they never really finished it I doubt there will be a sequel!

Edit#2:

Totally agree with the ideas about end game content. If I'm head of the Companions or Mages in Skyrim then I should be a major player in the game, not just a subject for idle chatter.

[ReluctantSamurai]

RPGs that make you choose a faction, align with it and then live with your decision may be less sandboxy in that regard but they create a more believable world where choices matter and you can replay them aligned to another faction to get a different experience.

This. One of the reasons Baldur's Gate has such a continuing attraction to me is that there are consequences for everything you do. You cannot play a "goodie two-shoe" Paladin and go around killing innocents or stealing goods. You have to accept what a Paladin is and role-play it. Conversely, you will not make a good rogue/assassin type if you are constantly giving money to the needy, and go about the country-side doing good deeds. You have to watch your status like a hawk if you wish to keep all your party members happy.

So yes, in Morrowind, it would have been much better to restrict the player to non-conflicting guilds, and to open up a whole new storyline when you reach the pinnacle of any single guild.


And that's why all the mods suck. The bigger ones are in fact the worst offenders of being useless drivel.

Denial is such sweet bliss...["I can't play these games on PC, therefore the PC sucks as an RPG platform, and since I can't mod the console version, all mods are irrelevant and add nothing to the game."]

This despite the fact that virtually everyone replying to you here play on a PC and have a wonderful time doing it~:wave:

[Beskar]

You cannot play a "goodie two-shoe" Paladin and go around killing innocents or stealing goods. You have to accept what a Paladin is and role-play it. Conversely, you will not make a good rogue/assassin type if you are constantly giving money to the needy, and go about the country-side doing good deeds.

Robin Hood wants to have words with you.

[johnhughthom]

I don't remember seeing Robin Hood in Baldur's Gate?

[Beskar]

I don't remember seeing Robin Hood in Baldur's Gate?

I am saying that the RP is a possibility and citing a folklore example of a hero who did that.

[johnhughthom]

Yeah, you have to go to folklore, because you can't give a real example. Doesn't exactly strengthen your argument.

[Beskar]

Yeah, you have to go to folklore, because you can't give a real example. Doesn't exactly strengthen your argument.

Kochunni, Tadas Blinda, Eustace Folville, Juraj Jánošík, Claude Duval, Ustym Karmaliuk... there are other real life examples, but they are not as popular and universally known as Robin Hood.

[johnhughthom]

Googles 'real life Robin Hood'....

Fancy that, look at these names I found.

Disclaimer:
I'm not really this much of a knob, just love mocking Beskie.
Further disclaimer
I refuse to call him by that silly name.

[Husar]

Did anyone say real life Robin Hood? (http://pixyland.org/peterpan/)

Oh wait, that's not meant to be him. ~;)

[Fragony]

......
That's kind of a basic requirement for using most GUI based OSs today on a PC. Moving the pointer to icons and clicking them, is more or less the same as using the mouse to aim in an RPG.
Also I'm pretty sure that many people like me find it impossible to aim with a controller. Aiming with a mouse is so much more organic and intuitive.

Depends, I prefer using a controller personally and I was a hardcore pc fps gamer. It's just different, once you got a shot lined up vertically you have much more precision horizontally because of analogue control. Some people can't get used to it but I wouldn't be at a disadvantage when playing against a pc-player.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I am saying that the RP is a possibility and citing a folklore example of a hero who did that

Might work in folklore, but not in the world of D & D. Just choosing the class of Assassin or Paladin requires a choice for either evil or good...there is no multi-class Paladin-Assassin character possible (and no, Blackguard to me, is an anti-paladin...not the same).

But back to ES...didn't anyone at Bethesda ever think that to even join the Mage Guild, let alone become Archmage, you had to first be a mage? My MW characters are always fighters and every one of them has made Archmage....to my way of thinking, that's just not right:shrug:

And even though I train my characters in some of the different schools of magic mostly in order to meet Mage Guild advancement requirements, my characters have never cast a single offensive spell......

[Conradus]

Well considering you had to level up some magic abilities to gain rank in the Mages Guild I thought they did a pretty good job of forcing you to be at least a parttime mage. Not all mages are destructioncasting deathdealers. And how would you determine what made you a mage? You couldn't be a mage and fighter and thief at the same time then. Hell, I opened most locks for the thieves guild using Alteration(?).

[Beskar]

But doesn't that fall under the "gamey" territory?

Whenever I play Skyrim, I usually make Mages and do Mage things with them, I don't need ingame limits. If I am an Orc Beresker charging through the battlefield, my next thought is not "become Archmage of the Mages guild" then complain about being able to do so because I started buying tomes from vendors and leveling up my magicka abilities, even to pass rank restrictions which is meant to encourage you to basically be a mage by learning magic

There are logical restrictions in the game, like unable to be a Stormcloak and an Imperial supporter and do both questlines. But 'class' is an abstract thing defined by the player and their ability to roleplay.

[TinCow]

Yeah, I agree with Tiaexz. One of the things that has always made the ES games unique is that you are never limited in what you can do by a 'class' and very minimally by character stats. In the ES games, if you want to do something just work at it and you eventually can. Some characters will be better at some things instead of others due to race and level up choices, particularly in Skyrim with the new perk system. However all characters tend to be an amalgam of classes. When was the last time anyone played an ES game and didn't use magic a few times, use melee weapons a few times, use ranged weapons a few times, pick a few locks, and brew a bunch of potions? In any other game, your character would be restricted to one or two of those actions at most, but in ES it's rare to not do all of them. It's freedom that makes ES so special, not just freedom of movement and exploration, but also freedom of character development.

[johnhughthom]

My current Skyrim character has only used a weapon once, and it wasn't actually to attack an enemy but part of a quest. It's still listed as my favourite weapon.

[spankythehippo]

In Skyrim, I only use swords, greatswords and the bow.

The class system, in my opinion, was vastly improved in Skyrim than in Oblivion. I initially chose Dark Elf when I got Skyrim on the release day. Several weeks ago, I made a new character as a Nord. I found it incredibly difficult to use magic as a Nord in contrast to a Dark Elf. In ES games, I never play a specialised role, i.e. warrior, archer, mage etc. I mix them up so I can comfortably handle any situation the game throws at me. I have used many spells to get me out of tricky situations. I constantly use Atronachs as distractions, because my follower is severely retarded, although a great fighting partner. Stealthwise, it would be better if I just charge right in, which is what my follower does.

I have a new question.

When there is a certain glitch in the game, do you exploit it? For my Conjuration, I used that Soul Trap glitch, where if you Soul Trap a dead body you level up the skill.

My most shameless exploit was the Ebony Blade glitch. For those who don't know, the Ebony Blade is a Daedric artifact which grants life steal depending on how many friends you've killed with it. What I did was I completely leveled up my Conjuration (using the Soul Trap glitch), completely finished the College of Winterhold quests and obtained the Dead Thrall spell tome. I sold some cabbages to that Pelagia guy outside of Whiterun (for those wanting to use this glitch, I recommend the Pelagia guy. He dies anyway in the Siege of Whiterun... Spoiler alert, by the way). I then promptly killed him and his partner. I used Dead Thrall to revive him and then killed him again with the Ebony Blade. I repeated this until Mephala was satisfied and granted me the complete lifesteal potential of this sword. Do you guys think this is considered "cheating"? I don't, since I used my magic skills to level up my blade. What's wrong with that?

EDIT: Upon reflection, my most shameless glitch exploit was the Urngeir one in Riften to level up Speechcraft.

[TinCow]

When there is a certain glitch in the game, do you exploit it? For my Conjuration, I used that Soul Trap glitch, where if you Soul Trap a dead body you level up the skill.

...

What's wrong with that?

No, I don't, at least not anymore, but there's also nothing wrong with doing so. IMO, it is NEVER wrong to exploit a glitch or otherwise cheat in a single player game. You're impacting no one other than yourself, so there's nothing wrong with playing however you want to play. The only time I've done something like this is in Morrowind, where I would regularly jump up large staircases. There was something about the nature of movement in that game that made jumps while moving up staircases very, very short. So, you could rapidly bash the jump button and easily jump about 10-15 times up a short staircase and several dozen times up a large one. That enabled rapid leveling of Acrobatics, which was also a quite silly skill.

[Conradus]

Acrobatics was very usefull imo. Let you get on higher grounds and you moved faster. Not to mention the scrolls of flying. Sometimes I put my acrobatics at 200 or 500 to travel faster by taking large strides :D

[Sir Moody]

Might work in folklore, but not in the world of D & D. Just choosing the class of Assassin or Paladin requires a choice for either evil or good...there is no multi-class Paladin-Assassin character possible (and no, Blackguard to me, is an anti-paladin...not the same).

D&D has a 2 part alignment system and very few class restrictions - Robin Hood would have been a Chaotic Good Rogue (possible multi-class Ranger) - it is entirely possible to be both a Rogue and Good and isn't even hard to role-play - Robin Hood after all stole from the "Evil" rich to give to the poor - its very much easier to play the the selfish thief but that's true of all D&D - Neural and Evil characters are just easier to role-play

[TinCow]

Acrobatics was very usefull imo. Let you get on higher grounds and you moved faster. Not to mention the scrolls of flying. Sometimes I put my acrobatics at 200 or 500 to travel faster by taking large strides :D

Sure it was useful, but it was also ridiculous. Not only was it kind of odd that you could jump on top of houses, but it was also a totally absurd feature to qualify as an actual trainable skill. It was possible to go all the way to level 10 by doing nothing but standing still and jumping up and down. That's... weird.

Athletics as well was a bad skill. It increased just by running around. Combined with acrobatics, you suddenly had two skills that went up just because you were walking around the game world. You really couldn't even stop them from going up even if you wanted to. In a game where it really mattered which skills you increased on each level (to get your stat bonuses), it was a bad idea to include skills that you couldn't really prevent from increasing.

[Kralizec]

In Oblivion I would often use an exploit to raise my acrobatics, mostly for increasing the speed attribute during leveling. At the sewer exit where you first enter the outside world, there’s a wooden pier. Underneath and at the end, I would have “always move” (Q) toggled on while pressing the jump key repeatedly – because the wood above is just above your head, the jumping and landing takes zero seconds and you can jump repeatedly as fast as you could press the key.

I was quite fond of the alchemy exploit in Morrowind where you’d first use potions to boost your intelligence and then make increasingly powerful potions. I used it sparingly though, among other things for potions that made you absurdly fast to travel large distances faster.

[ReluctantSamurai]

And how would you determine what made you a mage? You couldn't be a mage and fighter and thief at the same time then.

There are mages (those who depend on their casting skills to survive); there are fighters (those who depend on their weapons to survive); and there are fighter/mages (those who use both to survive). My Morrowind characters all live and die by the point of spear and blade; magic is used only to remove status anomalies and for healing. This would place my character types in the f/m category, strictly speaking, but I certainly do not consider them to be true mages.


Robin Hood would have been a Chaotic Good Rogue (possible multi-class Ranger) - it is entirely possible to be both a Rogue and Good and isn't even hard to role-play

That's probably where I would categorize Robin Hood in the D&D system, and I'm well aware that you can role-play a rogue on the good side of things. What I am speaking to is that there are advantages and disadvantages to being either good or evil, and the system used in BG was superior, IMO, to that used in NWN, and in the Elder Scrolls. Ones alignment in BG even determined what NPC's you could use in combination with each other, and you had to keep your reputation within certain bounds to keep everyone reasonably happy. Also, some of the major fights were easier or harder depending on your alignment and party composition. In playing ES, I never have the feeling of my character having any sort of alignment, good...neutral...or evil.


Athletics as well was a bad skill. It increased just by running around. Combined with acrobatics, you suddenly had two skills that went up just because you were walking around the game world. You really couldn't even stop them from going up even if you wanted to.

Actually, you can stop both from leveling. First, I always leave those two in the misc. skill category to slow their growth. Then, when my character is strong enough to soul-trap a Golden Saint, the first thing I do is to enchant a piece of equipment with 1 pt. of Levitation (and some other effect that fills the remaining enchantment pts.), and from that point onwards neither Athletics nor Acrobatics increase except when I choose to be on solid ground. I've never had a character end up with more than 50 in either skill (and usually much lower---mid 30's to 40).

[spankythehippo]

I have another Skyrim confession to make.

In Skyrim, I am not interested in any of the marriable(?) NPCs. The only person I would marry is Olfina Gray-Mane, because she said "Can't stand the sight of a strong Nord woman?" At which point, I said "Ooooooh yeaaaaaaah". So in the Creation Kit, I made her join the Potential Follower and Potential Marriage faction. I'm not making the game easier, I'm just modifying it a bit.

Oh yeah, Eorlund saved my life on multiple occasions. I got into a fight with everyone in Whiterun, and Eorlund joined my side. I could use a father-in-law like that.

[CountArach]

Morrowind was the greatest game of all time and always will be.